Help with the Trinity needed.

[Maestro]

I have a close friend who's entire 20 year study of the Bible has been with the Jehovah's Witnesses using the New World Translation as his only source. Although he'll happily look at other Bibles from time to time he will always side on the NWT whenever there's a discrepancy. We've been talking a lot recently about the Trinity: I try to convince him that God came as Man to save us all because he loves us, but he keeps coming back with scripture which implies that Jesus is not God. I fear that I'm losing the battle after our recent look into 1 John 5:7 which, in my King James Version says "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." I thought this was good ammunition indeed until we looked into it further - it turns out that most other modern translation only say "For there are three that bear record in heaven" and do not mention the Trinity. Looking even further into the history of the New Testament it appears that the second half of the passage was added only to a limited number of greek manuscripts around the 16th century and that it was the Catholic Church who insisted that they were included in the Textus Recepticus and consequently the KJV. This has dealt a major blow to my argument and left me somewhat dry.

I need your prayers and some more ammunition. I'm sure there must be those out there who've already stood where I stand and with some good answers for Jehovah's Witnesses. Anybody got anything good for me to help him with?

:confused

[antsinmypants]

here's a website that may or may not help... and while i'm thinking of it, here's a few others:

http://www.triunegod.org/

http://www.cephasministry.com/

http://www.waltermartin.org/tools.html

http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/

http://www.ankerberg.com/index.html

http://www.cornerstonechurchonline.com/biblestu.htm

[Proudmommy]

What does this person have to say about John 14? I noticed that chapter today as I was reading. It seemed, to me atleast, that Jesus was being very clear about the Trinity.

John 14


Jesus Comforts His Disciples

1 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
4 You know the way to the place where I am going."

Jesus the Way to the Father

5 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.
12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.
14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit

15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command.
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever--
17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.
21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"
23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
25 "All this I have spoken while still with you.
26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
28 "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe.
30 I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me,
31 but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
"Come now; let us leave.

Can you tell me how that chapter compares to the NWT chapter?

[glorydays]

Maestro,

I hope I'm not too late. Show your friend Rev 1:11 -- "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last." Ask him who that is. He'll say God -- they all do.

Now take him down to Rev 1:17 -- "Fear not, I am the first and the last:..." God again, right?

1:18 -- "I am he that liveth and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen..." Question: when was God dead? When did He die? The only logical answer is He died as Christ!

This scripture reads the same in their Bible to my knowledge. I have presented it to a JW before but not so as to prove him wrong -- just to show his inconsistency. He didn't have an answer.

[Proudmommy]

That is a very good point Glorydays.

[trustnHim]

I used to be a JW and I recently posted on this issue in apologetics in three different posts. They are titled : Debating the deity of Christ with a JW? parts 1, 2, & 3.

[Maestro]

Originally posted by trustnHim
I used to be a JW and I recently posted on this issue in apologetics in three different posts. They are titled : Aruging the deity of Christ with a JW? parts 1, 2, & 3.

Thank you, that will be most useful.

And thank you all - I'm well on the cse, battering his inbox with scriptural references :D