Maestro
May 12th, 2003, 12:57 PM
OOps, I was totally unclear in me question again... d'oh!
I can read the Bible. Are we to expect these 144,000 to have already died... are somestill alive today? If they're from the twelve tribes (interestingly including Joseph and Manessah, but not Ephraim) then surely we need to know who the twelve tribes are today? It is my understanding (but I'm open to corrrection) that the Jews we kow today are only of the tribes of Judah and Levi, so where are the others?
Hootmon
May 12th, 2003, 02:41 PM
Scripture seems to indicate that the 144000 are alive at the time they are sealed.Revelation 7
1 And after these things I saw four messengers, standing upon the four corners of the land, holding the four winds of the land, that the wind may not blow upon the land, nor upon the sea, nor upon any tree;
2 and I saw another messenger going up from the rising of the sun, having a seal of the living God, and he did cry with a great voice to the four messengers, to whom it was given to injure the land and the sea, saying,
3 `Do not injure the land, nor the sea, nor the trees, till we may seal the servants of our God upon their foreheads.'Otherwise, why would the 4 Angels need to withhold the 4 winds if the 144000 werent still on the Earth?
7Rock
May 12th, 2003, 11:14 PM
Dusty and Hootmon are both right.
I don`t remember the verse, but the bible says the House of Israel will be sifted among all the nations of the earth but not one will hit the ground.
It also says they will lose their identity, unlike the House of Judah which will always keep its identity be recognized for the sign of God, which is its keeping of the Sabbath.
It sounds to me like their are a lot of Israelites out there, and even they don`t know their Israelites!
It also says that in the last days the House of Israel will be joined TO the House of Judah, to become one nation again. God used two sticks representing the two separate peoples to illustrate this.
antsinmypants
May 16th, 2003, 12:37 AM
Geneva Bible : Rev 7:4 - And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed (5) an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
(5) That is, of the Jews a number certain in itself before God, and such as may be numbered of us: for which cause also the same is here set down as certain. But of the elect who are Gentiles, the number indeed is in itself certain with God, but of us not possibly to be numbered, as God, (Gen_15:5). This is spoken with respect, when a certain number is put for one uncertain. Compare with (Rev_7:9).
Gill: Rev 7:4 - And I heard the number of them which were sealed,.... And therefore could be sure of the exact number, which did not depend upon his sight, and telling them, in which some mistake might have been made, but he heard the number expressed:
and there were sealed an hundred and forty, and four thousand: which is a square number arising from twelve, the square root of it, being just twelve times twelve thousand; and may denote their being the true and genuine offspring of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, holding their doctrine, and being built on their foundation; see Rev_21:14; and these were
of all the tribes of the children of Israel; not that these were all Jews in a literal sense, for the time of their conversion in great numbers is not yet come. Dr. Goodwin thinks these sealed ones design the believers of the Greek and Armenian churches, and his reasons are not despicable; but this is to limit and restrain them to a particular part of the church of Christ; whereas they take in all the saints within this long tract of time, even all that are the true Israel of God, who are Jews inwardly, of what nation, kindred, tongue, and people soever; and is a certain and determinate number for an uncertain and indeterminate one; and only intends a large number of persons known to God and Christ; see the Apocrypha:
"Arise up and stand, behold the number of those that be sealed in the feast of the Lord;'' (2 Esdras 2:38)
Henry: II. An account of the sealing of the servants of God, where observe, 1. To whom this work was committed - to an angel, another angel. While some of the angels were employed to restrain Satan and his agents, another angel was employed to mark out and distinguish the faithful servants of God. 2. How they were distinguished - the seal of God was set upon their foreheads, a seal known to him, and as plain as if it appeared in their foreheads; by this mark they were set apart for mercy and safety in the worst of times. 3. The number of those that were sealed, where observe, (1.) A particular account of those that were sealed of the twelve tribes of Israel - twelve thousand out of every tribe, the whole sum amounting to a hundred and forty-four thousand. In this list the tribe of Dan is omitted, perhaps because they were greatly addicted to idolatry; and the order of the tribes is altered, perhaps according as they had been more or less faithful to God. Some take these to be a select number of the Jews who were reserved for mercy at the destruction of Jerusalem; others think that time was past, and therefore it is to be more generally applied to God's chosen remnant in the world; but, if the destruction of Jerusalem was not yet over (and I think it is hard to prove that it was), it seems more proper to understand this of the remnant of that people which God had reserved according to the election of grace, only here we have a definite number for an indefinite. (2.) A general account of those who were saved out of other nations (Rev_7:9): A great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues. Though these are not said to be sealed, yet they were selected by God out of all nations, and brought into his church, and there stood before the throne. Observe, [1.] God will have a greater harvest of souls among the Gentiles than he had among the Jews. More are the children of the desolate than of the married woman. [2.] The Lord knows who are his, and he will keep them safe in times of dangerous temptation. [3.] Though the church of God is but a little flock, in comparison of the wicked world, yet it is no contemptible society, but really large and to be still more enlarged.
III. We have the songs of saints and angels on this occasion, Rev_7:9-12, where observe,
1. The praises offered up by the saints (and, as it seems to me, by the Gentile believers) for the care of God in reserving so large a remnant of the Jews, and saving them from infidelity and destruction. The Jewish church prayed for the Gentiles before their conversion, and the Gentile churches have reason to bless God for his distinguishing mercy to so many of the Jews, when the rest were cut off. Here observe, (1.) The posture of these praising saints: they stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, before the Creator and the Mediator. In acts of religious worship we come nigh to God, and are to conceive ourselves as in his special presence; and we must come to God by Christ. The throne of God would be inaccessible to sinners were it not for a Mediator. (2.) Their habit: they were clothed with white robes, and had palms in their hands; they were invested with the robes of justification, holiness, and victory, and had palms in their hands, as conquerors used to appear in their triumphs: such a glorious appearance will the faithful servants of God make at last, when they have fought the good fight of faith and finished their course. (3.) Their employment: they cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God who sitteth upon the throne, and to the Lamb. This may be understood either as a hosannah, wishing well to the interest of God and Christ in the church and in the world, or as a hallelujah, giving to God and the Lamb the praise of the great salvation; both the Father and the Son are joined together in these praises; the Father contrived this salvation, the Son purchased it, and those who enjoy it must and will bless the Lord and the Lamb, and they will do it publicly, and with becoming fervour.
JFB: Rev 7:4 - Twelve is the number of the tribes, and appropriate to the Church: three by four: three, the divine number, multiplied by four, the number for world-wide extension. Twelve by twelve implies fixity and completeness, which is taken a thousandfold in 144,000. A thousand implies the world perfectly pervaded by the divine; for it is ten, the world number, raised to the power of three, the number of God.
of all the tribes--literally, "out of every tribe"; not 144,000 of each tribe, but the aggregate of the twelve thousand from every tribe.
children--Greek, "sons of Israel." Rev_3:12; Rev_21:12, are no objection, as ALFORD thinks, to the literal Israel being meant; for, in consummated glory, still the Church will be that "built on the foundation of the (Twelve) apostles (Israelites), Jesus Christ (an Israelite) being the chief corner-stone." Gentile believers shall have the name of Jerusalem written on them, in that they shall share the citizenship antitypical to that of the literal Jerusalem.
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary: Rev 7:1-8 -
In the figurative language of Scripture, the blowing of the four winds together, means a dreadful and general destruction. But the destruction is delayed. Seals were used to mark for each person his own possessions. This mark is the witness of the Holy Ghost, printed in the hearts of believers. And the Lord would not suffer his people to be afflicted before they were marked, that they might be prepared against all conflicts. And, observe, of those who are thus sealed by the Spirit, the seal must be on the forehead, plainly to be seen alike by friends and foes, but not by the believer himself, except as he looks stedfastly in the glass of God's word. The number of those who were sealed, may be understood to stand for the remnant of people which God reserved. Though the church of God is but a little flock, in comparison with the wicked world, yet it is a society really large, and to be still more enlarged. Here the universal church is figured under the type of Israel.
People's New Testament:
Rev 7:4-8 -
And I heard the number of them which were sealed. The number first named is one hundred and forty-four thousand, twelve thousand from each of the twelve tribes of Israel. These numbers are not to be taken literally, but only signify that a great number, not a countless number, but a part of each tribe of Israel, accepted the gospel. Of the tribes Ephraim appears under the name of Joseph, and Dan is entirely omitted, a fact possibly due to the early falling away of Dan into idolatry The number twelve is preserved by counting Levi. For another appearance of the one hundred and forty-four thousand, see Rev_14:1.
RObertson's word pictures:
Out of every tribe of the children of Israel (ek pāsēs phulēs huiōn Israēl). There are two opposite views here, one taking the sealed as referring only to Jews (either actual Jews as a remnant or just Jewish [Believers]), the other including Gentiles as well as Jewish [Believers] , that is the true Israel as in Rev_2:9; Rev_3:9. and like Paul in Galatians and Romans. This is the more probable view and it takes the twelve tribes in a spiritual sense. But in either view there remains the difficulty about names of the tribes. The list is not geographical, since Levi is included, but Dan is omitted and Manasseh put in his place, though he as the son of Joseph is included in Joseph. Irenaeus suggested that Anti[Messiah] was expected to come from the tribe of Dan and hence the omission here. There are various lists of the tribes in the O.T. (Gen_35:22.; Gen_46:8.; Gen 49; Exo_1:1.; Num_1:2; Num_13:4; Num_26:34; Deu_27:11.; Deu_33:6.; Josh 13-22; Judges 5; 1 Chron 2-8; 1Ch_12:24.; 1Ch_27:16.; Ezek 48) and given in various orders. In 1Ch_7:12 both Dan and Zebulon are omitted. Joseph is given here in place of Ephraim. The distribution is equal (12,000) to each tribe.
Vincent's Word pictures:
Rev 7:4 -
An hundred and forty and four thousand
Not literally, but the number symbolical of fixedness and full completion (12 x 12). The interpretations, as usual, vary greatly, dividing generally into two great classes: one holding that only Jews are meant, the other including the whole number of the elect both Jew and Gentile. Of the former class some regard the sealed as representing Jewish believers chosen out of the literal Israel. Others add to this the idea of these as forming the nucleus of glorified humanity to which the Gentiles are joined. Others again regard them as Jews reserved by God until Antichrist comes, to maintain in the bosom of their nation a true belief in Jehovah and His law, like the seven thousand in the days of Elijah.
The interpretation of the latter class seems entitled to the greater weight. According to the Apocalyptic usage, Jewish terms are “christianized and heightened in their meaning, and the word “Israel” is to be understood of all Christians, the blessed company of all faithful people, the true Israel of God.” See Rom_2:28, Rom_2:29; Rom_9:6, Rom_9:7; Gal_6:16; Phi_3:3. The city of God, which includes all believers, is designated by the Jewish name, New Jerusalem. In Rev_7:3, the sealed are designated generally as the servants of God. In chapter 14 the one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed are mentioned after the description of the enemies of Christ, who have reference to the whole Church of Christ; and the mention of the sealed is followed by the world-wide harvest and vintage of the earth. The one hundred and forty-four thousand in chapter 14, have the Father's name written in their foreheads; and in Rev_22:4, all the inhabitants of the New Jerusalem are so marked. In Rev_21:12, the twelve tribes include all believers. The mark of Satan which is in the forehead, is set upon all his servants without distinction of race. See Rev_13:16, Rev_13:17; Rev_14:9; Rev_16:2; Rev_19:20; Rev_20:4. The plagues threaten both Jews and Gentiles, as the sealing protects all.
John Wesley:
Rev 7:4 - Of the children of Israel - To these will afterwards be joined a multitude out of all nations. But it may be observed, this is not the number of all the Israelites who are saved from Abraham or Moses to the end of all things; but only of those who were secured from the plagues which were then ready to fall on the earth. It seems as if this book had, in many places, a special view to the people of Israel.
vBulletin® v3.6.8, Copyright ©2000-2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.