Question about Pentecost

[skylark]

Why was it necessary for Jesus to ascend to heaven before the outpouring of the Holy Spirit?

[paw]

Originally posted by skylark
Why was it necessary for Jesus to ascend to heaven before the outpouring of the Holy Spirit?

Without Jesus departing which includes his death, burial, resurrection, and ascention there would be no gospel. The Holy Spirit's ministry was to convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgement.
The presence of the Holy Spirit convicts the world of the sin of failing to believe in Christ. The Holy Spirit's presence in the world is a witness to that sin. If Christ had not been rejected then He would still be present fulfilling His role as Messiah.

The Spirit's is also refered to as the comforter. The comforter to those who believe. He gives to the believer fruits as written in Galations 5:22. love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

That's how I understand your question.

Pat

[skylark]

Thanks paw.

I think I am still missing something that is very basic.

But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. Hebrews 9:11-12

It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us. Hebrews 9:23-24

Hebrews 9 speaks of Christ entering the Holy of Holies in heaven to apply the sacrifice of himself. It compares this to the high priest entering the Holy of Holies each year to apply the blood of the sacrifice for atonement.

My question is, when did Jesus do this? Was it when he ascended into heaven forty days after his resurrection? Or was it on the day of the resurrection between the time he appeared to Mary in the morning, and the time that he appeared to the disciples in the evening??

Why did Jesus ask Mary not to touch him as he had not yet ascended, but he invited Thomas to touch his palms?

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. John 20:17

Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. John 20:27

It sounds to me like he ascended on the day of the resurrection. If so, I still wonder why the Holy Spirit come not come until after he ascended forty days later. What am I missing?

[paw]

Skylark,

I have this notion that you know the answer to your question and are seeking a discussion about it.

On the issue of why did Jesus tell Mary "touch me not" refers to a new relationship. Jesus certainly wasn't untouchable. Mary lost Him once because of the crucifixion and didn't want to lose Him again. Jesus said in effect "this physical contact is not my real presence. A new relationship will begin with my ascention and the gift of the Holy Spirit to the church.
That new relationship is the exciting part. Before his death and resurection he called his disciples his friends. After his resurection he called his disciples (Christ followers) his brothers. We, as believers, became part of his family.

As to when did he ascend to heaven, I see it happening 40 days after his resurrection. Sometimes I have trouble reading into passages something that isn't there. The scriptures don't say that he went up, came back and went up again.

What say you?

[skylark]

I have this notion that you know the answer to your question and are seeking a discussion about it.

Nope. Maybe I should know the answer, but it was a genuine question.

Sometimes we carry an incorrect belief around for so long that it is difficult to recognize as incorrect. I believed that between morning and evening of the resurrection day that Jesus ascended to Holy of Holies in heaven to apply the sacrifice of himself. But, your explanation of what Jesus actually meant when he told Mary not to touch him helps a great deal. I knew that something was not right with this belief, that's why I decided to ask the question here. The idea of ascending twice never did make sense.

So, thank you very much. I think that I finally get it! :)
(I just hope that this wasn't a really stupid question.)

I just came across an article "Finding Fulfillment in the Father," by Jon Courson, that goes right along with your explanation. Here is a quote from it:

`Don't cling to Me, Mary,' was Jesus' response, `because I have not yet ascended.' At first reading, this sounds harsh. Yet there's an important lesson here, for Jesus is saying, `Mary, My mission was to come to earth to die for your sins. The purpose of My coming was to provide reconciliation so that you and all who believe could be reconciled to the Father and have relationship with Him . Don't cling to Me.'

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/jon_courson/Jhn/Jhn020top_v17.html

[KevCornette]

Originally posted by skylark

Why did Jesus ask Mary not to touch him as he had not yet ascended, but he invited Thomas to touch his palms?

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. John 20:17

Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. John 20:27

It sounds to me like he ascended on the day of the resurrection. If so, I still wonder why the Holy Spirit come not come until after he ascended forty days later. What am I missing?

Everything that Jesus did, regarding atonement and the payment for our sins, had been typified in the sacrifices of the Mosaic covenant. "Handle me not" is the EXACT thing the High Priest would say on his way to ascend into the Holiest of All on the Day of Atonement. During the sacrifice of the goat that was "for the LORD", the blood of the goat would be placed into a Mizrak (a funnel shaped cup that had a wooden handle and a pointed bottom - so that the mizrak couldn't be put down while the blood was in it). As soon as the blood was caught in the Mizrak, the Kohen HaGaddol (High Priest) would cry out "do not touch me' -- which may defile him on his way to sprinkle the blood.

As for Thomas. Jesus didnt appear to Thomas until days later, after the atonement was finished.

[paw]

Originally posted by KevCornette


Everything that Jesus did, regarding atonement and the payment for our sins, had been typified in the sacrifices of the Mosaic covenant. "Handle me not" is the EXACT thing the High Priest would say on his way to ascend into the Holiest of All on the Day of Atonement. During the sacrifice of the goat that was "for the LORD", the blood of the goat would be placed into a Mizrak (a funnel shaped cup that had a wooden handle and a pointed bottom - so that the mizrak couldn't be put down while the blood was in it). As soon as the blood was caught in the Mizrak, the Kohen HaGaddol (High Priest) would cry out "do not touch me' -- which may defile him on his way to sprinkle the blood.

As for Thomas. Jesus didnt appear to Thomas until days later, after the atonement was finished.

Greetings Kevin,

That's interesting, where can I find this ceremony that you described?

[KevCornette]

Originally posted by paw


Greetings Kevin,

That's interesting, where can I find this ceremony that you described?

The Mishnah contains most of it, the rest is in the Soncino Talmud.

Hope that helps
Kev