Im confused about the Trinity...and Jesus being GOD.

[4TheLight]

I found this http://www3.sympatico.ca/shabir.ally/new_page_45.htm (website) that talks about Jesus not being part of the Trinity. I have always been confused by the Trinity and when I read this webpage it totally makes sense that the Father and Jesus are 2 different beings, BUT the author makes refrences to the Qur’an and that has me worried about what im reading and agree'ing with it. :sigh Could you guys check it out with me and let me know what you think? Mabye somebody can examine this and explain the Trinity a little better to me. Thanks! ;)

[hopemail]

haven't got time to look up article, but on the issue of the Trinity, I've always viewed it this way,...
your wife has a big diamond on her finger, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are facets of that diamond, the diamond itself is G-D... all are part of the one...

[Hootmon]

Try reading John 1. :)

[carmen]

I've seen a couple illustrations on the Trinity that I think are helpful:

1) An egg - one egg, with a shell, a yolk, and the white.

2) Water - steam, ice, and liquid. All are water, but different forms.

I don't, however, have full understanding of the Trinity, nor do I expect to have that until I reach heaven :)

[4TheLight]

You can't really give advice unless you read the article :D

[dusty]

Hi 4TheLight, the link leads to an error page on this end...says no such site...?

Just in case no one can get to the site...It can be helpful to see a specific error in order to lend direction to particular scriptures on the subject, but it's not necessary to know or see error in order to present truth on a subject. :) (If the trinity is being denied, it's probably using age-old errors that are corrected by the same truths that have been around longer than the errors. :D)

[kublakahn]

Actually I think the water analogy is too close to modalism to be an apt analagy for the Trinity. Father, Son, and Spirit have always existed co-eternally and simultaneously, they do not switch from one form to the other as the water analagy would illustrate. I've always thought that the Trinity essentially is a mystery that is beyond our finite minds' ability to fully comprehend. All we can know is what scripture has told us; that God exists as three distinct persons and has existed as such for all eternity. I don't know if there is a human metaphor that can describe the Trinity. I just know that when I try to fully contemplate it, I am awe-struck at the majesty of our God.:D

[4TheLight]

try this

http://www3.sympatico.ca/shabir.ally/new_page_41.htm

Webpage (http://www3.sympatico.ca/shabir.ally/new_page_41.htm)

[Sparklecat]

*Quotes C.S. Lewis*

Mere Christianity, part of Chapter 2 of the Beyond Personality section:

"You know that in space you can move in three ways--to left or right, backwards or forwards, up or down. Every direction is either one of these three or a compromise between them. They are called the three Dimensions. Now notice this. If you are using only one dimension, you could draw only a straight line. If you are using two, you could draw a figure: say, a square. And a square is made up of four straight lines. Now a step further. If you have three dimensions, you can then build what we call a solid body: say, a cube--a thing like a dice or a lump of sugar. And a cube is made up of six squares.
Do you see the point? A world of one dimension would be a straight line. In a two-dimensional world, you still get straight lines, but many lines make one figure. In a three-dimensional world, you still get figures but many figures make one solid body. In other words, as you advance to more real and more complicated levels, you do not leave behind you the things you found on the simpler levels: you still have them, but combined in new ways--in ways you could not imagine if you knew only the simpler levels.
Now the Christian account of God involves just the same principle. The human level is a simple and rather empty level. On the human level one person is one being, and any two persons are two separate beings--just as, in two dimensions (say on a flat sheet of paper) one square is one figure, and any two squares are two separate figures. On the Divine level you still find personalities; but up there you find them combined in new ways which we, who do not live on that level, cannot imagine. In God's dimension, so to speak, you find a being who is three Persons while remaining one Being, just as a cube is six squares while remaining one cube. Of course we cannot fully conceive a Being like that: just as, if we were so made that we perceived only two dimensions in space we could never properly imagine a cube. But we can get a sort of faint notion of it. And when we do, we are then, for the first time in our lives, getting some positive idea, however faint, of something super-personal--something more than a person. It is something we could never have guessed, and yet, once we have been told, one almost feels one ought to have been able to guess it because it fits so well with all the things we know already."

There's more, but you'll have to buy the book :lol I'm done typing and I'm not actually sure what I'm thinking of isn't in a different book anyway... I'm going to look, so pm me if you want to know...

YSIC, Justine

[Sparklecat]

Of course Jesus wasn't omnipotent and omniscient on Earth... He took on a human body and the subsequent limitations... gave up His power in order to come redeem us and live as one of us... It would be a poor mockery of a human life if He never asked an honest question... and what sort of temptation would it be if He was not also fully human and capable of being tempted? Would the omnipotent God have needed an angel to strengthen Him before His crucifixion?

Fully God and fully man... and all that goes along with that...

[4TheLight]

Originally posted by Sparklecat
Of course Jesus wasn't omnipotent and omniscient on Earth... He took on a human body and the subsequent limitations... gave up His power in order to come redeem us and live as one of us... It would be a poor mockery of a human life if He never asked an honest question... and what sort of temptation would it be if He was not also fully human and capable of being tempted? Would the omnipotent God have needed an angel to strengthen Him before His crucifixion?

Fully God and fully man... and all that goes along with that...

it's not really that i have a problem vizualizing the trinity...it's more of after reading the webpage the guy makes perfect sense ... you would have to read the webpage lol to understand what im talking about . :lol

[4TheLight]

I think I found my answer in this post :

Originally posted by Mr. Berean


To anyone who has a sincere desire to search the Holy Scriptures... this is my awnser...

(John 1:1-3) "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made".

(John 1:14) "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth".

(John 1:18) "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him".

(Colossians 1:15-19) "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in Him all fullness should dwell".

(Isaiah 9:6) "For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace".

(1 John 5:7) "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one".

Here is one last thing I would like to share to all true searchers of the Holy Scriptures... In John 14:8-10, Philip said to Jesus, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficent for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

May God be with you all! The God that I speak of is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Exodus 3:14-15).

[hopemail]

read article, disagree with premise that G-D couldn't come to earth as Jesus, stand by my analogy... bye...

[4TheLight]

I think alot of the confusing stuff is why Jesus prays to the Father when he is the Father and the Holy Spirit lol...why would you pray to yourself? ME PUNY WITTLE MIND CANNOT COMPREHEND!!!

[4TheLight]

Originally posted by hopemail
read article, disagree with premise that G-D couldn't come to earth as Jesus, stand by my analogy... bye...

boy that really helps me. why be so rude about it? i did post it in bible study because im confused and was hoping somebody could help me and point me in the direction of some verses to explain it to me.

[dusty]

4TheLight,

There are many verses that attest to the deity of Christ. :) Salvation depends on it.

A board search will probably pull up lots of scriptures and input on the deity of Christ.

The above site denies that Jesus was God which is a typical mark of cultic teachings.

This may help get you started on a study of the deity of Christ...

From Torrey's Topical Textbook

Christ is god

As Jehovah
Isaiah 40:3; Matthew 3:3

As Jehovah of glory
Psalms 24:7,10; 1 Corinthians 2:8; James 2:1

As Jehovah, our RIGHTEOUSNESS
Jeremiah 23:5,6; 1 Corinthians 1:30

As Jehovah, above all
Psalms 97:9; John 3:31

As Jehovah, the First and the Last
Isaiah 44:6; Revelation 1:17; Isaiah 48:12-16; Revelation 22:13

As Jehovah s Fellow and Equal
Zechariah 13:7; Philippians 2:6

As Jehovah of Hosts
Isaiah 6:1-3; John 12:41; Isaiah 8:13,14; 1 Peter 2:8

As Jehovah, the Shepherd
Isaiah 40:11; Hebrews 13:20

As Jehovah, for whose glory all things were created
Proverbs 16:4; Colossians 1:16

As Jehovah, the Messenger of the covenant
Malachi 3:1; Mark 1:2; Luke 2:27

Invoked as Jehovah
Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21; 1 Corinthians 1:2

As the Eternal God and Creator
Psalms 102:24-27; Hebrews 1:8,10-12

As the mighty God
Isaiah 9:6

As the Great God and Saviour
Hosea 1:7; Titus 2:13

As God over all
Psalms 45:6,7; Romans 9:5

As the true God
Jeremiah 10:10; 1 John 5:20

As God the Word
John 1:1

As God, the judge
Ecclesiastes 12:14; 1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Corinthians 5:10; 2 Timothy 4:1

As Emmanuel
Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23

As King of kings and Lord of lords
Deuteronomy 10:17; Revelation 1:5; 17:14

As the Holy One
1 Samuel 2:2; Acts 3:14

As the Lord from heaven
1 Corinthians 15:47

As Lord of the Sabbath
Genesis 2:3; Matthew 12:8

As Lord of all
Acts 10:36; Romans 10:11-13

As Son of God
Matthew 26:63-67

As the Only-begotten Son of the Father
John 1:14,18; 3:16,18; 1 John 4:9

His blood is called the blood of God
Acts 20:28

As one with the Father
John 10:30,38; 12:45; 14:7-10; 17:10

As sending the Spirit, equally with the Father
John 14:16; 15:26

As entitled to equal honour with the Father
John 5:23

As Owner of all things, equally with the Father
John 16:15

As unrestricted by the law of the sabbath, equally with the Father
John 5:17

As the Source of grace, equally with the Father
1 Thessalonians 3:11; 2 Thessalonians 2:16,17

As unsearchable, equally with the Father
Proverbs 30:4; Matthew 11:27

As Creator of all things
Isaiah 40:28; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2

As Supporter and Preserver of all things
Nehemiah 9:6; Colossians 1:17; Hebrews 1:3

As possessed of the fulness of the God head
Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:3

As raising the dead
John 5:21; 6:40,54

As raising himself from the dead
John 2:19,21; 10:18

As Eternal
Isaiah 9:6; Micah 5:2; John 1:1; Colossians 1:17; Hebrews 1:8-10; Revelation 1:8

As Omnipresent
Matthew 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13

As Omnipotent
Psalms 45:3; Philippians 3:21; Revelation 1:8

As Omniscient
John 16:30; 21:17

As discerning the thoughts of the heart
1 Kings 8:39; Luke 5:22; Ezekiel 11:5; John 2:24,25; Revelation 2:23

As unchangeable
Malachi 3:6; Hebrews 1:12; 13:8

As having power to forgive sins
Colossians 3:13; Mark 2:7,10

As Giver of pastors to the Church
Jeremiah 3:15; Ephesians 4:11-13

As Husband of the Church
Isaiah 54:5; Ephesians 5:25-32; Isaiah 62:5; Revelation 21:2,9

As the object of divine worship
Acts 7:59; 2 Corinthians 12:8,9; Hebrews 1:6; Revelation 5:12

As the object of faith
Psalms 2:12; 1 Peter 2:6; Jeremiah 17:5,7; John 14:1

As God, he redeems and purifies the Church to himself
Revelation 5:9; Titus 2:14

As God, he presents the Church to himself
Ephesians 5:27; Jude 1:24,25

Saints live to him as God
Romans 6:11; Galatians 2:19; 2 Corinthians 5:15

Acknowledged by his Apostles
John 20:28

Acknowledged by the Old Testament saints
Genesis 17:1; 48:15,16; 32:24-30; Hosea 12:3-5; Judges 6:22-24; 13:21,22; Job 19:25-27


:)

[linuxpenguin]

Originally posted by carmen
I've seen a couple illustrations on the Trinity that I think are helpful:

1) An egg - one egg, with a shell, a yolk, and the white.

2) Water - steam, ice, and liquid. All are water, but different forms.

I don't, however, have full understanding of the Trinity, nor do I expect to have that until I reach heaven :)


I like #2. I hope you don't mind if I borrow that occasionally to help me explain this concept to people.

[skylark]

I like the analogy of space: height, width, and depth.

Height is not width or depth, yet all three make up space.

[4TheLight]

thanks Dusty! I knew there was something wrong with the webpage link (cult stuff) i was reading thats why I was asking for help :D it all makes perfect sense though when they leave out certain verses etc and mold it into what they want ...until you have the whole verse and the whole picture it doesnt become clear.

[dusty]

You're welcome, 4TheLight.

<<until you have the whole verse and the whole picture it doesnt become clear.>>

Exactly! :)

The mystery of Godliness...awesome...

1Ti 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


:)

[Mrs. Hoppes]

Shamrock

St Patricks Day is in memory of a missionary who was taken prisoner. When he escaped or was released or whatever, he went back to the country that took him prisoner to preach the gospel. He ran across this same question. He picked up a 3 leaf clover to use as a visual aide.

3 leaves yet 1 leaf, all connected. Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

And then St Patricks day came around and us Irish had to steal his thunder and throw in a few leprachauns. Myabe they got confused and ate the shamrocks? :lol

I have really got to stop posting when I'm tired.

[pilgrimian]

Hey there...

The author of that web site is clueless, and is obviously putting Scripture on par with the Koran. Hello? And he is quite selective about what Scriptures he uses...to say that Paul didn't believe Jesus was God...this is sadly amusing. It neglects the investigation that Paul wrote of doing in Galatians 2, and 1 Corinthians 15.

Furthermore, I couldn't find anything about who this fellow/lady is. Why should I grant him any where-with-all to make these statements if I can't find a bio? Hmmmm...

Check out this site:

JEWISHNESS AND THE TRINITY (http://www.messiahnj.org/af-tri-unity.htm)

Messiah, the God/Man (http://www.familyrestorationmagazine.org/tishrei/tishrei013.htm)

The Trinity (http://www.e-grace.net/trinity.html)

God's blessings in our glorious Messiah,
Matthew

[Welcome Back]

Please don't look to the Qua'ran (or people that use the Qua'ran) for answers about Jesus. It will only mess you up. :(

[Bone_Mender]

I read the website. While it appears to make perfect sense, this author is attacking the idea of Christ's deity with a "human" mindset. He seems to forget the principle of christianity lies in FAITH!!

It would have made little sense for Jesus to have come to Earth and been "completely" God. If He had, then how could we, as followers, aspire to be like Him??

By setting aside His deity, He allowed us to see how we should conduct ourselves. Through FAITH. Jesus did nothing without the Father. As such, we should do nothing without God as well.

Something that I completely disagree with about this article is the way the author presented Jesus. While He was completely human, he was also completely God. Think about His ministry and you will see it. He knew things that no human could know.

Mat 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

Luk 11:17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house [divided] against a house falleth.

This is not something a mere man can do. Who can read the minds of others??

Also:

Jhn 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

Jhn 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

Jhn 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

Jhn 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with [his] finger wrote on the ground, [as though he heard them not].

Jhn 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Jhn 8:8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

Jhn 8:9 And they which heard [it], being convicted by [their own] conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, [even] unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.


What do you suppose Jesus was writing here that CONVICTED these men? I think He was writing their PERSONAL sins down in the sand. If so, how would a mere man know them?

And finally:

Luk 2:45 And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.

Luk 2:46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.

Luk 2:47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.

Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

Luk 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

How does a 12 year old boy teach scholarly men as one with understanding? Jesus knew more than any of them because He was truly God. He could answer their questions as one with authority because He was God.


Hope this clears up some things....

Peace,
Bone

[antsinmypants]

www.triunegod.org

[DeeLeeKay]

This appears to be a Muslim recruiting site. I would leave it be completely. They are undermining the Diety of Christ.