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peace
May 1st, 2003, 02:34 AM
The people of God have winked at adultery and have accepted divorce as inevitable in these troubled times. God sees what we are afraid to even think or speak aloud. He sees the cancerous spreading of unfaithfulness, the breaking up of Christian homes, the lust for new mates, the break and sorrow that now plagues churches throughout the land.

When pastors become patsies about divorce, they open the floodgates of tidal wave of marriage break-ups. When there is no prophet of God in the pulpit to reveal God’s hatred of divorce to them, when no one tells them the truth about the horrible consequences of divorce and the judgment of God- it’s no wonder they split up so readily.

I believe in the grace of God, but I also believe in His government. The divorce can find forgiveness –that is beyond question. But who is standing up to tell them that God’s government must go on, and they must come under it? I know of few ministers who have preached a sermon on the judgmental consequences of divorce.

It was grace that clothed Adam; it was also government that drove him out of Eden. His coat of skin was evidence of grace; the flaming sword, the solemn fulfilment of government. Why did God drive a forgiven man out of the garden into a future of turmoil? Grace forgives; but the wheels of God’s government roll on in all their terrible consequences. Adam perfectly forgiven, but his sin produced its own terrible results. His guilt was removed, but not the sweat of his brow. He was pardoned, but he was sent to live among the thorns. Grace fully pardons, but what is sown must be reaped. Pardon doesn’t change the nature of the crop sown.

Moses spoke unadvisedly with his lips. God’s governmental decree prohibited his entrance into the Promised Land. God’s love and grace took him to Pisgah and tenderly buried him, but he never came into the fullness of Canaan.

David fell under the blinding power of lust. God’s grace declared to him, “The Lord has put away thy sin.” That was absolute grace; he was perfectly forgiven! But all the while, God’s wheel of government kept turning and all the sword of judgement was drawn. The baby died; Absalom rebelled; Amnon raped his (half-)sister Tamar; David was chased over the hills like a fugitive.

The manifestation of God in government is not being preached from many pulpits today. All we are hearing is God’s manifested in grace, love, and mercy. God is merciful and gracious, longsuffering and abundant in goodness, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin. But He also declared He will not overlook or clear the guilty, visiting the inequity of the fathers upon the children and upon the children’s children, unto the third and fourth generation (Exodus 34:6,7)……..

This is not a time of tolerance of sin and disobedience. It is a time to take a stand for the holiness and honour of Almighty God. I blame the pulpits for the lackadaisical attitude in the church about divorce. When writers of some of our most popular religious books leave their wives and remarry, without even an explanation, is it any wonder young Christians are weakened in their attitude about divorce and remarriage?

It should be enough for us that God says He hates divorce. Rather than build up walls of protection for marriage on the power of the holy Word, we spend our time looking for loopholes.

God has soundly rebuked me for preaching an all-too-condescending, forgiving message about divorce and remarriage. I felt the agony of all the innocent parties, the loneliness of those abandoned by adulterous mates, the isolation and guilt of those already divorced and remarried who still are deeply devoted to the Lord. But in preaching love, hope and forgiveness to them, many others who were plotting to leave their mates found solace and even encouragement. The thought emerged, “It may be wrong, but I’ll take the plunge then throw myself on the mercy of God. Others found grace- so will I.”

I don’t have all the answers, but I do know…. Those Christians who have been warned, those who reject outright God’s hatred toward divorce, those who build a case to justify their evil deeds- they will never again find a place of rest and peace
in the Lord. Their new marriage will bring them only more disaster and turmoil. The blessing of God will not return, and what they thought would be the answer to their needs will become a thorn to send a canker and rust to eat the life out of all that is abominable to Him.

My purpose in this book is not to berate those who are innocent victims of divorce, who are now remarried and seeking the Lord. Nor am I putting down ministers victimized by a hopeless situation. God knows how to protect, honour and make useful those who are innocent. God is very merciful to the repentant. My purpose, under God’s hand, is to put the fear of God into those who think they can walk out on their commitment and take up with someone else- without suffering the wrath of judgment of the holy God….. As He said to David, He is saying to us, “You did it in secret, but your judgment will be open to the eyes of the world.”

May God give us ministers of His Gospel who will quit trying to accommodate the weakness of God’s people and who will get to know God’s heart – until they are willing to stand in the gap and save the people from their sins.

God, put Your holy fear in us and give us a new reverence for your divine government and righteous judgment.
-----------------------------

From the book “Set the Trumpet to thy mouth – A prophetic call to repentance” by David Wilkerson.

dusty
May 1st, 2003, 09:52 AM
I believe this article has many errors.

There are natural consequences from any and all sin -- claiming that a saint receives judgment from God for sins negates the work of Christ on the cross, who, Himself, stood in the gap for us and took our rightful judgment for sins.

The wages of sin for man is death -- separation from God's Life. Those who come into judgment from God will be cast into the lake of fire. Those who are in Christ do not come into judgment from God because they have believed and received the work and Person of Christ.


:)

Sojourner
May 1st, 2003, 12:41 PM
Posted by peace
I don’t have all the answers, but I do know…. Those Christians who have been warned, those who reject outright God’s hatred toward divorce, those who build a case to justify their evil deeds- they will never again find a place of rest and peace in the Lord. Their new marriage will bring them only more disaster and turmoil. The blessing of God will not return, and what they thought would be the answer to their needs will become a thorn to send a canker and rust to eat the life out of all that is abominable to Him.
This paragraph really sums up the entire article. God cannot bless willful disobedience. Dusty, perhaps the word judgment should really be looked at as "chastening". God disciplines those who are His children. The consequences that result from disobedience may actually be the chastening of God.

The following passage is long, but I think applies well to this topic:

Hebrews 12:5-11
And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

"My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives."

If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

dusty
May 1st, 2003, 01:08 PM
My purpose, under God s hand, is to put the fear of God into those who think they can walk out on their commitment and take up with someone else- without suffering the wrath of judgment of the holy God

It seems to very clearly say the wrath of the judgment of God, not discipline...the wrath of God is not the same thing as discipline for the saints. :)

Joh 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

The wrath of God will be experienced by those who have not believed and received Christ's Life.



:)

Hyssop
May 1st, 2003, 01:11 PM
Someone? Where is it in the Bible- where it says something about if you don't discipline your child- then you hate him/her?..... (If I recall correctly...)

Anyway that would apply, God chastens because he loves us- even though he has already forgiven- there are still consequences to sin, right?

Hyssop <><

dusty
May 1st, 2003, 01:32 PM
Yes, as His children God disciplines us all...but discipline is not punishment (even though they can feel the same :lol) or the wrath of God. If Christ took our just punishment on the cross, what punishment/wrath is there left over for the saint? :) Punishment looks back and is simply just payment for a wrong committed, discipline looks forward and is training for the saint's future benefit.

But He also declared He will not overlook or clear the guilty
Christ's blood does clear the guilty for those who receive Him.

Not only would it negate Christ's precious blood, if saints have to endure the wrath of God for any sin, even one, we are all doomed -- eternally.


:)

Sojourner
May 1st, 2003, 02:02 PM
I'm not disagreeing that David Wilkerson should not have used the word "judgment" when refering to believers. I think the more appropriate word should have been "discipline". I thought that the article made some really good points:


"The people of God have winked at adultery and have accepted divorce as inevitable in these troubled times. God sees what we are afraid to even think or speak aloud. He sees the cancerous spreading of unfaithfulness, the breaking up of Christian homes, the lust for new mates, the break and sorrow that now plagues churches throughout the land."

"This is not a time of tolerance of sin and disobedience. It is a time to take a stand for the holiness and honour of Almighty God. I blame the pulpits for the lackadaisical attitude in the church about divorce. When writers of some of our most popular religious books leave their wives and remarry, without even an explanation, is it any wonder young Christians are weakened in their attitude about divorce and remarriage?"

"But in preaching love, hope and forgiveness to them, many others who were plotting to leave their mates found solace and even encouragement. The thought emerged, “It may be wrong, but I’ll take the plunge then throw myself on the mercy of God. Others found grace- so will I.”


I think that we need to remember that we serve a Holy God. He expects us to live holy lives. When a believer willfully disobeys God, then they must be aware that He will discipline them. He will chasten them because they are hindering Him, their behavior doesn't glorify Him, instead of being an example to others they are really causing others to fall (I'm thinking of divorce and adultry).

Just out of curiosity, what do you think of the story of Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5)? It seems as though they were judged for lying to God. Would you consider this a judgment of God? It seems to be a fairly harsh chastisement. Aren't there sins that lead to death?

1 Cor. 11:30-32
For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned in the world.

1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.

1 Cor. 5:5
Deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

dusty
May 1st, 2003, 02:44 PM
As was stated in my original post, the article's stance (taken at face value with the words the author chose to use) of saints being subject to the wrath of God is what was being addressed, not the validity of whether saints are disciplined. :) It's apples and oranges.

peace
May 2nd, 2003, 04:01 AM
We seem to have some problem with the word "judgment" itself?

When one reads 1 Peter 4:17 it states:

"For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?"

The verses in Hebrews 13:4, is more pertinent to this subject....

"Marriage should be honoured by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will JUDGE the adulterer and all the sexually immoral." This was specifically addressed to us believers.

dusty
May 2nd, 2003, 09:28 AM
There are different judgments. :)

How is the wrath of God connected with it, for saints, in light of the finality of the cross and the resurrection?

The wages of sin is death. Any sins. Judgment for any sins means a conviction of guilty for us, a conviction of guilty means there is a condemning, a condemning means death as the sentence.

If Christ took our punishment for sins, what punishment is left over for the saint? Do we fear we'll be subject to God's wrath and punished for our sins when Christ was already punished for them in our place? Or can we have confidence to place faith in His work on the cross and the Person of Christ, knowing that God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten...?

1 John 4;17-18
In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

Joh 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


:)

B A N E
May 2nd, 2003, 09:45 AM
they will never again find a place of rest and peace in the Lord.


That's quite a long time...