Seldom-cited verse refuting OSAS

[ChopinFan]

Ecclesiastes 8:10 And so I saw the wicked buried, who had come and gone from the place of the holy, and they were forgotten in the city where they had so done: this is also vanity.

I rarely see this one in the OSAS debate, but it is quite profound. It seems to be an Old Testament example of Jude's "twice dead" group.

Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

[Timothy]

When I just read Jude, I believe that in looking at the context of the entire text, it is speaking of the unsaved. It reminds me very much of Romans 1, actually.

1:4 "ungodly men"

1:7 "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" referring to the unsaved from Sodom and Gomorrha.

1:11 "they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished"

1:15 "to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds"

1:19 "having not the Spirit"

[Timothy]

Between the two passages, I definitely see the relation of the wicked/unsaved coming to a place of where to godly/saved people are. This is an excellent parallel/reference passage, by the way!!

I don't see any relevance to the doctrine of eternal security....

[ChopinFan]

O Timothy! Surely thou art jesting :D

When I just read Jude, I believe that in looking at the context of the entire text, it is speaking of the unsaved

I don't have a huge problem with that statement. I think where we would disagree is that you would say they had never been saved to begin with, and I would argue that they had.

Before conversion we were all "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2). But this group in Jude were not once dead, but "twice dead."

I don't see any relevance to the doctrine of eternal security....

Well, the passage in Ecclesiastes probably wouldn't be the best choice for a "stand-alone" proof text refuting OSAS, but rightly divided with the myriad of other verses, I do find it intriguing. :)

[dusty]

Hi Chopin! Good to see you. :)

Twice dead...could be referring to being subject to physical death combined with eternal death, or, to their spiritual condition (dead) while living and their eternal destiny as known for fact for those who reject Christ's Life...the one death being born spiritually dead, and the second as already being subject to the second death of hell.

Just for a contrast of the OT verse, a few OT verses that support the eternal justification of the saint...

I know that, whatsoever, God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it...
Eccl. 3:14

For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not His saints; they are preserved forever...
Ps. 37:28

For the Lord shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken...
Prov. 3:26



:)

[ChopinFan]

Hey Dusty! Good to see you too :)

I have heard that interpretation about "twice dead" referring to a mixture of physical and spiritual death, but it seems like "spiritual" all the way to me.

The passage in Jude implies that the person is physically alive :

Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots

And we know that one can only die once physically (with the exception of Lazarus. widow of Nain's son, Dorcas, etc. etc.) in accordance with Hebrews "as it is appointed unto man once to die, but after this the judgement."

Much like the prodigal son who was physically alive, but spiritually dead, when he left his Father's love.

Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry

Luke 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

[dusty]

Chopin, I agree with you that the ones being referred to were physically alive -- yet spiritually dead. (To clarify: the second death I was referring to was that of Rev. 21:8...the second death of the lake of fire and God knowing the eternal state/destiny of all men, able to make a statement concerning their end.)


:)

[Paul]

[QUOTETwice dead...could be referring to being subject to physical death combined with eternal death, or, to their spiritual condition (dead) while living and their eternal destiny as known for fact for those who reject Christ's Life...the one death being born spiritually dead, and the second as already being subject to the second death of hell. [/QUOTE]

I agree, dusty.

Everyone dies once. This is the first death. The Christian is saved from the second death...

Revealtion 2:10-11

"Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
...He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death."'


Revelation 20:14 explains what the second death is...

"Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

[Timothy]

I can think of at least four types of death in scripture. It is important to distinguish between the second and the third, as they can both be referred to loosely as "spiritually dead."

1 - Physical death: i.e. we all have a physical death sentence, and are all walking dead people.
2 - Dead spirit: anyone unsaved.
3 - Spiritually Dead: when a saved person's faith is dead/dormant.
4 - Second Death: lake of fire.

Now looking at the first passage, I only see that the passage is describing wicked men that had "come and gone."

Ecclesiastes 8:9-10 "All this have I seen, and applied my heart unto every work that is done under the sun: there is a time wherein one man ruleth over another to his own hurt. And so I saw the wicked buried, who had come and gone from the place of the holy, and they were forgotten in the city where they had so done: this is also vanity. Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. Though a sinner do evil an hundred times, and his days be prolonged, yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before him: But it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong his days, which are as a shadow; because he feareth not before God."

The same with Jude. These "certain men crept in unawares" are wolves in sheeps clothing. Unbelievers that show up to stir trouble.

Jude 4-15 "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots. Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

An interesting parallel passage about "creepers."

II Timothy 3:5 "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses..."

An interesting parallel passage that mentions the same "brute beasts" that that "feast with you."

II Peter 2:12-13 "But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you"

An interesting parallel passage about being "rooted up."

Matthew 15:13 "But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up."

Now that I've fully concluded in my mind that they are unsaved, the dead twice could mean a couple of things. One, they were first dead in sins like all man is in an unsaved state, and the second dead in the pending lake of fire. Two, they were first dead in sins like all man is in an unsaved state, and the second dead is their rejection of the truth.

[pilgrimian]

Oh, Chopin, Chopin!

Did you ever come up with an answer for the Lamb's Book of Life? Those who are saved...the elect...have been written there from the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4; Rev. 13:8). Therefore, for anyone to lose salvation they would have to be "blotted out." Won't happen with the Lamb's Book of Life. Those names cannot be blotted out (Rev. 3:5).

God doesn't write some in and then erase them. He knows who is saved, and who isn't. There is security in our faith. God has much better things to do than erase names, and write them back in (as there seems to be a belief that people can become saved again). Thing is, God figured it all out before the foundation of the world.

Furthermore, the "twice dead" bit is just talking about "autumn trees without fruit." They didn't produce in the spring and are still barren in the fall. This has nothing to do with people who "lose their salvation." These individuals were just not saved in the first place.

Godspeed,
Matthew

[ChopinFan]

Hey pilgrimian!

I didn't realize there was an unanswered challenge outstanding. Let me see if I can address your concerns.

I don't want to put you in the proverbial "box" but your remarks bear striking resemblance to five-point Calvinism. If that's the case, it's going to be very difficult for us to find any "point" of agreement in this debate, but I like you, so we'll try anyways :D

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Ok, I happen to know you're a stickler for hermeneutics (did I spell it right? :lol) . What's the obvious implication here? The implication is that if one does not overcome, he will indeed be blotted out. I mean why even throw out the implication, if there's no possibility there. Everybody and his brother would have to know exactly what he meant when this warning was read to the church at Sardis.

OK-don't like to do this, but how's 'bout an earthly example?

"He that stays away from a hot stove will not burn his hands."

What's the obvious implication there if you do touch a hot stove?

I think the same principle would apply.

Ok....back to the scriptures.

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

How would you refute this? Seems pretty cut/dried to me :)

Now as to the verse about the name written "before the foundation of the world." That may be a slippery-slope that will take this thread into a free-will/predestination slide, but let me say this. Is it not possible that God knows (foreknowledge) who will be saved from the foundation of the world, and yet we still have to make that choice?

No, I don't believe God sits up in heaven with his eraser writing in and blotting out all day long. But I do believe God has said that the possiblity exists for someone to have their name blotted out. And just the mere hint of a possibility, is enough to motivate me to continue in the faith and follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man will see the LORD.

[glorydays]

chopin,

Here's my take -- those in Ecclessiates 8:10 talks about those who have come and gone from the holy place. They were unbelieving worshippers -- we see them every day in church. They are the "almost persuadeds," the Laodiceans of this world who have the outer appearances of faith but are blind, and poor, and wretched still in the kingdom of God.

It was true in the OT; it is true now -- the kingdom of heaven is made up of believers mixed with these unbelievers and they have different fates. That explains Jude 1:12 as well. They seem to be saved but they are just Laodiceans led around by a chief Laodicean. The "die twice" reference is that they die -- become stiff-necked and hardened -- to scripture and things spiritual; then they die physically.

I agree with you about God's foreknowledge of the book of life -- good response. But the erasing is only done when one dies without ever having received Christ. Salvation is a reorientation of your life toward God Who then, as your Father, takes responsiblity for your upbringing. Phil 1:6 says He has begun a good work in you and will continue it "until the day of Jesus Christ." And we know from Phil 3:21 that it is by that "working that He will subdue all things unto Himself." IOW, you can't stop it working -- "it" is the Holy Spirit" in you.

[pilgrimian]

First off, I'll dodge your assumption that I'm a five-point Calvinist. Thanks for maligning me!:sigh (just being sarcastic) All because I believe that God is faithful and keeps His promises? I'm not saying we are not to work towards sanctification, but we are not grieve the Holy Spirit (Eph. 4:30).

No, I'm more along the lines of 4 pointed...but most 5-pointed folks wouldn't take me since I don't even agree with the specifics of what they say within the 4 points where I generally agree with them. I think Loraine Boettner (5-pointed, and evidently proud of it) once said that only the 5 points together are harmonious, and no one is really a Calvinist if they're not 5-pointed. This is just fine with me since I never wanted to be a Calvinist in the first place. I would rather be Biblical. Being Biblical means being a Dispensationalist!:) I strongly disagree with a Limited Atonement. It's about as bad as saying that someone can lose the free gift of salvation after being sealed by the Spirit.;) And perhaps you have some Scripture that talks about people being unsealed...?

So....let's be Biblical, and not merely logical.

Revelation 3:5 does not say that names will be erased from the book, nor does it state that names of non-elect individuals are even written in it. As you said, this is an implication....an implication which you see. What it's saying is that one will not die spiritually who is in the Lamb's Book of Life. We know that many are spiritually dead already because they don't believe in Christ. And this is what happens to them...

Revelation 20:12, 15.

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds....And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The context of this passage is the Great White Thrown Judgment, which is a judgment for unbelievers only (who are spiritually dead). Those whose names are not found in this book are thrown into the lake of fire.

Notice, that this verse does not mention that names were erased, or "blotted." It is significant, I believe, that it is not simply stated that the names of those thrown into the lake of fire are not found in the book (as if they could have been written at one point and subsequently erased), but rather, that their names are not found written in this book. The Greek term used here is gegrammenos, and it is a perfect participle which indicates an action that has been completed with present effects. The action that has been completed with present effects is that the names of those thrown into the lake of fire have not been written. A better translation would read, "If anyone's name was not found having been written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." The issue here is not that the names of these non-elect individuals were written in the book and subsequently erased, but rather, that their names were never written in the book to begin with.

I'm afraid that the Scripture in the Textus Receptus for Revelation 22:19 is debatable.

A better reading is:

Revelation 22:

19if you subtract from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will subtract your part from the Tree of Life and the Holy City that are written in this book.

This is especially true, because context is important. Chapter 22 begins this way:


1 Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb,
2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Anyone who adds or subtracts to Revelation, or the Word of God, will ultimately receive the Lake of Fire. Who would they be...? Well, Mormons with the Book of Mormon...Christian Scientists with their Key to the Scriptures are two examples. Doing this adding and subtracting is merely evidence of their not being saved to begin with. They are not willing to take the Scriptures as the final authority. They will lose out on dwelling in the New Jerusalem, and the Lake of Fire will be their eternal abode.

God's blessings in our Passover Lamb alone,
Matthew

P.S.

The Book of Life should be delineated from the Lamb's Book of Life. After all, Moses wasn't asking to be spiritually dead...but merely be dead in Exodus 32:32. So, one needs to read contextually...The Book of Life, or the Book of the Living does records the days of all those who are living (elect and non-elect). Moses wasn't asking to be killed in place of the Israelites who had worshipped the Golden Calf.

P.P.S.

I will not drag this out much further, but wanted to make mention of the translation you used with Revelation 22:19. There is no Greek text that supports the view that this ought to be translated as "book of life."

Desiderius Erasmus (who, as you may well know, put together the bulk of what became the KJV) imported this text from the Latin Vulgate. And it would be interesting to speak with Jerome on this one...why did he translate it "book"? No Greek manuscripts support it....so why did he translate it that way? I'll stick with the Apostle John on this one.

[Brie]

Ok . . . along the OSAS lines, I have a comment/question . . .

How can people say that just because you have accepted Christ into your life, that you are "saved" from going to hell. I have a hard time believeing that some can ask Christ to be their personal Saviour, and then live whatever life they choose, without fear of going to hell. I don't see how someone would be able to stand before God, with unrepented sin, and Him still let them in :sigh

I don't have any verse right off to prove this, just my personal opinion on what I have learned. I'll have to do some searching ;)

Is this what those who believe OSAS think?

I am not trying to sarcastic or anything. Just want to learn as much as I can, so I can pass it on. My husband is one of these "ungodly Christians." He accepted Christ, yet refuses to live for Him. Doing whatever he wants, even though he knows it could send him to hell :sigh What about him? :sigh His heart seems so cold.

[pilgrimian]

Originally posted by Brie
Ok . . . along the OSAS lines, I have a comment/question . . .

How can people say that just because you have accepted Christ into your life, that you are "saved" from going to hell. I have a hard time believeing that some can ask Christ to be their personal Saviour, and then live whatever life they choose, without fear of going to hell. I don't see how someone would be able to stand before God, with unrepented sin, and Him still let them in :sigh

I don't have any verse right off to prove this, just my personal opinion on what I have learned. I'll have to do some searching ;)

Is this what those who believe OSAS think?

I am not trying to sarcastic or anything. Just want to learn as much as I can, so I can pass it on. My husband is one of these "ungodly Christians." He accepted Christ, yet refuses to live for Him. Doing whatever he wants, even though he knows it could send him to hell :sigh What about him? :sigh His heart seems so cold.

This isn't what those of us who believe in Eternal Security believe. First of all, I would pray that that individual would have a group of friends who pray for them, and encourages them to get into Bible study, etc., so that they wouldn't fall into any sin. We are going to sin, even as Christians. But the Holy Spirit works in us to keep us straight. We are totally justified, not totally sanctified just yet. I looked forward to being totally sanctified!!!

I would sooner question whether they were truly saved, before ever questioning the Holy Spirit leaving them. Falling into sin grieves the Holy Spirit (Eph. 4:30), and we are not to use our freedom in Christ in this way:

1 Peter 2
16 Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God.

I will be praying for your husband. I will pray that the Holy Spirit works in his heart to get him hooked on the goodness that comes from knowing Christ.

Does your husband like to read? I didn't really get both feet into theology till I started learning about the Jewish roots of our faith. This answered so many things for me that had been so ambiguous throughout my earlier Christian life. I believe I was saved then...but the Spirit wasn't working through me as He is now. I drew closer to Him...He abounded within me. I pray that the same will happen for your husband. Here's a great group of studies:

Fruit from The Frucht (http://www.ariel.org/ffruit.html)

Questions & Answers (http://www.ariel.org/qaframe.html)

God's blessings in our glorious Messiah,
Matthew

[Brie]

I would sooner question whether they were truly saved, before ever questioning the Holy Spirit leaving them.

Well, I was there the Sunday monring he asked Christ into his life. So, I believe that the Holy Spirit is in him. I don't think that The Holy Spirit has "left", but his heart is cold to any direction and/or guidance He may give to my husband.

Of course, we all sin. I understand this. It is our nature. But, those who intentionally do things, even though they know they shouldn't, what about them?

I guess what I don't understand is, when we go to heaven, and stand before God, and are judged, are you saying that if the Holy Spirit is inside of them that God will allow them in heaven? Even if they haven't been living a life for him and are full of sin?

For example, you have 2 people, both are saved (have asked Christ into their heart). One has devoted his/her life to doing the good works that Christ said to do, producing a good fruit, leading others to Christ, etc . . . The other one, is say, into drugs, prostitution, stealing, etc . . . (These are just examples)

How can both these people stand before God and be judged equally and both be allowed into heaven just because the Holy Spirit is inside of them? :sigh

If this is the case, why do any of us work so hard to do the things that God commanded? We could all be out partying, doing whatever we wanted, cause we would know we were going to heaven regardless of what kind of life we live.

No, pilgrimian, my husband doesn't like to read. And he never gets on the computer, doesn't really understand any of it. So, I would have to look everything up and read to him, which gets old He doesn't seem to care about learning about anything of God either. He has said before that he doesn't even "feel" like a Christian, he said he knows he's not living a good life, but he doesn't seem to care about doing anything about it. He said he knows he going to hell, but doesn't care to do anything about it :sigh

Thank you though, for your prayers for him, he truly needs all he can get.

[pilgrimian]

Take the thief on the cross next to Christ...what did he do? He didn't do anything but believe, and Christ said that he would be in Paradise with Him that day. Did he repent...was he baptised...he didn't have any fruit to speak of...he believed near the very end...and He was saved. I've been saved since I was 9...trying to live a good Christian life since then! It doesn't seem fair that I work so hard, and the thief got into Heaven without any of that....!

It's like two people who hear the Gospel...deny it...and later that evening one of them gets killed. He went to Hell. The other is alive for twenty more years, during which time he believes and is saved, and begins living a life patterned after the love of Christ. Is it fair? Not to our minds.

Think of it this way....

I have a sister, and when we were growing up and I knew she had done something wrong I wanted my parents to spank her. It was the right thing for them to do, I thought. But I'm not the parent...I'm not the one in control. My sister had to answer to my parents for what she did. I wasn't in the place of authority to tell my parents how to discipline her.

It really comes down to the fact that God knows our hearts. He knows His children, and He disciplines those that are His.

If this is the case, why do any of us work so hard to do the things that God commanded? We could all be out partying, doing whatever we wanted, cause we would know we were going to heaven regardless of what kind of life we live.

We do the things that God commanded us to do...because we're commanded to do so. We are to love as Christ loved (John 15:12). The Holy Spirit is working in us, and we want to do what is pleasing to Him. Why? Well, in part because we want to...in part because we are thankful for the redemptive work Christ did on the cross for us. We could very well be out partying, and doing whatever we wanted...but I don't want to be there. If I was there I would want to talk about Christ....since many people who are out partying all the time are really very empty people. Personally, and quite honestly, they're no fun for me because we have little in common. If I was in a situation where I could share the Gospel, though, I certainly would. Trust me. I went to art college, and got beat over the head many times with atheist and agnostic epithets.

If your husband actually says he thinks he might be going to hell...why doesn't he do something about it? I don't know your situation, but perhaps there's something he's not dealing with...something brewing that may blow. I will keep praying for him, and I pray that he will read his Bible...this is the best place to begin. I didn't used to like to read as much as I do now. Now I don't have enough time in the day to read as I would like to.

Let me turn your scenario on its ear just a touch...the one about being before the Judgment Seat of Christ...

There may very well be people there that we didn't expect to see...people we believed should be in Hell. But are you or I going to take the time then and say, "You shouldn't be here...you should be at the Great White Throne Judgment -- which is for unbelievers like I know you are!!!" ???

I am just as unworthy as the next person. The only reason I will be able to stand before Christ without my knees buckling (though I wouldn't doubt it if they do!) is because of what He did for me! He paid the price...even for all the sins that I should have repented of, or forgot about. God's love is astounding, and it makes not so much sense to our finite minds all the time. It isn't fair that Christ died in our place, but I am ever grateful that He did.

I will be praying for you husband...personally, I don't understand why he doesn't want to change things. I pray that will change.

God's blessings in our glorious Messiah,
Matthew

[glorydays]

Brie,

Very touching post -- I empathize with you, sis.

First off, take your husband's testimony at face value. He is just one of those believers who is planted right now either in thin soil of among the thorns (Matt 13). The life came forth but was quickly dried or choked out. Decide which it is - no feeding or too many concerns in life. I've been through that -- my sister -- about every believer I know did not realize how much God wanted to help us with in our lives!

Next make God the solution (if you can). Rom 5:9-10 tells us that there is such a thing as being saved by the death of Christ (to avoid hell in the afterlife) as your husband seems to be and being saved by the life of Christ from hell on this earth. This is a revolutionary but true fact of the Christian life. There is no way - if he is saved - that he is not or will not experience "hell on earth" for his sin -- unless he confesses and stays close to God. But if we live life "in the Spirit," there is abundant grace even to cover our mistakes!

Try to wean him off the world -- make times together more satisying than what ever else he faces day to day. Do you know what love is? It is in every way being a blessing to the object of your love -- just as Christ was! Does Christ forgive and forget? Then you forgive and forget. That is one of the most important things in a marriage and a huge testimony for and of Christ! Let the Spirit bring him along by deed and not just by word.

Finally, 1 Cor 3:10-15 describes the "reward" of those who are saved only -- "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." No doubt then he will rather live in your mansion and by your rules them! :lol

[pilgrimian]

Brie,

Would he listen to audio tapes?

Messianic Bible Study (http://www.ariel.org/catrtape.html)

Godspeed,
Your brother in Messiah,
Matthew

[JArthur]

Jesus died for ALL sins did He not? Some people believe that when we are saved that means that only our past sins are forgiven. But ask yourself this. How many of your sins were future back when Christ was crucified? ALL of them were.

I defy anybody to show me even ONE scripture that says only our past sins are forgiven when we accept Him.

[Nimrod]

agree completly JArthur---

Christ did die for ALL our sins, past, present and future. To say we can "sin our way out" of the will of God is not scriptural (opinion). That would mean we can change God's plan for us and undo it with a simple action. God saved us by Grace, not by works (leading a sinless, repenting, Christ-filled life).

God accepted me for ever when I profesed faith in His precious son. His blood was enough to cover all my current and future sins too.

Peace

[HaveFaith]

Romans 11:29 KJV
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance( irrevocable G278 ).

Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance

G278 without repentance: From G1 (as a negative particle) and a presumed derivative of G3338; irrevocable:—without repentance, not to be repented of.

irrevocable \Ir*rev"o*ca*ble\, a. [L. irrevocabilis: cf. F. irr['e]vocable. See In- not, and Revoke, and cf. Irrevocable.] Incapable of being recalled or revoked; unchangeable; irreversible; unalterable; as, an irrevocable promise or decree; irrevocable fate.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the GIFT of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 8:28
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are CALLED according to his purpose.

Grace and Peace,
Paul

Questions and Answers at:
www.HaveFaith.org
(2c) How was Lord Jesus Christ born without sin ?
(3c) Can a TRUE believer fall from grace ?
(4c) What really happened during Noah's flood ?
(5c) How was Noah's Ark a picture of the eternal security of a TRUE believer ?
(6c) What is the unpardonable sin ?
(7c) When was the earth created according to the Bible ?
(8c) How can God send people to hell that have never heard the Gospel ?
(9c) Will there be degrees of punishment for those sentenced to hell, like those that mislead others ?
(10c) What is the origin and role of the various races of people ?

[kingkideternal]

Since God proposed a better covenant.

Heb:8:6: But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb:8:11: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

And all nations should come to know the Lord as set forth even in the old covenant.

Psalms:72:11: Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Maybe we shouldn't wonder if all nations were not written in the book of life to begin with, just not accepting it through faith in Christ ?

Just wondering here.

[Ibelong2Him]

Originally posted by Brie


Of course, we all sin. I understand this. It is our nature. But, those who intentionally do things, even though they know they shouldn't, what about them?



they are saved, they are living life in the flesh. They need spiritual growth. That doesn't mean that they will REALIZE that. They might even BELIEVE that they are doing enough simply by believing.

SAVED people can manifest the works of the flesh so much so that they would appear as lost people. But the grace of God is so great, His mercy and love are so much that He provided a way that He could forgive us.

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.



For example, you have 2 people, both are saved (have asked Christ into their heart). One has devoted his/her life to doing the good works that Christ said to do, producing a good fruit, leading others to Christ, etc . . . The other one, is say, into drugs, prostitution, stealing, etc . . . (These are just examples)

How can both these people stand before God and be judged equally and both be allowed into heaven just because the Holy Spirit is inside of them?


they have been made equally righteous through the precious blood of Jesus.

God is holy, He cannot look upon sin. ANY SIN. Say you gossip about someone at work, God could not look upon you any more than He could look upon a murderer without the blood covering that sin.

If this is the case, why do any of us work so hard to do the things that God commanded? We could all be out partying, doing whatever we wanted, cause we would know we were going to heaven regardless of what kind of life we live.
Galatians 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

liberty=freedom to serve Christ! NOT freedom to sin.

if we were out partying doing whatever we wanted we would be living life in the flesh. If we are giving in to the flesh we are not living in the spirit. Therefore we are not producing fruit. Galatians 5:16-25

on the other hand...

if you are working to keep your salvation you are attempting to gain eternal life THROUGH THE FLESH.



We should be working to serve the Lord for NO other reason than that we love Him and desire to serve Him.

edit: I feel led to add...

My husband is living a fleshly life. I struggle daily with just being respectful to him when I have NO respect for his choices. I realize that is just one of the ways that the Lord is refining me. My husband told me last weekend that he is 'doing enough' for the Lord by making sure his kids are in church (only because I TAKE THEM!). I wonder why he keeps his heart so hard towards the Lord, but deep down I know that it is an issue of trust. As a child he trusted Jesus with his whole heart, but life since has made him lose that wholehearted trust. :(

I understand your heartache. I will pray for your husband Brie.

read the power of a praying wife, it is a good book. :)

[mephib]

Some very good posts here. A couple of randon, unorganized comments:

1. It is NOT our nature to sin once we have received Christ. We have been given a new nature. The old man, the sin nature we inherited from Adam, has been crucified with Christ. Our spirit has been circumcised, the old rebellious nature cast off by the Father (Col. 2; Rom. 6) and we have been joined as ONE spirit to Christ (1 Cor. 6:17). We now partake of His nature, the divine nature. He is our righteousness, not our conduct. (1 Cor. 1:30) We have been born of God. The old [insert name] could never be saved, even if he was a pope, but the new [insert same name] can be saved regardless of who he is once he has been made a child of God through the new birth. He is now part of the family. God takes care of His family.

2. Therefore, our identity, not our conduct, determines our salvation. Are we in the family or not? Would you jetisson one of your kids for his performance? Of course not. God is a much better Father than that. He loves His children regardless of their performance, but His desire is that their performance will slowly be conformed to their new nature. Those who think they can lose their salvation are basically saying that they are responsible in the first place for obtaining it. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am not "a sinner saved by grace." Once I was saved my identity was no longer as a sinner as my sin nature was eradicated by the Father. I am a saint, as Paul rightly calls ALL the members of the church irrespective of their particular conduct.

3. The Father expected nothing from our old nature but sinning and that is why He gave us the law...Because we were too proud to admit that we couldn't measure up. The law was to lead us to helplessness over our condition, and a plea for mercy, at which time The Father saves us through joining us with Christ on the cross in His death, and then in His resurrection life. Romans 6. Thus Christ is now our very LIFE. Gal. 2:20. We are saved therefore on the basis that Christ is saved, and we are one with Him. The pressure is off us.

3. We sin now because we don't know what the Father has done. We haven't understood the Scripture. Only the Spirit can open our eyes to see that we are now OFF the perfomance standard. We have a new identity, and it is in Christ. Once we know that we come to understand that the new life actually doesn't like sinning. There are still parts of us that seem to want to sin, as Paul discovers in Romans 7, but it is NOT US (i.e., our nature), BUT THE SIN THAT IS IN OUR MEMBERS. When we respond according to our nature we do not sin, but we are often deceived by sin into still thinking that sinning is who we still are.

Finally, once we take our eyes off our own conduct, and put them on Christ, and what the Father has done for us IN Christ, then our conduct problems will get taken care of as a side benefit.

[Brie]

All right . . . I am begining to feel like this -----> :dizzy


First off - pilgrimian - Yes, my hubby does like listening to tapes/CD's. In fact, he does enjoy listening to the Bible on tape. He has a CD player in his truck, and I have been looking into getting the Bible on CD for him. It's just a bit expensive for us right now ;)

Originally posted by HaveFaith

Romans 11:29 KJV
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance( irrevocable G278 ).

Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance

G278 without repentance: From G1 (as a negative particle) and a presumed derivative of G3338; irrevocable:—without repentance, not to be repented of.

irrevocable \Ir*rev"o*ca*ble\, a. [L. irrevocabilis: cf. F. irr['e]vocable. See In- not, and Revoke, and cf. Irrevocable.] Incapable of being recalled or revoked; unchangeable; irreversible; unalterable; as, an irrevocable promise or decree; irrevocable fate.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the GIFT of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 8:28
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are CALLED according to his purpose.


Please correct me if I'm wrong, but what I get from this is that we do not have to ask for forgiveness in order to receive God's gifts? Including salvation?

1 John 1:9 " If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

Why does the Bible say this if it doesn't matter what we do?

It says to "confess our sins" and He will "purify us". Doesn't this mean that when we sin, we are unclean and we need to ask for forgiveness (repent)?

Originally posted by mephib

It is NOT our nature to sin once we have received Christ. We have been given a new nature. The old man, the sin nature we inherited from Adam, has been crucified with Christ.

Yes, I knew this . . . guess I should have clarified better ;)

I meant that we as humans, here on earth sin. Short of being unconscious, there is not much we can do to keep from sinning. Between our thoughts and emotions, satan trips us up pretty well. That is why we need to ask for forgiveness.

Ibelong2Him . . . I am going to be getting that book soon, I have heard many good thing about it :) And I will be praying for your hubby also



Ok . . . I am sorry if my thoughts seem jumbled up. I am tired tonight and there is a lot going on around here (hard to concentrate, ya know ;) ) but, what I am understanding from these posts is (please correct me if I am wrong) . . .

1. If you have asked Jesus to be your Saviour, you are going to heaven, no matter what.

2. We, as Christians, can live whatever life we want and still go to heaven.

3. We do not need to ask for forgiveness, because when Christ died on the cross, he forgave all our sins, past and present.


Please do not read any sarcasim into this, I do not mean for it to come across as such. I am sincerely trying to figure this out as it goes against what I have always known.

[mephib]

Posted by Brie:

["1. If you have asked Jesus to be your Saviour, you are going to heaven, no matter what.

2. We, as Christians, can live whatever life we want and still go to heaven.

3. We do not need to ask for forgiveness, because when Christ died on the cross, he forgave all our sins, past and present."]

Let's take them one at a time.

1. A genuine confession of Christ as savior is always accompanied or preceded by repentance, and that is the essential and only element of salvation, because at that point you have consented to the Father identifying you with Christ and dispensing with the "old man". The "old man" is the part of you that was the "sinner." The Father places him on the cross with Christ and kills him. Your old identity is gone. That is why Abraham and Saul got new names. We have a new name too that we will be given in heaven, according to Revelation. And why shouldn't we? The Father has birthed us and therefore has the right to name us! Only God knows whether any particular plea for mercy or cry of repentance is genuine and emanating from the inner man. All we humans here are the words of another human, and anyone can utter those words and still not be changed. Therefore, at the end of the day, we can only speculate (usually unhelpful) about another's salvation, although the "fruits" of another should help us identify our brothers and sisters in Christ.

2. Technically, yes. As Paul says, "Everything is permissible" but perhaps not profitable. (1 Cor. 6:12) We are no longer under the laws of the material world. (Col. 2:20-23) The law is for the earthly, the walking dead, the wordly. We are citizens of another place and therefore not subject to the moral laws of this world. Instead the moral law is part of and ingrained in our nature. We have been given a new heart. The law is not a standard we try to attain to, but it is like breathing to our new nature. Our new nature is holy and cannot help but manifest holiness. Remember this: we first have to understand who we are, that we are now saints. If we don't understand how the Father has changed our nature we will conclude that sin comes naturally and therefore we will excuse it. Rather, sin arises strictly because of a deception. Sin is very real and present within us, but it is hanging out in our members, cordoned off from our new nature, our "control panel", and yet we often follow sin if we don't understand that it really has no power over his anymore. P.S. A believer who practices sin may be taken home early by the Father to prevent further loss of reward, like a child who has been told to come home early from the dance for misconduct.

3. As for forgiveness, again, technically, you are correct. When we sin, what we are to do is to acknowledge our sin, in essence agree with God that we have done is contrary to His will and against our very nature. We are cleansed by the blood of Christ for all acknowledged (confessed sin). See 1 John 1:8-10. We are to thank the Lord for the forgiveness He has already procured for us. And remember that you are still saved if you die with certain sins unconfessed. Why? Because your salvation doesn't hinge upon your performance. It depends on your identity. Who are you now? A descendant strictly of Adam, or a son or daughter of the Living God? That concept so irked the Pharisees because they were proud of their resume'. And that is why the sinners, with no heavenly resume', flocked to Christ. His Life becomes our resume'.

[Doulos]

Brie,

I have a couple of comments concerning your husband, and I will do my best to keep it short and simple. First I'll give you a quote from one of the best preachers and theologians America ever produced.

Charles Hadon Spurgeon:

If the convert declares that he knows the Lord's will, but doesn't mean to attend to it. It is your duty to assure him that he is not saved.

Why would Spurgeon say such a thing? Frankly because if someone does not intend to do the will of the Lord, then that person has never accepted Christ as Lord to begin with.

Let's look at the gospel for a moment.

Romans 10:9-10 (NKJV)

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

What is it that we are to confess from our heart? We confess the Lordship of Jesus. That seems simple enough right? But wait, that has all kinds of implications.

If we confess Jesus as Lord from our heart that means that we realize that His commands are binding upon us and that we accept our own responsibility to live according to those commands. If this is not the case then we are not truly confessing Jesus as Lord.

So, if a person makes a verbal confession that Jesus is Lord but they have no intention of doing what He says they have made a false confession.

But, what if someone does intend to do what Jesus says when they make the confession, but change their mind later? If this is the case, it was still not a confession from the heart even if it was from the head. When the Bible talks about the heart it is talking about the deepest kind of knowledge possible. One can't just unknow things that come from the heart and once someone makes a true confession they receive the Spirit to ensure the stability of our heart in this regard.

Therefore, if someone makes confession but pays no mind to living as the Lord commands then they indeed were never made a true confession from the heart in the first place and are not saved.

[pilgrimian]

Originally posted by Doulos
First I'll give you a quote from one of the best preachers and theologians America ever produced.

Charles Hadon Spurgeon:


Charles Haddon Spurgeon was born in Kelvedon, Essex [England] in 1834. At the age of twenty Spurgeon became a Baptist pastor at the New Park Street Chapel in London. Spurgeon was such an impressive preacher that the chapel was unable to accommodate all those who wanted to hear him. It was therefore decided to build him a much larger chapel and in 1859 work began on the Metropolitan Tabernacle. When it was finished in 1861 it provided seating for 6,000 people. Spurgeon also became known to a wider audience after the publication of his book John Ploughman's Talk in 1869.

[Doulos]

Originally posted by pilgrimian


Charles Haddon Spurgeon was born in Kelvedon, Essex [England] in 1834. At the age of twenty Spurgeon became a Baptist pastor at the New Park Street Chapel in London. Spurgeon was such an impressive preacher that the chapel was unable to accommodate all those who wanted to hear him. It was therefore decided to build him a much larger chapel and in 1859 work began on the Metropolitan Tabernacle. When it was finished in 1861 it provided seating for 6,000 people. Spurgeon also became known to a wider audience after the publication of his book John Ploughman's Talk in 1869.

Yep, I should have caught that myself. I crossed some info from a different quote and edited it in. Thanks for the catch.

[kingkideternal]

Romans 11:29 KJV
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance

I read this as...if you are truly called of God and are using the gifts that He gave you they will certainly bring offence.

I take it from this that if someone claims to be using their God given gift and in the process offends someone they would never return to that person and say they are sorry.

Now there is still the multiple nature of our flesh vs. spirit, which is why the Lord told us that if any sin against us then ask forgiveness we should forgive...but anyone claiming a gift operation from the Lord will not repent for that particular operation.

It is also valid in any place someone may have a word against you and say it is from the Lord.

If you know their word is not true and you tell them so, you would never repent against that offence unless they themself personally said they were sorry.

Fake anointings from the Lord are a very serious offence.

[ChopinFan]

This thread has really taken on a life of it's own since I started it over a month ago :)

Since we've already derailed it to an extent, let's try to get back to the theme of "seldom used" verses in the OSAS/Non debate

The writings of Paul (especially Romans) are often cited as proof-texts for OSAS. I personally believe that this is why Peter issued his warning about wresting (twisting) the writings of Paul in II Peter chapter 3, but that's another topic altogether.

Now if Paul did preach OSAS, surely he would have never made it past the scrutiny of the Bereans. Let's take a look:

Acts 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

The concept of OSAS is completely inconsistent with what the volume of scriptures have stated about the nature of God in the Old and New Testaments. If Paul had come to Berea with a "once in grace, always in grace" message, the Bereans would no doubt have refuted him with many scriptures. Let's consider that perhaps portions of the New Testament containing warnings about apostacy had not been written for the sake of debate. That would have left the Bereans with primarily the Old Testament writings to measure/weigh Paul's doctrine. Surely they would have been familiar with Ezekiel's warnings.:

Ezekiel 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

I'll be interested to hear your responses.
:)

[pilgrimian]

Originally posted by ChopinFan

The concept of OSAS is completely inconsistent with what the volume of scriptures have stated about the nature of God in the Old and New Testaments. If Paul had come to Berea with a "once in grace, always in grace" message, the Bereans would no doubt have refuted him with many scriptures. Let's consider that perhaps portions of the New Testament containing warnings about apostacy had not been written for the sake of debate. That would have left the Bereans with primarily the Old Testament writings to measure/weigh Paul's doctrine. Surely they would have been familiar with Ezekiel's warnings.
:)

What most people seem to forget is the change of covenants...from the Mosaic to the New. Not all Scripture can be used by you folks as prooftexts. It's Old MacDonald Theology...here a verse, there a verse...every where a verse, verse.

Also, the Spirit didn't seal believers prior to Acts 2.

Furthermore, the Ezekiel passage is a warning to Israel. Read the Scripture in context. Ezekiel was under the Mosaic Covenant...not the New Covenant. In verse 17 Ezekiel is told he is a "watchman for the house of Israel."

How in the world do you know that the Bereans would have refuted Paul with many Scriptures if speaking to them about Eternal Security? They would have been bright enough to realize that with the death of Christ and the coming of the Spirit much was different.

[ChopinFan]

Originally posted by pilgrimian
What most people seem to forget is the change of covenants...from the Mosaic to the New. Not all Scripture can be used by you folks as prooftexts. It's Old MacDonald Theology...here a verse, there a verse...every where a verse, verse

I was waiting for you to weigh-in on this one dear friend :)

Let me first say- I did find your Old MacDonald reference amusing- really I did. You have a great sense of humor :)

II Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

But the ultra-dispensational way of looking at doctrine leaves a lot to be desired IMHO. That way of thinking would have me believe that the book of Hebrews was only for the Jews, that James was only for the 12 tribes scattered abroad, or that Peter was only to those scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, or Cappodocia. Or that only Nicodemus deserves the teaching of being "born-again." To me, that is the ultimate "old mcdonald" theology. Kind of like a theological buffet.

Love ya anyways bro!
chopin

edited to fix html (vbcode) tags but not content.

[pilgrimian]

Originally posted by ChopinFan


I was waiting for you to weigh-in on this one dear friend :)

Let me first say- I did find your Old MacDonald reference amusing- really I did. You have a great sense of humor :)

II Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

But the ultra-dispensational way of looking at doctrine leaves a lot to be desired IMHO. That way of thinking would have me believe that the book of Hebrews was only for the Jews, that James was only for the 12 tribes scattered abroad, or that Peter was only to those scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, or Cappodocia. Or that only Nicodemus deserves the teaching of being "born-again." To me, that is the ultimate "old mcdonald" theology. Kind of like a theological buffet.

Love ya anyways bro!
chopin

edited to fix html (vbcode) tags but not content.

I love you too, brother!

But, yet again (though I'm not counting), you class me with a group to which I have no allegiance. I'm not an Ultra-Dispensationalist. I am merely a Dispensationalist.

Here's a good article by Dr. Ironside on what Ultra-Dispensationalism is...and it doesn't define me!;)

Ironside Speaks
(Long time pastor of Moody Memorial Church
in Chicago...way back when!) (http://www.brethrenonline.org/books/ultrad.htm)

Yes, all Scripture is profitable for all that...I certainly wouldn't disagree. But that doesn't negate the fact that it needs to be read in context, and understood literally first. 2 Timothy 3:16 doesn't allow us to take Scripture out of its context.

And Hebrews was written to Jews...this needs to be understood. It doesn't mean that there isn't anything whatsoever applicable to us...but we need to understand who it was written to, and the reason it was written. This helps us understand what is applicable to us...and what is not.

For instance, Peter wrote to Messianic Jews. 1 Peter 2:9 says the recipients are a Holy Nation...is the Church a Holy Nation? No, we're made up of many nations. They had a Holy Priesthood...is the Church a Holy Priesthood? No. Israel had the Levites. We have Christ....He is our priest.

Context is important...that's what I'm saying. And I love 2 Timothy 3:16. I'm not disagreeing with it one iota.

Godspeed,
Your brother in Messiah,
Matthew

[onelamb]

My brothers if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from
death and cover over a multitude of sins.
James 5:20-21

[pilgrimian]

Originally posted by onelamb
My brothers if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from
death and cover over a multitude of sins.
James 5:20-21

1 Corinthians

11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh, eateth and drinketh judgment unto himself, if he discern not the body. 11:30 For this cause many among you are weak and sickly, and not a few sleep.(that is dead) 11:31 But if we discerned ourselves, we should not be judged. 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

Divine discipline. How do you know that the death mentioned above is a spiritual death? You made "brothers" red...so only men can lose salvation, huh?

Goodness, I see that you read into that Scripture whilst not taking 1 Timothy 3;1-7 & Titus 1:5-11 very seriously, Onelamb.

[onelamb]

Just pointing out that there are a few scriptures that you seem to have missed that's all.-

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

The Calvanist stresses rightly God's sovereignty and divine perogitive, while the Arminian stresses, also rightly, man's free will and responsibitly. The two positions, however, must be considered together if they are to be properly understood..

1. Salvation is available to everyone (2 Peter 3:9; John 3:16; Romans 10:11-13

2. Salvation is received and kept by faith (Ephesians 2:8, Philippians 3:9, Hebrews 10:38 1 Peter 1:5, romans 3:28, Galatians 2:20,21)

3. Continued sin will adversely affect the believer's faith (1 John 1:8, 3:8, Romans 3:5-8, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3, Hebrews 3:12:-14, 12:1)

4. The believers salvation is forfeited by rejecting Christ (John 17:12, Hebrews 10:38, 1 Timothy 4:1, 5:12,15, John 5:16, 2 Peter 2:20 Hebrews 10:26, 27, 6:4-6)

[pilgrimian]

Originally posted by onelamb
Just pointing out that there are a few scriptures that you seem to have missed that's all.-

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)


I haven't missed them, brother. And I'm not really a "Calvinist," since I'm not a 5-pointer. Any thoughts on the Lamb's Book of Life? Names cannot be erased...and the names were written before the foundation of the world. Any thoughts on 1 Corinthians 11:30...Ephesians 4:30? I haven't forgotten these Scriptures either.;)

Godspeed,
Your brother in Messiah,
Matthew

[onelamb]

God's word is consistent, but it must be taken as a whole. If you take isolated passages and base your whole theology on them, you will likely be mislead.

There are many verse which state that the believer is safe and secure. I have no desire to try to prove those verses mean anything but what they say. I believe that a believer is as safe and secure as the believer wants to be. I do however, believe that a believer can change their mind and walk away from their faith. I believe as long as we have the breath of life in our lungs we have free will and God will honor our decision.

I do not believe that God wants to take anyone's name out of the Book of Life. I don't believe that God will take your name out of the Book of Life for sinning, as long as you will listen to His voice and repent. God hates sin and I believe that He will convict you of your sin and draw you to repentance, however, I also believe that we can choose not to listen to Him and after a time we have in effect chosen to reject our faith.

People claim I am saying that a believer can lose their salvation. I am not saying that, I am saying that we can choose to reject the faith we once had and walk away from our salvation. I believe this is what the scripture teaches and will attempt to show those passages which I believe support this view. No one should ever worry about their salvation, if you want to stay safe and secure, God will help you, but we should never take our salvation lightly and think we have been forgiven and locked into heaven no matter what we do from this point forward.

(Luke 12:42-46 NIV) The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? [43] It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. [44] I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. [45] But suppose the servant says to himself, 'My master is taking a long time in coming,' and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. [46] The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. Isn't the servant here a Christian? Isn't the master, Jesus Christ? Isn't the place with the unbelievers hell?

(Luke 14:25-35 NIV) Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: [26] "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple. [27] And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. [28] "Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Will he not first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it? [29] For if he lays the foundation and is not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule him, [30] saying, 'This fellow began to build and was not able to finish.' [31] "Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Will he not first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? [32] If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. [33] In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple. [34] "Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? [35] It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile; it is thrown out. "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." Why would Jesus tell people that before they follow Him they should count the cost and be sure they are able to follow through?

What about the parable of the Prodigal son? He was a son to start with, but he chose to leave. He comes back and the father tells his brother that he should be happy because his brother had been lost and was now found. I believe this shows a believer who leaves and later comes to his senses and comes back to God.

(Matthew 18:22-35 NIV) Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times. [23] "Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. [24] As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. [25] Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. [26] "The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' [27] The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. [28] "But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded. [29] "His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.' [30] "But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. [31] When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened. [32] "Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. [33] Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' [34] In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. [35] "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart." Jesus even says that this parable is about a believer. I guess the question then is what does it mean that the Father would turn some of us over to the jailers to be tortured until we pay for our sins? I can't believe that people will be tortured in heaven. Nor do I believe that if God has forgiven our sins past, present and future that He will at some later date call us wicked. God says that when He forgives us He will never remember those sins again.

(Matthew 25:1-13 NIV) "At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. [2] Five of them were foolish and five were wise. [3] The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. [4] The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. [5] The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep. [6] "At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!' [7] "Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. [8] The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.' [9] "'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.' [10] "But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut. [11] "Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!' [12] "But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.' [13] "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour. There are several points in this parable. First, notice that the five foolish virgins lamps were going out, it was not that they could not light them. Meaning that they must have had some Holy Spirit (which most people believe is the oil). Second, Jesus tells believers that they should keep watch since we don't know when He is coming back. Why, if we are saved and nothing can change that, what difference does it make?

(1 John 1:9-10 NIV) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. [10] If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. John under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote this to Christians. Why would God command Christians to confess their sins and then say that He would forgive them if they (the sins) had already been forgive when they were saved?

(Hebrews 10:26-27 NIV) If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, [27] but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Again this was written to Christians. I believe that the knowledge of the truth is salvation.

(1 John 2:15 NIV) Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. This verse shows us that a person cannot love the world and also be a Christian.

(Philemon 1:23-24 NIV) Epaphras, my fellow prisoner in Christ Jesus, sends you greetings. [24] And so do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas and Luke, my fellow workers. We see here that Paul considers Demas a fellow worker, or in other words a Christian.

(2 Timothy 4:9-10 NIV) Do your best to come to me quickly, [10] for Demas, because he loved this world, has deserted me and has gone to Thessalonica. Crescens has gone to Galatia, and Titus to Dalmatia. In this verse Paul says that Demas deserted him because Demas loved the world. This does not prove that Demas was then lost, but it sure shows that a person can walk away.

I believe we see the same principle in the letters to the churches in Revelations. I have heard people try to claim not all these churches were Christian churches, but I can't believe that. Why would Jesus write people and call them churches if they did not know Him? I won't quote all the verses but let me just quote those which I think are important for our discussion.

(Revelation 2:4-7 NIV) Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love. [5] Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. [6] But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. [7] He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. Notice He says if they don't repent He will remove their lampstand. He also says to 'him who overcomes' they will get to eat of the tree of life. That would seem to mean not everyone will, but only those who overcome.

(Revelation 2:14-17 NIV) Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: You have people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin by eating food sacrificed to idols and by committing sexual immorality. [15] Likewise you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. [16] Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. [17] He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it. Again He says to those who overcome...

(Revelation 3:1-6 NIV) "To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. [2] Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. [3] Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. [4] Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. [5] He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. [6] He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. This one I did quote in its entirety. Notice that Jesus says they should strengthen what remains and is about to die. They must have had something to start with, and it must be able to die. He also talks about those who have not soiled their clothes. Since we know that we have all sinned this cannot mean people who have never sinned, it must be people who have not gone back into sin and rejected what they had. Again He says these people (who did not soil their clothes) are the ones who will walk with Him and He will dress in white.

(Revelation 3:14-19 NIV) "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. [15] I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! [16] So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth. [17] You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. [18] I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. [19] Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. Why would Jesus threaten a church of non-believers with being spit out of His mouth? I don't think He would. Lukewarm, means they were once warm, but had lost that warmth.

(Romans 11:17-21 NIV) If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, [18] do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. [19] You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." [20] Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. [21] For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. To be graphed in one must be a believer and if a graphed in branch is a believer then it clearly says they can be broken off again. It clearly says they were broken off because of unbelief and that we will not be spared either.

(John 15:1-6 NIV) "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. [2] He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. [3] You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. [4] Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. [5] "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. [6] If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If Jesus is the vine and we are the branches and we do not remain in Him we become like a branch thrown away and burned in the fire, what could that mean? I believe you have to twist this passage to show anything but judgment for those believers who reject their faith. To me this passage debunks the theology of carnal Christianity. If a believer is living a carnal life the Father will cut them off from the vine which is Jesus Christ. I didn't say that Jesus did.

(Ezekiel 18:23-28 NIV) Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? [24] "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die. [25] "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? [26] If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. [27] But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. [28] Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. My question here is has God changed? How were Old Testament saints saved? Was it the blood of animals, or was it faith in God that He would send a Redeemer to take away their sins? Of course it was by faith, just as we are today. The difference was that their faith was for something in the future and ours is for something in the past.

(2 Peter 1:8-11 NIV) For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. [9] But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. [10] Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, [11] and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. In this passage Peter mentions that the person has forgotten that they were forgiven of their past sins. He does not mention past, present and future, just past. He goes on to say that we should be eager to make our calling and election sure. If we can never give up our salvation then this verse makes no sense. Nor does the statement that if we do these things we will never fall. To make that statement would have to mean it is possible to fall or it would be meaningless.

(Matthew 24:9-13 NIV) "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. [10] At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, [11] and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. [12] Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, [13] but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. Jesus says that many will turn away from the faith, He also says those who stand firm will be saved. What about those who don't stand firm? The obvious interpretation would be that they will not be saved.

(

[onelamb]

Part 2:)

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NIV) Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. [2] By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. Paul says they have believed in vain if they don't hold to the word he preached to them. In the verse before that he says they were saved.

(Hebrews 2:1-3 NIV) We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. [2] For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, [3] how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. People can say this was written to people who had not yet believed, but to me if a person drifts away, it shows they were at one time where they should have been.

(Hebrews 3:12-14 NIV) See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. [13] But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. [14] We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. I think this passage pretty much speaks for itself. We must hold firmly till the end. The author also states that it is possible for someone to turn away.

(Hebrews 6:4-6 NIV) It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, [5] who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, [6] if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. How can a non-believer have tasted of the Holy Spirit? This passage might scare people who have sinned and fallen short and want to come back. Again I don't believe this passage is talking about those people, I think it is speaking about believers who for whatever reason have made a deliberate decision to reject their salvation. Jesus said that no one can come to Him unless the Father draws them. If a person decides after tasting salvation that they no longer want to spend eternity with God, I believe He will allow them to make that decision and there is a point after which they have thrown away their salvation.

(Hebrews 6:11-12 NIV) We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. [12] We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised. If we are once saved always saved, then why do we need to make our hope sure? What happens to those who do become lazy and lose their faith, since those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised?

(Hebrews 10:35-39 NIV) So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. [36] You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. [37] For in just a very little while, "He who is coming will come and will not delay. [38] But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him." [39] But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved. The author says we need to persevere and if we do we will receive what He has promised. Wouldn't it makes sense then that those who do not persevere will not obtain what was promised? Notice that those who shrink back will be destroyed, but those who believe will be saved.

(Hebrews 12:16-17 NIV) See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. [17] Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. He could bring about no change of mind, though he sought the blessing with tears. I believe again that this passage is speaking to and about believers. The author wants us to be sure none of us sells his birthright (salvation) for the pleasures of this world.

(James 4:4 NIV) You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. I think this shows the choice I was talking about. If we choose to reject God and live like the world we become enemies of God.

(James 5:19-20 NIV) My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, [20] remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins. If a brother (believer) wanders from the truth we should try to bring them back to save them.

(1 Corinthians 6:9-10 NIV) Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders [10] nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. This is what people would have us believe a carnal Christian can be like. I think Paul makes it clear if you live like this you will not see heaven.

(Revelation 21:7-8 NIV) He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. [8] But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." He who overcomes! Doesn't look like those who changed their mind and went back to the world's ways i would make it by this passage either.

(Revelation 22:18-19 NIV) I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. [19] And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. It would appear John is speaking to people who have a share in the tree of life to start with.

(2 Peter 2:20-21 NIV) If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. [21] It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. When you look at this verse you have three choices; (1) That it refers to people who heard the gospel but rejected it, did not ever accept Jesus Christ as their savior. I think that is wrong, because it says if they are "again" entangled. To be entangled again, would mean you were free from it at one point. (2) That these people are true Christians and never fall back under judgment. I don't see how that can be true, since there is no way that losing rewards or even chastisement by the Lord would ever be "worse" then not having been saved in the first place. (3) That this refers to people who have truly accepted Christ Jesus as their Savior and then due to their own actions and falling back into a sinful life and thereby eventually totally walking away from their faith are lost. Since those who go to hell will be judged on what they knew and what they did with that knowledge, it would be better if they had never known because their punishment will be much harsher due to the knowledge they had. I think number 3 is the only legitimate interpretation of this passage.

I know that this has gotten very long, but I wanted to make sure that I am not accused of taking one or two verses and making my theological stand out of them. I believe that God is consistent and that He is merciful and that we can trust His word. Having said that, I believe if there are places in the scripture which seem to contradict each other then we need to try to see over all what God is trying to say. On the one hand there are many verses which say that anyone who believes in Jesus Christ will never die. I agree, after all that is what scripture says. However, does that also mean that if and when the person quits believing they will still never die? I don't think so. The Bible says we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, but again, what if we decide we don't want Him?

As I said if you read all of these verses and have to twist them into saying something different then what their common meaning would be then maybe you should reevaluate your doctrine. Why would God clearly state how to be saved in one place and then have vague statements in other places which could not be taken at face value? I don't believe He did.

One last note. I admit I could be wrong, but if I am, what are the consequences? I would be erring on the side of caution. I am saying that we should try to serve God, and live a holy life with His help. That we should attempt to strengthen our faith and not allow it to grow cold. That we should flee from sin so that we are not tangled and drawn away from God.

Now what if I am right? I hesitate to say this but I think it needs to be said. If I am right and we are capable of rejecting the faith that saved us. If we can wallow in sin and refuse to allow the Holy Spirit to draw us back and thereby make a decision to walk away from God. What is the danger? Wouldn't there be a lot of ubelieving believers who will end up in eternal punishment who thought they could live like the world and yet be admitted to heaven?

(1 John 2:24-25 NIV) See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. [25] And this is what he promised us--even eternal life.

[pilgrimian]

You can say I'm twisting Scripture...and you can say I'm viewing one's which are "isolated." However, they are God-breathed Scripture, and must be read in light of the rest of it. I see you don't even consider divine discipline or the Lamb's Book of Life in your two posts. I guess these two parts aren't as "consistent" as the rest of God's Word.

I haven't got the time to respond to your myriad of verses. But I've seen many of them before. Many of them talk about people falling...yet not being forsaken. We all fall, and the Spirit draws us back.

That you said, on another thread, that you don't understand people who believe in Eternal Security, I will tell you. Jesus Christ saves 100%...His blood washes us 100% to make us justified. We are to work on sanctification...but our justification is sure (Romans 5:1-2). I am sealed by the Spirit for the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30).

All that said, I haven't seen any explanation for these verses from someone who believes that believers are not eternally secure. You guys seem to believe we think God will bring people into heaven against their will (if they "changed their mind," which is a hypothetical)....and you would have others believe that I disagree with a great deal of Scripture (all of what you've posted, yet you haven't discussed the few verses I mentioned as you seem to believe the verse I mentioned are not as important as other verses in Scripture). You're working against yourself, since you said that the Word of God is consistent. Also, a number of the parables need to be understood for what they are--not all can apply to us as you want them to--these are words of Christ before Calvary...before the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost...before the New Covenant and Law of Messiah came into being. I'm not saying this changes a lot of the meaning, but they must be understood in this light. You speak of "twisting" Scipture, and those who believe OSnAS usually skew the words of Christ, all be it unintentionally perhaps.

Godspeed,
Your brother in Messiah,
Matthew

[onelamb]

Pardon me, mr pilgrimian, I most certianly do mean BELIEVERS are eternaly secure-you must have misread or misquoted something, cause thats been my point all along-I just don't believe the Lord forces us to remain saved if we wish to depart from the faith.-and yes that is the message you have been putting out.

Romans 5:1-2
That's an easy one-Paul was talking to believers-not those who had departed from the faith.

Ephesians 4:30
we cause the Holy Spirit grief or pain when we ignore his presence, voice or leading. Grieving the Holy Spirit leads to resisting the Holy Spirit (acts 7:51) this in turn leads to putting out the
Spirits' fire (1 Th 5:19) and finally to insulting the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29) This last activity may be close to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, for which there is no forgiveness.


My original thought was that the OSAS (once saved always saved) teachers agreed what salvation is and therefore I had no real disagreement with them. But then I began to understand more and more of what was really being taught and realized that this doctrine has eternal consequences, or in other words does impact a persons salvation.

I want to quote a few comments which show why I am concerned about this doctrine, and for that matter show what the doctrine really is. I am not going to attribute any of these quotes to any person here, but they were all made by well known Christian leaders.

And so, sometimes out of ignorance or whatever it might be, they attempt to gratify and meet those needs the same way they did before they were saved, and therefore, you can't tell a carnal believer from a lost man.

As far as overt behavior is concerned, a carnal believer cannot be distinguished from an unbeliever.

... believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their salvation...

Where is this place represented by the "outer darkness" in Jesus' parables? To be in the "outer darkness" is to be in the kingdom of God but outside the circle of men and women whose faithfulness on this earth earned them a special rank or position of authority.

The above quotes show what I mean. This teaching concerns salvation, because if it is wrong then people who think they are saved may well be on their way to eternal punishment.

We need to view our doctrine through the filter of Scripture, not the other way around; viewing Scripture through the filter of our doctrine. One way we will always be right the other way we will always be in danger of being mistaken.

In brief; I believe our salvation is a relationship with God through faith in Jesus Christ. I believe we all stumble at times and sin. I also believe that when we sin the Holy Spirit convicts us and draws us back to a closer walk. If we confess our sin we repair our relationship and everything is okay, but if we refuse to repent and confess and continue to sin our relationship will deteriorate, at some point we grow cold and our relationship is ruined. Paul called this turning from the faith, shipwrecked faith, etc... Paul even said if we don't hold fast then we have believed in vain.

[dusty]

Before it can be determined what abandoning "the faith" is, wouldn't what the faith "is" need to first be determined?

What is man to have faith in to be saved? How do we test to see if we are in "the faith"? Is it not by determining whether we have believed that the message of the gospel of reconciliation and the record that God gave of His Son is true...

...Therefore placing faith in the work and Person of Christ -- that He died once for all, in our place for our punishment that was justly due us, and He rose from the dead and gives us His eternal resurrected Life by receiving Him?

Isn't this what "the faith" is? Isn't this what we are to test ourselves about to see if we are in the faith?

Wouldn't the departing from the faith, then, actually be NOT believing this, instead of the opposite?


:)

[pilgrimian]

Originally posted by dusty
Before it can be determined what abandoning "the faith" is, wouldn't what the faith "is" need to first be determined?

What is man to have faith in to be saved? How do we test to see if we are in "the faith"? Is it not by determining whether we have believed that the message of the gospel of reconciliation and the record that God gave of His Son is true...

...Therefore placing faith in the work and Person of Christ -- that He died once for all, in our place for our punishment that was justly due us, and He rose from the dead and gives us His eternal resurrected Life by receiving Him?

Isn't this what "the faith" is? Isn't this what we are to test ourselves about to see if we are in the faith?

Wouldn't the departing from the faith, then, actually be NOT believing this, instead of the opposite?

:)

Wow, Dusty! I appreciate your critical thinking. Very astute!

Not sure how to take your "Mr. Pilgrimian," Onelamb. If you're upset with me...well, I was asking a simple question as to why you hadn't responded to the Scripture I'd brought up earlier. But if you were irked, I would figure you'd bring it up and be open with me. Causing folks to be irked or upset isn't my aim.

It's also not my aim to see Scripture through the filter of Eternal Security. Doesn't everything we believe have eternal consequences of some sort? I think so.

I'm in agreement with part of you post, Onelamb...however I think your bit here is suspect:

This last activity may be close to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, for which there is no forgiveness.

Please don't take this the wrong way. But this is a good example of Christ's words being taken out of their context for present-day application...or misapplication. It's why understanding everything in its context is so important.

"When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise."

--Dr. David L. Cooper, late director of the Biblical Research Society

The "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" is a very specific sin -- and I know this is meandering some from the original purpose of this thread, and I'm sorry -- but it was committed by the Jewish leaders of Christ's day when they denied His Messiahship in Matthew 12. Note how many times Christ says "this generation."

Godspeed,
Your brother in Messiah,
Matthew

[onelamb]

You have cut so many holes in scripture that your version should come with a pair of scissors.

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you . And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age." Matthew 28:18-20

[pilgrimian]

Originally posted by onelamb
You have cut so many holes in scripture that your version should come with a pair of scissors.

:nono :tsk :nono

[B]"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey [B]everything that I have commanded you . And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age." Matthew 28:18-20

I haven't cut any holes in Scripture, and your accusation is really quite unfounded and petty.

I see you didn't reply to your misuse of the the "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit."

Also, you must've used scissors on 1 Corinthians 11:30...since you still haven't responded to that, but continue to bring up the same old verses.

Godspeed,
Your brother in Messiah,
Matthew

[onelamb]

When Jesus told the pharasees to beware the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit-they were taking the works of Jesus and saying He got his power from satan. -. You want every scripture you post to be interpreted for you, yet you ignore those you call "same old scriptures"

That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep..
1 Corinthians 11:30
HUH???
In this passage "fallen asleep" is death-not separation from Christ-the words fallen asleep when used in the NT is when someone dies-but is not separated from Christ-in contrast the word "death" in most cases-is used to indicate separation from Christ for eternity.


My brothers if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from
death and cover over a multitude of sins.
James 5:20-21

And here in Hebrews
See to it brothers, that none of you has a sinful and unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.
Hebrews 3:12

The word, brothers, is used-not withstanding your flippant remark above, this shows that he was talking to believers.

When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise."

--Dr. David L. Cooper, late director of the Biblical Research Society

[pilgrimian]

Originally posted by onelamb
When Jesus told the pharasees to beware the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit-they were taking the works of Jesus and saying He got his power from satan. -. You want every scripture you post to be interpreted for you, yet you ignore those you call "same old scriptures"

I know what the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was...that which it is...yes, I understand this quite well. Thank you.

And yes, they are the "same old Scriptures" you cite because they've been discussed many times (and I've responded to them individually before...that's why they're the "same old Scriptures"). Either in this thread, or previously in the myriad of Eternal Security vs. OSnAS these Scriptures have been discussed. I don't need to have them interpreted for me...thanks, though. I know what they mean already. It is the 1 Corinthians 11:30 passage that you've never dealt with...you haven't ever discussed Divine Discipline as it relates to God's own.

That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep..
1 Corinthians 11:30
HUH???
In this passage "fallen asleep" is death-not separation from Christ-the words fallen asleep when used in the NT is when someone dies-but is not separated from Christ-in contrast the word "death" in most cases-is used to indicate separation from Christ for eternity.

Thanks, I already knew the meaning of the verse. How do you know that the other verses don't coincide with this Scripture? You ought to consider physical death and spiritual death with each Scripture you enjoy citing.

My brothers if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from
death and cover over a multitude of sins.
James 5:20-21

You know this is spiritual death not physical death? Expound, please.

And here in Hebrews
See to it brothers, that none of you has a sinful and unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.
Hebrews 3:12

You seem to be sure this passage agrees with your viewpoint. Perhaps you could discuss the context...the recipients...how this goes hand in hand with what the warnings to these Hebrews had to do with, please.

The word, brothers, is used-not withstanding your flippant remark above, this shows that he was talking to believers.

Flippant? Perhaps you could dissect and explain just why my above statement (and I know not specifically what you're referring to) is "flippant," please. I am only stressing good hermeneutics. It's really an invaluable asset to reading the Word.

When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise."

--Dr. David L. Cooper, late director of the Biblical Research Society

Ah-ha! Good hermeneutics! God bless Dr. Cooper! What a great teacher of theology, and a Zionist at heart!

Godspeed,
Your brother in Messiah,
Matthew

[onelamb]

Hebrews-Matthew Henry-
the principal design seems to be, to bring the converted Hebrews forward in the knowledge of the gospel, and thus to establish them in the Christian faith, and to prevent their turning from it, against which they are earnestly warned.

Let us beware of trusting to outward privileges or professions, and pray to be numbered with the true believers who enter heaven, when all others fail because of unbelief.

[pilgrimian]

Originally posted by onelamb
Hebrews-Matthew Henry-
the principal design seems to be, to bring the converted Hebrews forward in the knowledge of the gospel, and thus to establish them in the Christian faith, and to prevent their turning from it, against which they are earnestly warned.

Let us beware of trusting to outward privileges or professions, and pray to be numbered with the true believers who enter heaven, when all others fail because of unbelief.

Matthew Henry has some worthwhile things to say about Scripture...but I'm not particularly sure he had a good hold on what Hebrews is all about. I think we have to dig deeper on this one.

[onelamb]

Let's keep on searching till we find a commentator that agrees with you!

:frusty

Better yet, let the Word speak for itself and let the Holy Spirit be our teacher.

[pilgrimian]

When I have some more time I'll be happy to go get my commentary by Dr. Fruchtenbaum concerning the epistle of Hebrews. As he states the book was written to Messianic Jews who were experiencing quite a bit of harrassment by their orthodox brethren (who didn't believe in Christ). The group had considered leaving the fold and basically believing "under wraps," so that they wouldn't receive the treatment inflicted by their unbelieving neighbors. This is a time when Messianics were still attending synagogue or temple with the unbelieving groups. Many laws were later put together to further push these believers out of the Judaic circles.

Part of the warning in Hebrews is of the upcoming destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. This has to do with the passages talking about being "outside the camp," as Christ was crucified "outside of Jerusalem." Off the top of my head I can't recall the passage. But it was recorded that these Hebrews did heed the warning of the epistle, and that no Messianic Jews were killed in A.D. 70's destruction...they were actually able to leave Jerusalem around A.D. 68 and migrated to Pella, where they safely lived for some years to come.

More from that commentary later when I have the time.

Godspeed,
Your brother in Messiah,
Matthew

[mephib]

I'm thankful my salvation doesn't depend upon my performance or my doubting, or my unfaithfulness. If it did, I would be lost. Because I have bouts of unfaithfulness, and doubting, and unbelief. But I don't keep score on my kids, and my Father doesn't keep score on me. "Love keeps no accounts."

And if salvation was actually a performance or faithfulness test, and I wasn't lost because I had been so faithful, then I would be so proud that my faithfulness had saved me. And I would get all the glory.

Let's be clear. That is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is religion.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ says that the Father changes us by His power when we repent. He births us. And our salvation is determined by our identity, who we are, not what we did for Him today, or how much faithfulness we showed last week. That sounds more like the survival of the fittest. We are His family. We go to be with our Father and our God, just as Christ told Mary Magdalene.

If a person doesn't understand what happens at salvation, that salvation is the work of the Father, that He himself permanently changes our inner nature once we repent and turn our back on the old man (See Romans 6; Eph. 1, etc. ), then he will always think that since he earned it, he can lose it. And if he keeps it he gets the credit. That is Phariseeism, religion, and judgmentalism. Another gospel.

Can a person who is saved be deceived by the world and live out from his flesh? Of course. Is he in danger thereby of losing his identity, of being unborn? Of course not. The question is rhetorical.

I can forget my name given at my birth, when my identity as the son of my parents was established, and instead call myself Elvis Pressley rather than my real name; but my failure to remember or even believe that I am someone different from who I was born, does not make me different. It simply means I am very confused and deceived.

A person who consistently lives contrary to his new nature, however, is in danger of being called home early as Scripture indicates. If I live out from the flesh, I put myself under the law. I have cut myself off from grace as Galatians says. But I haven't by my conduct undone what the Father did to my inner man. It is beyond my power to change my spirit, my inner man. If I could have, I could have saved myself, and Christ and my joinder to Him would be irrelevant and unnecessary in the first place.

And what about all the commands Christ uttered in the New Testament? Well, what was the purpose of any command uttered by God? We know from Paul that the purpose was to drive home to us our wretchedness and inability to perform up to standard, and therefore to drive us to Christ, back to the Treee of Life, in whom are all the riches of life and godliness. The riches of life and godliness aren't in me, they are in Christ and to be found there. And if I am in Christ, I am one Spirit with Him (1 Cor. 6:17), and nothing shall snatch me out of His hand.

In sum, I am only responsible for keeping my salvation if my obtaining it in the first place was dependent on my performance. It is not.

[ChopinFan]

Mephib,

Let me ask you a few simple questions:

How did you become a Christian? Were you forced into submission, or did you repent of your sins and put your faith/trust in Christ?

If the latter is true, then what part did you play in the equation? Yes, I'll bet we both agree that it was God who first loved us, and drew us to Him, but what if you had not responded or accepted that call?

I'm not questioning your salvation, so please don't take it that way-I'm just trying to show the error in this line of thinking that we have no free-will or responsiblity where the salvation covenant is concerned.

:):

[onelamb]

Moments of doubt or unfaithfulness isn't what we're talking about when we say we believe the scirpture teaches "security of the believer"-.

Jesus told a parable about another son who left the family. We know it as the Prodigal Son parable. (Luke 15:11-32 NIV) 11 Jesus continued: "There was a man who had two sons. 12 The younger one said to his father, 'Father, give me my share of the estate.' So he divided his property between them.
13 "Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14 After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16 He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.
17 "When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.' 20 So he got up and went to his father.
"But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arm