Joel Osteen

[Creeper]

Hello rangers:wave

Please tell me what y'all think of Joel

Thanks:thumb

[Elizabeth_S]

He must be becoming really popular, this is the 3rd thread I have seen on him a jsut over a week.

I like him, but his sermons tend to be "happy" sermons. I haven't heard him say anything wrong, but, his sermons tend to seem ummm......surface type.

But he is starting to catch my hubby (unsaved) ears, so I am watching Joel closely. He does love jokes and can laugh at himself. Really seems to be a well centered guy as far as attitude.

He seems a little "off" to me, but that may be because his sermons aren't really deep. But I haven't watched him in a while.

[cameron222]

We need some happy sermons in this day and age. Some of the fastest growing churches are those who deal with everyday real life issues. I like Joel! :):

Its fun to talk about the rapture, but what aboult guilt, depression, doubt, anger, dysfunction, family problems? Christians need as much help in these areas as the unsaved.

Satan is also constantly trying to steal our joy, often by using the items I mentioned in the previous paragraph. Christians need to lighten up and laugh a little and enjoy the blessings God has given us. Not all is hopeless. What a great time to be alive!!

[barb43]

When i first discovered Joel preaching on late night Sun. tv, i thought he was really good . . . watched him for awhile. Discovered him participating in a tbn telethon, however, and was totally turned off! :twitch Later, i tried watching him again one Sun. night and he was preaching about how "God helps those who help themselves." :tsk That put the period at the end of the sentence for me . . . I no longer watch him and couldn't recommend him w/a clear conscience.

barb

[Faith77]

I watch Joel every week. Yes, his sermons are just "happy" sermons, not too deep, but I need that a lot. I get the deeper sermons at my church.

[comicnurse]

What if all preachers preached the exact same message? There would be a lot of unsaved people out there if they did. God is guiding Joel to preach the "Happy Sermons" for a reason.

Think of some old man who has been bitter towards the christian faith most of his life. He is at home, sitting in his old delapitated chair, channel surfing. He catches a glimpse of Joel and decides to set the remote down for just a second. Joel is talking about overcoming obstacles that seem impossible to overcome. But, with God's help and guidance, you can achieve your goals.
This old man can relate to this message. He has been unemployed for a long time, life has not been good for him. He does not turn the channel, Joel has impacted him.

Now, if this same old man sees a preacher on there preaching the "You're gonna go to you know where unless you repent" message, he will likely keep ahold of that remote and turn the channel.

So what if Joel preaches the "Happy Sermons." Some people need to hear those now!! He is teaching from the Bible.
I like Joel! My husband likes him too!

Kendra

[SeattlePhog]

Barb, I started a few replies to your posts only to delete them because I felt they were attack posts and that is not who I am. Instead I went for a walk and prayed to God about this whole matter.

What I came away from these prayers is this.

We are all at different stages of our faith. Not everyone is going to be where you are in their walk with Christ. Some people need to hear that there IS indeed HOPE.

There seems to be a lot of people on RR that are attacking TV ministers. IE Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyers... I understand a lot of people are turned off because these ministers are on a certain television network. I am not saying I agree with everything being said by these people, but with all the other garbage being shown on tv... These ministers seem awfully good to me. AT LEAST they are talking about Jesus. They are presenting truths. Heck I know Joel prays the prayer of salvation at the end of all his sermons. Is this evil????

In these times, Christianity is being attacked more and more. We as Christians need to disassociate ourselves from such activities.

On a closing note... Amen Kendra!!! Your words mirror what came to mind on my walk.

YBIC,

dan :)

[Jiggy37]

I only watched him once, when he was talking about how we're all in God's favor and that people will tend to naturally treat us better "not because of who we are, but because of whose we are." I didn't realize it at the time, but after so much has pointed out about him here these past few days, it is true that there really wasn't much of a scriptural basis for it even if it succeeded in being a "feel-good" sermon...
I'm not going to pass judgment based on one show, though; that'd be better left to the others here.

[Elizabeth_S]

I guess I'll clarify my previous post.

I have not heard a "bad" sermon from Joel. I like his happy sermons. but they aren't much for depth, which I tend to like myself.

However, I did mention that my unsaved hubby likes him, and as long as Joel does not go of into the WOF or all God wants is for us to be blessed and happy (not scriptural, we are told things could and would be tough) or there is something wrong with us, I really have no serious problem with Him.

Yes, a happy sermon can sure pick you up on a depressing or bad day. Nothing wrong with that. And Joel may be called to be a "happy" preacher. It's not like he's Benny Hinn or Rod Parsley :eek
:pound

I like his jokes and the way he can laugh at himself.
_________________________

I just wanted to add: that there are enough "bad" ministers out there, we don't have to go looking for problems, if they are there, the problems will present themselves. Right in our faces.

So I guess, I have no real problem with Joel.

[Peace2u]

I like him..........., very much

Let's get some perspective here. Everyone has their own style and that's true for Joel as well.

My criteria for whether or not I'll even listen to a TV preacher is determined by 1) do they preach the word of God. After that, I allow for all our God given differences.

I love the idea of seeing and listening to his family as well. God's message after all if a simple one. It seems to me that Joel [and family] provide us with basic tools for living.

I often need that "refresher course". I always come away uplifted after one of his sermons. For the deeper stuff, I do my own studying or come here.

YSIC...,
Peace2u

[RJs here]

I personally like him {I mean it's difficult to NOT like him! ;):


And yet, like Elizabeth has mentioned ~ I do keep an eye on him. Cuz I know after all ~ he does have WOF roots!

{speak yourself rich..... type of stuff.....}



Anyway -- for anyone interested in seeing a very controversial write up about him -- there is one at www.DeceptionintheChurch.com that will leave you going :eek


But as long as he truly stays with Scripture, then I have no problem.


I will say this though -- his church seems to focus an AWFUL LOT on "what God can do FOR US"!! ~ rather than the other way around!!

I mean -- for pete's sake, their church SLOGAN is "Discover the Champion in You"!! :freaked


Way off base, IMO ~ says nada about a relationship w/Jesus, now does it??

[cameron222]

RJ I watched a sermon by Joel Osteen last week and at the end he did mention Jesus Christ.......

I have been critical of preachers on here at one time or another but I have yet to see where he is off base Bibically.

Some people like condemnation preaching and others want help with how to solve their problems. I believe Mr. Osteen falls into the latter camp. :):

My personal favorite after Adrian Rogers is Gerald Mann. He is so honest and tells of his own struggles and does not heap condemnation on people. I like to hear a preacher who admits to being in the valley or having been there. The best therapy is always from someone who has already experienced what you are going through.

[RJs here]

yeah, I KNOW he always mentions Jesus -- and giving your heart to him -- at the end of his sermon, cameron.

So IMO ~ he is not a false teacher.


*HOWEVER* I would like to know the REAL REASON behind their slogan of "Discover the Champion in you!"

Sounds to me like the "tickle your ears ~ feel good" POSITIVE THINKING type of stuff that ppl eat up.



So with you there on Adrian Rogers!! :thumb

Gerald Mann ~ I honestly cannot say one way or another, have only heard him a couple of times.


No doubt -- different "styles" for different "tastes" ~ and all of us should have no problem with that -- as LONG AS THE BIBLE IS BEING FOLLOWED!!!

That's basically all we can base the truth on!!

[barb43]

http://cultlink.com/ar/osteen.htm RJ, is this the article you were referring to? I have always respected Jackie Alnor's work . . .

Dan, i wasn't trying to be offensive, just stating my opinion. I really liked Joel until he was preaching with Ben Franklin's words . . . far too many people believe that line is in scripture, but it's not -- those words belong to Ben Franklin.

I agree w/you Adrian Rogers' admirers -- he's probably my favorite!

barb

[cameron222]

I scanned that article. Any church that 18,000 people walk the aisles and give their heart to Jesus in ONE YEAR must be doing something right.

Perhaps there is a little jealousy of some over a person with such a big vision.

I have never heard him begging for money or bragging about his airplane or waving his hand and having several people fall over backwards as the background music plays away like a stuck record.

And doesn't the word say that we are more than conqueors in Christ? Thus it seems that we are champions if we would but stop flogging ourselves and thinking that doing so builds some kind of righteousness within us.

I am still neutral....but I have not yet seen anything about him that turns me off.

[Mommy]

I have just recently started listening to him but so far I really like his teachings. Everything I have heard is in aligment with the Bible. His sermons are a little on the light side, but that is what I believe is necessary to win people to Christ sometimes. It is a refresher as someone said earlier for those who are Christians. I get the meat from Church and the life application from Osteen.

I have come to realize that everyone is not going to agree on different pastors. My thoughts are that if they have airtime and spend it teaching His word rather than begging for money, then they are doing something right.

[RJs here]

yep, barb43 ~ that was it -- SCARY article, huh!? :freaked


as far as the wof "roots" I was referring to, this is taken from the article:


INCREASING IN FAVOR

"See the Bible says that we can grow in favor," said Osteen in his sermon "Increasing in Favor" (available in RealAudio at http://www.lakewood.cc/a_v_library.htm). "I believe one of the main ways that we grow in favor is by declaring it. It’s not enough to just read it it’s not enough to just believe it. You’ve got to speak it out. Your words have creative power. And one of the primary ways we release our faith is through our words. And there is a divine connection between you declaring God’s favor and you seeing God’s favor manifest in your life…You’ve got to give life to your faith by speaking it out."

In keeping with the erroneous idea of using some positive thinking to get what you want in life, Osteen preaches the Kenneth Hagin/Charles Capps idea that we can get what we want from God by our faith-filled words. This entire sermon was on how as a child of God we should be receiving "preferential treatment" by everyone. He testified about how he had been pulled over a couple of times for speeding but when the officer saw his last name was Osteen, no ticket was issued. He said the same can happen for every Christian who wakes up declaring they have God’s favor. By following this method Osteen says he has been able to get the best parking spot in a crowded parking lot, a first class seat on a crowded airplane with no boarding pass, and priority seating at restaurants.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


{pers. note: "I" always get "priority seating", don't you guys!?? :spit ;):



hmmm...... "hmmm" is about all I can say!!

[Jiggy37]

That whole "favor-minded" sermon was the one I saw. On some level I could agree with him when he pointed out that Jesus grew in favor with God and so we should all be able to also, but does favor with God necessarily equal favor with other people, even despite the fact that he preached, "It's not who you are, it's whose you are"?

[RJs here]

Originally posted by Jiggy37
That whole "favor-minded" sermon was the one I saw. On some level I could agree with him when he pointed out that Jesus grew in favor with God and so we should all be able to also, but does favor with God necessarily equal favor with other people, even despite the fact that he preached, "It's not who you are, it's whose you are"?


~ yep, good question Jiggy.....


but how does one compare this "favor with God"

to what Scripture say ..... that if the world hated Jesus, it will surely hate us, too ~ ??

:confused


Just asking an honest, fair question here....


can it really work both ways??

or does one trump the other??

[lookinupval]

cameron, you make some good points (Joel doesn't brag about private jets, etc.)

To me, Joel is "christianity light," and I'm certain he provides the Lord's message to thousands of people. My last church was something like that...BarbT and I called it a "starter church."

but then we needed more meat, so we found a new church.

Joel leans towards WoF, but he doesn't spend every last stinking minute on it like the others, so he's okay in my book.


but people...


the voice...


sounds like a 12-year-old boy! ACK ACK ACK.

Personal opinion here...

He bugs me, big time! Lord forgive me, but I have so much fun doing my Joel Olsteen impersonation (I'm a female, but I can make my voice sound almost just like his).

Oh, I'm having to show great restraint here. Must go now.

[barb43]

Originally posted by lookinupval

He bugs me, big time! Lord forgive me, but I have so much fun doing my Joel Olsteen impersonation (I'm a female, but I can make my voice sound almost just like his).


:pound Oh, val! You're a hoot-'n-a-half, sister! Lord bless you for making me laugh!

Joel looks just like a guy i used to work w/and who was a best friend for years. I nearly fell out of bed in surprise the first time i ever saw him (it was late evening on a Sun. and i was flipping through the channels before turning out the light).

Joel's "okay" . . . but not my favorite.

barb

[CamelPower]

Joel's father, JOHN Osteen hasn't been dead all that long, and was WOF all the way. I've met folks from Lakewood Church who "pronounce" blessing on meals and "speak" healing toward us.

WOF lite.

[lookinupval]

"Pronounce" blessings???!!!

So instead of asking the Lord to please bless the meal, they...what...how would they pronounce it?

What is the terminology used? I'm interested because it would be good for people to know what terminology to look out for. I can't even IMAGINE how you would do such a thing.

[CamelPower]

lookingupval wonders:
"Pronounce" blessings???!!!

It would be more like: "Lord Jesus we speak blessing on this food, etc., etc., and speak healing to all, especially speaking healing on Leo, etc., etc." The net effect was most uncomfortable on all of the hearers.

Robert Tilton was also one who did this. Joel Osteen seems to be a much more palatable version of the WOF teacher. His father did not budge an inch on the usual WOF teaching.

[maryr_32]

By the way, what is wrong with saying that God helps those who help themselves???

I believe that wholeheartedly!! I also like what an old pastor of mine said. You need to put legs on your prayers. (DOn't just sit there and expect God to just heal you for example in lieu of seeking medical attention!!)

[pilgrimgal]

I haven't listened enough to form an opinion on him. But something hit when I read one of the posts. I of course believe that if we are walking in His will for us, that our lives will be smoother and "happier" than if we are not. But we have no guarantees that a right relationship with Him will protect us from the travails of life or get us better parking place or seating in a restaurant.:confused

[cameron222]

Actually the problems of life are designed to mold us. Its usually when our world crumbles around our feet that we cry out to God and draw near to Him.

But there are also those who have a persecution complex and think that they must be flogged in order to be righteous. Thats also dangerous and false.

Most of our problems are brought upon us by our own self. But God designed it so that we would call on Him when all else fails and He is there for those who love and seek Him.

[lookinupval]

Originally posted by cameron222
Actually the problems of life are designed to mold us. Oh, yeah, I'm molded, baby!

[pilgrimgal]

Yeah, Val I'm thinking I should be pretty well moulded too!

[Creeper]

very much.....:confused :sigh :twitch

[ddlewis86]

I think it is very important for all of us to take a look at this letter addressed to the members of Joel Osteen's congregation. The author of this letter is very insightful. Sometimes it's hard to believe that what we see isn't always what we get. The Link to the URL has been provided. http://www.iconbusters.com/iconbusters/docs/letter/letter.htm :jaw

[RJs here]

I don't know, dd.....

I read this guy's entire account of Joel Osteen & while I did find myself agreeing in some areas, I did not find myself agreeing w/everything.


But moreover ~ I then went to check his website further..... to see if this guy knew beans about what he was talking about.


First of all ~ he believes the pope is the AC..... :rolleyes

The pope does run a "false religion" but he certainly is not the AC!!


And further -- once I realized this Rand, who runs this iconbusters site, believes in Calvinism to a tee --


SORRY!!!!! "no go there"!!!!!!


The Bible CLEARLY says what it means & means what it says that salvation is available to "WHOSOEVER"!!!!!!!


So ~ knowing how dead wrong this guy is about these 2 VERY important topics -- I just cannot go along with him 100% on his assessment of Joel!!


{point to ponder: if he believes salvation = Calvinism, then why would he *even care* if Joel is ahem, "leading ppl astray"?? :confused

According to Calvinism -- these ppl wouldn't stand a chance anyway!!

:sigh :rolleyes

[ddlewis86]

I wasn't refering to his website and opinions on other things. I was pointing out his historical references to Mr. Osteen. I was also pointing out the horrific amount of money this "CHURCH" is spending-------for what?? God bless you! Thank you for your input:): :wave

[cameron222]

There is also a "jealousy factor" among some Christian leaders. If someone like young Mr. Olsteen is growing a dynamic ministry at a record rate, then the competition must see to it that he is doesn't get too big for his britches. Thus far, I have found nothing wrong with Joes Osteen and it appears that God is blessing his efforts in a huge way.......go Joel!!

[MFerris]

I recently saw him shortly for a brief time. I liked what I saw. Happy sermons are cool!

[ddlewis86]

I guess your right. I was, in no way, attempting to be hyper- critical. I have always had a bit of an issue with large, grandiose, "eye-candy" type of church buildings. I have absolutely no problem with large congregations, but 70 MILLION DOLLARS???????---Thats a little much I think.

Oh well, I guess the same can be said about God's blessings and the riches of the Vatican.:thumb

God Bless!!!

[barb43]

Originally posted by maryr_32
By the way, what is wrong with saying that God helps those who help themselves???


Ben Franklin said it but it is often mis-attributed to the Bible. I can't give you a link, but i have read -- and our pastor (Southern Baptist) has said -- that it is one of the most often believed-to-be-scriptural lines that isn't. Saying that in a sermon just leads people to believe this is how God works . . . when you read through the Bible, you find out that God helps plenty of folks who can't help themselves. Fully relying on God is not getting God to help us by first helping ourselves.

barb

[RJs here]

{note to dd.....}


please don't think I was coming down on you!!


I just thought if that particular writer was going to blast Joel every way to Sunday -- that I wanted to know MORE INFO about that writer.....


(and didn't exactly like what I saw either.....)



Many times, I think cameron is right -- preachers, esp. when they get to a certain "stage" of popularity ~ are often times jealous of each other (hey! we're ALL human!) and therefore, SEEK to "find dirt" on each other.


Now, on one hand, I tend to think Joel & family may perhaps "flaunt" their wealth to some degree -- I mean, after all, how many ppl can REALLY AFFORD a 1 million + home??! :confused


And like I say -- I did fully agree with SOME points that Rand made.


But he lost a LOT of credibility in my books -- once I further investigated his site to find out he believes in Calvinism!! :freaked


Anyway -- just coming back on here to say -- it was nothing "personal" towards you!! :wave

[ddlewis86]

Anyway -- just coming back on here to say -- it was nothing "personal" towards you!!


Oh, I know it wasn't. And I hope you know I wasn't getting personal with you either.:): I appreciate your input very much. I think that Rands "RANTS" are a bit :argue but, as you have said, you can pick up on a few good points as well. God bless you and I look forward to chatting with you in the future!:nod

[BaylorBrat]

Originally posted by Creeper


Please tell me what y'all think of Joel



Who???

Peace in Christ,
BB :):

[matt]

Went to see Ol' Joel live at Lakewood church down here in Houston, Tx. They must read a different Bible. Not that they refered to it during the service. The whole premis of his sermon was choose to be happy.

Quite a production. What you don't see on TV is his wife twisting the screws to the folks in the crowd to tithe. Up front telling everyone that they need to have faith in God to provide and not worry about having enough money! (Wearing a designer suit that cost more than many of the folks in the audience make in 2 days of honest work)

The choir practice before the telecast was also less than Christian. You should have heard the lead singer barking at the choir.

During the worship time, they had camera crews running all over the audience. It was something out of a Woody Allen Movie. People were just singing along until the camera came over, then the Holy Spirit himself indwelt them to worship as they have never done before, then the camera left and they went back to sleep.

When I was there, they were pushing people to sponsor a seat for the purchase of the Compaq center (where the Rockets play). $2500 per seat. and they were very clear that this was above and beyond your normal tithe. Why does a church need to own a sports arena? (I haven't been back to see if you can get a beer and a hot dog during church)

Now that they control the venue, they promote quality christian concerts like Christina Aguillera and Justin Timberlake (played last weekend). Their quality Christian videos can be seen on MTV for those of you who have never heard of them. I'll give you a hint, Christina is the half naked one.

How does "Discover the Champion in You" relate to salvation through Jesus Christ? It must, because they spend lots of money plastering it on Billboards on all of the highways in and out of town.

The church of Laodecia is alive and well in Houston, Tx.

Forgive my sarcasm, but the televised version just does not convey what is really going on there. Joseph Smith quotes more scripture in the book of Mormon than you are likely to hear at Lakewood.

[RJs here]

wow, Matt!! :freaked


well..... it's good to get it from the "horse's mouth" ~ I just merely mean from one who's BEEN THERE!!


THANKS for the first hand report!!


Okay ~ then the rest of us can stop "guessing" just by what we see on TV...... :freaked


So, some of our suspicions are very right then, it sounds like --- a.k.a. "Church of Laodecia".... :sigh




I'm sorry ~ I laughed out loud when I read this:

Originally posted by matt

Why does a church need to own a sports arena? (I haven't been back to see if you can get a beer and a hot dog during church)




:pound

[ddlewis86]

So are you saying it's more like salvation ala Tony Robbins?:pound

[cameron222]

But Joel does offer a call to Jesus Christ at the end of the sermons....does this still make him bad?

Maybe God is using him in a different way that the traditional pastors who tell you how bad you are and that you are a thief unless you tithe.

We are more than conqueors through Christ. How can we be a child of the King and not be a champion? :confused

Would it make you feel better if Mr. Olsteen lived in a doulble wide and didn't try to grow his ministry?

[ddlewis86]

do you just like to argue???:laugh :): :wave


By the way. Are you from Mississippi? I am originally from Jackson.

[cameron222]

Hi DD....I am from McComb. I like Joel Osteen but at this point I really do not know his full background. I like his type of preaching and think that we need more of it today. I am also a fan of Gerald Mann, perhaps the most honest and best preacher of all who teaches that we can start over after tragedy and setbacks and become conqueors.

I've had enough of the fire and brimstone bashers who lay guilt trips on God's people and try to make them feel unsaved. I serve a God who owns everything and I am His child. He shares with me as I have need and He has given me a brain with which to think and a body with which to work......and will even let me use them to become rich if that's His will for my life.

I would rather see an 80 million dollar complex dedicated to God's work than a 100 million dollar stadium dedicated to drunks watching a football game on Sunday evening.

God's people should have the very best!!

[RJs here]

**YES**!!!!


I can personally vouch, dd ~ that cameron DOES like to argue!!!


:pound


I'm laughing -- but I'm also dead serious.....


we go into the ring a LOT!! :argue



and then we :kiss and make up.


Then, the next day: :frusty


followed by: :yell


and some times I just have to do this: :tape


hehhe!!!!


He is one of my best *sparring buddies* on this whole board. I love him in the love of the Lord ~ he IS a brother! And yet, he can give me a run for my money at times! :freaked



Okay ~ that being said!...... ;):


cameron -- my comments had DIDDLY *SQUAT* to do with whether Osteen lives in a multi-million dollar mansion and has 10 full time maids stationed in every room ~ or whether he lives in a SINGLE WIDE trailer, without real carpeting to cover the dirt floors..... :rolleyes


But rather -- it has to do with his "feel good" POSITIVE messages he brings -- with very little Scripture.


You yourself once mentioned the WOF guys are just doing positive speeches inside church walls ~ to get the "church deduction" {I forgot exactly how you phrased it -- but you did a bang up job....}

Wellllll ~ Osteen is WOF, too!!! What makes HIM any different?? :confused {not being sarcastic -- just seeing if you can REALLY provide an answer!}


have you EVEN READ any of these links provided?? Forget the money, Honey!! ~ but READ THE LINKS & then SEE FOR YOURSELF if you think he falls into the Laodecia category.....


Truth is -- I would have trouble definitely making up my mind one way or another without attending...... simply b/c he DOES bring Jesus into the picture.

Yet, how many FALSE teachers do that??

It's that 5% of cyanide that's STILL poisonous.

As I say -- I'm not making a call one way or another -- but you'd better believe I *AM* suspicious of what I hear. And with EVERY preacher -- we should always test his words against Scripture, huh!??

Do we agree on THAT??

Can I get an "AMEN"~?? :wave

[Patty T]

Originally posted by cameron222
There is also a "jealousy factor" among some Christian leaders. If someone like young Mr. Olsteen is growing a dynamic ministry at a record rate, then the competition must see to it that he is doesn't get too big for his britches. Thus far, I have found nothing wrong with Joes Osteen and it appears that God is blessing his efforts in a huge way.......go Joel!!

Amen and amen Cameron.


Patty

[Patty T]

Originally posted by cameron222
Hi DD....I am from McComb. I like Joel Osteen but at this point I really do not know his full background. I like his type of preaching and think that we need more of it today. I am also a fan of Gerald Mann, perhaps the most honest and best preacher of all who teaches that we can start over after tragedy and setbacks and become conqueors.

I've had enough of the fire and brimstone bashers who lay guilt trips on God's people and try to make them feel unsaved. I serve a God who owns everything and I am His child. He shares with me as I have need and He has given me a brain with which to think and a body with which to work......and will even let me use them to become rich if that's His will for my life.

I would rather see an 80 million dollar complex dedicated to God's work than a 100 million dollar stadium dedicated to drunks watching a football game on Sunday evening.

God's people should have the very best!!

Preach it brother Cameron!!!

Patty

[ddlewis86]

:thumb

[RJs here]

Originally posted by cameron222


God's people should have the very best!!

show us SCRIPTURE, Please!!!


Scriptures I read say give me NEITHER riches nor poverty.... {in Psalms}


Be content with what money you have......


and certainly to "NOT LAY UP TREASURES for yourselves down here....."



Pretend we're all from Missouri and SHOW US where the Bible SPECIFICALLY SAYS that Christians should have the very best in the way of material possessions in this life?


?????????????????????

[ddlewis86]

YEAH

I thought we were supposed to be storing up riches in Heaven.:D:

The rich man asked Jesus how to get into heaven. Jesus told him to sell all of His posessions and follow Him. That dude got mad and left!:mad

[cameron222]

RJ....Ever heard of King David, Solomon, Abraham, Job? All very wealthy folks.

How would the gospel grow unless God raised up people of wealth to help fund His work? Joseph of Aramatheia (a rich man) provided the tomb for Jesus' burial.

God gives us good measure, shaken down, running over......if we but trust Him and work with what Her has given us.

We have not because we ask not!!

[cameron222]

Make that "He"....not "Her".:frusty

[RJs here]

point well taken.....

even so, I still do NOT see in Scripture where we are supposed to PRAY for wealth!!??


:confused


Show me -- I want to begin praying right away!! :D:


Got some heavy duty interest-eating credit card debt, I'd like nothing better than to PAY OFF!!

[cameron222]

Same God today as when this was written

1 Chronicles 4
10 Jabez cried out to the God of Israel, "Oh, that you would bless me and enlarge my territory! Let your hand be with me, and keep me from harm so that I will be free from pain." And God granted his request.

RJ......where I draw the line on the wealth preachers is those who intentionally peddle a con artists type of guilt gospel to get money for THEMSELVES.

But a man who is after God's own heart, intent on helping his fellow man (not fleecing him) is entitled to whatever blessings God may send his way.

I would bet that Adrian Rigers (my favorite of all preachewrs) lives in a nice home and makes quiet a bit above minimum wage....and he deserves all of it......IMO!! :B: :kiss

[RJs here]

*WOW* :freaked


RJ FAINTS!!!! :B:


cameron and I "actually agree" on something.......


{you folks heard it here FIRST!! *snort*.....}


Adrian Rogers is MY favorite preacher, too!!!!!! :thumb


~ and you're probably right! ;):


<Gosh ~ it didn't even "hurt" for me to say that you're likely right, cameron!!>


:pound


see ya' tomorrow, Sam!! <---- my joke alone -- that will take you all night to figure out!! ;):

[Creeper]

RJ are you okay? :heh


Thanks so much, all of you! :wave

Matt special thanks to you, for giving me an inside look...:nod

[RJs here]

Originally posted by Creeper
RJ are you okay? :heh



yep!!

:laugh

[MFerris]

Originally posted by RJs here
*WOW* :freaked


RJ FAINTS!!!! :B:


cameron and I "actually agree" on something.......


{you folks heard it here FIRST!! *snort*.....}


Adrian Rogers is MY favorite preacher, too!!!!!! :thumb


~ and you're probably right! ;):


<Gosh ~ it didn't even "hurt" for me to say that you're likely right, cameron!!>


:pound


see ya' tomorrow, Sam!! <---- my joke alone -- that will take you all night to figure out!! ;):


Okay, anyone got any dirt on Adrian Rogers?

[RJs here]

MFerris: :nono


we're not EVEN going to go there!! :doh


:B:

[cameron222]

Yes!! Dirt on Adrian Rogers. He's a sinner!! Gasp!

But he has been redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ and is committed to preaching His word.

He has a church with 27,000 members.

[RJs here]

*WOW*

cameron and I agree AGAIN!!!!!


:freaked



{surely ~ it MUST BE the end of the world as we know it!!


:pound


;):

[cameron222]

:clap RJ

[Karrinne]

I went to that deception in the church site. Frankly, it looks like sour grapes to me. Somebody wants all Christians to be poor and miserable with no hope of feeling happy. That is JUST MY OPINION, and if you disagree, that's fine. I am just so :sick tired of all these sites saying this and that and the other preacher/teacher are bad and wrong and misleading people.:frusty
If people are getting saved and genuinely want to see God, they will find out for themselves what things are good and which things are not. Most likely we ALL could go to a sermon by some minister or another and say, well, I don't believe that and that doesn't go along with what my preacher says and so forth. :tape2 BUT if we all agreed on everything, life would be boring. What I believe works for me, what you believe works for you and as long as we agree on the basics, salvation, faith, prayer, etc. and we're all going to Heaven, we have to trust God to show us the things He wants us each to know.:nod

[RJs here]

Originally posted by Karrinne
What I believe works for me, what you believe works for you and as long as we agree on the basics, salvation, faith, prayer, etc. and we're all going to Heaven, we have to trust God to show us the things He wants us each to know.:nod


I hear what you're saying and I even agree....up to a certain EXTENT......


'course, you phrased it well by saying AS LONG AS..... and that I agree with.


But the part about "as long as we're all going to heaven" ~ I just merely wanted to point out -- not for the sake of arguing, but just for the sake of any fence-sitting lurkers, that not ALL of us ARE going to heaven.

There are some who believe "wrong" plain & simple (1 Cor 15:2)

Now I know there are a LOT of names listed in that Deception in the Church site -- and I would not say I agree with EVERYTHING they have to say. But I can be bold & tell you there are some "preachers" I would not want to sit under..... ones like the Crystal Cathedral guy {Robt. Shuller}..... who preaches all tickle your ears stuff..... NOTHING about sin or repentance!! :freaked


Jesus Himself even says that unless you repent, you will likewise perish.


A person can think positive, feel-good, uplifting thoughts & STILL GO STRAIGHT TO HELL, unless he has repented, turned to Jesus, and follows Him.


So..... what any & all of us should do is check out & compare what preachers/teachers teach ~ and hold it up to THE WORD ~ any time & every time!! :thumb

[cameron222]

Karrinne you made some great points. Many Christians have no joy and think that misery in this life equals righteousness.

Just where is the cut off point for how much money a christian can have or how many square feet they can have in their house?:confused

God's people are hurting today and many are looking for answers to everyday problems. They need to be taught how to make money, deal with bad marriages, get out of debt, deal with their kids, etc., etc.

Thats why those preachers who address these issues have a packed house. Hurting peoples need answers not condemnation.

[chris_h]

Originally posted by comicnurse
Now, if this same old man sees a preacher on there preaching the "You're gonna go to you know where unless you repent" message, he will likely keep ahold of that remote and turn the channel.
cn, I must disagree! That call to repentance and righteousness is precisely what is needed! Why do you think that America and much of the American church has been going downt the tubes these past few months? Why do you think that 80-90% of the decisions for Christ made in the past quarter-century have ended up as backsliders?

Because we have lost the truth of Biblical evangelism, and the church is not on fire for its true mission, evangelism, saving that which is lost, and proclaiming righteousness and absolute Truth!

Now, what we don't need is hellfire preaching. That would definitely turn people off. What we need is someone who can relate to the people, who can make jokes and yet at the same time convict with the Law of God.

That's why I love Ray Comfort. He's absolutely hilarious (most of his jokes are at himself and his personal experiences—and boy, what experiences!), but that ol' New Zealander can be serious as they come, especially about evangelism.



Wow, you'd never think that an 18-year old would endorse conviction and repentance preaching, would'ya?

RJ, it is the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine. Edit: The two statements that I've deleted lead to the conversation between me, Christine, and RJs here for the next page or so.

[RJs here]

Originally posted by chris_h


RJ, it is the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine. Though, it would appear as though you don't.




:tsk


Brother Chris ~ pray tell ~ WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE *YOU* TALKING ABOUT???????


Show me, just SHOW ME anywhere on this board where I don't preach over & over again that we could be a mere 10 minutes (or less) away from eternity!!!!!!!


The joke earlier in this thread DIRECTED TO CAMERON was a *JOKE* brother ~ nothing more than a joke!!! ~ of which, most casual readers should be able to understand!!}


At any given moment ~ on any given day now -- I literally expect Jesus to pop thru' the clouds & come for His own!!!!!







Now ~ am I some how here misunderstanding you?? :confused

Are you saying that YOU "feel fine" and I don't??


No brother -- that's TEE-TOTALLY wrong, too!!!!


I have my days (don't we ALL!!??) where I get FED UP with the news!!!!! Some times if I have to listen to one more person getting raped, mugged, killed, beaten, tortured, abused..... I think I'm going to lose it....


But I personally feel JUST FINE!!!!! And do my best to keep my life balanced, and encourage myself in the Lord.



Now ~ if this, however, is indeed meant as a personal attack, of which I'm clueless as why you would decide to single me out.... but anyway...... (:confused) ~ come on!!! I'm PMS'ing real good & willing to take anybody on right now!!

;): :wacko

:laugh


Why in the world are you bumping up a 2 month old thread anyway??


/boxing gloves on or off.... depending on if they're needed!! ;):

[RJs here]

and one more thing, Chris ~ as you so adamently felt a need to point out that you live in a small size dorm.....


just "FTR" ~ I was not picking on the rich OR the poor.


Personally, I just do not see it in Scripture that a Christian is SUPPOSED to automatically inherit all kinds of earthly riches.


Just merely making a COMPARISON ~ that was ALL!!!

[TonyLee]

edit: decided to just say nothing about the subject. :):

[Christine]

Hi RJ!

I think he was following a link to this thread that was posted in another thread tonight:

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?threadid=104557

[RJs here]

Tony Lee ~ heheh!! whether you're "for" OR "against" ~ you probably made the smartest move here tonight!!

:tape


;): I can understand & respect that!!


Hi ya' Christine ~ wow, "warm fuzzies" all over THAT thread, too, huh!? :freaked ;):


Funny ~ you just mention some of the TBN preachers & we all start going :fish **BONKERS** ~ ganging up, and beating the tar out of each other!!


Nah ~ I really think Chris was referring to *THIS* thread ~ as my name has been on this one several times ~ and not on that other one at all. So he wouldn't just arbitralily /sp? pick me out from the OTHER one.


That & the fact that he took it PERSONALLY when I mentioned {several posts ago} that it didn't matter if Joel lived in a 10 million $ home ~ or a double wide trailer.....


Oh well ~ no matter......

Chris, the reason I absolutely did the :jaw with you singling me out ~ was b/c I have been following your posts this past week or so with GREAT interest, we've been agreeing on a LOT of things.... and then *WHAMO* ~ it was like getting socked in the eye with your little comment here.


But let's make up, forgive & move on, eh??


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wow ~ is there like "something in the air" tonight or what!!??

:freaked



eta: oh, oh, OH!!! :doh ~ I gotcha' now Christine!! ~ you were answering why Chris decided to bump up this old thread!!

Okay ~ gotcha' now!!

[chris_h]

Originally posted by RJs here
:tsk


Brother Chris ~ pray tell ~ WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE *YOU* TALKING ABOUT???????


Show me, just SHOW ME anywhere on this board where I don't preach over & over again that we could be a mere 10 minutes (or less) away from eternity!!!!!!!


The joke earlier in this thread DIRECTED TO CAMERON was a *JOKE* brother ~ nothing more than a joke!!! ~ of which, most casual readers should be able to understand!!}


At any given moment ~ on any given day now -- I literally expect Jesus to pop thru' the clouds & come for His own!!!!!







Now ~ am I some how here misunderstanding you?? :confused

Are you saying that YOU "feel fine" and I don't??


No brother -- that's TEE-TOTALLY wrong, too!!!!


I have my days (don't we ALL!!??) where I get FED UP with the news!!!!! Some times if I have to listen to one more person getting raped, mugged, killed, beaten, tortured, abused..... I think I'm going to lose it....


But I personally feel JUST FINE!!!!! And do my best to keep my life balanced, and encourage myself in the Lord.



Now ~ if this, however, is indeed meant as a personal attack, of which I'm clueless as why you would decide to single me out.... but anyway...... (:confused) ~ come on!!! I'm PMS'ing real good & willing to take anybody on right now!!

;): :wacko

:laugh


Why in the world are you bumping up a 2 month old thread anyway??


/boxing gloves on or off.... depending on if they're needed!! ;):
RJ, as brothers in Christ, I can honestly say....









I was joking about both of those things! When I said, "it would appear as though you don't," it was a joke in reference to when you said,
Originally posted by RJs here
*WOW*

cameron and I agree AGAIN!!!!!


:freaked



{surely ~ it MUST BE the end of the world as we know it!!


:pound


;):
I'm sorry that I said it, and I'll edit it out as soon as I post this.

I wasn't meaning anything about my dorm size meaning me being rich or poor. That doesn't mean squat to me, unless somehow I can turn any money I make into a way to please God and spread His Word.

Christine, as I said to RJ, my comments to him were jokes about him and Cameron agreeing, which he himself was joking about.

And "FTR," I agree with ya 100% about the needing of the teaching of repentance and conviction. Read the first four paragraphs of my post.

If you wanna take someone on, go to Apolo and join my "Put in on Faith" thread.

I swear, Surgeaholic must have spiked my decaf when I wasn't looking! Either it was that or the four packets of sugar I put in...

Yes, I put four packs of sugar in my decaf! I like my coffee sweet!

Oy, I'm gonna have to go to bed soon.

[seeker42]

“What does the resurrection mean to you and me today living in the year 2000? Number one. Our sins have already been forgiven…… But listen to me carefully, friends, this is so important. None of this will do you any good unless you rise up and begin to act on it. Do you know you can still die and go to hell even though your sins have already been forgiven? What a tragedy. But if you don't accept this forgiveness and make Jesus the Lord of your life, it's not going to do you any good.” [Sermon: The Truth of the Resurrection.]

-----
The following article is by Rand Winburn

He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word, and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. (Matt. 13:22)

Dear Deceived Lakewood Churchgoers & Television Viewers:

I write this letter of rebuke and warning, not because Jesus appeared to me in a vision, not because the Holy Ghost came to me in a second anointed filling, not because God the Father teleported me to the Third Heaven for a personal meeting, but because the Word of God, the very Bible which you hold up and confess, commands me to do so.

It is true your church has leased the Compaq Center in Houston for $12 million dollars. It is also true you desire to renovate and improve the Center for an estimated additional $70 million.

[Artist’s rendering of Lakewood Compaq Center after $70 million renovation. Lakewood is determined to give St. Peter’s Basilica a run for its money.]

And it is true your church encourages Christians to ‘Sponsor-A-Seat’ in the nearly 18,000 seat Center at a cost of $2,500 per to pay for the rebuilding effort.

However, it is also true that Jesus sent His Apostles out to preach the Gospel providing neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in their pockets, nor scrip for their journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves; for the workman is worthy of his meat. Yet Lakewood Church requires $70 million dollars more to do the work of Jesus, showing little of that supernatural faith which they and their leaders claim.

‘Discover the Champion in You’ – Lakewood’s Gospel of Greed

Under the new leadership of Joel Osteen, son of the late founder, John, Lakewood Church has grown in church attendance, tithes and television markets. It has also provided numerous benefits to Joel, including a $1 ¼ million dollar home. [Source: http://north-valley.com/realestate_board/messages/157.html ] One can only imagine the number of servants needed to keep this busy, professional, prosperous, religious household of four afloat and fed. One can also only imagine the budget needed to keep the Osteens cloaked in Neiman Marcus’ finest.

Never short on million-dollar smiles and warm, humorous anecdotes, many about ‘Daddy,’ Senior Pastor Joel, an Oral Roberts University dropout, exudes confidence and success. Certainly, in worldly terms, he has achieved this at the young age of 39, thanks to the multitudes of deceived tithing Lakewood churchgoers. In what is no less than a meteoric rise to prominence, Joel Osteen has invented an extremely lucrative career as a ‘Christian’ Motivational Speaker, having worked diligently for years behind the scenes supervising the television production of his father’s services. Awarding himself the title of pastor, ‘one who feeds his flock,’ Joel reluctantly took the torch passed to him by his dying father. Today, boosted by his sudden and unexpected success, a confident Pastor Joel urges his disciples to discover the champion in you, teaching them weekly how they, too, can achieve their dreams and hearts’ desires. God wants to reward his congregation and viewers abundantly, he tells them, if only they would use the principles the Word-Faith Teachers have discovered to tap into this divine treasure trove.

Pastor Osteen’s positive brand of non-offensive Christianity, purposefully omitting the Lord’s thousands of warnings, pleases the masses, earning him accolades in the American ‘Christian’ Word-Faith, Pentecostal/Charismatic community. However, when one examines Osteen’s ministry by the searchlight of the Word of God, one quickly finds discrepancies between the teachings of Osteen and the teachings of Jesus.



Osteen Preaches a False Gospel


“What does the resurrection mean to you and me today living in the year 2000? Number one. Our sins have already been forgiven…… But listen to me carefully, friends, this is so important. None of this will do you any good unless you rise up and begin to act on it. Do you know you can still die and go to hell even though your sins have already been forgiven? What a tragedy. But if you don't accept this forgiveness and make Jesus the Lord of your life, it's not going to do you any good.” [Sermon: The Truth of the Resurrection.]

“And some of you today don’t want to come to God because you say, "Joel, you know, you’re talking about some things I don’t understand." Listen, this is what you need to understand. Your sins have already been forgiven if you will only accept the gift. The price has already been paid.” [Sermon: What the Resurrection means to us as believers.]

If the price has already been paid and the sins forgiven every sinner ever born, as Osteen falsely preaches, then God is an unjust God who demands payment for sins twice: once by His innocent Son on the cross, who was punished in the stead of His people; then again from the non-accepting sinner whom He sends to Hell to undergo eternal punishment. Not even the secular judicial system requires payment from the exonerated defendant. Once declared ‘not guilty,’ he can never be tried or punished for the same crime again. Yet Pastor Joel preaches a God more unjust than sinful men.

If the price has already been paid and the sins forgiven every sinner ever born, as Osteen falsely preaches, then Christ’s sacrifice was not sufficient, nor did He render to the Father full satisfaction and expiation for sin, because many on that Great Day of Judgment will, to no avail, cry, ‘But, Lord, Lord,’ as they are cast into the Lake of Fire, (Matt. 7:21-23).

If the price has already been paid and the sins forgiven every sinner ever born, as Osteen falsely preaches, then Christ’s last words, It is finished, is a lie, for He had finishing nothing without the cooperation of the sinner in receiving His atoning sacrifice. Thus, in Osteen’s reality, Christ’s atonement is incomplete, unfinished, without man’s assent. Salvation provided by Christ is null and void without man’s decision for Christ.

In Osteen’s unconscionable Gospel, every human being has already been forgiven his sins, yet many are going to Hell. This is no Good News. What, pray tell, is ‘good’ about the Gospel which states that God loves you, has forgiven you all your sins, yet you may still go to Hell? This is the Gospel of the devil.

Osteen Preaches a False Christ

In preaching a false Gospel, Osteen, of necessity, preaches a false Christ. The Christ he worships is under bondage to the will of man, ever so careful not to overstep the bounds of man’s alleged free will decision either for Him or against Him. Christ’s will is subservient to man’s will. Thus, in Osteen’s reality, man is the greater God, for the Lord is always greater than the servant, Matt. 10:24.

Osteen’s Christ takes extreme pleasure in blessing Christians with material blessings, those things beloved, esteemed and sought by the world. In Joel’s theology, a Christian may love the world and the things therein, while the love of the Father still remains in him. Osteen’s Christ allows Christians to worship both God and mammon to no eternal danger of their souls.

Osteen’s Christ saves none outright, though He has paid the price for all, though He has forgiven all. His Christ only saves those who agree to being saved. His Christ willingly shares the glory of salvation with man who, by his wise and holy free will decision, makes Christ’s sacrifice successful. His Christ, though called ‘Savior,’ fails to save most of the world, to His shame and humiliation.

And if people can ever really see how good our God is, they'll come running to Him.” [Sermon: The Great Commission]

Though Christ never sinned, doing only good, and telling only truth, He was beaten, mocked, tortured and crucified. This is how religious men, who read and studied the Scriptures, received Him. Though Christ was a Rock of Offense and a Stone of Stumbling, Pastor Osteen would have unregenerate sinners welcome his false Christ with open arms of love. And why wouldn’t they? Pastor Joel preaches a ‘kinder, gentler, worldlier’ Christ. One who does not offend. One who asks nothing of them. One who does not require man to lose his life to gain it. One who does not judge. One who promises to abundantly bless men with the riches beloved of the world. One who simply cheers Christians on to victory over the world, the flesh and devil, for We Are the Champions. One who has no cross for men to carry. One whose will is frustrated by man at every turn. One who has forgiven the world, yet cannot save the world, try as He may. One whose primary attribute is love, yet His love fails more often than not, sending multitudes to the eternal pains of Hell.

[RJs here]

Chris: :kiss


we're fine now, bud!!


by tomorrow ~ it will all be forgotten.


Boy, for a minute there ~ thought I was going to have to pray a "double portion" of blessings over you!! ~ :D: which, heheh -- I try to do when I get ticked off......


Okay: :kiss


sorry for yet another slobbery kiss there.


From now on, you & I shall both have to clarify when we are *JOKING*, huh!? ~ :D:


BTW, FTR ~ "guys" {as you're referring to me as being one.....} do not "PMS"!! ~ ;):

Though, I suppose they still *experience it* from time to time!! :pound


Goodnight!! :wave

[seeker42]

Osteen Preaches a False Christianity

“I remember that story that Brother Hagin told. Kenneth Hagin, you all know him. He saw Jesus several times in his lifetime. He’s still alive. But he told about the first time that he saw Jesus. He fell down. He was overwhelmed with emotion. And he fell down on his face. You can imagine. Just lying flat on the ground. And he said, "I put my hands on Jesus’ feet and then I put my forehead on my hands." And I began to cry out, "I’m not worthy, Jesus. I’m not worthy, Jesus. I’m not worthy to be in Your presence. I’m not worthy to look on Your face." And Jesus spoke to him in a sharp military command. He said, "Son, stand up." And Brother Hagin stood up. He thought he was in trouble, you know. He stood up. And Jesus spoke to him sternly. He said, "Son, you are worthy. You are worthy because I shed My blood to make you worthy." See, friends, it’s nothing we’ve done, but God has made us worthy.” [Sermon: No Condemnation]

Though Kenneth Hagin is an infamous false prophet of the Word-Faith heresy movement, known and exposed worldwide as such, Joel Osteen calls him, ‘brother,’ revealing Osteen’s real spiritual kinship. Though Mr. Hagin wouldn’t know the true Jesus if his life depended upon it (which it does), Pastor Osteen naïvely believes every lying wonder told him by this false prophet, a prodigious religious actor. His public endorsement of Hagin is that which Lakewood needs, if they, too, will behave as this present writer has witnessed Hagin behave, (via videotape), howling, screeching, cackling, and wailing like a banshee on assignment from Satan. Accompanying Hagin at this particular demonic inculcation was that All-American Christian couple, Ken & Gloria Copeland.

Though he claims no inherent worthiness in man, as noted in the above quote, Pastor Osteen speaks out of both sides of his mouth. Due to his errant, unbiblical view of man, Osteen believes there is worthiness in sinful men, Christ foreseeing some would receive His free gift of salvation, thereby choosing, electing and predestinating them for the Kingdom of God. But Scripture declares the opposite: your righteousness (and worthiness), says the Lord, are as filthy rags, Isaiah 64:6. There is none righteous, no not one; There is none that understand, there is none that seeketh after (the true) God…There is none that doeth good, no not one, Romans 3:10-18. Deceived of Lakewood, God has not foreseen one sinner’s worthy, righteous choice of Christ. He has made His sheep acceptable in Christ, 1 Peter 2:5; Eph. 1:6, by sovereignly and efficaciously giving them the gifts of saving grace, including repentance and the very faith to believe on Christ, imputing Christ’s righteousness to their account. Our righteousness is Christ alone, Him alone being worthy, even after we have been adopted into the family of God: Jeremiah 23:6; 2 Cor. 5:21; Rev. 5:12. John the Baptist, though filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb, reflected a true humble Christian spirit by declaring the very shoes of Christ he was not worthy to bear, Matt. 3:11.

“God is a good God. He wants to bless us. He wants to give us the desires of our heart. But if we don’t watch it, it’s through our own doubt and unbelief that we’re reaching up there and we’re cutting back the flow of God’s blessings and His supernatural power in our lives.” [Sermon: Don’t Limit God]

This is another prime example of Osteen’s preaching that sinful man has dominion and superiority over God. The Lord so desperately wants to give us our hearts desires, but we frustrate His will of blessing for our lives, teaches Pastor Joel. Yet Scriptures declare a God whose will cannot fail to achieve its purposes:

All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? (Daniel 4:35)

“No, this new generation, this new army, it’s you and it’s me. It’s all of us. We have such an unshakable confidence in God. We understand our rights and our privileges. We understand our God-given authority in the name of Jesus. We understand that Satan is already defeated 2,000 years ago. We understand that he’s under our feet. We understand that there’s nothing impossible to us if we only believe. And I believe this new generation, they dare the enemy to come around. They get excited if he comes around because they enjoy slapping him upside the head a couple of times. (Applause)” [Sermon: God’s Best Path for our Lives.]

As Pastor Osteen and this new generation of Word-Faith heretics, drunken with delusions of grandeur, revel in their ‘power’ over Satan, Satan and his minions celebrate their victory over Osteen and Lakewood Church as they sow, unhindered, a false Gospel, a false Christ, and a false Christianity via satellite worldwide.

Osteen Mocks the Doctrine of Eternal Damnation

“Listen; don’t dangle people over the fires of hell. Lisa and I always kid about you know we’re going to dangle them over the fires of hell. Listen, that doesn’t draw people to God. They know what kind of life they live. They know how bad they’ve lived. What you’ve got to do is talk about the goodness of God. Listen, it’s the goodness of God that brings people to repentance. It’s the goodness of God. One thing I always appreciated about my dad is that he instilled into us a good vision of who God was. We learned about a good God.” [Sermon: What the Resurrection means to us as believers]

Though Jesus Christ spoke on Hell more than any Apostle, Pastor Joel would dismiss it as offensive and a detriment to man’s salvation. Joel knows better than Christ as to what sinful, evil men need to hear. Yes, God is good to some, sovereignly giving them the gifts of repentance unto life, forgiveness of sins, saving faith, belief in the truth, good works and perseverance. But to the false prophets, false teachers, the reprobate and liars, He promises to give His holy and just wrath, fury and condemnation.

Osteen Introduces a New Sacrament Guaranteed to Give Grace: the Sinner’s Prayer

“If you’ll bow your heads in prayer, let me just say something to those of you who are viewing by television. Maybe some of you have never asked Jesus into your heart. You know it’s not a difficult thing to do. You just have to pray a prayer and mean it from the bottom of your heart. Be sincere. Just say, Jesus, come in to my heart and save me. Be my Lord; be my Savior. Jesus, I repent of my sins and I turn my life over to You. You are now my Lord and my Savior and I’ll serve You all the days of my life.” [Sermon: Don’t Limit God]
Although this prayer of guaranteed salvation is nowhere to found in the infallible Word of God, Pastor Joel has discovered what may well be more popular in false Christianity than The Prayer of Jabez. Though Scripture declares man’s heart deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, Jeremiah 17:9, Pastor Joel would have us change that which is wicked, which loathes holiness, into a heart which is pure, loving holiness, by simply reciting a magical incantation for a few short seconds. That ‘confession’ commands God to send His saving grace, preaches Pastor Joel. Yet the many professing Christians whom Christ casts into the Lake of Fire, Matt. 7:23, did just that. They confessed the Sinner’s Prayer, yet remained dead in their sins and trespasses.

Have the Lakewood Faithful No Shame?

Though the Lakewood churchgoers and American television viewers live in the most prosperous country on earth, free of persecution and tyranny, enjoying privileges and conveniences unknown to centuries of Christian people worldwide, even those living today, still they want more. A Holy Ghost Prayer Pity Party to enlarge their borders is always a righteous cause, as they and their pastor stand by their steadfast, unswerving faith, arms held high, confessing it their sovereign birthright, according to God’s many promises, that they enjoy an even richer, less burdensome, tribulation-free, sickness-free, Christian life. And may the Lord have special mercy on those who have missed a Lexus payment or two.

To believe this selfish, self-serving fiction the Lakewood Laodiceans must willfully ignore innumerable Scriptures which oppose such teaching, as well as close their eyes and ears to the factual history of the Christian Church.

Christ Warns Bigger is not Better

Christ tells a parable concerning small beginnings in Matt. 13:31-32. These parables are known as Kingdom Parables because their subject is the professing Christian Church on earth. A mustard seed was sown which, though insignificant as far as seeds are concerned, grew to be the greatest herb. It then did something unnatural. The herb became a tree, so large that the birds of the air made the branches of the tree their home. Christ defined the birds of the air previously in verse 19 as being those of the wicked one, i.e., Satan. Thus, the parable of the mustard seed is a warning to Christians that the small, humble beginnings of the true Gospel and true Christ will be perverted into that which it is not, thereby attracting evil spirits, multitudes of evildoers and false prophets who preach a false Christ and false Gospel.

Furthermore, Christ purposely uses the pronoun ‘few’ when speaking of those who find the narrow gate which leads to life. And should we neglect the hard truth that many are called, but few chosen?

[chris_h]

Whoops! I put this on the wrong thread. I really need sleep. Or to organize my IE windows better.

[Edit: Wait, no I didn't! Now, I REALLY need sleep!]:nod

[chris_h]

Cool, we're still buds!

However, I did once hear about how guys can have a kind of male PMS.

Oh crud, I should never have said that, all the girls on the board will be loving that evidence, and all the guys will be hating me that the cat's out of the bag. :frusty :frusty :frusty

[RJs here]

Chris: :pound


**GO TO BED!!**


:wacko



;):

[seeker42]

Osteen’s Metaphor of a Check Unbiblical

“We must understand that salvation is a completely and totally free gift. See, if you don’t do that, then what you’re trying to do is pay back your salvation with your good works. And God doesn’t want it to be that way. Because the problem is that one day you’re not going to be able to do as many good works you think you should. And then all of a sudden you’re going to feel condemned. See, that’s the way the enemy works. You’re trying to pay back your salvation. We don’t have to pay this back. It’s a free gift.

You see, there’s a big difference between something you’ve earned and something that’s free. Suppose your boss came to pay you this week and he gave you your paycheck. You probably did not have an overwhelming sense of gratitude. You probably didn’t have an overwhelming sense of gratitude because, you know why? You worked for that money. You earned it. The company owed you. You probably took it and you might have said, thank you.

But friends, listen, imagine this. If your boss came to you next week and he called you by name. He said, John, here’s your paycheck. He said, but John, even though you’ve been late every day this week, even though your attitude is very poor, even though your productivity is way down. Because I genuinely love you and appreciate you, I’m enclosing a $10,000 bonus in this week’s pay period. Do you know what would happen after you fainted? (Laughter) Listen, you’d probably roll over and kiss his feet. Do you know why? It was a free gift. You didn’t deserve it. You didn’t earn it. You didn’t have to work for it. And listen to this, you don’t even have to pay it back. It’s the gift of God.

See, we’ve got to understand the tremendous thing that God did for us in salvation. Really you know, we were all on our way to hell. You talk about a gift. Man, we should be grateful.” [Sermon: No Condemnation]



As pleasing as Pastor Osteen’s metaphor may seem to the natural mind, Scripture tells us, in innumerable ways and verses, that in the mind and heart of the unregenerate sinner, Christ is no $10,000 bonus. In fact, He has no value whatever.

Isaiah 53 describes Christ’s reception by His fellow Jews hundreds of years before He was born:

He hath no form or comeliness, and when we shall see him there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men……he was despised and we esteemed him not.”

So does Matthew 21:33-40:

“But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.”

To the natural man, the unregenerate sinner, Christ is worthless. Recently, this present writer actually received a check - a gift - for less than one dollar. This writer threw it away, disgusted and offended. In order for Osteen’s metaphor to remain consistent with God’s Word, we would have to add the awful truth that the sinner will always despise Christ, our ‘Check,’ as being of no value, worthless, offensive and foolish. The natural man, not being the recipient of saving grace, will rip up the check, treading it under his feet every time.

Pastor Osteen presents his congregation and viewing public with a counterfeit ‘check,’ a counterfeit Christ, which the ignorant and deceived gladly embrace without seeing if those things be so.

The Lord Commands His People Leave False Christianity

Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.(Rev. 18:4-5)

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial….Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing, and I will receive you. And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. (2 Cor. 6:14-18)

Though Pastor Joel frequently preaches God does not remember our sins of the past, he neglects to inform you, his congregation, that there are those whose sins He does not forget. They include Mystery Babylon, the Mother of Harlots, and her innumerable harlot daughters. All share the common errors of preaching and teaching a false Gospel, a false Christ and a false Christianity.

Had God Almighty willed, Christ could easily have been born in the television age. Imagine, handheld cameras could have captured Christ’s Sermons on the Mount, His Crucifixion and Resurrection in High Definition. These holy images could have then been preserved for all posterity to view again and again. The huge widescreen monitors placed above Pastor Osteen’s stage would have been an incredible vehicle to use to convince sinners of the truth of Christ. Or would they?

In His unsearchable wisdom, the Lord has ordained that man be drawn to Christ, not by the building of multi-million dollar edifices, not by the performances of ‘Christian’ superstars, not by the personality, charisma and charm of the preacher, not by his folksy anecdotes and humor, not by his hair gel and Neiman Marcus suits, but by the Word of God, unedited, uncensored, uncompromised, spoken in Spirit and truth.

This writer quotes below Nicholas Ridley, excommunicated Bishop of London; words he wrote days before his burning martyrdom for Christ’s sake in 16th century England; words which refute the present-day Gospel of Greed overspreading modern-day professing evangelical Christianity; words which manifest who the true champions are:

“It is not as the wicked thinketh, that poverty, adversity, sickness, tribulation, yea painful death of the godly, be tokens that God doth not love them; but even clean the contrary, as all the whole course of Scripture doth evidently declare: for then He would never have suffered His most dearly beloved, the patriarchs, to have had such troubles, nor His prophets, apostles, martyrs and chief champions and maintainers of His truth and Gospel, so cruelly of the wicked to have been murdered and slain.” [John Foxe, Acts and Monuments, volume 7, p. 582.]

It is the sincere prayer of this present writer that Pastor Joel and you, his deceived congregation, would repent of your heresies and your sin of unbelief, that you would lose your selfish lives, pick up your cross and follow the true Christ, whose sufferings we, as Christians, are destined to suffer for his sake:

For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake. (Phil. 1:29)

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of God. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs of Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:16-18)

In Christian love of the whole counsel of God,

Rand Winburn
Director
Protestant Reformation Publications

Source:

http://www.iconbusters.com/iconbusters/docs/letter/letter.htm

:confused

[chris_h]

Originally posted by RJs here
Chris: :pound


**GO TO BED!!**


:wacko



;):
Yes, sir. :pout

[trudges off to bed, while roommate stares and wonders what the heck is going on.]

[chris_h]

seeker, right on! :thumb

Yes RJ, I know I said I would go to bed, but you think I wanna change in front of my roommate?

I will say this, this little tiff's gonna do wonders for our post counts!

[chris_h]

Actually, I just realized something: it may not be SURGEAHOLIC's fault. You see, my mom claims that the reason we stopped going to church when I was little was that I would get so hyperstimulated that I couldn't eat or sleep until Tuesday.

Well, I went to church today.


It's gonna be a long day and a half.....

[RJs here]

no doubt, Mark and/or Christine will need to take the "pruning shears" to this'n! :P:


But "perhaps" something good can still come of it..... we'll be a shining example of .....



you called me a *what*?? :freaked


well ~ hey, guy, you can get over it!!?? :wacko


and well ~ WHAT did you mean by *THAT*???!!!! :doh


tapping feet,..... still waiting!!! :mad


:yell


:argue



and then, next thing you know -- we're overcoming our misunderstandings and making up!! :kiss


So anyway -- I apologize.

And you can forgive me?



///sorry, folks ~ for all the interruptions here on this Joel Osteen thread......

for a minute there, bet you misunderstood and thought the thread was about Chris and RJ!


:spit


Goodnight ~ FOR REAL this time!! I'm going to go see what DH is doing....

I think he's in there watching Joel Osteen!! :laugh

[chamberszion]

Hi I'm a lurker, who rarely post, for the most part I like Joel, they are refreshing, but sometimes tend to be along the same lines each week. Was wondering if maybe during med week services, they get more into bible studies? Also I know most people on rr dont care for TBN, but here again, I am interested in souls being saved, Im sure everyone would be shocked if we really knew how many precious souls were saved watching TBN. I know that on there telathones, they sometimes get carried away preaching on money, but Im sure it takes a great amount of money to run all the satelites & to keep putting up more, I dont know of any other Major Christian TV stations that reach as many people or as far over the world. There are some preachers that I like more than others, I just dont watch the ones I dont care for. I rarely watch anything on TV other than true movies or docamenteries, Just reg. TV is getting so bad, Christians may just begin to Love TBN.

IN JESUS, Carol

[seeker42]

You Cannot Go To Heaven Unless You Believe Jesus Went to Hell

There is no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth I am presenting. You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took your place in hell (p. 37).. [The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make Booklet, 1991 edition] Joyce Meyer has denied ever teaching this doctrine. However, I have this booklet as evidence.

Source:
http://www.raptureready.com/rapture/ssjm1.html

[seeker42]

I am interested in souls being saved, Im sure everyone would be shocked if we really knew how many precious souls were saved watching TBN.

I am sure that you believe this. My concern is how many people think that they are being saved, but are trusting either in a false Christ or the wrong Christ, and are therefore not saved at all.

IF some of these teachers have teachings that contradicts the Bible, if some of them contradict what the Bible says about 1) who Jesus is & claimed to be and 2) how to be saved, it is hard to understand how these leaders could be introducing their audiences to a Jesus they never really knew...

:confused

[chris_h]

Originally posted by RJs here
no doubt, Mark and/or Christine will need to take the "pruning shears" to this'n! :P:


But "perhaps" something good can still come of it..... we'll be a shining example of .....



you called me a *what*?? :freaked


well ~ hey, guy, you can get over it!!?? :wacko


and well ~ WHAT did you mean by *THAT*???!!!! :doh


tapping feet,..... still waiting!!! :mad


:yell


:argue



and then, next thing you know -- we're overcoming our misunderstandings and making up!! :kiss


So anyway -- I apologize.

And you can forgive me?
:spit :pound Of course, I already have, bro.

And now, we return you to your previously scheduled thread, already in progress thanks to seeker42 and chamberszion (P.S. Welcome!).

[seeker42]

Paul Crouch is a God


He [God] doesn't even draw a distinction between Himself and us...You know what else that's settled, then, tonight? This hue and cry and controversy that has been spawned by the Devil to try and bring dissension within the body of Christ that we are gods. I am a little god!...I have His name. I'm one with Him. I'm in covenant relation. I am a little god! Critics, be gone! (Praise The Lord, July 7, 1986)

Source:
http://www.raptureready.com/rapture/sspc3.html

[seeker42]

Price Not Paid At Cross

Do you think that the punishment for our sin was to die on a cross? If that were the case, the two thieves could have paid your price. No, the punishment was to go into hell itself and to serve time in hell separated from God...Satan and all the demons of hell thought that they had Him bound and they threw a net over Jesus and they dragged Him down to the very pit of hell itself to serve our sentence. (Ever Increasing Faith Messenger, June 1980.)

Source:
http://www.raptureready.com/rapture/ssfp1.html

[chris_h]

Those quotes show how incredibly stupid some people are in the Body of Christ (sorry for being blunt), believing these lies that are essentially spitting in Christ's face.

I do believe that there are Christians that follow this. For a while, my high school chemistry teacher was one of them. Great brother, but almost dragged me into it. Thankfully, I found RR, and found the truth. I'm pretty sure it opened the eyes of Mr. Logan too.

Originally posted by seeker42
I am sure that you believe this. My concern is how many people think that they are being saved, but are trusting either in a false Christ or the wrong Christ, and are therefore not saved at all.

IF some of these teachers have teachings that contradicts the Bible, if some of them contradict what the Bible says about 1) who Jesus is & claimed to be and 2) how to be saved, it is hard to understand how these leaders could be introducing their audiences to a Jesus they never really knew...

:confused
No doubt some do repent through these wackos, but then get sucked up into their message, and believe it for the rest of their lives. Again, my chem teacher was/is one of those. (really praying that it's not the present tense, and he got out of that!)

Those two points are the exact definition of a cult. They either get messed up on who Jesus is or claimed to be, or the way to be saved.

Yes, I got plenty of sleep. I didn't get up until 10 minutes ago. :thumb But let's try to stay on topic today, please.

[Docpro]

I know, a lot of these preachers deceive others and preach the word of God to "their" terms.

For example, about Joel Osteen, my family forces me to watch his show every night, otherwise I'm grounded from the computer. They want his words to touch my heart...

My anger for him grew worse and worse, but I pushed back because I thought I was the only one who felt this way...

If you checked my previous posts, you'd know that I believe that since he was born a millionaire, he can practice his thinking positively preachings because his life's easy. However, some people just aren't millionaires like him, nor do they have everything their heart desires...

Therefore, our outcomes are different, and I bet you if he didn't live a millionaire's life, or had misfortune in friendships and relationships, that he would also be singing a different tune.

He doesn't speak to me like he does many others, including my family... I just hate it because I'm forced to watch his show every night and hear his positive talk (which reminds me of what a liberal psychologist said to me).

So it's probably just that.

[Docpro]

My belief is that no matter who saves you.. whether it be a false or true preacher of God, if that person believes in their heart that they have Jesus, and asks Jesus to forgive them for their sins, then they are saved, regardless of preacher.

[lookinupval]

My belief is that no matter who saves you.. whether it be a false or true preacher of God, if that person believes in their heart that they have Jesus, and asks Jesus to forgive them for their sins, then they are saved, regardless of preacher. AMEN TO THAT, DAVID!

How long is Osteen's show? If it is half an hour, I would spend the entire time in quiet prayer while you are watching. Pray for the Osteen's, for the people who hear their message, and just have a little prayer session for everyone you know...if you have time, pray for our leaders, for Israel, for persecuted christians. You could turn this bad experience into something really positive for the Lord!

[cameron222]

Many Christians do not like good news. If someone is prospering it must be because they are getting it in a dishonest manner.

The christian message is good news and includes methods for rising out of poverty and living a prosperous life.

I watch Joes Osteen and he gives an invitation for Jesus at the end of his shows.....whats so wrong with that.....??

[Patty T]

Originally posted by cameron222
Many Christians do not like good news. If someone is prospering it must be because they are getting it in a dishonest manner.

The christian message is good news and includes methods for rising out of poverty and living a prosperous life.

I watch Joes Osteen and he gives an invitation for Jesus at the end of his shows.....whats so wrong with that.....??


cameron,

You are right - on all accounts.


Patty

[seeker42]

since he was born a millionaire, he can practice his thinking positively preachings because his life's easy. However, some people just aren't millionaires like him, nor do they have everything their heart desires...

This is kind of like listening to environmentalist teachers who preach about the beauty of the alien land, the nobility of the aboriginal tribe, the wisdom of hunting by hand chasing an animal with a spear for 10 miles...all the time preaching this while in the U.S., on a college campus, in an air conditioned room, and the closest these people have been to Africa or Asia is a Slide Show...

I can't help but notice if the power of God was operating in these health & wealth teachers, why they don't go to a 3rd world country, set up shop and start improving the Gross Domestic Product of those nations. Grass huts, epidemics of deseases to be cured from, what better place to test "health & wealth" gospel, than in poor & diseased areas...

That reminds of that book "God told me to tell you" about some of these preachers who preach a distorted gospel, which is often unsound and designed for the spiritually immature who have itching ears, and will surround themselves with a great multitute of teachers

[II Timothy 4: 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.]

I was thinking that maybe a way to watch some of these guys is with the volume very low, but then use the time to pray for conviction, and that the eyes of those who watch would be opened to the theological problems, and that something in their own spirit would speak against those who are not lined up with the Word of God.

If Paul wanted Health & Wealth, he could just have instructed all of the churches to give to him...we complain about the funds used in Catholic Cathedrals, but some of these TV preachers are starting to give the catholics some real competition....

[Docpro]

Originally posted by seeker42
This is kind of like listening to environmentalist teachers who preach about the beauty of the alien land, the nobility of the aboriginal tribe, the wisdom of hunting by hand chasing an animal with a spear for 10 miles...all the time preaching this while in the U.S., on a college campus, in an air conditioned room, and the closest these people have been to Africa or Asia is a Slide Show...

I can't help but notice if the power of God was operating in these health & wealth teachers, why they don't go to a 3rd world country, set up shop and start improving the Gross Domestic Product of those nations. Grass huts, epidemics of deseases to be cured from, what better place to test "health & wealth" gospel, than in poor & diseased areas...

That reminds of that book "God told me to tell you" about some of these preachers who preach a distorted gospel, which is often unsound and designed for the spiritually immature who have itching ears, and will surround themselves with a great multitute of teachers

[II Timothy 4: 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.]

I was thinking that maybe a way to watch some of these guys is with the volume very low, but then use the time to pray for conviction, and that the eyes of those who watch would be opened to the theological problems, and that something in their own spirit would speak against those who are not lined up with the Word of God.

If Paul wanted Health & Wealth, he could just have instructed all of the churches to give to him...we complain about the funds used in Catholic Cathedrals, but some of these TV preachers are starting to give the catholics some real competition....

Couldn't have said it better myself! :):

[billiefan2000]

bump

[Mom2Mayhem]

:thumb

Joel gets a thumbs up from me. When I have watched his services, they have been very good. I have yet to hear anything unbiblical.

[patriotjb]

Originally posted by seeker42
That reminds of that book "God told me to tell you" about some of these preachers who preach a distorted gospel, which is often unsound and designed for the spiritually immature who have itching ears, and will surround themselves with a great multitute of teachers

If Paul wanted Health & Wealth, he could just have instructed all of the churches to give to him...we complain about the funds used in Catholic Cathedrals, but some of these TV preachers are starting to give the catholics some real competition....

I was wondering where "The Preacher Police" had gone to. Although its probably more accurate to also call them "The Christian Prosperity police." Energies in this fearsome police force seem equally divided between:

A. attacking and flaming any Pastor/Preacher who does anything beyond verbatim readings from the Bible and

B. rooting out any Christian teachers/writers who actually make a decent living from their hard work as greedy, profit-making, avaricious, money-makers.

But overall I'm glad I found this thread because it reminds me that I just bought a set of twenty tapes to record Joel Osteen's sermons while I'm at Church on Sundays. He plays in Arizona at 5:00pm and I can't wait to start taping.

Joel Osteen rules!!!! That guy is filled with the Holy Spirit. Ya'll take care and keep up the good Policing!!

P.S. I don't like Joyce Meyers and some of the other WOF people mentioned any more than any sane Christian but even she doesn't deserve the treatment this Police force gives her. PEACE!

[billiefan2000]

bump