Generation or Race?????

[Crescendo]

In both Matthew and Mark, Christ talks about the end-time events taking place before 'this generation passes'. That makes it a natural to believe that when Israel was regathered in the late 40s, the clock began. However, my Bible (KJV, Thompson Chain Reference) says that an alternate word for 'generation' could be race. This would say that before the race of Jews passes away, the events will take place.

With that in mind, it would seem that there is some question as to the accuracy of the translation (1) and how close are we (2)? If its the generation, I'd say we're close to seeing more and more prophesy fulfilled faster and faster. If its a race that will pass away then maybe not.

Any scholars out there familiar with this wording? Maybe the history or differences that could clear the air?

Thanks,

[dman]

I am not familar with the wording how ever generation = Race is how was taught and understand it ...


it's not so much a question of accuracy of the translation as it is the way we understand some words and the way some words translate from one tongue to another...

THe Generation or Race was made by God through
Abraham and the covenant to make him a great nation God then told him his name will be Israel ...

Israel is Abraham and his Descendants hence you could call it a generation or Race A people, it was on the day that covenant was made that Israel would become a great nation according to God ...

Remember dating things is not really biblical 48 is when Israel was recognized as a nation by other by the industrial world but God recognized it thousands of years before he is the author and finisher of the word not the Industrailized world :) ...

[antsinmypants]

Mat 24:34

(ALT) "Positively, I say to you*, this generation [or, race] shall by no means pass away until all these [things] happen.

(ASV) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished.

(BBE) Truly I say to you, This generation will not come to an end till all these things are complete.

(CEV) I can promise you that some of the people of this generation will still be alive when all this happens.

(Darby) Verily I say to you, This generation will not have passed away until all these things shall have taken place.

(DRB) Amen I say to you that this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.

(FLS) Je vous le dis en vérité, cette génération ne passera point, que tout cela n'arrive.

(GEB) Wahrlich, ich sage euch: Dieses Geschlecht wird nicht vergehen, bis alles dieses geschehen ist.

(GLB) Wahrlich ich sage euch: Dies Geschlecht wird nicht vergehen, bis daß dieses alles geschehe.

(GNB) Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died.


(GW) "I can guarantee this truth: This generation will not disappear until all these things take place.

(ISV) Truly I tell you, this generation will not disappear until these things happen.

(KJV) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

(KJV+) Verily281 I say3004 unto you,5213 This3778 generation1074 shall not3364 pass,3928 till2193, 302 all3956 these things5023 be fulfilled.1096

(KJVA) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

(LITV) Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred.

(MKJV) Truly I say to you, This generation shall not pass until all these things are fulfilled.

(MSG) Don't take this lightly. I'm not just saying this for some future generation, but for all of you. This age continues until all these things take place.

(SRV) De cierto os digo, que no pasará esta generación, que todas estas cosas no acontezcan.

(SSE) De cierto os digo, que no pasará esta edad, que todas estas cosas no acontezcan.

(Vulgate) amen dico vobis quia non praeteribit haec generatio donec omnia haec fiant

(WEB) Most assuredly I tell you, this generation will not pass away, until all these things are accomplished.

(Webster) Verily I say to you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things shall be fulfilled.

(YLT) Verily I say to you, this generation may not pass away till all these may come to pass.



Albert Barnes:
Mat 24:34 -
This generation ... - This age; this race of people. A generation is about 30 or 40 years. The destruction of Jerusalem took place about forty years after this was spoken. See the notes at Mat_16:28.



Adam Clarke's:
Mat 24:34 -
This generation shall not pass - Η γενεα αυτη, this race; i.e. the Jews shall not cease from being a distinct people, till all the counsels of God relative to them and the Gentiles be fulfilled. Some translate η γενεα αυτη, this generation, meaning the persons who were then living, that they should not die before these signs, etc., took place: but though this was true, as to the calamities that fell upon the Jews, and the destruction of their government, temple, etc., yet as our Lord mentions Jerusalem’s continuing to be under the power of the Gentiles till the fullness of the Gentiles should come in, i.e. till all the nations of the world should receive the Gospel of Christ, after which the Jews themselves should be converted unto God, Rom_11:25, etc.,


Geneva Bible:
Mat 24:34 - Verily I say unto you, This (t) generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

(t) This age: the word "generation" or "age" is here being used for the men of this age.


John Gill's:
Mat 24:34 - Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass,.... Not the generation of men in general; as if the sense was, that mankind should not cease, until the accomplishment of these things; nor the generation, or people of the Jews, who should continue to be a people, until all were fulfilled; nor the generation of Christians; as if the meaning was, that there should be always a set of Christians, or believers in Christ in the world, until all these events came to pass; but it respects that present age, or generation of men then living in it; and the sense is, that all the men of that age should not die, but some should live


Matthew Henry's:
Our Lord declares that the Jews should never cease to be a distinct people, until all things he had been predicting were fulfilled. His prophecy reaches to the day of final judgment; therefore he here, Mat_24:34, foretells that Judah shall never cease to exist as a distinct people, so long as this world shall endure. Men of the world scheme and plan for generation upon generation here, but they plan not with reference to the overwhelming, approaching, and most certain event of Christ's second coming, which shall do away every human scheme, and set aside for ever all that God forbids. That will be as surprising a day, as the deluge to the old world. Apply this, first, to temporal judgments, particularly that which was then hastening upon the nation and people of the Jews. Secondly, to the eternal judgment. Christ here shows the state of the old world when the deluge came. They were secure and careless; they knew not, until the flood came; and they believed not. Did we know aright that all earthly things must shortly pass away, we should not set our eyes and hearts so much upon them as we do. The evil day is not the further off for men's putting it far from them. What words can more strongly describe the suddenness of our Saviour's coming! Men will be at their respective businesses, and suddenly the Lord of glory will appear. Women will be in their house employments, but in that moment every other work will be laid aside, and every heart will turn inward and say, It is the Lord! Am I prepared to meet him? Can I stand before him? And what, in fact, is the day of judgment to the whole world, but the day of death to every one?



People's NT:

This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled. Some hold that "all these things," in Mat_24:33-34, refer only to what was said of the fall of Jerusalem, ending with Mat_24:28. Others have contended that the phrase includes the second coming, but refers directly to the end of Jerusalem, which was a type of the end of the world. I believe, rather, that "all these things" embraces all thus far predicted, and that "this generation" means the Jewish race, instead of only those then living. The Greek word so rendered is used in the sense of race in the Greek classics, and as examples of such use in the New Testament, Alford points to Mat_12:45, and Luk_16:8, as examples of such use in the New Testament. Christ has described the awful end of the Jewish state; after such a destruction and scattering of the remnant to the ends of the earth, all the examples of history would declare that the Jewish race would become extinct. Christ, however, declares that, contrary to all probability, it shall not pass away until he comes. They still exist, 1850 years after the prediction, distinct, but without a country.




Strong's Numbers for this word:

G1074
γενεά
genea
ghen-eh-ah'
From (a presumed derivative of) G1085; a generation; by implication an age (the period or the persons): - age, generation, nation, time.

G1085
γένος
genos
ghen'-os
From G1096; “kin” (abstractly or concretely, literally or figuratively, individually or collectively): - born, country (-man), diversity, generation, kind (-red), nation, offspring, stock.


G1096
γίνομαι
ginomai
ghin'-om-ahee
A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be (“gen” -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literally, figuratively, intensively, etc.): - arise be assembled, be (come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, be done, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.


p.s. E-Sword www.e-sword.net

[sbpma]

Again, I believe this is an area of lost meaning due to translation from the Greek text instead of Aramaic. Y'all seem to be focusing on a Greek word that Christ undoubtedly NEVER USED in said conversation.

Try this on for size and tell me if it makes much more sense.....

http://www.aramaicnt.org/HTML/MARK/evidences/Generation.html

[pilgrimian]

Hi, sbpma...we meet again.

Interesting site...and no, I don't think that really helped in my understanding of this Scripture. I think that makes it much more confusing than it actually is, quite honestly.

* * * * * * *
Crescendo,

The Parable of the Fig Tree doesn't look to 1948 or 1967 as starting points for the "generation." Let's look at the Scripture...

Luke 21

29 And he spake to them a parable: Behold the fig tree, and all the trees:
30 when they now shoot forth, ye see it and know of your own selves that the summer is now nigh.
31 Even so ye also, when ye see these things coming to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Which generation is that? That is the generation which sees the Abomination of Desolation. At that point it will be specifically 1260 days before Christ's Second Advent.

Matthew 24

32 Now from the fig tree learn her parable: when her branch is now become tender, and putteth forth its leaves, ye know that the summer is nigh;
33 even so ye also, when ye see all these things, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Therefore, the generation which sees the Abomination of Desolation will be the one that will witness His return...and the Messianic Kingdom.

Most undoubtedly, verse 34 is a word of comfort to the Jews living at this time, as there will be rampant anti-Semitism during the Tribulation. Satan's attempt, via the Antichrist, to destroy the Jews will, of course, fail.

God's blessings in our glorious Messiah,
Matthew

[sbpma]

pilgrim,
the debate rages whether this was talking about a group of people or a length of time. Reading this from Aramaic to English, eliminates the idea that time was the intent. So how in the world does the absence of one of the TWO choices make it more confusing?

The truth is quite the opposite. It makes it much more easily understood because the possibilities become less!!

[antsinmypants]

sbpma, I am also of the persuasion that there was a Hebrew text- and that there is still in existance an Aramaic text, but the L-rd used the Greek to get to the other Jews, Greeks and Gentiles in the dispersed lands. He wanted there to be a chance for the 10 tribes to return as well as ther to be a chance for the "Fullness of Gentiles". If he didn't wish this, there would never have been anything but the Hebrew and Aramaic.

The words in Greek have just as much signifigance as they do in Aramaic, and they do have just as much misunderstanding. I researched with what I had.. and at the moment, I don't have anything with Aramaic or Latin studies on the NT, just the OT.

I believe this website futher fuels the fire on the debate, but I do believe Strongs numbers helped sort that out.
The word used is in a certain context and it was used in the context that means family/race/group of people... rather than Generation.... though as some of the commmentaries I used did point out that "this generation" that Y'shua spoke to did see all of those things (destruction of the temple, Jeruselem- the dispersion and tribulations from the Romans) come to pass before they died.

But, as MANY MANY things in the Bible, there are double prophesies, and even TRIPLE prophesies, yet they're presented in one dispensational view, because the person seeing it didn't know how to describe it but in words they used.

Like the tribulations in Revelation, and the beasts - how they look. Obviously, we'd describe them a little bit different having seen machines and planes and helicopters etc.

It's like the mistranslation of the "white/pale horse" whereas the
Greek reads "Green"...... go figure-- that's why G-d wants us to be BEREANS-- people who search the scriptures to find the true meanings and contexts, to understand the languages and get a grasp on what He has to say to us.
G-d Bless;

Antsy

[pilgrimian]

Originally posted by sbpma
pilgrim,
the debate rages whether this was talking about a group of people or a length of time. Reading this from Aramaic to English, eliminates the idea that time was the intent. So how in the world does the absence of one of the TWO choices make it more confusing?

The truth is quite the opposite. It makes it much more easily understood because the possibilities become less!!

sbpma,

Well, it is important to note the He was speaking to Jews at the time. Looking at the context, it is obvious He's speaking about the generation who will see the Abomination of Desolation. Both Gentile and Jewish Believers will be there (as both come to Christ during the Tribulation). So if you want to call it the "Christian family," that's your deal. The fact that He is talking about the Fig Tree, and summer coming expresses time. So I don't see it as a huge debate.

God's blessings in our glorious Messiah,
Matthew

[Crescendo]

I sincerely appreciate all the input here. A lot of good information for me to digest and peruse as I continue to study the word. I'm truly grateful for the opinions and references.

[sbpma]

First, most appear to be in agreement (regardless of how we came to it), as to the intent referring to a group and not a length of time.

In hopes of supporting this even further let's see who Christ considered to be His family, shall we? And just maybe we will note exactly whose "DEAL" this is....

46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Now as to some comments that were made, I will have to get to them later, it seems that my wife is now home.....

[pilgrimian]

Sorry if the "deal" comment came across wrongly. However, the fact is that there will be much anti-Semitism during the Tribulation, and what He says certainly comes across as a comfort to them. Many of them will be Messianic Jews (and therefore part of the Christian family). So I don't believe there's a big "deal" to be had at all. I would be curious, however, to know how you read Matthew 25:31-46....but that would be a different thread, a different time.;)

God's blessings in our glorious Messiah,
Matthew

[7Rock]

If it means Christians or race, as in Jews, why would they pass away when these things come to pass?
I thought Christians and Jews would be around forever.
Generation makes more sense to me.

[antsinmypants]

7 Rock, it says :


31 Even so ye also, when ye see these things coming to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.


Read Revelation, once there's a Millenial reign etc-- eventually the world will pass away, there will be a Great White Throne Judgement... and eventually a new heaven and earth.

Ad-nai (Y'shua) said that these people - Jews & grafted in won't be done away with (there will be no racial barriers etc in His Body) until EVERYTHING has happened.

that's all. :)

[sbpma]

7 rock,
it does not say they will pass "away", it only says they will pass. That word has many different connatations.

AV-pass away 12, pass 10, pass by 3, pass over 1, transgress 1, past 1, go 1, come forth 1, come 1; 31

1) to go past, pass by
1a) of persons moving forward
1a1) to pass by
1b) of time
1b1) an act continuing for a time
1c) metaph.
1c1) to pass away, perish
1c2) to pass by (pass over), that is, to neglect, omit, (transgress)
1c3) to be led by, to be carried past, be averted
2) to come near, come forward, arrive

I believe those(shérvtha) who will come forth, move forward, leave, pass from this world to heaven, led away by Christ, arrive, etc.... is the group he had just been speaking of....

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven

[sbpma]

Antsinmypants,
the heavens and earth will be burnt up at the second coming, not eventually after the millennial reign.

You said;
"...the L-rd used the Greek to get to the other Jews, Greeks and Gentiles in the dispersed lands."

Please explain that comment and provide chapter and verse.

You also said;
"He wanted there to be a chance for the 10 tribes to return as well as ther to be a chance for the "Fullness of Gentiles"."

Please explain that comment as well, and give OT and NT chapter and verse for said fulfillment.

You also said;
""this generation" that Y'shua spoke to did see all of those things (destruction of the temple, Jeruselem- the dispersion and tribulations from the Romans) come to pass before they died."

Really? You believe they saw the worst tribulation that will EVER HAS BEEN and EVER WILL BE? So that means the worst is behind us, huh?

You also said;
"Obviously, we'd describe them a little bit different having seen machines and planes and helicopters etc."

What does planes, machines and helicopters have to do with with the description of the beasts in Revelation or anything in Revelation for that matter?
________
_________

Pilgrim,
you said;
"...the fact is that there will be much anti-Semitism during the Tribulation"

Really? Where can that "fact" be found?

[antsinmypants]

You know, I'm Not biting on that.

You can search, read and find for yourself, but I AM NEVER getting sucked in to a "chapter and verse" argument with anyone again.

I do not research or learn that way. I read, obsorbe and observe and comment. I do not keep such things as chapter and verse on my mind because I do have so many more tasks at hand to tend to that G-d has given me. YOU Research YOU find chapter and verse and YOU can get back to me.

:) otherwise, G-d bless. I'm not biting on this thread any longer. I answered the question and I think it suffices.

thanks.

[sbpma]

antsinmypants,
I have researched the Bible quite thoroughly and I know of NO chapter and verses that confirm your comments. If you don't care to share where your ideas come from, then I will half to assume they are purely your ideas and unBiblical. I thought we are here to discuss the Bible, not simply give unsubstaniated opinions. I'm willing to discuss and learn if there is something to it....so is there? Can you not show me?

[pilgrimian]

sbpma: Pilgrim,
you said;
"...the fact is that there will be much anti-Semitism during the Tribulation"

Really? Where can that "fact" be found?

Matthew 24

15 When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),
16 then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:
17 let him that is on the housetop not go down to take out things that are in his house:
18 and let him that is in the field not return back to take his cloak.
19 But woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days!
20 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on a sabbath:
21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is the Christ, or, Here; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
25 Behold, I have told you beforehand.
26 If therefore they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the wilderness; go not forth: Behold, he is in the inner chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west; so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
28 Wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

In this passage Christ gave a warning to those Jews living at the time when the covenant is broken between Israel and Antichrist, and the abomination of desolation occurs. They are warned that as soon as they hear of that event happening, they are to get out of Israel and do so quickly. Emphasis is on a speedy flight.

They are also urged to pray that when this event occurs, that it will not happen during winter (when the wadis would be filled), or on the Sabbath (when life is at a basic stand-still, because they are observant Jews).

The flight is because at this point, world-wide anti-Semitism breaks out. The world-wide persecution of the Jews begins and will continue for the next three and a half years (second half of the Trib).

Verses 23-28 are a special message directed to the believing remnant within Israel, warning them not to heed any rumor that the Messiah has returned and so come out of hiding. For when the Messiah does return, all will be able to see Him and it will be known by all. So while all Jews are persecuted, a special emphasis of deception is aimed against the believing remnant.

Another passage showing this flight is in Revelation 12:6...

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

As in the Matthew passage, the woman pictured here is in flight. In Matthew it was to the mountains, here it is to the wilderness, as well as one particular place in that wilderness that God prepared for her in advance (probably Bozrah in Jordan). In Revelation 12 we see why Satan hates Israel...through her came Christ. And he doesn't like the fact that Christ is going to return and set up His throne...Satan doesn't want the plan of redemption, and the setting up of the Messianic Kingdom to take place.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast down to the earth, he persecuted the woman that brought forth the man child.
14 And there were given to the woman the two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness unto her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, [3 1/2 years] from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth after the woman water as a river, that he might cause her to be carried away by the stream.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth and swallowed up the river which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon waxed wroth with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, that keep the commandments of God, and hold the testimony of Jesus:

How many Jews will die in the Tribulation? Unfortunately, there are said to be many by the Prophet Zechariah:

Zechariah 13

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith Jehovah, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part into the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people; and they shall say, Jehovah is my God.

In the Holocaust under Hitler one third of the world Jewish population died. Under the fierce persecution of the Antichrist, two thirds will die. This will be the most intense persecution of the Jews ever known in Jewish history.

God's blessings in our glorious Messiah,
Matthew

[antsinmypants]

Originally posted by sbpma
antsinmypants,
I have researched the Bible quite thoroughly and I know of NO chapter and verses that confirm your comments. If you don't care to share where your ideas come from, then I will half to assume they are purely your ideas and unBiblical. I thought we are here to discuss the Bible, not simply give unsubstaniated opinions. I'm willing to discuss and learn if there is something to it....so is there? Can you not show me?

no, you asked to spur on an argument, and I do not get into chapter/verse arguments with people.

I have alot of material, but no time to get into a discussion that will end up turning ugly at the end. I know how these kinds of discussions go, i've been in them enough in my life.

Keep looking and download E-sword, and all three literal translations, every commentary adn you'll find it.

[pilgrimian]

sbpma is so quiet...perhaps he left?:confused

[antsinmypants]

I dunno.. but I might just post my proofs here of what I said before.

I'll wait a few days and research... but again if he is lurking = KEEP LOOKING and you'll find.