Question about leaven. Is it good or bad?

[Carlosabc]

My pastor gave a sermon about the parable concerning the "kindom of heaven" almost a year ago.

He mentioned about the woman who took the leaven till the whole was leavened.

He said that the women (during his sermon) was doing the Lord's work. My wife and I looked at each other when he said this.
Our studies in Bible tought the oppisite.

My question is,
*
why do some people say that the leaven is good?

*Where did they get this interpratation about the leaven being good?

3rd question.
*Could anyone point in the Bible where there is even the most remote insinuation that the leaven is good?

I look forward to your answers.

[linuxpenguin]

Originally posted by Carlosabc
My pastor gave a sermon about the parable concerning the "kindom of heaven" almost a year ago.

He mentioned about the woman who took the leaven till the whole was leavened.

He said that the women (during his sermon) was doing the Lord's work. My wife and I looked at each other when he said this.
Our studies in Bible tought the oppisite.

My question is,
*
why do some people say that the leaven is good?

*Where did they get this interpratation about the leaven being good?

3rd question.
*Could anyone point in the Bible where there is even the most remote insinuation that the leaven is good?

I look forward to your answers.


Are you speaking of this verse...

Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Yes, the leaven is good.

[antsinmypants]

yes, THAT leaven is good.

Otherwise, in the bible Leaven is likened unto sin... like-- during Passover, and in the parsha where Rav Sha'ul speaks and says "don't you know that a little leaven, leavens the WHOLE loaf?"

I have some stuff you might be interested in reading, but it's so long I'd hate to post it here.
It's more like the "print it out and read at leisure" kind... but it is Bible Study nonetheless.

[joint heir]

the leaven itself if not bad or good....it is just a illustration about "working through"

if you apply the idea of sin to the leaven then it is bad
if you apply the idea of the kingdom of heaven to leaven then it is good.....

How could the kingdom of heaven be bad? .,.....since the kingdom is like the leaven?

carlos...could you explain your understanding of this?

[antsinmypants]

Exo 12:14 "This day will be one for you to remember. This is a permanent law for generations to come: You will celebrate this day as a pilgrimage festival in the LORD'S honor.
Exo 12:15 For seven days you must eat unleavened bread. On the very first day you must remove any yeast that you have in your houses. Whoever eats anything with yeast in it from the first day through the seventh day must be excluded from Israel.
Exo 12:16 You must have a holy assembly on the first day and another one on the seventh. You must not work on these days except to prepare your own meals. That's all you may do.
Exo 12:17 You must celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread because it was on this very day that I brought you out of Egypt in organized family groups. This is a permanent law for future generations: You must celebrate this day.
Exo 12:18 From the evening of the fourteenth day of the first month until the evening of the twenty-first day you must eat unleavened bread.
Exo 12:19 There should be no yeast in your houses for seven days. Whoever eats anything with yeast in it must be excluded from the community of Israel, whether he is an Israelite or not.
Exo 12:20 Eat nothing made with yeast. Wherever you live, you must eat only unleavened bread."



Exo 13:3 Then Moses said to the people, "Remember this day-the day when you left Egypt, the land of slavery. The LORD used his mighty hand to bring you out of there. Don't eat anything made with yeast.
Exo 13:4 Today, in the month of Abib, you are leaving Egypt.
Exo 13:5 The LORD swore to your ancestors that he would give you the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Hivites, and Jebusites. When he brings you into that land flowing with milk and honey, you must observe this ceremony in this month.
Exo 13:6 "For seven days you must eat unleavened bread. The seventh day will be a pilgrimage festival in the LORD'S honor.
Exo 13:7 Only unleavened bread should be eaten during these seven days. No sourdough or yeast should be seen anywhere in your territory.
Exo 13:8 On that day tell your children, 'We do this because of what the LORD did for us when we left Egypt.'
Exo 13:9 This festival will be like a mark on your hand or a reminder on your forehead that the teachings of the LORD are always to be a part of your conversation. Because the LORD used his mighty hand to bring you out of Egypt,
Exo 13:10 you must follow these rules every year at this time.




Exo 34:25 "Never offer the blood of a sacrifice to me at the same time you offer anything containing yeast. No part of the sacrifice at the Passover festival should be left over in the morning.




Lev 2:11 "Every grain offering that you bring to the LORD must be prepared without yeast. Never burn yeast or honey as an offering to the LORD.
Lev 2:12 You may bring them to the LORD as offerings of your first products. But they must never be placed on the altar to make a soothing aroma.
Lev 2:13 Also put salt on each of your grain offerings. The salt of God's promise must never be left out of your grain offerings. Put salt on all your offerings.
Lev 2:14 "If you bring a grain offering to the LORD from the first grain you harvest, roast the cracked grain over fire.
Lev 2:15 Put olive oil on it, and place incense on it. It is a grain offering.
Lev 2:16 The priest will burn the flour, olive oil, and all the incense as a reminder. It is an offering by fire to the LORD."




Lev 6:14 "These are the instructions for the grain offering. Aaron's sons must bring it into the LORD'S presence in front of the altar.
Lev 6:15 One of them will remove a handful of flour from the grain offering, together with the olive oil and all the incense. He will burn it on the altar as a reminder. It is a soothing aroma to the LORD.
Lev 6:16 Aaron and his sons will eat the rest of it. They will eat unleavened bread in a holy place, in the courtyard of the tent of meeting.
Lev 6:17 Don't use yeast in baking the bread. I have given it to them as their share from the offerings by fire made to me. It is very holy like the offering for sin and the guilt offering.
Lev 6:18 Every male descendant of Aaron may eat it. It is a permanent law for generations to come regarding the offering by fire to the LORD. Everyone who touches it will become holy."


Lev 10:12 Moses told Aaron and his surviving sons Eleazar and Ithamar, "Take the grain offering left over from the offering by fire to the LORD. Make unleavened bread, and eat it next to the altar because it is very holy.
Lev 10:13 Eat it in a holy place because it is the part of the offering by fire to the LORD that belongs to you and your children. That is the command I received.
Lev 10:14 Also eat the breast presented to the LORD and the thigh that was given as a contribution. You and your sons and daughters may eat them in a clean place because they are your part of the fellowship offerings from the Israelites.



First fruits/pentecost (which means "counting to 50')

Lev 23:10 "Tell the Israelites: When you come to the land I am going to give you and you harvest grain, bring the priest a bundle of the first grain you harvest.
Lev 23:11 He will present it to the LORD so that you will be accepted. He will present it on the day after Passover.
Lev 23:12 On the day you present the bundle, you must sacrifice a one-year-old male lamb that has no defects as a burnt offering to the LORD.
Lev 23:13 Bring a grain offering of four quarts of flour mixed with olive oil with it. This will be a sacrifice by fire made to the LORD, a soothing aroma. Use one quart of wine for the wine offering.
Lev 23:14 Don't eat bread, roasted grain, or fresh grain until this same day, when you bring the offering to your God. It is a permanent law for generations to come wherever you live.
Lev 23:15 "Count seven full weeks from the day after Passover (the day you bring the bundle of grain as an offering presented to the LORD)
Lev 23:16 until the day after the seventh week. This is a total of fifty days. Then bring a new grain offering to the LORD.
Lev 23:17 Bring two loaves of bread from your homes to present to the LORD. Bake them with four quarts of flour. They are the first harvested grain for the LORD.
Lev 23:18 With the bread bring seven one-year-old lambs that have no defects, one bull, and two rams. They will be a burnt offering to the LORD. With these offerings also bring grain and wine offerings. They will be a sacrifice by fire, a soothing aroma to the LORD.



Amo 4:1 Hear this word, ye kine of Bashan, that [are] in the mountain of Samaria, which oppress the poor, which crush the needy, which say to their masters, Bring, and let us drink.
Amo 4:2 The Lord GOD hath sworn by his holiness, that, lo, the days shall come upon you, that he will take you away with hooks, and your posterity with fishhooks.
Amo 4:3 And ye shall go out at the breaches, every [cow at that which is] before her; and ye shall cast [them] into the palace, saith the LORD.
Amo 4:4 Come to Bethel, and transgress; at Gilgal multiply transgression; and bring your sacrifices every morning, [and] your tithes after three years:
Amo 4:5 And offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving with leaven, and proclaim [and] publish the free offerings: for this liketh you, O ye children of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
Amo 4:6 And I also have given you cleanness of teeth in all your cities, and want of bread in all your places: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.
Amo 4:7 And also I have withholden the rain from you, when [there were] yet three months to the harvest: and I caused it to rain upon one city, and caused it not to rain upon another city: one piece was rained upon, and the piece whereupon it rained not withered.



Mat 13:33 He used another illustration. "The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman mixed into a large amount of flour until the yeast worked its way through all the dough."
Mat 13:34 Jesus used illustrations to tell the crowds all these things. He did not tell them anything without illustrating it with a story.
Mat 13:35 So what the prophet had said came true: "I will open my mouth to illustrate points. I will tell what has been hidden since the world was made."



Mat 16:1 The Pharisees and Sadducees came to test Jesus. So they asked him to show them a miraculous sign from heaven.
Mat 16:2 He responded to them, "In the evening you say that the weather will be fine because the sky is red.
Mat 16:3 And in the morning you say that there will be a storm today because the sky is red and overcast. You can forecast the weather by judging the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times.
Mat 16:4 "Evil and unfaithful people look for a miraculous sign. But the only sign they will be given is that of Jonah." Then he left them standing there and went away.
Mat 16:5 The disciples had forgotten to take any bread along when they went to the other side of the Sea of Galilee.
Mat 16:6 Jesus said to them, "Be careful! Watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees!"
Mat 16:7 The disciples had been discussing among themselves that they had not taken any bread along.
Mat 16:8 Jesus knew about their conversation and asked, "Why are you discussing among yourselves that you don't have any bread? You have so little faith!
Mat 16:9 Don't you understand yet? Don't you remember the five loaves for the five thousand and how many baskets you filled?
Mat 16:10 Don't you remember the seven loaves for the four thousand and how many large baskets you filled?
Mat 16:11 Why don't you understand that I wasn't talking to you about bread? Watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees!"
Mat 16:12 Then they understood that he didn't say to watch out for the yeast in bread, but to watch out for the teachings of the Pharisees and Sadducees.


Mar 8:10 After that, Jesus and his disciples got into a boat and went into the region of Dalmanutha.
Mar 8:11 The Pharisees went to Jesus and began to argue with him. They tested him by demanding that he perform a miraculous sign from heaven.
Mar 8:12 With a deep sigh he asked, "Why do these people demand a sign? I can guarantee this truth: If these people are given a sign, it will be far different than what they want!"
Mar 8:13 Then he left them there. He got into a boat again and crossed to the other side of the Sea of Galilee.
Mar 8:14 The disciples had forgotten to take any bread along and had only one loaf with them in the boat.
Mar 8:15 Jesus warned them, "Be careful! Watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees and the yeast of Herod!"
Mar 8:16 They had been discussing with one another that they didn't have any bread.
Mar 8:17 Jesus knew what they were saying and asked them, "Why are you discussing the fact that you don't have any bread? Don't you understand yet? Don't you catch on? Are your minds closed?
Mar 8:18 Are you blind and deaf? Don't you remember?
Mar 8:19 When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many baskets did you fill with leftover pieces?" They told him, "Twelve."
Mar 8:20 "When I broke the seven loaves for the four thousand, how many large baskets did you fill with leftover pieces?" They answered him, "Seven."
Mar 8:21 He asked them, "Don't you catch on yet?"



Luk 12:1 Meanwhile, thousands of people had gathered. They were so crowded that they stepped on each other. Jesus spoke to his disciples and said, "Watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees. I'm talking about their hypocrisy.
Luk 12:2 Nothing has been covered that will not be exposed. Whatever is secret will be made known.
Luk 12:3 Whatever you have said in the dark will be heard in the daylight. Whatever you have whispered in private rooms will be shouted from the housetops.
Luk 12:4 "My friends, I can guarantee that you don't need to be afraid of those who kill the body. After that they can't do anything more.
Luk 12:5 I'll show you the one you should be afraid of. Be afraid of the one who has the power to throw you into hell after killing you. I'm warning you to be afraid of him.
Luk 12:6 "Aren't five sparrows sold for two cents? God doesn't forget any of them.
Luk 12:7 Even every hair on your head has been counted. Don't be afraid! You are worth more than many sparrows.
Luk 12:8 I can guarantee that the Son of Man will acknowledge in front of God's angels every person who acknowledges him in front of others.
Luk 12:9 But God's angels will be told that I don't know those people who tell others that they don't know me.
Luk 12:10 Everyone who says something against the Son of Man will be forgiven. But the person who dishonors the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
Luk 12:11 "When you are put on trial in synagogues or in front of rulers and authorities, don't worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say.
Luk 12:12 At that time the Holy Spirit will teach you what you must say."



Luk 13:20 And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God?
Luk 13:21 It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.



1Co 5:6 It's not good for you to brag. Don't you know that a little yeast spreads through the whole batch of dough?
1Co 5:7 Remove the old yeast of sin so that you may be a new batch of dough, since you don't actually have the yeast of sin. Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
1Co 5:8 So we must not celebrate our festival with the old yeast of sin or with the yeast of vice and wickedness. Instead, we must celebrate it with the bread of purity and truth that has no yeast.



Gal 5:5 However, in our spiritual nature, faith causes us to wait eagerly for the confidence that comes with God's approval.
Gal 5:6 As far as our relationship to Christ Jesus is concerned, it doesn't matter whether we are circumcised or not. But what matters is a faith that expresses itself through love.
Gal 5:7 You were doing so well. Who stopped you from being influenced by the truth?
Gal 5:8 The arguments of the person who is influencing you do not come from the one who is calling you.
Gal 5:9 A little yeast spreads through the whole batch of dough.
Gal 5:10 The Lord gives me confidence that you will not disagree with this. However, the one who is confusing you will suffer God's judgment regardless of who he is.

[antsinmypants]

Webster:

Leaven
LEAVEN, n. lev'n. [L. levo, Eng. to lift.]

1. A mass of sour dough, which, mixed with a larger quantity of dough or paste, produces fermentation in it and renders it light. During the seven days of the passover, no leaven was permitted to be in the houses of the Jews. Exo 12.

2. Any thing which makes a general change in the mass. It generally means something which corrupts or depraves that with which it is mixed.

Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Mat 16.

LEAVEN, v.t. lev'n.

1. To excite fermentation in; to raise and make light, as dough or paste.

A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. 1 Cor 5.

2. to taint; to imbue.



Vine:
Leaven (Noun and Verb)
<A-1,Noun,2219,zume>
"leaven, sour dough, in a high state of fermentation," was used in general in making bread. It required time to fulfill the process. Hence, when food was required at short notice, unleavened cakes were used, e.g., Gen_18:6; Gen_19:3; Exo_12:8. The Israelites were forbidden to use "leaven" for seven days at the time of Passover, that they might be reminded that the Lord brought them out of Egypt "in haste," Deu_16:3, with Exo_12:11; the unleavened bread, insipid in taste, reminding them, too, of their afflictions, and of the need of self-judgment, is called "the bread of affliction." "Leaven" was forbidden in all offerings to the Lord by fire, Lev_2:11; Lev_6:17. Being bred of corruption and spreading through the mass of that in which it is mixed, and therefore symbolizing the pervasive character of evil, "leaven" was utterly inconsistent in offerings which typified the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ.

In the OT "leaven" is not used in a metaphorically sense. In the NT it is used (a) metaphorically (1) of corrupt doctrine, Mat_13:33; Luk_13:21, of error as mixed with the truth (there is no valid reason for regarding the symbol here differently from its application elsewhere in the NT); Mat_16:6, Mat_16:11; Mar_8:15 (1st part); Luk_12:1; that the kingdom of heaven is likened to "leaven," does not mean that the kingdom is "leaven." The same statement, as made in other parables, shows that it is the whole parable which constitutes the similitude of the kingdom; the history of Christendom confirms the fact that the pure meal of the doctrine of Christ has been adulterated with error; (2) of corrupt practices, Mar_8:15 (2nd part), the reference to the Herodians being especially applied to their irreligion; 1Co_5:7-8; (b) literally, in Mat_16:12, and in the general statements in 1Co_5:6; Gal_5:9, where the implied applications are to corrupt practice and corrupt doctrine respectively.

<B-1,Verb,2220,zumoo>
signifies "to leaven, to act as leaven," Passive Voice in Mat_13:33; Luk_13:21; Active Voice in 1Co_5:6; Gal_5:9.


Torrey:
Leaven
Used in making bread
Hos_7:4;

Diffusive properties of
1Co_5:6;

FORBIDDEN
During the feast of the passover
Exo_12:15-20;

To be offered with blood
Exo_34:25;

To be offered, &c with meat offerings which were burned
Lev_2:11; Lev_10:12;

Used with thank offerings
Lev_7:13; Amo_4:5;

First fruits of wheat offered with
Lev_23:17;

ILLUSTRATIVE OF
The rapid spread of the gospel
Mat_13:33; Luk_13:21;

Doctrines of Pharisees, &c
Mat_16:6; Mat_16:12;

Ungodly professors
1Co_5:6; 1Co_5:7;

False teachers
Gal_5:8; Gal_5:9;

Malice and wickedness
1Co_5:8;



G2219
ζύμη
zumē
Thayer Definition:
1) leaven
2) metaphorically of inveterate mental and moral corruption, viewed in its tendency to infect others
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: probably from G2204
Citing in TDNT: 2:902, 302





Strong:
G2219
ζύμη
zumē
dzoo'-may
Probably from G2204; ferment (as if boiling up): - leaven.


G2204
ζέω
zeō
dzeh'-o
A primary verb; to be hot (boil, of liquids; or glow, of solids), that is, (figuratively) be fervid (earnest): - be fervent.



Nave:

Leaven (Yeast)
For bread
Exo_12:34; Exo_12:39; Hos_7:4; Mat_13:33;

Leavened bread used
With a peace-offering
Lev_7:13; Amo_4:5;

With a wave-offering
Lev_23:15-17;

Leavened bread forbidden
With meat offerings
Lev_2:11; Lev_6:17; Lev_10:12; Exo_23:18; Exo_34:25;

At the Passover meal
Exo_12:19; Exo_12:20; Exo_13:3; Exo_13:4; Exo_13:7; Exo_23:18;

With blood
Exo_23:18; Exo_34:25;

A symbol for sin
1Co_5:6-8;

FIGURATIVE
Of the hypocrisy of the Pharisees
Mat_16:6-12; Mar_8:15; Luk_12:1;

Of other evils
1Co_5:6-8; Gal_5:9;

Parable of
Mat_13:33; Luk_13:21;




ISBE:
Leaven

lev´-n (שׂאר, se'ōr, חמץ, ḥāmec; ζύμη, zúmē; Latin fermentum): The nomadic ancestors of the Hebrews, like the Bedouin of today, probably made their bread without leaven; but leaven came to play a great part in their bread-making, their law and ritual, and their religious teaching (see Exo_12:15, Exo_12:19; Exo_13:7; Lev_2:11; Deu_16:4; Mat_13:33; Mat_16:6-12; Mar_8:15 f; Luk_12:1; Luk_13:21).

(1) In Bread-Making.
The form of leaven used in bread-making and the method of using it were simple and definite. The “leaven” consisted always, so far as the evidence goes, of a piece of fermented dough kept over from a former baking. There is no trace of the use of other sorts of leaven, such as the lees of wine or those mentioned by Pliny (NH, xviii. 26). The lump of dough thus preserved was either dissolved in water in the kneading-trough before the flour was added, or was “hid” in the flour (the King James Version “meal”) and kneaded along with it, as was the case mentioned in the parable (Mat_13:33). The bread thus made was known as “leavened,” as distinguished from “unleavened” bread (Exo_12:15, etc.). See BREAD.

(2) In Law and Ritual.
The ritual prohibition of leaven during “the feast of unleavened bread” including the Passover (Exo_23:15, etc.) is a matter inviting restudy. For the historical explanation given in the Scriptures, see especially Exo_12:34-39; Exo_13:3 ff; Deu_16:3. The antiquity of the prohibition is witnessed by its occurrence in the earliest legislation (Exo_23:18; Exo_34:25). A natural reason for the prohibition, like that of the similar exclusion of honey, is sought on the ground that fermentation implied a process of corruption. Plutarch voices this ancient view of the matter when he speaks of it as “itself the offspring of corruption, and corrupting the mass of dough with which it is mixed.” Fermentatum is used in Persius (Sat., i. 24) for “corruption.” For this reason doubtless it was excluded also from the offerings placed upon the altar of Yahweh, cakes made from flour without leaven, and these only, being allowed. The regulation name for these “unleavened cakes” was maccōth (Lev_10:12). Two exceptions to this rule should be noted (Lev_7:13; compare Amo_4:5): “leavened bread” was an accompaniment of the thank offering as leavened loaves were used also in the wave offering of Lev_23:17. Rabbinical writers regularly use leaven as a symbol of evil (Lightfoot).

(3) In Teaching.
The figurative uses of leaven in the New Testament, no less than with the rabbins, reflect the ancient view of it as “corrupt and corrupting,” in parts at least, e.g. Mat_16:6 parallel, and especially the proverbial saying twice quoted by Paul, “A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump” (1Co_5:6 f; Gal_5:9). But as Jesus used it in Mat_13:33, “The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven,” it is clearly the hidden, silent, mysterious but all-pervading and transforming action of the leaven in the measures of flour that is the point of the comparison.

Literature.
Nowack, Hebrew Arch., II, 145 f; Talmud, Berakhoth, 17a; Lightfoot, Hor. Hebrew. on Mat_16:6.



Easton:
Leaven
(1.) Heb. seor (Exo_12:15, Exo_12:19; Exo_13:7; Lev_2:11), the remnant of dough from the preceding baking which had fermented and become acid.
(2.) Heb. hamets, properly “ferment.” In Num_6:3, “vinegar of wine” is more correctly “fermented wine.” In Exo_13:7, the proper rendering would be, “Unfermented things [Heb. matstsoth] shall be consumed during the seven days; and there shall not be seen with thee fermented things [hamets], and there shall not be seen with thee leavened mass [seor] in all thy borders.” The chemical definition of ferment or yeast is “a substance in a state of putrefaction, the atoms of which are in a continual motion.”
The use of leaven was strictly forbidden in all offerings made to the Lord by fire (Lev_2:11; Lev_7:12; Lev_8:2; Num_6:15). Its secretly penetrating and diffusive power is referred to in 1Co_5:6. In this respect it is used to illustrate the growth of the kingdom of heaven both in the individual heart and in the world (Mat_13:33). It is a figure also of corruptness and of perverseness of heart and life (Mat_16:6, Mat_16:11; Mar_8:15; 1Co_5:7, 1Co_5:8).

[antsinmypants]

These are just as interesting.

From an email about passover:

Just What is Leavening?

Leavening is an agent that produces fermentation. The leavening agent produces gas, air, or steam that expands when heated, making the resulting product light and altering grain textures.

Leavening agents include YEAST, BAKING POWDER, and BAKING SODA with a little food acid. Yeast is a small plant that, if mixed with sugar, will produce carbon dioxide whenever temperature and moisture are right. Baking powder produces a chemical reaction that releases some of its gas when mixed with a liquid and the rest of the gas whenever it is heated. The following are descriptions of products and their category:

BAKING SODA is an important ingredient of baking powder. To be used as leaven it must be mixed with a food acid like buttermilk, sour milk, molasses, vinegar, lemon juice, or cream of tartar.

CREAM OF TARTAR by itself does not leaven anything any more than does sour milk or buttermilk. It is often used as a flavoring in foods and beverages.

BREWER'S YEAST is a by-product of the fermentation of beer and is a rich source of vitamins, especially the B-complex. It has no
leavening properties.

YEAST EXTRACT is an ingredient used in canned or in dehydrated soups.
It is only an extract and cannot leaven anything.

EGG WHITES: While eggs are not considered leavening agents, the egg whites, when beaten, can leaven by expansion of the air and by steam when heated. They are the only leavening in many angel food cakes.

Good unleavened breads can now be purchased at most well-stocked grocery stores. Ry-Krisp is perhaps the most commonly stocked, in addition to Wheat Thins Original (but be sure to read, for they are not consistent in this), and Triscuits. There are matzos and other brands of rye crackers on the market, as well as other unleavened crackers. While you may find satisfactory unleavened products in your area, you may decide to try some of these recipes to provide variety in your daily bread.

When purchasing bakery products, especially pies, inquire whether leavening was used in the crust. Always read the label for the list of ingredients used in that particular product. Examining items in your area before the time arrives will be valuable to you in planning meals during the Days of Unleavened Bread.

The best approach to this season is: Plan, prepare, be creative, and read, read, read those labels!


=============================================


From Paleo Times:
Tuesday, April 1, 2003

Greetings Brethren,


Please take time time tomorrow (Wednesday, April 2) evening just after sunset to look for the new moon that will be the sign of the Scriptural beginning of months, Abib or Nissan as it was called in post-Babylonian exile. This new moon when sighted is the start of the count to Passover. Passover is laid out with complete detail in Exodus 12 and is by comparison the shadow of Yahshua the Messiah.

Exodus 12:2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you. 3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to their fathers' houses, a lamb for a household: 4 and if the household be too little for a lamb, then shall he and his neighbor next unto his house take one according to the number of the souls; according to every man's eating ye shall make your count for the lamb. 5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male a year old: ye shall take it from the sheep, or from the goats: 6 and ye shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month; and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it between the (two) evenings.

Deuteronomy 16:1 Observe the month of Abib, and keep the passover unto Yahweh thy Elohim; for in the month of Abib Yahweh thy Elohim brought thee forth out of Egypt by night. 2 And thou shalt sacrifice the passover unto Yahweh thy Elohim, of the flock and the herd, in the place which Yahweh shall choose, to cause his name to dwell there. 3 Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread therewith, even the bread of affliction; for thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt in haste: that thou mayest remember the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all the days of thy life. 4 And there shall be no leaven seen with thee in all thy borders seven days; neither shall any of the flesh, which thou sacrificest the first day at even, remain all night until the morning.

I Corinthians 5:7 Purge out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, even as ye are unleavened. For our passover also hath been sacrificed, even Messiah:

As we look to the memorial of the sacrifice of our Savior, the Lamb of Yahweh, we are to partake of it with the powerful realization of the gravity of Yahshua's sacrifice. Hebrews speaks of this special redemption from our sinfulness to make each of us a more righteous and acceptable person. Yahshua not only died for our redemption from sin but underwent trials by those in authority. Yahshua was found blameless by all who investigated him and tried him without seeking truth. The death sentence carried out by the Romans was a direct result of a lack of understanding among the religious authority and the request of an enraged crowd. The death of Yahweh's Anointed at the 9th hour or about 3:30 in the afternoon fulfilled the lot of the Passover lamb. There is much to be thankful for as a group of brethren, the followers of the Son of Yahweh. Our goal as a people is to show the fruit of Messiah through an upright life and by the encouragement of the children of Yahweh.

The high price of redemption was paid by the Messiah Yahshua through the shedding of his blood. John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do the things which I command you. Yahshua laid down his life for those that would follow him. On the night that he was betrayed Yahshua gave the disciples the symbol by which we are to remember him. Passover is jubilant because of the awesome weight that Yahshua removed from those that choose to emulate his example through obedience to Almighty Yahweh. No animal's blood could remove sin rather it was just a covering delaying the ultimate punishment. In Egypt Israel marked the door with the blood of the lamb to prevent the death angel from entering their dwelling. Yahshua is that door. Yahshua puts these concepts into an understandable picture in John 10.

John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4 When he hath put forth all his own, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. 6 This parable spake Yahshua unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them. 7 Yahshua therefore said unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door; by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and go out, and shall find pasture. 10 The thief cometh not, but that he may steal, and kill, and destroy: I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd layeth down his life for the sheep. 12 He that is a hireling, and not a shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, beholdeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth, and the wolf snatcheth them, and scattereth them: 13 he fleeth because he is a hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know mine own, and mine own know me, 15 even as the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. 17 Therefore doth the Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. 18 No one taketh it away from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment received I from my Father.

Yahweh Bless,

James A. Meyer

==============================================


The Passion of the Passover (http://www.lionlamb.net/yavoh/2003/Mar2003.html)

[Carlosabc]

Yes, I was speaking of this verse below.

Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Thank you all for your answers. There is a lot to read here.

There are questions here I want to answer later (after work)

_____Quote____________________________________
How could the kingdom of heaven be bad? .,.....since the kingdom is like the leaven?
carlos...could you explain your understanding of this?
______________________________________________

JH, I'm glad you asked this. I will give you a full answer later.

[Hootmon]

'Leaven' is used as a metaphor for something that when taken in small amounts can effect a much larger amount.

Whether this is Good or Bad needs to be determined from the context.

[joint heir]

Hootmon,
that has always been my understanding as well

[linuxpenguin]

Originally posted by joint heir
Hootmon,
that has always been my understanding as well


As well as mine. Well said, Hootman.

[Carlosabc]

______Quote_____________________________
How could the kingdom of heaven be bad? ....since the kingdom is like the leaven?
__________________________________________


Did the Bible say that the kingdom of heaven is like the leaven?
Please read that again.


_____Quote______________________________
carlos...could you explain your understanding of this?
__________________________________________


This is why I think the leaven is a bad thing. First I must establish this one thought. When one thinks of heaven, there is usually the thoughts of angles, clouds, the place where Christians go when we die. But in the parables, there is another meaning here. Look at this verse below.

Matt. 13: 24 - another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. (KJV)

How is this possible? There are enemies in the kingdom of heaven? How could that be? Look what the enemy did in the kingdom of heaven. He sowed tares among the wheat! So the ‘kingdom of heaven’ in this context is not the heaven we know to be; where the saved go after they die.

The kingdom of heaven (please don’t stop reading after this sentence) is right here on earth. Why do I say this? (Luke 17:20-21) says: "One day the Pharisees asked Jesus, "When will the Kingdom of God begin?" Jesus replied, "The Kingdom of God isn't ushered in with visible signs. You won't be able to say, 'It has begun here in this place or there in that part of the country.' For the Kingdom of God is within you."
(Luke 17:20-21) Keep in mind that Jesus Christ says this. Its in the Bible. To refute this means that you have to change the meaning of the parable in the context it was used. The Kingdom of heaven is here!

So please let us establish the fact that the ‘The Kingdom of Heaven’ represents people who profess to be Christians on this earth. Not everyone who says ’Lord Lord” is saved. (I forget where that verse is). The ’Kingdom of heaven’ is here, it is now. It has wheat and tares, good fishes, and bad fishes etc. There are many unsaved people in these parables describing ‘the kingdom of heaven‘.

I now build upon that thought by moving on to the leaven. This is why I believe it is a bad thing.
Leaven is used metaphorically in the Bible as an evil or bad influence, false doctrine, pride or corruption. Its referred to in a negative way in the Bible. To counter this meaning is to miss the true meaning of the parables.

* The use of leaven was forbidden in food offerings dedicated to the Lord by fire. When the Exodus occurred, the Israelites had eaten unleavened bread because of their quick departure from Egypt (Ex. 12:34, 39).
* The practice of this first Passover was continued in all observations of the Passover thereafter, even to this day.

My studies say “The Passover typifies a certain experience of believer during this age. As Paul says.

* "Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us; Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth (1 Cor. 5:7, 8,9).

* We are told that leaven is strictly forbidden to be used in the temple or in the worship of the Lord (Exod. 23:18; Lev. 2:11). Why these prohibitions? Because fermentation signifies a process of corruption.
Leaven is used by Jesus Christ in His teachings, always in a bad sense.

* Jesus Christ said "Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees" (Matt. 16:6, 11-12). Here the leaven refers to the hypocrisy and the doctrine of those sects. The doctrine of the Sadducees was false. They were rationalist of their day who denied the resurrection, the miraculous, or the existence of angels“.

With all this biblical evidence, how could someone say that the leaven is a good thing?

* Jesus Christ warned us about the leaven of Herod (Mark 8:15), This was the leaven of cruelty and unbelief.

* In Galatians we read of leaven's permeating the whole lump (Gal. 5:9). This was an attempt by the legalists to add law to grace. Any attempt to put the child of God under the law is legalism and was considered by Paul as the leavening of the Gospel.

My studies also say:

* “It was leaven which was found in the Corinthian Church, where there was a following after personalities, uncleanness, criticism, legal proceedings, fornication, covetousness, and misuses of the gifts. There were false apostles, false prophets and teachers. Paul told them to purge out the old leaven, the old lump, that they might become a new lump.

Today the leaven of selfishness, the leaven of works of the flesh, the leaven of worldliness is creeping into the church. (Notice- The Bible mentions about how certain men creep into the church while the church is unaware (Jude 4). These men teach doctrine that are not in line with the word of God. Surely all this evidence must make it clear that the leaven of the parable is not something good, but evil“.

I’m hoping I could have some solid biblical evidence that the leaven in the parables are something that’s good. As far as I can see, the meaning of leaven being bad, out weighs the meaning of leaven being good. (from the Bible, not from the commentary).

Thanks once again for the answers. I look forward to the response.

One more thing. The parable also says that "a woman took"... This means she has unauthorized possession of. What does she do with this leaven that she took? She sneaks it into the bread. The work of the woman was not a open work, but a stealthy one. She "hid" the leaven in the meal. It was a covert act, like the enemy who sowed the tares under the cover of night. So it is that those who bring evil into the Church do so slyly under the pretense that they are bringing in a benefit. Their practices are all glorified and made out to be a good thing. Some people (who are well meaning and have good intentions) can not see this as a bad thing, and will often refuse to except any other answer to the symbolic meanings of the parables.
This derails the true meaning Christ taught us. He taught us how the ’Kingdom of heaven’ would start out small, and as time goes by, it would become bigger and bigger all the while having an evil influence, corruption, false doctrine etc. These parables are connected to the point where the evil (in the Kingdom of heaven) must be picked out and thrown into the everlasting fire.

The meal (bread) represents the Body of Christ. Before His crucifixion, Jesus instituted the Lord's supper: "And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed it and broke it, and gave to the disciples and said, Take, eat; this is My body” (Matt.26:26). By His sacrifice, Christ became the Bread of life for His people, that they may eat of Him and find forgiveness of sin and eternal life. Therefore, the meal (bread) represents the Body of Christ“.

These parables are dealing with the development of the Kingdom of Heaven during the Church age. Its here, and its right now.

That is why I believe the leaven is symbolic of something that represents bad doctrine, bad teachings etc. in these parables.

I still have yet to read those long post. Carlos

[linuxpenguin]

Originally posted by Carlosabc
With all this biblical evidence, how could someone say that the leaven is a good thing?

Well, let's look at the verse in question...

Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Now let’s look at the verses preceding it:

Mat 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Mat 13:32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.


We can see that Jesus is explaining the nature of the Kingdom of Heaven. Leaven, which is a fermenting agent (yeast), causes things to multiply, to grow. The Gospel of Christ which resides within us multiplies by us planting our leaven in the world. In the same way the leaven of sin can be spread in the same fashion.

Leaven is just yeast. In the verse in question the yeast is a good thing.

[Carlosabc]

linuxpenguin

_______Quote_______________________________
We can see that Jesus is explaining the nature of the Kingdom of Heaven. Leaven, which is a fermenting agent (yeast), causes things to multiply, to grow. The Gospel of Christ which resides within us multiplies by us planting our leaven in the world. In the same way the leaven of sin can be spread in the same fashion.
_____________________________________________

Thanks for this responce. I am learning how people interprate certain verses. I fail to see the conection between how the Leaven is a good thing in the parable. I know in real life, yeast or leaven is a good thing for bread.
But as I study the Word, it seems (with all the evedence) that Leaven used in the parables is representation of sin.

About the mustard seed as you brought up. Good point.
When the Lord had spoken seven of the parables and had given explanations of the first and second of them, He asked the disciples a question, "Have ye understood all these things?" (Matt. 13:51). They answered "Yea, Lord." The question is how did the disciples come to understand these parables of which several were unexplained? Obviously they got their key from the first two He had explained. The point is that if we would understand the parables we must pay close attention to those the Lord did explain. We have to keep our interpretation in harmony with that which was taught in the first two parables.
About the Mustard Seed.

"Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becomeeth a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof." (Matt. 13:31).

In the beginning of the Church that Jesus Christ started, it was small and seemingly insignificant.
Today, Christianity is the dominating religious force on earth, although it has become mixed with many things that seems to be Christian. (Leaven)

The mustard seed is God‘s Word mixed with faith, extremely small, but containing enormous possibilities. Jesus in Matt. 17:20 says, "If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you." The planting of this seed of faith has power to remove mountains, to produce miracles.
A small mustard seed from a small beginning grows pretty darn quick.
So the Kingdom of Heaven, from a very insignificant beginning, has an amazing development. This seed then which is considered "the least of all seeds" is the doctrine of Jesus Christ


Who is the man in the parable? Since the sower of the seed previously was Jesus Christ, we may therefore conclude that He was the sower here as well.

Then what does the field represent? The "field" mentioned in the other parables represented the world (Matt. 13:38). The Bible is consistent with its symbolic meanings. So the field is the world of mankind, or the special order of this age.

About the tree. According to Mark this tree has shot forth great limbs. In the beginning the Church in each community was independent of the other, with Christ as the head. But as time went by, local assemblies became incorporated under a human head. Christianity has become like the trunk of a tree that continually subdivides into smaller and smaller branches. Different sects and denominations have shot out. The tree, with its great branches, now includes over 200 denominations, as well as innumerable cults. All from the mustard seed.

Who are the birds? I’ve heard some say that they symbolize the multitudes that come to the shelter in the shadow of the Church, seeking its protection. The poor, the homeless and new converts. etc.

But when people have this interpretation they ignore the Bible’s own definition of the significance of birds, or their symbolic meaning as shown in other parts of the Scriptures.

* In Genesis 15:11, the fowls of the air are shown to be the destroyers of the sacrifice that Abraham was presenting to God.

* In Matt. 24:28, the birds of the air represent those who feast on the dead carrion, or the slain of the Lord (Rev. 19:17-18).

* Wicked Babylon, the counterfeit bird, is spoken of as a "cage of every unclean and hateful bird" (Rev. 18:2). In the prophecy we see unclean spirits represented as a cage of filthy and hateful birds sheltered and protected by Babylon.

* Birds are looked at in a negative sense in Jeremiah 5:26-27: "For among my people (God's people) are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men. As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit..."

* Even Jesus Christ himself in His interpretation of the first two parables show beyond question the significance of the term "birds". In "The Parable of the sower" or ("The Parable of the four soils")
He explained then that they represented the wicked, or the devil. "Then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart." The thievish birds of the air are the enemies of the sower. The birds represent wicked men and women who profess to be Christians, but who are actually emissaries of Satan. They come to the tree from the air, even as Satan is the prince and power of the air (Eph. 2:2).


In a nutshell, this Parable is to be summed up as:
* Jesus Christ planted the mustard see which represents His Word, in the field, or in the world, and left it to grow till he came back.
* From the small seed it became a tree, a system of religion that grew into mostly an institution of pride and power which is in contrast to His original teachings of humility and meekness.
* The final aspect of the tree as Christendom, which originally was intended to make war against Christ's enemies, has instead afforded a habitation and roosting place for them.


Please let me know what you think. (everyone).

These explainations concerning the mysteries of the "Kingdom of Heaven" are meant to be understood by us. Jesus gave them to us.

Our Lord also wants us to divide the Word rightly as well.
2 Tim 2:15

How could we rightly divide the Word is we fail to use his Word to back up other scripture?

[linuxpenguin]

Well that is certainly an interesting interpretation, and I enjoyed reading it. However, I am afraid I am going to have to disagree with you here.

Both the mustard seed and leaven are used to represent the least of things. The smallness from which something large will develop is what is being emphasized. We see the smallest of seeds growing in to a mighty tree and we see leaven being used to increase the amount of bread produced. Please remember that Jesus is saying that the Kingdom of Heaven is like a mustard seed, and also like the leaven from which many loaves are produced. At least this is how I understand it.

[antsinmypants]

Act 15:4 The church in Jerusalem, the apostles, and the spiritual leaders welcomed Paul and Barnabas when they arrived. Paul and Barnabas reported everything that God had done through them.
Act 15:5 But some believers from the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "People who are not Jewish must be circumcised and ordered to follow Moses' Teachings."
Act 15:6 The apostles and spiritual leaders met to consider this statement.
Act 15:7 After a lot of debating, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brothers, you know what happened some time ago. God chose me so that people who aren't Jewish could hear the Good News and believe.
Act 15:8 God, who knows everyone's thoughts, showed that he approved of people who aren't Jewish by giving them the Holy Spirit as he gave the Holy Spirit to us.
Act 15:9 God doesn't discriminate between Jewish and non-Jewish people. He has cleansed non-Jewish people through faith as he has cleansed us Jews.
Act 15:10 So why are you testing God? You're putting a burden on the disciples, a burden neither our ancestors nor we can carry.
Act 15:11 We certainly believe that the Lord Jesus saves us the same way that he saves them-through his kindness."
Act 15:12 The whole crowd was silent. They listened to Barnabas and Paul tell about all the miracles and amazing things that God had done through them among non-Jewish people.
Act 15:13 After they finished speaking, James responded, "Brothers, listen to me.
Act 15:14 Simon has explained how God first showed his concern by taking from non-Jewish people those who would honor his name.
Act 15:15 This agrees with what the prophets said. Scripture says,
Act 15:16 'Afterwards, I will return. I will set up David's fallen tent again. I will restore its ruined places again. I will set it up again
Act 15:17 so that the survivors and all the people who aren't Jewish over whom my name is spoken, may search for the Lord, declares the Lord.
Act 15:18 He is the one who will do these things that have always been known!'
Act 15:19 "So I've decided that we shouldn't trouble non-Jewish people who are turning to God.
Act 15:20 Instead, we should write a letter telling them to keep away from things polluted by false gods, from sexual sins, from eating the meat of strangled animals, and from eating bloody meat.
Act 15:21 After all, Moses' words have been spread to every city for generations. His teachings are read in synagogues on every day of worship."
Act 15:22 Then the apostles, the spiritual leaders, and the whole church decided to choose some of their men to send with Paul and Barnabas to the city of Antioch. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, who were leaders among the believers.
Act 15:23 They wrote this letter for them to deliver: From the apostles and the spiritual leaders, your brothers. To their non-Jewish brothers and sisters in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia. Dear brothers and sisters,
Act 15:24 We have heard that some individuals who came from us have confused you with statements that disturb you. We did not authorize these men to speak.
Act 15:25 So we have come to a unanimous decision that we should choose men and send them to you with our dear Barnabas and Paul.
Act 15:26 Barnabas and Paul have dedicated their lives to our Lord, the one named Jesus Christ.
Act 15:27 We have sent Judas and Silas to report to you on our decision.
Act 15:28 The Holy Spirit and we have agreed not to place any additional burdens on you. Do only what is necessary
Act 15:29 by keeping away from food sacrificed to false gods, from eating bloody meat, from eating the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual sins. If you avoid these things, you will be doing what's right. Farewell!
Act 15:30 So the men were sent on their way and arrived in the city of Antioch. They gathered the congregation together and delivered the letter.




The word that is translated churches in most translations is the same word that means "house of meeting", "Temple", "Synogogue".

That is the WHOLE reason-- "Because Moses' teaching is taught every shabbat at synogogue" that the gentiles were told not to worry what the PHARASEES were saying.

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by linuxpenguin
Both the mustard seed and leaven are used to represent the least of things. The smallness from which something large will develop is what is being emphasized. We see the smallest of seeds growing in to a mighty tree and we see leaven being used to increase the amount of bread produced. Please remember that Jesus is saying that the Kingdom of Heaven is like a mustard seed, and also like the leaven from which many loaves are produced. At least this is how I understand it. I agree. Leaven is usually compared to a bad teaching, but it isnt ALWAYS a bad thing.
Luke 13
20 And again he said, `To what shall I liken the reign of God?
21 It is like leaven, which a woman, having taken, did hide in three measures of meal, till that all was leavened.'The reign of God is compared to leaven in these verses. I hope we can all agree that the reagn of God is a good thing. :)

[Beth]

From a commentary by Henry Morris.....

'Leaven is invariably symbolic of evil doctrine or practice. It produces fermentation, which is a decay process. The spreading of leaven here represents the corrupting influence of even a small amount of false doctrine (Gal 5:9) or impure practice in the kingdom (1 Cor 5:6).'

'The three measures of meal correspond to the "three tenth deals of fine flour" (Lev 14:10) which were specified for the offerings [my comment, the triune allusion is here also so the meal would be linked with God and His kingdom].'

'The woman of the parable, evidently preparing such an offering, surreptiously "hid" leaven in the proposed offering, contrary to the law. The meal offerings was actually a type of Christ (John 6:33), bringing life to the world, as our Passover, but His work was being corrupted by the world's leaven (1 Cor 5:8).'

'Both the growing mustard seed and spreading leaven indicate that, as the outward kingdom grows, both its membership and doctrine will increasingly become corrupted. The true spiritual kingdom within the outward kingdom, on the other hand, will always be a relatively "little flock" (Luke 12:32) surrounded by wolves (Matthew 10:16). Even at the future time of Christ's return, the Lord anticipated that it will be difficult to find real "faith on the earth" (Luke 18:8).

'The common interpretation of these two parables (that they indicate the eventual conversion of the whole world through evangelism and development of a theocratic world government) is thus badly mistaken.'

I'd have to go with your interpretation there carlos. And this fits precisely too with what Jesus indicates about the many vs the few... 'many called, few chosen'.. many on the broad road to destruction, few finding the narrow door' etc.

[Hootmon]

Then how do you explain the verses I just posted.
Leaven is likened to the reign of God.

[linuxpenguin]

From John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible


The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven. The word "leaven" is every where else used in a bad sense; and either designs immorality, as malice and wickedness, or false doctrine, such as that of the Pharisees and Sadducees: but here it seems to be taken in a good sense, and the Gospel to be compared unto it; nor for its disagreeable qualities, but on account of its small quantity; it is a little leaven that leavens the whole lump, and may express, as the grain of mustard seed does, the small beginnings of the Gospel, and its meanness in the eyes of men; and on account of its piercing, penetrating, and spreading nature: so the Gospel reaches the conscience, pierces the heart, enlightens the understanding, informs the judgment, raises and sets the affections on right objects, subdues the will, and brings down all towering thoughts, to the obedience of Christ, in particular persons; and has penetrated and made its way, under divine influence, through towns, cities, kingdoms, and nations: also on account of its heating, swelling, and assimilating nature; so the Gospel, where it takes place, warms the affections, causes the heart to burn within, inspires with zeal for God, and Christ, and the Gospel; it swells and fills churches with such as shall be saved, and assimilates the several persons it operates in, makes them like one another, one bread, one body, having like precious faith, knowledge, and experience, though in a different degree,

Which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal. By the "three measures of meal", are meant the elect of God; who, because of their nature and quality, are compared to meal, or fine flour; and that because of that of which it is made, wheat, to a corn of which Christ is compared, Joh_12:24 and by whose grace the saints are what they are, justified, regenerated, and sanctified; and on account of the manner it becomes so, as by grinding the wheat, sifting it when ground, and separating it from the bran; all which may express the first convictions in the conscience of awakened sinners, the grace of God in conversion, and the separation of them from the rest of the world, in the effectual calling; as also by reason of its choiceness, purity, and goodness, the saints being chosen of God and precious, and being pure and spotless, through the grace and righteousness of Christ, and being highly valued, and had in great esteem by him; and because of their quantity, are compared to three measures of meal. The measure here designed, is the Hebrew seah, which held a gallon and an half, and three of these made an ephah; and which is often rendered by the (a) Targumists, úìú ñàéï, "three seahs", or "measures", the very phrase here used; and the reason why three are particularly mentioned is, because such a quantity used to be fermented and kneaded by women at one time; see Gen_18:6

From Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible

The kingdom of heaven - The meaning here is the same as in the last parable; perhaps, however, intending to denote more properly the secret and hidden nature of piety in the soul. The other parable declared the “fact” that the gospel would greatly spread, and that piety in the heart would greatly increase. This states the “way” or “mode” in which it would be done. It is secret, silent, steady; pervading all the faculties of the soul and all the kingdoms of the world, as leaven, or yeast, though hidden in the flour, and though deposited only in one place, works silently until all the mass is brought under its influence.
Three measures - These were small measures (see the margin); but the particular amount is of no consequence to the story; nor is anything to be inferred from the fact that three are mentioned. That number is mentioned as a circumstance giving interest to the parable, but designed to convey no spiritual instruction. The measure mentioned here probably contained about a peck and a half.

From Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible

The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven - On the nature and effects of leaven, see the note on Exo_12:8. As the property of leaven is to change, or assimulate to its own nature, the meal or dough with which it is mixed, so the property of the grace of Christ is to change the whole soul into its own likeness; and God intends that this principle should continue in the soul till all is leavened - till the whole bear the image of the heavenly, as it before bore the image of the earthly. Both these parables are prophetic, and were intended to show, principally, how, from very small beginnings, the Gospel of Christ should pervade all the nations of the world, and fill them with righteousness and true holiness.

From Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Whole Bible

IV. Here is the parable of the leaven, Mat_13:33. The scope of this is much the same with that of the foregoing parable, to show that the gospel should prevail and be successful by degrees, but silently and insensibly; the preaching of the gospel is like leaven, and works like leaven in the hearts of those who receive it.
1. A woman took this leaven; it was her work. Ministers are employed in leavening places, in leavening souls, with the gospel. The woman is the weaker vessel, and we have this treasure in such vessels.
2. The leaven was hid in three measures of meal. The heart is, as the meal, soft and pliable; it is the tender heart that is likely to profit by the word: leaven among corn unground does not work, nor does the gospel in souls unhumbled and unbroken for sin: the law grinds the heart, and then the gospel leavens it. It is three measures of meal, a great quantity, for a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. The meal must be kneaded, before it receive the leaven; our hearts, as they must be broken, so they must be moistened, and pains taken with them to prepare them for the word, that they may receive the impressions of it. The leaven must be hid in the heart (Psa_119:11), not so much for secrecy (for it will show itself) as for safety; our inward thought must be upon it, we must lay it up, as Mary laid up the sayings of Christ, Luk_2:51. When the woman hides the leaven in the meal, it is with an intention that it should communicate its taste and relish to it; so we must treasure up the word in our souls, that we may be sanctified by it, Joh_17:17.
3. The leaven thus hid in the dough, works there, it ferments; the word is quick and powerful, Heb_4:12. The leaven works speedily, so does the word, and yet gradually. What a sudden change did Elijah's mantle make upon Elisha! 1Ki_19:20. It works silently and insensibly (Mar_4:26), yet strongly and irresistibly: it does its work without noise, for so is the way of the Spirit, but does it without fail. Hide but the leaven in the dough, and all the world cannot hinder it from communicating its taste and relish to it, and yet none sees how it is done, but by degrees the whole is leavened.
(1.) Thus it was in the world. The apostles, by their preaching, hid a handful of leaven in the great mass of mankind, and it had a strange effect; it put the world into a ferment, and in a sense turned it upside down (Act_17:6), and by degrees made a wonderful change in the taste and relish of it: the savour of the gospel was manifested in every place, 2Co_2:14; Rom_15:19. It was thus effectual, not by outward force, and therefore not by any such force resistible and conquerable, but by the Spirit of the Lord of hosts, who works, and none can hinder.
(2.) Thus it is in the heart. When the gospel comes into the soul, [1.] It works a change, not in the substance; the dough is the same, but in the quality; it makes us to savour otherwise than we have done, and other things to savour with us otherwise than they used to do, Rom_8:5. [2.] It works a universal change; it diffuses itself into all the powers and faculties of the soul, and alters the property even of the members of the body, Rom_6:13. [3.] This change is such as makes the soul to partake of the nature of the word, as the dough does of the leaven. We are delivered into it as into a mould (Rom_6:17), changed into the same image (2Co_3:18), like the impression of the seal upon the wax. The gospel savours of God, and Christ, and free grace, and another world, and these things now relish with the soul. It is a word of faith and repentance, holiness and love, and these are wrought in the soul by it. This savour is communicated insensibly, for our life is hid; but inseparably, for grace is a good part that shall never be taken away from those who have it. When the dough is leavened, then to the oven with it; trials and afflictions commonly attend this change; but thus saints are fitted to be bread for our Master's table.

[Beth]

Originally posted by Hootmon
Then how do you explain the verses I just posted.
Leaven is likened to the reign of God.

My understanding of this is that this is the same parable we're speaking of. [NB My KJV doesn't say reign, it says kingdom] The kingdom of God is like - and then comes the story (parable) to explain what it's like, rather than a direct statement 'the kingdom of God is leaven'.

Interestingly, immediately after that section in Luke in verse 23 the disciples then ask him 'Lord, are there few that be saved?' and he said unto them. 24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate, for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able'. Jesus' words following that are pretty sobering too: apparently people who believe they've been eating and drinking in his presence and listening to his teaching in their streets (calling themselves Christians I guess, and believing they are part of the kingdom), won't be allowed in, and He will consider them 'workers of iniquity'.

[antsinmypants]

I've never heard it that way beth.
I'll be out this Shabbat, but I will ask some of the very knowledgeable teachers (My "family" there) what they think on this and what commentaries they have to draw from.

[Hootmon]

Its a mistake to use the Strait Gate parable to verify the Leven parable as an obvious period of time is between the two. They werent part of the same 'classroom'.

However, it is valid to take the Mustard Seed and Leven parables together as they happen in the same context.18Then Jesus asked, "What is the kingdom of God like? What shall I compare it to?
19It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his garden. It grew and became a tree, and the birds of the air perched in its branches."
20Again he asked, "What shall I compare the kingdom of God to?
21It is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount[1] of flour until it worked all through the dough."
Both the Mustard Seed and Leven are used as examples of the Kingdom of God.

Then we have an obvious Segue...
22Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem.
23Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"
See what I mean?

[antsinmypants]

Hootmon, you just said these were two seperate class room sessions, and then say "someone asked him - 'are only a few going to be saved?'" - DIFFERENT CLASSROOM.

So... how is that explained now that we see that is a different class?

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by antsinmypants
Hootmon, you just said these were two seperate class room sessions, and then say "someone asked him - 'are only a few going to be saved?'" - DIFFERENT CLASSROOM.

So... how is that explained now that we see that is a different class? Because of this verse... 22Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem.There is an obvious jump forward in time indicated here.

[Hootmon]

Oops. I misunderstood what you were asking, I think. Can you rephrase the question?

[joint heir]

You just can not get past the fact that it is the kingdom that is like the leaven not false teaching within the kingdom

it is the kingdom working throughout something else..the world

it is very clear what the leaven is....just because the leaven means something else in other circumstances does not mean you can apply that here when the text is clear ....

kingdom =leaven in this verse....

kingdom works through something and grows...just as leaven works through the bread...

there is just no cause to substitute false teaching for leaven because that would mean that the kingdom is the bread

that would be like saying that in verse 31 the kingdom is like the field instead of the mustard seed....

the two parables are parallel in construction...

if the leaven is false teaching that means that the entire kingdom will be bad and this can not be so....the leaven reaches all of the bread none is held back...so that means the whole of the kingdom would have to be bad....and this just can not be so.

[antsinmypants]

::agrees with jointheir again::

mark it on the wall again... ;)

[joint heir]

see there ants it not that bad....the first time agreeing with me is the roughest....but you will get used to it:lol...just ask Angyl....:D

[antsinmypants]

:rofl
:lol

[Hootmon]

Thanks, Join Heir.

That was the point I was trying to make, but you obviously did a better job.

[Beth]

I guess I don't break down scripture into classrooms. I have no problem comparing scripture to scripture, whether someone else considers it a mistake or not.

I guess you can consider verse 22 ('and he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem') as a segue to some thing unrelated, but there's not really a reason in the scripture right there to assume that. It could just as easily mean, and Jesus then proceeded along his way teaching and preaching the kingdom of God through the cities and villages etc. We do know that Jesus went about preaching the kingdom and how to be saved into it, from the mass of testimony of the gospels I think. And this would certainly make sense as to why one of the disciples then asks Him about whether there are only a few saved.

But anyways, the passage we're talking about there, where Jesus answers this question, begins with the teaching about entering in at the strait gate. Then Jesus tells them about the concept of the master of the house (the Lord) shutting the door and some (many actually as we see going through the whole section) will knock but be shut out, and though they thought they had part in his kingdom, he will say he doesn't know them. He goes on to say in verse 28 of Luke 13:

'There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.'

He says some more about the kingdom of God there but surely the point is, the target of this parable, is the kingdom of God, just as much as those about the mustard seed and leaven. He is still speaking about the kingdom.

This resonates with scripture elsewhere where Jesus speaks of many coming to Him and saying the Lord, Lord thing and Him telling them He never knew them, despite their assertion of them doing this, that and the other in His name. {Matt7:21-22 'Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven - not calling it the kingdom of God here, but is the kingdom of heaven God's kingdom, or not? I think it is, myself}

It also resonates with the scripture about the few who follow the narrow way and enter into life at the strait gate (which is Christ Jesus). I think it's fairly sound to make an association between the kingdom of God representing life, and being outside it, meaning death. Regardless, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself says, from His point of view, that it will be few who enter, not many, as one would suppose if the leaven were representing a spread of the kingdom of God to fill the whole.

PS. Just to comment, one day, I think the kingdom of God WILL fill the whole of course, after He's removed all impurities and there's nothing else other than the kingdom :)

[blitzkreig]

Are you asking this question just to get a rise out of us? :rofl

[Beth]

Originally posted by blitzkreig
Are you asking this question just to get a rise out of us? :rofl

:lol :lol :lol :lol

[linuxpenguin]

Originally posted by Hootmon
Thanks, Join Heir.

That was the point I was trying to make, but you obviously did a better job.

You and me both, Hootman. I'm glad someone phrased it in a way that let out the meaning, though I thought we all said the
same thing. I have to teach this Sunday, now I'm wondering about my ability to phrase things in an understandable fashion. :sigh

[Beth]

Chuck Missler has an interesting, though rather brief, commentary that bears on our discussion over these parables.

http://www.khouse.org/articles/biblestudy/19940401-31.html


He makes a link between the kingdom parables, to the letters to the seven churches in Revelation which I found quite interesting - 4th and 6th churches. 4th being a woman who introduces false doctrine and practices to the church, and 6th alluding to the removal of the church from the world ie Rapture.

Salt, is a usual ingredient of a loaf of bread.
Salt, as I learned in Home Ec aeons ago, controls the rate of rise of the loaf and if you omit it, the dough will rise too fast and fall in during baking.
So, salt removed,----->loaf collapses in the heat ;)

Also, I think this lady forgot the oil when she hid the leaven, didn't she? Oil, lubricates the dough so it can stretch. No oil--->brittle bread that falls to bits at the slightest touch.

Interesting connections :)

[Joyous_n_Jesus]

Let's not forget that mustard plants do not grow into large trees where birds would nest normally either........:sigh

I do not see the leaven being a good thing or the mustard tree with birds as a good thing.........it makes no sense why throughout scripture these things always being represented as bad, then Jesus all of a sudden changes it ONCE for it to represent a good thing.......makes no sense at all, for God to use something that HE Himself has said was "bad" or "evil" then decided in a parable to make it a good thing.......I do not get it....unless the "little leaven" represents the Gentiles as in the loaf offerings one with leaven and one without.......but then I think that is stretching it a bit......:sigh

I have to agree with Carlos on this one........:eek

[joint heir]

I have to get out more....I have never heard (until this thread).... this opinion that the leaven in this parable is bad and now the mustard seed is bad??:eek( I guess it is my baptist upbringing;))

Jesus was constantly turning things around.....

not eye for an eye but turn the other cheek..
the first in the kingdom is last
to have authority you are to be a slave to all....

it does not shock me in the least that Jesus was use this as an illustration.....the whole idea of the gospel was turning things upside down..one ultimate sacrifice......

What could possibly be bad about turning into a big tree from a tiny seed


we also have faith described as a mustard seed...is faith now bad?


but hey I am always open to being proven wrong......How can you get past the fact that the entire kingdom has to be bad though....?

like I said...I have to get out more.....it seems that christians can disagree about most anything:)



edit because my post was really messed up:lol

[Beth]

Originally posted by Joyous_n_Jesus
.......I do not get it....unless the "little leaven" represents the Gentiles as in the loaf offerings one with leaven and one without.......but then I think that is stretching it a bit......:sigh

I have to agree with Carlos on this one........:eek



I found another interesting article on this parable, which addresses this thing that you are mentioning about the loaf offerings with leaven :

'Objectors have appealed to two passages in the O.T. where "leaven" is employed in a good sense. But when examined it will be found that they are only seeming exceptions. The first is in Leviticus 23:17. The two loaves presented unto the Lord at the Feast of Weeks were to be baked "with leaven." But there is no difficulty here. The Feast of Weeks foreshadowed what is recorded in Acts 2, where the "first fruits" of this dispensation are seen. The two "loaves" prefigured saved Jews and Gentiles. Inasmuch as the old nature remains in those who are born again, the "leaven" was needed in the loaves which represented these believers. Whenever the typical bread represented Christ it must be unleavened, wherever it typified His people it must be leavened.'

from http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Parables/parables_04.htm

[Carlosabc]

OK, I have questions for everyone of you! There are great misconceptions here concerning the Leaven. Please don’t quit looking at this post and don’t ignore the questions at the end. This is really important for me to understand this.

By the way, I asked this question about the Leaven, not “to get a rise out of everyone“ (LOL, thanks for the laugh[laughing and clapping] ), but because of what my pastor said in his sermon about a year ago. (About the Leaven being something good). Then last month my wife and I walked into a Christian book store. I walked to the pastor studies section and saw a book concerning the parables. The interpretations of the symbolic meaning of the parables was inverted according to what I had studied. That book also said the Leaven was good.
My liberal (KJV) Study Bible’s commentary insinuate that the Leaven is good. How could so many Christians screw this up? I am in awe.

Beth is right. (High five to Beth) You don’t break down scripture into classrooms. These parables are connected. If you take all of these parables, stand back, cross your eyes a little so to speak, you begin to see a true deeper inner meaning behind these parables. A bigger picture begins to appear. The patterns are there. Its hard to see when we decide to ignore some of the words. When symbolic significance is placed on all the scripture (Leaven is bad) and made as an exception for one little parable (Leaven is good only in this verse and not the others), the pattern is not seen and the bigger picture does not come through. The mystery of “The Kingdom of Heaven” is missed and remains a mystery.

And from the questions I asked concerning this parable, it seems that not too many believers in Christ can see this parable for what it really means. That the church starts out small, gets bigger and bigger, all the while becoming more corrupt, sinful, false teachings etc. Boys being molested, gays becoming preachers, church splits and fights. Then Christians wonder what’s going on with the church, all the while thinking that the church is getting better and better.

I know what’s going on with the church. Only because of what the scriptures said. Please stand by for the questions. Here they come.

But first:

_______Quote______________________________________
You just can not get past the fact that it is the kingdom that is like the leaven not false teaching within the kingdom
_________________________________________________

Joint Heir. Please don’t stop the verse in mid sentence? You say that “Heaven is like Leaven”
You put this verse in its partiality and declare it as your definition of Heaven.
“the kingdom that is like the leaven”. This is not what the Bible says. The Bible says:
“The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. I now see why your understanding of this is derailed. Please don’t take offence at this observation as to how I now see how you thing that Heaven = Leaven.
There is no connection there. And no one on this board has given scripture to support any link of Heaven as Leaven. Not one verse.

________Quote_____________________________________
if the leaven is false teaching that means that the entire kingdom will be bad and this can not be so....the leaven reaches all of the bread none is held back...so that means the whole of the kingdom would have to be bad....and this just can not be so.
____________________________________________________

Joint Heir, you almost got it!!! Almost. The fact is that the Kingdom is becoming bad. Every sector of the church is being effected by false prophets, false doctrine, gays, liberals and anti-christ’s who are in the church and yet deny that Jesus is Lord (Jude 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ). The leaven is so bad that at the end the evil ones will be separated and burned from the Kingdom of Heaven. Which leads me to the questions.

Questions Number one

#1 In the parable of the ’four soils’ in Matt. 13:1-23, when Jesus was describing the Kingdom of Heaven, (and Heaven is like Leaven) according to those who believe this way, a good place
where there is no sin, everyone is happy, living in utopia, why then are there ‘deceitfulness of riches‘, in verse 23 as Christ described the Kingdom of Heaven? Why does the Word of God get choked, and the hearers of God’s Word become unfruitful in the Kingdom of Heave?

#2 If the “Kingdom of Heaven” is the utopia that is described in “The Tares”, then why is there an enemy that sows tares among the wheat? Yes, this is done in the Kingdom of Heaven. (Matt. 13: 24-30) Why are there tares gathered up and bundled to burn in the fire? Yes, this is in the Kingdom of Heaven. How could that be? (That’s a question)

#3 Question- The parable of the Net. (Matt. 13:17-50) Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 48Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. 49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

In this parable, there will there be the wicked ones amongst the just! How could that be is Jesus Christ is describing the “Kingdom of Heaven”?
Will there be some who are thrown into the furnace of fire in the Kingdom of Heaven?
Could Jesus be mistaken by describing Heaven in this fashion?
Will there be those who shall be wailing and gnashing their teeth as they are separated from the Kingdom of Heaven?

Please respond to these questions. I want to hear from Joint Heir as well.

I almost feel as if I can not sleep tonight waiting for the answers to poor in. Thanks for your answers in advance.

P.S.

Beth-

Thank you for seeing the Bible verses the way they should be seen. It is so hard to believe that even the most sincere, educated and mature believers fail to see the true mystery concerning what Christ is trying to tell us in the parables. I am so perplexed as to why some Christians can see what the parables really mean and others can’t. I’m baffled. Flabbergasted if you will. Its makes me feel quite pontipulous that so many people can invert some of the symbols in the Bible and try to make meaning out of it.
Its ether that they are not paying attention to the symbolic interpretation, or they want to see something else that is not there.
I gather that when certain people hear the word “Heaven”, then naturally whatever follows that word must be something good. “Leaven” (yum) good. “Birds” ‘ohh, how nice’
The symbolic words in the parable teachings conjure up nice images in the mind; are then processed automatically to associate with things that are nice in reality. This is why the parables concerning “The Kingdom of Heaven” can not be seen by some people, even the most sincere of believers.
There is another remote possibility as to why some can not see theses parables for what it really means. I hope I’m wrong on this. Pride. Not wanting to admit that they have been wrong for all these many years. A person would really have to humble themselves and pray for God to search their hearts and ask for wisdom in this case.
If pride is a factor in a person misinterpreting these parables, there is a good chance that they will never see the real meaning of these verses till our Lord explains it to them in the hereafter.

If there is one thing we can agree upon concerning these parables about the Leaven which a woman took and jammed it into the bread, we can agree that there are two camps of thought here.

Thought #1 The parables mean that things are getting better and better and bigger in the church.

Thought #2 The parable means that things are becoming more corrupt, sinful, false doctrine etc. in the church.

Both of these thoughts (#1 & #2) can not be right no matter how holy and well intentioned we are. I also noticed that one can have years of theological experience under his belt. They could still end up screwing these parables up.

I could be wrong on the following observation. It seems to me (in studying this and asking questions) that the more liberal a person is, the more likely they are to associate Leaven with something good.

‘Leaven is good’ type of people are the kinds that will read the ‘living Bible’ or the NIV.
This is just an observation. I could be wrong on that. But it SEEMS to be this way.

Please don’t take all this the wrong way. But please do answer the questions.

[Hootmon]

Carlos, you may want to avoid phrases like "How could so many Christians screw this up?" and "I am so perplexed as to why some Christians can see what the parables really mean and others can’t." as those two parables can most certainly be intrepreted as a 'good thing'.

Im beginning to see that I might be mistaken in this matter. The Leaven and Mustard seed parables do seem to indicate a 'good thing', but after searching I could find no other examples of 'good' leaven, and 'birds of the air' are almost always associated with carrion eaters.

Color me unconvinced either way at the moment.

[linuxpenguin]

Originally posted by Carlosabc
I could be wrong on the following observation. It seems to me (in studying this and asking questions) that the more liberal a person is, the more likely they are to associate Leaven with something good.

‘Leaven is good’ type of people are the kinds that will read the ‘living Bible’ or the NIV.
This is just an observation. I could be wrong on that. But it SEEMS to be this way.

Please don’t take all this the wrong way. But please do answer the questions.

Excuse me? Liberal? Adherents of the NIV or the "Living Bible"?


[edited after rethinking original post, which was a little harsh]

[dusty]

I've heard these taught both ways. :)

I've read thru the thread several times and some of these things were mentioned, but for consideration and insights from anyone who cares to comment...

Matthew 16:12
"...understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teachings of the Pharisees and Sadducees"

Leviticus 7:13
This peace offering of thanksgiving must also be accompanied by loaves of yeast bread

Ro 11:16
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Leavened bread that was Holy...

Lev. 23:17,20
You shall bring from your dwellings two loaves of bread...they shall be baked with leaven, as first fruits to the Lord. The priest shall wave the bread of the first fruits as a wave offering before the Lord...they shall be holy to the Lord for the priest.

1Co 15:23
...Christ the firstfruits...

Leaven/yeast causes disturbance, so how is it that the leaven could represent a good thing? Christ didn't come to bring immediate peace to the world, but a sword...a disturbance in the world, much like yeast in dough, that will eventually completely distrupt the false peace of the world and permeate and overcome all things (for all to see)...

John 16:3
I have said all this to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world, you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.

Is there no way that the leaven in the parable could be a representation of the above...what has/will overcome the world?



:)

[linuxpenguin]

Chap. 25.--The same word does not always signify the same thing
And when it is shown to be figurative, the words in which it is expressed will be found to be drawn either from like objects or from objects having some affinity.


But as there are many ways in which things show a likeness to each other, we are not to suppose there is any rule that what a thing signifies by similitude in one place it is to be taken to signify in all other places. For our Lord used leaven both in a bad sense, as when He said, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees," I and in a good sense, as when He said, "The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."

Now the rule in regard to this variation has two forms. For things that signify now one thing and now another, signify either things that are contrary, or things that are only different. They signify contraries, for example, when they are used metaphorically at one time in a good sense, at another in a bad, as in the case of the leaven mentioned above. Another example of the same is that a lion stands for Christ in the place where it is said, "The lion of the tribe of Judah has prevailed;" and again, stands for the devil where it is written, "Your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about seeking whom he may devour." In the same way the serpent is used in a good sense, "Be wise as serpents;" and again, in a bad sense, "The serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty." Bread is used in a good sense, "I am the living bread which came down from heaven;" in a bad, "Bread eaten in secret is pleasant." And so in a great many other case. The examples I have adduced are indeed by no means doubtful in their signification, because only plain instances ought to be used as examples. There are passages, however, in regard to which it is uncertain in what sense they ought to be taken, as for example, "In the hand of the Lord there is a cup, and the wine is red: it is full of mixture." Now it is uncertain whether this denotes the wrath of God, but not to the last extremity of punishment, that is, "to the very dregs;" or whether it denotes the grace of the Scriptures passing away from the Jews and coming to the Gentiles, because "He has put down one and set up another,"--certain observances, however, which they understand in a carnal manner, still remaining among the Jews, for "the dregs hereof is not yet wrung out." The following is an example of the same object being taken, not in opposite, but only in different significations: water denotes people, as we read in the Apocalypse,l and also the Holy Spirit, as for example, "Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water;" and many other things besides water must be interpreted according to the place in which they are found.

And in the same way other objects are not single in their signification, but each one of them denotes not two only but sometimes even several different things, according to the connection in which it is found.


Written by a gentleman by the name of Saint Augustine.

[joint heir]

okay.....first of all.....

everyone agrees that the kingdom of heaven is not all good...that there are tares...this is not up for debate...

and everyone here agrees that the kingdom of heaven spreads...
this is also not up for debate

both concepts are true.....and both concepts are biblical....all we are discussing is which of these concepts is the leaven parable teaching...


Carlos....in the parable the kingdom of heaven is the leaven which is spread...it is the kingdom which is being spread through.....

if leaven only represents part of the kingdom (the bad part) then that means that the kingdom of heaven as a whole has to be represented by the dough because the part is spreading through the whole....

but that is not what the verse says ....it says that the kingdom of heaven is like the leaven working thorough the dough....not like the dough itself

and we can assume since the kingdom of heaven contains wheat and tares then then both will be working through the world.....and we can certainly see this in effect...


another point about the illustration......when the bad is being discussed wheat and tares are being used to describe this......wheat and tares can and will be separated.....

when using the dough analogy.......it all becomes one....you can not separate out bad dough from good dough.....because it all becomes one....

that is why I said earlier that it would mean that the entire kingdm was bad...no wheat ...just tares

that is why I can not see this as any more than an illustration of growth... a little becoming a lot.....the kingdom will grow from small to large over time....

which needed to be taught...since many expect a huge ushering in of the kingdom ..and a radical quick change...

[Carlosabc]

No one answered any of the questions that would shed light on this matter.

_______Quote______________________________
Carlos, you may want to avoid phrases like "How could so many Christians screw this up?" and "I am so perplexed as to why some Christians can see what the parables really mean and others can’t."
_________________________________________

Hootmon- Sorry for the harsh speech. But I am perplexed why one verse can mean one thing for some, and another thing for others. That is a mystery for me. Delete the 'screw this up' part.

______Quote___________________________________
Im beginning to see that I might be mistaken in this matter.
_______________________________________________

Hootmon- I think you are onto something. Please keep reading and comparing.

_______Quote______________________________
Excuse me? Liberal? Adherents of the NIV or the "Living Bible"?
__________________________________________

The term 'liberal' in this sense is not, and should not be taken as an offence. Yes, the NIV is liberal compared to the KJV when comparing side by side. That is another Thread.

linuxpenguin - You wrote so much without the scripture refrences.
Its going to take time for me to look these up. It is interesting though what you wrote. It'll be me and my concordance tomorrow after I print your reponce.

[Carlosabc]

______Quote_____________________________
but that is not what the verse says ....it says that the kingdom of heaven is like the leaven working thorough the dough....not like the dough itself
___________________________________________

Shelly-

I ask you this in all due respect. What version of the bible are you reading?

[Carlosabc]

______Quote___________________________
...I'm looking into the leaven thing tomorrow during the Shabbat midrash... antsinmypants
________________________________________


antsinmypants-

Thanks for your PM. I was not able to PM you back. Please let me know how it goes tomorrow with your debate about the Leaven. I'd really like to know.
Carlos

[joint heir]

Originally posted by Carlosabc
______Quote_____________________________
but that is not what the verse says ....it says that the kingdom of heaven is like the leaven working thorough the dough....not like the dough itself
___________________________________________

Shelly-

I ask you this in all due respect. What version of the bible are you reading?


that was a paraphrase.....meant for discussion...the point was what the kingdom of heaven is.....leaven or dough....when I quote scripture I also give the reference.....

I use several versions to try and get the whole picture....I think it is obvious that the quote above is not scripture but discussion of what the verse is "saying"...but sorry for any miscommunication...

now would you like to discuss the point involved....that kingdom of heaven is described as leaven and not as the dough as a whole..:)...if the leaven is representative of the bad doctrine etc in the kingdom then the kingdom is the dough overall....but the parable teaches that the kingdom is like the leaven working through the dough....so the kingdom is working through something else

[antsinmypants]

Thanks for your PM. I was not able to PM you back. Please let me know how it goes tomorrow with your debate about the Leaven. I'd really like to know.
Carlos [/B]


Carlos, Judy and I are still hashing it out. I'm going to print out a couple of other more literal versions and compare them with the three bibles I have and see what I Can come up with, reading the chapter before and the chapter after this. I think I am skimming over the hinge of the door -- that either opens one possibility and closes another out, or totally closes out my old way of thinking on this.

I Asked Judy (like an aunt to me) to read over what I Found and see if she has a commentary I don't, and see what the sages would have said about leaven used in speech like this.

I am still scratching my head over it.. I will "take it at face value" then dig deeper, then look at every angle.
I Must continue to remember that YAH doesn't think in a linear manner like we do, but that His truths are circular, they all inter-relate to each other, and that we have to "Sh'ma" -- Listen, hear and understand what it is He is saying.

:D

I'll come back if I see something and post what I find as i find it.. and i'll keep reading and lurking for a while until I Do find it :)

[Beth]

One more thought on this, and then I shall be silent.

Leaven, unlike the nice, tidy, dried yeast in tins and packets that we buy today, was in old times made by keeping a part of the new baking, and putting it in a damp place to essentially begin rotting! The process of fermentation is in fact, rotting, or putrefaction.

So, leaven could be considered to be corrupted bread. This makes me think of how very early on in the life of the growing body of believers, corrupt doctrines and heresies were secretly and subtly introduced (as foretold by Paul, Peter, John, and if I understand them rightly, in these kingdom parables of the Lord's as well).

How do we enter the kingdom, or how does the kingdom of heaven really enter and grow in us? Isn't it by the reception of 1) the Bread of Life himself, and 2) by the bread of the word? Is that not how we live? By every word that proceeds from the mouth of God?
The good bread, which came down from heaven.

But as we see down through the history of the last two thousand years, Christendom in the overall corporate sense, is filled with churches/denominations/leaders (branches of the grossly abnormally grown mustard 'tree'?) that have been invaded with all manner of false doctrines and heretical beliefs (corruption of God's word), and in whose halls all manner of apostate and corrupt teachers, false prophets etc roost like evil vultures. It's gotten so bad today that several believers recently on this very board have asked plaintively how can they find a church somewhere, where they live, in which they can hear the untainted word of God preached to them on a Sunday. Thank God that there are believers yet spread throughout, but it really does appear that our Lord was correct.. the field has wheat, but the tares is growing side by side, for now.

[Carlosabc]

I'm back, my wife and I spent the whole day in Philidelphia. Good to be back in New Jersey.

_______Quote______________________________
The process of fermentation is in fact, rotting, or putrefaction.
__________________________________________

Wow Beth.

I never looked at it this way. Thanks once again for this. This really backs up my argument, ehrrr, debate. or rather discussion.
Thanks again.

______Quote________________________________
that was a paraphrase.....meant for discussion...the point was what the kingdom of heaven is.....leaven or dough....
______________________________________________

joint heir- I know its none of my business, but what version of the Bible do you normally read?

________Quote______________________________
Carlos, Judy and I are still hashing it out. I'm going to print out a couple of other more literal versions and compare them with the three bibles I have and see what I Can come up with,
____________________________________________


antsinmypants-

Its great that you are researching this. But the bad news is that if you study different versions of the Bible, they will contradict each other. Those who interprated the Bible are also in dis-agreement as to weather the Leaven was good or bad.
Compare that same verse of the KJV, with the Living Bible. See how different it is? That is a shame. Christ had a specific message to reveal the Mysteries of the Kindgom of Heaven. Now people are reading versions of the Bible that do not present what Jesus is saying.


______Quote___________________________
I use several versions to try and get the whole picture....I think it is obvious that the quote above is not scripture but discussion of what the verse is "saying"...but sorry for any miscommunication...
__________________________________________

I asked you what version you read because I thought your paraphrase was an actual quote from another version of the Bible.

______Quote______________________________
now would you like to discuss the point involved....that kingdom of heaven is described as leaven and not as the dough as a whole.....
____________________________________________

Joint Heir-

There is no way I could proceed with this, cause you keep saying the Kingdom of Heaven is described as leaven. This is not what the Bible says. You are skipping the whole rest of the verse.


_______Quote______________________________
if the leaven is representative of the bad doctrine etc in the kingdom then the kingdom is the dough overall....
__________________________________________

???? I never said that, and if anyone insinuated this, it doesn't make sense. I think I know why you say this. Cause your stuck on thinking that the Leaven is good. This throws everything I am saying off the road. When I say horse, your thinking of a dog.
When I'm speaking of a cat, you visualize a mouse.
So anything I say about the Leaven and its discription is somehow looked at diffently by you. This is why I say
there is no way I could proceed with this. Our definitions are not the same. We are not on the same frequency.


____Quote___________________________________
but the parable teaches that the kingdom is like the leaven working through the dough....so the kingdom is working through something else
______________________________________________

Joint Heir-
Please don't forget that the main deal in these parables is the "Kingdom of Heaven". Its not about the Leaven. Its about this earth in the church age of grace over the pass 2000 years.
Christ is describing how the church age will grow bad.
The Leaven is a symbol used to describe how the church age will be messed up.
Please let me know what version you read.

__________________

[joint heir]

Carlos....are you deliberately being obtuse? Yes I believe that the leaven is good .....that is the whole point of this thread...which you started...

Here is what you said:

My question is,
*
why do some people say that the leaven is good?

*Where did they get this interpratation about the leaven being good?

now I am trying to tell you why I and others believe that the leaven in this case is good and you say that we can not have this conversation because I believe that the leaven is good and you believe that it is bad...


you said:

anything I say about the Leaven and its discription is somehow looked at diffently by you. This is why I say
there is no way I could proceed with this. Our definitions are not the same. We are not on the same frequency.

well of course our frequency is off...because we have a disagreement about the meaning of leaven....why isn't that obvious?


Now if it is your intention to teach us why you think leaven means what it does then....I have heard your view and I understand where you are coming from....I just do not agree that this parable is teaching the same thing as the wheat and the tares parable...or an extention of it...I obviously do not believe the leaven is bad in this parable...which is what I have said many times



I do not believe it is bad because
the kingdom is described as the leaven that spreads through the dough

here it is in several translations

Matthew 13

33He told them still another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount[1] of flour until it worked all through the dough."


Matthew 13


The Leaven

33 He spoke another parable to them, "(1) The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in (2) three pecks of flour until it was all leavened."



Matthew 13
33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.



Matthew 13

33He told them another parable. "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened."


Matthew 13
33 Another simile spake he to them: `The reign of the heavens is like to leaven, which a woman having taken, hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.'



they all say the same darn thing......the kingdom is like leaven which spread through the dough until the whole thing was leavened

the kingdom is like the leaven spread through the dough....the kingdom is not described to be the dough completely leavened where the leavening agent is something that is only part of the kingdom....

the reason I did not recite the verse is because I figured you had read it .....and you knew what it said...

Now are you going to answer the point I have made? or are you going to insult me and wonder yet again whether I am reading some strange version of scripture that you have not heard of..or one you do not approve of.....I have already answered you that I use several versions for everyday use and when studying a verse I use even more.....

the point to respond to:

The kingdom of heaven is like leaven which spreads through the dough..........the parable does not teach that the kingdom is like the dough that has something bad spreading through it ...if it did the word construction would be something to the effect like...

the kingdom of heaven is like dough which a woman took and worked yeast(leaven) through....

with this imaginary construction it is clear that something bad is working through the kingdom

with the real construction of the verse it says somthing to the effect that the kingdom is like leaven that spreads though dough.....the kingdom is smaller than the dough..and then grows ...

Now when you reply to me either answer the point I have made or ask for clarification if you still do not understand.....
but do not ask me again what Bible version I read...because I have already answered you twice and to do so again would be insulting to me and would make you appear to be dim.

now you can choose to respond to this point or we can just agree to disagree......but until someone has refuted this point which I have offered several times I will have to stick with the interpretation I have always been taught.....because I believe it to be the truth

[Carlosabc]

_______Quote__________________________________________________
Carlos....are you deliberately being obtuse? Yes I believe that the leaven is good .....that is the whole point of this thread...which you started...
__________________________________________________

Joint Heir-

I give you three points for the big word “obtuse” that you claim that I am.

Obtuse- stupid and slow to understand. Slow to learn;
1a. Lacking quickness of perception or intellect. b. Characterized by a lack of intelligence or sensitivity: an obtuse remark. c. Not distinctly felt: an obtuse pain.
2a. Not sharp, pointed, or acute in form; blunt. b. Having an obtuse angle: an obtuse triangle. c. Botany. Having a blunt or rounded tip: an obtuse leaf.

Obtuse
Synonyms: birdbrained, dense, dopey, drippy, dull, dumb, flat tire, imperceptive, insensitive, lamebrained, opaque, retarded, slow, stolid, thick, uncomprehending, unintelligent Concept: ignorance

Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? (Gal 4:16). I feel its best to support your argument with the word of God then to resort to degrading high school insults. Never once have I insulted you. If you consider me asking you which version of the Bible you read as an insult, you have taken my question and turned it into a dart that I threw at you. Your interpretation process comes into question. That question about which bible you use is a ligitamate question. No reason to get upset with that one.

______Quote______________________________________
Now are you going to answer the point I have made? or are you going to insult me and wonder yet again whether I am reading some strange version of scripture that you have not heard of..or one you do not approve of.....I have already answered you that I use several versions for everyday use and when studying a verse I use even more..... but do not ask me again what Bible version I read...because I have already answered you twice and to do so again would be insulting to me and would make you appear to be dim.

_____________________________________________________

Joint Heir

You failed to understand what I meant by the question “Which version of the Bible do you use”? You said you use a variation of different Bibles.

I’ll rephrase that confusing question. When you walk into a church (When you go to church on Sundays and don‘t deny that), I am 97.4% sure that you carry some sort of dark colored Bible in your hand or something that closely resembles what’s usually referred to as religious literature. If you tilt that book which has thin pages that you carry to church, tilt it where you will see usually 3 or 4 letters indicating which version of that particular bible (that you walk into a church with) you have [ ie. (NIV, KJV, NKJV, LIV, ] etc.

If this is too personal for you, please feel free to skip this one. Knowing the pattern of your answers, there is a good chance that you will not answer this question either.
I feel deep inside that you feel that your answer to me will somehow give me more ammunition to back my argument in some way. This is not the case. I would never stoop that low.

And please don’t say that you carry a stack of different Bibles to church. No one does that. I don’t know how to make this question any easier.

If you don’t want to answer this, just say “I’d rather not answer this tricky question”, instead of calling me ‘dim’. (Your complements are revealing).

___Quote_________________________________________
I do not believe it is bad because the kingdom is described as the leaven that spreads through the dough
__________________________________________________

Joint Heir. Do you hear what you are saying? “...the leaven that spreads through the dough...” You know what the symbolic meaning behind ‘dough’ is? (By the way, my Bible doesn’t say bread nor dough. It just says: “...till the whole was Leavened”. (KJV and proud of it).

Yes, the Leaven is snuck in 3 portions of the meal by the woman till all of it was leavened.

The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. Matt 13:33

The (KJV) implies that the thing being leavened is ‘bread’. But it doesn’t say ‘bread’ neither does it say ‘dough’.

So, just what is the symbolic meaning behind bread?
I will not answer that. I’ll let the Bible answer that for itself.
(Isn’t that the wise thing to do? To back up biblical argument with verses rather than mere opinion and insults)?

"And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed it and broke it, and gave to the disciples and said, Take, eat; this is My body” (Matt.26:26). By Jesus’ sacrifice, He became the Bread of life for His people, that they may eat of Him and find forgiveness of sin and eternal life. Therefore, the bread symbolically represents the Body of Christ, or the words of Jesus Christ.

...It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Matt 4:4

Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine which I have mingled Prov. 9:6

Cast thy bread upon the waters: for thou shalt find it after many days. 2Give a portion to seven, and also to eight; for thou knowest not what evil shall be upon the earth.
Ecclesiastes 11:1-2.
This means (Cast thy bread upon the waters:) Spread the Word among the Nations, (for thou shalt find it after many days). I.O.W. after sometime, you will see the results. This is of a truth. God’s Word will never go void. There will always be results.

25Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs. 27And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table. 28Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour. Matt. 15:25-28

I.O.W. (It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs) It’s not appropiate to take from the chosen children of God (The Jews); the Word of God
(the Bread) and cast it to the gentiles. (Gentiles were looked at as dogs by the Jews back then). Jesus was not referring to the woman as a dog, but was speaking their cultural language. She was not insulted, but instead showed great faith as a gentile woman towards the words of Christ. Jesus knew what her reaction would be but told her she had great faith for the sake of those witnessing this historic event.

And the Word of God (the bread) back then was to go to the Jews first, then to the Gentiles.
Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Rom 2: 9 - 10 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

So from the above verses, the bread, or dough, is the body of Christ or the Word of God.
You are saying that the Leaven is spreading through the body of Christ or the Word of God? Is that correct? If so, leaven in the bread (of life) is a bad thing.
You have to ignore the biblical meaning of leaven and dough to think otherwise.

_______Quote______________________________________
....I just do not agree that this parable is teaching the same thing as the wheat and the tares parable...or an extention of it...I obviously do not believe the leaven is bad in this parable...which is what I have said many times
________________________________________________

So in describing the Kingdom of God, you feel as if Christ in saying these parables, is changing the subject. These parables are not all connected to reveal one big mystery according to your beliefs. That is ok by me. Its sad that you fail to see what is being conveyed here in the parables. And I can not convince you of the mysteries of the Kingdoms either.

The Church in our age of grace is getting better and better. All Christians are loving and kind, all versions of the Bible are good to study. Boys and girls should be raised the same (let them choose their own gender behavioral traits), [I saw the other Tread by you] Leaven is good, and all is well. Isn’t this special.

This is why I feel it wise to call it quits with this discussion. If I can give you verse after verse concerning the meaning behind the symbols, and you refuse to understand, where do we go from here? I respect the fact that you can not grasp the words of our savior. I do not hold that against you either. You are still my sister in Christ and we will all be sitting at the feet of Christ one day to be told the truth of everything he told us here on earth.

Oh, and about the different translations of Matt 13:33 that you posted: You never told me which versions which was which.

Matthew 13
________Quote____________________________
33He told them still another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount[1] of flour until it worked all through the dough."
_________________________________________

Thanks for this quote. This version ignores some details. It does not mention Leaven, nor does it say that she hid it, and the 3 portions of meal is not mentioned.
It also adds “dough” and deletes the fact that ’till the whole was Leavened.

This is a nice easy to understand, English version. Its sad that detail is left out and modern substances are added for us to relate to all in the name of simplification. This distorts the facts, and derails the message that Christ was trying to get across.
So I can’t blame you for not understanding this parable. The blame lies with the liberal translators. A thump on the head to them. But you (joint heir) being spiritual should be able to see right through the schemes of the devil and how they distorted the Word of God in the name of taking away the ‘thees’ and the ‘thou’s.
People love easy and our generation love modern words. We also fail to look up words that we are not familiar with. That’s the generation that we live in nowadays.
I’m not blaming you. We are all victims of this to a degree.

_____Quote_________________________________________
they all say the same darn thing......the kingdom is like leaven which spread through the dough until the whole thing was leavened
__________________________________________________

I now know where you are coming from. I talked to my niece before about different Bible translations. I showed her some verses and how they contradicted each other in other versions.
She was like: “So what, as long as we get the general idea” (something to that effect). For some, details in the Word of God do not matter. As long as the general, fuzzy hazy, inkling of a spiritual thought comes through.

When these types of (non-detailed) spiritual ones become teachers, their pupils will come out with a religious education that is general, fuzzy and hazy. They have an idea of what they are saying, but it ends up coming out as ‘Theologibablygook’.



_______Quote____________________________________
the point to respond to:

The kingdom of heaven is like leaven which spreads through the dough..........the parable does not teach that the kingdom is like the dough that has something bad spreading through it ...if it did the word construction would be something to the effect like...

the kingdom of heaven is like dough which a woman took and worked yeast(leaven) through....

with this imaginary construction it is clear that something bad is working through the kingdom
_______________________________________________

YES, YES, YES, YOUR ALMOST THERE!!!

_______Quote__________________________________
with the real construction of the verse it says something to the effect that the kingdom is like leaven that spreads though dough.....the kingdom is smaller than the dough..and then grows ...
_____________________________________________

FOUL BALL!!! “kingdom is like leaven that spreads though dough” (dough as in the Body of Christ? The Word of God? The Leaven is spreading through the Word of God? If this is what you mean, we are on the same side of the tracks.
leaven, which is bad doctrine, sin and pride, is indeed spreading through the dough, or through the bread, the Word of God, through the Body of Christ.
If this is what you are saying, I think you got it without knowing it.

________Quote________________________________
Now when you reply to me either answer the point I have made or ask for clarification if you still do not understand.....
______________________________________________

I would love to answer this, but what is the question?

If what you are saying “kingdom is like leaven that spreads though dough”, and you mean it the way I mean it, then you are correct. If you mean this in anther way, then I have a general, fuzzy hazy idea of what you are trying to say.

We could go on and on with this Joint. I feel its wise for me to say no more on this.
I’ll write back if you respond. But we just can’t seem to see eye to eye.

Oh, by the way, which version of the Bible do you use? (When you go to church that is).

Don't forget to answer that. Carlos

[joint heir]

Carlos.....I know what you mean when you ask what version of the Bible I use.........I realize that you do not mean black, blue or burgundy leather......and honestly your assumption that I do not know this leaves me horrified....how can you spend one day on RR and not know this?..not to mention one day in church or a christian book store?

I have chosen not to tell you what version I use specifically because I do not want to get into a KJV only debate...which is where I am suspecting this is going.......

I do not carry several bibles with me to church....because my church does not care which version you use......

I use various versions for various things.....and I quoted several versions to you some that used the word dough.....some that used the word whole (as in the whole was leavened)....can we not assume that the whole is the dough or the bread....she is not leavening a car is she?

For your information....just so that you do not have to spend time in contemplation over it...

I memorize in the KJV

I write in my NIV

I read for chronology in the NLT so that I can read the the stories quickly to get the order and placement of various texts down so that I can reference them quickly

I review the Living because a friend of mine in the Bible Study I host in my home uses it and I like to know what she is reading..

when I come across a text that I am unclear of I use the KJV or nKJV and go back to the greek.....

and I also read on the computer so that I can read almost all of the versions

I am hoping to find some spare change to purchase a few other versions the NASB being one of them....because I only have access to this version on computer

I also use the amplified...but I don't tend to favor it...

I carry whatever is handy to church.....but usually I do not bring my Bible to church because the passage is listed on the bulletin and my hands are full with all my supplies for my children's Sunday school class....I go home and reread the text in whatever versions strike my fancy....

now does that sufficiently answer your questions about my study habits?..

conversation over....

I love you and pray God's blessings over you Carlos,

your sister,
Shelley

[joint heir]

Carlos,...

Did you miss where I said that we all agree that the bad (bad doctrine, false prophets etc) will spread and are spreading....

and that we also agree that the kingdom will grow?

we both agree on these things right?.....are that is being discussed is which of these lessons the parable of the leaven is teaching.......hardly anything worth being frustrated over.....

when I asked if you were being deliberately obtuse I did not mean to suggest anything but than you were trying to ask obvious questions to derail and debate .....hence the word deliberate......but I did say that if you ask again what version I use you will reveal yourself to be dim....because I had already answered twice...you are assuming that someone has to use a certain version predominately.....bad assumption.....;)....I answered you just did not want to accept that because it did not fit your paradigm.


:lol...you are infuriating carlos........but for some reason I am drawn to the infuriating posters here on RR.....I am sure that I will see you on another thread....

it if you are a KJV only then next time we meet ......let me know...I have no problem using only that version if you feel more comfortable that way...it might help to avoid future misunderstandings

[linuxpenguin]

Carlos Said:
”Joint Heir. Do you hear what you are saying? “...the leaven that spreads through the dough...” You know what the symbolic meaning behind ‘dough’ is? (By the way, my Bible doesn’t say bread nor dough. It just says: “...till the whole was Leavened”. (KJV and proud of it). “

Carlos, actually it says:

Luk 13:21 It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. (KJV)

Meal: aleuron
Meaning flour
There is no doubt that she is making bread here.

Carlos Said:
”Yes, the Leaven is snuck in 3 portions of the meal by the woman till all of it was leavened. “

Hid: egkruptō
Meaning incorporate with, to mix
You are attributing a sinister motive by using the word ‘snuck’ when there is no sinister motive here.

Carlos Said:
”This is why I feel it wise to call it quits with this discussion. If I can give you verse after verse concerning the meaning behind the symbols, and you refuse to understand, where do we go from here? I respect the fact that you can not grasp the words of our savior. I do not hold that against you either. You are still my sister in Christ and we will all be sitting at the feet of Christ one day to be told the truth of everything he told us here on earth.”

Carlos, you’ve shown that you can not grasp the words of our Savior in this instance, not the other way around. You’ve also shown that you refuse to research the meaning of words and therefore substitute your own words for our Savior’s.

________Quote____________________________
Matthew 13:33He told them still another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount[1] of flour until it worked all through the dough."
_________________________________________

Carlos Said:
“Thanks for this quote. This version ignores some details. It does not mention Leaven, nor does it say that she hid it, and the 3 portions of meal is not mentioned.
It also adds “dough” and deletes the fact that ’till the whole was Leavened."

Carlos,
Leaven and yeast are the same thing.
The footnote explains the 3 measures being translated as ‘a large amount’
As I have shown you already, the word translated as ‘hid’ means to ‘incorporate with’ which is the same as mixed.
As I have already shown you, it is obvious that bread was being made.
‘until it worked all through the dough’ is the same as ‘the whole was leavened’.

Carlos Said:
”This is a nice easy to understand, English version. Its sad that detail is left out and modern substances are added for us to relate to all in the name of simplification.”

Apparently not that easy to understand. You certainly didn’t understand it. And no details have been left out. Anyone with a decent vocabulary should be able to understand it as equivalent to the KJV.

Carlos Said:
”This distorts the facts, and derails the message that Christ was trying to get across. So I can’t blame you for not understanding this parable.”

It does not distort the facts. You simply don’t understand the language beneath the KJV, so I can’t blame you for not understanding this parable.

Carlos Said:
”I now know where you are coming from. I talked to my niece before about different Bible translations. I showed her some verses and how they contradicted each other in other versions.”

Those who teach falsely are to be judged quite harshly. Perhaps a bit more study is in order before you begin to teach?

Carlos Said:
”When these types of (non-detailed) spiritual ones become teachers, their pupils will come out with a religious education that is general, fuzzy and hazy. They have an idea of what they are saying, but it ends up coming out as ‘Theologibablygook’. “

Exactly, which is why I am urging you to study more before you spread any additional false teachings.

Carlos Said:
”We could go on and on with this Joint. I feel its wise for me to say no more on this.
I’ll write back if you respond. But we just can’t seem to see eye to eye.”

You can’t see eye to eye because you have hardened you heart and turned to false teachings. You are creating your own Gospel. I urge you to pray for understanding before all study sessions.

[joint heir]

well goodness Linuxpenguin...when you lay it out like that I really can see what a bad boy Carlos has been tsk tsk....no wonder I felt my temperature rising.....and I was feeling strain in the back of my neck:lol

thanks for the back up:) I was really trying not to blow a gasket:lol

edit to add:

I think that I am going to take my 3 points that Carlos awarded me for my word usage and retire from this thread....I don't think any good can come from it:)

[linuxpenguin]

Originally posted by joint heir
well goodness Linuxpenguin...when you lay it out like that I really can see what a bad boy Carlos has been tsk tsk....no wonder I felt my temperature rising.....and I was feeling strain in the back of my neck:lol

thanks for the back up:) I was really trying not to blow a gasket:lol

edit to add:

I think that I am going to take my 3 points that Carlos awarded me for my word usage and retire from this thread....I don't think any good can come from it:)

Was I too harsh? I do tend to be lacking in diplomacy at times. I'm working on it. At first I didn't think it was a big deal, but when I see people seemingly try to turn it in to primary doctrine I can't help but try and set things straight.

[joint heir]

No ..not to harsh.....it was a much neeed post....

[Carlosabc]

Joint Heir and linuxpenguin

I now give up this Thread. I knew I would I would never get an answer as to which Bible joint heir uses.

This is to say that you have never carried a bible in the church. Your hands always have Sunday school supplies. Thats fine.
Its hard to believe, but thats ok.

I will never get straight answers. Thats why its good for us to quit right here, which I will do.

linuxpenguin- I do not look at your post as harsh. Let me have it. As long as I know what is really on your mind instead of hiding what you really have to say.
Although I dis-agree with what you say, its good to know what others think out there. Weather its pro or con.
In conclusion, lets all agree to dis-agree. Agreed?

That does not take away the fact that I love you both in the body of Christ. No more posting on this subject for me from here on.

______Quote_____________________________
you are infuriating carlos........but for some reason I am drawn to the infuriating posters here on RR
_______________________________________

joint, the above quote indicates to me that you have a strong personality. Thats good, but it can be dangerous. Why?

______Quote_______________________________
no wonder I felt my temperature rising.....and I was feeling strain in the back of my neck... I was really trying not to blow a gasket
____________________________________________

By the way joint heir, which Bible did you use to carry when you went to church? (LOL). Don't answer that. I'm just kidding.
Lets give up. The score ends at 10 to 7. I got you by three, since you gave up your 3 points. : )

Carlos

[Hootmon]

You disagree with the very clear and factual rebuttal that linuxpenguin just posted?

You may want to use more than a single bible translation in your studies, Carlos. linuxpenguin's analysis seemed very coherent to me.

[Carlosabc]

_____Quote_____________________________
You may want to use more than a single bible translation in your studies, Carlos. linuxpenguin's analysis seemed very coherent to me.
_________________________________________

Is this to say that all of the Bible translations agree with each other? If they differ, which one do you go by?

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by Carlosabc
_____Quote_____________________________
You may want to use more than a single bible translation in your studies, Carlos. linuxpenguin's analysis seemed very coherent to me.
_________________________________________

Is this to say that all of the Bible translations agree with each other? If they differ, which one do you go by? I use several translations when investigating issues like this one, where the precise meaning of the words involved can color the intrepretation.

My favorites are NIV, NKJV, and a Literal Translation.

For instance, it sounds like you are using a translation sililar to NKJV...

Luke 13
21It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.

Whereas the NIV looks like this...

Luke 13
21It is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough."

The point being, that 'hid' sounds deceitful where 'mixed' is not.

[joint heir]

Carlos....you need to read my posts a little more thoroughly

I said:

I carry whatever is handy to church.....but usually I do not bring my Bible to church because the passage is listed on the bulletin and my hands are full with all my supplies for my children's Sunday school class....I go home and reread the text in whatever versions strike my fancy....

[antsinmypants]

Carlos, am still investigating.

I do suggest as have the others that you check out the other translations.

Www.e-sword.net

Download every one, and the commentaries and concordances and you will be just as set as anyone who graduated from ANY Bible Institute

[linuxpenguin]

Originally posted by Carlosabc
Joint linuxpenguin- I do not look at your post as harsh. Let me have it. As long as I know what is really on your mind instead of hiding what you really have to say.
Although I dis-agree with what you say, its good to know what others think out there. Weather its pro or con.
In conclusion, lets all agree to dis-agree. Agreed?


Agreed. But I urge you to continue to look in to the issue with a prayerful mind, as will I. And I totally concur with Ant's suggestion to go get E-Sword. It's free and is the best Bible library and study tool out there. Comparing versions, and looking up the individual word's Greek or Hebrew meaning is very easy in E-Sword.

[antsinmypants]

wheeeeeeeeeeee!!

Someone agreed with me!

:D :lol

[Carlosabc]

I had E-Sword up to about a month ago. I deleted it, cause it took up too much space in my computer. Darn!

_____Quote_____________________________
I carry whatever is handy to church.....but usually I do not bring my Bible to church because the passage is listed on the bulletin and my hands are full with all my supplies for my children's Sunday school class....I go home and reread the text in whatever versions strike my fancy....
_________________________________________

Joint Heir-

I understand. You said that you go home and reread the text in whatever versions strikes your fancy. I respect that, but I couldn't do that.
I'm a KJV man. I respect your way of investigating Bible verses, but I have a different way. I hope my KJV way is respected by you as well.

[antsinmypants]

The only problem with that Carlos, is that the KJV is not flawless. It has many mistranslations in it still.

I respect you for reading it. I, myself read it- but not without other translations and e-sword handy. I do alot of word studies, using the KJV+.

But, as many things aren't translated as they are written in the greek and hebrew, I have trouble reading a KJV. IT says "Do not add, nor take away from my words..." and in my studies, I've seen additions and subtractions.

Don't hit me over the head ::Ducks:: please...
:tin

I've put forth alot of effort to find truth out there, and it's hard. You do have to go back to the origionals.

[Hootmon]

If you are serious about Bible study, then sticking with a single translation is a mistake, IMO. It leaves you open to translation errors and archaic language mistakes.

Its fine to have a favorite translation, but you should check your findings against other versions as well.

[antsinmypants]

::nods::

And what was kept accurate by scribes-- the originals.
Remember, only scribes are held by that 'law' of "MUST BE PERFECT OR BURN IT"...
The ppl translating the KJV and other translations do have errors. Our language is different (Slightly) from the ones they are translated from. If you dont' understand the origional context, you leave room for major errors.

So just a friendly word of advice, ALWAYS go back to the origional before basing your ideas on anything.

That is why I'm taking so long on this. I want to study it IN DEPTH. It has more than a face value. It has MUCH meaning behind it... and I intend to find it :D ;)

Will post when I find out what it say exactly

[joint heir]

Carlos....of course I respect your views...disagree with but respect:)...that is why I suggested earlier that we discuss using the KJV alone next time.....

it might prevent a lot of confusion....remind me next time we disagree ...I may forget:)

[Carlosabc]

Alrighty then. Thanks. Carlos