The Restrainer

[Mercy4Me]

I am not sure where I should post this, so if it needs to be moved please do so.


I have always been taught that the Holy Spirit and the Church (us), are the restrainers, who will be taken out in the Pre-Trib Rapture, thus allowing the AC to come to power.

Now for my question, I was reading in another thread that some think the restrainer is Michael the Archangel. :confused

Could someone explain how they come to this way of thinking?

I have never heard of Michael being referred to as the Restrainer before.

[carmen]

I'm not too clear about the Michael thing, although I have heard that position before. I wanted to comment on the following, though (hope I'm not taking the thread off track!):Originally posted by Mercy4Me
I have always been taught that the Holy Spirit and the Church (us), are the restrainers...I believe the restrainer is the church, not the Holy Spirit. Since the Holy Spirit enters into believers at salvation, and we know that some will become believers after the Rapture, the Holy Spirit would still have to be present, it would seem to me.

[Mercy4Me]

I think that the Holy Spirit will be taken out in a "global" sense, but during the Trib He would indwell new believers individually, like He did in the OT.

[carmen]

Originally posted by Mercy4Me
I think that the Holy Spirit will be taken out in a "global" sense, but...indwell new believers individually... Hm. I guess I'm not clear on the difference between the two. The Holy Spirit is needed for conviction (that's one of His jobs, IIRC), before one becomes a believer...

Maybe other posters will shed more light on this; I really DIDN'T intend to drag this off topic, Mercy. Forgive me? :lol

[matheteou]

It is believed by many (myself included) that it is the Holy Spirit working thru the indwelt Church that is the restrainer. When the Church is removed, it is believed that the ministry of the Holy Spirit will return to that as we see in the Old Testament.

Many who try to refute the pre-trib position try to say we deny the omnipresent aspect of the Holy Spirit as God when we refer to the Holy Spirit being the restrainer and His 'influence' thru the Church stopping when the rapture occurs, when in fact that is not the case.

[Mercy4Me]

Originally posted by carmen
I really DIDN'T intend to drag this off topic, Mercy. Forgive me? :lol

Nothing to forgive. ;)

:lol Actually I guess it would be hard to seperate the two topics.

Since what you mentioned may be the reason some feel the restrainer is Michael.

[carmen]

Originally posted by matheteou
It is believed by many (myself included) that it is the Holy Spirit working thru the indwelt Church that is the restrainer. When the Church is removed, it is believed that the ministry of the Holy Spirit will return to that as we see in the Old Testament.I agree with the first sentence, but fail to see why that MUST lead to the second? (Not that you think if must, but I believe that is usually the position taken.) Just because the Holy Spirit's work through the church is....interupted, I guess you could say, through the Rapture, doen't mean that new believers can't come to Christ and reconstitute the Body here on earth. I hope that makes sense :D

[matheteou]

Carmen, I understand what you mean. What the thought is is the Church (which will be complete at the rapture) is the only body that is indwelt. In the OT God was with or came upon the faithful but, with very few exceptions, they were not indwelt as the Church is today.

There will be believers saved during the trib, but not in the same sense as we understand the Church.

[carmen]

Originally posted by matheteou
There will be believers saved during the trib, but not in the same sense as we understand the Church. Hm. Got a scrip on that? I'm not familiar with any.

[matheteou]

Originally posted by carmen
Hm. Got a scrip on that? I'm not familiar with any. Which part, the reverting back to the OT ministry or 'with or upon'?

edited to add:
Faith is the basis of all salvation!!

[carmen]

Originally posted by matheteou
There will be believers saved during the trib, but not in the same sense as we understand the Church. This part :)

[matheteou]

Maybe I didn't word it well. Faith is the basis of all salvation in both the OT and NT. What is different is that the Church is the only indwelt body (individually and corperately).

In the OT we find that the Spirit came upon 'believers' and left after the 'service/ministry' was completed. One of the few exceptions we see is in David's prayer in Ps 51 "... don't take your Holy Spirit from me ..." Why would he pray such a thing if 'believers' then were permanently indwelt then as we (the Church) are today? Because I believe he knew what happened to Saul as reported in 1 Sam 16:14But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and a distressing spirit from the Lord troubled him.Do you see the difference I'm talking about? What I see/understand in scripture, is when the Church is removed via the rapture, it's not that there won't be any more believers, it is that the 'new' believers during the trib will be along the lines of believers of the OT. The Church is something different (and limited in scope/content) and will be completed at the time of the rapture.

That make any sense?

[carmen]

I hear what you're saying, Matheteou :). And I'm not questioning the validity of your posts regarding the dealings of the Holy Spirit with OT believers (I agree with you, except perhaps for David--I don't think he was indwelt either--but that's for another thread :lol).

My question is, why apply this OT method to NT believers after the Rapture? What scripture says they will be dealt with in a different way after the Rapture than before?

[matheteou]

Ok, now I understand what you're getting at :cool

At salvation we are baptized into the Body of Christ (1 Cor 12:12, 13) correct? Is the Church also the Bride of Christ (2 Cor 11:2; Eph 5:25-27)? If the rapture is the gathering of the Church to Christ, is He receiving an incomplete Bride?

This is why I believe the ministry of the Holy Spirit changes, not the method of salvation which is by Faith alone.

[carmen]

Thanks, Mat...sorry it took me so long to get my thought out there :lol.

I see where you're coming from now. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I see it :lol

[matheteou]

Excellent dialog though, thanks.

[Sojourner]

Just so everyone knows which verses this thread is based on, I thought I would post them:

2 Thessalonians 2:5-8
Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

The restrainer must be either God himself, or the Holy Spirit. I believe that only the supernatural power of God could keep Satan from being revealed. God is holding Satan back, and only when God steps aside will Satan be able to proceed with his plan.

The Holy Spirit does not have to leave this world in order to take away His restraint from Satan. I don't think the AC is fully revealed until the middle of the tribulation. The church will be gone before that time. The Holy Spirit must still be available to believers during the tribulation. The question is whether or not He will come and go within believers like in the Old Testament, or permanently indwell them like the New Testament.

One thing I found interesting. In the New Testament the Holy Spirit "seals" believers. In Revelation there is reference made to God sealing believers (the 144,000 and those whom they convert) on the forehead (Rev. 7:3, and 9:4). Does this mean that the Holy Spirit is no longer sealing believers during the tribulation, but God is sealing them with a mark?

[joyttw]

I kind of like the idea of Michael as the restrainer. I think the reasoning is, Michael fights against Satan in both Daniel and Revelation (doesn't he argue with him in Jude, too?) and therefore, Michael could be the restrainer of evil until it's time for the man of lawlessness to let loose on the earth.

I remember a year or so ago, some posters made fun of me for thinking Michael could be the restrainer, but it still makes sense to me.

[cindyw]

<<<<<<One thing I found interesting. In the New Testament the Holy Spirit "seals" believers. In Revelation there is reference made to God sealing believers (the 144,000 and those whom they convert) on the forehead (Rev. 7:3, and 9:4). Does this mean that the Holy Spirit is no longer sealing believers during the tribulation, but God is sealing them with a mark?>>>>>

Eph. 1:13-14 says that believers will be SEALED with the Holy Spirit of promise. He is the downpayment of our inheritance. I don't see any reversion back to OT working of the Holy Spirit after the new covenant has been established. Jesus fulfilled all.


<<<<<At salvation we are baptized into the Body of Christ (1 Cor 12:12, 13) correct? Is the Church also the Bride of Christ (2 Cor 11:2; Eph 5:25-27)? >>>>>>

Scripture teaches that the Church and the Body of Christ are one and the same entity----see Eph. 1:22-23. Who is the Bride of Christ? Read Rev. 21:9-10..........Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:)

[Patty T]

I was reading this passage in scripture earlier today!!! 2 Thess 2:1-12

I know that in verse 7, the NKJV reads....

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.


Do the other versions capitalize the second "He"?


When reading this in context from the beginning I see Paul addressing the following:

1. Paul tells the believers not to be shaken in mind or troubled (either by spirit etc.) concerning the coming of Jesus AND our gathering together to Him - as though the day of Christ HAD come.

2. Paul tells them not to be deceived - for "that Day" will not come unless two things happen:

a) the falling away comest FIRST (the great Apostasy); and
b) the man of sin is revealed; the son of perdition.

Paul continues the conversation detailing what the man of sin does: opposes and exalts himself above all that is called Go or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Then Paul reminds them that he told them these things when he was with them earlier. The very next verse says (vs 6) And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.

I always thought the restrainer was the Holy Spirit, but I'm beginning to see it differently.

Need to pick up my son. Be back to finish.

Patty

[glorydays]

PattyT,

I think you highlight a good point -- the aposacy comes on account of the church ) "that which witholdeth" is removed and AC is revealed as a result of the Holy Spirit (capital "H") standing out of the way but still here.. Looks like a great parallel to me that I hadn't seen before. :D

[cindyw]

Originally posted by glorydays
PattyT,

I think you highlight a good point -- the aposacy comes on account of the church ) "that which witholdeth" is removed and AC is revealed as a result of the Holy Spirit (capital "H") standing out of the way but still here.. Looks like a great parallel to me that I hadn't seen before. :D


Glory, the problem is: this passage never even 'HINTS' that the Church is the restrainer or that the Church departs this earth thus causing this apostasy...............I believe that the 'apostasy' is a process, not an event. I think that verses 9-12 tell us who will apostacize----those who love not the Truth----those who HAD it, confessed it, yet in reality rejected it. Many seem to see mass conversions during the last days, I do not. Scripture indicates that lying signs and wonders will lead many astray. This passage also indicates that God will send strong delusions because the Truth was rejected. Going back to Daniel, 12:10 gives a picture of the end------saints enduring to the end and wicked continuing to do wickedly--Rev. 22:11, Rev. 14:12-13. This lines up perfectly with II Thess. 2.

Personally, I think there's merit in Michael possibly being the 'restrainer'. We see from Dan. 12:1 that he may be the one who "steps aside" for a short time and allows the saints to be 'overcome'----Dan. 7:25, until the purposes of God are fulfilled. Just my thoughts. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:)

[Bone_Mender]

2 Thessalonians 2:5-8
Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Jhn 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.


If the church is the BRIDE of Christ, then how can the church also be the HE that is mentioned in 2 Thessalonians?? A MALE BRIDE??
:confused

Also, are we absolutely sure that the church is the BRIDE??


Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Looks like New Jerusalem to me... :sigh

Even more confused now...

[Patty T]

Originally posted by Bone_Mender
[i]Also, are we absolutely sure that the church is the BRIDE??

[i]
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Looks like New Jerusalem to me... :sigh

Even more confused now...


Bone_Mender,

I'm thinking the description in Rev 21:2 talks about how "prepared" the holy city, new Jerusalem is - "as a bride adorned for her husband". - When the bride in the natural is prepared for her husband, it means she is ready, everything is in place and just right.

Adorned means.....

1. To make beautiful or attractive;
2. To put ornaments on; decorate

God said His church (the bride) will be a) without spot or b) wrinkle

a) if there's not spot, she's spotless (pure)
b) without wrinkle means smooth

If you really want revelation of this, look up "spot" and "wrinkle" in the dictionary!!!

Patty

[Bone_Mender]

I see...

Thanks for the info.

[JoeNC]

Posted a long time ago(maybe a previous version of this board):

2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Paul indicates that something he just related in the verses preceding verse 6 contains the identity of the restrainer. We do not need the rest of the chapter for "now" we know. What is it in the preceding verses that identifies the restrainer? Compare the sequence of verse 3 with that of 7-8:

Vs. 3 apostasy-> man of sin revealed
Vs. 7-8 restrainer taken away -> the wicked one revealed

Apostasy is the only thing discussed before verse 6 and therefore gives us enough information to identify the restrainer. The Church before the falling away will be a Spirit filled Church. Notice in the verses preceding verse 6 there is no mention of Michael, or Gabriel- just an institution that will fall away from the faith. Then Paul further explains that since first the apostasy must occur, so first the restrainer must be taken away to cause the apostasy:

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

I would argue that although the ac is being restrained indirectly, what is chiefly being restrained is the mystery of iniquity within the Church. Obviously no one does this but the Comforter who permanently indwells believers and gives them power to witness and convict- so its the believers who must be removed.

[Patty T]

JoeNC,

So are you thinking that Paul is referring to the church (bride of Christ) being the "restrainer" that's removed? I can't imagine God taking the Holy Spirit out; who will draw people to Jesus, comfort and convict those left behind?

Patty

[JoeNC]

I read vs. 3 as saying that when the apostasy occurs the man of sin will be revealed. So whatever is restraining the apostasy is the restrainer- IMO that is Spirit filled believers.

Actually it is the Holy Spirit that is the restrainer, but since He permanently indwells the believers that prevent the apostasy the believers must be removed.

The Holy Spirit is God and omniscient so He is not removed, that is why it is important to decide what is being restrained before identifying who is doing the restraining. IMHO Paul makes it clear that he identifies the restrainer and what is being restrained in the verses precdeding the phrase "and now you know".

[Hootmon]

I read vs. 3 as saying that when the apostasy occurs the man of sin will be revealed. So whatever is restraining the apostasy is the restrainer- IMO that is Spirit filled believers.
That seems to make sense.

[Patty T]

Originally posted by JoeNC
I read vs. 3 as saying that when the apostasy occurs the man of sin will be revealed. So whatever is restraining the apostasy is the restrainer- IMO that is Spirit filled believers.

Actually it is the Holy Spirit that is the restrainer, but since He permanently indwells the believers that prevent the apostasy the believers must be removed.

The Holy Spirit is God and omniscient so He is not removed, that is why it is important to decide what is being restrained before identifying who is doing the restraining. IMHO Paul makes it clear that he identifies the restrainer and what is being restrained in the verses precdeding the phrase "and now you know".

Yes, this does seem to make sense. The only thing i disagree with (if I'm reading you correctly) is that I believe the apostasy (the falling away of the faith) is already here and happening now.

Patty

[cindyw]

ok, I just had this thought. What if the restrainer WAS the Church..........and because of the Church becoming APOSTATE it's restraining influence was null and void (the Church as a whole becoming INEFFECTIVE)------thus allowing for the anti-christ to come forth?


In other words, it is APOSTASY which brings forth the anti-christ. The continually weakening state of the Church allows for more and more darkness to come into the World. The state of the Church is exactly that now-----INEFFECTIVE for the most part. There are 'pockets' of truly living for/dying for Christ Christians, but most Western Christians are very much like "Laodicea". We say we are sold out to Jesus, but by our lives we show the world a Christ that is not able to conquer the flesh..........our witness is dwindling............off my podium now
:D Anyways, that's just my ponderings.......Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:)

[Sojourner]

"Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition..." v. 3

Does anyone think that the falling away might refer to the time when the AC goes into the Temple and declares himself to be god? The "abomination of desolation" is also an apostasy and when it occurs the man of sin will be revealed. It is at that time that the AC is revealed and the Day of the Lord will come (the final 3 1/2 years). The falling away could mean the act of the AC turning against all religion (v. 4, "who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.").

Another things about the one who restrains. I still think that it must be the Holy Spirit himself, not the church nor believers, because the verse specifially indicates something singular. "...only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way."

[cindyw]

<<<<<I still think that it must be the Holy Spirit himself, not the church nor believers, because the verse specifially indicates something singular. "...only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.">>>>>>


Could be, Sojourner. I dont' however, believe the Holy Spirit will "depart"----I believe whoever is the 'restrainer' moves out of the way, moves out from the middle. We are told in the next verses what will happen----God sends delusions because people loved not the Truth------the Truth was allowed to go forth, now it will not...........The restrainer seems to be the one who was holding back evil-----allowing the propigation of the gospel......now evil is not held back, but many will not see this----only those who "love the Truth" will know what's happening. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy

[pilgrimian]

What about the third king? I would say he would be the restrainer...because it isn't until he is killed that Antichrist will be the "eighth horn."

Daniel 7:

8 "While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts.

Godspeed,
Matthew

[Xlcor]

If any of you are handball/squash racquets/racquetball players, you know what a "let" is. A "let" is when one player hinders the other from a clear view of the ball, or the ability to have an unobstructed swing at the ball, and a "let" is called, and the point is re-played.

So, in this verse in 2 Thess., the word let means to hinder the view or conceal the identity of "that man of sin", the "son of perdition".

I believe that the "hinderer" is Michael, the Archangel based on Daniel 10:13, 21.

[kevandrew]

Michael is Israels guardian angel and gods chief angel

[glorydays]

joe,

I agree with what you said totally -- but that bring back into play the idea that these happen before the rapture. The argument has alway been was Paul saying that these 2 things were not present therefore you are not in the trib? or was he saying that the trib can't come until these to things happen? Do you see the propblem for pre vs post?

I agree with your perspective which absolutely says that we won't be in the trib until the apostacy in the church is achieved by the absence of true believers and then the Pope of Thyatira can fashion the church to his own design (Rev 17:16). 2 Thes 2:6-7 confirms this interpretation vs the other.

Sojourner that AoD is too late for the revelatin of the man of sin IMO. Rev 17 tells us that John goes to the wilderness to see the harlot on the beast -- not to the temple. I believe the harlot does not ride AC except before the trib. Once the trib opens, it is AC that rides the white horse of false Christianity! Therefore, I believe we have seen the AC in the wilderness of Korazim in May 2001! He is the "Judas" who comes out of the high priest's palace (a type of the trib) and invites a Peter who has followed the "wrong crowd" (the crowd that was taking Jesus to His death, not ready to crown Him) into the palace in John 18 where he is sifted 3 times.

cindy Only problem with that explanation of the true church being weak is that it has always been weak minority. The only time you can even find a powerful church is when it was "run amuck" with false doctrine mixed with political power -- the so called Holy Roman Empire!

[pilgrimian]

Yeah, so the restrainer is the third king...

!

[Beth]

Originally posted by kevandrew
Michael is Israels guardian angel and gods chief angel

That has been my understanding as well. Michael always seems linked in Scripture with Israel as you see in Daniel:

Daniel 10:13 'But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.'

Daniel 10: 21 'But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.'

Daniel 12: 1 'And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.'


and when Jude mentions him disputing with the devil over Moses' body...

Jude 1:9 'Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.'

and in Revelation 12 where the description is of Israel coming under persecution and fleeing into the desert..

Rev 12:7-8 'And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

I see the Restrainer as the indwelt church. In order to remove that Restrainer and allow the flood of sin and apostasy, and the revealing of the man of sin, the indwelt church will have to be removed (aka rapture). The church could not simply be left without the indwelling Spirit, for Christ promised us His spirit would remain with us.

[kevandrew]

im not sure who the restainer is .. it could be michael.. i dont know... but heres the verse that i found out michael is israels guardian angel.

daniel 10:20 - He said, "Do you know why I came to you? It is to reveal to you what is written in the Book of Truth. Now I have to go back and fight the guardian angel of Persia. After that the guardian angel of Greece will appear. There is no one to help me except Michael, Israel's guardian angel.


peace