Were Mathew and Mark colorblind?

[slyguy]

Ok, they probably weren't but after reading their accounts on the moments before Jesus's execution I ran into some confusion. It's like this:

Mathew Chapter 27
26: Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.
27: Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the common hall, and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers.
28: And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.
29: And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!

Mark Chapter 15
15: And so Pilate, willing to content the people, released Barabbas unto them, and delivered Jesus, when he had scourged him, to be crucified.
16: And the soldiers led him away into the hall, called Praetorium; and they call together the whole band.
17: And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head,
18: And began to salute him, Hail, King of the Jews!

Notice the difference in the colors of the robe which Jesus wore: scarlet and purple... I thought scarlet was a deep red, but to clarify I looked it up on www.dictionary.com and found it to be a "vivid red" or "orange red"... why did one say purple and the other say red? Do the two colors look a lot alike?

[Timothy]

Interesting. Besides this, I recall that there are several other so-called "contradictions" in Matthew through John. Here are some initial thoughts:


Webster's 1828 Dictionary has the following as definition #2 for purple used as an adjective:

"In poetry, red or livid; dyed with blood."


In looking at the Greek words, yes they are different.

SCARLET
Matthew 27:28 Strong's 2847

PURPLE
Mark 15:17 Strong's 4209
John 19:2 Strong's 4210


Now note the verse following, which uses 2847 and 4209.

Revelation 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication"


Satan the great imitator! I see a couple plausible answers:

1 - As they gave him a crown of thorns, the robe must have been old in used. Colors fade when clothes are old and used.
2 - The rob may have had two colors.


I'll give it some more thought when I get home tonight, and have access to some of my reference books.

[Joyous_n_Jesus]

No they were not color blind :lol

Look at each account again and reread them slowly.......you will find that at 3 different times they placed 3 different robes on Jesus.......
1. Matt. 27:27
Then the SOLDIERS of the governor took Jesus into the common hall and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers.
And they STRIPPED him and put on him a scarlet robe.

2. Luke 23:11
And Herod with his men of war set him at nought, and mocked him, and arrayed him in a "GORGEOUS ROBE" and sent him again to Pilate.

3. John 19:1-2
Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged him.
And the soldiers plaited a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a PURPLE ROBE.
(Mark corresponds with John)

Scarlet is red
Purple is purple
Gorgeous Robe is WHITE

These are the colors of the veil.........but one is missing and that being Blue......now the "coat" which is an undergarment (seamless garment of Jesus) the traditional color for that was BLUE.........according to Illustrated Dictionary of the Bible........

Perfect picture for the colors of the veil of the Temple.... :) which we know according to Paul was Jesus' flesh.......

Hope that helps :)

[slyguy]

Are you sure there were 3 different occasions with 3 different robes, Joyous_n_Jesus? I can see the 2 different occasions between the gorgeous robe and the scarlet/purple robe, but...
Notice that in BOTH Mathew and Mark Jesus is in the common hall, immediately AFTER Barnabas is released, with the band of soldiers, and the crown of thorns. It's the same event, but still, a different color is recorded in each book for the robe.

[galvy]

In one instance, there was little light. Thus, the difficulty of judging the color of the robe! :P

[Joyous_n_Jesus]

Without doubt they put 3 different robes on Jesus :)

First Robe
Luke 23:11
And Herod with his men of war set him at nought, and mocked him, and arrayed him in a "GORGEOUS ROBE" and sent him again to Pilate.

Second Robe
John 19:1-2
Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged him.
And the soldiers plaited a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a PURPLE ROBE.
(Mark corresponds with John) He is presented to the crowd here..

Third Robe
Matt. 27:27
Then the SOLDIERS of the governor took Jesus into the common hall and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers.
And they STRIPPED him and put on him a scarlet robe.

The soldiers striped him here and placed another robe on Him and mocked him and bowed. No crowd.....just the soldiers...then they lead him to be crucified.

I found a site that agree's and it explains to much better than I ever could. :)

http://goldenminutes.org/Bible%20Study/Tabernacle/Lesson%206.htm

Cool part is they even thought Jesus' own garment was blue! I needed this site when I did my study.....would have been a lot less footwork :lol

[christiansrock]

the original gospels at hand were mark and matthew... you didn't mention mark in your last post...

[Joyous_n_Jesus]

(Mark corresponds with John) He is presented to the crowd here..

I think I did :) All four Gospels are very important regardless who was written first, for they were all inspired by God's Holy Spirit. They each one was needed to give us a complete picture so to speak on the accounts of Jesus' birth, life, death, burial and resurrection.

They compliment one another, it is like percept upon percept, percept upon percept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little there a little........

The Word simply amazes me, because I know beyond a shadow of a doubt anything to do with the Tabernacle, the Priest's, the law, and the sacrifices if I pray and study, read and meditate on God's Word, He will show me, the fulfillment in Christ Jesus :) In the OT He is concealed, but in the NT He is revealed.......that is simply beyond our minds comprehension how magnificent and awesome God truly is....

[hermit]

The answer is fairly simple.

Mark 15:24
And they crucified him. Dividing up his clothes, they cast lots to see what each would get.


Slyguy, you were assuming that Jesus only wore a robe. This verse shows he had more than one item of clothing. The robe was scarlet, and there was likely an outer garment, perhaps a cloak, of purple.

[slyguy]

Yes he might have had more clothes than a robe, but that's not the issue. He didn't have the purple robe at his crucifixion:

Mark 15:20
they took off the purple from him, and put his own clothes on him

Nor did Jesus have the scarlet robe on him when he was led to the crucifixion:

Mathew 27:31
they took the [scarlet] robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him

These robes did not belong to Jesus' wardrobe, the soldiers just took some other dude's robe so they could do some mocking.

[Doulos]

I think that there is a different way to look at this. Whether there were 3 robes, 2 robes or 1 robe that was multi-hued, the gospel writters emphasized what they did for a reason.

Colors have meaning. Scarlet represents sin and the blood shed for sin. Purple represents royalty and kingship. And, white represents purity or sinlessness. If we understand this, we can see how the gospels can thus not only be harmonized but better understood.

[hermit]

Well, Doulos, I don't like the idea that the gospel writers purposely made up details as symbols. To me that would indicate they were playing a bit fast and loose with the truth, as liberal theology would have it. On the other hand I'm not so conservative as to suggest that every last word in the KJV Bible (or even the originals) was perfectly inspired by God. I think they are honest and quite accurate accounts written by men who had witnessed divine interventions ... men who could (and did) make small mistakes in remembering minor details.

Nonetheless I think the number of true contradictions is quite small, and I'm fascinated on occasion by efforts to harmonize. Someone here remembered purple, someone else remembered red .... or as you suggest the robe had both colors. Or perhaps the flogging was so brutal as to soak a purple robe, turning it scarlet.

Remember that Roman floggings weren't just a simple whipping, but had three leather strands embedded with bits of metal or bone at the ends. Witnesses wrote of flesh being torn off down to the spine and ribs in some cases, often killing the person being flogged.

So perhaps one witness remembered the purple being put on, another remembered the bloodied garment being taken off. I suppose that would only work if the robe were very pale purple to begin with, remember it was an expensive dye.

Joyous_n_Jesus, I just noticed your post, but that link didn't really resolve this perfectly.

[slyguy]

Originally posted by hermit
Well, Doulos, I don't like the idea that the gospel writers purposely made up details as symbols. To me that would indicate they were playing a bit fast and loose with the truth, as liberal theology would have it.

I agree Hermit. Doulos, I understand that there are symbols used in the Bible, and I understand that the passages are talking about a more important thing - Christ's crucifixion and resurrection. However, this discrepancy in details has just irritated me. I'm under the impression that the Bible is the whole truth, therefore every part will match up, and discrepancies such as the robe color won't show up. But, it seems a contradiction has occurred, and I'd like to get to the bottom of it.

Joyous_n_Jesus, the website helped to clarify, and I understand what you're saying, but it just seems hard for me to believe that Matthew, Mark and John are talking about 2 different robes. Allow me to explain:

Mark Chapter 15:
16: And the soldiers led him away into the hall, called Praetorium; and they call together the whole band.
17: And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head,
18: And began to salute him, Hail, King of the Jews!
19: And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him.
20: And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple from him, and put his own clothes on him, and led him out to crucify him.

Mathew Chapter 27:
27: Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the common hall, and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers.
28: And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.
29: And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!
30: And they spit upon him, and took the reed, and smote him on the head.
31: And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.

Both passages talk about a different colored robe... but notice the similarities, they mock him in a hall, with soldiers present. The only difference is that Mark says "whole band" and Matthew says "whole band of soldiers." Also, Mark names the hall as "Praetorium" while Mathew refers to it as a "common hall."

But, notice they put on a robe, crown of thorns, and reed in his right hand. They then beat Him with the reed, spit, etc. Afterwards they put on his old clothes, and lead him away to be crucified. To me that's the biggest evidence that this is the same moment that both passages are talking about: immediately after they mock him they "led him away to crucify him." This proves true in both passages, but still we have the discrepancy between colors.

[Joyous_n_Jesus]

All I can suggest is pray and seek God earnestly for your answers Slyguy :) He will answer in His time and open this "mystery" up to you that I am sure of.

I really do not have the time now to get into this, but if you are still around in Oct. then I will. I take a leave from the "net" during the summer months, and it is that time of year again..........so I will be disconnected soon. I do pray that what you are seeking for will be opened to you..........and when it is..........you may do as I have..........Hit yourself on the head and say, "It was there all along! and I never saw it" :lol

I do that alot...........

God Bless
YSIC
Pam

[slyguy]

Thanks, Joyous_n_Jesus. I've been praying about it, perhaps the answer will be revealed to me later. I guess it's not that big of a deal, but I will continue searching.

[Doulos]

Originally posted by hermit
Well, Doulos, I don't like the idea that the gospel writers purposely made up details as symbols. To me that would indicate they were playing a bit fast and loose with the truth, as liberal theology would have it.

I don't think that emphasizing one thing over another to make a point is playing fast and loose with the truth at all. Each of the gospel accounts were written for different reasons. That alone would make them different in perspective. If you are Luke and portraying Jesus' humanity you will bring out different details than Matthew, who showed Jesus as the Messiah and fulfiller of prophecy. Emphasis to acheive such objectives is not in the least bit devious since the gospels are not, nor do they pretend to be, a purely objective full chronical of the events.

[hermit]

This proves true in both passages, but still we have the discrepancy between colors. There are lots of differing but minor details between the gospels, slyguy. Read the chronology of this event in John vs the others! That's the reason I had to drop the idea of perfect biblical inerrancy, but there are reasons I believe the gospels are reliable, human testimonies to divine interventions.I don't think that emphasizing one thing over another to make a point is playing fast and loose with the truth at all. I don't either, but liberal theologians would go a step further than saying it was a matter of emphasis: they would say the gospel writers were making up quite a lot of details, sayings etc to be purely symbolic in illustration of some points they were trying to make. For example they would say there weren't really 12 literal apostles, that number was only made up to represent the 12 tribes of Israel.

[M. Hawbaker]

The Greek word translated as "robe" in Matthew's account is "Chlamus."

The Greek word translated as "robe" in John's account is "Himation."

Therefore, we may conclude that the robe which Pilate's soldiers placed on Jesus consisted of two seperate garmets: a purple inner garmet (Himation) and a scarlet outer garmet (Chlamus).

[Doulos]

Originally posted by hermit
There are lots of differing but minor details between the gospels, slyguy. Read the chronology of this event in John vs the others! That's the reason I had to drop the idea of perfect biblical inerrancy, but there are reasons I believe the gospels are reliable, human testimonies to divine interventions. I don't either, but liberal theologians would go a step further than saying it was a matter of emphasis: they would say the gospel writers were making up quite a lot of details, sayings etc to be purely symbolic in illustration of some points they were trying to make. For example they would say there weren't really 12 literal apostles, that number was only made up to represent the 12 tribes of Israel.

Liberal theologians are prone to many errors, but I hadn't noticed anyone arguing their point of view.

As far as inerrancy goes, I don't think that you can find a so-called error that can't be explained by either differing perspectives or time-lines. The only possible exception to this are a couple places where counts are made in the OT where Hebrew scholars admit that a copying error may have crept in. Even then, this may not actually even be a copying error, but rather supplemental information.

[slyguy]

Originally posted by M. Hawbaker
The Greek word translated as "robe" in Matthew's account is "Chlamus."

The Greek word translated as "robe" in John's account is "Himation."

Therefore, we may conclude that the robe which Pilate's soldiers placed on Jesus consisted of two seperate garmets: a purple inner garmet (Himation) and a scarlet outer garmet (Chlamus).

wow, that makes perfect sense, thanks M. Hawbaker! I investigated a little into your chlamus/himation idea and found my answer: (hope the link works)

http://64.58.76.136/search/cache?p=Himation+and+chlamus&vm=i&n=20&fl=0&url=RhXZTwncT-YC:members.truepath.com/crosscountry4jesus/index40.html

Down towards the bottom, number 39 explains this thing that was irritating me. The website uses the orginal Greek to deduce that Jesus was dressed with a purple tunic and then a soldier mockingly put on a scarlet cloak over the tunic (Roman soldiers had scarlet cloaks as part of uniform). Well that's it! I do believe I have found my answer, and without a contradiction!

[M. Hawbaker]

Glad I could help.

For a long time, I was greatly troubled by the seeming contradiction between these "robe accounts"; but a year or so back, I was doing a study on the various Greek words used in the Bible for "robe", "cloak", "garmet", etc. and the chlamus/himation connection just seemed to jump out at me.

By the way, I agree with Joyous-N-Jesus that Luke's account is refering to a seperate incident which took place earlier the same night, but I believe that Matthew, Mark, and John are definitly describing the same event.

Matthew just gives additional information (the use of the scarlet cloak) that Mark and John chose to omit.


P.S. Thanks for the link. Over the last few years, I've visited many good sites (and read many good books) which attempt to refute allegded Biblical contradictions, but this is the first one I've come across that supports my theory on the robe's color.

[Joyous_n_Jesus]

By the way, I agree with Joyous-N-Jesus that Luke's account is refering to a seperate incident which took place earlier the same night, but I believe that Matthew, Mark, and John are definitly describing the same event.

That is AWESOME!! I did not see that!

God simply showed me there were 3 different robes...... so I thought there was 3 different instances WOW!

So there is 2 instances and 3 robes thank you so much for jumping in here and opening my eyes as well as Slyguys.


This is a huge treat for me, and I thank you so much. A perfect going "away" gift is what you have given me. :D

Thank You so much!
YSIC
PAM