Your Inner Conflicts – Old and New Natures [Archive]

Timothy

April 15th, 2003, 12:10 AM

THIS IS SEGMENT/CHAPTER 1

Chapter 1
Your Inner Conflicts

Why is this? Why, oh why, oh why?

Every thinking Christian, at one time or another, agonizes with this question; usually in the privacy of his mind. The lack of an answer has caused anxiety, doubt, insecurity, disillusionment and in some cases, suicide.

This is the way Satan wants it. He does not want Christians to know there is a satisfying answer to the question. It is his delight to rob the believer to the uninhibited joy the Lord wants to provide.

Satan does it by offering believers subtle options instead of Spirit-filled actions. Christians fall for their trickery and run hither, thither and yon seeking help and finding very little. As time goes on their lack of knowledge causes them to sink into a monotonous, dull kind of Christianity with no life, no joy and no excitement.

Thoreau’s description of the human race fits many Christians. He said, “The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.”

Yes, every Christian is faced with inner conflict but it is not so that he must endure defeat, for there is a Bible doctrine which not only offers knowledge of why we do things, but also offers a joyful solution to the problem. The problem reaches Christians from all walks of life and until the truth is known they suffer.

A superintendent of a rescue mission in the skid row section of one of our large cities was standing on a street corner inviting men to come in for the evening service. An alcoholic, very drunk, made some vile comments about the Lord Jesus Christ. The superintendent, in describing the experience said:

“I was used to hearing things like that, but they had not bothered me. That night was different. I believe now that it was a frontal attack from Satan using this man as a weapon.

“The man told me that he had been raised in a Christian home and that once he had believed much as I believed. During his college years he began to think, and it wasn’t long before he came to the conclusion that Christianity was not valid and that Christ was nothing more than a legendary character, or, at best, a confused man with illusions of grandeur.”

The superintendent went on with his story. “He made a series of most revolting, derogatory remarks about Christ.

“Later that evening when I was speaking to the men who were at the mission a sudden thought exploded in my mind. ‘What if this unbeliever’s evaluation of Christianity were accurate? What if Christ were a legend or a fraud? What proof could I offer to counteract his statements: faith with no evidence?’

“In that fraction of a moment the faith which I had enjoyed for so many years seemed to be gone. It began a period of my life of utter misery. Vicious questions tormented me. Where did I come from? What was the purpose of my life? Where was I going?

“I begged God for some reality of Christ; some little acknowledgement from God that He knew I existed and needed help. Nothing happened. The statements made by a drunken man continued to hammer my intellect until I was on the brink of insanity.

“From then on I didn’t speak at the mission. I brought others in to speak and I listened to them for some hope, but found none. I began a campaign of visiting pastors and Christian leaders, describing my situation, but telling them I was asking on behalf of someone who had come to the mission. As I look back now, it was astonishing that I received no help at all in my search. More than once in the next six months I encountered Christian leaders who were going through the same doubts, but in every case they tried to cover it up.

“I stopped reading my Bible. I stopped praying. My family life disintegrated and I began to withdraw more and more.

“Finally I decided to commit suicide. I planned to make it look as though an accident had taken place. I took out extra insurance on myself to support my wife and children after I was gone. I chose the place and time.

“When the day came I had a sense of relief that soon I would be out of my misery. It’s odd that I didn’t think of going to Heaven or Hell. I just thought of escape.

“As I drew closer to the appointed place my turbulent mind cried out to God for help. The answer I received may seem like an over-simplification, but it is the way it was. Romans 8:37-39 filled my mind. My dulled senses were able to sort out a truth I apparently had not seen before; I had separated myself from God. God had not separated Himself from me. He never had and He never would.

“The effect of the verses was not enough to give me peace, but it deterred the suicide attempt.

“Shortly after that another verse reached my confused mind.

“…..faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.” (Romans 10:17) I wanted faith. I had looked for the source of faith from men, and had not found it. I had begged God to answer my prayers, but what had I expected him to do? Are not the answers found in what He has to say to us through the Scriptures?

“It struck me that for almost all of my life my Bible study had simply been to prepare messages for others. I could not remember ever studying the Bible for my own good.

“That was the day I became a student of the Bible, and within a week the Holy Spirit was teaching me the doctrine of the two natures which I had never known before. I understood that the confusion which had reigned in my life stemmed from my old nature which had taken over my life. The more I learned about the doctrine the more I enjoyed the Lord. The more I enjoyed the Lord, the more I learned about the doctrine.

“The concept of my ministry changed. I became a compulsive advocate of telling others about the two natures.”

This is basically true of all Christians who discover the doctrine of the two natures.

The fundamental verse of our study is found in John 3:6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.”

The word, ‘flesh,’ is a comprehensive word and includes all that a man is in his natural birth: his intellect, his emotions and his physical life. The component parts which make up the man are corrupt, for the stream of humanity became polluted as its source when Adam and Even introduced death by sin. No one escapes this pollution, for all mankind traces its heritage back to Adam. This background accounts for the evil that each generation encounters.

Man, in his natural state, knows something is wrong and he tries to do something about it. His most earnest efforts end in defeat.

A few years ago one of the most promising fields was psychiatry, but today psychiatrists themselves are questioning their science. Recently a psychiatrist wrote a book and he said, in essence, “We have been attempting to develop a field of scientific research which, at best, is unproven. If success is an indication of the validity of psychiatry, it may be that we will have to take a second look at ourselves, for the positive are meager. We have clothed our analyses in vague, non-understandable terms, and to further cast shadows on the profession, we find that the rate of suicides among psychiatrists is greater than in any other field.”

Through the ages great thinkers, without Christ, have gone to their graves with no solutions to the problems they encountered. The flesh nature has no answers for Satan, the prince of the power of the air, and the god of this age, gives no answers. He has manipulated man into thinking that the solutions can be found without any supernatural source of information. Each man who speaks on the subject, following this premise, adds more confusion, and each generation blunders on; for that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and remains flesh.

God has offered an alternative and this alternative is the only solution for escapes from the inheritance of the flesh.

God has said that not only is that which is born of the flesh, flesh; but that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. The flesh nature cannot be improved, so God in His sovereignty has arranged for a painless death for the flesh nature.

“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.” (Romans 6:6)

“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, Who loved me, and gave Himself for me.” (Galatians 2:20)

“For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.” (Colossians 3:2)

This takes place when a person receives Jesus Christ as has saviour. The Lord instantly identifies that person with the death of Jesus Christ. A spiritual birth from above takes place simultaneously. The death of the old sin nature does not mean that the flesh becomes unconscious or annihilated, but it does mean that from that point on God looks at that person only in his spiritual essence.

A problem is encountered at salvation and this is where most Christians become confused. The flesh nature is dead to God, but very much alive to the world. The spirit nature is dead to the world, but very much alive to God. This sets into action two competitive forces within the new born Christian: one born of the flesh, and the other born of the Holy Spirit. The person thus becomes a battlefield, and the two natures war against each other, seeking to dominate the mind, the emotions and the body.

This accounts for the constant conflict in the believer. The old nature: ego-centric, selfish, linked to the world, wants control of the individual for fleshy gratification. The new nature: spiritual, related to Christ and eternal, wants to control of the individual to produce eternal values. It is a running battle and neither the old nature or the new nature will surrender, for, as we read in Galatians 5:17, “The flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh: (the word, ‘lusteth,’ means craven, hungry to dominate, thirsty to kill) and these are contrary the one to the other; so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.”

Few believers understand the intensity of this warfare, and since most do not understand what is going on they encounter what has been called, “mountaintop experiences,” or they are plunged into what are called, “death valley experiences.” The death valley experiences occur when the old nature, greedy for personal gratifications and fed by the lust of the eye, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life, dominates the spiritual nature.

The old nature, trained by Satan from the time of birth, uses guerilla tactics in the believer’s life.

A Christian, under much stress, illustrated this action of the old nature. He said, “We were on vacation. We traveled about six hundred miles that day. Our two children had been restless. We had a flat tire. We had also lost an hour because we had to take a detour. We had made reservations in a motel but when we arrived much later than we had expected to we learned the manager of the motel had given the room to another family. The other motels in the area were also filled.

“The children were squabbling. My wife said, ‘I told you you should have called when we knew we were going to be late.’

“That did it. My temper exploded: a temper which had been under control for fifteen years. I can’t believe some of the things I said, but I said them. Family unity dissolved. My children, afraid of me, attached themselves in a very obvious way to my wife. My wife counteracted my temper by refusing to talk to me.

“We slept in the car for a few hours, or tried to, and then started the long trip home. That was two weeks ago. Things are getting worse.

“The thing I can’t understand is how, as a Christian, a member of the church board, and a Sunday school teacher, I could so quickly revert to non-Christian attitudes and actions. I used words I never used before. I threatened. I screamed. I also said that I wished my kids had never been born.”

Satan waited for the ideal moment to support this man in his old nature and give it strength. He infused the old nature with anger and pride, and without warning the new nature was completely overwhelmed. The family members, in turn, had their old natures stimulated and the love bond of marriage became hate.

How could a problem like this be solved? It wasn’t too difficult when the family was brought together under pastoral care, and the doctrine of the two natures was presented and understood.

We are told Galatians 4:29 that the flesh nature will always persecute the spiritual nature as Ishmael persecuted Isaac. The believer should understand that this flesh nature and spiritual nature dwell in the structure of his mind, his emotions and his body. He should realize the conflict is personal and goes on twenty-four hours a day and will go on until the rapture, or the departure of the Christian by death. The old nature will never surrender in any situation. The old nature will intimidate and manipulate until he gets his way.

The Apostle Paul was very much aware of his old nature and he said, as led by the Holy Spirit, “Oh, wretched man that I am!” (Romans 7:24)

A girl at a Bible Conference illustrated this by saying, “I need help. Everything is falling apart, and I thought everything would be so perfect. I told the Lord I wanted to work at a Bible Conference this summer, and here I am at one of the greatest ones in the country. I told the Lord I wanted to work with children, and I have a cabin with twelve girls. I told the Lord I wanted to meet a Christian boy I could pal around with this summer and I did. I needed some money for college in the fall and I’m getting twice as much as I expected.

“But suddenly everything is wrong. The boy broke up with me. I can’t handle the kids in my cabin. I’m not interested in reading my Bible. I had a dream last night that was so vile I don’t like to think about it. I’m critical. I’m complaining. I had an argument with the camp director….” She paused and then went on, “I’m supposed to love those kids and I hate them. My own worst enemy is me.”

And that is the truth. Our own worst enemy is the old nature which dwells within us. We will see more of the characteristics of this enemy when we study the titles God has given to him in the next chapter.

Someone, we don’t know who, wrote a most interesting rhyme all believer’s should memorize:

Two natures beat within my breast.
One is foul, the other blest.
The one I love – the one I hate
The one I feed will dominate.

Every Christian, and may we repeat this emphatically, every Christian encounters these skirmishes in the battleground of his being. The old nature, stimulated by its relationship to the world, attacks in tens of thousands of different ways to upset the tranquility and joy of Christianity.

The solution to the problem is for the spiritual nature of the believer to take deliberate action in gaining strength from the Word of God.

“….put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.” (Romans 13:14)

Since the Word of God was authored by the Holy Spirit, it follows that eating the Word and enjoying His nine individual flavors for the soul as offered: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance will result in the control of the old nature.

Thank God that the old nature is dead to the believer, but this dead enemy is a dangerous one and he should be kept in the coffin and not be permitted to expose himself and cause shame in the Christian’s life.

evangelyn

April 15th, 2003, 03:40 PM

cool...bump.

Ponderin

April 15th, 2003, 04:08 PM

Someone, we don’t know who, wrote a most interesting rhyme all believer’s should memorize:

Two natures beat within my breast.
One is foul, the other blest.
The one I love – the one I hate
The one I feed will dominate.

I will check tonight. The quote is in the book Growing Strong in the Seasons of Life, I think,as well as others . . . I have the page folded down. Certainly, the race is against ourselves.

:)

spirit

April 15th, 2003, 04:11 PM

Awesome, thanks for posting this.

It was a blessing. :)

Ponderin

April 15th, 2003, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by Ponderin
Someone, we don’t know who, wrote a most interesting rhyme all believer’s should memorize:

Two natures beat within my breast.
One is foul, the other blest.
The one I love – the one I hate
The one I feed will dominate.

I will check tonight. The quote is in the book Growing Strong in the Seasons of Life, I think,as well as others . . . I have the page folded down. Certainly, the race is against ourselves.

:)

Ah! No, maybe it is the book, God in You.

Neways, I'll check L8R . . .

:)

Gods Trombone

April 15th, 2003, 07:14 PM

Timothy,

Thanks for the material. It seems to be well in line with Romans.

:)

Ibelong2Him

April 15th, 2003, 07:42 PM

THANK YOU for posting this!

We have been studying the book of Galatians in Sunday School, and I've been thinking alot about the war of the spirit and the flesh lately.

I find that the more I learn about the subject, the easier it is to defeat the flesh. Right in line with that little poem...

:)

Ponderin

April 16th, 2003, 08:23 AM

I love learning stuff I forgot again and again! Next time I forget I hope someone reminds me.

:D

It was the book God in You by Dr. David Jeremiah! Walking in the Spirit, An Everyday Dependance on God. Chapter 7 p. 144 and from the notes . . .

<drum roll>

One of Becky's favorites?

There is nothing else listed in the notes, sept this:

1. A. W. Tozier, That Incredible Christian (Harrisburg Penn.: Christian publications, Inc. 1964) pharaphrased from introduction, 11-13.

Hmmm

carmen

April 16th, 2003, 08:53 AM

Great post. This kind of study is really needed today, IMHO. I have found that sometimes there is a tendency to think that a "good" Christian doesn't have to deal with hard sin issues in their lives (especially among other Christians--which I really don't get :confused). Maybe it's because we can be all too easily embarassed about revealing our faults and flaws to other Christians. But the thing is, many of us DO deal with sin, and struggle and struggle with overcoming it, trying too often to go it alone because we don't want to ruin others' perception of us.

Sometimes it's good to remember that we all have these two natures, if only to remind ourselves that sin is there, crouching and waiting to pouce at the first weakness.

rs41

April 16th, 2003, 08:10 PM

Bring on the next installment.:)

tuco22

April 16th, 2003, 09:19 PM

Good post, Timothy. :D

Arabesque

April 16th, 2003, 11:11 PM

I had just posted about little issues I had experienced recently, and Ruckus pointed me in the direction of this thread.

It definitely helped me and I can't wait to read more.

As far as you wondering if anyone might be interested in these posts, I think you now have an "enraptured" audience. (pun intended).

:lol

Please.....keep posting them!!

Peasant

April 16th, 2003, 11:32 PM

Thanks for posting this, I was thinking upon this very issue today and your post was a balm to my soul.

I can't wait to read the next installment!:D

aboverubies

April 17th, 2003, 12:18 AM

Originally posted by Timothy

The solution to the problem is for the spiritual nature of the believer to take deliberate action in gaining strength from the Word of God.

“….put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.” (Romans 13:14)

Amen ... thank you for this timely encouragement. :)

Timothy

April 17th, 2003, 09:49 AM

I'll post the next installment today. Just for clarificiation, I don't want you to think that I'm just "throwing" it out here. I'm reading it for the ump-teenth time.

As it was originally a radio broadcast, it doesn't have as many scriptural references as I would prefer. Here are some notes that I have jotted down:

When he mentioned "lack of knowledge" in Chapter/Session 1, I thought of the following verses:

Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Colossians 1:9 "For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding"

The "new man" (nature) is renewed in knowledge:

Colossians 3:10 "And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him."

Knowledge is the issue as the battlefield is for our mind:

II Corinthians 10:5 "Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ"

When he mentioned the person who "looked for the source of faith in men, these verses are good references:

I Corinthians 2:5 "That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God"

I Corinthians 3:21 "Therefore let no man glory in men..."

When he mentioned that "man knows something is wrong and tries to do something about it," these verses came to mind.

The law works wrath because we can never fulfill it. Ever notice that when Christians put themselves back under the law, they can be mean, nasty, backbiting, angry people?

Romans 4:15 "Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression."

If you "try," you fail. If you focus on your actions (the outside, the natural man), you will fail. We need to focus on our thoughts, our spirit, the new man (the inside). The new man "forgets" about the law, as the new man knows that actions follow thought.

Galatians 5:18 "But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."

When he mentioned that thethe flesh nature cannot be improved, I thought of:

Romans 7:18 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."

Our whole focus should be on the spirit, not the flesh:

Romans 1:9 "For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers"

Romans 8:5-7 "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

When Paul is taking "death" above, he is talking about spiritual death.

Timothy

April 17th, 2003, 10:32 AM

This is segment/chapter 2, Part A (the character limit on the board forces splitting it)

Our greatest fears come from what we do not understand. Every Christian experiences, from time to time, the realization that he is capable of seeing, hearing or saying something evil, and often enjoying that which he knows to be contrary to the will of God.

When a young or unindoctrinated believer reverts to the old life and impulsively falls into some sin trap, serious problems will arise. Satan, in his subtle way, inserts negative options, none of which offer solutions. In the early days of their Christian experience few people escape thinking such thoughts as, “Have I really received Jesus Christ as my Saviour?” “How can God love me after what I have done?” “I’ll have to try harder, “ or, “I’ll have to get saved again.”

All of these thoughts produce anxiety.

The more sincere and earnest the person is, the more bleak the situation becomes. There are people who flounder over a period of many years before they have any sense of security in Christ. When they hear invitations given for salvation or dedication they respond repeatedly, but in spite of their sincerity they stumble on with little satisfaction, riding on the waves of uncertainty which sweep over them repeatedly.

It is only when the believer is indoctrinated with the knowledge of the two natures that he can cope with this insecurity. Experienced Christians, even with the knowledge of the two natures, may find themselves wallowing in the same pattern.

Peter describes this act of reverting to the old nature to be, “like a dog returning to his own vomit.” (II Peter 2:22) That is not a pretty picture, but it is an illustration of the depravity of the old nature. Some give up in despair and live shallow Christian lives, plagued constantly by the lust of the old nature. This is not necessary, because the situation is not hopeless.

The Lord has supplied us adequately with information on the doctrine of the two natures which will enable the believer to understand himself and the conflict he encounters in his daily life. The intelligent believer, when he does become enmeshed with sin, will remember that the Lord said that we can be, “renewed in the inner man day by day,” (II Corinthians 4:16) and that we can, “forget the things which are behind.” (Phillippians 3:14)

Not only does the doctrine solve the problems of why the believer reverts to the character of the old nature, it also enables the believer to come to the place where he can cope with the situation instantly and actually enjoy winning the battle over his old nature. He will come to understand that there are going to be moments when his old nature will dominate and defeat, but he will know that the situation is but temporary and that victory is absolute.

The important thing is to understand the character of the old nature. This is done by studying the titles God gives to it.

We will discuss four of them in this chapter and each will give us insight into a different facet of what and who we are.

THE FLESH

The word, “flesh,” is used repeatedly by the Lord. Sometimes it is used simply to describe meat, as of an animal or bird. More often it is used to describe man in his unsaved condition. This involves man’s mind, emotions and body. When man is born into this world he brings with him all the pollution that has spilled into the human race since the time of Adam’s fall. When he is born he begins to die, for Adam gave death to the human race; both physical and spiritual.

The world does not see this flesh nature as God sees it. Religion and philosophy have insisted that the flesh is not corrupt; that it is good. Some claim that it also possesses a kinship with the divine, but this is not so in the light of the revelation of the Bible.

Christ states very simply that the flesh profits nothing (John 6:63). That is a hard fact to accept, for our old natures reject such an evaluation and rebel against any criticism. Pride is the major flaw in the old nature. The old nature has great reluctance to admit that he is ever wrong. Man clings to the idea that he is basically good. He is quick to point out his human virtues.

A heavy snowfall made travel impossible. Homes were opened to strangers and all sorts of heroic deeds were reported. A radio announcer jumped upon the opportunity to substantiate his idea that all men are good. “A storm like this brings out the decency of man to his fellowman,” he said. “This is religion in its noblest effort.” He sounded much like a man who had been searching for something good in the human race and at last had found it. It is true that the flesh will act for self-preservation and mutual self-help, but at best, the human good that is done is only temporary and the profit is not the Lord’s.

Paul, in writing to the people at Rome, said, “I know that in me, that is my flesh, dwelleth no good thing.” (Romans 7:18) Paul had come to the conclusion that not only were the actions of his flesh no good, but the flesh itself on its natural plane was corrupt and incapable of producing good.

The flesh nature is very religious and would like to put on a good show, and often it does; then pats itself on the back for what it sees as its own goodness. Many religions of the world, based on humanistic philosophies, demonstrate sacrificial elements which call attentions to the virtues of the individual. There is no evil that is done so well as that which stems from the old flesh nature in demonstrating false humility with obedience to man-made religions.

But, regardless of man’s efforts, Paul writes to the church at Rome, “So then, they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” (Romans 8:8)

Why can’t man please God? The answer is obvious. As far as God is concerned sinful man is dead in trespasses and sins. Man, in his unregenerate state has walked according to the course of this world, and has been subjected, not to God, but to the prince of the power of the air. A physically dead man is of no value to humanity. A spiritually dead man is of no value to God.

But God does offer a way out of death: He offers a new birth; a birth from above, as a gift – a gift of a Person, Jesus Christ.

When the gift of Christ is accepted, God sees the old nature nailed to the Cross and in Christ God sees the flesh as dead. In the same instant God gives that person an eternal, spiritual life. It is at this time that the conflict between the spiritual and the flesh begins in that person’s life.

Paul when writing to the church at Philippi, evaluated his former fleshly, religious position. For some thirty years he had been proud of his heritage, but on the road to Damascus he suffered a wonderful death; the death of his old nature, and from then on, as he puts it in Philippians 3:3, he had “no confidence in the flesh.” That is what an intelligent, indoctrinated Christian ought to believe. The glory of life is in Christ, and the flesh nature and all that it produces is only ego-centric, selfish and temporary.

THE OUTWARD MAN

The old nature affects the physical part of man. Another title of the old nature is found in II Corinthians 4:16. Here were are told that, “the outward man perishes.” This is evident, for observation tells us that time takes its toll on everyone. With age comes the deterioration of the body and from the moment we are born we begin to perish because the sin of the old nature is in us and age and death are the result of sin.

Soon we find Solomon’s description of the flesh coming true; the eyes get dim, the ears cease to function, the mind falters, legs and hands tremble and finally, death takes its prey.

This procedure takes place regardless of what kind of life a person leads. By good health practices perhaps a few years may be added, but the inevitable finally comes. In this respect the outward man of the believer is no different than the believer.

Paul graphically describes the believer’s problem with his outward man. “We ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves, groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, we agonize with the problem.

It is interesting to notice in II Corinthians 12:7-8 that the Apostle Paul hurt so much he called upon the Lord three times to help him. The Lord did not correct the situation, but did tell him that in his new nature he had the solution to the problem, for the Lord said, “My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.” (Verse 9)

Paul thus shifted his viewpoint from the old nature to the new nature and said, “I rather glory in my infirmities, “ (Verse 9) and again, “I take pleasure in my infirmities,” (Verse 10)

Now that is hard to say, unless the person knows the power of the new nature in an experimental way. When he does, he can cope with physical problems.

The believer must recognize that the body which he possessed before he received Christ as Saviour, is the same body which he has at the present time. So every problem that the outward man has is brought over into the Christian’s life.

Our bodies are doomed, and their infirmities will increase with time and perish progressively until either death takes us, or until Christ comes. Then, and only then, shall we be delivered from the old nature’s influence on the outward man. The victory lies in recognizing the new nature to be eternal and the problems encountered in this life will pass away.

CONTINUED

Timothy

April 17th, 2003, 10:33 AM

THE CARNAL MIND

The old nature affects the intellect of man.

The influence of the old nature on the unregenerate mind is devastating. The unsaved man is diametrically and diabolically set against God. The Lord said, “My thoughts are not your thoughts.” (Isaiah 55:8) And in another place we read, “The Lord knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity.” (Psalm 94:11)

The world appreciates the value of the mind of man and attempts to develop it to the highest level. Yet, with all the effort that man has made to cultivate his mind, we find that he fails to solve basic problems. Mankind cannot handle himself. In spite of all the educational efforts, we find society failing to produce man’s greatest desires.

Man wants peace but wages war.
Man wants foods, but is faced with famine.
Man wants to live longer, but if life is prolonged, it simply causes more problems.
Man wants to preserve his natural resources, but his lust for money cause him to abuse them.
Man wants clean water, but the refuse from his profitmaking factories destroy it.
Man wants economic security, but his manipulation of money creates chaos.
Man wants a safe society, but crime runs on almost unabated.
Man cries for clean politics, but many politicians use their power for personal gain.
Man desires moral standards, but the lust of the flesh destroys him.
Man attempts to educate against the use of drugs, and yet he produces them for self destruction.
Man dreams of a healthy race, but continues to manufacture health-destroying products: cigarettes which produce cancer, liquor which produces over nine million alcoholics in American alone, harmful additives to food.

The intellects of man without God have failed to solve any of these problems. The fact is, that the problems increase in spite of man’s efforts to curtail them.

Not only has man failed to turn to the Lord for help, but there are now nations which officially deny that the Lord exists.

The carnal mind is an enemy of God. Romans 8:7 tells us this. “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.”

We are also told that God gave man over to a reprobate mind. “And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient.” (Romans 1:28)

The carnal mind knows how to lie, to cheat, to covet. The carnal mind perverts everything it thinks about. “And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in you mind by wicked works…” (Colossians 1:21)

The shocking truth is this: when a person becomes a Christian the characteristics of the carnal mind still exist in his life, and continually harass the Christian’s enlightened mind (the mind of the new nature). This is why the believer’s thought patterns are constantly in conflict. Alternatives are set up and the believer can choose right or wrong. If the new nature is in control the mind thinks as Christ thinks. “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus.” (Philippians 2:5) If, on the other hand, the old nature’s mind is permitted to be dominant, the believer will revert to the carnal mind.

The carnal mind is an enemy of the Lord Jesus Christ, but it is also an enemy of the believer, and it constantly suggests thought patterns that are in opposition to the revelation from God’s word. We are told that we are to keep the unity of the Spirit. The new nature knows this and recognizes that he owes others around him patience, gentleness, forgiveness and love. These are all simply requests of the Lord and should not be too hard to obey. Yet the average Christian often fails.

A woman who was very much involved in an excellent church sought counseling. She said, “I teach Sunday school. I never miss church. I love the Lord – but I’ve become a shrew. I’m overcritical of my husband and my children. I say things that I don’t want to say. I have an urge to apologize, but my pride keeps me from doing it. What’s happened?

As the counselor described the believer’s two natures the woman understood for the first time the cause for her actions. “So,” she said, “that’s why I have these problems. My old nature pulls me one way and my new nature pulls me the other way. Even though I know it’s wrong, I allow my old nature to have its way and I do those foolish things repeatedly.”

This woman’s experience has been matched by countless Christian people. Once the old nature gains control it stubbornly resists subjection. The same problem repeatedly enters the life of the believer.

There is only one way to control the carnal mind. That is for the new nature to come to grips with the situation and begin a program of intake of Bible study. In the beginning it may be by sheer force of will, but as the new nature gains strength, energy and vitality, the carnal mind will grow weaker and lose some of its influence.

THE HEART

The old nature affects the emotions of man.

The old nature’s control of the body is an absolute for the old nature is doomed to die and the body goes along for the ride. The control by the old nature of the believer’s mind is optional, and the believer can bring the mind into subjection for Spirit-control. Of course, the battle will rage and there will be loss of skirmishes, but over all, if the believer listens to the Lord he will enjoy victory instead of experiencing Christianity as a burden.

Now we will study the old nature’s control of the heart, or the emotional part of man, for that’s what the word “heart” indicates. The Lord tells us in Proverbs 16:9, “A man’s heart deviseth his way.” And indeed, our emotions usually determine what we do. As in the physical, and the mental, so in the emotional, there is the battle of the two natures for control. Everyone possesses thousands of different emotional feelings, covering every area of life.

In Matthew 15:19-20 we read, “Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies; these are things which defile a man….”

The emotions behind these crimes are obvious: hate, bitterness, temper, smoldering anger, jealously, greed, coveting, lust of the mind, lust of the eye. The old nature’s pride is an extremely emotional area. When the Christian is criticized the old nature and its pride lash out.

There are many illustrations to demonstrate this:

A Christian couple, recently married, find subtle power struggles developing almost at once. These power struggles stem from their old natures. Instead of the two growing closer together, they drift apart.

A Christian mother suddenly finds herself in opposition to her fifteen year old daughter and they clash, with the mother demanding respect, and the daughter resisting more and more.

We see the old nature’s emotions sometimes at their worst in the local church. Things seem to be going along well, the suddenly there is a critical attitude against the pastor, or some conflict between people within the church. No one surrenders and the will of the Lord is lost. Friends become enemies.

How often we hear of someone who seemed to be all out for the Lord Jesus Christ, who seemed to grow for a year or so; suddenly drifting, failing to demonstrate any spiritual interest.

A missionary who had served faithfully in her field was forced to come home because of depression. “I can’t believe what has happened to me, “ she cried. “My depression was upon me before I knew what was happening. I never worried much about the future, or finances, or health, or retirement. Now I’m anxious about everything and for a year and a half I’ve existed with constant depression. I feel guilty, ashamed and defeated.

In this particular case the missionary was in an area where she was isolated and received no Bible study except on her shallow plane of teaching nationals. While she was very busy about her work, without realizing it, she was not growing spiritually. Satan is always clever enough to wait until a Christian is weakened by lack of spiritual growth. The he is there and the faith that is so necessary for vigorous growth is momentarily lost. Some people, encountering this loss, seek for an emotional uplift. When they get it they seem to be restored for a little while, but the drift sets in again and the old nature’s emotions well up and effect the life once again.

Most believers use the word “feel” to indicate how they react but feelings are not reliable, for they stem from emotions. It is wise, therefore, in spiritual things, not to let the emotions control the mind and the body, but rather to let the Word of God control the emotions, the mind, and the body. The phrase, “Thy will be done,” should be a pattern in the prayer life as we will see later. There will be times when the old nature violently resists the new nature’s decision to do the will of God. The old nature is persistent and clever, and uses intimidation and manipulation to win for the flesh.

There is one sin which constantly embarrasses Christianity. This sin involves the mind, the emotions and the body. It is the sin of sexual abuse among believers. The Lord constantly warns against licentious practices. There are over fifty references stating the Lord’s displeasure with fornication and adultery in the New Testament alone. In the Old Testament we find many excellent men and women whose testimonies were marred by immorality. Abraham, David and Solomon, along with many others, were trapped in this sin by the lust of their old natures.

The believer should understand that the drive for sexual fulfillment should be conducted in accord with the Lord’s program for marriage. When the old nature takes over and sexual abuse occurs, it affects many people.

Several Christian couples enjoyed a delightful social relationship together. They were all active in their local church and their friendship developed quickly. At first there was some innocent teasing within the group. It wasn’t long before the teasing developed into something far more serious between one of the girls and one of the men. When the affair was discovered the innocent mates were shocked and hurt. The man and woman who were involved said that they could not understand how it all happened; that it wasn’t intended, and they didn’t was to be immoral, but they were carried away by their passions. They asked for forgiveness from their mates and received it, but the scars remained. The Lord’s work suffered.

The guilty man and woman stopped their ministry in the church. The wife of the guilty man was so broken by what her husband had done that she attempted suicide. The other couples in the social group were effected also.

The old nature’s sexual drive can cause many heartaches and unless the believer has a well developed new nature, the temptation in this area can easily cause defeat.

CONCLUSIONS

The Word tells us that, “…the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth…” (Genesis 8:21) This is a fact and not to be treated lightly.

The old nature, corrupted, disobedient and arrogant, opposes the Lord Jesus Christ. When a person receives Christ, the old man is crucified with Him on Calvary and a new creation takes place. A battle begins. The old nature and the new nature compete for control. If the old nature goes on unchecked, the Christian life falls apart; it becomes sinful, guild ridden, negative, depressive and uninteresting. When the new nature is kept in healthy condition by constant Bible study, the Christian’s new nature becomes dominant. An exhilarating faith, love, joy and peace become the believer’s experience.

Timothy

April 18th, 2003, 09:57 AM

As far as our flesh goes, this verse says it all:

Romans 7:18 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."

The passages that he provided, such as Proverbs 16:9, Matthew 15:19-20, Genesis 8:21 are excellent example of how we should be knowledge based not emotion/feelings based. Not that emotions/feelings are wrong, but they should be the result not the indicator or the lead. Another example is:

Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

The old nature wants to think we are "self sufficent" but:

II Corinthians 3:5 "Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God"

Any other verses that come to your mind?

C_Chap

April 19th, 2003, 12:05 AM

Thank you for posting. A must read for every believer.

Gods Trombone

April 19th, 2003, 06:43 AM

Excuse me please for going a little "off-topic" but this Pauline doctrine illustrates for us why Paul met with such strong opposition throughout his ministry.

He preached the Gospel of the Grace of God and was misunderstood greatly by most. They would, and still do, accuse Paul of saying that we may continue to sin," in order that grace may abound."

These misguided folk are the enemies of the cross of Christ.

The true Gospel has always had its detractors and opposers.

This is true today.

The anwer Paul gave, and the answer we must give today to these "naysayers" is

Anything you do to try and make yourself "more spiritual" or "holy" that is not "Christ in you" is nothing but "filthy rags" i.e., it is *sin*.

The only way to live the "Christian life" is to allow Christ to live in you.

Paul is our example and he is our teacher. Jesus is in heaven and He gave Paul the message for us to learn how to live.

(GT now gets down from soapbox.):cool

David Mark

April 19th, 2003, 07:23 AM

edited

Marcia

April 19th, 2003, 07:56 AM

Thank you so much for posting this! As you can see, I am a redhead, and you know what that means!! :eek

There are times when I feel I am going to absolutely lose it; and I know without a doubt, it is the remnant of my sinful nature rearing its ugly head.

I pray for strength in these situations, that God will grant me grace and understanding.

anasazi

April 19th, 2003, 10:01 AM

Thank you so much!

joyttw

April 19th, 2003, 04:37 PM

A lot of great stuff here! I have a couple of questions though. If any of you have read my past posts on the flesh, you probably know where I am going with this:

1) Is there a difference between the flesh and the sinful nature? Do Christians really have two natures? What happens to this dual-nature theology when one does not use the NIV translation of Romans 7?

2) If the old man has been crucified and we are a new creation, where does scripture indicate that the old man has resurrection power? (I'm serious about this question, I don't know the answer.)

3) Is it really a civil war within me going on, or is it Satan working through sin dwelling in my flesh (my outer man) warring against my inner man, my spirit (which is a partaker in the divine nature)?

Perhaps it doesn't matter if we agree on the fine points of theology here, because practically speaking this is excellent reading. I just think it comes down to a battle for our soul between flesh and spirit, not between old nature and new nature. I don't think Christians are schizophrenic. Maybe I'm just splitting hairs. If it seems that way, I apologize. But maybe the understanding of this subject influences our understanding of our identity in Christ.

Thank you Timothy. And welcome to RR!

EricN79

April 21st, 2003, 11:23 AM

Wow, excellent teaching! I'm going to save it in Word and give it out to my family and friends.

Thank you very much for posting this!!

-Eric

Timothy

April 21st, 2003, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by joyttw Is there a difference between the flesh and the sinful nature?

The flesh is corrupted and therefore is sinful nature by nature.

Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

Romans 7:18 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing..."

Ephesians 4:22 "That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts"

Originally posted by joyttw Do Christians really have two natures?

Yes. That is what Paul is talking about with the "old man" and the "new man."

Romans 5:12 "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

Ephesians 4:22 "That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."

Also see the other passages referenced in earlier posts (i.e. Ephesians and Colossians)

Originally posted by joyttw What happens to this dual-nature theology when one does not use the NIV translation of Romans 7?

I'm not sure what you mean. I hapen to use the King James it is clear that we have two natures.

Originally posted by joyttw If the old man has been crucified and we are a new creation, where does scripture indicate that the old man has resurrection power? (I'm serious about this question, I don't know the answer.)

I would not say that the old man or our physical bodies have any ressurection power in of themselves. God, through his power and glory, will ressurect our bodies and change them.

I Thessalonians 4:13-16 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first"

Philippians 3:20 "For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."

I Corinthians 15:42-52 "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption...Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Originally posted by joyttw 3) Is it really a civil war within me going on, or is it Satan working through sin dwelling in my flesh (my outer man) warring against my inner man, my spirit (which is a partaker in the divine nature)?

Yes, there really is a civil war. Even if Satan were destroyed right now, our flesh is corrupted, and we would still sin.

Romans 7:15-25 "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

Stay tuned for the next segments, as this will get amplified.

Originally posted by joyttw I just think it comes down to a battle for our soul between flesh and spirit, not between old nature and new nature.

What you describe is one and the same. The old man is our flesh. The new man is our spirit.

joyttw

April 21st, 2003, 08:11 PM

I disagree. I don't think we have two natures. I don't think "flesh" and "sinful nature" (the NIV translation in Romans 7) are the same thing.

Romans 7:22-23: "For in my INNER BEING (my SPIRIT, who I really am) I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my BODY (my FLESH, where sin dwells - Romans 7:17&20 ), waging war against the law of my MIND (located in my SOUL) and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members."

2 Peter 1:4 says we are partakers of the divine nature. So, are you saying we have both a divine nature and a sinful nature? Is that possible?

I found an article explaining what I'm trying to say...

http://www.gospelcom.net/lifetime/local/equipped/journalRead/149

The “Power of Sin” is not the Sin Nature
by Dr. Bill Gillham
I wrote an article entitled The Power of Sin in our May, 1988 Ministry Letter. In it I pointed out that the word “sin” appears forty-one times in Romans 5-8, forty times as a noun, once as a verb. That is one of the most astounding revelations I have ever received from the Holy Spirit. I believe that most people who read this section of Romans interpret the word sin as a verb, or if they do see it as a noun, they either interpret it as a single sin, which was committed, or as their sin nature.

As most of you know by now, Lifetime Guarantee teaches that Christians do not battle against themselves, but against the power of sin, an agent of the devil which works through the flesh (old ways) to try to control the soul (personality). When we lose this battle, we “do the thing which we do not wish” and fail to “do the thing we wish.” We do not “wish” to sin, and yet we sin.

The power of sin is what its name implies, a power to entice you into sin. It dwells in you (Rom.7:21) yet it is not you any more than a gold tooth that dwells in your mouth is you. Sin’s goal is to deceive the saints into living to get their needs (though good and godly) met by sinning rather than by using the Matt. 6:33 method; that is, “seeking Christ first.”

The power of sin is not your sin nature. Your sin nature is a synonym for old man or old self. That “old you” was crucified in Christ (Rom. 6:6). Before you were saved, it was as normal for you old nature to rebel against God’s authority as it is for a fish to swim. However, with salvation the new you hates to sin (Rom. 7:15a, 19,22). That’s why the Bible addresses Christians 56 times as “saints” (holy one) rather than sinners saved by grace like we’ve erroneously believed. Even the Corinthians, the most carnal church in the epistles, are called “sanctified” and “saints” (1 Cor. 1:2).

Yet the power of sin is alive and well in you, saint. It indwells your body (Rom. 7:23). On page 1055 of W.E. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, Vine states that sin is, “a governing principle or power” that is “personified” in the following passages. He then lists sixteen verses in which this holds true. The term personified means “represented as a person.” The power of sin can represent itself as a personage.

You have heard us teach that the power of sin’s key tactic is to personify itself as your sin nature, the old man or the old you who was crucified with Christ. It accomplishes this by sending thoughts into your sound mind, the “mind of Christ” (1 Cor. 2:16) with first person singular pronouns in order to deceive you into believing that the old you has somehow jumped off the cross to “do the very thing you do not wish to do." Hey, nobody but Jesus can come down from a cross.

Let’s examine a few of the sixteen verses where Vine says the word hamartia, the Greek noun translated “sin,” is personified.

“Therefore, do not let sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts” (Rom. 6:14). Mr. Sin (the personification) cannot master you. Since sin is personified, let’s call it “Mr. Sin” so we won’t confuse it with the verb. Mr. Sin tries to control you, to make you live to satisfy your bodily needs.

“For sin shall not be master over you…(Rom. 6:14). Mr. Sin (the personification) cannot master you. Remember how sin is “represented as a person?” It tries to master you through presenting thoughts to your mind by masquerading as the old man who has risen from the tomb. But no one except Jesus can do that, right? That’s not the old man; it’s the power of sin personified.

“But thanks be to God that though you were slaves to Mr. Sin you became obedient from the (new) heart…and having been freed from Mr. Sin, you became slaves of righteousness” (Rom. 6:17-18). In both instances above, sin is a noun. It doesn’t say, “you were freed from sinning (verb)”; rather, it teaches that you have been freed from being controlled by the power of sin, which results in sinning. There’s a tremendous difference. The first would be robotical sinless perfection; the second would require a moment-by-moment appropriation of your freedom from being controlled by Mr. Sin.

“But, if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but Mr. Sin which indwells me (is somehow doing it)” (Rom. 7:20). This verse can really be a puzzler if you interpret the word “sin” as a verb. But it’s a noun, and Vine says it is personified (represented as a person). How is the power of sin involved in your sinning? The same way wind is involved in a windmill, electricity in a light bulb, water in a hydroelectric generator, or gasoline in an engine. It’s a power. If you let it, it will control you and you will sin (verb).

In the same way, Christ is your wind, electricity, water or gasoline, for righteous behavior if you will believe He is and act like He is by faith. He, Himself, is the power in the Christian life.

“But, I see a different law in the members of the Christian lie war against the law of my mind, and making me prisoner of the law of Mr. Sin…” (Rom. 7:23). Mr. Sin, the “personage,” wars, fights and seeks to control your mind. But your mind does not want to be controlled by this power, so it fights back. In a war there must be at least two sides represented and they must oppose one another. Otherwise the war would cease. Mr. Sin is on Satan’s side, so whose side is your mind on? God’s (1 Cor. 2:16). Otherwise the war would cease! You hate to sin, right? You like to get your human needs met (and that’s not evil), but you hate to sin in order to accomplish it.

The new man is a good person (saint) in Christ. Read the first eight verses of 1 Corinthians to discern what Paul has to say about the Corinthians’ true identity in Christ. He calls them “saints (holy),” “confirmed to the end,” “blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus,” etc. After reminding them of who they are, he kicks the daylights out of them because they are not acting like who they really are.

Can you see what a difference this makes in motivating a Christian as opposed to berating him by constantly telling him what a sorry, no-good sinner he is and how he is going to face an angry God some day? Folks, it’s our works which will be judged in the future, not our personhood (2 Cor. 5:10) and God is not mad at the saved. He took out all the anger He had against us on Jesus (Isa. 53). We’ll either be rewarded or we’ll lose what we potentially could have won, but “there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ” (Rom. 8:1).

“The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law” (1 Cor. 15:56). The Law is the source of Mr. Sin’s strength. To couple law with Mr. Sin is like pouring gas on a fire. This personage called sin needs a law to aid it if it is to optimally control you. It “eats, breathes and sleeps” via the Law.

“The Law is not made for a righteous man” (1 Tim. 1:9). Why? Because you, the righteous man (2 Cor. 5:21), don’t need it. The lost man does (in order to show him his condition), but you don’t. You now “have the laws of God written on (your) heart and mind” (Heb. 10:16). God’s ethical, moral law of agape is built into the new creation. You desire to obey God. Choose to let that law control you and you will keep the Commandments. Jesus summed them up in loving God and others (Mk. 12:30-31).

“But encourage one another…lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of Mr. Sin” (Heb. 3:13b). In this verse, sin is represented as a personage which can harden you through deception. It’s not talking about the deceitfulness of a single sinful act, but of a power called sin which “wars against your mind” (Rom. 7:23).

“You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against Mr. Sin” (Heb. 12:4). This is speaking of Jesus in the garden, not on the cross. He “sweat great drops of blood” as He struggled against this power called “sin” which was trying to coerce Him into rebelling against the Father God. But He won! And He continues to win in and through us if we, too, will learn that we are “dead to Mr. Sin” (Rom. 6:11).

These are some of the verses in which Vine says the word sin is personified. As I have studied the Word, I believer there are additional ones which he does not mention. In any case, it was exciting to discover that a man of Vine’s stature as a scholar testifies that the power of sin is often personified in the Word. What liberty there is in knowing that the rebellious, evil, hateful thoughts I experience are being presented to my mind, not generated by it. By simply standing on God’s Word and thinking, “Nope. I’m dead to you Mr. Sin. That’s not my idea,” and then acting “alive to God through Christ”, I have victory over the power of sin. Truly, “Mr. Sin shall not be master over you…” (Rom. 6:14a) when you act and therefore live like you are dead to its thought and alive to Christ.

© Lifetime Guarantee Ministries [published: 1988-11-01]
These articles are written for your spiritual growth. Copying, printing, and distribution are encouraged. Thank you for crediting Lifetime Guarantee Ministries and our website (www.lifetime.org) as the source.

joyttw

April 21st, 2003, 08:17 PM

Oh, I just found another one. I think I posted this a few months ago. Last article, I promise :)

http://www.gospelcom.net/lifetime/local/equipped/journalRead/180

Do Christians Still Have a Sin Nature?
by Dr. Bill Gillham
“The King is Dead! Long Live the King!” When I was a kid, I heard a Shakespearean actor in a film make such a statement and was thoroughly confused. How could the king be dead but alive at the same time? Little did I know that he was talking about two different people! Indeed, the former king had died and was no longer king…he had ceased to exist! But the new king, who could never have emerged as king had the old king not died, lives indeed! So long as the old king remained alive, the new king could not be “born.” But after the one’s “birth” as the new king, the old king could never again resurrect himself because he had no capability for self-resurrection! The very existence of the one precludes the existence of the other and vice versa! They cannot jump in and out of the grave, womb, grave, womb, etc.

The analogy is obvious to those who understand the Believer’s identification with Christ in His death and resurrection. The old man has indeed died (Romans 6:6, etc.) and the new man has indeed been generated by the Holy Spirit (Colossians 3:10, etc.). But, unfortunately, the pervasive position taken by most Christian leaders is that the old man is still “alive and well’ within the Believer…that sinful performance gives daily testimony to this as “fact.” The old man is seen to leap in and out of the tomb many times during the typical day. However, one seldom hears a teacher claim that the new man leaps in and out of the womb, but most never see that the very existence of either precludes the existence of its opposite! The two can’t coexist any more that the two kings can! It was the death of the old man, which enabled the new man to be born! It is impossible for the new man to exist until the old man has died and the old man cannot resurrect himself. There is but One Life Who has such resurrection power…the Life of Christ!

Galatians 5:17 says that the “flesh lusts against the spirit” and vice versa and there is obviously a war going on inside of every Christian, but it’s not the old man versus the new man doing battle. Those cannot exist simultaneously. The Greek word interpreted “flesh” in all pertinent New Testament verses refers to the body…the physical body with its frailties and vulnerability (to sin). Romans 7:20 speaks of the POWER OF INDWELLING IN (not the sin nature) working in man to produce undesirable (sinful) behavior. The power of sin simply deceives the Christian by masquerading as the old man, suggesting (deceiving) to the will that a choice be made to perform according to the old self-serving patterns programmed in previously. This is referred to as “walking after the flesh.” Satan could never deceive a Christian with a direct approach as a “little man in red underwear.” He must disguise himself if he is to have any hope of victory. There is one way and one way only to accomplish this deception and that is to masquerade in the thought life of the Christian posing as his unique version of the old man! The naïve Christian will believe he, himself, is generating the unchristian suggestion and thus direct his defensive efforts against the wrong foe…what he perceives to be a darker side of himself! He fires all his bullets at a shadow! This is the explanation for the frustration depicted in Romans 7:15 “…why do I do the very thing I hate? Why can I get no victory?”

For many years it appears to me that to adopt the posture that the sin nature was crucified in Christ (2 Cor. 5:21) would be rationalizing and excusing the Christian’s sinful performance. It seemed more logical to believe that Christians all have a sin nature against which the new man constantly must do battle. It would also appear that this is the noble, the more conservative, the more Spartan posture, and that to believe otherwise would be to fly in the face of personal experience as well as God’s Word. While subscribing to this view I was blocked from recognizing the truth of Rom. 7:20 cited previously. Though it would appear that the “two-natures” view places the greater responsibility for poor performance squarely on the Christian and that the “one-nature” view is a cop out, the opposite is actually true! So long as one embraces the former, he is constantly deceived into believing his failure is just standard Christian experience. As Scofield said (paraphrased), “This is not standard Christian experience, it’s the standard experience of most Christians,” the tragic result of faulty discipling. Once the Christian enters into identification with Christ’s death, resurrection and ascension, claiming he no longer has two natures, but is now “the righteousness of God in Christ” and “holy and blameless in His sight” he is without excuse when he sins, because he knows what it is to possess the Life (“Christ in me”) which overcomes on a moment-by-moment basis. He is discerning of how sin is able to deceive him by masquerading as the extinct “old man,” hoping the Christian will take the bait, believing that the old man has generated this impulse or thought and ends up “doing the very thing he hates.” (Rom. 7:15-20)

In reality, it is accepted as fact that Christians no longer have a sin nature that places one squarely on the hook and totally responsible to choose, moment-by-moment, against the wooings, deceptions and accusations of indwelling sin working through the flesh. “Always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus (moment-by-moment) in our body.” (2 Cor. 4:10—NAS)

“We know that our old (unrenewed) self was nailed to the cross (Note: this isn’t just our sins that Christ paid for on the cross, although PTL for that blessed truth, but that the old “you” died there, too) with Him in order that (our) body, (which is the instrument of) sin, might be made ineffective and inactive for evil, that we might no longer be slaves of sin.”(Romans 6:6 Amplified)
Indwelling sin deceives the “two-natures” Believer into rationalizing, “I’m just human. I just fail a lot and God understands it’s just my old sin nature that got the better of me.” This is the true cop out position! Such Believers often have Romans 7:15 underlined as “evidence” that their experience is “the normal Christian life,” when it is, in fact, wandering in the aimless circles of the wilderness with Canaan just a promise away. Awake sleeper! The king is dead! Long live the King!

© Lifetime Guarantee Ministries [published: 1980-01-01]
These articles are written for your spiritual growth. Copying, printing, and distribution are encouraged. Thank you for crediting Lifetime Guarantee Ministries and our website (www.lifetime.org) as the source.

Timothy

April 22nd, 2003, 02:46 PM

Thanks for joining the discussion! I said it before and I will say it again, I don't claim to know it all, and always pray for the "readiness mind" of a Berean. My purpose in starting the thread was not just to throw it out there, but to generate discussion such as this.

I've read through the two artciles twice, and will do so again as we proceed. I found some really good things in the articles, many of
the same things you will see repeated as additional segments are posted

The one statement that did stick out in my mind though like a sore thumb is this:

Indwelling sin deceives the “two-natures” Believer into rationalizing, “I’m just human. I just fail a lot and God understands it’s just my old sin nature that got the better of me.”

Though I belive scripture outlines that we have two natures, after thinking about this since last night, I can see where he is coming from, though. I would agree that someone who attempts such a rationalisation for sin is in error.

Some of what you posted may be putting the cart before the horse, so I would prefer to delay discussing the new man until that segment is posted. But let's discuss the old man, the new man, two natures, etc. I'm going to take the liberty of paraphrasing parts of your comments into questions:

1 - DOES MAN HAVE A SINFUL NATURE?

We definitely have a sinful nature that we inherited from Adam. Some call this our "Adamic nature."

Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

Romans 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

Ephesian 2:3 "Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

By the way, regarding sin and sins, yes there is a difference. In case I forget, someone remind me to discuss the "sin process" when we get to the new man.

2 - ARE OUR FLESH AND OUR SINFUL NATURE ONE IN THE SAME?

Hmm, per se, no. Our flesh has a sinful nature because it is corrupt. I would say they are intertwined. Paul says that nothing good dwells even in a saved person's flesh:

Romans 7:18 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing..."

Romans 6:19 "I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness."

3 - IS THE FLESH THE SAME AS THE OLD MAN?

Interesting question. I have always understood the old man to be a personifcation of the flesh. We know that from scripture that the flesh (even of saved people) is corrupt. Scripture also states that our old man is corrupt.

Ephesians 4:22-23 "That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."

I believe they are one and the same, as they are both corrupt. When we get to the new man, you'll see how we are to view our old man/flesh as being dead - based on knowledge.

4 - DO WE HAVE TWO NATURES?

Yes. As you see later, based on knowledge, we are to view the old man as being dead, because that's how God sees it. But once we are saved, our flesh and old man are not eliminated, purified, etc. They are still with us. Paul tells us that we are to "put off" the old man - it takes action on our part. The old man is still there, as you will see later, we are to put him in his place by considering him dead.

Ephesians 4:22-24 "That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."

4 - IS THERE A WAR GOING ON?

We definitely do have a war in ourselves, as the flesh is lusting against the Spirt, and vice versa.

Galatians 5:16-17 "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

Romans 6:11-12 "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof."

As you will see when we get to the new man, the war is for our thoughts, our minds, knowledge:

II Corinthians 10:3-5 "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ"

Timothy

April 22nd, 2003, 02:56 PM

Feel free to continue the discussion from my post above. I'm going to post the next segement, as it is a continuation of the same topic, the old man/nature.

Timothy

April 22nd, 2003, 02:58 PM

Segment/Chapter 3
More Titles of the Old Nature

The conflict of the two natures makes the Christian life extremely unpleasant at times. The old sin nature constantly harasses the new nature by seeking a self-centered approach to life. The old nature has an affinity with the world, and since the believer lives in the world, the old nature finds plenty of carnality to feed upon. This gives the old nature an advantage.

The new nature has no natural food source from the world but must draw aside for Bible study and fellowship. As we know, the new nature is seated in the heavenlies and has no interest in carnality.

Even the believer’s body finds its source from the elements that make up the cursed earth; it is therefore cooperative with the old nature when it comes to fulfilling its lusts.

For an example, take the Christian who has the problem of overeating. The new nature knows that temperance is important, but the old nature wants gratification and since the body, with its ability to enjoy the fragrance and taste of food is willing to cooperate with the old nature, gluttony results. Thus even this becomes a spiritual problem. It is not that eating food is at all sinful, but when the old nature takes over and gluttony arises it becomes sinful.

Not only does the body cooperate with the old nature, but the mind does also.

A dedicated Christian young person may enter college and almost at once encounter peer group pressure to accept the evolutionary theory. Since the majority of the people in the world accept this as truth, the believer’s old nature often confronts the Christian with the apparent reasonableness of the theory. The new nature accepts the creation record that God has given. So the two natures struggle for supremacy and the results depend on which nature is fed.

Not only do the body and mind cooperate with the old nature, but the emotions do also. Human relationships are bound to involve the emotions and a man and woman thrown together constantly, even in a Christian work situation, may find an unwholesome interest in one another. Both may be very aware of the Scriptural injunctions against such a relationship, but because of their carnal, emotional needs they are drawn almost irresistibly toward each other. Unless the new nature is fed with good, spiritual food the sin of the old nature will prevail.

We have seen these characteristics of the old nature in the first four titles we have studied. These characteristics are further established by the study of five more titles of the old nature.

CARNAL

We looked specifically at the carnal mind. Now we will look at carnality in a more general way. Paul, in writing to the church at Corinth said, “And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.” (I Corinthians 3:1) He established immediately that he considered the people he was writing to to be spiritual brethren. Then he explains that he has a problem in speaking to them as spiritual, for they were carnal.

Flesh, as used to describe the whole unregenerate man: mind, emotions and body, has a worldly indentity and has a desire to do what the world does. The word “carnal” describes the bridge that the old nature builds to reach out into worldliness. The world, in turn, crosses the bridge into the carnal character of the Christian and produces attributes that are in opposition to God’s will. In I Corinthians 3:3 you will notice three things that result from carnality: envying, strife and divisions. “For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal and walk as men?”

What individual Christian has not felt the effect of these three problems? What church has escaped the bitterness that arises from them?

Paul had the local church in mind. In the first chapter he had described the carnal condition of these believers by pointing out that they were man followers. One liked Apollos, one Peter, some Paul, and then there was the super-spiritual, self-righteous group which divided itself from the others and said, “We are of Christ.”

This is one of Satan’s cleverest methods of dividing Christianity. How often we hear that this speaker is so much better than that speaker; or, “The pastor we had before did it that way, and our present pastor does it this way.” Such words as, “great, tremendous, dynamic and deep,” are attributed to men by people who latch on to certain speakers. One of the recent words of flattery is “charisma.” These comparisons are not only non-spiritual, the are carnal, but the old natures of believers keep right on falling into the same trap.

When the church grew to about four hundred a pastor appealed to his board for an associate. After interviewing several dozen men they chose one they “liked.” For a year the pastor and his associate seemed to work well together.

During the second year there was a gradual polarization of the people. The younger couples gravitated toward the associate, while the older ones were “loyal to the pastor who had originated the church.”

Within three years the division developed to the point where the church split. Why? The answer is obvious. The people had become victims of carnality. With it came the agony of hosts of kindred sins: gossip, anger, self-righteousness, criticism and disunity. Of course no one on either side admitted doing wrong for, because of pride, the old nature will never surrender.

When a church has a mass of Christians acting on a carnal basis there are very few who will listen to the spiritual solutions to the problems. It is amazing how often the evil that Christians do in their old natures is accepted as “the defense of the faith” or “a matter of separation.”

In this case the older pastor, discouraged and broken, left the ministry. This was a chain reaction, for his decision was the result of his old nature.

It should be noted that in I Corinthians 3:2 Paul place carnality as an expected problem of young believers. “I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.” This is an accurate evaluation. Since it takes time for the new nature to grow and develop by absorbing the Word of God, it may be expected that a young Christian would encounter difficulties associated with the sins of his former life.

The tragedy is that the old nature is always carnal and while we may expect problems with young Christians, it is disappointing to see older Christians involved in worldly responses and actions.

We have looked at the outward expression of carnality, but each believer should understand that the inward action of the old nature is always reaching out to the world for satisfaction and repeatedly tricks the believer. The new nature will always be threatened and especially so when the Christian is not feeding on the strong meat of the Word.

Paul brings this out graphically in the Book of Hebrews where he tells the people that while they should be teachers, he finds it necessary that they still be taught. “For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God: and are become such as have need of milk and not of strong meat.” (Hebrews 4:12) Why were they still on milk when they should have been able to consume meat? They needed their spiritual senses exercised so they could discern good and evil, which, of course, are the options faces by every believer.

The old nature’s senses, exercised by the world, will always want to choose the world’s approach; and exercise brings strength. In contrast, when the new nature’s senses are exercised the believer is enabled to choose the will of God.

THE NATURAL MAN

Another title of the old nature is the natural man, as we find in I Corinthians 2:14. “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

Peter also mentions the natural man and he likens him to a brute beast. “But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things they understand not: and shall utterly perish in their own corruption.” (II Peter 2:12) Again, this is not a pretty picture, but to be a well balanced Christian, and to know how to cope with the animalistic desires which well up in the believer’s life, every Christian should understand his old nature’s potential for evil.

The natural man will not receive nor accept the things that the Spirit of God would teach to the new nature. This accounts for some of the awful things Christians do. It can be observed most clearly in the life of a Christian who rebels against the will of God and enters into some sinful realm.

A teenage girl, raised in a splendid Christian home, graduated from high school and went to work for the summer. An unsaved man, years her senior, already married and divorced, worked near her. The girl, who had been somewhat sheltered, had not dated very often and was captivated by this man’s flattery. Frightening changes took place in her attitude toward her home, her former friends and spiritual things.

About three months after the girl met this man she announced to her parents that she was going on a weekend camping trip with him and several others. The parents were appalled, and demanded that the girl see the pastor.

The pastor appealed to the girl on the basis of the Bible. She answered almost every plea with old nature responses: “God let me meet him….God let me fall in love with him…We won’t be alone, there will be other people on the trip…Nothing’s going to happen I don’t want to happen…I can handle myself…I don’t care what people think.”

Toward the end of the hopeless counseling session the pastor asked, “Don’t you know you’re wrong? Is the Holy Spirit leading you in this?”

“Oh, I suppose I’m wrong, but I’m going anyway. I’m eighteen and I can do what I want.” And she did, and to make a sad story even sadder, she married the man and was very disturbed that her pastor refused to perform the ceremony. Within a year she reaped the results of her “natural man” and was divorced.

The natural man, as Peter suggests, possesses animal-like qualities. We often hear people liked to animals. A woman who quietly slips around maligning others is called “catty.” A woman who flirts is called “kittenish.” A man who pursues women without discrimination is called a “wolf.” A treacherous man is called a “snake in the grass.” A grouchy man is called an “old bear.” A shrewd businessman is called “foxy.” A promiscuous woman is called a “birdie.” A coward is called a “chicken.” A dumb person is called an “ox.” A stubborn person is called a “mule.” A glutton is called a “hog.” A foolish person is called an “ape.”

Each Christian should analyze his old nature and get an honest evaluation of what his old nature is like.

The old sin nature, with its Adamic inheritance, latches on to sin patterns in babyhood. These sin patters often persist through childhood and extend into adulthood. As life goes on new sin patterns are adopted.

When a person receives the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour, and thus receives the new nature, it must be remembered that the old nature will not give up the pattern that has been developed through the years. If a person had a temper before he received Christ, the old nature still will have a tendency to display temper. If a non-believer is melancholy, with his tendencies to self-pity, depression and criticism, those tendencies will extend into the Christian life.

The only way that these things can be curbed will be by the objective action of the new nature in counteracting them by obedience to the Word. This involves, as Paul put it, bringing the body into subjection and locking up the passions of the old nature.

But the potential for the old nature’s action will always be present.

This was illustrated by a young man who was a cleptomaniac before he became a Christian. He spent some time in jail. When he was twenty-six he received Christ as his Saviour. The only job he could get was driving a taxi. Within a month he was in the pastor’s study. “I’m in trouble. I’ve been taking money from the fares, “ he said. “The man who owns the company is tough. If he finds out I’ll lose my job.”

He was counseled to go to the owner and tell him exactly what happened and pay the money back then ask for a voluntary probation period. This was done and the owner of the taxi company willingly gave him another opportunity.

This act has helped to contain the tendency of this young man’s old nature. Yet, as this man acknowledges, “I still have to watch myself, and if I lower my guard I could be in trouble in a minute.”

Remember, the old nature is dead to the Lord, but alive to the world. Remember that the new nature is alive to the Lord and dead to the world. Remember that the two natures are going to cause constant conflict, but the victory can be the new nature’s in any given situation, for the Lord Jesus Christ has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you, “ and the Holy Spirit will teach the believer how to cope with his old nature.

LEAVEN

The Apostle Paul calls the old nature leaven. “Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us.” (I Corinthians 5:7)

The word “leaven” gives a number of suggestive ideas concerning the character of the old nature. Yeast, which is a form of leaven, is actually a corruption that consumes everything it can feed upon. “A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.” (Galatians 5:9) The word literally means to ferment and make sour.

This is a graphic description of the old nature, for the old nature does produce evil in the believer and that evil eats, as a worm, until the whole life is influenced.

The leaven of complaining in the chronic stage spoils all joy for the believer. It not only influences him in a negative way, but the corruption spreads to others.

A Christian may be at a picnic and during the course of the day say the following things, giving an indication of her poisonous approach to life. “Oh, isn’t it hot!…Aren’t the flies awful!…You have to be careful of ticks…I wish those kids would quiet down…It’s getting cloudy…Look at that Martha, does she think she’s a kid, playing volley ball that way?…Oh, this coffee’s cold…I’m so tired!…Now look what you made me do! I spilled my coffee…Why did they have to come to this place? I should think they’d pick a spot where you could go swimming…Oh, my feet hurt…I’d like to curl up and take a nap.” And on, and on, and on.

The old nature will not adjust to anything that the new nature would enjoy. Phrases such as, “Why do we have to sing all the stanzas of every hymn?…I think the pastor’s necktie should be more conservative…Do you think the choir was sort of dull this morning?…Oh that pastor’s voice is a monotone…His message was so long…I’ll be so glad when we get out of the Book of Romans, we’ve been studying it for a year now…Church was so hot this morning…The church isn’t friendly.”

A woman talking like this on the way home from church plants seeds of unrest in her children, but when the children rebel in their teens the woman will say something like this: “The pastor never was interested in young people. They never did have a program that was worth anything. And where can a nice girl meet a Christian boy? There are none in our church. No wonder my daughter’s going with an unsaved man.”

The old nature thus takes all the joy out of life, not only for that Christian, but her family and everyone who hears the negative approach. The pastor himself will sooner or later hear of the criticism directed at him. He, in turn, may become discouraged.

This leads us to the next title of the old nature:

THE WRETCHED MAN

Paul had been a Christian for years when he wrote a letter to the believers at Rome. He referred to his old nature as the “Wretched man.” “O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” (Romans 7:24) There was no question but that he had experienced the same problems present day Christians have with their old natures.

We know that he clashed with other believers from time to time. We also know that fears played a part in his life, for when he approached Corinth the Lord had to speak to him because he was terrified at entering the city. There must have been a desparation when he turned to the Lord and called for help when he was physically disabled.

The old nature cannot cope with life and he is constantly reacting to hostility and apprehension. We are told that there are more than two hundred and eighty fears common to man. Someone has reduced this number to six basic fears. Every Christian, if he lives the normal span of years, will experience these fears in his old nature.

When a Christian encounters fear in his old nature he may become apprehensive and ask the question of himself, “If I am a Christian, how can I be afraid? Perfect love is supposed to cast out fear. If perfect love casts out fear, why am I afraid?” But he goes right on being afraid, for the old nature is going to respond in a fearful way to the problems he faces.

A brief review of the six basic fears will give the Christian insight into the personality of his old nature.

Timothy

April 22nd, 2003, 02:59 PM

1 – Fear of Poverty

Worry about money matters is a constant problem, and while the Christian knows that the love of money is the root of all evil, his old nature will defiantly love money.

A couple had a problem with their sixteen year old daughter. The wife said, “Raising children always fell on my shoulders. My husband gave me no help. He married his business and left the house at six o’clock in the morning. Often he didn’t get home until nine o’clock in the evening.”

The husband countered, “You were the one who kept after me. ‘We need more money. We need more money. Other people in the church have this or that. Why don’t you get a better job?’ I couldn’t get a better job. I had to spend more time in the job I had to get enough money to keep you quiet.”

Scenes like this will often occur and must be attributed to the lust of the old nature.

2 – Fear of Criticism

The believer’s old nature is extremely over-sensitive. The old nature’s pride responds quickly to negative comments. If you have any doubt about it, try pointing out some weakness in another Christian. You’ll see an instant change in his facial expression and the tone of voice will display resentment.

Our old natures have defense mechanisms which explode when attacked. This fear of criticism is the cause for ninety per cent of the distresses in the Christian community.

A Christian girl was extremely attractive and was often a soloist in her church. Another girl, apparently jealous of this gift, said to the soloist, “Sometimes I wonder whether you’re singing for the Lord, or whether you’re singing to get applause.”

That statement destroyed the friendship between the two girls. The old nature would never admit it might be looking for praise, but the interesting part about it is that sometime later the soloist told someone else that she would like to sing in the secular world.

3 – Fear of the Loss of Love

The old nature quickly arises to jealousy when love is threatened.

A Christian couple repeats vows of fidelity at their wedding ceremony, only to discover that as the years go by they feel threatened by unfaithfulness.

Observe the dating game young people play in any local church. A boy and a girl will go together for six months, then have a falling out. Instead of any continuing friendship, hate grows and they do not talk to each other. Often they go to the extreme of vicious gossip and self-vindication.

Adult Christians are involved in this same pattern. A tight-knit clique develops in the church until old natures clash. Fellowship is broken and division takes place.

The first three fears have to do with the mind and the emotions. The last three fears have to do with the old nature’s apprehension of anything that threatens the body.

4 – Fear of Illness

A lump where it’s not supposed to be; a sudden flaring pain across the chest and down the left arm, a consciousness of diminishing eyesight and many other ills bring terror to the old nature. This is usually time when the old nature becomes a prayer warrior, begging God for help. Sometimes along with the begging come promises of great dedication to future service for Christ. “If only You will cure me, Lord, I’ll do anything for You.”

How often, after the recovery, the old nature’s promises are forgotten!

5 – Fear of Old Age

This is a vicious fear. An old Christian is often possessed by the old nature to the point of chronic depression and self-pity. The old nature often says, without meaning it, “I wish the Lord would take me home. My husband’s been dead for seventeen years and I’m so lonely! I’m a burden to my children. What do I have to live for? It’s terrible to see all your friends die. I’m good for nothing now.”

Instead of seeing life from a spiritual viewpoint, the let the wretchedness of the old nature take over and become complainers.

6 – Fear of Death

This is perhaps the most common fear of all. The old nature of the Christian becomes obsessed with the fear of death and concentrates on the negative, battling the truth that the new nature wants to secure in the mind of the believer: “For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.”

The old nature will keep the believer awake nights in torment, agony and resentment against the approaching day of the glorious departure to be with Christ.

Is it any wonder that the Apostle Paul called the old nature a “wretched man?” He went on to say that his old nature was the body of his death, but his victory in his spiritual nature was the recognition that Jesus Christ had delivered him from that body.

THE OLD MAN

The Lord designates the old nature, “the old man.” “That he put off concerning the former conversation, the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts.” (Ephesians 4:22) “Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds.” (Colossians 3:9)

This title indicates that the old nature is older than the new nature. The old nature grows continually, although the Christian may be progressing in his new nature; for the old nature’s contact with the world teaches him new things constantly. With every new thing the old nature learns comes more conflicts with the new nature.

The old nature may hear a dirty joke and because it is funny, repeat it, although the new nature resents this. The old nature may have a conflict with another person and develop nasty attitudes which were not evident before. So the “old man” does grow and become more expert in his deceitful lusts.

CONCLUSION

How can the new nature cope with the old nature? The Lord has not left us without the answers.

When the believer studies the personality and characteristics of his old nature and understands how he operates, he can then, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, set up a program of starvation of the old nature. He will understand that the animal characteristics of this old nature are vicious, deceitful and corrupt. He will know that the antics of the old nature do not threaten his salvation. He will discover that, regardless of what the old nature does, the new nature’s counteraction will alleviate the problem and bring victory.

In a later chapter we will look into this thoroughly.

noelcourt

April 23rd, 2003, 09:27 AM

Bump...:D
This is good stuff!

noelcourt

April 24th, 2003, 11:41 AM

Timothy,
Where's the next "installment" (segment)? :)

Or is what you've posted thus far the radio transcript in its
entirety?

Don't leave me hanging:D !

Timothy

April 25th, 2003, 10:12 AM

Segment/Chapter Four
Some Titles of the New Nature

Every person born into this world has an old nature. This comes as a result of Adam’s sin. The old nature is described as being depraved, sinful, corrupt, evil, licentious, unclean, like filthy rags, alienated from God, dead in trespasses and sins, an enemy of Christ, and a stranger to the Lord.

The Lord, being righteous and living in a righteous place, could not allow anyone into Heaven with these characteristics. If He did, within a week Heaven would be as bad as earth. There would be murder, adultery, lying, stealing, swearing, coveting and anger. The Lord has said that no defilement will enter into Heaven.

In the light of this we can see that a man, in his unregenerate state, cannot enter heaven.

The Lord, knowing what Adam did to the human race, offers an escape from eternal damnation. This plan was unfolded by Christ when He was crucified on the Cross of Calvary. It was there that Christ took upon himself man’s sin. The make this sacrifice of Christ effective, a person must believe and accept what Christ did for him.

Thus, in the providence of God, the old nature died with Christ on Calvary. Instantly a new creation takes place within the person. The old nature is not made clean. The old nature does not change it personality. The Lord asks in Jeremiah 13:23, “Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots?…”

While God sees the old nature as dead with Christ, the old nature has a suspended sentence and lives on in the believer until death or rapture. The old nature still has the capacity to respond to the world. He will always try for supremacy and control over the mind, the emotions and the body. He will constantly harass the new nature. The new nature, in turn, will resist the old nature and seek for supremacy. The believer is never removed from the warfare.

We have looked at the titles of the old nature and discovered its characteristics. A study of the new nature’s titles will give us an insight to its characteristics.

A NEW CREATURE IN CHRIST

“Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature; old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” (II Corinthians 5:17)

The physical creation of God ended a long time ago as far as the earth is concerned. But we see that spiritual creation is a continual work of God, occurring each time people receive Christ. This new creation is a birth from above. It is born much like Christ was born; for as the Holy Spirit brought about the conception of Mary, so the Holy Spirit, by planting the seed of the Word of God in the life of a person, produces something new; something which did not exist before.

The old nature with its corruption is dead and buried in Christ, as far as God is concerned. It has passed away with all its lustful deeds, and the new nature with its new life brings about new interests, new goals, new associations, new concepts and a new program for living.

We must insist that the believer keep in mind that the old nature is still desiring to be actively engaged in his carnal relationship to the world.

The new creation has absolutely no flaw in it. We learn that it is created in righteousness and true holiness. “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (I John 3:9)

The new creation has only Christ-like attributes. Christ is the life of it; the sustainer of it. It is He Who gives the person the righteousness of God upon believing. “For he hath made Him to be sin for us, Who know sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.” (II Corinthians 5:21)

At this time the believer is made an heir of God and a joint heir with Christ. This inheritance ultimately includes the wiping away of tears and the elimination of pain, sorrow, defilement and death.

The believer also has a conscious reality of his usefulness to God. God does not simply give the new creation. The Lord tells us in Ephesians 2:10 that our salvation includes the production of good works, so that every believer is a vital part of God’s program. “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

God, in this new creation, gives each believer gifts, and each believer should study the list of gifts God offers. It may be helpful to enumerate some of them as described in Romans 12.

The ability to witness.
The ministry of the Word.
Teaching the Word.
Exhorting (encouraging others)
Ruling (administration of spiritual work)
Giving of money
Showing mercy with cheerfulness
Loving (every believer in his spiritual nature automatically has this gift of love for others; his mate, his family, the bretheren, and his enemies. But how few Christians utilize this gift!)
Affection
Integrity in business
Serving the Lord
Rejoicing
Patience (when problems arise)
Prayer
Distributing to the needs of other believers
Gracious in hospitality
Identification with other believers in sorrows and joys
Bringing unity where there is division

In other places in the church epistles we find some other gifts.

The ministry of grace
Supporting the weak
The ministry of comfort
Peacemaking
Caring for the feebleminded
Showing gentleness
Forgiving

SPIRT

The Holy Spirit, according to the third chapter of John moves into the believer, bringing the new birth. From that time on, the Christian is a spirit-being and possesses the essence of the Holy Spirit. The spirit nature, feeding on the Holy Spirit, will produce spirit-like fruit, as we find in Galatians 5:22-23 “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.”

The first three fruits of the Spirit, as possessed by the spirit nature, are love, joy and peace. The unsaved man cannot receive these gifts from God, but the spirit nature receives them with delight. He loves the Lord because the Lord first loved him. He is obedient to the commandment that he is to rejoice in the Lord, and he will continue to do so. The flesh nature is a war with God, but the spirit nature is at peace with God.

The spirit nature also has a different approach to others. The flesh nature intimidates and manipulates other people for self-satisfaction and gain. The spirit nature gives instead of takes. He gives longsuffering, which means he is willing to suffer for an extended period of time. He bears the burdens caused by other people’s old natures. When the spirit nature is in control, gentleness flows from the believer to others. This is a word which stems from grace. In the third place, the believer’s spirit nature produces the attribute of goodness, rather than malice, anger, vindictiveness or vengeance.

Not only does the spirit nature have a new relationship to God and to others, he also has a new relationship to himself as the Spirit feeds him with faith, meekness and temperance. Faith is a gift from God which grows as he absorbs the Word of God. The Holy Spirit’s gift to the spirit nature is a new humility, or a meekness which enhances his personality. In the third place, in a relationship to himself, the believer finds temperance. Temperance is something the flesh nature does not have.

The spirit nature does have self control. The old nature may have been drunken, or obsessed with drugs or lust. These are drives of the bodily organs demanding sinful gratification. When a person is born from above the spirit nature receives from the Holy Spirit the gift of control over the body. Of course, the flesh nature does not go along with this control and will fight it, but the spirit nature has the potential and when fed by the Holy Spirit, it is surprising how the Christian can control the passions of the flesh.

As a result of temperance, the Christian finds himself to be healthier. He may stop smoking, which diminishes the potential of cancer. He may stop drinking, which would diminish the problems of the liver. The may stop overeating, with its kindred illnesses. He may stop worrying, which could reduce the problems of ulcers, high blood pressure, hyper-tension, hives, and may other illnesses.

THE INWARD MAN

One of the most delightful titles of the new nature is “the inner” or “inward man.” The contrasting title of the new nature is the “outward man,” which we learned indicates the body’s deterioration.

“…we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.” (II Corinthians 4:16)

“For I delight in the law of God after the inward man.” (Romans 7:22)

“That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man” (Ephesians 3:16)

The inward man does not deteriorate, but he does get tired, for, as a citizen of Heaven, he is a foreigner living in a world of evil.

A Christian said, “I am exposed to filthy language eight hours a day, five days a week. I work with a gang of men who constantly use four letter words and constantly use the name of Christ in blasphemy. They all know where I stand, for I have shared Christ with them, but they seem to be hardened to the Lord and unafraid of the consequences of their language.

“I have been in that shop for twelve years. The other day during a thunder storm I had a flat tire on the expressway. When I got out of the car and looked at that tire, the very words I so detested from the men at work were the very words that welled up in my mind. I couldn’t believe it.”

Most Christians experience moments like this. But the Lord has provided an instant ability to shift from that sadistic power of the old nature to the spirituality of the new. The inner man, or the new creation, which dwells in the body is in harmony with the Holy Spirit. The vitality of the Holy Spirit can bring instant strength. The believer can pick himself up from the defeat, as it were, and move on with quiet serenity. The new nature, at a time like this, may say to the Lord, “Lord, you know the corruption of my old nature. He got away from me again, but I thank You that he is crucified with Christ and that I am free from his shackles and sin will not have dominion over my new nature.”

We are also told that we can forget the things that are past, and press on toward the mark of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 3:14) It is the inner man who responds to this high calling, not the outward man. The decaying of the outward man and the renewal of the inner man causes head-on crashes in the believer’s experience. As long as the believer knows what is going on and realizes the problem, and acts in accord with the Lord’s Word, victory is assured.

There is an interesting aspect concerning the outward man which puzzles Christians from time to time. A person who has lived a balanced Christian life for years may, when he is old, become senile. It is not the inner man which becomes senile, it is the outward man. At a time like this, when physical decay smothers a person, the old nature many burst out with surprising words of carnality, or display vicious attitudes. This has caused great distress to members of the Christian’s family.

One woman was with her father who had been in a coma for several weeks in the hospital. She was amazed when he suddenly sat up in bed and said things she never heard from his lips before; things harsh, things of the world, things dirty. Then he fell back on the bed and died.

The woman, who had been led to Christ by her father, was too shocked to share her awful secret with anyone. She did not understand the power of the old nature. She did not understand that the old nature wanted to destroy the testimony of the spiritual nature. She did not understand that the old nature knew it was terminal, therefore lashed out in a final burst of evil.

Years later, when this woman learned the doctrine of the outward and inward man, she understood what had occurred. She said, “When I heard my father say those awful suggestive, dirty things, I assumed he was not a Christian, although for years he ha preached in missions and led hundreds of people to Christ. He had led me to Christ, but when I heard the terrible things he said I lost my confidence in the Lord and questioned my own salvation. Now I know that it was not his spiritual nature which was involved, it was his old nature.”

A healthy Christian with knowledge of the two natures should expect the old nature to play dirty tricks and bring to mind corrupts thoughts and words. A Christian should know that he has instant recourse with the God of all Grace, Who has forgiven all sin and crucified the old nature with Christ, and nothing can separate the believer from God.

THE PURE MIND

“This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you: in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance” (II Peter 3:1)

This title of the new nature has as its counterpart, the carnal mind. One of the amazing characteristics of the new birth is the insertion of purity into the mind that was possessed by carnality before. The mind is the seat of the intellect. When a person receives Christ as Saviour he becomes a dual intellect and, as the Bible expresses it, he becomes double-minded as well as double-hearted and double-tongued. This is a new creation, it is not a cleaning up of the carnal mind.

The brain, with its marvelous ability to store information, does not automatically forget all the evil things it has learned in life. These things continue on in memory and are linked with the old nature’s point of view. The person receives a new mind when he believes. Like in the inner man, the new mind always has access to renewal, refreshment and vigor as it feeds on the Word of God.

As in all other contrasts between the two natures, and perhaps even more so in the two minds, we see the awesome battle raging. The new nature knows what is right and wants to do right. The old nature knows what is wrong and wants to do wrong. So, alternates are set up thousands of times a day, crying for decisions to be made between the two natures.

The pure mind, born of God, says “This is what I should do.” The carnal mind suggests something else, and the power struggle goes on. The believer is supplied with a challenging suggestion in Philippians 2:5 “Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus.” The believer ought to look at the world around him and see it from the loftiest of all viewpoints: the mind of Christ.

“…be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable and perfect, will of God.” (Romans 12:2)

“And be renewed in the spirit of your mind.” (Ephesians 4:23)

CONCLUSION

In the next section we will discuss five more titles of the new nature. It should be remembered that both natures and aggressively contesting for possession of the mind, the emotions and the body. It is a running battle. The old nature does not mind using any means to get his way, and it is extremely strong and clever in the ways of selfishness. He can take over in an instant, and once he gains strength he can torment the believer by getting him to do things the spiritual nature would never permit.

But the believer’s spiritual nature is not left helpless. He can be instantly renewed in the inner man and the mind, by looking to the Lord in prayer, and listening to what He has to say. The victory is in Christ.

John

April 27th, 2003, 01:21 AM

More! More! More!:D :D :D

I praise God for this.

I have recently been doubting after overcoming the doubt that plagued me so much a while ago. I have been a Christian for about 4 months now (still a baby), but all kinds of questions about my salvation have arose. These studies have blessed me greatly and I can't wait for the next! :)

Timothy

April 28th, 2003, 03:34 PM

Chapter Five
More Titles of the New Nature

Every person in this world is unique. No two people are alike. God has given human beings endless personality differences. When Satan entered into the human race he was clever enough to take all these personality differences and pervert them from God’s original creation; thus no two old natures are alike. One person’s old nature may appear to be pleasant, easy-going and happy. He may not seem to worry about his past, present or future. He naturally likes people, gets along with people and is loved by people. He may be very capable of feeding peple a line, which although it lacks genuine sincerity, will captivate and cause others to think he is charming. He doesn’t take things too seriously. He may lose his temper momentarily, but within five minutes forget the incident completely.

When a person like this becomes a Christian he is often described as, “a delightfully spiritual person.” Someone might say, “That’s the kind of Christian I’d like to be; friendly, outgoing, never worrying, and likeable.” It may be that people are seeing the old nature and not qualities of spirituality at all.

The old nature may trick this kind of Christian into thinking that some emotional experience was a deep, spiritual awakening, which may not be true. This kind of Christian may constantly make promises to the Lord, and his intentions will be great, but he is not dependable and he will break the promises. Why? The old nature is tricky and may seem to go along with the new nature for a while, but when the old nature has seduced the new nature into slumber the believer will return to the old life. Samson and Peter seem to fall into this category. This type of person is often shallow in his spiritual life and it is difficult for the new nature to gain enough strength to control the old nature.

Ideally, in his new nature, a person like this can be used in a tremendous way. His open relationship with people gives him the ability to witness to everybody he meets. The would make and excellent evangelist or personal worker.

Another person, in his old nature, may be hard, cold and cruel. He may used people to gain his own end. He will often be a loner, and slow to show sympathy.

When a person like this receives Christ problems arise, for the new nature has to take those same characteristics and develop them for Christ; but the Holy Spirit can do it, and the Lord can use such as person mightily. He could develop into a tireless worker, a disciplined student, or a person who can handle the Lord’s money with no-nonsense efficiency. Yet, this same Christian may be looked upon by other Christians as aloof, cold and unfriendly.

A third type of personality is very common. This the person who is introspective, depressed and self-analytical. He may constantly feel sorry for himself, and be extremely self-centered. He is quick to be extremely critical of others, but over-sensitive when he is criticized.

When the new nature enters at salvation, the Holy Spirit must be permitted to convert these negative characteristics into positive characteristics. A person like this can become interested in others, sensitive to the needs of others and able to interpret life for others. He may make a very sympathetic teacher or counselor. He may have a musical gift and sing to the souls of fellow-believers. But his old nature will constantly tug him toward depression and defeat with a constant tendency to introspection.

A fourth type of person is also common. He is the person who is not over excited about life. He takes things pretty much as he finds them and doesn’t move to the extremes found in other types. His chief aim in life is to be let alone; not harassed, not bothered, not involved. He can take other people or leave them. He may be indolent, lazy and undisciplined.

Here again, a person like this does not basically change when he receives Christ, but the Holy Spirit can convert the negatives into positives. He often is the unsung hero in the local church, quietly doing his job, with little recognition for what he has accomplished. He does not participate in strife or division but remains aloof. If he is asked to do something, he will do it. If not, he will sit in an uncomplaining way and accept the status quo.

This person’s old nature often interferes with the new nature’s development, for he is not accustomed to driving toward goals and may drift into complacency.

It is interesting to see the impact of Christ on any life. An association with him utilizes the basic personality structure, but sifts out the corruption of the old nature.

It is important for all believers to realize how different they are from one another. That is why the Lord warns against judging. Every Christian should accept every other Christian in his spiritual nature, knowing that the Lord uses differences. But believers’ old natures resist such tranquility and unity and criticize those who are different.

We have discussed four of the titles of the new nature. Now we will look at five other titles.

DIVINE NATURE

Peter, in the first chapter of his second epistle, verse four, says: “Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises; that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.”

This indicates one of the most astonishing relationships which occurs when a person receives Christ as Saviour. He literally partakes of the divine nature of Christ and becomes a member of His body.

The Lord tells us Christ is the head of the Body, and the divine nature in the believer possesses the characteristics of Christ.

The new nature absolutely and totally escapes the appeal of the lust of the eye, the lust of the mind and the pride of life. It is not the new nature which is tempted to sin, it is the old nature. It is not the new nature who doubts, it is the old nature. It is not the new nature who encounters fear and depression, it is the old nature. It is not the new nature who clashes with other people in a power struggle, it is the old nature. It is not the new nature who uses four letter words, it is the old nature. It is not the new nature who thinks evil thoughts or does evil things, it is the old nature. It is not the new nature who envies, covets, lies, steals, shows indifference, it is the old nature. Every believer ought to thank the Lord for the death of the old nature on Calvary.

The believer, partaking of the divine nature, has within this nature the characteristics of Christ, and while the old nature dies a second death when the physical end comes, the new nature at last is released and is instantly in the presence of Christ. The conflict will be over and unadulterated joy will be the experience. Until then, the battle rages between the divine nature and the worldly nature.

The divine nature goes through a learning process and as time goes on should be better able to demonstrate Christ-like characteristics. As time goes on the new nature should learn how to control the old nature.

THE LUMP

While this may not be a title of the new nature, it is a description of its essence. The Lump is in contrast to the Leaven of the old nature. “Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaventh the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us.” (I Corinthians 5:6-7)

Leaven is a type of the sin nature and it always threatens to interfere with the new nature and push it aside. The word “lump” means that a believer is to be like a loaf of bread. The old leaven nature has a tendency to contribute evil to other people. Sin, in most cases, is a learned process. The carnal mind passes filth on to others. The old nature is an apt student of sin, and when the old nature learns how to sin he immediately wants to share it with someone else.

As soon as Satan introduced the old nature to Eve a sequence of disaster followed. She saw the fruit, she took the fruit, and she ate the fruit, but she did not stop there. Satan encourages the old nature to keep on going on, so, in accord with this basic characteristic, she gave the fruit to Adam.

While there are many natural attributes of the old nature which are expressed in a child, such as temper, selfishness, bitterness, vengeance and defiance, there are also many things which are learned by example of others. These include, lying, swearing, drunkenness, fornication, adultery and stealing. So each generation passes along to the succeeding generation the corruption which can be traced back to Adam and Eve.

Satan, of course, is the constant teacher of these subjects. When the birth from above takes place, instead of the corrupt leaven only, there is a new loaf, as it were, brought into existence. Bread is for eating, and when a believer meets someone else, he is to feed that someone from his new nature. We see this at its highest level in Christ, as He said He was the Bread of Life. People fed on Him. The believer, as a member of His Body, is related to the Bread of Life, and others around Him should be able to feed on the spiritual food which flows from his inner man.

A Christian, after several months of agony, when to a fellow believer and said, “I’m sure you recall the evening that I met you in the restaurant? Remember, Bill Mott’s name came up. I had a run-in with Bill shortly after than, and my old nature really got the best of me. I was angry and wanted revenge.

“So that night I was not only critical, but I passed along to you vicious gossip. I brought in the name of Bill’s wife and his three children, and put them down. I told you I didn’t think he should be serving on the church board or teaching Sunday school. I became his judge and jury. He lost the case as far as I was concerned, when I passed along the verdict to you. Even if some of the things I said were true, I had no right to say them, for all of us have the weaknesses of the old nature, and we are to be ministers of the grace of God rather than ambassadors of the weaknesses of the flesh.

“Some of the things I told you were exaggerations, and as much as I hate to admit it, some of those things were just plain lies. I know I influenced you against Bill, and I understand that you told some others the things I said. I don’t blame you. I was at fault.”

It is obvious that such as confession on the part of the new nature of the old nature’s activities would be very rare. The pride of the old nature will battle the new nature against such as admission of error. Most Christians are quick to feed other people from their old natures, and unless their new natures are strong, few people will be able to feed on the spiritual vigor of the new nature, but his is what God wants.

How beautifully the Holy Spirit put it in Colossians 4:6 “Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.”

As salt brings the flavor out of good food, so grace ought to flavor the fruit of our lips and our minds, so that when we talk to people they receive from us the blessings of the new nature, and not the corruptions of the old nature.

We live in a world which is falling apart economically, socially and emotionally. The people in this world do not know what they need. Christians do know what the world needs: the world needs Christ. How then can this world know about Christ unless Christians break the Bread of Life and also give of themselves in love to those who are without Christ? Christians are members of the Body of Christ, baptized into the Body by the Holy Spirit. “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.” (I Corinthians 12:13)

We are to be the voices crying in the wilderness and the Lord tells us that we are to proclaim the Word and to pray for a dead world, so that out of this valley of dry bones there may be a spiritual birth in the lives of those who chose to receive Christ. Witnessing is sharing spiritual food to the starved. This aspect of our new natures has to do primarily with giving ourselves away to fill the needs of others.

THE NEW MAN

The title “the new man” is applied to the new nature in contrast to “the old man.” The old man, born of corrupt parents is at enmity against God. The new man was brought into the world by the Holy Spirit at a later date.

Suppose a person is 47 years old. Not only is that the age of the body, but also the age of the old nature. Supposed he meets Christ when he is seventeen. This the second birthday of his life; the birthday of his new nature. He new nature is thus thirty years old.

“…put on the new man, which after God, is created in righteousness and true holiness.” (Ephesians 4:24)

“…put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created him.” (Colossians 3:10)

In contrast to the old nature, the new nature is out of his environment. He is a citizen of heaven and the atmosphere in which the Christian lives is antagonistic and hostile to growth. The new man know he should study the Word of God, but the old man keeps him too busy to do so. The new man knows that he should be a peacemaker, but the old man thrives on controversy. The new man knows he should love people and witness, but the old man doesn’t care. The new man knows he should be a hilarious joyful giver because of Christ, but the old man sees that the money is spent for things he wants. The new man know he should be temperate in all things, but the old many says “get what you want and as much as you want.” The new man says “Faith is the key,” but the old man doubts. The new man says “don’t criticize, “ but the old man criticizes. The new man says “be of good cheer,” but the old man says “don’t do anything unless you get something out of it.” The new many says “cast all you care upon Christ,” but he old man says “worry about it.” The new man says “I should be serving the Lord,” but the old man says “you don’t have any talent.” The new man says “I’m important to God,” but the old man says “God has forgotten you.”

We learn several things from the verses at the beginning of this section. Perhaps the most important is this: the spirituality of a believer does not come from an attempt, by the old nature, to become a good Christian, or a better Christian. Yet, how often we hear these term.

A teenage girl who had spent two weeks at a summer Bible conference said, after being home several months, “When I cam home I was determined to be a good Christian. I tried. I really tried, but the harder I tried the more I failed.”

The mistake the girl made was “trying,” for the old nature will not be altered, no matter how great the effort. God gave up on the old nature and killed it with Christ. “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.” (Romans 6:6) So the key is to know that the old nature is dead. Consider it dead and keep it in its coffin.

The Lord has created in this new man God’s own righteousness and true holiness. While the old may persecute and try to beat the new man to death, the Lord says He is able to keep the new man from falling and to present him without blemish and without spot to Himself.

The spiritual nature compares his attitudes, feelings and actions with the Word of God, for doctrine, for correction, for instruction in righteousness (II Timothy 3:16). The victory belongs to the new and not the old.

We found, in relationship to the inner man, that he is renewed day by day. We found also that the new may be renewed in knowledge. This delightful potential is always presented to the believer. The old man cannot lock us into a defeated position unless we choose to let him. His hold upon us can be broken by infusing the new man with the knowledge which God gives him from His Word.

The old man attacks suddenly, using unfair tactics, inspired by Satan to destroy the believer’s mind and emotions, but the believer can escape by understanding his position in Christ; that he is more than a conqueror and that nothing can separate him from the love of God in Christ. “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” (II Corinthians 10:13)

We don’t want to infer that this is easy, for it is not. Many sincere Christians have encountered periods of time when it seemed impossible to cope with life. The key is not so much escaping the loneliness, depression, discouragement or self pity, as it is in accepting it as the activity of the old nature. The new nature, with this understanding of the hostility of the old nature, can then, with supportive help, prevent the old nature from overwhelming his outlook.

There are times when the old nature can drain the joy out of life, but never to the point of hoplessness or helplessness, if the new nature is consistently strengthened by the Word.

Timothy

April 28th, 2003, 03:36 PM

THE SPIRITUAL

There is a close kinship between the three titles of the new nature: “the spirit,” “the spiritual,” and the “Spirit of Christ.” We have already discussed the spirit. We will now discuss the spiritual, and we will later discuss the Spirit of Christ later on.

The title, “spirit,” as we saw, indicates that the Holy Spirit is the parent of the spirit nature in John 3:6. “The spiritual,” as we find in I Corinthians 2:15, indicates something else. “…he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.”

The spirit is the substance of the new nature, and the spiritual is the essence of the new nature. The spiritual aspect of the spirit nature has to do with his intake of spiritual truth as we see in I Corinthians 2:13. “Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth: comparing spiritual things with spiritual.”

The desire of the spiritual nature is to constantly be checking in with spiritual things. What are these spiritual things? These spiritual things are the eternal truths God sets forth in His Word. The spiritual nature compares its attitudes, feeling and action with the Word of God for doctrine, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, as we have already stated, but we emphasize it again. Spirituality thus comes from an alignment with spiritual truths. Don’t treat this lightly. A believer who attempts to become spiritual be going on an emotional binge is doomed for defeat. He may have an interesting experience for a day, a week, or perhaps a month, but it cannot last.

Spiritual growth comes from the spiritual man partaking of spiritual truth and growing in grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. The old nature may well enjoy a peppy quartert number, a rousing choir piece or a humorous sermon. The old nature may well enjoy the church socials, the outings, and the froth which so often accompanies Christianity. The old nature may well enjoy the sensationalism, the excitement of great numbers of people and great appeals which bring tears to the eyes. The old nature may go so far as to enjoy a message from the Bible as long as there is no attack on him.

None of these things contribute one wit to the spiritual man. All of these things may be enjoyed by the new nature, but they are not necessary for growth. It is only through the study of the Word of God that the spiritual man will grow.

A major ministry of the spiritual man is found in Galatians 6:1 “Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such a one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself lest thou also be tempted.”

This has to do with the spiritual man help another Christian when the other Christian’s old nature has produced something filthy in his life. It goes on to say that the spiritual man is to help the other Christian with the problem his old nature has created. This is to be done in meekness and trembling, for we are told that the spiritual Christian may be overtaken in the same fault.

How often do we see this supportive help demonstrated in Christian circles? Sadly enough, seldom. Observe some member of a church falling into sin. What do other Christians do? Do they rush to the fallen Christian, restoring him with love and gentleness? No, what we see instead is criticism, shocked horror, self-righteousness, and mock concern. We see gossip and division and quite often we see the fallen believer shamed out of the church.

But the Lord instructs the spiritual believer to take upon himself the sin of the weak believer, as Christ took our sin upon Himself. We are told that as Christ forgave, so we are to forgive. As Christ loved the unlovely, so we are to love the unlovely. The the body of Christ would be truly united.

Another ministry of the spiritual nature is set forth in Romans 1:11, “For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established.” Paul desired to get to Rome to impart them some spiritual gift he had for them.

Every Christian has the responsibility of discovering what he has that Christ gave him to be give to other. This is a basic test of a Christian’s spirituality. How anxious is he to contribute some spiritual gift to another believer and how successful is he in giving it?

Paul had to write to the Corinthian church, “I could not speak unto you as spiritual, but as unto carnal…” What a pity that Christians can let themselves be so controlled by the old nature that they are beyond the place where spiritual gifts mean anything to them!

THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST

We have seen the work of the Holy Spirit in giving the new nature to a person who receives the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour. (John 3:6) We have also seen that His essence in production is seen in the title, “spiritual,” as applied to believers. (I Corinthians 2:13) We also know the Holy Spirit feeds the believer His fruit. (Galatians 5:22-23)

The new nature is not only associated with the Holy Spirit, but it is also associated with the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ. “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.” (Romans 8:9)

While the Spirit of God, and the Spirit of Christ may not be titles of the new nature, these phrases give us insight into the believer’s relationship, in his new nature, to God the Father and God the Son. John 1:12 states that the believer becomes a son of God, and we might say: “Like Father, like son.” How can this be true? The phrase in Romans 8:9, “If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His,” indicates that it is by the Spirit of Christ that the Christian has, in his new nature, and identity with the Son of God. Often the believer is told that he is in Christ, and that Christ is in him, thus, it follows that if the Spirit of Christ, Who is the Son, dwells in the believer, the believer takes on the sonship relationship. John tells us that we are now Sons of God. (I John 3:2)

A whole stream of truth issues from this fact: our life is hidden with Christ, in God. Thus, in the Son, we are son, and we receive, as members of the Body of Christ, a host of wonderful things; not the least of which is sonship itself. We are “accepted by God in the Beloved,” or in Christ.

In I Corinthians 1:30 we see four things that are ours because we are in Him. “But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption.”

Our spiritual natures are protected mentally and emotionally in Christ. “And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.” (Philippians 4:7)

Our spiritual natures receive the love of God because we are in the Son. “Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God; there fore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.” (I John 3:1)

A sons we have future blessing unlimited, amoung which is the resurrection body. “Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself.” (Philippians 3:21)

We will be partakers of His glory. “And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ, if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also glorified together.” (Romans 8:17)

CONCLUSION

The titles of the old nature indicate the depravity, the filth, the sin that dwells in every human being. God considers each one equally guilty. When a person received Christ, the old nature is not cleaned up, but the old nature is considered dead by God.

A new creation is instantly given. At that moment the person becomes two people and conflict begins. This conflict is relentless and brutal, for the two natures are in competition for the mind, the emotions and the body. The great comfort lies in the fact that once a person has received Jesus Christ as Saviour he is related to Christ and is eternal. He is secure.

When the battle is over the glory of waiting for the believer will be beyond the greatest expectations of the believer.

Araxis777

April 28th, 2003, 09:19 PM

Timothy!!!! Brother

I thank God for you finding my thread on Lust and leading me to this one.I made a word file of all your findings and am going to start researching it deeper.

God Bless You and keep spreading the word!!

Jason

anotherbrother

April 29th, 2003, 09:03 AM

Thank you for posting this.

He should realize the conflict is personal and goes on twenty-four hours a day and will go on until the rapture, or the departure of the Christian by death. The old nature will never surrender in any situation. The old nature will intimidate and manipulate until he gets his way.

In my experience when I grasped the concept that this is in fact a PERSONAL conflict I was finally able to realize the scope of the battle within me.

"Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world." 1 John 4:4

Recognizing and relying on Christ in me to fight this very personal battle was and still is the key for me.

You may consider sharing this with those folks on the "We That Struggle" board. This may be a very useful tool and encouragement for them.

Thanks again and...

Praise the Lord!

Arabesque

April 29th, 2003, 10:20 AM

Thank you for posting more of this. I've been feeling a bit confused, unworthy and depressed the past couple of days, and this definitely helped.

Timothy

April 29th, 2003, 09:29 PM

Segment/Chapter Six
The Battle

“I’ve given up,” the man said. “What’s the use? It’s not that I didn’t try. When I received Christ as my Saviour I really believed that I had found the answer. I stopped drinking. My problems with my wife and eighteen year old son seemed to be resolved and my job went better. When I say my job went better, what I mean is, I held a job that I was going to love because of my drinking; and my language change.”

“So what happened?” the counselor asked.

“The way I figure it,” the man’s voice reflected his desperation, “the whole thing was an emotional binge. It was a nice three months, but I guess I was drugged with the romance and the excitement of whatever experience I had. During that time I was repeatedly thankful for my deliverance. I thanked the Lord privately and told everybody publicly.”

He went on, “Then the bubble burst. I can remember when it happened. It was a Saturday. I was washing the car. My son was helping me, but he wasn’t doing a good job. I told him. I felt I told him nicely, but he didn’t take it that way and almost instantly the rapport I had had with him for three months was gone. He sassed me. I lost my temper. My wife took my son’s side. Before I knew it the old language returned and all the things I thought were gone forever came back.

“My wife, who was skeptical about my relationship with Christ, put the icing on the cake when she said, “I didn’t think your experience was real in the first place. You’re no different than you ever were. If that’s your brand of Christianity I don’t want any part of it.”

“Before the afternoon was over my son had packed his clothes and moved in with his married sister. My wife was threatening divorce again and I went out and got drunk.”

He started with morbid wretchedness, his right hand resting on the arm of the chair. “I’ve asked the question hundreds of times, ‘How could Christ let me down like this?’ I was so sincere; so excited.”

“And you’re blaming the Lord?” the counselor asked.

“Yes, I am.”

“Well, that’s wrong. It wasn’t the Lord’s fault, it was yours. Let me ask you some questions. Did you pray immediately? Did you open your Bible and receive spiritual instruction? No, you got angry. You got drunk. The following day was Sunday. Did you go to church as listen to a Bible oriented message? Did you receive immediate counseling to help you over this difficult time? Did you continue fellowshipping with Christian friends? And this is a very strange question, but an important one: did you attribute your actions to your old nature and did you permit your new nature to take over at any time since then?”

“I prayed,” the man said.

“How did you pray?”

“I prayed that my son would see that I was trying to help him because he is lazy. I prayed that my wife would see that her loyalty was supposed to be with me and not with my son.”

“And while you were praying these things,” the counselor said, “you were blaming God for the whole thing.”

The man said defensively, “Look, I didn’t want this to happen! Isn’t God big enough to take control of those things? I had three of the happiest months in my life before that.”

The counselor opened his Bible to Galatians 5:16 and read, “This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.” When he had finished he asked, “Isn’t it true that on that Saturday afternoon you walked after the flesh instead of walking after the Spirit? By walking, I mean you followed the desires of your ego-centric flesh nature. When you corrected your son your voice was probably arrogant. The words you used were probably not corrective, but a put-down. While your wife many not have been right, it was probably also true that you became defensive and hostile instead of giving a soft answer which would have turned away wrath.

“After the major fray was over you undoubtedly became sorry for yourself, bathed yourself in self pity, and obviously going out and drinking was simply an excuse to fulfil your old nature’s determination to destroy our testimony.

“Instead of walking after the flesh, if you had walked after the Spirit, as the verse instructs, the incident would have been closed and you would have not lost the victory.”

“You’re talking was though I were two people.”

“You are. The Bible calls the Christian you, the new man; and the non-Christian you, the old man.”

Incidents like this one are common. Young believers are often tricked by Satan shortly after their salvation when he causes the flesh to become suddenly hungry. In its lust to fulfil its hunger the joy of the Christian life is broken. Not only does this occur in the young believers, but every believer, regardless of age, faces the constant threat of the rebellion of the old nature against the new nature. This rebellion is subtle; sometimes very slow, but often it’s sudden and chaotic. Once the flesh gets a grip on the body and the person commits a series of violations.

In Romans 13:14 a positive instruction is given to every believer. “…put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fufil the lust thereof.” No believer should make provision for the flesh, but he does, lust feeds on lust. The old nature becomes unbridled and takes over.

The consistency of every Christian’s life is always threatened by this takeover. The takeover occurs most of the time unexpectedly, although there have been and will be Christians who say in essence, “I don’t care,” and walk after the flesh with no apparent misgivings. This is because the new nature is so weak in those lives it has no opportunity to express itself and thus lives caged in, locked up and unproductive.

In an effort to teach every believer the truth of the doctrine of the two natures and to show how they counteract each other, the Lord has given us a brilliant, supernatural analysis of the conflict through the Apostle Paul in Romans 7.

The spectacular portion of Scripture should be consumed and perhaps even memorized, for it is basic to the understanding and enjoyment of the Christian life.

There are approximately twenty references to the old nature and twenty references to the new nature in this section. Collectively the word “I” is used twenty-seven times; sixteen times it designates the action of the new nature and eleven times it designates the action of the old nature.

“For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin.” (Romans 7:14)

This scripture explains why, when we want to do good, we do evil. It is the record of the experience of every honest believer.

Paul introduces the subject by an amazing confession. He states simply and frankly that he is carnal. This carnality was a vigorous force within him and kept him actively related to worldliness. His carnality was scarlet and black with sin in contrast to the Law which was spiritual. The old nature does not respond to the World of God. Paul said his old nature, as carnal, was gripped in sin. His new nature delighted in the Law of God. So he found himself pulled in two directions. The “I” in this verse designates the old nature.

“For that which I do, I allow not: for what I would, that I do not; but what I hate, that do I.” (Romans 7:15)

Paul said there were things which he did in his old nature, that his new nature would not allow to happen, yet the happened. He was saying that his new nature could not see or understand why his old nature did the things that it did. It was much like the college girl who said, “It were as though my spiritual life stood to one side and observed the stupidity of what my old nature was getting me into. I couldn’t believe that I was letting these things happen to me.”

Paul went on to say that his new nature wanted one thing, but that his old nature did the opposite.

There are three couplets in this verse and the second couplet introduces the word, “would.” We will find that in its root meaning it is used seven times in these verses. It describes the yearning of the new nature to act in a righteous manner and means, “to wish,” “to desire,” “to will.”

Paul goes on to say in the third couplet that his new nature actually hated the things his old nature did, but his old nature, in spite of the new nature’s resistance, went ahead and performed the hateful things. Certainly, in the light of this verse, the sensible Christian will recognize the awesome power of the operation of the old nature in his daily life. If it weren’t for the promise of the ultimate victory, the struggle would be horrifying. Every believer ought to thank God that, “…our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.” (Romans 6:6)

Our identification with Christ on Calvary by faith makes this truth effective in our lives. Again, we ought to thank God that he sees our old natures as dead.

The first, fourth and sixth “I” in this verse refer to the old nature. The second, third, and fifth usages of the word “I” to the new nature.

“If then I do that which I would not: I consent unto the law that it is good.” (Romans 7:16)

Paul, in viewing his experience, looks at the Law and finds that it defines sin, and he consents that what the Law asks for is reasonable.

Already in the Book of Romans Paul indicated that the Law is a definition of sin. “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” (Romans 3:20) “What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the Law: for I had not known lust, except the Law had said, Thou shalt not covet.” (Romans 7:7) Now, even his old nature consents that the Law is reasonable and good.

This brings out an interesting truth; unregenerate mankind knows that something is wrong with humanity. He tries to compensate for these wrong things by making laws of his own. He legislates against stealing, adultery and murder, but without success because the Adamic, carnal man cannot contain itself.

The believer’s old nature may acknowledge that God’s law is good, but that does not mean that he will obey it; and he doesn’t obey it. Any intelligent Christian quickly would agree that his old nature is subject to lying, coveting and to other dangerous sins.

In this verse the first and third “I” refer to the old nature and the second “I” refers to the new nature. It should be noted that the last “I” in the verse could conceivably refer to the new nature; it doesn’t influence or change the meaning at all.

“Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.” (Romans 7:17)

Paul comes to a conclusion. He knew that there were times when sin took over his life. He knew that this sin could not stem from the new nature. Led by the Holy Spirit, he came to understand that when these things occurred it was not his relationship with Christ that was in jeopardy; it was not his Christianity that was threatened, but it was the old nature in action.

Another fact is brought out here. The sin of the old nature dwells in the body. It is waiting for an opportunity to exercise its lust. It is a constant stumbling block to the tranquility of the Christian life. How can it be controlled? Paul gives the answer in I Corinthians 9:26-27 “I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air; but I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.”

Here Paul explains how his old nature was running against his new nature. He also uses another illustration from the sporting world showing how the new nature fights the old nature with effectiveness to subdue him. He then states that he brings his body into subjection, as a wild animal trainer controls the bear or the lion and brings it under the discipline of the whip. So Paul speaks of his old nature.

What is the whip which subdues the wild tendencies of the flesh? There is but one answer. It is the world of God as taught by the Holy Spirit to the new nature. The new nature will grow healthy while studying the Bible, and the old nature will lose its effectiveness. It should be remembered, however, that if the old man is given an inch, he will dominate. The “I” in this verse refers to the new nature.

“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.” (Romans 7:18)

Paul again repeats a truth he has already learned. The heritage he received from his ancestors could be traced back to Adam and the flesh nature which Adam gave man contained no good thing.

How the flesh nature rebels against this statement! Christians of long standing find that the pride of the old nature resists any acknowledgement of wrong, but God has said that his is true, and it is true.

King David committed several hideous sins, but it wasn’t until he was challenged by Nathan that he admitted his old nature had, indeed, accomplished evil.

Life would be fare more enjoyable if the Christian would grit his teeth and let it be known that his old nature was always a potential evil door, but the Christian, in his old nature, would rather say, “I’m only human,” “I’m no worse than anyone else,” “It was the natural thing to do,” “It was the only thing I could do under the circumstances,” or a variety of other statements which are commonly used as crutches.”

Paul went on to say that his new nature was willing; wishfully desiring to do right, but that his old nature refused to peform that which was good. Galatians 5:17 is descriptive of what was going on in Paul’s life. “…the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other; so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.”

It is sad but true; the old nature will never cooperate with righteousness. The old nature may imitate the virtues of the new nature, but always with his own selfish end in view.

In this verse the first “I” refers to the new nature, and the second “I” refers to the old nature.

“For the good that I would, I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.” (Romans 7:19)

The spiritual nature that Paul received when he placed his faith in Jesus Christ wanted to produce good works. Paul knew this, for he wrote in Ephesians 2:10 “We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

The vicious old nature interfered with this purpose of God. Paul knew it. We modern day believers better know it, too, and understand it, because if we don’t know it there will be no joy, no peace, no contentment. When the truth is known the Christian can almost laugh at the antics of the old nature, for he will know that God’s explanation of the problem is a victorious one.

Timothy

April 29th, 2003, 09:30 PM

We should add here that this portion of Scripture demonstrates the supernatural source of this divine information; for no man on an earthly level could possibly understand what is going on. How unregenerate man has struggled with the problem! The religions of the world have tried to cope with it. Philosophy has offered its humanistic answers with nothing but failure. The medical world has advanced it theories, with out success. Theoretical science and anthropologist have attributed the problem to the animal ancestry of man, but they’ve done it without any valid proof. But God, in a few words, reveals the truth that sets the Christian free!

The first and the third “I” in this verse refer to the new nature, the second and fourth “I” refer to the old nature.

“Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.” (Romans 7:30)

Paul for emphasis, repeats what he said before. He acknowledges that in his new nature he is blameless, without spot, and made the righteousness of God in Christ. He also acknowledges that his gluttonous, lustful flesh within him is capable of sin and that from time to time this sin would break out and perform its evil work.

The first “I” refers to the old nature, the second and third “I” refer to the new nature.

“I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.” (Romans 7:21)

Here we discover the absolute operation of the old and new natures. They both dwell in the body of the believer. Their antagonism toward one another is relentless. They will never choose the name path. They will never make the same decisions. Paul’s new nature could be completely desirous of doing the right thing, and yet lurking in the shadows of his mind and emotions were the sinister thoughts and feelings of his old nature.

What was true of Paul is true of us. The old nature is a powerful enemy. He delights in being tempted to do evil. He delights in doing evil. The new nature enjoys being obedient to God’s will. This verse demonstrates that it is not easy.

The two “I’s” in this verse refer to the new nature.

“For I delight in the law of God after the inward man.” (Romans 7:22)

Paul declared the law to be spiritual in verse 14, for the law never made any unreasonable demands on man, yet the carnality of the old nature prevents the law from being fulfilled on a fleshly level. Paul here states clearly that his new nature delighted in the law of God in contrast to the actions of the old nature. It is true that the new nature automatically accepts and does what the law commands. The new nature therefore doesn’t need the law. In fact, not only does the new nature not need the law, it is not under the law. Love and grace are the motivating forces for obedience. “What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.” (Romans 6:15) “But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.” (Romans 7:6)

The believer is left with but one commandment and that is to love. It is interesting to see how the law of love actually does for the present day believer all that the ten commandments demanded.

If a person loves the Lord he will put nothing ahead of his devotion for Him.

If a person loves the Lord he will not use His name in vain.

If a person loves his parents he will show them respect.

If a person loves another he will not kill him.

If a person loves another he will not commit adultery with the other’s mate.

If a person loves another he will not steal from him.

If a person loves another he will not say untrue things about him.

If a person loves another he will not covet what the other has.

The inner man is delighted with this law of love, and this love is extended toward the Lord God Almighty, the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. This love extends to his mate. It extends to his brothers and sister in Christ, and it even extends to his enemies.

The one “I” in this verse refers to the new nature.

“But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.” (Romans 7:23)

In spite of the fact that Paul recognized that his inner man loved the law and conformed to it, he brings out the hideous fact that the old nature is obsessed with obedience to the law of rebellion, of opposition, or self-righteousness; and this law has its gratification in the body. The fleshly lusts will often bring the believer into captivity to the law of sin.

So the old nature knows no law of God, but it is aware of the law of Satan. The new nature delights in the law of God, and rejects the law of Satan. The war goes on, and until the believer dies or is raptured the war will go on.

The believer has the victory because Christ has absolutely promised that He is able to keep the new nature sinless, blameless, and faultless in spite of what the old nature does.

The “I” in this verse refers to the new nature.

“O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” (Romans 7:24)

Paul apparently knew of a nation that had a custom of tying a body of a murdered person to the murderer. This is much like the Christian. Whether we like it or not, we have to carry about in us the old , dead nature. Spiritually we have bee liberated, and yet we carry the burden of sin witnin us. Is it any wonder that Paul thanked God for Christ and what Christ did in relationship to the law of sin and death? “…the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.” (Romans 8:2)

Yes, the victory is ours, but we have to wait for awhile to celebrate it completely.

The “I” in this verse refers to the old nature.

“I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.” (Romans 7:25)

Paul comes to a conclusion. The Lord revealed to him that he was two people. He was carnal in his old nature; spiritual in his new nature. He was born of the flesh and he was born of the Spirit. He was a natural man, but he was a spiritual man. He had an old man within him, and a new man. He had a carnal mind and a pure mind. He was two people. Christ had died for his old man and given him a new creation – the new man.

So he was a paradox. With his spiritual nature he served the law of God, but with the flesh nature he served the law of sin.

The Christian life is thus seen as a battle; but no action of the old nature could destroy God’s love for the believer. No promise would be withdrawn because of the actions of the old nature. While the believer’s experience may be a troubled one, his position is glorified and eternal. While his state maybe one of confusion, his standing is one of tranquility.

The two “I’s” in this verse refer to the new nature.

Paul, led by the Holy Spirit breaks out in a believer’s song in Romans 8:1 “There is therefore no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.”

CONCLUSION

What a remarkable explanation this portion of Scripture gives to the earnest Christian! It is a message of liberation; for the Son of God has made us free. The best is yet to be. The wondrous day will come when, in the presence of Christ, the old nature will no longer harass the believer. The carnality of the flesh will have disappeared. There will be no more temptation to sin. We will have our glorified bodies enter into the full joy of being citizens of Heaven.

To this we can only add, Hallelujah and Amen!

Timothy

April 29th, 2003, 09:48 PM

Only two segements left to go, I think!!

Regarding this segment, and the "battle," I just wanted to share some additional verses and things that came to mind.

Our battle is spiritual, over things we do not see. The battle is for our minds and thoughts - literally every thought! No pun intended, but that is something to think about!!

II Corinthians 5:7 "For we walk by faith, not by sight"

II Corinthians 10:3-5 "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ"

We renew our new man through knowledge.

Colossians 3:10 "And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him"

Over and over, Paul empahsizes "know," "knowing," "knowledge," etc.

Colossians 3:16-17 "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him."

This verse says it all on how we are to live. First, by knowledge in the word of God. Second, with grace. Third, giving thanks for everything and anything. So an older brother in Christ once told me: we are saved by grace and live in the dispensation of grace, right? Paul tells us our attitude should be "giving thanks," right? So our grace attitude = gratitude.

Timothy

April 29th, 2003, 10:02 PM

There are many examples in scripture where the written word is equated as having the same attributes as the living word (Christ). Have you ever thought about this verse? When we read the word of God, it is reading us!

Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

Here are some additional passages on our "mind":

Romans 8:5-6 "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace."

Romans 12:2 "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

I Corinthians 2:16 "For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."

II Corinthians 11:3 "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

Ephesians 4:17 "This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind"

Philippians 2:5 "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus"

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

II Timothy 1:7 "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."

Timothy

April 29th, 2003, 10:08 PM

Galatians 6:3 "For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself."

II Cornithians 10:12 "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."

II Corinthians 3:5 "Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God"

Philippians 4:8 "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things"

Timothy

April 29th, 2003, 10:50 PM

Before moving on, since the topic just posted was "The Battle," I wanted to share and discuss the process of sin and sinning.

Many years ago, I saw these three passages compared side by side, as it relates to the temptation of sin. Is "interesting" as the three passages span the length of the Bible, and are in "parallel." Sorry about the periods - I could not get a table to create properly.

........GENESIS 3.......MATTHEW 4..........I JOHN 2
BODY....Good for food...Stones for bread...Lust of flesh
SOUL....Eye pleasing....Cast self down.....Lust of eyes
SPIRIT..Desired wisdom..Rule kingdoms......Pride of life

Now in thinking of how Satan and the sin process works, and comparing the two, they are opposite.
Satan and sin work from the outside in, all starting with our flesh.

God works from the inside out. It all starts with knowledge and thoughts. Feelings and actions follow thoughts and knowledge.

BODY SOUL SPIRIT
---> ---> ---> SATAN
<--- <--- <--- GOD

As far as the steps leading to sin, I've had these "steps" of listed in my Bible for some time. I'm fairly certain that I either have notes on this in my files and/or it came from an old book in my (personal) library. I'll see about digging it out, as I recall passages that go with it, etc.

1 - PRESENTATION
2 - ILLUMINATION (FAITH RESPONDS HERE)
3 - DEBATE (ONCE DEBATED, SIN OCCURS i.e. 3, 4, 5)
4 - DECISION
5 - ACTION

Gods Trombone

May 1st, 2003, 08:50 AM

Rom. 8:1
II Cor. 10:5
ICor. 2:16
II Cor. 11:3
Phil. 2:5
Gal. 6:3
II Cor. 10:12
II Cor. 3:5

These scriptures can illustrate my emphasis that only the works Jesus is able to do *in us* are good works, and worthy works.

These works will not be "burned up."

Even works done by the "new creation" are not worthy if not Jesus own works *in us*.

I hope this helps someone as it helps me understand Paul's revelation.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

BHiles

May 1st, 2003, 01:01 PM

The very heart that gives one permission to commit sin will immediately upon the commission, point its finger at you in disgust and accuse you, then after a short period of time start rationalizing will once again give permission to commit the sin again.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Timothy

May 2nd, 2003, 10:55 PM

Segment/Chapter 7
The Two Natures and Prayer

One of the easiest ways to cause a Christian to feel guilty is to ask him how much time he spends in prayer each day. The average Christian would be embarrassed if you were to ask for the last spectacular answer to prayer he had experienced.

The Bible tells us that prayer is to be a vital factor in the believer’s life. Yet, in this area, perhaps more than in any other, the Christian encounters problems which rob him of any sense of satisfaction. Some Christians are so confused and disillusioned with prayer that their lives are, in a sense, prayerless.

One woman, a teacher of a Sunday school class, admitted, “Long ago I gave up on prayer. I prayed for almost eighteen years about the most precious thing in my life and the Lord didn’t answer. I’m not sure He ever heard. If He did, He never gave me my satisfaction. I almost lost my faith because of it. So, rather than be hurt again, I decided never to ask God for another thing.”

She went on, “When I was a girl I felt I was called to the mission field, but I met a man in college, married and settled down with my husband. I felt very guilty about not going to the mission field, so I told the Lord that if I ever had a child I would dedicate that child to go in my place.

“When I became pregnant I prayed every day and when my baby girl was born I continued to pray daily for her future. This continued until she was seventeen. At that time my daughter ran away from home and married a boy who was not a Christian.

“Up to this time my daughter had told me that, yes, she was going to the mission field. When my daughter finally came home with her husband I took her aside and asked her how she could go against God’s will for her life.

“’Mother,’ she said to me, ‘maybe when I was four or five years old I wanted to go to the mission field, not knowing what it was all about but ever since I can remember I haven’t wanted to go to the mission field, and I had no intention of going.’

“’Why,” I asked here, ‘did you tell me all these years that you were going to go?’

‘”I know that was what you wanted to hear,’ the daughter replied. ‘I said it to keep you off my back.’

“I asked my daughter if she wasn’t afraid God would call her to account for her refusal to go. She was indifferent. That’s why I stopped praying.”

A glance at this woman’s experience reveals a number of erroneous factors. If she had been called to the mission field she had been wrong in not going. She had no right to assume that a substitute could take her place. She had no right to appeal to God to control her daughter’s life; she had not been willing to be controlled. She was wrong in assuming that if here daughter went, her own guilt would have been lifted. She was wrong in assuming that the Lord didn’t hear, or didn’t care, or was unable to control her daughter. She had no right to give her daughter a conscience about not going to the mission field.

Yet, this Christian woman blamed God for years; not once recognizing that she was wrong.

The flaws in this woman’s prayer life are obvious, but all Christians must face the fact that their prayer lives may have flaws just as obvious when they understand the doctrine of prayer in relationship to the two natures.

Millions of Christians pray for divine healing, and do not receive relief. Young people, unschooled in the principles of prayer, often ask the Lord to make some boy or girl fall in love with them, to no avail. Parents constantly pray that their children will cause them no trouble, but their children do cause them trouble. Christian pray that their children will be moral and spiritual, and collapse in dismay when those children turn their back on Christ and go the way of the world. Christians pray for safe journeys and trouble free trips, but in spite of their prayers, they have accidents and problems on the way.

How many churches pray for an increase in attendance on Wednesday evenings, or for the salvation of souls, with no marked results? Christians are always asking for jobs, or clear days for picnics, or for their mates who are giving them problems. Students pray for good marks and fail; not because God didn’t answer their prayer, but because they hadn’t studied.

A man stood by his wife’s coffin. “I prayed every day that my wife would stop drinking,” he said through his tears. “I’ve been praying for forty years, but she never stopped. If only God had answered my prayers she would still be alive.”

Innumerable Christians, while they might not confess it openly, are secretly bitter against God for His apparent lack of response to their prayers. How can we account for the confusion encountered by Christians in this important matter? If God is Almighty, why can’t He do the impossible, or at least, why doesn’t He do the impossible? If God loves the Christian, why doesn’t He ease the pain, the sorrow; why doesn’t He fulfill the need or grant the request to change some corrupt habit of a weak Christian?

These problems concerning the doctrine of prayer can be answered only by a Biblical understanding of the two natures. It may come as a surprise, but it is true that the believer’s old nature delights in praying just as much as his new nature delights in praying.

The similarity stops there, for the old nature, while praying just as vigorously, prays in an entirely different way. The old nature cries out for worldly benefits, comfort, personal fulfillment, physical well being, emotional tranquility and mental achievement.

The Lord knows of the old nature’s prayer life and He places it in sharp focus when pointing out the basic error. “Ye ask, and receive not. Because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.” (James 4:3) The old nature’s prayer life is ego-centric and selfish. In essence, the old nature demands, “I want what I want, God! I want it when I want it, and I want it right now!”

After he graduated from seminary a young man had an offer from a funeral home at a fairly substantial salary. He said, “If God wants me in the ministry He’ll have to supply a church that will give me just as much money. I’ve told the funeral director that I will stay with him permanently if a church doesn’t open up within tow months.”

Another Christian man who was seeking a house in the suburbs said, “If God isn’t big enough to get me a house within my budget range, He’s not every big.”

A single Christian girl was involved with a married Christian man. In defense of her relationship the girl said, “Oh, I prayed about it. He was going to be transferred. I prayed that if I were not supposed to date him he would be transferred. He wasn’t transferred so I’m still going with him.”

A high school senior took a job that kept him away from church on Sundays and Wednesdays. He said, “I know God wants me to have a car. I asked God for a job and this job in the restaurant opened up. After the car’s paid for I’ll be back in church.” He bought the car. Four years have passed and he is still not back in church.

These incidents, all true, border on blasphemy. In each case the individuals claimed God was on their side, even though they were obviously going against His will.

The old nature, when left to his own devices, will cause any Christian to be inconsistent and outright ridiculous in his self-justification for the acts of the flesh.

There is another verse which indicates there is danger in the old nature’s prayer life. “Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit Himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.” (Romans 8:26) It is the Lord who has told us that we don’t know how to pray for things as we ought. The new nature will readily agree with this. The old nature will go on the assumption that this verse does not exist.

What then is the basis for the Christian’s prayer life; and what primary thing should the new nature understand about prayer? The answer will be enjoyed by the new nature, but the old nature in the believer will oppose the answer with uncontrollable vigor.

The Apostle Paul was ordained of God to be a minister, especially to the church, during this present age. “….I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.” (II Timothy 1:11) “…I am made a minister according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the Word of God.” (Colossians 1:24) “Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,” (Ephesians 2:8) “Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.” (I Timothy 2:7) So it is in Paul’s epistles that we find the keys to prayer for this Church age.

It is interesting to note the constant sufferings, dangers and problems Paul encountered as the Apostle to the Gentiles. Why didn’t prayer remove all opposition? Why didn’t we find, creeping into Paul’s prayer life, a desire for creature comforts? When he was broke, why didn’t he ask God to give him a miraculous gift? When he was being pursued by his enemies, why didn’t he ask God to wipe them out? When he was in prison in Rome why didn’t he request God to duplicate his experience at Phillipi of escaping from jail? When he was on his way to Rom and the ship was in danger, why didn’t he pray for the storm to cease?

The answer may come as a shock; but the answer is the only satisfactory one. During this age of grace the Lord’s will for the believer is not so much involved with the physical as with the spiritual.

The old nature shouts, in essence, “God, but my lucky charm! Give me what I want. Lord, I don’t like the way things are going. I don’t like what You’re doing to me. I want you to change Your plan and Your purpose. Please me, Lord. Do things to suit me. Do it my way. Change Your mind, God.

Prayer changes things, but there is one thing prayer does not do: it does not change the mind or will of God. God has a purpose and plan for every Christian. God’s plan was established before the foundation of the earth. God cannot alter His program for any one of His children. All the begging, demanding, threatening, or cajoling on the part of the old nature will not cause God to deviate from His plan.

What then does prayer change?

The Biblically instructed believer does not want God to change His mind about the purpose He has ordained for the Christian. “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hat before ordained that we should walk in them.” (Ephesians 2:10) The believer, in his spirit-filled prayer, says, “Lord, I want Your will to be done. I want to change. I don’t want You to change. I want to be transformed by the renewing of my mind. “….be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God.” (Romans 12:1)

The major emphasis in the believer’s prayer life should be for the will of God. It should be taken a step further. The believer’s prayer life should revolve around this and this alone, “Lord, Thy will be done whatever the cost – by life or by death – Thy will be done.”

Paul, after writing that we don’t know how to pray for things as we ought, tells us that the Holy Spirit is interceding for us with but one thing in mind, and that things is the will of God. “…He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.” (Romans 8:27)

The will of God will often seem contrary to all logic. It may lead the believer into what appear to be insurmountable problems: illness, tragedy, starvation, robbery, chaos. But the intelligent believer listens to the promise of God as the result of doing His will; although for the moment it may seem very unreasonable. For, as Paul says, “And we know that all things work together for god to them that love God, to them who are called according to his purpose.” (Romans 8:28)

Under certain circumstances the believer may suppose for a little while that the Lord is not doing very much, but depend on it, the Lord, Who knows all things, knows what occurs in every believer’s life. He is aware of the believer’s two natures. He is aware of the prayer lives of the two natures; but He will ignore the old nature’s prayer for, in reality, the old nature is not really praying.

The Lord states clearly that the Holy Spirit makes intercession for the believer in Romans 8:26. In verse 34 He tells us that the Lord Jesus Christ also makes intercession for us. So when our new nature prays the Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus Christ also pray for the will of God in that person’s life.

If the will of God is desired, regardless of the depths of despair the believer may encounter, he can rest on this absolute fact, that ultimately all things will work together for good.

How can we know the will of God?

There is only one way to know the will of God. We are to ask for it. And if we ask for it, we should have the absolute confidence that God will supply the information needed.

From whence does this information concerning the will of God come? His will is in His Word. The praying Christian will be a Bible student. He will know that the answers from God come from God’s communication to him: the Bible.

God has talked to us in His Word. The purposes for our lives are revealed there. His will is outlined in detail. There can be no other answer to prayer than what God says to His children who want to know the truth.

“Thy Word is truth,” Christ said (John 17:17) Indeed, God’s Word is truth.

Timothy

May 2nd, 2003, 10:56 PM

Paul, in writing to the Church at Phillipi tells us we are to worry about nothing. Why? Because we can pray about everything. We can make our requests known. “Be careful for nothing; but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep you hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.” (Philippians 4:6-7) Of course, in relationship to our requests, we should always add that over and above all things we want His will.

Our confidence will know no limitations. Our anticipation will be exuberant. “And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to His will, He hearteth us: and if we know that He hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of Him.” (I John 5:14-15)

There is another verse that every believer’s new nature should memorize. Paul wrote to the Church at Colosse, “Continute in prayer, and watch in the same with thanksgiving.” (Colossians 4:2) Here we see an interesting aspect of prayer so often missed. The word “continue” suggests waiting. So we pray, and we wait, and then Paul tells us that we are to watch. Watch for what? Watch for the way the Lord answers our prayers for His will in any particular situation.

This truth is substantiated in Ephesians 6:18, with something added. “Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto will all perseverance and supplication for all saints;” We see here that we are to watch with perseverance. We are to train our minds to concentrate on what we have prayed for and watch to see how God will perform His will in our lives as a result of prayer.

Peter also tells us that after we pray we should watch to see what the Lord is going to do. “….the end of all things is at hand; be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.” (I Peter 4:7)

There is another dimension to prayer which the old nature will never accept. The Lord tells us in I Thessalonians 5:17-18 that the will of God for us to be thankful in all things. “Pray without ceasing. In everything give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.”

The old nature will never thank God for al things. The old nature will not thank God for the adversities of life, for illness, or for privations. The believer’s new nature, knowing that sin if forgiven, knowing that God’s purpose for life may lead through deep waters, also knows that a brilliant, glorious eternity awaits. The believer’s fear is abolished, sin is abolished, death is swallowed up in immortality. The future for the believer, regardless of the problems of this life, is perfect. While we suffer for a little while, there is nothing to be compared to being in the presence of the Lord. The battles will be over, and the ultimate victory will be ours. “For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.” (Romans 8:18)

The Lord knows what He is doing, and each day the spiritual nature of the believer ought to pray, as Christ prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane, “Thy will be done.” (Matthew 26:42)

Not only ought we to be praying for God’s will for our own individual lives, but the Lord instructs us how we ought to pray for others. We find the same fundamental truth; that in praying for others we should pray for God’s will in their lives. “For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding.” (Colossians 1:9) Here we see that Paul uses three words having to do with intellect: knowledge, wisdom and understanding. Our prayer for the other person ought to be that he will open his Bible and have knowledge of God’s will along with wisdom and understanding.

Epaphras, we are told by Paul in Colossians 4:12 prayed for the people that they would stand, “perfect and complete in all the will of God.” It does not necessarily follow that Paul’s and Epaphras’ prayers were answered, for it was up to the believers to search the Word of God for the will of God.

These remarkable verses tell us the same thing in different ways. Read them carefully:

“Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of his calling, and fulfil all the good pleasures of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in Him, according to the Grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (II Thessalonians 1:11-12)

“….Making mention of you in my prayers; that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling…” (Ephesians 1:16-18)

Conclusion

Indeed, every believer will encounter problems with his old nature praying not for God’s will, but his own will. The old nature’s prayers will go unanswered. Every intelligent believer will thank God that his old nature prayers are not answered, for think what would happen if they were:

The Christian’s old nature would “have it made”: lots of money, perfect health, no debts, big car, big house, beautiful children, lots of friends and all other good things of life; but not one of those things would enhance his spiritual life. In addition, the possession of these things would not guarantee joy or fulfillment, for there are people who do have many of these things whose lives are empty. Death is the robber of all these things, so they really mean nothing.

The believer’s new nature, with the support of the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ as intercessors, prays for the will of God. With this confidence he can live in a crooked and perverse world with non-materialistic purpose in life. He can encounter hard places with the knowledge that the Lord is with him and will never leave him nor forsake him. He knows it is the will of God that even if he goes through the valley of the shadow of death, the Lord is with him, and he knows that ultimately all things work together for good.

As Christ prayed in the garden, so the believer can pray, even though he is facing great difficulties: “Thy will be done.” He can know that the victory of Christ is also his victory.

So, as Paul wrote, the spiritual nature of the believer ought to pray, “I will therefore that men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands without wrath and doubting.” (I Timothy 2:8)

Slightly Miffed

May 3rd, 2003, 10:27 AM

Thank you for posting this!
"Why?" is my favorite question. :roll

Timothy

May 4th, 2003, 11:01 AM

Segment/Chapter Eight
The Two Natures and Bible Study

After a person receives the Lord Jesus Christ he will discover that his old nature will remain actively hungry for the things of the world. In fact, he may discover that the old man’s aggressiveness will at times increase his interest in worldly things. The old nature will resent the presence of this spiritual nature and will make things as uncomfortable as possible. He may shift his attack and emphasize new things to satisfy the lust of the flesh.

One of the first things the old nature does after a person becomes a Christian is to introduce doubt. He will chew away at a person’s mind and emotions with subtle questions or thoughts in an attempt to undermine faith. At other times he may bring on a frontal attack in open rebellion against the Christian life the new nature desires to live.

The old nature will resist the discipline of prayer and Bible study. Instead he will cry to have his lust for dirty things fulfilled. He will resent abandoning friends who will do him no good. He will be especially sensitive to temptation to do or say the wrong thing. He will sharpen his appetite for self-justification. He will, in essence, insist that “sin really isn’t so bad.”

He will appeal to the new Christian to latch on to some other Christian rather than make Christ preeminent in his life. When the new Christian discovers the older Christian has feet of clay the old nature becomes extremely critical.

Often the old nature will lead a young believer into many activities with little concentration on spiritual things. It will be the program of Christianity which will be preemiment instead of Christ.

Quite frequently when someone who has “starred” in the theater, arts or athletics becomes a Christian other Christians, who should be wiser, will exploit the young Christian and his talent. The acclaim and popularity formerly received from the world is shifted to Christian circles.

A man who had sung in opera for a number of years became a Christian. Within a week he was singing in an evangelistic rally. The old nature took the opportunity to engender this young Christian a pride in his voice all out of proportion to reality. It wasn’t until years later that his new nature took over and used his voice to truly minister, rather than entertain.

It is sad that most Christians’ old natures loves to be entertained and they will travel miles to fill this hunger; under the guise of spirituality. The director of a Bible conference said, “I can bring in the finest Bible teacher for the summer conference and the attendance will be poor. If I bring in some popular musical group the attendance soars. I find it very disturbing to have to pay the musicians more for one evening than I give the best Bible teachers in the country over a month’s time; but music is the only way I can get a crowd.”

The old nature, indeed, happily uses whatever talent he can in the Christian world as long as it does not feed the new nature; even though it may seem to be “spiritual.” We have already suggested that the old nature is an imitator. “And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.” (II Corinthians 11:14)

Every believer will encounter problems when his old nature seemingly motivates action that isn’t quite spiritually oriented. Remember, if something is doubtful it is probably dirty, for whatever the old nature suggest is dirty.

The key to spiritual strength is to starve the old nature until he becomes weak and ineffective.

The new nature is also hungry, but for entirely different food. The Lord likens the new nature to a baby craving for milk; so the new nature desires the milk of the Word. As times goes on the Lord suggest that the believer should be hungry for the meat of the Word so that his senses can be exercised. (Hebrews 5:13-14)

The Lord uses another vivid illustration to show the development of the believer’s spiritual nature. He likens the Word of God to a seed that is planted in the life of the one who received Christ. (Matthew 13:8, 23) Paul tells us that the believer is rooted in the Lord Jesus Christ. (Ephesians 3:17, Colossians 2:7) Peter speaks of the growth of the believer in grace and knowledge of Christ. (II Peter 1:8) Paul refers to the productive Christian life as producing “fruit unto holiness” (Romans 6:22) and “fruits of righteousness” (Philippians 1:11)

In the Old Testament we find that Jacob called his son Joseph, a fruitful bough. (Genesis 49:22) and the bride in the Song of Solomon referred to her husband as a “tree.” (Song of Solomon 2:3)

Christ called believers branches, (John 15:5) and He tells us that we can mark the spirituality of a Christian by his fruits. (Matthew 7:20)

Growth from babyhood to adulthood takes time. Growth from a seed to a producing plant also takes time. Christians are often beguiled into thinking spiritual growth is linked to emotional experiences. How many earnest Christians have been trapped into thinking that because they dedicated themselves under some emotional pressure that they have taken a great leap forward spiritually. Feelings are stirred up but the Christian soon sinks back into his former state, for the religious feeling last only as long as the emotion.

Often a Christian who has had an emotional encounter insists that others should share the same experience. A college girl addressed a group of young people when she came home for the summer. “I had an experience you should all seek,” she said. “About a month ago I was in my room. I was so blue and discouraged I felt I could no longer go on. I knew I had let Christ down. I begged God to do something for me. Suddenly the most wonderful feeling swept over me. I felt as though the Lord touched me. I can’t get over it. If you’re blue and discouraged ask God to do this for you.”

A number of earnest young people were captivated by this personable girl’s presentation of her experience. None found it, for an experience like that is not what should be sought for; nor was this girl’s experience lasting, for shortly after her glowing testimony she returned to the pit of depression and had to have special care for recovery.

There is no substitute for growth, and there is no growth if there is no Bible study.

“Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.” (Romans 10:17)

“And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; speaking to yourselves in pslams and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord.” (Ephesians 5:18-19)

This verse should be read with the companion verse in Colossians 3:16. “Let the word of Christ dwell in you rightly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in pslams and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.”

Notice, to be filled with the Spirit is to be filled with the word of God.

Paul, in the letter he wrote just before he died, said to Timothy, “Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” (II Timothy 2:15)

On another occasion he said to Timothy, “Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that they profiting may appear to all.” (I Timothy 4:15)

The believer should disciplie his life so that there will be and intake of Bible doctrine on a consistent basis.

First of all, he should be associated with a church where the pastor is dedicated to expository and topical Bible reading. Most healthy churches have at least three sessions a week where the word of God is taught. This relationship with a local assembly of believers is essential. “Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.” (Hebrews 10:25)

The believer also needs to be involved in a smaller group study. This may be done through the facilities of the Sunday school, or weekly Bible classes. He should have an opportunity to express himself, sharing the ideas the Holy Spirit gives to him, asking questions, and searching the word with others who are mutually interested.

The third area of Biblical study should be personal. Reading the Bible is one thing; studying is another. Both are desirable, but the latter is necessary for growth. A disciplined program will enable the Christian to become familiar with the Bible. A notebook, a large margin Bible and a few commentaries are ingredients necessary for a profitable time of study.

Although Christians are aware of this need there is a tragic lack of personal Bible study. Publishing houses have made earnest efforts to counteract this problem. They have offered daily devotional books, calendars with suggestive readings from Scripture, and workbooks using the questions and answer system. Visual aids, records and tape recordings are available.

There are Christians who have discovered these programs to be worthwhile. Most Chrisitans, however, launch out on a program with good intentions, but soon allow their old natures to entice them with other “necessary projects,” and their enthusiasm wanes, the program sputters and fials, and they are left with guilt.

We would like to suggest one method of Bible study which has been received with much enthusiasm and proven successful where other attempts have failed. It is called Partnership Bible Study.

One girl, whose husband is in the armed forces said, “Partnership Bible Study assures that we both grow and an even pace in our spiritual lives. We write each other every day, but our Friday letters contain the results of our Partnership Bible Study and I look forward to those most.”

Here is how it works:

Step 1

Choose a partner, or partners. Your partner could be some other member of your family, or it could include your entire family. If you are a young person, the one you are dating would make a logical partner, or you could choose another girl or boy, or an entire group. Couples separated by military service, or college, find this program give extra dimension to their correspondence. With this system of Bible study the students are not handicapped by distance from one another. A Christian could choose a non-Christian for a partner. This has proven to be an excellent system for sharing one’s faith.

Step 2

Choose a book of the Bible for study. We suggest one of the Pauline epistles. Romans, Ephesians and Colossians lend themselves in an excellent way to the program.

Step 3

Read the first chapter of the book once a day for a week by yourself. Your partner should do the same. The chapter is not to be read in the presence of the partner.

Step 4

Seven basic foundations for study should be memorized and kept in mind as the chapter is read each day. Here are the things to look for:

1 – What is the theme of the chapter?
2 – What is the key verse of the chapter?
3 – What verse would you choose for memorization from the chapter?
4 – What things do you learn about God the Father from the chapter?
5 – What things do you learn about the Lord Jesus Christ from the chapter?
6 – What things do you learn about the Holy Spirit from the chapter?
7 – What things can you apply to your daily life from the chapter?
8 – Things to do
9 – Things to avoid

Step 5

After a week of reading the same chapter each day, fill in the answers to the above questions in your notebook.

The second chapter of the book would be the subject study for the following week, and so on.

Step 6

On the seventh day mail your answers to your corresponding partner, or meet with your partner, or partners, and compare your results.

Step 7

You will be surprised at how often your partner and you disagree. The disagreement should make no difference to your work. This is one of the unique features of the program. It permits the Holy Spirit to be your teacher. You will discover that the Holy Spirit will reveal things to you from the chapter that others will not notice. In turn, your partners will discover things, by the leading of the Holy Spirit, that did not occur to you. Under no circumstances should you change your own conclusions, but jot down your partners ideas on the back of your study sheet.

Step 8

Bathe the program in prayer.

There are a number of beneficicial aspects which fill this program with vitality and life. Here are a few that have been called to our attention:

The Bible is read every day.
Each chapter is read seven times, thus the student becomes familiar with the contents by repetition.
It is a personal program and it enables the Holy Spirit to be your teacher.
While it is personal, it also enables you to share your spiritual discoveries with others.
There is a certain discipline, for you are aware that your partner is depending on you to do your home work. You, in turn, are a challenge to your partner, for you expect your partner to be consistent.
Your personal commentary on each book of the Bible is developing. May we emphasize, there is nothing so delightful as something learned directly from the Holy Spirit as he teaches you the truth from the word of God.
That nature of the question on the work sheet are designed to better acquaint you with the Lord.
The emphasis on personal application will have a consistent effect on your spiritual growth.

Conclusion

We have said it before and we repeat: the only way to develop the new nature is to study the word of God. By deliberate self-discipline every Christian should develop a plan of Bible study which he will pursue on a daily basis for the rest of his life.

If a Christian give his old nature an inch of freedom that old nature will influence his spiritual life in a negative way. The constant absorption of the word of God is the only way to control the antics of the old nature.

AnotherOldGuy

May 4th, 2003, 10:13 PM

The stuff posted in blue drives my eyes crazy, so I'm just going to address comments I've seen here.

"Old Nature" - There is no old nature, just our nature. A nature is behavior you revert to when left to your own devices. A Spirit filled Christian will still sin. Why? Our nature is to please ourselves. Only one human has been able to live in total dependence to God.

"New Nature" - does not exist - yet. I'm assuming that what you mean by that is 'being controlled by the Spirit'. That is not a nature, but a conscience effort by a Christian.

"Do Christians really have two natures?" - No, Christians only have one nature, but they do have the Spirit available to control their human nature if they let Him.

"ARE OUR FLESH AND OUR SINFUL NATURE ONE IN THE SAME?" Yes. "Sinful nature" is not a biblical term. It appears nowhere in the Bible. Paul and Peter use the word for 'flesh'. That is the nature that every human being has - starting with Adam. You still have it after you're saved, and you'll have it until you die. Then the Christian's corruptible body will be changed into an incorruptible one (flesh without a "sinful nature") like Christ was resurrected into.

"IS THE FLESH THE SAME AS THE OLD MAN?" The old man is controlled by the flesh. In a Christian, the flesh is still there, but we must make an effort to diminish the flesh and allow the Spirit to control us. The 'new man' or 'new creation' is the person that has been given the Holy Spirit and submits to the Spirit.

"DO WE HAVE TWO NATURES?" As I've already stated, no - just one. Something that you have to make an effort to do is not a 'nature'. In our new bodies, our 'nature' will be changed and sin will no longer be a problem.

"IS THERE A WAR GOING ON?" Absolutely. Our 'nature' tells us to look out for number one. Our 'nature' is prideful and arrogant and selfish. Our 'nature' does not want to give up control. Even with the help of the Holy Spirit, we still must force ourselves to subdue or God-given freedom to choose.

Like I said, I didn't read all of the blue, so maybe I'm arguing semantics. But I remember wrestling with the 'new nature', 'new creation' stuff - because I still sinned. I couldn't understand how I could be that way if God was in me. When I realized that it was my nature to please myself, it cleared up a lot of confusion. The Holy Spirit is there, wanting to help, nudging me when my nature perks up - but I still have to make that effort to submit to Him.

Gods Trombone

May 5th, 2003, 08:09 AM

I am not implying that "the stuff in blue" is incorrect; however, it is sipler for me to repost my own words here to make my point
Emphasis
Rom. 8:1
II Cor. 10:5
ICor. 2:16
II Cor. 11:3
Phil. 2:5
Gal. 6:3
II Cor. 10:12
II Cor. 3:5

These scriptures can illustrate my emphasis that only the works Jesus is able to do *in us* are good works, and worthy works.

These works will not be "burned up."

Even works done by the "new creation" are not worthy if not Jesus own works *in us*.

I hope this helps someone as it helps me understand Paul's revelation.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

The "new creation" is our new spirit we get when we believe and are saved. It is another nature and separate from our "flesh."

The spirit of our flesh died and is gone forever.

If you were correct that "there are not two natures" then what is the "new creation?"

Romans shows that we receive a newly created spirit. It is only when we allow Jesus to act in this new spirit that any good works are done that cannot be burned up. So, even our newly created spirit can do no good . It is all only Jesus.

That is why no one can "boast."

Timothy

May 5th, 2003, 12:07 PM

Originally posted by AnotherOldGuyThe stuff posted in blue drives my eyes crazy

I wish someone would have told me earlier if the blue was distracting, etc. :(

Originally posted by AnotherOldGuy"ARE OUR FLESH AND OUR SINFUL NATURE ONE IN THE SAME?" Yes. "Sinful nature" is not a biblical term. It appears nowhere in the Bible. Paul and Peter use the word for 'flesh'. That is the nature that every human being has - starting with Adam. You still have it after you're saved, and you'll have it until you die. Then the Christian's corruptible body will be changed into an incorruptible one (flesh without a "sinful nature") like Christ was resurrected into.

"IS THE FLESH THE SAME AS THE OLD MAN?" The old man is controlled by the flesh. In a Christian, the flesh is still there, but we must make an effort to diminish the flesh and allow the Spirit to control us. The 'new man' or 'new creation' is the person that has been given the Holy Spirit and submits to the Spirit.

I would agree that our flesh and our sinful nature are one in the same. You are also correct that the term "sinful nature" is not used in the Bible, but I don't see any inaccuracy in using the term. I may be confused, but are you saying the term is incorrect? Everything that you have described so well, describes a "sinful nature" (a corrupted flesh).

Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"

Ephesians 2:3 "Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others"

In regards to the old man and flesh, I agree. :)

Originally posted by AnotherOldGuy"Old Nature" - There is no old nature, just our nature. A nature is behavior you revert to when left to your own devices. A Spirit filled Christian will still sin. Why? Our nature is to please ourselves. Only one human has been able to live in total dependence to God.

"New Nature" - does not exist - yet. I'm assuming that what you mean by that is 'being controlled by the Spirit'. That is not a nature, but a conscience effort by a Christian.

"Do Christians really have two natures?" - No, Christians only have one nature, but they do have the Spirit available to control their human nature if they let Him.

"DO WE HAVE TWO NATURES?" As I've already stated, no - just one. Something that you have to make an effort to do is not a 'nature'. In our new bodies, our 'nature' will be changed and sin will no longer be a problem.

"IS THERE A WAR GOING ON?" Absolutely. Our 'nature' tells us to look out for number one. Our 'nature' is prideful and arrogant and selfish. Our 'nature' does not want to give up control. Even with the help of the Holy Spirit, we still must force ourselves to subdue or God-given freedom to choose.

Like I said, I didn't read all of the blue, so maybe I'm arguing semantics...

By way of clarification, in case you have not viewed the original and earlier posts, I am not the author of the study, so what is in blue, I did not write. I think the confusion may be pure semantics. By "old nature" the author is referring to the "flesh," the "old man", our sinful nature which is still with us. By "new nature" the author is referring to our spirit, which was dead and now is alive unto God, the "new man." Back in multiple earlier posts, there are four separate segments/chapters where the author outlines the two.

Ephesians 4:22-24 "That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."

II Peter 1:3-4 "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

I fear that we may be splitting hairs over the word "nature." We have both a flesh and the indwelling Holy Spirit, one is corrupt, the other is not. For the sake of discussion and being thorough, I looked at some definitions of "nature": the inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing, disposition, tempermant; a spontaneous attitude (as of generosity).

When we follow the flesh (old man), that is what he means by old nature. When we follow the Holy Spirit (the new man), that is what he means by new nature. Depending on which we are following at any time, there is an inherhint character or spontaneous attitude from both. The "old man" and "works of the flesh" is selfish and lashes out, the "new man" or "fruit of the spirit" is all about love.

The battle is for our thoughts and over knowledge. These verses best sum it up:

Colossians 3:10 "And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him"

II Corinthians 10:5 "Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ"

Take a look back at the earlier segments, and let me know what you think. Whether or not you want to call them "natures" is fine by me. I think you are saying the same thing - we either follow the flesh or the spirit. :)

Timothy

May 5th, 2003, 07:45 PM

Segment/Chapter Nine
When We Understand the Two Natures

A young man, who had been raised in a Christian home, received Christ early in life, but from time to time the allure of the world captivated him. Because of his flamboyant, outgoing personality, his ups and downs were very apparent; not only to the people he associated with in church, but also to his friends who were not believers.

Although he didn’t know it at the time, his old nature would dominate his life and he would plunge into some form of carnality which brought him low. On one occasion he was with a group of his unbelieving friends and was arrested with them for the possession of drugs. Shortly afterwards he made a very dramatic confession to every body about his sin. This confession was accepted with great joy and enthusiasm on the part of his parents and other Christians in the church, but a few months later he was again involved in a scandal; this time with a girl. Again there was an emotional confession of sin.

It was about that time he heard a message on the battle of the two natures. He latched on to this truth. “I see it!” he said. “Now I know why I did those things. In times past I figured that when I was doing those things I was lost. I figure, ‘Well, so what? After it’s over I’ll get saved again.’ But deep down within me I know I wasn’t lost. I never rejected Christ. I rejected his will for my life, but I didn’t reject Christ. At my lowest point I was always crying out for the Lord to help me. Now I see it was my old nature which did those things. What a revelation! What a thrilling thing to know! Why wasn’t I taught these things before?”

What the understanding of the two natures does for us:

It gives us a clear understanding of the total depravity and corruption of the old nature. Ephesians 2:1-3.

It explains the inner conflict which rages within the believer from time to time. Galatians 5:17

It accounts for the believer’s unexpected return to the attributes of carnality: the sudden flare of temper, criticism, bitterness, jealously, and anger.

It explains why there is a tendency to self-pity, exaggeration, gossip, complaining.

It accounts for the curiosity which dwells in every believer of being interested in exploring carnality.

It accounts for the conflicts which exist between a Christian husband and wife who love the Lord and yet find it difficult to get along together.

It accounts for the conflicts between any one Christian and another.

It accounts for the cliques which can arise in the local church that bar some people from fellowship in the particular circle.

It accounts for Christian men and women esteeming one person above another.

It accounts for the Christian, who from time to time, loses interest in spiritual things and goes the way of the world.

It accounts for the believer’s discouragement, depression, and weariness in well doing.

It accounts for the believer who suddenly questions, “What has happened to my faith?”

It accounts for the Christian not opening his Bible daily and studying the word of God.

It accounts for all the problems which are encountered in the Christian community.

What the understanding of the two natures does not do:

IT DOES NOT GIVE ANY CHRISTIAN THE RIGHT TO EXCUSE HIS OLD NATURE FOR ANY OF THE ABOVE ACTIONS OR ATTITUDES!

“Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it unto subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached unto others, I myself should be a castaway.” (I Corinthians 9:24-27)

Timothy

May 5th, 2003, 08:25 PM

Well, that is the last segment. I would love to discuss and and review more verses, as it can only add to my own study, notes and learning.

Someone had posted a couple of other articles earlier, which I am going to go back and review, as I committed...

A few posts back, I probably provided a "summary" a little too early with verses describing how the battle is for our thoughts, minds. I found one additional verse:

Isaiah 55:8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways..”

We need to replace our own thoughts, with thoughts based on the word of God.

Originally posted by BHiles The very heart that gives one permission to commit sin will immediately upon the commission, point its finger at you in disgust and accuse you, then after a short period of time start rationalizing will once again give permission to commit the sin again.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

BHiles, that is a verse that I use all the time! In my notes for that verse, I have the following verses cross-referenced:

Proverbs 28:26 “He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool..”

The one thing not directly addressed in the study is emotions. Man's heart is deceitful, or tricky, and is easily fooled. Feelings are taken for facts, and one's wishes for God's word. There is nothing Biblically wrong with emotions, but emotions should be based on scripture and doctrine because emotions can come from both the old man and the new man. For example, there is nothing wrong with anger, bibically based:

Ephesians 4:26 - Be angry and sin not.."

Emotions are responders (reactors). Emotions are "dumb" - there is no intelligence in them, by themself, because they follow thoughts. Emotions can’t distinguish between fact and fantasy. They repond to messages sent by brain. What we think determines how we feel. The most practical example is a scary movie. While watching the movie, we are THINKING and processing in our minds about what's going to happen next, etc. We get scared, the heart races, palms get sweaty, etc. But nothing is happening to us - our emotions can't tell the difference (fact and fantasy).

We should not focus on controlling our emotions, but our thoughts instead. Realistic/Biblical thoughts = realistic/Biblical emotions. The Bible appeals to our mind and thoughts, not our emotions:

Philippians 4:8 "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."

Psalm 119:11 "Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee."

No pun intended - your thoughts? :)

Workfromhomemom

November 2nd, 2003, 08:32 AM

Some articles against "one-naturism"...

http://www.withchrist.org/MJS/onenature.htm

:):

joyttw

November 2nd, 2003, 03:36 PM

Hi Workfromhomemom,

I read the "Self-Incrimination" article and saw the names of many teachers with whom I agree: Charles Stanley, Bob George, Bill Gillham...

The author of the article says stuff like, about Bob George, "All of these one-naturists are Jay Adams-type habituationists, i.e., 'Develop new good habits to push out old bad habits.' "

Well, that's not what I have learned from these teachers. What I have learned is that I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live but Christ lives in me. And the battle in me is not a civil war, my good nature vs. my bad nature, but rather a war of flesh vs. spirit. I am now a partaker of the divine nature (Peter said we are in I Peter), yet I still have sin dwelling in my flesh (Romans 7).

I personally think a lot of people who believe in the dual nature of man and attack those of us who don't, do not understand our position fully. Some of the things Timothy said in his posts sound EXACTLY like I believe, however then he goes on to say he believes we have two natures. So a lot of times I think there are just slight misunderstandings of semantics and rather than labeling 'one-naturists' of "hamper[ing] the growth of so many believers" as the author of the article claims, try to understand what they are saying. Because from what I've seen, what Charles Stanley, Bob George and Bill Gillham teach is firmly supported by scripture.

-Joy

Timothy

November 2nd, 2003, 07:33 PM

The author of the articles uses the terms "old nature" and "new nature." Whether or not one agrees that "nature" is the right word, really doesn't bother me, and it seems like a mute point.

Without question, I believe that the author is using these terms synonymously.

Flesh = Old Man = Author's term "Old Nature"
Spirit = New Man = Author's term "New Nature"

Flesh & Spirit, Old Man & New Man, are all scriptural terms used by Paul. If someone doesn't like the term "nature," simply use Paul's terms, which is what I normally do. We all have an old man or flesh, and a new man or spirit.

motherbeth

November 2nd, 2003, 08:13 PM

I recently took a seminar from Crossways for Life talking about this very thing. I am a new Christian and so this is quite new information for me. May I say, I can't get enough of it. Great infor posted here.

Thanks.... I need to keep reading about this - to get it into my head and heart. Major war going on here especially since taking the course. I am at the point of accepting this by faith. I don't understand it all and I don't "feel" it. Faith first and the rest will come in time.

Werner

November 3rd, 2003, 04:35 PM

Great thread Timothy!! :nod :thumb

Maranatha! :dancing

John

Workfromhomemom

November 4th, 2003, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by joyttw
Hi Workfromhomemom,

I read the "Self-Incrimination" article and saw the names of many teachers with whom I agree: Charles Stanley, Bob George, Bill Gillham...

The author of the article says stuff like, about Bob George, "All of these one-naturists are Jay Adams-type habituationists, i.e., 'Develop new good habits to push out old bad habits.' "

Well, that's not what I have learned from these teachers. What I have learned is that I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live but Christ lives in me. And the battle in me is not a civil war, my good nature vs. my bad nature, but rather a war of flesh vs. spirit. I am now a partaker of the divine nature (Peter said we are in I Peter), yet I still have sin dwelling in my flesh (Romans 7).

I personally think a lot of people who believe in the dual nature of man and attack those of us who don't, do not understand our position fully. Some of the things Timothy said in his posts sound EXACTLY like I believe, however then he goes on to say he believes we have two natures. So a lot of times I think there are just slight misunderstandings of semantics and rather than labeling 'one-naturists' of "hamper[ing] the growth of so many believers" as the author of the article claims, try to understand what they are saying. Because from what I've seen, what Charles Stanley, Bob George and Bill Gillham teach is firmly supported by scripture.

-Joy

Joy,
I posted the site, with the articles, because this author is a pauline dispensationalist. he understands "identification truths" and understands Romans 7, unlike most folks out preaching today.

Frankly, I like Dr. Stanley and others, but there are things that they are teaching that are just plain wrong... JMO on that. And the details matter, as there are whole denominations based on this one idea. I personally know of a man (of these denominations) who killed himself, who was a Christian, very likely because he could not come to terms with Romans 7 and 8. So, you can see, this is not just an academic exercise. The men named in the articles at that site are not pauline in their dispensationalism, so they do not get this stuff about our "identification". JMO again.

Folks who are expecting to be living Romans 8, without realizing that they have to deal (at the same time) with Romans 7, are only setting themselves up for frustration. Paul wrote them both at the same sitting and both applied to HIM WHILE HE WAS A BELIEVER!

As always, with any site that I post, those that will benefit from it, use it and those that won't, pass it by. So be it.

:):

joyttw

November 5th, 2003, 11:47 AM

Hi Workfromhomemom,

I agree it is very important, but I have gone back and forth with some people on the distinctions and semantics and I still don't see where I am wrong, but it's not worth going around in circles when we all (both one-nature and dual-nature folks here) agree that we need to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh. And people should not live as Romans 7 defeated Christians.

I just think it's odd the dual-nature people would say their view allows more victory in their Christian walk because it seems the exact opposite to me. When I understand that I no longer have a sinful nature (NIV mistranslates Romans 7 -- we DO still have sin dwelling in our flesh but we do NOT have a sinful nature), then I understand more of my identity in Christ and it is EASIER to allow Christ to live through me.

I'm copying and pasting something below that I wrote awhile ago (I keep it in a Word document so I don't have to re-write all my thoughts every time this subject comes up!):

TWO ASPECTS OF SALVATION:
1) I am saved from my SINS. Deals with my BEHAVIOR.
- I agree with God:
1. The problem: I have sinned (Rom. 3:23)
2. The solution: Christ died for me (Rom. 5:8)
3. My response: Receive, accept, trust in Christ as Savior (John 1:12)

2) I am saved from my SELF. Deals with my IDENTITY.
- I agree with God:
1. The problem: I’m a failure (Rom. 7:18)
2. The solution: I died with Christ (Gal. 2:20)
3. My response: Receive, accept, trust in Christ as Life (Col. 3:4, 2:6)

“May your whole SPIRIT, SOUL AND BODY be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful and HE will do it.” - I Thess. 5:23-24

We are made up of body (flesh), soul (mind, will and emotions), and spirit (inner being). (see also Hebrews 4:12) Many Christians put soul and spirit together, and think we are made up of only body and soul. This is what Hank Hanegraf believes. I reject this for two main reasons: 1) God made us in His image, and since He is a triune God, it would make sense that we are triune beings. 2) I can only understand Paul’s teaching in terms of the body, soul and spirit. The dual nature thing doesn’t make sense to me. And to read Romans 7 with the proper translation really helped me understand and put things together. Walking in the flesh vs. walking in the spirit, the battle between flesh and spirit.

You already know these verses. Do we really believe them, though? Here is my point, and this is what Bill Gilham teaches. Most Christians look at Christ as their Savior and Lord, but not as their very LIFE. Yet, we are not getting the whole gospel if we stop at Savior and Lord. He wants to give us His very life, and live His life in and through us.

First, let’s look at what (or, who) is eternal life. Eternal life is not the same as everlasting life. Everlasting has a beginning, but no end. Eternal has no beginning and no end.

“And this is the testimony: God has given us ETERNAL LIFE, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.” - I John 5:11-12

“HE IS the true God and ETERNAL LIFE.” - I John 5:20

“THE LIFE appeared, we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you THE ETERNAL LIFE, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.” I John 1:2

“I am the resurrection and THE LIFE.” John 11:25

“Jesus answered, ‘I am the way and the truth and THE LIFE.” -John 14:6

We are born spiritually dead in Adam, and when we are born again, we are made spiritually alive.

“His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the DIVINE NATURE and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.” 2 Peter 1:3

“For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline.” - 2 Tim. 1:7 ( My point with this verse is: If we ACT timid, does that mean we ARE timid? No, it means we are being a hypocrite. Because we do not have a spirit of timidity.)

“We know that we live in him and he in us, because he HAS GIVEN us his Spirit... If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.” - I John 4:13,15

“Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that CHRIST JESUS IS IN YOU -- unless, of course, you fail the test? And I trust that you will discover that we have not failed the test.” - 2 Cor. 13:5-6

“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the OLD HAS GONE (past tense), the new has come!” - 2 Cor. 5:17

“For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that HIS LIFE MAY BE REVEALED IN OUR MORTAL BODY.” - 2 Cor. 4:11

“But we HAVE (present tense) the MIND OF CHRIST.” - 1 Cor. 2:16

“For we know that our OLD SELF WAS (past tense) CRUCIFIED with him” -Rom. 6:6

“As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is SIN LIVING IN ME. I know that nothing good lives in me, THAT IS, IN MY FLESH.”- Rom. 7:17-18

“Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is SIN LIVING IN ME, that does it.” - Rom. 7:20

Many Christians do not like these verses because they say it’s a “devil made me do it” excuse. They may think that, but it doesn’t change the fact that this is what scripture says, and Paul thought it important enough to mention it twice in a row! (verse 17 and verse 20) So, do you believe this, or not?

“For in my INNER BEING (spirit) I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in the members of my BODY (flesh), waging WAR against the law of my MIND (soul)” - Romans 7:22-23

“For YOU DIED (past tense), and your LIFE is now HIDDEN WITH CHRIST IN GOD. When CHRIST, who IS YOUR LIFE, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.” - Col.3:3-4

“The mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is CHRIST IN YOU, the hope of glory.” - Col. 1:26-27

“For it is GOD who works IN YOU to will and to act according to his good purpose.” - Phil. 2:13

“For to me, to LIVE IS CHRIST and to die is gain.” - Phil. 1:21

“I HAVE BEEN (past tense) CRUCIFIED with Christ and I NO LONGER LIVE, but CHRIST LIVES IN ME...” - Gal. 2:20

Do you believe this?

Timothy

November 5th, 2003, 12:40 PM

I've never focused or even thought of the word nature, and whether it was the "right" word to use. Until starting this thread, I never even knew that there were camps: one nature vs. two nature. The bottom line is this: If someone wants to say we don't have two "natures" I'm absolutely fine with that. Let's get past the word "nature." Eliminate the word "nature" completely.

If I was to rewrite the above study in blue (again, which I didn't write), I probably would not even use the word "nature." I would use the scriptural words: flesh and spirit, old man and new man. Paul clearly outlines the struggle of the flesh and the spirit, the old man and the new man. We have two of "something," and let's collectively agree not to call in a "nature."

We are eternally secure in Christ. I would direct any readers to some of the other OSAS vs. OSNAS discussions for debating eternal security, which I have posted in. From my own personal experience, your view on whether or not you are eternally secure in Christ DOES DIRECTLY impact (positively or negatively) the struggle of the old man vs. the new man.

In regards to sin, sin is no longer an issue in the eyes of God. We he sees us, he sees us through Christ. Through Christ we are "dead to sin" and "free from sin" (Romans 6). That doesn't mean we don't sin. It means that the sin issue has been paid for, we've been bought, redeemed, purchased.

The primary struggle, which is extremely difficult and always ongoing, is "letting go" of the flesh and putting the flesh in proper place. We are to reckon (count on, mentally think) that we are dead to sin.

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The flesh, or old man, does not want the spirit, the new man, to rule. The flesh wants you to think that "you're not that bad of a person" and that you do have some "righteousness." But that is not true. Our persnal righteousness is as "filthy rags" in the eyes of God. We are to put the flesh in its place by reckoning it to be truly dead, crucified.

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Romans 6:6-7 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.

The minute we give the flesh our attention, and reckon it being alive, we fall. It is also important to remember that there are not just two types of works (good and bad), there are three.

1 - Bad works, produced by the flesh.
2 - Good works, produced by the flesh.
3 - Good works, produced by the spirit.

This is of the utmost importance to remember, and like grace, also hard to understand. Good works in a saved person can by motivated in two ways. They could be motivated in the same way as they are in the unsaved, by the flesh's distorted perception of righteousness ("I'm not that bad of a person, etc."). Man's own righteousness is as "filthy rags" in the eyes of God. The first two are an abonimation to God.

Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Under grace, thanksgiving (grace attitude = gratitude) is the motivating source for our good works. It really takes some introspection to analyze the motivating factors sometimes for our good works. If it is not motivated by grace, then it is a product of the flesh, and our own personal righteousness which is as "filthy rags."

We are to put off the old man, and stand in grace. The old man is corrupt and deceitful, as described above.

Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind

How do we renew the spirit of our mind? Knowledge of scripture.

Colossians 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him

joyttw

November 5th, 2003, 01:00 PM

:thumb Sounds good to me!

Timothy

November 5th, 2003, 05:06 PM

I felt it appropriate that I should think a little bit about this "two nature vs. one nature" dispute. So here are some initial ponderings.

Again, my preference is still to use the phrases old man and new man, and flesh and spirit, as I have found them to be more "useful" and self-explanatory. When we are saved, we still have a flesh and a spirit, and an old man and a new man (which can be "put off" and "put on" according to the Apostle Paul). There is definitively two of "something" that every believer has, and we know that the flesh and spirit lust against each other.

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

So is it right or wrong to refer to the flesh (old man) and spirit (new man) as "natures?"

Here are some definitions of "nature:"

The essential characteristics and qualities of a person or thing

The fundamental character or disposition of a person; temperament

The sum of qualities and attributes which make a person or thing what it is, as distinct from others; native character; inherent or essential qualities or attributes; peculiar constitution or quality of being.

The essential qualities or characteristics by which something is recognized

So a "nature" has inherent characteristics, qualities, attributes, all of which can be recognized.

1 - Does our flesh have a nature or is there such as thing as a fleshly nature?

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The flesh has lust and desires, which are characteristics and attributes, just like a nature. Before we were saved we were "by nature the children of wrath." Before we were saved, our spirit was dead unto God, so the flesh is all we we consisted of. By the nature of the flesh, we fulfilled its lusts and desires. When we are saved, our spirit becomes alive unto God, but our flesh is still "here." The flesh clearly does have a nature, which is lustful and desires. Based on this, I don't see anything wrong in referring to our flesh as a "nature."

2 - Does our spirit have a nature or is their such as thing as a spiritual nature?

Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance...

The spirit also has characteristics, qualities and attributes. Based on this, I don't see anything wrong in referring to our spirit as a "nature."

So both our flesh and spirit have the characteristics of a nature. So why the confusion between two vs. one? I think the pivotal point to remember that under grace, and being eternally secure in Christ, our flesh is "dead" to the eyes of God. It literally is a "dead issue."

Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I'm guessing that the confusion is a "misunderstanding" or "semantics." In the eyes of God, our fleshy sinful nature is dead, taken care of by the cross. It is dead in the eyes of God, as he sees us through Christ, through our spirit. So in the eyes of God, we only have a spiritual nature. But the flesh is still alive unto us and our day to day life. I may be wrong, but that seems like it could be the source of the confusion. Our power over preventing sin is recognizing that in our flesh dwells nothing good, and that it is dead. The minute when we give into the lust of the flesh, and think that "we really aren't that bad" is when we fall. But under grace, what do we do when we fall? Stand back up!

Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Ephesians 4:22-24 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

If there are any "one nature" lurkers, I would like to hear your thoughts.

joyttw

November 6th, 2003, 10:09 AM

Well as you can see based on your overwhelming response, Timothy, there are a whole bunch of us one-nature folks :laugh

Seriously, if you do a Yahoo search on Romans 7 commentaries, you'll find 99% of Christian websites teach that Christians have two natures, and I think this is unfortunate.

Based on your definition of "nature" I look at it this way. Picture three circles one inside the other, like a bullseye. The inner circle represents the spirit, the middle circle represents the soul, and the outer circle represents the body/flesh.

Remember, we have been crucified with Christ and we no longer live but Christ lives in us. He dwells in our spirit. That spirit, or inner man, defines who we are by nature. So do we have a forgiving nature? We may not FEEL like we are "naturally" forgiving, but then our feelings don't always line up with the truth. By NATURE we are now patient, kind, forgiving, etc. But we can choose to go against who we are in Christ and walk according to the flesh. That does not change our nature.

So I still say we only have one nature, but sin dwelling in our flesh tempts us to behave out of line with who we are in Christ. Our identity is not determined by our behavior, but our behavior SHOULD be determined by our identity.

I'm writing fast because I have to go to Parent-Teacher conferences right now, hopefully that made sense!

Don

November 6th, 2003, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by Timothy
Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

So is it right or wrong to refer to the flesh (old man) and spirit (new man) as "natures?"
I totally agree with you Timothy. I don't know how verses like Galatians 5:17 square with the "one nature" crowd. I don't know how personal experience squares with the one nature crowd, either. I mean, don't they feel the two natures at war inside them?

If we already have one perfect nature, then what is death for? What's with all the "the corruptible must put on the incorruptible" stuff in reference to death (1 Cor 15)?

Timothy

November 6th, 2003, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by joyttw Remember, we have been crucified with Christ and we no longer live but Christ lives in us. He dwells in our spirit. That spirit, or inner man, defines who we are by nature.

Again, here is where I think this whole one vs. two nature debate stems from. I think it is important to make a distinction from a specific vantage point. Yes, in the eyes of God, the flesh has been crucified and is dead. In the eyes of God, we only have a spirit, the new man, a new nature. Through Christ, we are dead to sin, free from sin, the flesh is crucified, etc. But the flesh, the old man, and it's natural characteristics are still very much alive to us, but not God. The natural lust of the flesh is still there with every believer. See the distinction? The flesh is dead to God, but still obviously alive to us.

Ephesians 4:22-24 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Galatians 5:16-17 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

At any point in time, the believer can walk in the spirit or walk in the flesh, put on the new man or put it off, etc. They lust against each other - each has a nature that opposes the other. The flesh does not want the spirit to rule, it does not want to give up. When we sin, we are walking in the flesh, giving attention to our old nature. We are not acting as who we are in Christ, standing in grace, reckoning the flesh to be dead.

Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Originally posted by joyttw So do we have a forgiving nature? We may not FEEL like we are "naturally" forgiving, but then our feelings don't always line up with the truth. By NATURE we are now patient, kind, forgiving, etc. But we can choose to go against who we are in Christ and walk according to the flesh. That does not change our nature.

See earlier in this thread about "feelings." Feelings are the end result, and never should be used as an indicator, because the flesh is deceitful.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Our flesh is corrupted from sin, and lusts against our spirit. We know that in our flesh "dwelleth no good thing," but the lust of the flesh wants us to think otherwise. The flesh wants you to think "I'm not that bad of a person" and "you would never do something like that." The flesh not only produces the obvious sins, but it also produces the self-righteousness. I've met many unsaved people who were patient, kind, and forgiving. They did it from the flesh, and believed they were righteous, and good people, "not that bad." But we know that man's righteousness is as "filthy rags" in the eyes of God, and everyone "falls short" in the end.

It critically important to remember that there are not just two types of works (good and bad) in a saved person, there are three.

1 - Bad works, produced by the flesh.
2 - Good works, produced by the flesh.
3 - Good works, produced by the spirit.

This is of the utmost importance to remember, and like grace, also hard to understand. It took me forever to get this. Good works in a saved person can by motivated in two ways. The can be motivated to correct way, by the spirit, and who we are in Christ. They could be also motivated in the same way as they are in the unsaved, by the flesh, and it's distorted perception of righteousness ("I'm not that bad of a person, etc."). #1 and #2 are an abonimation to God. It takes some real hard introspection to analyze the motiviation for some of the good works we do. The flesh is deceitful and can produce good works, such as patience, etc.

Originally posted by joyttw So I still say we only have one nature, but sin dwelling in our flesh tempts us to behave out of line with who we are in Christ. Our identity is not determined by our behavior, but our behavior SHOULD be determined by our identity.

I think you just alluded that you do have two natures. ;-) One of which, again, is dead in the eyes of God. The flesh tempts and lusts (by nature) our spirit to behave out of line with who we are in Christ. The flesh does have natural characteristics and lusts that don't change and still exist after we are saved. When we give the flesh attention or an ounce of credit, we are not standing in grace, who we are in Christ.

We fend off the flesh (the old man) through knowledge of the new man.

Colossians 3:10-11 ...seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him

Originally posted by Don I totally agree with you Timothy. I don't know how verses like Galatians 5:17 square with the "one nature" crowd. I don't know how personal experience squares with the one nature crowd, either. I mean, don't they feel the two natures at war inside them? If we already have one perfect nature, then what is death for? What's with all the "the corruptible must put on the incorruptible" stuff in reference to death (1 Cor 15)?

Agreed. It is also important to note that though the flesh is dead in the eyes of God through Christ, every saved person still does sin. When we sin, we do so by the flesh, which is alive to us.

joyttw

November 6th, 2003, 03:06 PM

Don, I remember when I was in college and my Christianity 301 prof explained that Calvin was a one-nature guy and Luther was a dual-nature guy. Without any study of scripture on my own, I decided I would side with Luther, because experientially, I FELT like I had a dual nature.

Then years later when I studied scriptures in depth for the first time, I changed my beliefs to line up with scripture rather than my feelings. No offense.

Timothy, I agree with everything you post, except for the fact that you believe our flesh has a nature in and of itself. See why I grow weary of arguing semantics when it seems like we, in the end, agree on everything else?

Going back to the definition of 'nature,' I still say our nature is determined by our spirit. Who we are at the core, our ESSENCE, is a new creation, a partaker of the divine nature, Christ living in us. We are born again and have a new identity.

Our flesh still stinks to high heaven and will until we receive new bodies in heaven. I will never argue with that. And I totally agree that ANYTHING done in the flesh, even good works, is sin, because we are relying on the flesh and not the Spirit. But, the sin dwelling in our flesh is not who we are. It is not our identity or our inner being. Like Bill Gilham says, the power of sin dwelling in you is not you, anymore than a gold tooth in your mouth is you. I look at it as a parasite dwelling in our body. We are not the parasite, but we still have to deal with it.

If that still doesn't make sense to anyone, I give up!

Don

November 6th, 2003, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by joyttw
Then years later when I studied scriptures in depth for the first time, I changed my beliefs to line up with scripture rather than my feelings. No offense.
Don't spit in my face and then tell me you meant no offense.

This is obviously a matter of conflicting word definitions (as so many of these disagreements are). I don't understand what you mean by "nature". As I understand the word "nature", in this context, it is the driving force behind something. This is why I think the believer has two natures, because there are two driving forces behind the behavior of the believer. The believer must chose to follow the spirit rather than his human nature. What do you define the word "nature" as meaning?

joyttw

November 6th, 2003, 04:48 PM

Don, I wasn't spitting in your face. I'm sorry if my wording sounded like that. Frankly I thought the person who implied someone would commit suicide based on being taught one-naturism is more a spit in the face! Anyway, I really did have that experience in college and was just trying to get across the point that we can't rely on our feelings. I know you are well-versed in scripture and didn't mean to imply that you weren't. Will you please forgive me?

Anyway, to answer your question, I can see by your definition of nature why you would believe we have two natures. By my definition, which I defined in my previous posts as who we are at the core... our identity... etc., we only have one.

Timothy

November 6th, 2003, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by joyttw ...Timothy, I agree with everything you post, except for the fact that you believe our flesh has a nature in and of itself. See why I grow weary of arguing semantics when it seems like we, in the end, agree on everything else?

After thinking about this now for a few days, I do not see an issue with the word "nature" itself, or why anyone would could that we do not have two natures.

One of the definitions of nature is "The essential qualities or characteristics by which something is recognized." The flesh has natural, inherent characteristics that can be recognize does it not? Through scripture, we can recognize the characteristics of the flesh, its lusts, it is deceitful, it is self-righteous, etc. There's flesh and spirit. There's the old man and the new man. Each has natural, inherent characteristics that can be recognized.

Again, the basis for the two natures is OUR vantagepoint, not the eyes of God. The the eyes of God, the flesh is dead, and there is only the spirit, the new man, the new nature.

If the flesh does not have it's own nature, what is the source of the lust and desires of the flesh? What is lusting after the spirit?

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Galatians 5:16-17 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Though the specific phrases "old nature" and "new nature" are not in the Bible, the terms "old man" and "new man" are. They are diametrically opposed, and naturally lust against one another. Each has characteristics and essential qualities that can be recognized. The believer can either follow the flesh or the spirt, the old man or the new man, the old nature or the new nature. You can live as who you are in Christ, standing in grace, or you can fall back and live for the flesh.

Originally posted by joyttw Going back to the definition of 'nature,' I still say our nature is determined by our spirit. Who we are at the core, our ESSENCE, is a new creation, a partaker of the divine nature, Christ living in us. We are born again and have a new identity.

In the eyes of God, yes, there is only the new nature. Our spirt, once dead is now alive, and the flesh once alive, is now crucified in the eyes of God.

But when we are saved, our sinful and lustful flesh remains (alive to us) with its characteristics and essential qualities (which are negative). We can follow the lust in either direction, flesh or spirt, old man or new man, etc.

This is even more complicated, but it may help. It sounds like you may not be making a distinction between your soul and your spirit. There are some that mistakenly think they are one and the same. We are a triune being, made up of a body, soul and spirit. I would argue that our soul is actually who we are at our core. Through the spirt, we are made alive unto God.

BODY: The body is our flesh. It is the part of man that is WORLD-conscious. The body could also be referred to as the brain. The body contains our sin nature. It responds to the decision of the heart (soul) and uses body to accomplish thoughts, feelings actions. It is the seat of the senses.

SOUL: The soul is the part of man that is SELF-conscious. The soul could also be referred to as the heart, and contains volition, will, understanding. All capacity for life is initiated in the soul, the heart. Choices are made here. The soul is dark in an unsaved man.

SPIRIT: The spirit is the part of man that is GOD-conscious, and is able to respond to God. The spirit of unsaved man is dead, unto God.

A saved person can life their life in two directions, one is right and the other wrong. You can focus on the flesh or you can focus on the spirit. Both the flesh and spirit are lusting against each other, in opposite directions.

BODY SOUL SPIRIT GOD
<--- <--- <---- <-- RIGHT
---> ---> ----> --> WRONG

So Paul says we "serve God with our spirit" and being "spiritually minded," this is an indication of the proper direction. God works from the inside out. The flesh lusts you into thinking that "your not that bad, you would never do that, you can perfect me, etc." Obviously, in the above chart, you can change the word body to flesh or old man, and change the word spirit to new man.

joyttw

November 6th, 2003, 06:31 PM

Hi Timothy,

I most definitely see a distinction between soul and spirit, which I thought I was very clear about in all of my posts! I would like for you to go back and read them, maybe they were too long?

Romans 7:23, in our inner being (our spirit) we delight in God's law, but our spirit is at war with our body/flesh. What are they warring over? Our soul, which is our mind, will and emotions and where we make choices. It is not a civil war (us against ourselves).

Again, sin dwells in our flesh and does not define who we are, but Paul is very clear (he mentions TWICE in Romans 7) that when I sin, IT IS NO LONGER I WHO SIN BUT SIN WHICH DWELLS IN ME. Is that true, or not?

Okay, I said I was going to give up. I'm surprised that with all the Charles Stanley fans on this board no one else is jumping in agreeing w/ me :confused

Timothy

November 7th, 2003, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by joyttw Romans 7:23, in our inner being (our spirit) we delight in God's law, but our spirit is at war with our body/flesh. What are they warring over? Our soul, which is our mind, will and emotions and where we make choices. It is not a civil war (us against ourselves).

I'm at a loss to understand how you can agree with everything earlier, and that we have a flesh and spirit, old man and new man, with the soul in the middle. And then not agree the each opposing side (flesh and spirit) has a "nature" with characteristics.

Now here's where I'm even more confused. You can say our spirit is at war with our body/flesh, but then at the same time say it is not a civil war (us against ourselves)? You agree that we are made up of a body, soul, and spirit. And you agree that the flesh and spirit, which is part of us, are at war against each other. Both are part of us, and are at war, but then you say it is not a civil war? Do you see where that doesn't make sense and is contradictory?

:confused

A civil war is exactly what it is. It is a war for control. It is a civil war - the lust of the flesh vs. the spirit. Think of Galatians 5:16-17 in this way.

Flesh <--(lust)-- SOUL --(lust)--> Spirit

Again, we are talking about the life of the believer experientally, not the eyes of God. The flesh is still alive to us, and is "contrary" and lusting against the spirit.

Originally posted by joyttw Again, sin dwells in our flesh and does not define who we are, but Paul is very clear (he mentions TWICE in Romans 7) that when I sin, IT IS NO LONGER I WHO SIN BUT SIN WHICH DWELLS IN ME. Is that true, or not?

Sin dwells in our fleshly nature, the old man. It does not define who we are in the eyes of God, which is the new man. But, someone who is saved can let the flesh rule (a carnal Christian, such as described in I Corinthians). The flesh can definitely define us in the eyes of others, and testimonies can be ruined.

Romans 7 can be difficult to understand through all of the uses of "I." You have brought up a passage where Paul says "it is no longer I who sin." In Romans 7, Paul also says:

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

So Paul has said two "contrary" things - "it is no longer I who sin" and "I am carnal, sold under sin." Keep Galatians in mind, the flesh and spirit lust and are contrary to each other. Depending on the verse and context, he's referring to the old man (old nature, flesh), or the new man (new nature, spirit), etc.

When Paul says that it is no longer "I who sin," he's not excusing his sin, nor is he saying he doesn't sin. You are correct that he's talking about the new man. Through Christ, the new man is dead to sin and free from sin. In the eyes of God, he can't sin.

But obviously like us, Paul still did sin, by the flesh, the old man. When he says "I am carnal," he's clearly talking about the old man, our flesh, which is still active experientially in every believer. Note was Paul says:

Romans 7:22-24 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

The inward man (the new man) delights in the law of God. But there is another law in our members (body, soul, spirit). The law of our mind (spirit or new man) vs. the law of sin (flesh or old man). Both are in our members, and are warring, experientally in every believer.

P.S. I have no clue who Charles Stanley is.

joyttw

November 7th, 2003, 09:14 AM

Sigh.. okay, I think I see why we are not on the same page here. One more try, and then I'll really, really give up. For real this time :D:

I've posted these articles in the past and someone (AnotherOldGuy, maybe?) made fun of me... or the author... but of course I took it personally because my flesh is hypersensitive :P: ... BUT to hopefully explain better than I can, I will post them again:

http://www.gospelcom.net/lifetime/local/equipped/journalRead/154

The Power of Sin
by Dr. Bill Gillham

We teach that the believer battles against an inner power which the Bible calls “sin.” In Rom. 7:23, Paul writes, “But I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.” Notice this power or law is not in the believers’ mind where his thoughts are generated, but in his body. It is very much like a foreign agent which indwells his body, but not his soul or spirit. Your mind is at war against this power. “But, I am afraid, lest as the serpent deceive Eve…your mind should be led astray” (2 Cor. 11:3).
When you have a war going on at least two sides must be represented. The power of sin obviously sides with Satan, and your mind fights against this power; therefore, whose side is your mind on? God’s! It has to be, or else there would be no war inside you. You “have the law of God written on your mind” (Heb. 10:16). You have a “sound mind” (2 Tim. 1:7 KJV).

However, most Christians have been taught that our war within is a civil war, that you fight against yourself. They interpret every verse which speaks of our inner struggle as if an “evil” side of the believer fights against his “good” side.

Webster’s definition of the word personify is “to represent as a person.” In Lifetime Guarantee’s teaching, we identify the power of sin in the believer by personifying it as waging a “war against" the Christian’s mind. One, it presents thoughts to the believer’s mind using first person singular pronouns (I, me, my, myself, etc.). Second, it uses the flesh patterns in the believer’s brain as a channel through which to present thoughts to his mind. Are we correctly interpreting the Word? Let’s see

By studying Phil. 3:4-8 one can discern that the Bible calls the old way you and I have learned through walking in the world “flesh.” Psychology would term these “memory traces in the brain.” By limiting its communications with the believer’s mind to these flesh patterns and employing only first person singular pronouns, the power of sin can present thoughts which are not only familiar, but seem as though they are being generated by one’s own mind. Once the believer “sets his mind” on them and accepts them they become his thoughts and he is deceived into “doing the very thing he does not wish” (Rom. 7:15).

A man who had his Ph.D. from a well-known evangelical seminary said to me, “Bill, in your teaching you are personifying sin by stating that the believer has a foreign power in his body which gives thoughts to him seeking to influence him to do evil. To my knowledge this has never been taught by the church.” He wasn’t hostile, just making an observation I pointed out it had been taught to the church…by Paul, who, via the Holy Spirit, was the doctrine’s principal penman. But, somewhere along the line we have ceased to teach it and the result has been defeated, impotent believers, a far cry from the first century church.

A tool which every Christian layman should have is An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words by W.E. Vine. Vine explains that the Greek word hamartia (which translates to the English “sin”) is a noun while hamartano (also translated “sin”) is a verb. In Romans 6:14 where Paul writes, “Sin shall not be master over you,” “sin” is a noun; while in verse 15, “Shall we sin…?” it is a verb. In Romans chapters 5-8 the word sin appears 41 times, once as a verb, forty times as a noun. Why is this important? Because if one interprets the word “sin” in Romans 5 through 8 as a verb, he will never understand these chapters which are so vital to walking in victory.

Through hearing hundreds of sermons and thousands of conversations in which sin was used as a verb, you and I have come to perceive the word “sin” only as an action word. Thus, when we read it in our Bibles we commonly perceive it as a verb.

It is critical that we understand this. In Rom. 5:21, 6:12, 14, 17; 17, 11, 14, 17, 20, 23, 25; 1 Cor. 15:56; Heb. 3:13, 11:25, 12:4; Jas. 1:15b Vine states of the noun hamartia. “THIS GOVERNING PRINCIPLE IS PERSONIFIED.” How can sin be personified, be “represented as a person?” It generates thoughts and presents them to your mind for your consideration, as they were your own thoughts! Incorrectly interpreting “sin” as a verb in these sixteen verses would have a similar effect on a Christian’s life as the student who never learned his locker combination. Instead of growing to maturity, he spins his wheel.

Sin personifies your extinct “old man” who was crucified in Christ. Sin feeds thoughts to your mind as if it were the old man generating the ideas (Rom. 7:20). You’ll think you are experiencing a monologue when in fact it’s a dialogue (parallel Rom 7:15, 17, 20). That is the way sin has deceived many Christians into teaching that the old man is still alive. They cite isolated verses in attempting to explain their experience. This is called “proof texting” and is not legitimate biblical interpretation. No one can accurately interpret Rom. 5-8 verse by verse and prove the old man still lives. It states that he died in Rom. 6:2,4,5,6,7,8,11,13, et.al. One life has resurrection power, Christ. Since the old man cannot resurrect himself, we must search the Word to se what God identifies as our opponent within. Rom. 5-8 says it is a power called “sin” (the noun).

As new men, we must be discerning about which thoughts originate in our minds and which ones are from this power, sin. In 2 Cor. 10:5, Paul writes, “…we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.” We have three sources of thought: our sound mind, the Holy Spirit and the power of sin. The thoughts from the Holy Spirit and our sound mind are godly. 1 Jn. 3:9 says the new man cannot sin. This means the new man’s mind cannot generate sinful thought, but it can surely receive sinful thought from the power of sin and put it into action. To prevent this, we must “take (sin’s) thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ” and act like we are dead to them (Rom. 6:11-12) but “alive to God” (Rom. 6:13). By employing this battle tactic “sin (the noun) shall not be master over you” (Rom. 6:14) deceiving you to sin (verb).

Where can this power reside if I am a new man? It lives within your body. The reason it can live there is because your body is not yet saved. It’s dying, but will be saved at the rapture (Rom. 8:23b). Your body is not evil, just condemned because it’s earthly. Even though it is the temple of the Holy Spirit, it can never enter into the presence of God until it’s changed.

This power is an agent of Satan. Sin (the noun) entered the world at the fall when Adam sinned (verb) (Rom. 5:12). Your body inherited it through your dad’s body and originally from Adam’s body. (This is one reason why it is imperative to understand that Jesus had no earthly dad. Sin didn’t indwell Him). It can personify itself. It has intelligence. It obeys its master, Satan. It can put thoughts into your mind. It seeks control.

We are the only Bible some folks ever read, so when we allow the power of sin to control our behavior, it damages Jesus’ credibility. The higher the profile Christian who publicly falls, the greater the smear on Jesus’ credibility. Playboy prints the lurid details and sin suggests to many Christians that they should read the article and see the photos so they can be “informed.” If the world sees us carrying out sin’s suggestion, we add to the smearing of Jesus’ good Name. Then they have more “proof” Christianity if a farce.

The power of sin strives to lead us into sinning so people will see little in us that will give Jesus credibility. More and more Christians are tubing it as God allows Satan to increase the pressure in these last dark days; but, along with this He is revealing more of Himself to those who hunger for Him. I grieve for the men and women who have "presented their members to sin (the noun)" (Rom. 6:13) to blight Jesus’ integrity before men. We do not condemn them, only what they have done. By dwelling on sin’s thoughts, they “did the very thing they do not wish” (Rom. 7:15) to satisfy the flesh. There, but for the grace of God, go I; but by that grace I do not have to give in to the power of sin’s urgings. "For sin (the noun) shall not be master over you” (Rom. 6:14). “He who has died is freed from sin (the noun)” (Rom. 6:7). “So consider yourselves to be dead to sin (the noun), but alive to God” (Rom. 6;11). It is only in following the imperative of these verses that we can realize consistent victory over sinning (the verb).

Sin (the noun) cannot master you (Rom. 6:14). It cannot make you sin. Jesus said, “A house divided against itself cannot stand” (Lk. 11:17). You are not divided against yourself! God has not set you up to guarantee failure! You have one Master (Jesus). Ignore sin’s thoughts which seek to control you and by Christ's life, walk in victory. You are dead to sin (the noun) so act like it. Let your Master express His life through you…and bring honor to Jesus, beginning in your own house.

© Lifetime Guarantee Ministries [published: 1988-05-01]
These articles are written for your spiritual growth. Copying, printing, and distribution are encouraged. Thank you for crediting Lifetime Guarantee Ministries and our website (www.lifetime.org) as the source.

http://www.gospelcom.net/lifetime/local/equipped/journalRead/149

The “Power of Sin” is not the Sin Nature
by Dr. Bill Gillham

I wrote an article entitled The Power of Sin in our May, 1988 Ministry Letter. In it I pointed out that the word “sin” appears forty-one times in Romans 5:8, forty times as a noun, once as a verb. That is one of the most astounding revelations I have ever received from the Holy Spirit. I believe that most people who read this section of Romans interpret the word sin as a verb, or if they do see it as a noun, they either interpret it as a single sin, which was committed, or as their sin nature.
As most of you know by now, Lifetime Guarantee teaches that Christians do not battle against themselves, but against the power of sin, an agent of the devil which works through the flesh (old ways) to try to control the soul (personality). When we lose this battle, we “do the thing which we do not wish” and fail to “do the thing we wish.” We do not “wish” to sin, and yet we sin.

The power of sin is what its name implies, a power to entice you into sin. It dwells in you (Rom.7:21) yet it is not you any more than a gold tooth that dwells in your mouth is you. Sin’s goal is to deceive the saints into living to get their needs (though good and godly) met by sinning rather than by using the Matt. 6:33 method; that is, “seeking Christ first.”

The power of sin is not your sin nature. Your sin nature is a synonym for old man or old self. That “old you” was crucified in Christ (Rom. 6:6). Before you were saved, it was as normal for you old nature to rebel against God’s authority as it is for a fish to swim. However, with salvation the new you hates to sin (Rom. 7:15a, 19,22). That’s why the Bible addresses Christians 56 times as “saints” (holy one) rather than sinners saved by grace like we’ve erroneously believed. Even the Corinthians, the most carnal church in the epistles, are called “sanctified” and “saints” (1 Cor. 1:2).

Yet the power of sin is alive and well in you, saint. It indwells your body (Rom. 7:23). On page 1055 of W.E. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, Vine states that sin is, “a governing principle or power” that is “personified” in the following passages. He then lists sixteen verses in which this holds true. The term personified means “represented as a person.” The power of sin can represent itself as a personage.

You have heard us teach that the power of sin’s key tactic is to personify itself as your sin nature, the old man or the old you who was crucified with Christ. It accomplishes this by sending thoughts into your sound mind, the “mind of Christ” (1 Cor. 2:16) with first person singular pronouns in order to deceive you into believing that the old you has somehow jumped off the cross to “do the very thing you do not wish to do." Hey, nobody but Jesus can come down from a cross.

Let’s examine a few of the sixteen verses where Vine says the word hamartia, the Greek noun translated “sin,” is personified.

“Therefore, do not let sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts” (Rom. 6:14). Mr. Sin (the personification) cannot master you. Since sin is personified, let’s call it “Mr. Sin” so we won’t confuse it with the verb. Mr. Sin tries to control you, to make you live to satisfy your bodily needs.

“For sin shall not be master over you…(Rom. 6:14). Mr. Sin (the personification) cannot master you. Remember how sin is “represented as a person?” It tries to master you through presenting thoughts to your mind by masquerading as the old man who has risen from the tomb. But no one except Jesus can do that, right? That’s not the old man; it’s the power of sin personified.

“But thanks be to God that though you were slaves to Mr. Sin you became obedient from the (new) heart…and having been freed from Mr. Sin, you became slaves of righteousness” (Rom. 6:17-18). In both instances above, sin is a noun. It doesn’t say, “you were freed from sinning (verb)”; rather, it teaches that you have been freed from being controlled by the power of sin, which results in sinning. There’s a tremendous difference. The first would be robotical sinless perfection; the second would require a moment-by-moment appropriation of your freedom from being controlled by Mr. Sin.

“But, if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but Mr. Sin which indwells me (is somehow doing it)” (Rom. 7:20). This verse can really be a puzzler if you interpret the word “sin” as a verb. But it’s a noun, and Vine says it is personified (represented as a person). How is the power of sin involved in your sinning? The same way wind is involved in a windmill, electricity in a light bulb, water in a hydroelectric generator, or gasoline in an engine. It’s a power. If you let it, it will control you and you will sin (verb).

In the same way, Christ is your wind, electricity, water or gasoline, for righteous behavior if you will believe He is and act like He is by faith. He, Himself, is the power in the Christian life.

“But, I see a different law in the members of the Christian lie war against the law of my mind, and making me prisoner of the law of Mr. Sin…” (Rom. 7:23). Mr. Sin, the “personage,” wars, fights and seeks to control your mind. But your mind does not want to be controlled by this power, so it fights back. In a war there must be at least two sides represented and they must oppose one another. Otherwise the war would cease. Mr. Sin is on Satan’s side, so whose side is your mind on? God’s (1 Cor. 2:16). Otherwise the war would cease! You hate to sin, right? You like to get your human needs met (and that’s not evil), but you hate to sin in order to accomplish it.

The new man is a good person (saint) in Christ. Read the first eight verses of 1 Corinthians to discern what Paul has to say about the Corinthians’ true identity in Christ. He calls them “saints (holy),” “confirmed to the end,” “blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus,” etc. After reminding them of who they are, he kicks the daylights out of them because they are not acting like who they really are.

Can you see what a difference this makes in motivating a Christian as opposed to berating him by constantly telling him what a sorry, no-good sinner he is and how he is going to face an angry God some day? Folk, it’s our works which will be judged in the future, not our personhood (2 Cor. 5:10) and God is not mad at the saved. He took out all the anger He had against us on Jesus (Isa. 53). We’ll either be rewarded or we’ll lose what we potentially could have won, but “there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ” (Rom. 8:1).

“The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law” (1 Cor. 15:56). The Law is the source of Mr. Sin’s strength. To couple law with Mr. Sin is like pouring gas on a fire. This personage called sin needs a law to aid it if it is to optimally control you. It “eats, breathes and sleeps” via the Law.

“The Law is not made for a righteous man” (1 Tim. 1:9). Why? Because you, the righteous man (2 Cor. 5:21), don’t need it. The lost man does (in order to show him his condition), but you don’t. You now “have the laws of God written on (your) heart and mind” (Heb. 10:16). God’s ethical, moral law of agape is built into the new creation. You desire to obey God. Choose to let that law control you and you will keep the Commandments. Jesus summed them up in loving God and others (Mk. 12:30-31).

“But encourage one another…lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of Mr. Sin” (Heb. 3:13b). In this verse, sin is represented as a personage which can harden you through deception. It’s not talking about the deceitfulness of a single sinful act, but of a power called sin which “wars against your mind” (Rom. 7:23).

“You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against Mr. Sin” (Heb. 12:4). This is speaking of Jesus in the garden, not on the cross. He “sweat great drops of blood” as He struggled against this power called “sin” which was trying to coerce Him into rebelling against the Father God. But He won! And He continues to win in and through us if we, too, will learn that we are “dead to Mr. Sin” (Rom. 6:11).

These are some of the verses in which Vine says the word sin is personified. As I have studied the Word, I believer there are additional ones which he does not mention. In any case, it was exciting to discover that a man of Vine’s stature as a scholar testifies that the power of sin is often personified in the Word. What liberty there is in knowing that the rebellious, evil, hateful thoughts I experience are being presented to my mind, not generated by it. By simply standing on God’s Word and thinking, “Nope. I’m dead to you Mr. Sin. That’s not my idea,” and then acting “alive to God through Christ”, I have victory over the power of sin. Truly, “Mr. Sin shall not be master over you…” (Rom. 6:14a) when you act and therefore live like you are dead to its thought and alive to Christ.

© Lifetime Guarantee Ministries [published: 1988-11-01]
These articles are written for your spiritual growth. Copying, printing, and distribution are encouraged. Thank you for crediting Lifetime Guarantee Ministries and our website (www.lifetime.org) as the source.

Timothy

November 7th, 2003, 12:29 PM

Yes, "sin" can be used as a verb and a noun and it's not hard to recognize the difference. There is also a difference between "sin" and "sins" (both nouns), but that's another topic.

Originally posted by joyttw ...No one can accurately interpret Rom. 5-8 verse by verse and prove the old man still lives. It states that he died in Rom. 6:2,4,5,6,7,8,11,13, et.al. One life has resurrection power, Christ. Since the old man cannot resurrect himself, we must search the Word to se what God identifies as our opponent within. Rom. 5-8 says it is a power called “sin” (the noun).

There is a clear distinction that is not being recognized, which I mentioned earlier. Yes, the old man was crucified with him at calvary.

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Here is where the distinction is not recognized. According to what you posted, the old man no longer lives (i.e. "no one can prove the old man still lives"). So here is the question:

Does Paul Contradict himself? If the old man is crucified at calvary, and no longer exists, why would Paul instruct us to "put off" the old man if it is already dead? Why would Paul use the present tense ("is") to describe the old man as being deceitful and lustful? If it is dead, how could it presently be deceitful and lustful?

Ephesians 4:22-24 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

You see, in the eyes of God the old man is dead. God counts it as being dead. But the old man is still very much alive to us (experientally). This is why we have to put off the old man by renewing our minds through knowledge. Look at it this way, the old man has a death sentence and is on death row. We need to recognize that the old man has a death sentence, and put it off, and treat it as dead, and reckoning ourselves as being dead to sin. The "old man" is our "former conversation" (or fromer self), not who we are in Christ now.

Here is another example along the exact same lines.

Is your body (or flesh) dead or alive?

Romans 8:12 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

If your saved, the body is dead and the flesh is crucified. How can this be? It is because in the eyes of God, the body is dead. It is obviously still alive to us. See the same distinction? Like the old man, we are to treat it as being dead, and not focus on trying to "fix" it, and instead focus on the new man, how God sees us through Christ. By thinking about this and writing this, it is actually becoming even more clear to me. That distinction is pivotal.

Originally posted by joyttw ...You are dead to sin (the noun) so act like it. Let your Master express His life through you…and bring honor to Jesus, beginning in your own house.... As most of you know by now, Lifetime Guarantee teaches that Christians do not battle against themselves, but against the power of sin, an agent of the devil which works through the flesh (old ways) to try to control the soul (personality).

In the eyes of God we only have one nature, but the flesh (our old nature) is still alive to us.

This is clear from the response you posted. "The flesh (old ways)" mentioned in your post SURE SOUNDS LIKE the old man or old nature stuggling for "control of the soul" to me.

Given that statement, don't you see it's double talk to say that the believer EXPERIENTALLY does not struggle against TWO natures - flesh (old ways) vs. spirit (new ways)?

Does Paul further contradict himself? In Romans Paul says the flesh is dead. In Galatians he says that the flesh lusts against the spirit, a clear indication that the flesh is still alive.

Galatians 5:17-18 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

We do battle against ourselves per se, our old self and new self, flesh and spirit. I don't see how this can be denied. If we walk in the spirit, we don't fulfill the lust of the flesh, and vice versa. Both are alive to us, and contrary, but in the eyes of God the flesh is dead. They key is recognizing which is dead to God and which is alive to God, and treating them as such. We can't fix the flesh. It is dead to God, so reckon it that way, count on it. The recommended actions and responses in what you posted are absolutely correct when it says "You are dead to sin (the noun) so act like it"

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The power over sin (noun) is recognizing that we are dead to it.