scripture and polygamy

[joint heir]

In Christian chat there was a discussion comparing various sexual and marriage sins...we thought that a good search into scripture to find out what God says about polygamy through the Bible would be appropriate...

I am starting from a non position on this....I always assumed it was a sin but never had any cause to really see what scripture teaches....so I am at the starting point....


Here is some basic info to start on....

polygamy is when a man marries multiple women (not when women marry multiple men...I believe that is called polyandry)



I will start with offering up Adam and Eve and God's original design...

one man one woman and it was considered good.....there was no other woman in the garden .
both Adam and Eve were made in God's image and in marriage they become one flesh..Genesis cps 1 and 2
..so we can assume that God intended Adam to have only one wife..

but of course many things changed after the fall...

[Hyssop]

And after the fall, man was able to become one flesh with more than one woman? I'm headed out the door in 5, will provide scripture references later.

I think a man married to more than one woman is actually called polygny(sp?)

[Stephanie]

Hello! I'm joining in the discussion--- but I'm in the midst of rewriting part of a chapter draft for my book so I can't get in depth here yet--- but I'll be popping in now and again with thoughts. Anxious to see how things get started!

First thoughts: I believe that, at least in OT times, God was in favor (or at least not directly against) polygamy, based upon the various patriarchs. I see absolutely no evidence that polygyny would be Biblical, however.

I also think that, considering the fact that the Church is the Bride and Jesus is the "husband"--- there is an undertone there which seems to point toward OT multiple marriages, in a metaphorical sense. Consider the fact that we are One Body with Christ--- yet the Bride is made up of many believers (many "wives" so to speak)... and the fact that Jesus loves us all equally and we are all one with Him.

It's interesting to consider.

[Jael]

This is a curious question...

Three times the Bible lays out the basic design for marriage as being a man and his wife, joined as one flesh...

Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

But the Lord did not see fit to forbid polygamy, even when He was giving the laws of marriage...

Lev 18:18 Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex [her], to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life [time].

It seems like this would have been the perfect opportunity for God to say, "And while I'm at it, you should only be taking one wife anyway." But He didn't...

Yet when I read direct instructions regarding marriage, I don't see any affirmative recognition that it is okay to take more than one wife either...for example when the Lord gave instructions for the marriage of Levites, He said:

Lev 21:13 And he shall take a wife in her virginity.

Lev 21:14 A widow, or a divorced woman, or profane, [or] an harlot, these shall he not take: but he shall take a virgin of his own people to wife.


It sounds as if the Lord intended the Levites to have one wife, not many...I can't find anywhere where the Lord directly acknowledged the practice of polygamy in a positive way, when He touched on it, it seems that He was limiting it ("no marrying sisters together"), or discouraging it ("do not multiply wives to yourself")...yet He did not forbid it.

When Jesus was discussing marriage and divorce, He always described the second marriage after a divorce as adultery - He never discussed marrying another while still married to the first.

And then the standard for leadership in the NT requires that a man should be the husband of one wife...yet this instruction was given to those who aspired to be leaders...if NO ONE was supposed to have more than one wife, would there be a need to specify it? Of course, all of the qualifications given for a bishop are applicable to other believers - for example, none of us should be brawlers, or greedy for filthy lucre, or given to drinking in excess. So if the qualifications given for bishops represent God's standard for a holy and upright man under the new covenant, perhaps we can infer that being the "husband of one wife" applies to all men, and especially to those who are leaders.

Edit to add: There is also this verse in the NT, which strongly suggests a one-to-one relationship between wives and husbands...one man, one wife, one woman, one husband...

1Cr 7:2 Nevertheless, [to avoid] fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

Perhaps polygamy was one of those things that God "winked at" in the OT days, but now He wants us to live up to His original design for marriage.

[BereanSalmon]

From the other thread:

What is your opinion of the references in Ezekial 23 about God speaking of his two "wives" who were adultresses against their husband (in this case God Himself.) I know they were not actual women, but why I wonder would God describe himself as a polygamist- if it was a sin? Does God do that anywhere else Biblically? God cannot sin can He?

Hmm...God does famously describe himself as coming like a "thief."

It may be that polygamy is not a sin, but not the most acceptable practice, either. The Bible does indicate that there can be things "more acceptable" than others, without meaning that the "other" choice is an outright sin. For instance:

Pro 21:3 To do justice and judgment [is] more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

[joint heir]

Originally posted by Hyssop
And after the fall, man was able to become one flesh with more than one woman? I'm headed out the door in 5, will provide scripture references later.

I think a man married to more than one woman is actually called polygny(sp?)

I think I read that somewhere....Hyssop that polygny is the actual term...but for clarity sake I say for this discussion we use polygamy so that any lurkers know what we are talking about...

so just a hypothetical....if husband and wife are one flesh.....would it be possible for a man to become one flesh with another woman without in a sense carrying over his one flesh from his first wife?.....essentially it would seem as if the first wife would then be one flesh with subsequent wives and they with her..

does that make sense?


Stephanie..you brought up the patriarchs....many of whom had multiple wives...what we should probably determine is...if these men were either blessed for their additional wives by God or at the very least were neither blessed or punished...


and is it possible that God is not against something in the OT yet against in the NT....would that mean that God's beliefs on wrong and right have changed?



Jael:

You are right that God did not forbid polygamy in the law...but He also did not forbid divorce.....because of hardened hearts....Is it possible that polygamy is similar....allowed because of hard hearts..

the patriarchs also had concubines....I think we all agree that this was wrong and certainly nothing that is allowed today...


Jesus's reason for now divorce in the NT goes back to Adam and Eve and the one flesh idea...and he does stress one wife not wives

[Jael]

Originally posted by joint heir
I think I read that somewhere....Hyssop that polygny is the actual term...but for clarity sake I say for this discussion we use polygamy so that any lurkers know what we are talking about...

so just a hypothetical....if husband and wife are one flesh.....would it be possible for a man to become one flesh with another woman without in a sense carrying over his one flesh from his first wife?.....essentially it would seem as if the first wife would then be one flesh with subsequent wives and they with her..

does that make sense?


Stephanie..you brought up the patriarchs....many of whom had multiple wives...what we should probably determine is...if these men were either blessed for their additional wives by God or at the very least were neither blessed or punished...


and is it possible that God is not against something in the OT yet against in the NT....would that mean that God's beliefs on wrong and right have changed?



Jael:

You are right that God did not forbid polygamy in the law...but He also did not forbid divorce.....because of hardened hearts....Is it possible that polygamy is similar....allowed because of hard hearts..

the patriarchs also had concubines....I think we all agree that this was wrong and certainly nothing that is allowed today...


Jesus's reason for now divorce in the NT goes back to Adam and Eve and the one flesh idea...and he does stress one wife not wives

I agree, that's why I think He brought us back to his original design in the NT...now we are Spirit-led and not just following ordinances, but walking in the Spirit and letting the righteousness of God be fulfilled in us. And even in the OT, as I said, He never really APPROVED the practice, just sort of tolerated it...

[Sojourner]

Good thread, Joint heir. I'm looking forward to reading (possibly contributing to) the discussion. Just for the everyone's information, I found a list of Biblical polygamists online:

Biblical Polygamists

1. Lamech, who was Cain’s great-great-great grandson, was the first man recorded to have two wives (Adah, Zillah) (Gen. 4:19).

2. Abraham had three wives (Sarah, Hagar, and Keturah) (Gen. 23:19; 25:1; 16:3).

3. Esau had three wives (Judith, Bashemath, and Mahalath) (Gen. 26:34; 28:9).

4. Jacob had four wives (Leah, Rachel, Bilhah, and Zilpah) (Gen. 29:15-35; 30:4, 9).

5. Moses had two wives (Zipporah and the Ethiopian woman) (Ex. 18:2; Num. 12:1).

6. Gideon had many wives and 70 sons (Judges 8:30).

7. Samuel’s father, Elkanah, had two wives (Hannah, Peninnah) (1 Sam. 1:1, 2).

8. King Saul had at least two wives (Ahinoam, Rizpah) (1 Sam. 14:50; 2 Sam. 3:7).

9. David had at least eight wives (Michal, Abigail, Ahinoam, Bathsheba, Maacah, Haggith, Abital, and Eglah) plus Saul’s wives (2 Sam. 12:8).

10. Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines (1 Kings 11:3).

11. King Ahab had more than one wife (1 Kings 20:7).

12. King Rehoboam had 18 wives and 60 concubines (2 Chron. 11:21).

13. King Abijah who ruled over Judah had 14 wives (2 Chron. 13:21).

14. King Joash had two wives (2 Chron. 24:1-3).

15. King Ahasuerus had a harem. Two wives are mentioned by name: Vashti and Esther (Esther 1:10-12; 2:1-17).


Just for Laughs:

Once when Mark Twain was lecturing in Utah, a Mormon acquaintance argued with him on the subject of polygamy. After a long and rather heated debate, the Mormon finally said, “Can you find for me a single passage of Scripture which forbids polygamy?” “Certainly,” replied Twain. “‘No man can serve two masters.’”
:D

[joint heir]

So was it a sin...?.....and in that vein was divorce a sin?

was God allowing sin ...or allowing polygamy and divorce to not be a sin?


Soujourer..

was Hagar a wife?...if so why did God allow her to be sent out in the desert?..I thought that was adulterous...

as a result of this thread I found an interesting article that speaks to consequences for multiple wives....I have not had a chance to go through it yet but I will post the link and we can see if God punished for multiple wives as this author argues..

disclaimer..I have only skimmed this article and his views are not neccessarily my own:)

I 'll post back with the link I seem to have misplaced it:b


edit to add link:

http://www.giveshare.org/family/polygamy.html

[Hyssop]

I loved the Mark Twain quote!!!!:lol :rofl

As to the "I come LIKE a thief" remark, yeah- but he didn't say "I am a theif" I am a murderer, I am a sodomizer ect..Way different.

Everyone has such great points! Wow. Where's Matthew??

No time right now to concentrate:( And out of town Friday probably, dang!

Anyway- I'll check back before bedtime. Note: It is sure tough to keep ones own pre-conceived or own personal feelings out of this study isn't it?

[joint heir]

Originally posted by Hyssop

Anyway- I'll check back before bedtime. Note: It is sure tough to keep ones own pre-conceived or own personal feelings out of this study isn't it? [/B]

I thought we were doing pretty well....so far everything has been backed by scripture...do you see something that we don't see?

[BereanSalmon]

As to the "I come LIKE a thief" remark, yeah- but he didn't say "I am a theif" I am a murderer, I am a sodomizer ect..Way different.

The thief passage is a simile, and the polygomy passage is a metaphor. God is saying that it is as though he has two wives, not that he actually has two women named Jerusalem and Samaria who go to bed with him. Both passages are analogies.

Interesting article, joint heir. The author points out that polygamy is forbidden--at least for the king--once the Hebrews get to Israel, which lends strength to the argument that perhaps it was only acceptable for a certain time:

"When thou art come unto the land which the Eternal thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me. . . . Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away" (Deut. 17:14, 17).

[Hyssop]

Yes, I see my own jealous- prideful- selfish nature!!! :evil ;)
(JK)
Actually it is difficult, maybe only for me? To look past my own pre-concieved ideas/society/teachings- to see the big (God) picture sometimes....That's all. Matthew has a great grasp on OT/NT where is he tonight I wonder? Love to hear his take...

Berean, see? See, I'm no scholar or theologin :rolleyes and I obviously cannot spell or punctuate very well to boot! (blush)

The Deut. multiply wives to thyself was in reference to? And would that be like as in a type of gluttony?? Solomon and his pastures full of wives- & concubines perhaps?

Hmmmm, all very good points everyone- I've wondered about these things for awhile. Sin or non sin?

[joint heir]

Hyssop it is very common to see truth only from one's own perspective...it is one of the biggest stumbling blocks to finding real truth..

but I have found that until one can admit that they(as everyone else) sees truth through their own lenses they will never know for sure that they are in truth.....

it is a leap of faith sometimes to follow the Holy Spirit and we have to be open to where ever truth takes us..until we are open..we are locked into our own view..right or wrong...

I agree with you that it is difficult:)

I would also be interested in Matthew's views...

[Hyssop]

Looking forward to seeing if there will be any more interest on this thread- I won't be around till' Sat.

In His Love, Hyssop <><

[Hootmon]

... it is very common to see truth only from one's own perspective...it is one of the biggest stumbling blocks to finding real truth..
You need to go post that over in Appologetics. :)

[BereanSalmon]

Berean, see? See, I'm no scholar or theologin and I obviously cannot spell or punctuate very well to boot! (blush)

Luckily, I belong to a church that believes in the priesthood of the believer, so we don't have to be theologians to interpret the Bible!

The Deut. multiply wives to thyself was in reference to? And would that be like as in a type of gluttony?? Solomon and his pastures full of wives- & concubines perhaps?

I looked at a commentary on Deuteronomy 17 which also mentioned Solomon as one who did not follow this verse, to his detriment:

1Ki 11:1 But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, [and] Hittites;

1Ki 11:2 Of the nations [concerning] which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: [for] surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.

1Ki 11:3 And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.

1Ki 11:4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, [that] his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as [was] the heart of David his father.

[pilgrimian]

This is an interesting thread. I haven't really spent a lot of time thinking about polygamy, quite honestly. I never considered it particularly sinful...and ranked it up with the fact that Israel was a growing nation, and that having multiple wives is one way to grow the nation. This is totally from the cuff, though. Hmmmmmm...was it sinful?

I read somewhere that although polygamy was kind of the matrimonial standard of those times, that rabbis later believed that Solomon's son (Rehoboam) was proof of punishment by God because he violated the monogomous relationship. I'll have to find where that is...it's not in the Scriptures.

I agree, that's why I think He brought us back to his original design in the NT...now we are Spirit-led and not just following ordinances, but walking in the Spirit and letting the righteousness of God be fulfilled in us. And even in the OT, as I said, He never really APPROVED the practice, just sort of tolerated it...

Hmmmmm...kind of like Deborah? He didn't approve, but tolerated her as a Judge.:b

That's an interesting link you gave earlier, Shelley...the name of the author made my eyes bug out, though. Herbert Armstrong...do you know about him?

This is off-topic, but it is good to know about the individual one is reading:

"The Plain Truth" (http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~gavinru/herb1.htm)

More later -- Godspeed,
Matthew

[joint heir]

Originally posted by pilgrimian
This is an interesting thread. I haven't really spent a lot of time thinking about polygamy, quite honestly. I never considered it particularly sinful...and ranked it up with the fact that Israel was a growing nation, and that having multiple wives is one way to grow the nation. This is totally from the cuff, though. Hmmmmmm...was it sinful?

How is having multiple wives going to grow the nation unless there is a huge abudance of women compared to the number of men...was this the case?






Hmmmmm...kind of like Deborah? He didn't approve, but tolerated her as a Judge.:b

nice try ...you could only make that comparison if God appointed a second or third wife:b..but let's not go there:)

That's an interesting link you gave earlier, Shelley...the name of the author made my eyes bug out, though. Herbert Armstrong...do you know about him?

Never heard of him...that is why I gave the disclaimer that he does not represent my view (especially since mine is still unestablished)....in this article though I did not see anything alarming....I have yet to study what he has claimed in detail yet....thanks for the link.....

[mrshoward]

When I hear men discussing whether or not polygamy is sinful, I always think, in the back of my mind, that what they're really considering is if they can have a couple of women at their sexual beck and call and get away with it. I mean, isn't that what men want?

I've thought that for years about the Mormons---and current day polygamists.

For example, the guy who kidnapped Elizabeth Smart---wanted another wife to increase the kingdom of God? or to have sex with an attractive 14-year-old?

Hey, don't flame me---I have no idea who on this thread is male or female. But if you are male, I wonder about your motives.

I've heard the warning against multiple wives in the OT were to keep Hebrew men--Levites and eventually, the King-- from taking wives from other cultures and adopting their gods----exactly what happened to Soloman.

Just my 2 cents!

[joint heir]

:D female


This thread started as a side track in a conversation about Sen. Santorum's comments....

We were just curious about what the Bible actually said about polygamy....

allowed...

tolerated...

or sinful?

that is all....I think we are all actually very scared of plural marriages:eek:lol....one spouse is quite enough;)

[pilgrimian]

Agreed...

I'm going to start with one, at least!;) And I'll stop with one, too (if she puts up with me!)...

Godspeed,
Matthew

P.S. I think Senator Santorum made a lot of sense in his talk. I have appreciated his thoughts on much else in government, too. Since Levin and Stabenow are my Senators:rolleyes, God bless 'em (I actually sat in front of Senator Stabenow at Midnight Mass this past Christmas Eve...she and her boyfriend were so noisy!!! -- I'm not Catholic, by the way -- and I accidently sat on her hand!), I've got Senator-envy...

P.P.S. Mrs. Howard....I meant to reference your post. I don't have any motivation to have more than one wife. Honestly. I would love one wife...preferably a Filipina.;) But, of course, God knows. I had a friend who dated a Muslim some time back, and he was quite intrigued with the idea. But I reminded him of what life was like with her...and the fact that she wasn't a Christian...etc., etc. Well, they broke up later on. Good thing. We still keep touch with her, though she's in Malaysia. I still pray for her.

Welcome Back, Hyssop!....glad you had a good time on the trip. And I'm really geeked that you are enjoying Dr. Fruchtenbaum's book! I've been blessed by it...glad you're gettin' blessed, too! L'chaim in Yeshua!:smokin

[Hyssop]

:rofl :lol

I'm back. Great trip/long drive. I had some fantastic bonding time/Bible time with my DH and I cannot say enough good things about the MC book. THANK YOU Fructhtenbaum rocks!!!!!

Hi JointHeir! I will add some to this thread in the morning- I think you are really on to something. The truth is more important than our feelings. I wish more people were as interested in the sin/non sin of this so we could get to the bottom of the mystery

BTW Matthew- I agree, just one is a good place to start:b

((hugs))

Hyssop

[aboundingjoy]

Maybe this is simplistic, but aren't we as Christians supposed to obey the laws of the land? And isn't it the law of the USA that one spouse at a time is the limit?

If there are posters from countries with different laws, then it is something up for discussion--Otherwise, I can't see why it is signifcant to most of us.

[Hyssop]

With much respect, I think you are missing the point (it is a little confusing because this thread started somewhere else...)
As far as I've seen, no one here is asking if we should become polygamists :eek :lol

I'm pretty sure that we are all quite content living under this "law of the land." However, it is just an interesting Q to some- since people routinely call this a sin- so the Q is not should we all become polygamists-actually polygnyists ;) It is what did God say about marriage- sexual sin ect. and was more than one wife a sin?? Jointheir laid it out earlier.

Hyssop <><

You wrote : That you are really geeked? Is that a new slang word for happy?? :D

[Wileyzmuse]

Great topic!

My initial thoughts on this were in line with Matthew's post about populating the nation(s). Did anyone see the 48 Hours special about the mormon family in Utah, the husband was going to be prosecuted for having so many wives. Well, a few of the wives liked the fact that there were several of them. They spoke of having more time to accomplish things they wanted to do, and feeling less pressured to always be there at his beck and call.

It surprised me to hear those women ~ but it made sense in a very practical way. Maybe God actually allowed it to help women, and not just to gratify men's desires...maybe more women were ensured husbands and therefore protection/acceptance in society?

YSIC,
Patricia

[skylark]

Although Thomas Green's (the Utah man who was prosecuted) wives expressed satisfaction with the polygamous lifestyle, there have been several cases in recent years of young teenage girls running away to escape arranged polygamous marriages. Other women have also fled these marriages. Some marriages are arranged for very young teenage girls. The following list presents another side to polygamy. It is from Tapestry against Polygamy, an organization devoted to fighting against the abuses of polygamy.

Danger signs of abuse within a polygamous relationship (http://www.polygamy.org/dangersigns.shtml)

FAQ (http://www.polygamy.org/faq.shtml)

[skylark]

1 Timothy 3:2
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

1 Timothy 3:12
Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Titus 1:6
If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.


Having only one one wife was a requirement for deacons and bishops. Timothy mentioned it in the same sentance as being blameless.

[Hyssop]

Okay! Here's some food for thought- stories like the ones you mentioned make better "news" than stories of happy marriages. Right? Do you trust the liberals or liberal media? Would you believe happy polygny stories?

Why is this country so vehemently oppossed to more than one wife but lukewarm (for the most part) on the obvious other sins-or of homosexuality for instance?

Doesn't satan work against family? Doesn't he want Christians to have less children? Doesn't he want to twist anything that may prosper the Church? Okay the Morman pologamy thing is a bad deal, but Mormans did NOT invent polygamy! Plus, we are talking OT/NT Jew/Christian. Mormons did not invent polygny, the big Q is who did? God, satan, man? Did God consider it a sin?? A sin?

My biggest stumbling block is sometimes forgetting and putting my marriage relationship above or in front of my Christ relationship (just being honest)..... I bet you that plural wives are much more humble- or Chirst focused. But who knows the truth? I could be way off.

You betcha that I like my husband treating me special and being the "one"- but I also feel prideful about it at times. He is a fantastic man, and I will hoarde him till the day I die (lol)- often, I wish we could be married in heaven! Is that wrong? God knows my heart.

I agree with Patricia that women could in theory actually benefit from this practice in a Godly home- but could this practice exist in a Godly home?????? That is my big question. Because truthfully -IF one could get over the "weirdness" of more than one wife- and if it were legal, there could be great benefits, homeschooling for one, sisterly companionship, bigger Christian families, imagine holidays! How fun! You could have so much more help and support.

But in really the idea of my DH sleeping with another makes me feel a little grossed out and mostly jealous. Who is putting the jealous in my mind- satan or the Holy Spirit?

BTW, my husband is not pro-polgamy. He sees it the way I do, as a Biblical (?) Interesting- but not actually an issue to consider personally- legal or not.

I read somewhere that the Romans first made monogamy a law.
And that the Jews practiced polygny up until fairly recently? Does someone know more about that?

I think the reason that maybe there are so many weirdos or bad people practicing it in the US now- is that (most) "normal" people don't break the law. And most Christians believe that not only is it a sin- it is breaking the law of the land. Personally, I caution to call polygamy a sin, putting it in the same catagory as homosexuality/beastiality ect. :puke

What's weird is that liberals/female liberals especially, HATE polygny. Hmmm I tend to take a second look at anything the "world" doesn't accept.

Edit to add: I bet if you asked monogamous married or divorced women if they though marriage (in general) was a good thing- you would get lots of interesting answers! IMO depends on the faith and the focus to make any marriage/Christian family work. Are we put on this earth to be "happy all the time" or to serve and love no matter what?


:) Hyssop <><

[skylark]

I did not intend to imply that all polygamous marriages were unhappy. I thought that the comments that Tom Green's wives made should be balanced with the comments others have made. I don't think that the news is so liberal in Utah.

Perhaps polygamy is an unhealthy relationship. It seems like it would give way to a very authoritative relationship, that devalues women. Islamic culture that encourages polygamy certainly seems to control and devalue women. Is it derogatory towards women? If so, could that be why deacons and bishops were required to have only one wife in the NT?

I only see evidence that polygamy was tolerated in the OT... no evidence that it was initiated by God. There are many instances in which it lead to conflicts, some of which are still ongoing to this day.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28

[Hyssop]

I appreciate your views/opinion, great things to think about.

I have noticed that it seems if one declares the (possibility) of polygny as "maybe" not being a sin, other people automatically assume you are all for it. I think that is too bad, because I'd hoped what we were trying to do is explore both/all sides of the issue, not make a case for legalization or whatever.

If a person has already decided what is right/wrong -can they honestly evaluate an issue?

I've tried to empty myself of pre-conceived ideas/personal feelings and see this clearly. I'll get off here and into my Bible and post some scripture that puzzles me- then perhaps you can help me understand your take on this. BTW I've taken a more pro-slant just to even the field some (because I've noticed most of the replies tend to dwell on negative aspects.)

I hope I have made it clear that I'm sitting on the fence on this one- I'm as of yet undecided and am still in study. The goal would not be to "okay" the practice- but to fully appreciate the Word by understanding God and seeing sin the way He does- not so much in human terms.

Thanks :) Hyssop <><

[joint heir]

Hyssop....

but we all know that just because a marriage is a happy one does not mean that it is a biblical one.....

and in a plural marriage wives could have more time to focus on God but what about the husband....for him to love his wifes and care for then properly... he would have little time for anything else..and surely his spiritual growth is just as valuable as that of the wives....

and not to mention that to follow the law in this area regarding what wives you can take vs those you can not.....would mean you were keeping the law and therefore would have to keep the whole law...

but we are to walk in the Spirit ...having the law fufilled in us through Christ......would the Spirit lead us to plural marriage?

I think that the Spirit would certainly keep to God's original design...one man for one woman..one flesh.....

polygamy can not be relevant for today or at any time in the church age in my opinion....
Hyssop ..did you say you had NT references to polygamy?

[Hyssop]

Then, isn't it best NOT to marry?

I personally do not believe that there is any true happiness apart from Christ. (If there was, then I never found it.)

I believe that a man's focus should be on the Lord.

See? We agree ;)

[Jael]

Originally posted by skylark
I only see evidence that polygamy was tolerated in the OT... no evidence that it was initiated by God. There are many instances in which it lead to conflicts, some of which are still ongoing to this day.

I agree, I have to come down on the side of "tolerated"...since God did not give specific instructions to avoid polygamy, perhaps the OT saints who practiced it were not sinning...in the sense that "...where no law is, [there is] no transgression." Rom 4:15 God regulated polygamy, but didn't forbid it (Deu 21:15). But I don't think it was His design...and for the church age, I think this scripture sums it up:

1Cr 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: [It is] good for a man not to touch a woman.

1Cr 7:2 Nevertheless, [to avoid] fornication, let every man have his own wife [NOT WIVES], and let every woman have her own husband.

[Jael]

Then, isn't it best NOT to marry?

Yes, Paul says it is best not to marry, but not everyone is able to live chastely:

1Cr 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: [It is] good for a man not to touch a woman.

1Cr 7:2 Nevertheless, [to avoid] fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

1Cr 7:7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.

1Cr 7:8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.

1Cr 7:9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

[skylark]

Trying to search the scriptures and avoid preconceptions...

Lamech: Adah and Zillah

Genesis 4
23 And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.
24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.

It doesn't sound like Lamech was walking with the Lord, but instead entering a downward spiral of sin.

Abraham: Sarah, Hagar, and Keturah

Sarah was Abraham's wife. Hagar was Sarah's handmaiden. There is no mention that she was his wife. Abraham exhibited a lack of faith in God's promise of a son by sleeping with her. Ishmael's descendants and Isaac's descendants are the Arabs and the Jews. What conflict may have been avoided if Abraham had remained true to his wife? He married Keturah after the death of Sarah.

Esau: Judith, Bashemath, and Mahalath

Genesis 26
34 And Esau was forty years old when he took to wife Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Bashemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite:
35 Which were a grief of mind unto Isaac and to Rebekah.

Why were they a source of grief? Because they were pagan? Because a plural marriage caused contension? Both?

Genesis 28
6 When Esau saw that Isaac had blessed Jacob, and sent him away to Padanaram, to take him a wife from thence; and that as he blessed him he gave him a charge, saying, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughers of Canaan;
7 And that Jacob obeyed his father and his mother, and was gone to Padanaram;
8 And Esau seeing that the daughters of Canaan pleased not Isaac his father;
9 Then went Esau unto Ishmael, and took unto the wives which he had Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael Abraham's son, the sister of Nebajoth, to be his wife.

It sounds like Esau was attempting to regain his father's blessing by this marriage. He did this while harboring a grudge toward Jacob and planning to kill him. A marriage motivated by greed and manipulation is not an ideal one.

Jacob: Leah, Rachel, Bilhah, and Zilpah

Jacob was deceived into marrying Leah, then married Rachel after seven years. Rachel gave Jacob her maidservant to sleep with so that she could have children. When Leah no longer bore children, she gave Jacob her maid "to wife." There seems to have been much jealousy and competition between them.

Genesis 30
8 And Rachel said, With great wrestlings have I wrestled with my sister

Isaac: Rebekah

Genesis 25
21 And Isaac intreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.

Isaac prayed to the Lord when his wife could not conceive, and the Lord answered his prayer. He showed faith in the Lord. Lamech, Abraham, Esau, and Jacob each showed a lack of faith.

Is a lack of faith sin? If so, does that make polygamy a sin?

[cameron222]

The man in the Bible credited with having great wisdom (Solomon)
had how many wives??

I have also heard that Moses had two wives.....is that correct?

Abraham had one wife, but took his concubine to have a child.....at the encouragement of his wife. Look at what that brought us in today's world......:sigh

[aboundingjoy]

Am I the only one who noticed this amazing statement from hyssop?
_____________________________________________________
Personally, I caution to call polygamy a sin, putting it in the same catagory as homosexuality/beastiality, etc.
____________________________________________________

The same portions of the OT that hyssop uses to address polygamy are the very portions that specifically state that homsexuality and beastiality are sins. I can only infer from hyssop's statement that she does not consider homosexuality and beastiality sins.

I am honestly trying to get this thread, but I don't, and I just find a lot of the comments about polygamy disturbing.

Forgive me if I have offended anyone, but I felt this was a viewpoint that needed to be expressed.

[Jael]

can only infer from hyssop's statement that she does not consider homosexuality and beastiality sins.

I'm pretty sure Hyssop is saying she hesitates to put polygamy in the same category as homosexuality and bestiality. And I would have to agree...God explicitly forbade those activities, but did not give a specific law against polygamy (He even tacitly acknowledged that they were doing it in OT times, because He regulated it).

Deu 21:15 If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, [both] the beloved and the hated; and [if] the firstborn son be hers that was hated:

Deu 21:16 Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit [that] which he hath, [that] he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, [which is indeed] the firstborn:

Deu 21:17 But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated [for] the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he [is] the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn [is] his.

You won't find a similar scripture saying "When you engage in homosexuality, do it this way..." or "When you engage in bestiality, do it this way..." Those activities were clearly designated as sinful.

[aboundingjoy]

jael,

Thank you. I read it with a different inference.

[7Rock]

This may be a little off topic, but how come when there are list of sins against God in the Bible, prostitution is always listed as "male prostitution" and not just prostitution in general?

Did he look at female prostitutes as victims, and have compassion on them?
Was that the only way a single woman could support herself back then without becoming a slave?

[pilgrimian]

Originally posted by Hyssop
Then, isn't it best NOT to marry?

I personally do not believe that there is any true happiness apart from Christ. (If there was, then I never found it.)

I believe that a man's focus should be on the Lord.

See? We agree ;)

Very good point...but I don't want to burn somewhere south of the Equator...

1 Corinthians 7:

9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

;)

P.S. Yes, I know what this verse means...:b

[joint heir]

I agree that it is best not to marry....

but the Lord also blesses those who are married...I think the best blessing is children....having a child of your own is one of the greatest windows into understading God's love for us as our Father..

Skylark.....thanks for those scriptures they do put polygamy in a different light..and it is also interesting that Rachel died soon after Jacob repented..and he was left with his first wife Leah....


and it is very interesting that it was considered a lack of faith for the men to find another wife or woman to bear them children if their first wife was barren...


I would think that a lack of faith is sin....what about everyone else?

[Hyssop]

:rofl :lol

:evil Hmm, kinda reminds me of an ol' Johnny Cash song

Matthew I hereby give you permission to marry, but only to a "Nice Messianic Jewish girl" ;)

Did you ever notice the ones who (usually) quote the better not to marry verse ARE already married?:eek :smokin