WOF today - or, what have you said to us lately? [Archive]

MarkD

June 27th, 2003, 01:59 PM

Well, it's been a few hours and no nibbles on my assingments yet, eh? Admittedly, it hasn't been that long, but I really didn't expect too much anyway.

This is my theory (and it's only a theory, folks - NOT "thus saith the Lord", OK?)

What we would call the WOF'ers are people who have a keen eye for opportunity. WOF was the opportunity du juor of the 1990's. The '90s were mostly prosperous times, so I'm sure it was easy pickings.

We see a glut of quotes from the early to mid '90s and then another spike right around 2000 (that whole pesky Y2K thing, dontcha know?).

But after 2000, there is a real drop off in documented quotations. I think these people know that they are ticking off a lot of people, and there is a lot of "light" being shined around.

What I think most of these preachers are doing now is "coasting". They're not recanting what they've said (that would make them look stupid), but they are also keeping their mouths shut (for the most part).

They are waiting for the next opportunity to come along so they can ride the coattails.

What is that next opportunity? Who knows?

I think that when economic times get harder, it's going to be more difficult to push the WOF doctrine at people.

I know dominion theology has been around for awhile, but that is my leading candidate for the next big opportunity. That is just my own speculation.

While they are waiting for that next opportunity, the books and tapes keep selling. Still spewing questionable (at best) doctrine, but kind of "under the radar". See Krispy's earlier post about Benny Hinn and his "recanting".

The outlandish talk, however, is glaringly missing. You don't hear anyone talking about killing anyone with a "holy ghost machine gun" anymore, but also you don't hear anyone saying they are sorry for the things they've said in the past.

Anyway, that's just my take on this. I used to be all hot to post on the Benny Hinn threads, or other WOF threads, but not anymore. I still think they are wrong in what they are doing, but it doesn't upset me so much anymore. I still scan the threads to see if there is anything new or if someone is really being led astray, but there are many people on this board who take up that challenge.

Anyway - I still look forward to anyone who can post a response to my two assignments. I am curious as to what's out there.

chris_h

June 27th, 2003, 03:41 PM

Mark, these false prophets and false teachers should rile you up! They are preverting the Word of God, and making us true Christians look bad.

Last night, I was flipping channels, and I saw on Inspiration channel Benny Sinn. I saw him for all of half a second, and my gag reflex took over, and flipped the channel as fast as possible.

Changes

June 27th, 2003, 11:53 PM

Mr. Hinn was way too easy!!

A simple Google search provide many links such as these:

Benny Hinn
- False Prophet? (http://www.benny-hinn.net/)

Church, get ready! Saints of God get ready! We are about to be visited by the Glory of God, in an awesome way in America. -- Benny Hinn, This Is Your Day, 21 November 2001.
2001 (http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/benny_hinn_fire.htm)

Benny Hinn Set Prophetic Dates in 2003
And Both Have Failed!
(http://www.biblelight.net/benny_hinn_sets_prophetic_dates.htm)

MarkD

June 30th, 2003, 08:45 AM

So, only one response so far?

I was kind of hoping to see some evidence of repentance out there, but in my heart of hearts I really didn't expect any.

==

Chris: "Mark, these false prophets and false teachers should rile you up! They are preverting the Word of God, and making us true Christians look bad."

The false teachings and prophecies do rile me up. But it's getting to the point now where it's almost becoming pointless to argue with people over doctrinal issues. That is what is so frustrating. There are people out there who would rather go see Benny and watch some guy get knocked down 3 or 4 times in a row instead of trying to find a justification for that in the bible. :frusty

I do think it is interesting though, that there is only one response so far. That would indicate to me that the really wacko :wacko activity seems to be dying down. I think most of these preachers are riding the coattails of their previous successes until:

A) The coast is clear to start up again, or
B) Another money making approach comes their way.

We do still need to keep watch over all preachers and teachers (especially the ones on TV with the highest profiles), because we never know how the next deception is going to be presented.

Changes

June 30th, 2003, 08:54 AM

Originally posted by MarkD
So, only one response so far?

I was kind of hoping to see some evidence of repentance out there, but in my heart of hearts I really didn't expect any.

But but...I fell asleep! :P:

I was working on Copeland next....

John 3:16

June 30th, 2003, 09:45 AM

Creflo Dollar:
These are 2000 quotes
The quote is by his wife in 2000 made in his presence as an introduction:

Dollar and the Gospel
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Mar. 9, 2000

Then Dollar's wife, Taffi, introduces her husband as one who talks ''face to
face with God, like Moses.'' She warns that ''every tongue that rises up
against'' her husband will ''be struck down.''
(...)

About a half-hour into the service, an assistant pastor booms to the
congregation: ''It's opportunity for prosperity time!''

The congregants wave money-filled envelopes in the air and yell in joy as
ushers pass the white buckets down the row to collect the envelopes.

John 3:16

June 30th, 2003, 09:58 AM

I should have gone straight to the source first!:rolleyes
Here are some 2003 quotes from Creflo Dollar from his own website:

Many people believe that salvation just involves the born-again experience, but there's more to it than that.

The Greek word for salvation is soteria, which means "safety, deliverance, protection, soundness, preservation, health and prosperity." Salvation is a state of wholeness in spirit, soul and body, where nothing is missing or broken. It is completeness in every area of your life.

You entered the first phase of salvation by confessing the lordship of Jesus over your life. Once you accept Him as Lord and Savior, you must maintain your salvation through the daily confession, meditation and application of God's Word.

When you lay aside your personal agenda and desires in favor of obedience to the statutes outlined in God's Word, you're letting Him know that He has complete control over your life. Only then can God begin to bring you into His perfect will, which is total life prosperity-prosperity in every area of life

:twitch

John 3:16

June 30th, 2003, 10:10 AM

Rod Parsley:
These are from the year 200
What the word of God is clearly saying restitution or restoration precedes the return of Jesus Christ and since spiritually we know Jesus is coming soon how much closer the restoration of all things must be.”... “We are about to see the supernatural blessings of God poured out on his Church without measure… to see your health restored, your finances restored your freedom restored and every form of demonic attack destroyed through the anointing.” (Restoration the sign of his coming Breakthrough, 2000)

What do our planets do around the sun? (Audience: revolve!). Which is the root of revolution. C'mon now watch me the closer you get to the sun the stronger the gravitational pull, the closest planet to our sun mercury the Greek symbol with winged feet why? It was the fastest of all the planets, it is the hottest of all the planets. It emits the most energy of all the planets. God has saved the best for last and you happen to be it” (Breakthrough Jan.7, 2000).

I think I've about had enough for the day!:nono

John 3:16

June 30th, 2003, 10:23 AM

I just noticed you said AFTER 2000, MarkD, so here is another from Rod Parsley from his own website announcing a camp meeting 2003:

It is the tangible transfer of God's miracle anointing, and it is available to you today. I want you to click here so we may place a prayer cloth for you here on the altar of World Harvest Church to rest under the anointing at our Old-Fashioned Miracle, Healing, and Deliverance Service right in the middle of Dominion 2003 Camp Meeting on, July 3.

Then when I send it back to you after camp meeting, I believe it will become your point of contact to receive the anointing that can begin a miracle in YOUR life.

MarkD

June 30th, 2003, 10:31 AM

Hey John 3:16, good to see ya!

While the Parsley and Dollar quotes are "good" (in a bad sort of way), they are from 2000. I'm looking for 2001-2003.

I do like the Dollar website info, though. But this just goes along with the theory. (I admit, though, that I was unaware that salvation came in "phases". I must be one of those stupid types that thought you were either saved or not).

The books and tapes are still out there (and also, apparently, the websites) with no refutation, but the verbal quotes seem to be drying up.

===========

John 3:16, I just saw your post while previewing my own. Thanks for the update on Parsley's site.

John 3:16

June 30th, 2003, 11:08 AM

The Dollar and Parsley quotes are 2001-2003 and here is one on Marilyn Hickey:

This amazing offer was made to potential Faith Covenant Partners in Outpouring, Special Edition 2001 and has been repeated since then.

"God put it in my heart to call Oral Roberts and his son Richard to ask them if they would join Sarah and me to form a 'next-generation' prayer circle of faith, believing God for Him to place a 'miracle-overflow Next Generation anointing' on some oil."

"During a particularly powerful prayer time, we fervently laid our hands on some SPECIAL anointing oil...and together, we released our faith for God to impart a MIRACLE-OVERFLOW Next Generation Anointing upon that oil. Now we want to pass it along to YOU, your children, and your grandchildren...as we invite you to become Faith Covenant Partners with us and this ministry of 'Covering the Earth with the Word.'"

"We've taken this oil and blended and prepared it for you to carry with you in a beautiful, gold- colored metal locket..allowing you to bring a MIRACLE-OVERFLOW Next Generation Anointing to everyone you touch...whenever and wherever the need arises." "When you become PARTNERS with a ministry, you ACTIVATE A POWERFUL SPIRITUAL PRINCIPLE in your life: the same power of God that is available to that ministry...becomes available to YOU!...You can literally walk in the same anointing they walk in!"

Let me go back and see specifically, what you are looking for MarkD. You don't want quotes from books but speaking (tv, radio, personal appearances) from 2001-2003- is that correct?

MarkD

June 30th, 2003, 12:30 PM

"Let me go back and see specifically, what you are looking for MarkD. You don't want quotes from books but speaking (tv, radio, personal appearances) from 2001-2003- is that correct?"

This is correct.

onelamb

June 30th, 2003, 05:10 PM

You have made this assignment too hard. Not because there isn't information available but because....as for me, I don't like to go on a "heresy hunt"-for if you look-you can find quotes by every Christian leader that sounds like they were really.....out......in........left......field.
So that means, I believe we should listen for ourselves and make sure we know, how it was said, and if the quote is in context......but then, that means I have to listen for myself and the idea of sitting and listening to some of those guys is just too much. My spirit starts to churn, and the Holy Spirit tells me to CHANGE THE CHANNEL.

HTOR87

July 1st, 2003, 10:11 AM

These quotes are from 2003 and I found them on Kenneth Copelands website (http://www.kcm.org/studycenter/articles/health_healing/standing_against_sars.html).

Sounds like if you get sick or have a disease then you aren't living under the blessing's or covanent of God. Ironic considering that a Christian women is one of the people responsible for the recent outbreak of SARS.

If you want to pray that you don't become infected with a disease or virus, great. But don't believe that the Lord has abbandoned you cause you get sick. Drive me crazy when people fail to realize that everything is done for God's glory. Sometimes things we don't understand happen for a reason (including sickness). No matter how tragic they may seem to us.

A Word From the Lord

...No cancer can overcome Me saith the Lord. No virus such as SARS can overcome Me and My love. Fear NOT! Believe only! And those dreaded diseases and viruses will not be able to take up residence in your body which is the temple of the Holy Ghost. Fear NOT!...
—Kenneth Copeland,
Philadelphia Victory Campaign,
April 26, 2003

Surrounded by God's Protection
In Deuteronomy 28:15-68, after listing the blessings to those that hear and obey the voice of the Lord, the Bible lists the curses that come against those who live outside of covenant with God.

As believers, we understand these effects of the law of sin and death as things from which we have been redeemed, because as Galatians 3:13 tells us, "Christ purchased our freedom [redeeming us] from the curse (doom) of the Law [and its condemnation] by [Himself] becoming a
curse for us..." (The Amplified Bible).

Things from which the believer is redeemed include "extraordinary strokes and blows, great plagues of long continuance, and grievous sicknesses of long duration...all the diseases of Egypt" (Deuteronomy 28:59-60, The Amplified Bible).

But the list does not stop with what is named here and in the rest of this book. In verse 61, we
see we are to include "every sickness and every affliction which is not written in this Book of the Law" (The Amplified Bible).

That is where I would put the recent outbreak of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS). It's not listed by name in this chapter, but it's certainly included under "every sickness and every affliction which is not written in this Book of the Law."

I love God! He does not give the devil any place, and He tells you not to give the devil any
foothold. That's exactly the way God operates.

In verses 15-57 we are given a list of nearly every type of disease and attack we could imagine
under the curse of sin and death. But here God includes anything else the devil could come up
with. If you don't know where else to look, you can turn to verse 61 and know that you've been
redeemed from that curse too! If it's a sickness, Jesus bore it.

And there's more. Verses 65-66 add that you have been delivered from the curse of "you shall
find no ease and there shall be no rest for the sole of your foot...day and night you shall be
worried, and have no assurance of your life" (The Amplified Bible).

You have been delivered from worry and fear and given peace. The Hebrew word for peace
means "nothing missing, nothing broken, everything intact, everything all right." All of that belongs
to you.

Worry day and night, no assurance of your life, fear—it's all under the curse. But you've been
redeemed from the curse. And not by any small measure, either.
Jesus took the whole curse.
And He took it for you.
Hallelujah!
—Gloria Copeland,
Healing School,
Philadelphia Victory Campaign,
April 26, 2003

Don't Catch It—DROP IT!
I saw this in the spirit....You see people walking up and down the street with those little masks
tied around their faces. Well, I've got one tied around me from the top of my head to the soles of
my feet!

I've had people say this about me: "He just walks around in a bubble."

Oh, yeah! I wake up in a new world every day. The Bible says His mercies are new every
morning!

In 1957, while I was serving in the United States Army, I went into the hospital at Ft. Gordon,
Georgia, over a little thing that didn't amount to anything. When I went in, the hospital had about 55 patients. Twenty-four hours later, there were more than 500 patients with that original flood of
Hong Kong flu that hit this country.

At that time I wasn't even born again, so I just thought you had to just go along until you got the
flu, then try to get rid of it the best you could.

But when this thing came on shore again, more than 20 years later, I had found a better way to
live. At the time all you were hearing on television was, "Oh, you've got to get the shots. You've got to get the shots."

When I called the family in and said, "We're going to take our flu shots" John's little eyes became
big as platters. Then I said, "Get your Bibles." And the children quickly caught on that we were
going to take a Word of God shot—not one by a needle.

We gathered around the living room table on our knees, read the Scripture, took communion, and
stood against the flu, saying, "We plead the Blood of Jesus, and we encapsulate ourselves in the
Blood of the Lamb, hallelujah! We'll not have this stuff. It doesn't come from heaven. It's not ours,
praise the Lord! Amen."

A couple of weeks ago, we did the same thing. The media was filled once again with reports
trying to sell the flu, so we called the whole family together and took our Word of God shot again. The family is a whole lot bigger now, but we are still not in favor of having the flu!

You may be tempted to say, "I believe I'm catching it." Don't do it! That would be the dumbest thing
you ever did. Don't catch it. Drop it. Don't catch sickness. Catch healing!

If there is any sickness in you, rebuke it right now and tell it to get out of you. Your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost. No sickness or disease can live in you now.

Get serious about this gospel we preach. This is not some little Sunday afternoon thing. This is
eternal.
—Kenneth Copeland,
Philadelphia Victory Campaign
April 25, 2003

MarkD

July 1st, 2003, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by onelamb
You have made this assignment too hard. Not because there isn't information available but because....as for me, I don't like to go on a "heresy hunt"-for if you look-you can find quotes by every Christian leader that sounds like they were really.....out......in........left......field.
So that means, I believe we should listen for ourselves and make sure we know, how it was said, and if the quote is in context......but then, that means I have to listen for myself and the idea of sitting and listening to some of those guys is just too much. My spirit starts to churn, and the Holy Spirit tells me to CHANGE THE CHANNEL.

Onelamb,

No, I am not asking anyone to go on a "heresy hunt". I am just trying to make a point that it did appear (to me, anyway) that there was an overabundance of quotations that seemed to flow quite freely from the mouths of prosperity teachers during the early to mid 1990's. My theory was that they now seem to be keeping their mouths shut, at least while on TV or radio. However, see below.

====

HTOR87,

That's an interesting post regarding Copeland. It would appear that Ken & Gloria are still at it.

Patty T

July 1st, 2003, 10:26 AM

What is wrong with taking a stand against sickness and disease and pleading the blood of Jesus over our lives? Especially when the word says He took all our sins and diseases upon Himself on the cross and that by His stripes we are healed?

When Jesus paid the price for us, He paid the whole bill - salvation, deliverance, healing, everything! It was because of what Jesus bore on that cross that the Father had to look away. I can't wait to thank Jesus personally for the high price He paid for me.

Patty

MarkD

July 1st, 2003, 12:31 PM

By Patty T:
"What is wrong with taking a stand against sickness and disease and pleading the blood of Jesus over our lives? Especially when the word says He took all our sins and diseases upon Himself on the cross and that by His stripes we are healed?"

Patty,
Just to let you know, I do plead the blood of Jesus over myself and my family every day. I have personally witnessed miraculous healings. I have also personally witnessed very strong christians die from cancer.

However, take a look at the following statement by Mr. Copeland:

"If there is any sickness in you, rebuke it right now and tell it to get out of you. Your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost. No sickness or disease can live in you now."

Patty,
Do you agree with it completely?

Would you tell this to a christian who has AIDS? Would you think less of him/her if they did take your advice and still were not healed?

Note the last statement in that quote:

"No sickness or disease can live in you now."

Is this a true statement?

KrispyKritter

July 1st, 2003, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by onelamb
You have made this assignment too hard. Not because there isn't information available but because....as for me, I don't like to go on a "heresy hunt"

Sooo, OneLamb... I guess we should just cut out this verse I'm writing below??

Romans 16:17 "Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them."

Ponderin

July 1st, 2003, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Sooo, OneLamb... I guess we should just cut out this verse I'm writing below??

Romans 16:17 "Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them."

No Sir! Then we would be like the marble rollers.

Those verses are still in my bibles. I checked.

Romans 16 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=ROM%2B16&showfn=on&showxref=on&language=english&version=NASB&x=8&y=15)

Cross Reference (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1+Tim+1:3;+6:3&language=english&version=NASB)

1 Timothy 1
3 As I urged you upon my departure for (1) Macedonia, remain on at (2) Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to (3) teach strange doctrines,

Show cross-references

Rom 15:26 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Rom+15:26&language=english&version=NASB)
Acts 18:19 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Acts+18:19&language=english&version=NASB)
Rom 16:17; 2 Cor 11:4; Gal 1:6f; 1 Tim 6:3 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Rom+16:17;+2+Cor+11:4;+Gal+1:6f;+1+Tim+6:3&language=english&version=NASB)

1 Timothy 6
3 If anyone (1) advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with (2) sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine (3) conforming to godliness,

Show cross-references

1 Tim 1:3 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1+Tim+1:3&language=english&version=NASB)
1 Tim 1:10 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1+Tim+1:10&language=english&version=NASB)
Titus 1:1 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Titus+1:1&language=english&version=NASB)

HTOR87

July 1st, 2003, 01:18 PM

KrispyKritter

July 1st, 2003, 01:35 PM

Good post Heidi :thumb

Patty T

July 1st, 2003, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by MarkD
Patty,
Just to let you know, I do plead the blood of Jesus over myself and my family every day. I have personally witnessed miraculous healings. I have also personally witnessed very strong christians die from cancer.

However, take a look at the following statement by Mr. Copeland:

"If there is any sickness in you, rebuke it right now and tell it to get out of you. Your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost. No sickness or disease can live in you now."

Patty,
Do you agree with it completely?

Would you tell this to a christian who has AIDS? Would you think less of him/her if they did take your advice and still were not healed?

Note the last statement in that quote:

"No sickness or disease can live in you now."

Is this a true statement?

Hi MarkD!

I know the word says that by Jesus' stripes we are healed and I also know that Paul asked God 3 times to remove a thorn from his flesh. God said "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness (2 Corin 12:7-9).

Paul said he took pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. Paul had a faith that I don't think I've ever witnessed here on earth today. Paul also had an incredible salvation experience with the audible voice of Jesus.

My point is while I believe that Christ paid the price for us completely on the cross - I also know that sometimes God allows situations; maybe like Paul's thorn, for His Glory. But I would never tell anyone they were not healed because they did not have enough faith.

I have heard Brother Copeland numerous times. I believe he teaches and preaches the Jesus I know and love. Do I agree with everything? No, but then I don't agree 100% with anyone (just ask my friend Krispy)! Someday we'll have all the answers and revelation. I believe that Brother Copeland will be joining us at the wedding.

God Bless brother Mark!

Patty

KrispyKritter

July 1st, 2003, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by Patty T
I have heard Brother Copeland numerous times. I believe he teaches and preaches the Jesus I know and love.

:spit ... I choked on my water when I read that..!! Ooops!

If you're gonna write about Copeland, let me affix my mask first... eerrrr ugh... :pk ...there... go ahead now, Patty!

(you know I'm just :boink 'ing you, right?)

Patty T

July 1st, 2003, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
:spit ... I choked on my water when I read that..!! Ooops!

If you're gonna write about Copeland, let me affix my mask first... eerrrr ugh... :pk ...there... go ahead now, Patty!

(you know I'm just :boink 'ing you, right?)

I know Krispy, I know:thumb

Sorry about the water choking you though - next time I'll try to give advance notice :director

I've never used the director guy before - hope it comes across right:):

Patty

HTOR87

July 2nd, 2003, 04:24 PM

Read this one and let me know what you think. Cause to me it just doesn't sound right. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I always assumed that we were to tithe because that is something that God has ordered us to do. That we should do it out of obedience and faith not cause we want something in return. Yes God does "reward" our obedience and faith, but I didn't realize that we had to "buy" our reward. It would seem that we are truly giving to bless, but to get something in return. Doesn't that totally destroy the whole concept behind giving?

I didn't realize that if I wanted something then all i had to was give some money to some ministry then ask for it and it would be granted to me.

This is from Paul Crouch's February 2003 newsletter. LINK (http://www.tbn.org/about/newsletter/index.php/art:73) Sounds like he was getting nervous that people would stop sending him money.

ONWARD CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS!
"BLESSED BE THE LORD MY STRENGTH,WHICH TEACHETH MY HANDS TO WAR, AND MY FINGERS TO FIGHT…" (Psalms 144:1)

"HE TEACHETH MY HANDS TO WAR, SO THAT A BOW OF STEEL IS BROKEN IN MINE ARMS…" (Psalms 18:34)

I have a word of blessing, a word of admonition, and a word of rebuke to many in the body of Christ today! You had better buckle-up because some are going to love this word and some are going to hate it! But before we are done, hell will be thrown into further disarray and satan will be exposed for the filthy liar that he is!

HAVE I GOTTEN YOUR ATTENTION?

First of all, we do not sing, "Onward Christian
Soldiers," like we used to! Much of the church
has succumbed to a watered-down, politically
correct gospel that makes it little more than a
social club. Read our text again — "HE TEACHES [OUR HANDS] TO WAR!" Hey, Christians — Moslems believed in "their faith" so strongly they were willing to fly suicide missions into the World Trade Centers! Much of "our church" was either sitting in air-conditioned buildings on padded pews, singing "Hold the Fort," or dissipating most of their spiritual energy dancing in the aisles!

Wow — I told you this was going to be a strong
word, so hear me out. Hey, again! If the shoe
fits…you know!

There is a verse in "Onward Christian Soldiers,"
that gives us the answer to our problem IF we
will hear it—
WE ARE NOT DIVIDED,
ALL ONE BODY WE,
ONE IN HOPE AND DOCTRINE,
ONE IN CHARITY [LOVE].

Is this verse just wishful thinking, or will we
finally see it fulfilled?

A few years ago, we got a shock treatment from
John Avanzini. He opened his message with a
word that stunned us! He said: "I will show you
something more powerful than the Word of God." For a moment I thought, "John has lost it! Maybe I should go yank the mike out of his hand and change the order of the service?" But he quickly took us to the words of Jesus himself who said:
"YE MAKE THE WORD OF GOD OF NONE EFFECT THROUGH YOUR TRADITION, WHICH YE HAVE DELIVERED, AND MANY
SUCH LIKE THINGS DO YE." Mark 7:13

Merciful God! If this was true of Jesus' day, how much more today with over 400 Christian denominations, most of which have some unique TRADITION designed to hold their little flock together and to keep them from wandering off to another church or denomination! One example blows my mind!

Believe it or not — there are still some churches that teach it is a sin to have a television set — but now with the advent of computers it is okay to have a "MONITOR SCREEN" which has access to multitudes of TV stations, plus access to every kind of moral filth known to mankind! Talk about
"TRADITIONS" that make void the Word of God!
Christian TV is winning more souls today than
any other force in the Kingdom of God!

But the one that really got my goat (pardon the
"Missouri" in me), was a dear brother on Praise
the Lord a few weeks ago. Yes, on OUR TBN! I was down in Florida and the program was on tape. If it had been "LIVE" I would have called the engineer to take it OFF THE AIR!

This "dear brother" was waxing eloquent on the
"error" of giving to God, expecting ANYTHING in
return! In about 15 minutes, he totally trashed
everything Oral Roberts has taught us on "Seed Faith" for over 40 years! The great messages by R.W. Schambach, John Avanzini, Dad Hagin, Benny Hinn, John Hagee, Rod Parsley, T.D. Jakes, and a host of others, flushed right down the drain!

I will not judge the brother, but the Apostle Paul
commands us to judge the message! I sat in
stunned silence as truth after truth we have
rejoiced in and proved to be true was stematically twisted to meet HIS TRADITION! I have spoken and written to you many times about the Word of God that came to me as I sought Him on this issue. My question was simple — "Dear Lord, can we bring a gift to you, with a need in our life, fully expecting you to meet that need? God answered me with a word into my spirit as clearly as I have ever heard it — He said: "Son, did I give my only son to die on the Cross, EXPECTING NOTHING IN RETURN?"

Ah, don't you see it? God had a need — He had
lost His first son, Adam. He needed sons and
daughters. So what did God do? He GAVE the very thing He needed — His only begotten Son, the best gift heaven could give! What did God receive? Yes, we know — billions of sons and daughters! God lives by His own law — you GIVE if you expect to RECEIVE! I hope my dear brother reads this, and I wish I had time here to tell of how Solomon brought God the biggest offering ever in the face of his biggest need. Have the heretic hunters never read the next verse as God appeared to Solomon that very night and said: "Ask me for anything and I will give it to you!" II Chron 1:7 TLB Have they never read of Abraham who, after
giving to Melchizedek, in the next verse asks
God, "Now what will you give me?" God answered him and gave him that son, a few million acres of real estate, and great wealth of animals, silver, and gold (Gen. 13-15)!

How about King David who cried to God to heal his nation of an awful plague? He offered the
Lord burnt offerings and peace offerings and the Word records, "THE LORD ANSWERED HIS PRAYER AND THE PLAGUE WAS STOPPED" (II Sam. 24:25 TLB).
Dear Father, I could give you story after story
from Jeptha, King Hezekiah, Samuel, even Jesus Himself who said, "If you give, you will get" (Luke 6:38 TLB)! And one final thought here: The only one who went away from Jesus in sorrow was the "rich young ruler" who refused to give what Jesus had asked (Mark 10:22).

So why do the heretic hunters and other critics
trash the "seed faith" message? I'll tell you why
— and here is the bottom-line for this whole
letter. They are either ignorant of the Word, or
bound by their traditions, OR — and this is
frightening — some are, I believe, of their
father the devil! "Strong words, Paul" — yes, but
here is satan's most cherished strategy. He
knows that if he can keep this great truth on
giving and receiving, sowing and reaping, seed
faith, and taking the wealth of the world — HE
HAS WON!

Satan does not care if you sing and shout,dance in the aisle, and speak in Tongues! He loves dead, social club churches most — "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof…" (II Tim. 3:5)

But when the body of Christ takes hold of these
principles and laws of God that can TRANSFER
THE WEALTH OF THIS WORLD into the hands of those who will USE IT to win the lost and do great damage to his kingdom — LOOK OUT! "KATIE, BAR THE DOOR!" He is aroused and will come at us with everything he has! He will inspire the heretic hunters to use THEIR TRADITIONS to keep us poor, sick, discouraged, and deceived!

So dear CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS — the mask is OFF. We see clearly the subtle deceptive tactics of the evil one! Let's keep taking the wealth of the world — let's keep building TV stations, new networks, more satellites, the Internet, and more!

How about one last nail in the coffin of the
heretic hunters—
"IT IS POSSIBLE TO GIVE AWAY AND BECOME RICHER!
IT IS ALSO POSSIBLE TO HOLD ON TOO TIGHTLY AND LOSE EVERYTHING. YES, THE LIBERAL MAN SHALL BE RICH! BY WATERING OTHERS HE WATERS HIMSELF." Prov. 11:24-25 TLB
Praise God! I believe the true body of Christ is
ONE! God is truly "Teaching our hands" for
spiritual warfare! If you will let it, this little
message to you from my heart will give you one
more awesome weapon. Give God a gift, expecting him to meet that impossible need! ONWARD CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS!

So does this sound right to you guys?:confused

KrispyKritter

July 2nd, 2003, 04:36 PM

Oh gosh... I think it's all pretty obvious. Paul Crouch is notorious for spiritually "threatening" other Christians who would hold him accountable to the scriptures. Maybe if he would teach sound doctrine then perhaps us "heresy hunters" would leave him alone. It's rather obvious that if someone is constantly called a heretic that there could be a good chance that he is!!

In this letter he is attempting to manipulate his followers into not questioning him or his teachings. Paul (the apostle!) commended the Bereans for testing everything he taught them, and weighing it against scripture. Isnt that a stark contrast?

Anyone who is teaching sound Biblical doctrine will have no problem with people who test it to see if it's true.

Crouch is treating on real thin ice calling other believers "sons of the devil".

....and I love how he would censor someone who is teaching the truth about giving!

Crouch is crack-pot.

John 3:16

July 2nd, 2003, 04:36 PM

No!:puke

dusty

July 2nd, 2003, 06:23 PM

Prove all things, hold fast to that which is good. Proving is trashing...:confused

So why do the heretic hunters and other critics
trash the "seed faith" message?
What comes to mind is...

1Ti 6:5
Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

But...

1Ti 6:6
...godliness with contentment is great gain.

:nod

billiefan2000

November 8th, 2003, 04:32 PM

bump

onsolidrock

November 9th, 2003, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by Patty T
What is wrong with taking a stand against sickness and disease and pleading the blood of Jesus over our lives? Especially when the word says He took all our sins and diseases upon Himself on the cross and that by His stripes we are healed?

When Jesus paid the price for us, He paid the whole bill - salvation, deliverance, healing, everything! It was because of what Jesus bore on that cross that the Father had to look away. I can't wait to thank Jesus personally for the high price He paid for me.

Patty

ISA 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the [b]sin \/b]of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Just where do you see physical healing here? or diseases or sickness?

If physical healing were a part of the atonement then we would be either

1. never sick

or

2. When we ask for healing we would be instantly healed of all and every sickness!!!!!

It doesn't happen. Jesus died for our sins not for our sicknesses. That idea is false teaching pure and simple. I'm sorry if that hurts, but sometimes the truth does.

toddlemom

November 10th, 2003, 08:55 AM

... because one of hte most Godly women I know has had cancer re-occur. She has been fighting it for 7 or 8 years. :cry

onsolidrock

November 11th, 2003, 05:21 AM

Originally posted by toddlemom
... because one of hte most Godly women I know has had cancer re-occur. She has been fighting it for 7 or 8 years. :cry

It is situations like this that make me wish that physical healing actually was part of Jesus Atonement.

Remember that if God does take her home through cancer, she will be with Jesus. Might that be the best thing for her?

Teresa

November 11th, 2003, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by Patty T
What is wrong with taking a stand against sickness and disease and pleading the blood of Jesus over our lives? Especially when the word says He took all our sins and diseases upon Himself on the cross and that by His stripes we are healed?

When Jesus paid the price for us, He paid the whole bill - salvation, deliverance, healing, everything! It was because of what Jesus bore on that cross that the Father had to look away. I can't wait to thank Jesus personally for the high price He paid for me.

Patty \

I wanted to address this passage of Isaiah 53:5, since it is the favorite scripture of the wof healing teachers (i.e. Benny Hinn). I used to believe that by his stripes we are healed did mean physical healing. I have come to know the truth of the scripture and would like to share what I have learned.

O.K. I am quoting directly from my KJV study bible.

Isaiah 53:5 says: But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Alright it says he was wounded [or "pierced through"] for our trangressions (sins). The verb bruised translate daka', meaning "to be utterly crushed." Our iniquities ('awon) means moral "evils." Chastisiment [musar, "correction" or "discipline"] of our peace refers to that which procured our peace with God. With his stripes (or "wounds") we are healed (rapa, to mend or cure) refers to our spiritual condition being made whole. In Isaiah the term is always used of spiritual healing and forgiveness.

I wish I had my Hank Hanegraaff book here because he explains it very well. What I can remember him saying on this verse of scripture was that if it was true that not only did Jesus die on the cross for our sins but also for our physical healing then whoever did not get healed would not be saved. Why? Because if Jesus paid for the whole thing on the cross and I was saved spiritually but say had some kind of sickness then how could I be saved. I would be going to hell because I did not recieve my healing like I recieved my free gift of Salvation.

Now I do believe that Jesus does heal us. However Isaiah 53:5 is not about physical healing it is about spiritual healing. That is what the wof does. It takes scripture out of context and twist it to mean something that it does not. I could go through and debunk many, many scriptures that do not mean what the wof says it does.

rs41

November 11th, 2003, 10:47 AM

MarkD

November 11th, 2003, 02:36 PM

Wow!

I thought this thread had died off, but apparently it was only on a four month hiatus.

Billie, whatever possessed you to dredge this one up from so long ago?

Toddlemom,
I am so very sorry to hear about your friend. I'll say some prayers for her.

Onsolidrock,
I'm with you - if only obtaining healing were that simple.

Teresa,
Good post on Isaiah 53:5

rs41,
No one is advocating hanging anyone. Nor is there any mention of inflicting bodily harm on any persons or organizations.

This thread did kind of "morph" (as threads are known to do from time to time ;): ) from its original intent, but the verses brought up by Krispy and others (concerning doctrinal issues) are pertinent nonetheless.

When we are dealing with doctrinal positions within christianity (and the world, for that matter) there are two extremes that we can go to. Following are two humorous examples of each extreme.

The extremely judgemental:
http://www.theophilus.org/onetrue/narrow.html

And the extremely non-judgemental:
http://www.theologyonline.com/newgod/

We, as christians, need to be biblical.

We cannot be so judgemental as to lose our christian love for each other, but on the other hand, we cannot be so accepting of everyone and everything as to lose focus on the core doctrines of our faith.

Geoff274544

November 11th, 2003, 09:32 PM

How is the Copeland ministries still running????? Just about everyone hates the man. I even know people who are fan's of Benny Hinn and dislike Copeland

pantha_luvr

November 11th, 2003, 09:36 PM

You have all made some good points. I, too, am amazed at some of the things I see and hear from many of these people. I do not think, however, it is only to be found in the WOF movement. (Although there is plenty of it there for the taking).
I have watched, over the years, many of these ministries....some even in our main-line denominations, use "merchandising" for the glory of God.
Jesus First Pins....get a gold one if you give $100.00.
Personally signed bibles....(of course now, they all offer their very own personalized study bible...complete with their notes).
Monthly partners....give, and get some "perks" from the head of whatever ministry we are talking about.
And now, the websites...hawking all their latest books and cd's...if you have the money to give, it is all available.

Sure is a far cry from Martin Luther nailing his ninety-five theses to the door of the church. (He did it for free)

I am sure glad our Saviour didn't use such tactics. He simply walked this earth, telling people what His Father wanted them to know. He didn't take offerings...He gave to people. The blind man, maniac, palsied man, woman at the well, Lazarus, the thief on the cross...none had to become "partners" to receive from Him.

I would challenge any of these "great" preachers of our day to do the following. Go into their prayer closet, shut the door, ask God to meet their financial needs of their ministry...and, if God did not provide...PULL THE PLUG!!!!!

Don't guess that will ever happen.....that would require real FAITH!!!

Aaaahhhhh, I feel better....LOL.

Livin4Jesus

November 12th, 2003, 12:33 AM

Originally posted by onsolidrock
Just where do you see physical healing here? or diseases or sickness?

If physical healing were a part of the atonement then we would be either

1. never sick

or

2. When we ask for healing we would be instantly healed of all and every sickness!!!!!

It doesn't happen. Jesus died for our sins not for our sicknesses. That idea is false teaching pure and simple. I'm sorry if that hurts, but sometimes the truth does.

OH MY GOODNESS!! WHERE DO I BEGIN???

First of all, take a closer look at Isaiah 53:4. Use your concordance! In Hebrew the word "griefs" is translated as "sicknesses" and the word "sorrows" is translated as "pains-both physical and mental". Matthew 8:17 acknowledges this when it refers to Isaiah 53:4: "That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying Himself took our INFIRMITIES, and bore our SICKNESSES." So yes, very definitely Christ's atonement pays the price for our healing. Study these scriptures--there is just no way to get around the fact that healing is part of the atonement. I have yet to meet anyone who can refute that these verses are telling us that healing is part of His redemption. And if healing is part of the atonement, then God NEVER makes exceptions! To say that He does is like calling Him a liar! He always honors His Word and the problem is never with Him. What kind of a Father would makes His children promises and then go back on them all the time simply because He's God and can do whatever He wants to? If God meant for there to be exceptions, He would have told us so! And Paul's thorn was not a sickness!!! It was exactly what he said it was--a messenger of Satan that stirred up persecution everywhere he went.

As to the rest...when you became saved, did sin just immediately and automatically cease? Of course not and it is the same thing with sickness. Victory over sin and sickness was given to us in the spiritual realm the moment we became born again, but we must do our part to pull these provisions into the physical realm. Sin will not be conquered automatically in our bodies and neither will sickness. And, in case you were not aware, many, many, many people are instantly and totally healed from sickness when they are ministered to. The problem is that most Christians today do not know how to minister healing in a very effective manner. Jesus said that we are to continue to fulfill the Great Commission and that we would do greater works than He, but the Church has become so complacent and weak that people are dying left and right all around us. Ministering healing and walking in our FULL redemption is a process. And there are people all over the world who have learned how to minister to the sick and are training ordinary Christians to do the same thing. I happen to be going to one of those training sessions in a few days. I am no longer content with being a hearer--I will be a doer!

I could go on and on and on about how the correlation between being forgiven and healed is clearly and definitively taught by Jesus Himself in the Word. Jesus said that there was no difference between saying "Your sins are forgiven" and "Rise, take up your bed and walk". They are the same thing. I heard it put this way one day and this is so true: Sickness and sin are two fruits from the same tree.

Livin4Jesus

November 12th, 2003, 12:44 AM

Originally posted by Teresa
\

I wanted to address this passage of Isaiah 53:5, since it is the favorite scripture of the wof healing teachers (i.e. Benny Hinn). I used to believe that by his stripes we are healed did mean physical healing. I have come to know the truth of the scripture and would like to share what I have learned.

O.K. I am quoting directly from my KJV study bible.

Isaiah 53:5 says: But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Alright it says he was wounded [or "pierced through"] for our trangressions (sins). The verb bruised translate daka', meaning "to be utterly crushed." Our iniquities ('awon) means moral "evils." Chastisiment [musar, "correction" or "discipline"] of our peace refers to that which procured our peace with God. With his stripes (or "wounds") we are healed (rapa, to mend or cure) refers to our spiritual condition being made whole. In Isaiah the term is always used of spiritual healing and forgiveness.

I wish I had my Hank Hanegraaff book here because he explains it very well. What I can remember him saying on this verse of scripture was that if it was true that not only did Jesus die on the cross for our sins but also for our physical healing then whoever did not get healed would not be saved. Why? Because if Jesus paid for the whole thing on the cross and I was saved spiritually but say had some kind of sickness then how could I be saved. I would be going to hell because I did not recieve my healing like I recieved my free gift of Salvation.

Now I do believe that Jesus does heal us. However Isaiah 53:5 is not about physical healing it is about spiritual healing. That is what the wof does. It takes scripture out of context and twist it to mean something that it does not. I could go through and debunk many, many scriptures that do not mean what the wof says it does.

Teresa,

Please see my post on Isaiah 53:4 and use your concordance. Then look at Matthew 8:17. If healing is not provided in Isaiah 53:4, then please tell me how Matthew 8:17 can quote Isaiah 53:4 by saying that Jesus healed people PHYSICALLY in order "That it might be fulfilled by Isaiah, the prophet, saying He Himself took our INFIRMITIES, and bore our SICKNESSES." I know that this message is not always popular, but what is popular is not always right or scriptural. God is never the problem. He's already done it. This is supposed to be good news!

Can anyone please, sticking strictly to Isaiah 53:4 and Matthew 8:17 explain to me how physical healing is not provided for in the atonement? I don't want to hear examples and experiences of people who were prayed for and died anyway or other theories, etc., just please stick to the Word here. I don't see how there is any way that you can reason these two verses away. It is air tight, as far as I'm concerned.

onsolidrock

November 12th, 2003, 10:23 AM

OH MY GOODNESS!! WHERE DO I BEGIN???

Might I suggest that you begin with "rightly dividing the word of truth"

First of all, take a closer look at Isaiah 53:4. Use your concordance! In Hebrew the word "griefs" is translated as "sicknesses" and the word "sorrows" is translated as "pains-both physical and mental".

What cordance are you using? My concordance [Strong's] says; Griefs means malady, anxiety, calamity Sorrows means anquish or affliction Although these two words could be referring to sickness that is not definite as you imply. Also notice that the word borne means to lift, as in lift up.

Don't forget verse 5; [ISA 53:5] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
What was he wounded for? transgressions What was he bruised for? iniquities. Does it say that we are healed from sickness? No.

Matthew 8:17 acknowledges this when it refers to Isaiah 53:4: "That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying Himself took our INFIRMITIES, and bore our SICKNESSES."

Robertson's Word Pictures
Bastazw occurs freely in the papyri with the sense of lift, carry, endure, carry away (the commonest meaning, Moulton and Milligan, Vocabulary), pilfer. In Matthew 3:11 we have the common vernacular use to take off sandals. The Attic Greek did not use it in the sense of carrying off.
"The passage, as Mt. employs it, has no bearing on the doctrine of the atonement."
But Jesus does show his sympathy with us. "Christ's sympathy with the sufferers was so intense that he really felt their weaknesses and pains." In our burdens Jesus steps under the load with us and helps us to carry on.

Wesley's Explanatory Notes
Verse 17. Whereby was fulfilled what was spoken by the Prophet Isaiah -He spoke it in a more exalted sense. The evangelist here only alludes to those words, as being capable of this lower meaning also. Such instances are frequent in the sacred writings, and are elegancies rather than imperfections. He fulfilled these words in the highest sense, by bearing our sins in his own body on the tree: in a lower sense, by sympathizing with us in our sorrows, and healing us of the diseases which were the fruit of sin.

And if healing is part of the atonement, then God NEVER makes exceptions! To say that He does is like calling Him a liar! He always honors His Word and the problem is never with Him. What kind of a Father would makes His children promises and then go back on them all the time simply because He's God and can do whatever He wants to? If God meant for there to be exceptions, He would have told us so!

That is exactly the point. If healing is part of the atonement then everyone who asks Jesus for healing would be healed. NO EXCEPTIONS.

And Paul's thorn was not a sickness!!! It was exactly what he said it was--a messenger of Satan that stirred up persecution everywhere he went.

We don't know what Paul's affliction was for sure. It was physical. He may have been partly blind.

As to the rest...when you became saved, did sin just immediately and automatically cease? Of course not

Agreed! We continue to sin. That is why we confess our sins and ask forgiveness for them
1JO 1:9 * If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
When we confess our sins He has to cleanse us from all sins. NO EXCEPTIONS! If healing were a part of the atonement then when we confess that we are sick and ask Jesus for healing then Jesus would have to heal us of all sickness. NO EXCEPTIONS!

And, in case you were not aware, many, many, many people are instantly and totally healed from sickness when they are ministered to.

And many are not. Remember NO EXCEPTIONS

The problem is that most Christians today do not know how to minister healing in a very effective manner. Jesus said that we are to continue to fulfill the Great Commission and that we would do greater works than He, but the Church has become so complacent and weak that people are dying left and right all around us. Ministering healing and walking in our FULL redemption is a process. And there are people all over the world who have learned how to minister to the sick and are training ordinary Christians to do the same thing. I happen to be going to one of those training sessions in a few days. I am no longer content with being a hearer--I will be a doer!

Do you have to ask someone to administer to you in order to be forgiven of sins? No, you only have to ask Jesus. The same would be true of healing.

On a personal note. My wife was born without a right hand. Her mother wrote to Oral Roberts and asked him if he would heal her daughter's hand. He wrote back and said "certainly, I would be glad to heal your daughter. All you have to do is send me $2,000 dollars" This was in 1952. I'm sure that he would ask for a lot more today.

Did Jesus ask for money before healing someone?

Teresa

November 12th, 2003, 11:09 AM

:thumb great job onsolidrock. I had wanted to respond to Livin4Jesus's post but don't have the time that you have taken. Its was my point that physical healing cannot be equaled to the Atonement. Not that Jesus does not heal, we all know that He does.

But to say that physical healing is equal to Atonement for sins then why would there be so many sick people. Why would your wife be born without a hand? Or why did she not get a hand when she became saved?

Just a minor example but when I was involved with wof, name it and claim it, I had a terrible toothache. I sowed some seed, reminded God of his promise to heal me, prayed for those with toothache problems. I called those things that aren't as if they were. Meaning I walked around saying "I am the healed of the Lord, my toothache is gone."

Well my tooth became abscessed and I ended up having to go to an oral surgeon that cost me $200 to have it pulled. Why did I to have my tooth pulled? Why was I not healed as I layed there for days in terrible pain praying that the Lord would take it away?

Was it my lack of faith? Was my seed not big enough? Did I not say the payer right? I claimed Isaiah 53:5 along with the ohther healing verses I had learned. Why did it not work? I am a born-again Christian so I should have been healed and should never have to suffer any illness or pain, right?

Well we do not always understand the will of God, do we?

ronredeem

November 12th, 2003, 12:18 PM

Jesus prayed that the Father’s will be done in the earth as it is in Heaven. This is what is being dealt with. I don’t agree with your explanation about Paul being sick in II corinthians but that is not the issue. We must remember this, that it’s about the Father’s will. Jesus and the Father are one. If it was Jesus’ prayer it was also the Father’s will. If there is no sickness in Heaven, then God will is the same for the earth. Healing may not be manifesting but it is His will. For you to say otherwise is to deny what Jesus prayed.

onsolidrock

November 12th, 2003, 12:56 PM

originally posted by ronredeem
Jesus prayed that the Father’s will be done in the earth as it is in Heaven. This is what is being dealt with. I don’t agree with your explanation about Paul being sick in II corinthians but that is not the issue. We must remember this, that it’s about the Father’s will. Jesus and the Father are one. If it was Jesus’ prayer it was also the Father’s will. If there is no sickness in Heaven, then God will is the same for the earth. Healing may not be manifesting but it is His will. For you to say otherwise is to deny what Jesus prayed.

I'm not sure that I understand what you are getting at. Are you saying that because there is no sickness in Heaven, that there is no sickness on Earth? There is no sin in Heaven. Does that mean that there is no sin on Earth? There is eternal life in Heaven. Does that mean that everyone on Earth is going to live forever?

What do you mean by "manifesting" Does that mean that it is there but we just can't see it?

How do you know that sickness is not God's will? Couldn't God use sickness to test one's faith? Or even to bring a family member to belief in Him?

ronredeem

November 12th, 2003, 02:22 PM

onsolidrock

November 12th, 2003, 03:21 PM

What I am establishing is “What is God’s will? Once that is established then we can determine what our posture will be. Since there is no sin in Heaven then I know it is not God’s will for sin to dwell in me. When I get a glimpse of Heaven through Jesus then I know the will of God. He was there first so He knows the will of God, so as I keep my eyes on Him I too will know the will of God. God’s will is for Health. To say otherwise is not true.

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

This is the model prayer. This is what we should pray for. I see where it tells us to ask forgiveness, but I don't see where it says to ask for healing.

If it is God's will that I be healthy and I ask for health, then how could I get sick?

Three things that can be induced from the Bible about healing from God.
1. It is instant
2. It is complete
3. It is lasting

Anything less is not from God.

If healing were a part of the atonement,then it would just like asking forgiveness for sin. We askand we recieve. If we ask for healing, we would be instantly and completely healed. It doesn't always happen.

ronredeem

November 12th, 2003, 03:58 PM

In the model prayer verse 10 says: Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Whatever is happening in Heaven is the will of God. If what is happening in the earth is in conflict with what is happening in Heaven then it is not the will of God. Until we establish in our hearts what the will of God is we will always be confused. If sickness is His will then I would violate His will if I seek any type of healing.

lighthouse

November 12th, 2003, 04:04 PM

I JOHN1:
Sin, Its Reality and Remedy
8 ¶ If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us

lighthouse

November 12th, 2003, 04:07 PM

The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2000.

I John
2:

1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

lighthouse

November 12th, 2003, 04:10 PM

PAUL SAID

I TIMOTHY 1: 15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Livin4Jesus

November 12th, 2003, 07:01 PM

onsolidrock,

Since my computer is broken and I am sitting here at Kinko's typing this, paying 20 cents a minute with a husband and children waiting for me to bring back McDonald's, I only have time to cover one of your points.

I do not agree with your assessment of the words "griefs" and "sorrows" in the Hebrew. You asked where I got my information, and I will tell you so that you can check it out for yourself: go to crosswalk.com and type in Isaiah 53:4 using the Strong's concordance. According to Strong's, the word "griefs" is #02483 and is translated as "sickness". The words "sorrows" is #04341 and is translated as "physical and mental pain". Anyone who doesn't believe me can look it up for themself.

With regard to something you said about your contention that Jesus did not bear our sicknesses for us so that we wouldn't have to bear them, but merely could feel our pain because of His love for us and that is what is meant by Isaiah 53:4 and Matthew 8:17--am I understanding your position correctly?--the only thing that I have time to say right now is that this is an incredible example of watering down the Gospel and being blinded to the truth of healing in the Word. I could and probably will argue this with you (Christian-like, of course) using Scripture, not just conjecture after I return from my trip (I'm leaving in just a few hours).

God bless,

Pam

onsolidrock

November 13th, 2003, 07:01 PM

Okay, I see your point so let's back up and start over.

ISA 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

MAT 8:14 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.
15 And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.
16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

I'm not an expert on either the Hebrew or Greek languages, but in both cases Strong's concordance does not give a number for the word our. That means that in the original languages it says that he bore griefs [sickness] and carried sorrows [infirmities]. That does not mean that he healed all sickness or infirminies while He was here on earth. He didn't heal all of the sick in Israel.

The atonement is not untill verse 5 in Isaiah 53. There it does not mention sickness only sin.

Matthew talks about Jesus fulfillment of Isaih 53;4

When did He fulfill that prophecy? While He was here on Earth during His ministry, Before the cross , BEFORE THE ATONEMENT

Jael

November 13th, 2003, 07:25 PM

Three things that can be induced from the Bible about healing from God.
1. It is instant
2. It is complete
3. It is lasting

I agree with points 2 and 3, but healing was not always instantaneous in the Bible...I can think of at least two cases where it wasn't:

Luk 17:13 And they lifted up [their] voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.

Luk 17:14 And when he saw [them], he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.

Luk 17:15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God

The lepers went on their way in obedience to Jesus' word, but their healing did not become clear until some time later, "as they went". This is the story where only one of the ten lepers returned to thank Jesus, the others did not come back.

The man in the story below was healed in stages...he went from being totally blind, to seeing unclearly, to having perfect sight.

Mar 8:23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.

Mar 8:24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.

Mar 8:25 After that he put [his] hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

He was healed completely, but not instantly. I don't believe in WOF doctrine concerning healing, but healing does not have to be instant to be from God.

debiayn

November 14th, 2003, 09:37 AM

I'm reading all these posts and my head is spinning. I'm not sure what to believe. I don't have a TV. I don't what to treat God like a genie in a bottle, but as I read I am remembering the healings I personally have seen and I think I should share one here.
My son was swimming in a pool and as he came up to the surface, my daughter dived in and they Smashed faces. There was blood everywhere. Only my daughter was hurt, I think her nose was broken. She had 2 black marble-looking things on the top of her nose,by her forehead and it (her nose)was so swollen that the ridges on top of her lip were gone. We were only a couple of blocks away from the hospital, but I have had my nose packed in the hospital- I so hated for her to go thru anything like that-so I held ice on her nose and prayed-I don't know exactly what Jesus stripes healed- but He touched her and within an hour she was fine. It was a Sunday the next day I did take her to a doctor, just to make sure.

debi
PS- i don't have a TV and I don't send TBN $$$.

Jael

November 14th, 2003, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by debiayn
I'm reading all these posts and my head is spinning. I'm not sure what to believe. I don't have a TV. I don't what to treat God like a genie in a bottle, but as I read I am remembering the healings I personally have seen and I think I should share one here.
My son was swimming in a pool and as he came up to the surface, my daughter dived in and they Smashed faces. There was blood everywhere. Only my daughter was hurt, I think her nose was broken. She had 2 black marble-looking things on the top of her nose,by her forehead and it (her nose)was so swollen that the ridges on top of her lip were gone. We were only a couple of blocks away from the hospital, but I have had my nose packed in the hospital- I so hated for her to go thru anything like that-so I held ice on her nose and prayed-I don't know exactly what Jesus stripes healed- but He touched her and within an hour she was fine. It was a Sunday the next day I did take her to a doctor, just to make sure.

debi
PS- i don't have a TV and I don't send TBN $$$.

Debi, you don't have to stop believing in God's ability and willingness to heal, just because you reject the WOF's distortions...I fully believe in divine healing and I have experienced it. When I encounter illness or injury, I pray expectantly and persistently, until the Lord makes His will clear. Although I know that He always CAN heal, it is up to His sovereign will to decide if He WILL heal, in any given case. So His answer to me might not always be what I want to hear. But I never doubt His ability to heal. Praise God for that awesome testimony of your daughter's healing! :):

ronredeem

November 14th, 2003, 10:40 AM

Debiayn, Jael and on Solid Rock, I appreciate your comments. Do you believe that we can know God’s will in this area? If you have children you can relate to this. You always want your children to understand you. They have a tendency to misunderstand or claim to misunderstand. But as parents we go over and over training that will help them to understand us. The Father is better than us and He is not the author of confusion, therefore He wants us to understand His will. He has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness. That includes His will. Without His will we are confused. I too have had healings in my life.
Some were instant with a spoken word and some were a fight of faith. Because I knew that it wasn’t the Father’s will for the sickness to be in my body I chose to fight. Without knowing His will I wouldn’t know what to do.

onsolidrock

November 14th, 2003, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by debiayn
I'm reading all these posts and my head is spinning. I'm not sure what to believe. I don't have a TV. I don't what to treat God like a genie in a bottle, but as I read I am remembering the healings I personally have seen and I think I should share one here.

I don't have a problem with God being able to heal. He certainly can. Whether or not He heals us is His descision, not ours. We cannot demand healing and expect to recieve it everytime. He doesn't always answer our prayers the way that we want Him to.

originally posted by Jael I agree with points 2 and 3, but healing was not always instantaneous in the Bible...I can think of at least two cases where it wasn't:

Thanks for pointing that out.

originally posted by ronredeem I too have had healings in my life.
Some were instant with a spoken word and some were a fight of faith. Because I knew that it wasn’t the Father’s will for the sickness to be in my body I chose to fight. Without knowing His will I wouldn’t know what to do.

If it wasn't the Fathers will for the sickness to be in your body how did you get sick? Was it because you weren't living in the Father's will? If you repented and came back to living in the Father's will wouldn't the sickness just go away?

Jael

November 14th, 2003, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by ronredeem
Debiayn, Jael and on Solid Rock, I appreciate your comments. Do you believe that we can know God’s will in this area? If you have children you can relate to this. You always want your children to understand you. They have a tendency to misunderstand or claim to misunderstand. But as parents we go over and over training that will help them to understand us. The Father is better than us and He is not the author of confusion, therefore He wants us to understand His will. He has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness. That includes His will. Without His will we are confused. I too have had healings in my life.
Some were instant with a spoken word and some were a fight of faith. Because I knew that it wasn’t the Father’s will for the sickness to be in my body I chose to fight. Without knowing His will I wouldn’t know what to do.

Yes, I do believe I can know God's will...because when I seek Him diligently, He makes it clear. There have been times when I prayed, and the answer I got was similar to Paul's "my grace is sufficient for you"...I didn't get a promise of healing, I got a promise of strength to go through the illness or affliction. And He also gave me the peace to accept it. Once the Lord makes it clear that immediate healing is not His will, then it's my job to submit myself to His Lordship and trust Him.

But I don't assume that He won't heal me...when I am attacked with illness, my default position is to trust Him for healing, UNTIL He settles my spirit, that His will is otherwise. I have a chronic illness and I have prayed many times for a one-time, final healing...but the answer I get is "trust me, I can take you through this"...that doesn't stop me from praying whenever I am having an acute episode and I need immediate help - and the Lord is very faithful about coming to my rescue during those times. But I have to trust Him on a day-by-day basis, because the illness is still there. Do I still hope that one day it WILL be His will to heal me once and for all...sure I do. He didn't say "Never"...but He did lead me to change my focus in this case, from "freedom from illness", to "victory in spite of illness". But the next time I am sick, I will still pray persistently and expectantly, knowing that He is able to heal.

onsolidrock

November 15th, 2003, 03:25 AM

Jael; Your situation reminds me of Paul

2CO 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Obviously it was not God's will that Paul be healed. In fact God made it plain that Paul would not be healed.

ronredeem

November 15th, 2003, 04:46 PM

On Solid rock you quoted:
Obviously it was not God's will that Paul be healed. In fact God made it plain that Paul would not be healed.

Can you tell me how you came to the conclusion that 2 corinthians 12 was talking about sickness? Verse 7 said it was messager from Satan.

onsolidrock

November 15th, 2003, 06:25 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ronredeem
On Solid rock you quoted:
Obviously it was not God's will that Paul be healed. In fact God made it plain that Paul would not be healed.

Can you tell me how you came to the conclusion that 2 corinthians 12 was talking about sickness? Verse 7 said it was messager from Satan. [/QUOTE

I didn't specifically say that it was talking about sickness. It could have been a physical affliction as in partial blindness.

Verse 7 says that it was a thorn in the flesh. Flesh means body not spirit.

Have you read the Book of Job. There it was Satan who caused Boils on Job's body.

So it follows that a demon could give Paul a physical infirmity which God could have healed if it had been His will to do so.

ReadyToGo

November 15th, 2003, 06:26 PM

Wait, I forgot something....

:popcorn

Ok, please continue.....

:wave Hi Livin4Jesus, MarkD, Ronredeem! I've been away for quite awhile, so just wanted to say Hi. Livin4Jesus, we haven't talked in long time - glad to see you!!

ronredeem

November 16th, 2003, 11:06 AM

Hi Ready to Go. It’s good it hear from you.

On Solid Rock, whatever the messenger of satan brought to Paul it wasn’t the will of God. I say this based on 1 John 3:8.

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil

God hated the works of the devil so much that He sent His Son.

onsolidrock

November 16th, 2003, 07:25 PM

On Solid Rock, whatever the messenger of satan brought to Paul it wasn’t the will of God. I say this based on 1 John 3:8.
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil
God hated the works of the devil so much that He sent His Son.

Notice that John is talking about sin, not sickness.
God allowed Satan's messenger to torment Paul for a reason.

2CO 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

It was the will of God for Satan's messenger to continue to torment Paul so that Paul would have to rely on Jesus and not get a "big head" thinking that God had exalted him above measure.

[REV 21:4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Notice that the former things include pain. Pain can be brought on by sickness or injury. The Bible indicates that it is not God's will that everyone be healed. No where in the Bible does it say that it is God's will that Christians will never get sick.

For some it is God's will that they be sick so that they must depend on Him, just like Paul. For others it is God's will that they be healed.

ronredeem

November 17th, 2003, 10:01 AM

On Solid Rock,
I guess I don’t see it that way. The way you presented your view, God is allowing the messenger of satan to be our teacher. That’s contrary to Jesus’ Word.

John 14
The Gift of His Peace
25 "These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. 27Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

When God told Paul that His grace is sufficient, I do believe He was telling him that He has given him everything that he need to overcome this situation. That’s why James could boldly say “Submit to God, resist the devil and he will flee.

Livin4Jesus

November 18th, 2003, 01:56 AM

Hi everyone!

I've been gone for a few days and I haven't had time to read any posts--it's late here but I just wanted to post about this weekend!

As you know, I went to a training seminar on how to minister healing, and wow! was it powerful! I took 60 pages of notes and did some intense reading and studying for 4 days. I had some time to spend alone with God--what a blessed time! And by the way, the minister who was teaching us NEVER once asked for any money. He and his family basically live in hotels and drive all over the country in their old van, so nobody can tell me that people who preach healing are only out for money. This man's heart is so consecrated to God that it is palpable. Oh, I could go on and on about the awesome healings God has done through their ministry!

I learned so much from this seminar and have been even more encouraged to set the captives free. We are in a war with the powers of darkness, but praise God! Light always prevails!

On Saturday night, we had a chance to actually practice what we had learned. God is so awesome! I layed my hands on a little 3 or 4 year old boy who had hearing loss and it was very painful and affected his speech, and then ministered healing to him, and he was healed! His hearing was restored and the pain left him! His mother then said that the real test would be that night when they drove home in the car because the music always hurt his ears so much. So the next day at church I asked her how his ears were and she said that his ears didn't bother him once the whole way home, even with the music on! But then she said that that morning he had told her that they hurt a little again, so I took him in the hallway and layed hands on him again and prayed again and the power of God was so strong that he actually fell down! I did NOT push him in any way shape or form and the fact that he fell totally shocked his mother and I! Anyway, after he got up he said, "Mommy, my ears don't hurt anymore!" And his hearing and speech were functioning normally, too! His mother and I burst into tears and we hugged each other and the little boy and exchanged phone numbers and addresses. His mom kept saying "God is so faithful!". And boy, is He ever.

There were other miracles, too. A man's arm was restored and functioning normally, and a lady who walked with a cane throughout the whole training no longer walked with it on Sunday. Also, I prayed for a lady who had an incision on her cheek and as I was praying, it began to leave right there in front of me. Another lady saw it, too and commented on it. Then, I did something really stupid--I got a little freaked out. I had never seen anything like that happening before, so I kind of backed off and stopped praying. That should have been the time that I really prayed hard to get rid of the dang thing, but I let it go. An hour later I saw the woman as she was leaving and her cheek looked like it first had before I began to pray for her. I am so sorry! Also, on my way to my car, a man approached me and told me that he had been prayed for by another trainee the night before and that his lower back trouble and foot problem (something like planter...something or other) was 50% healed in just a matter of 12 hours! I'm sure there were other amazing things that happened, but I didn't know any of these people, so I was only able to talk to a few.

I have so much yet to learn, but I will not back down! Jesus commanded us to treat others as we would want to be treated and to heal the sick, so we must all be willing to do that, and not just in church, but wherever there is a need (and not only for those people that we know). I want to be obedient, and I will take responsibility for anyone I minister to who does not get healed. I will never blame the sick person. Jesus told the disciples that it was their unbelief that caused them not to be able to cast the demon out. He did not criticize the person possessed or his family. God desires to do mighty things through us, and I am not special--anyone can minister healing and see it happen right before their eyes or hear of it happening shortly after.

You guys here can try to steal my joy if you want to, but there is nothing that can convince me that what I witnessed and was apart of wasn't real or wasn't from God. To hand that boy back to his mother, completely healed was a feeling I will never forget!

God bless you all! I will read more later; I've got to go to bed!

Pam

onsolidrock

November 18th, 2003, 06:24 AM

I have so much yet to learn, but I will not back down! Jesus commanded us to treat others as we would want to be treated and to heal the sick, so we must all be willing to do that, and not just in church, but wherever there is a need (and not only for those people that we know). I want to be obedient, and I will take responsibility for anyone I minister to who does not get healed. I will never blame the sick person. Jesus told the disciples that it was their unbelief that caused them not to be able to cast the demon out. He did not criticize the person possessed or his family. God desires to do mighty things through us, and I am not special--anyone can minister healing and see it happen right before their eyes or hear of it happening shortly after.

I would like to challenge you. Take your ability to heal to the nearest hospital and empty that hospital and keep it empty. If your healing power is from God, then you will be able to do that.

Also, keep a record of your healings and whenever possible do some follow up checking. For instance, if a year or even two years from now if that little boy is once again having trouble with his ears or his speech then you will know that the healing was not from God because healing from God is both complete and lasting.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade. I just want you to be certain that your healings follow the pattern of Scriptural healings and not the pattern of most Pentecostal healings that I have seen that do not last.

If one healing does not last then I would question if any of them are from God.

onsolidrock

November 18th, 2003, 07:48 AM

God desires to do mighty things through us, and I am not special--anyone can minister healing and see it happen right before their eyes or hear of it happening shortly after.

RED FLAG

Look at what God says;

1 Cor 12; 28 * And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 * Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 * Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

The obvious answer to these questions is no!

[1CO 12:11] But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

It is God who chooses which gift or gifts each of us will have, not us.

ronredeem

November 18th, 2003, 09:30 AM

Living4Jesus,
Let no one distract you. You have found your place in the Body. I am glad that there are those who are willing to be a vessel that the Power of God can flow through.

MarkD

November 18th, 2003, 01:02 PM

Hi RTG! how ya doin'?

Good to see you again.

L4J,

You had said:
"And by the way, the minister who was teaching us NEVER once asked for any money. He and his family basically live in hotels and drive all over the country in their old van, so nobody can tell me that people who preach healing are only out for money. "

This is good. You are correct that THESE people are not in it for the money. But a lot are. Admittedly, people do tend to "blanket" anyone out there teaching wealth/healing as WOF, but it would appear from your statement that these people have their hearts in the right place.

If you have been blessed with the gift of healing, then praise God! But I also have the same concerns as onsolidrock.

What concerns me is when you commented that the boys healing (in his ear) was fading. What would cause that?

OSR is correct in the fact that God's healings are permanent. Even with the ten lepers who were healed on the way to the priest, only one returned to praise Jesus, but it does not say that the rest lost their healing - so not even a lack of faith can explain a loss of healing (which is often used by many WOF'ers).

Also, OSR is correct in that we need to be careful about making statements such as "anyone can minister healing". The verses listed by OSR clearly indicate that healing is a gift that is distributed by the Holy Spirit, and not necessarily to everyone.

I praise God that you got to witness the miracle of healing. It is truly a humbling (and exciting) experience to see God working through His people.

However, you do need to realize that if it IS of God, then no one involved will lose their healing. If possible, I would keep track of some of the people involved. Especially that little boy!

If healing is your gift from the Lord, use it as you are led by the Holy Spirit. Healing is a powerful testimony to the Lord!

onsolidrock

November 19th, 2003, 07:29 AM

On Saturday night, we had a chance to actually practice what we had learned. God is so awesome! I layed my hands on a little 3 or 4 year old boy who had hearing loss and it was very painful and affected his speech, and then ministered healing to him, and he was healed! His hearing was restored and the pain left him! His mother then said that the real test would be that night when they drove home in the car because the music always hurt his ears so much. So the next day at church I asked her how his ears were and she said that his ears didn't bother him once the whole way home, even with the music on! But then she said that that morning he had told her that they hurt a little again, so I took him in the hallway and layed hands on him again and prayed again and the power of God was so strong that he actually fell down! I did NOT push him in any way shape or form and the fact that he fell totally shocked his mother and I! Anyway, after he got up he said, "Mommy, my ears don't hurt anymore!" And his hearing and speech were functioning normally, too! His mother and I burst into tears and we hugged each other and the little boy and exchanged phone numbers and addresses. His mom kept saying "God is so faithful!". And boy, is He ever.

Can you show an example from scripture where someone had to be brought back to be healed again? Wasn't this boy healed completely on sat night?

I prayed for a lady who had an incision on her cheek and as I was praying, it began to leave right there in front of me. Another lady saw it, too and commented on it. Then, I did something really stupid--I got a little freaked out. I had never seen anything like that happening before, so I kind of backed off and stopped praying. That should have been the time that I really prayed hard to get rid of the dang thing, but I let it go. An hour later I saw the woman as she was leaving and her cheek looked like it first had before I began to pray for her. I am so sorry!

I thought healing was dependent on God, not you. Jesus and the disciples simply said "get up and walk" and the lame jumped up and walked or ran. If a healing is from God I can't believe that it would fade away just because you got so excited that you forgot to pray harder!

Also, on my way to my car, a man approached me and told me that he had been prayed for by another trainee the night before and that his lower back trouble and foot problem (something like planter...something or other) was 50% healed in just a matter of 12 hours!

What took so long?

Livin4Jesus

November 19th, 2003, 11:54 AM

Actually, onsolidrock,

Jesus commands us in the Gospels to heal the sick, raise the dead, preach the Gospel. He was not just speaking to the apostles of the day or to some today--he is speaking to believers--didn't He say that believers will lay hands on the sick and they will recover? Not just some believers! Also, He commanded us to treat others as we would want to be treated. If you were sick, would you want someone to come up to you and minister healing to you?

The gifts of healings is a special gift that the Holy Spirit will put into operation as He sees fit when a need arises, but we can all, at any time pray the prayer of faith for a sick person. I have much more that I can say about the gifts of healings, but just to sum it up: you do not need to have the gifts of healings in order to minister healing to someone. Otherwise, Jesus' command would be in vain. The gifts of healings is for use in a different situation, which I'm sure you will not agree with, but oh well.

Thanks ronredeem, for your encouragement. They can "RED FLAG" me all they want to but I will not back down!

Pam

glorymj

November 19th, 2003, 12:04 PM

If you cannot reconcile it with the WHOLE of God's Word, then it's NOT TRUTH.

ronredeem

November 19th, 2003, 12:46 PM

OnSolidRock,

We will never be able to resolve this as long as our foundational beliefs in this area are so far apart. I believe like others that God wants His Body healed. What I get from your position is God randomly picks who should be healed. Until we can together establish the will of God and agree upon it, all that is being done is confusing to the other readers.

To the other readers who are just passing through this thread, I suggest to you, listen to your inner man and if you are close enough to the Father ask Him, He will give you the answer so you don’t have to filter through debates to get your answers.

Jael

November 19th, 2003, 01:23 PM

What I get from your position is God randomly picks who should be healed.

Who said anything about "randomly"...?

MarkD

November 19th, 2003, 01:55 PM

by ronredeem:
"Until we can together establish the will of God and agree upon it, all that is being done is confusing to the other readers."

OK, ron, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here, and assume that you are talking about discerning the will of God in the above sentence.

Because I really hope you are not talking about "establishing" in the sense of us taking control of it and determing the direction of it.

That being said, I've got to agree with Jael, who said anything about God's will being random?

ronredeem

November 19th, 2003, 02:16 PM

Jael,
I never said anyone used that word randomly. I said that's what I get from onSolidRock's presentation, especially in post #68 of this thread.

MarkD,
Where you have been man? I have missed our conversations.
What I meant was God's will being established in our hearts.

MarkD

November 19th, 2003, 02:42 PM

by ronredeem:
"MarkD,
Where you have been man? I have missed our conversations."

Oh, I've been here and there. Mostly lurking because I'm getting crushed with work. But I do take time out on occasion to make a post or two.

"What I meant was God's will being established in our hearts."

OK. I can be cool with that position, as long as we are not the ones doing the establishing.

"I never said anyone used that word randomly. I said that's what I get from onSolidRock's presentation, especially in post #68 of this thread."

hmm. Looking over the thread in general and that post specifically, I do not come away with a feeling of randomness. Perhaps it's just in how each of our perspectives are molded?

I do have a question for you though.
What is your take on the situation that L4J described? IE: the healings that faded away? Why would that happen?

onsolidrock

November 19th, 2003, 09:24 PM

originally posted by Living4Jesus

Actually, onsolidrock,

Jesus commands us in the Gospels to heal the sick, raise the dead, preach the Gospel. He was not just speaking to the apostles of the day or to some today--he is speaking to believers-

MAT 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

There are several commands here. We can't pick and choose the commands. We have to obey all of them.
1. We are not to go to the gentiles [non-Jews]. Verse 5
2. We are not to go to the Samaritans. Verse 5
3. We are to go only to the House of Isreal. Verse 6
4. We are to preach only to the Jews.Verses 6 &7
5. We are to heal the sick only among the Jews. Verse 8
6. We are to cleanse the Lepers [These might be hard to find today] Verse 8
7. We are to cast out devils only among the Jews. Verse 8
8. We are not to take anything of value with us. Verse 9
9. We are not to take any money [scrip] with us. Verse10
10. We are not to take an extra coat. Verse 10
11. We are not to wear shoes. Verse 10
12. We are to stay only in a house, not in a Hotel remember we can take no money with us. That would include a credit card. Verses 11 & 12.
13. We are to walk where-ever we go [barefoot]. How else would we shake the dust off of our feet? Verse 14

Do you still believe that this is what we are to do today. Perhaps you should rethink that, unless you are already on a plane to Israel.

-didn't He say that believers will lay hands on the sick and they will recover? Not just some believers!

[MAR 16:18] They shall take up[handle] serpents[snakes all kinds]; and if they drink any deadly thing [poison], it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover [completely].

Do you handle poisionous snakes? Do you mix cyanide in your koolaid? If not why not?

originally posted by Ronredeem
OnSolidRock,
We will never be able to resolve this as long as our foundational beliefs in this area are so far apart. I believe like others that God wants His Body healed. What I get from your position is God randomly picks who should be healed. Until we can together establish the will of God and agree upon it, all that is being done is confusing to the other readers.

God does not promise that His whole Body [ all believers] will be healed. He did not promise that Paul would be healed. God knows every person's situation. He knows who He is going to heal and who He is not going to heal. It is not like He draws names out of a hat.

To the other readers who are just passing through this thread, I suggest to you, listen to your inner man and if you are close enough to the Father ask Him, He will give you the answer so you don’t have to filter through debates to get your answers.

Oh Puleease don't listen to your inner man. Instead read your Bible and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth to you. I hope that is what you meant Ron.

onsolidrock

November 20th, 2003, 06:23 AM

Before someone runs out and buys cyanide to put in their koolaid to prove me wrong let me explain further.

MAR 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 * They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

These things are signs and wonders. What was the purpose of signs and wonders?

HEB 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Signs and wonders along with some of the spiritual gifts were used as a witness to those people who were alive to hear Jesus speak in His own words

They were also a sign of an apostle;
[ACT 2:43] And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

They were used while the apostles and prophets were laying the foundation of the Church [all believers]

Rom. 15;19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:

All of the eyewitnesses and all of the apostles died shortly after John wrote Revelations. Revelations was the last book of the Bible which completed the foundation of the Church.

After the completion of the Bible then signs and wonders were no longer needed along with some of the spiritual gifts.

That is why today we cannot drink poison and not get sick or die. It is why we cannot get bit by a poisonous snake and not get sick or die. It is why all believers cannot heal the sick or perform any other miracle or wonder