UFO'S & The BIBLE

[just_jim]

A thickly-settled suburb of a major U.S. city.

Winter, circa 1975.

Around 7 pm, est., clear, dark sky.

Bitter cold

I will point out we were stone-cold sober and drug-free on the day, and at the time of this incident. I was not a Christian then, nor for about 18 years after, and had virtually no religious influence in my upbringing.

'June', my girlfriend-at-the-time (not her real name) and I decided to leave my parents house and go out for a burger. As we approached a ' T ' in the road (an immense cemetery was at the top of the ' T ', & the stone wall stretches for a mile or more along my passenger side), as soon as we began to turn left, looking thru the skeletons of the many leafless trees, I said "What's that light in the cemetery? June said "It looks like a fire", I said that a fire doesn't burn in mid-air! ...and it's moving!

Knowing well the lay-out of the cemetery, as I had fished it's pond & rode my bike in it since I was old enough to cross the street, I knew right away it was something beyond anything I had (or since have) ever seen! "It's a UFO!" I said excitedly, "and it's following us!", as it paralleled us, at our speed, still low in the cemetery, thru the trees, roughly 50 yards from the road, at this point.

"I'm going in after it!" (foolish, fearless youth that I was) I floored the Chevy's pedal & it sped ahead, at the very same moment June screamed "No, let me out!" and she meant it too as she opened my door & was attempting to jump from my speeding car! Yes, this was no ordinary unexplained 'light in the sky' friends. Hitting the breaks hard as I literally grabber her to prevent her from jumping, I was forced to promise her, thru her tears of terror that I would not go in, but it was still there, slowing as I had slowed. "I'll turn up a side-street (up a slight hill) and we'll see what it does" I declared.

I recall right after making this 'deal' with her, loosing sight of it for a minute or so, as I turned up the street & turned the car around to face the cemetery, and it was now very low and right over my fishing hole, which is coincidently (?) where one of my family's burial plots is, though none of my family was buried at that particular spot at the time of this sighting. "It's landing by the pond" I exclaimed!

Parking in the middle of the street (thinking surely someone will drive by, come out of a house, etc., anyone, to see this thing too, or so I hoped) I recall us both standing in front of my car, I was standing on a manhole cover, this is how vivid my recall is to this day. It was still at this point mostly a series of golden 'fires' or 'lights' within a barely visible outline almost the color of the dark winters night itself. From about the level of the tops of the trees, which are about 30 feet high or so, we saw it continue to slowly descend until it was completely out of our view.

We stood there for what seemed like forever, but could have been 2-5 minutes, "It's gone, lets go home!" she said, probably several times. "No, it landed, It has to come back up" I foolishly answered, not knowing at the time that it did/does not have to do anything we believe it must, as our laws of physics, gravity, and everything else apply only to our own narrow little world of comprehension, as I learned that night.

Well, eventually it did come up & was slowly coming straight at us! As it lazily cleared the last tree & crossed the street, I was able to estimate, by it's relationship to the tree tops, that it was about 30-35 feet long, & around 12 feet tall at its pinnacle. Slowly, so very slowly, seemingly not even moving, but more just 'floating', it came the 80-100 yards up the street, at about 20' above the telephone poles that lined the street, slightly to our right, as to be about over (& just barely above) the houses on the right side. At one point I could have hit it with a rock.

I remember thinking surely someone must drive by or come out, someone else must be watching this 'vehicle of fire' or light! But no one came. We did not speak further once it came up, not of it's doing, but I believe of sheer awe. And so we stood, silent, motionless, frozen in our shoes, my mouth opened, jaw dropped to where it became painful. Watching.

At some point, possibly when it had just gone from sight, I said as much to myself as to June that it wanted us to see it, she agreed. When we were discussing it later, in addition to what's noted, she also agreed that it had followed us, had landed (though we never actually saw it on the ground or water, as it was below our line-of-sight) and that it purposely came right over us.

The Description: (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Eze/Eze001.html#top) I've given the height/width, now the specifics, first what both June and I agree we saw; It was always off to one side, just slightly, giving it more of a cigar-shape than that of one saucer upon another (the more common UFO description), but this was only our perspective, it could have been either shape, depending on perspective, in my opinion.

It was full of 'eyes', or round portholes, about 8 in all (as it seemed neither of us had counted them, likely from the shock, and it was a shock to behold), which were in line & equally spaced just above it's center line, that is, if it had a center line, or any lines at all, which it did not. This uniform ring of portholes did not seem to 'wrap around' so I personally believe it to be a cigar shaped 'vehicle' (June didn't have a firm opinion on shape, at least that I recall, she was more upset than excited by this whole event, in my opinion) My estimation of the circumference of an eye would be around 2-2.5' each. The cigar shaped 'body' appeared to reflect the night itself, if pressed to describe it's color, pewter or gun-metal gray, but it was likely only a reflection of the night's 'color' that we were seeing.

Inside, that's right, I could see inside it, thru the portholes, but I wouldn't know how to describe it's inside beyond brilliant, it's beyond my comprehension even to this day, plus it was like looking at the sun, making it very difficult to be sure of what I think I saw in it. June would only agree to the interior's brightness, which was the most brilliant golden/amber 'glow', for lack of a better term, (Shekina?) that I have ever, or likely will ever see in this life, unless I'm alive for the return of Christ. It was barely able to be looked upon, as if it contained the sun itself! Most startling, and June did not see this, I recall the 'light' from it's 2nd or 3rd porthole was partially blocked by what I believed to be a 'being' looking back at us. I will not describe this 'being' now, for several reasons. First, June did not see this, secondly, it would be just my opinion, as everything to this point has been, to me, fact. There is more to this 'being' which I may attempt to explain in my next, more 'Biblical' post. not[/u] believe it was God, as someone asked me in PM.]

Well... it didn't do any spectacular zigzagging or any fast movements at all. When it was right above us, and off to our right, it might have even hovered a bit, as it was so very slow to begin with, almost painfully slow. It made no discernable sound. Then it just kind of went up almost straight, but slightly to our right, as slowly as it could, painfully slow. A child's helium balloon would have beaten it in a race like a Corvette racing a bicycle. It took 5-10 minutes to fade from a vessel within my throwing range, to a tiny dot, to out of our sight.

We rushed back to my parents home and could not contain ourselves as we told my mom. It was immediately apparent that this was not a good idea, telling people, that is. Until about three years ago, I could count the number of people I have told this to on one hand. My mom first tried to calm us, as we wanted to call... who do you call? police, newspapers, I don't know now, but she told us not to, that no one would believe us and that we would get in trouble. She was right [Mothers always are!]. To this day I still don't know if she even believed us, or me, as June & I parted company that very summer, but I know that she believes that [i]we believe what we saw, and I don't know if I could ask anyone for more than that.



Other subsequent *unexplained sightings, all since 1987, I cannot recall the dates any more precisely, except the last one:

As myself & an employee were crawling up a packed, major highway in our area at late rush-hour, just after it had rained, enjoying a beautiful double rainbow, we saw a red light, it was no more than a red 'dot', a plane we thought at first, far ahead, way off to our left & seemingly very high up. Eventually we noticed it sat in the sky, motionless, for way to long. Suddenly, almost without seeing it move, it shot to the other side of the highway, now way off to the right, stopped instantly, and was once again still. We lost sight of it when passing some tall buildings.

One night while coming home from class alone, as I came over the top of a steep hill near home, I saw many, many red lights seemingly everywhere in the sky ahead, almost as if stars. I parked at the bottom of the hill and got out. They seemed miles & miles up, 10, 20, maybe 50 miles, I have no idea, but it now appeared not to be many individual lights, but one huge *triangle having many red and white lights. Though I could make out no discernable outline apart from the pattern of the lights it seemed to be one single entity! Without any reference point[s], as I was able to establish with the 'cigar-shaped' vehicle's proximity to the tree tops in my first & only absolute encounter, I can only 'guesstimate', but I believe it to have been at least several miles wide, possibly even much wider, depending on it's actual height. It slowly moved away, & eventually I could not see it behind the steep hills. It appeared to gradually change it's *shape, but it could have been slowly turning, or revolving, which might have made it only appear to change it's shape, I could not see the whole of it at any one time, for the surrounding hills, as it was, or appeared to be, just that enormous! I have great difficulty comprehending this sighting still, and with the unknown distance, it's seeming to change shape, etc., all factored in, I prefer to call it nothing more than strange lights in the sky. Otherwise my tiny brain hurts. [Correction: I have since recalled what class it was that I was returning from, I'm tempted to place this 'sighting' circa 1997

I also saw 2 or 3 silver 'orbs' while on a leisurely day-time bike ride maybe 3-4 years ago [I was riding the bike, not the orbs]. Maybe the size of basketballs or small beach balls[again, no reference point], they seemed almost 'playful' as they moved about, seemingly respective of each other, at least that's the impression I had. They were in, then up and out of my sight in a minute or less, at a busy intersection.

For the record, I personally regard the last three sightings as nothing but *unexplained 'lights', but my initial 'close encounter' is undeniable to me, and second only to my 'call' from the Living God of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob some ten years ago.


I should declare that God does not require a vehicle. Neither do I believe God is an 'alien', or that we were 'cloned' by some 'space-race' or any other such non-biblical foolishness. I believe in every word of God. In my opinion God is omnipotent. Selah.[i]Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Isa 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven [is] my throne, and the earth [is] my footstool: where [is] the house that ye build unto me? and where [is] the place of my rest?

Deu 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider [it] in thine heart, that the LORD he [is] God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: [there is] none else.

Why am I making this public now, opening myself to ridicule and possibly risking my credibility?

Actually I decided to make this public about three years ago, and I have been trying to reach, to teach the 'UFO culture' on the 'net' the Biblical truth behind what they have seen, &/or believe to be present in our skies.


How is any of this relevant to the Bible?

Fair question. Some of you who have posted in this thread (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65034) obviously know, and I pray you will expound. I also will answer this and other related questions, if able, as soon as I can find the time, likely within the next few days. I have the flu & it might take a little while to reply. No, I don't know for sure if satan & co. have "wheels" &/or "Horses [and] Chariots of Fire", but I do know God does!

To mock, please go to "Do You Believe In UFO'S (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67370)" thread in the 'Polls' forum and join the others.


Thank you for reading this.

[just_jim]

So... Who's flying em?

THE CHERUBIM? (http://www.angelfire.com/nv/TheOliveBranch/append41.html)

THE NEPHILIM? (http://www.angelfire.com/nv/TheOliveBranch/append25.html)


...OR BOTH?


[All quotes E.W.Bullinger's The Companion Bible] (http://www.pilkingtonandsons.com/BullingerBooks.htm)

[Ltanner09]

The one I saw in the early 60's (about 5-6 of us, all kids) appeared to be a ball of fire, going south to north and not very fast.

Of course we were basicially ignored by the adults and the news reported it was a test aircraft. (Someone else must have called in the sighting, as 10 year old kids would be ignored by the media).

The ball of fire seemed to be 50 or so feet above the trees and a few hundred feet to our west.

Meteors don't travel at a slow rate of speed and it certainly was NOT a test aircraft.

I often wish I had been a bit older when the sighting occured and noticed details that my 10 year old eyes weren't prepared to see.

But trying to explain it to those who have never seen anything "unexplainable" is useless.

You're either looked at as a nut case, or people just shrug their shoulders (and roll their eyes).

[Arkycharlie]

Jim, I've always had a strong interest in UFO and related phenomena. In the last three to four months I've probably read 20 or more books on the subject. I'm currently reading "Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind : Alien Abduction, UFOs, and the Conference at M.I.T.". John Mack made an interesting observation in the book, something to the effect that the closer one gets (through study and/or first hand investigation) to the so-called alien abduction phenomonen, the more utterly convincing it is that something totally outside our western reality construct is actually occurring. The more I read and study the subject, the more obvious it is to me that it is pure evil and a direct manifestation of "the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places". The only thing that I've not yet formed a strong opinion on is whether or not this is going to play a significant role in last days events leading up to the rapture, armageddon, and the return of Christ. I tend to believe that it will, but I can find very little in Scripture that appears to me to lend strong support to this theory. Maybe I'm missing something here. I'd be interested in your thoughts in this regard.

For those who may want to delve into the subject, you will find a very good list of recommended reading here http://www.michaelsheiser.com/mshbookstore.htm

charlie

[just_jim]

...thanks for the url. Yes, I've read & watched John Mack [Harvard] a bit. I agree there is something far beyond our ability to comprehend occurring, Im not totally convinced there are actual abductions, but I certainly have not ruled it out. Im also not sure it's all "evil" [and therein lies the problem].

I would like to explore this topic further. I'm also slowly crawling toward a bland crescendo as to why I have posted my sightings here. :neutral



An author/lecturer friend once mentioned, if my memory serves me, that in the "Six Day War" of 1967, many Arabs reported seeing great horses & chariots in the sky & dropped their weapons, and/or abandoned their vehicles and ran for stark fear. I wonder if anyone else has heard this? I will see if he can provide further information, as a 'net' search turned up nothing.


With that in mind, [if it is true, or at least verifiable] what would you make of this?

2Sa 22:7 In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried to my God: and he did hear my voice out of his temple, and my cry [did enter] into his ears.

2Sa 22:8 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because he was wroth.

2Sa 22:9 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

2Sa 22:10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness [was] under his feet.

2Sa 22:11 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.


2Sa 22:19 They prevented me in the day of my calamity: but the LORD was my stay.
--------------

Other verses that might pertain to this topic:

Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

Isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

Isa 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, [is] the LORD of hosts: the whole earth [is] full of his glory.

Isa 6:4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe [is] me! for I am undone; because I [am] a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

Isa 6:6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, [which] he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:

Isa 6:7 And he laid [it] upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

Isa 17:13 The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters: but [God] shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off, and shall be chased as the chaff of the mountains before the wind, and like a rolling thing before the whirlwind.

Isa 18:1 Woe to the land shadowing with wings, which [is] beyond the rivers of Ethiopia:

---------------

Jer 48:40 For thus saith the LORD; Behold, he shall fly as an eagle, and shall spread his wings over Moab.

---------------

Zec 5,6

--------------

Dan 7:4 The first [was] like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

[annie10]

Hi,

I beleive that UFO and Aliens = Fallen Angels.

For a long time I was interested in Aliens, and thought many times and read many thngs about them. How everything they do, seems to defy the laws of nature and gravity and every other law there is.

So I did come to the conclusion that these beings where in fact "The Fallen Angels' of Noah's day.

These Fallen Angels tried to contaminate the human race, and tried to prevent the birth of Jesus through the line of David. Only Noah and his family it seems at that time where not contaminated.

And "The fallen Angels" tried to stop the Israelites from entering the land given to them by God. When the Children of Israel, came into the Land they found Giants. Again Satan trying to prevent what God was trying to do.

I beleive that these "Fallen Angels" are trying now to bring about the ultimate deception. "Aliens have landed" and they will help us bring about peace". Too many people now are beleiving these lies.

It seems to me, that most people who say they have been abducted , have not had a wonderful experience, and everyone describes them as grey and dark. If they where Angels from God, they would be beautiful and full of light.

Just my opinion!!!!!!!!:)

[just_jim]

Originally posted by annie10
Hi,

I beleive that UFO and Aliens = Fallen Angels.

For a long time I was interested in Aliens, and thought many times and read many thngs about them. How everything they do, seems to defy the laws of nature and gravity and every other law there is.

So I did come to the conclusion that these beings where in fact "The Fallen Angels' of Noah's day.

*These Fallen Angels tried to contaminate the human race, and tried to prevent the birth of Jesus through the line of David. Only Noah and his family it seems at that time where not contaminated.

*And "The fallen Angels" tried to stop the Israelites from entering the land given to them by God. When the Children of Israel, came into the Land they found Giants. Again Satan trying to prevent what God was trying to do.

I beleive that these "Fallen Angels" are trying now to bring about the ultimate deception. "Aliens have landed" and they will help us bring about peace". Too many people now are beleiving these lies.

It seems to me, that most people who say they have been abducted , have not had a wonderful experience, and everyone describes them as grey and dark. If they where Angels from God, they would be beautiful and full of light.

Just my opinion!!!!!!!!:)

That was you in that room full of 'scholars'!!! ;)

[I hope to speak with you soon Re: the *comments above]


Now, how would you apply what you have said above to these seemingly contrary verses below?
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

[annie10]

just_jim,

I don't see any contradiction. The angels that did leave their first abode and took part in the devastation in Noah's days, are in Hell in chains awaiting their faith at "The Great White Throne Judgement". As God tells us they are.

There are still probably millions and millions of Demons around today, to do Satan's will and to create the great deception that is to come.

Maybe the reason they are not mixing with us any more is that sometime in history God has forbiden it . After all Satan and his demons can only do what God allows them to do.

So satan has to try another way now, to stop what God wants to do. And that is to bring back the nation of Israel to Himself. That will be Satan greatest goal during the Tribulation. He will try to kill every Jewish person there is. If they cannot call on the Lord their Messiah to save them, he beleives he will win, and stop God's Kingdom from comming.

:) :)

[just_jim]

I guess my point was how are they free, if they are bound?

Are we understanding 'chains' in the same way?

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath *reserved in *everlasting *chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


*reserved = (Strong's 5083)
Greek for 5083

Pronunciation Guide
tereo {tay-reh'-o}

TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 8:140,1174 from teros (a watch, perhaps akin to 2334)
Part of Speech
v
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to attend to carefully, take care of

a) to guard

b) metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is

c) to observe

d) to reserve: to undergo something
For Synonyms see entry 5874

-------------------------------------

*everlasting = (Strong's 126)
Greek for 126

Pronunciation Guide
aidios {ah-id'-ee-os}

TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 1:168,25 from 104
Part of Speech
adj

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) eternal, everlasting
For Synonyms see entry 5801

----------------------------------------

*chains = (Strong's 4577)

Greek for 4577

seira

1) a line, a rope
2) a chain

[annie10]

just, :D ;)

"They had left their first abode". Meaning heaven or the spiritual realm let say.

They came down to earth, took on human bodies, and took for themselves wives.

So these Angels who did this are now bound in chains in Hell awaiting "The Great White Throne Judgement".

They are not free. Not all the angels who left with satan took part in the corruption of the human race.

or Paul would not have to warn us "To put on the Full Armour of God" and he said" Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

So if all demons where chained in Hell right now, there would have been no reason for Paul to say this.

No Satan and his demons who did not take part in the corruption of the human race, are up to something else these days. And they are working over time now, because their days are getting short.

[just_jim]

Originally posted by annie10
just, :D ;)

"They had left their first abode". Meaning heaven or the spiritual realm let say.

They came down to earth, took on human bodies, and took for themselves wives.

So these Angels who did this are now bound in chains in Hell awaiting "The Great White Throne Judgement".

They are not free.

or Paul would not have to warn us "To put on the Full Armour of God" and he said" Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

So if all demons where chained in Hell right now, there would have been no reason for Paul to say this.

No Satan and his demons who did not take part in the corruption of the human race, are up to something else these days. And they are working over time now, because their days are getting short.

Ok, I understand what your saying now.


"Not all the angels who left with satan took part in the corruption of the human race."

The very act of leaving their 'own dominion' was a great disobedience against God.

[annie10]

The very act of leaving their 'own dominion' was a great disobedience against God.


Yes they dissobeyed God and sinned against him.
:(

[NuclearStrife]

Now, maybe its just me, but if there are billions and billions of other solar systems in the universe as scientists say, then hypothetically, there'd be a practically uncountable number of planets in those solar system. My guess would be that the odds of any other race finding our tiny planet out of all the other billions and then managing to make it here would just be too improbable to make alien encounters true. Just my thoughts. Anyone think so?

[just_jim]

Originally posted by NuclearStrife
Now, maybe its just me, but if there are billions and billions of other solar systems in the universe as scientists say, then hypothetically, there'd be a practically uncountable number of planets in those solar system. My guess would be that the odds of any other race finding our tiny planet out of all the other billions and then managing to make it here would just be too improbable to make alien encounters true. Just my thoughts. Anyone think so?

I dont think anyone is speaking of some "other race" from some other planet in this thread.

--------------------------------------------

Enoch 15:3 (http://www.reluctant-messenger.com/1enoch01-60.htm#Chapter15) You being spiritual, holy, and possessing a life which is eternal, have polluted yourselves with women; have begotten in carnal blood; have lusted in the blood of men; and have done as those who are flesh and blood do.

4These however die and perish.

5Therefore have I given to them wives, that they might cohabit with them; that sons might be born of them; and that this might be transacted upon earth.

6But you from the beginning were made spiritual, possessing a life which is eternal, and not subject to death for ever.

7Therefore I made not wives for you, because, being spiritual, your dwelling is in heaven.

8Now the giants, who have been born of spirit and of flesh, shall be called upon earth evil spirits, and on earth shall be their habitation. *Evil spirits shall proceed from their flesh, because they were created from above; from the holy Watchers was their beginning and primary foundation. *Evil spirits shall they be upon earth, and the spirits of the wicked shall they be called. The habitation of the spirits of heaven shall be in heaven; but upon earth shall be the habitation of terrestrial spirits, who are born on earth.

(24) Note the many implications of vss. 3-8 regarding the progeny of evil spirits.

9The spirits of the giants shall be like clouds, (25) which shall oppress, corrupt, fall, content, and bruise upon earth.

(25) The Greek word for "clouds" here, nephelas, may disguise a more ancient reading, Napheleim (Nephilim).

10They shall cause lamentation. No food shall they eat; and they shall be thirsty; they shall be concealed, and shall not (26) rise up against the sons of men, and against women; for they come forth during the days of slaughter and destruction.

(26) Shall not. Nearly all manuscripts contain this negative, but Charles, Knibb, and others believe the "not" should be deleted so the phrase reads "shall rise up."

[mephib]

I think aliens will be part of the final deception, a deception so great that even the elect would be decieved, were that possible.(paraphrasing)

Aliens are demonic manifestations, I am convinced. If they are not, and are from another planet, then they are irrevocably evil, because they are sinners and have no savior.

Christ died once, as a man. He will not do it again as another type of creature, as he will stay in human form for eternity.

[just_jim]

Originally posted by mephib
I think aliens will be part of the final deception, a deception so great that even the elect would be decieved, were that possible.(paraphrasing)

Aliens are demonic manifestations, I am convinced. If they are not, and are from another planet, then they are irrevocably evil, because they are sinners and have no savior.



Though Im not sure about your first comment mephib, I don't necessarily disagree overall.

But what of the many angelic occurrences of "Horses ...and Chariots of Fire" and of Ezekiel's 'wheels', that seem to be omnipresent with God?

Surely everything in the 'air' cannot be malevolent?



Someone sent this url, it's very interesting. (http://www.prophecyinthenews.com/articledetail.asp?Article_ID=93)


"...Two facts emerge here. One, angels can physically intercede in human battles. And two, they can take on the form that suits the culture and situation of the moment. Chariots of fire have been seen for millennia. They are regularly seen today. However, no one today, sees them being pulled by horses. In the present cultural medium, such fiery chariots would be interpreted by twenty-first century eyes as "high-tech." Perhaps they would look like rockets or saucers ringed by fire.

But the angels were there for one purpose, to make sure that Elisha was protected, and that Israel went undefeated. In this incident, they made sure that Israel survived, according to the will of God."

[annie10]

just_jim:

your PM is full!!!!!:)

[just_jim]

Originally posted by annie10
just_jim:

your PM is full!!!!!:)


[Thanks. Sorry.]



Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire.

[mephib]

Not everything "in the air" is malevolent, but everything in the air posing as aliens is malevolent.

Aliens come to confuse, scare, and disorient, in order to make our God and our doctrine seem insufficient. They want us to doubt God, His authority and His power, by showing us something out of our comfort zone.

But if the Lord is already out of one's comfort zone, and He should be, because He is inscrutable, mysterious, and holy, then aliens will not distract or disturb.

Remember what Mrs. Beaver said in the Lion, Witch, and Wardrobe? "Safe? No, Aslan's not safe. But He's good, very good!"

[just_jim]

Originally posted by mephib
Not everything "in the air" is malevolent, but everything in the air posing as aliens is malevolent.

Aliens come to confuse, scare, and disorient, in order to make our God and our doctrine seem insufficient. They want us to doubt God, His authority and His power, by showing us something out of our comfort zone.

But if the Lord is already out of one's comfort zone, and He should be, because He is inscrutable, mysterious, and holy, then aliens will not distract or disturb.

Remember what Mrs. Beaver said in the Lion, Witch, and Wardrobe? "Safe? No, Aslan's not safe. But He's good, very good!"

I guess what im asking is how we can know the difference between a 'UFO' of God's, whether it be a "Wheel" or a "Chariot of fire", who's occurrences we can read of throughout scripture, or one that might be of satan, assuming satan even has such vehicles, as *scripture may or may not verify that satan does? (I personally believe he does, and all should beware things we 'see', especially in these times, yet if we are to understand Ezekiel's "Wheels" or "Horses and Chariots of Fire", we must speak of these things, to not be fooled/surprised.)

*2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.




Someone sent this URL, it's very interesting. (http://www.prophecyinthenews.com/articledetail.asp?Article_ID=93) "...they can take on the form that suits the culture and situation of the moment. Chariots of fire have been seen for millennia. They are regularly seen today. However, no one today, sees them being pulled by horses. In the present cultural medium, such fiery chariots would be interpreted by twenty-first century eyes as "high-tech." Perhaps they would look like rockets or saucers ringed by fire.

But the angels were there for one purpose, to make sure that Elisha was protected, and that Israel went undefeated. In this incident, they made sure that Israel survived, according to the will of God."

[Sane]

Originally posted by NuclearStrife
Now, maybe its just me, but if there are billions and billions of other solar systems in the universe as scientists say, then hypothetically, there'd be a practically uncountable number of planets in those solar system. My guess would be that the odds of any other race finding our tiny planet out of all the other billions and then managing to make it here would just be too improbable to make alien encounters true. Just my thoughts. Anyone think so?

Just for fun I would've usually said that how could it be proven when we nor scientist have never seen another race other than those on Earth, never studied them, spoke with them, understood them...let alone know what they're capable off.

If given enough time even we would probably eventually develop ways to travel across the universe to visit other solar systems.

Scientist use to believe the world was flat and that it was impossible to sail around the world yet someone did it.

So I could never understand how people bought into the fact that scientist claim there is "Definitely NO POSSIBLE WAY LIFE CAN EXIST OTHER THAN EARTH!"

I mean humans can't survive under water without oxygen, yet fish do? An example there.....

Who says Aliens (If there were any at all, which I don't believe there are) Has to breath oxygen and depend on water....

Too me that's boxing yourself in the corner and putting rules on the rest of the universe. We are not God, we have no say in how the rest of the universe must survive.

Don't get me wrong I know enough about the laws of gravity, physics, etc. etc. to know the basic necessities of life "ON EARTH!"

But like I said before (In my old days) That doesn't mean life somewhere else is bound by these same rules. Life forms in a variety of ways....not the same over and over and over again.

But now I agree with the people who say that Aliens are part of the end times. They are more than likely some type of fallen angel, or whatever....

That's my two cents....and again no I don't believe that there is life on other worlds, simply because there is not enough evidence in the Bible to support it.

[theTruth]

Originally posted by annie10


They came down to earth, took on human bodies, and took for themselves wives.

Stop and think for a moment.

Spirit beings cannot create anything. Only God has the power to create. You are giving the power of creation to angels by having them "turn into humans" and fornicate with women.

Angels are neither male nor female. They are spirit not flesh.
Angels have no sexual parts. You have them making sexual parts for themselves (an act of creation) since they were not created with those parts to begin with.

Angels do not have the ability to create anything.

They have the ability to take on the APPEARANCE of flesh but they remain spirit beings they do not "turn in to flesh."

[just_jim]

From a recent post: (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=725221#post725221)


Originally posted by kenneth

"Angels are non-corporeal beings, with no genetic material to pass on, as needed to father children. When believers and non-believers get married today, a race of giants is not the result. This passage is just another example of unsoved Bible mysteries we have just have to live with."

"While this passage could be literal, it may just be figurative of the fact that the manna was divinely, and not naturally produced." ]


My reply:

[the short answer = ] "If angels are 'non-corporeal beings', why then do they need to eat?"


[the full answer = ] Facts first:

1Cr 15:40 [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another.

1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1Cr 15:40 is not speaking of sun, stars etc, as sometimes alleged. The next verse addresses those, look up the Greek (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1045326564-4549.html#40) to verify vs. 40.



Grace be unto you Kenneth, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ,

Psa 78:25 [i]could be figurative, but would it then agree with the prior verse?

Could the reference to the noun, *corn, in Psa 78:24 be explained figuratively?

________________

Psa 78:24 And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the *corn of heaven.


*corn = (Strong's 01715)

Hebrew for 01715
Pronunciation Guide dagan {daw-gawn'}

TWOT Reference
Root Word
TWOT - 403a
from 01711

Part of Speech
n m

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) wheat, cereal, grain, corn

________________

Psa 78:25 Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full.


E.W. Bullinger (1837-1913) writes of "angels' food" in 'The Companion Bible (http://www.pilkingtonandsons.com/BullingerBooks.htm)': "angels food = bread of the mighty ones. Sept., Syr., Arab., Ethiopic, with Targums, render it "bread of angels".

_________________

Possibly of interest regarding "manna", notice first the literal depiction in the O/T, then it's spiritual description in the N/T:

Jhn 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
Jhn 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
Jhn 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Jhn 6:48 I am that bread of life.
Jhn 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
Jhn 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die


I understand your comment & welcome your opinion.

Thanks for the input.



I also believe in letting those who read decide for themselves.
_______________________________________________
Genesis - Chapter 6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gen/Gen006.html#top)

Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown.
___________________________________________

The Book of Enoch - Chapter 7 (http://www.reluctant-messenger.com/1enoch01-60.htm#Chapter07)_

1It happened after the sons of men had multiplied in those days, that daughters were born to them, elegant and beautiful.

2And when the angels, (3) the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamoured of them, saying to each other, Come, let us select for ourselves wives from the progeny of men, and let us beget children.

(3) An Aramaic text reads "Watchers" here (J.T. Milik, Aramaic Fragments of Qumran Cave 4 [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1976], p. 167).

10Then they took wives, each choosing for himself; whom they began to approach, and with whom they cohabited; teaching them sorcery, incantations, and the dividing of roots and trees.

11And the women conceiving brought forth giants, (7)"


[Edit to 'jitsu guy's' post below....]

Thank you Sensi! ~bows~


"[i]Sometimes subjects in the Bible are so simple, we need help to misunderstand them."

:D Amen!

[JitsuGuy]

Good answer just_jim.

I think many people are making this too complex. The Bible clearly states that the angels which fell with Lucifer begat children with human women. HOW they did it really isn't a significant issue, whether they morphed into humans themselves or stayed in their original form.

What happens when you flip a light switch? Well, if the electricity is on and the bulb is good the light turns on or off... But how? Well, we could delve into open circuits and closed circuits, but that doesn't change the fact that the light still comes on or goes off.

I dunno, just a thought.

Sometimes subjects in the Bible are so simple, we need help to misunderstand them.

Jits

[theTruth]

The bible does not clearly state that angels had sex with women.

The linguists and theologians have no clear understanding as to what the phrase "sons of god" means in Gen 6.

And to think that a spirit being came down and mated with a human is unbiblical to begin with.

Hebrews 1:14
Are they <1526> (5748) not <3780> all <3956> ministering <3010> spirits, <4151> sent forth <649> (5746) to <1519> minister <1248> for <1223> them who shall <3195> (5723) be heirs of <2816> (5721) salvation? <4991>

pneu=ma from (4154)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Pneuma pnyoo'-mah
Parts of Speech TDNT
Noun Neuter 6:332,876
Definition
the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the \Holy\ Spirit)
sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of \Truth\)
never referred to as a depersonalised force
the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
the soul
a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
a life giving spirit
a human soul that has left the body
a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
a movement of air (a gentle blast)
of the wind, hence the wind itself
breath of nostrils or mouth

Pneuma is spirit and the same word used here:

Luke 24:39
Behold <1492> (5628) my <3450> hands <5495> and <2532> my <3450> feet, <4228> that <3754> it is <1510> (5748) I <1473> myself: <846> handle <5584> (5657) me, <3165> and <2532> see <1492> (5628); for <3754> a spirit <4151> hath <2192> (5719) not <3756> flesh <4561> and <2532> bones, <3747> as <2531> ye see <2334> (5719) me <1691> have <2192> (5723).

And note the definition of the Living Creatures, they are flesh and blood living beings. The term flesh and blood is NEVER applied to an angel anywhere in the bible.

Revelation 5:11
Then <2532> I looked <3708>, and I heard <191> the voice <5456> of many <4183> angels <32> around <2945> the throne <2362> and the living <2226> creatures <2226> and the elders <4245>; and the number <706> of them was myriads <3461> of myriads <3461>, and thousands <5505> of thousands <5505>

Strong's Number: 2226 zwÜøon
Original Word Word Origin
zwÜøon of a derivative of (2198)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Zoon dzo'-on
Parts of Speech TDNT
Noun Neuter 2:873,290
Definition
a living being
an animal, brute, beast

And even if they did have flesh they could not produce children by human women. In Genesis 1 God created all things to produce their own kind. And can ONLY procreate with their own kind.

Those are the biblical concepts we are given.

Jesus explained it very clearly that flesh begets flesh. Genetics is genetics. Sexual angels is a foolish concept to start with. Sex is for reproduction to replace that which dies off. Angels don't die. They are not a race, they are a company. Races reproduce, companies do not.

So no this is not a good answer. Its unbiblical and not well thought out.

[just_jim]

Originally posted by theTruth
The bible does not clearly state that angels had sex with women.

The linguists and theologians have no clear understanding as to what the phrase "sons of god" means in Gen 6.

As both, I disagree.

Instead of reinventing the wheel, I will let a mentor, E.W.Bullinger (http://www.angelfire.com/nv/TheOliveBranch/append23.html) explain the phrase "sons of [G]od"...


*And even if they did have flesh they could not produce children by human women. In Genesis 1 God created all things to produce their own kind. And can ONLY procreate with their own kind. I see... well, first I would point out that the fallen angels were not on earth at the point you mention, except satan.


Secondly, how do you breed a mule? (http://www.ruralheritage.com/mule_paddock/mule_whatis.htm) ...is it 'kind after kind'?



With all verse aside, by applying your very own *theory from above, that 'kind must beget kind' , ...where then did the Giants (http://www.reluctant-messenger.com/1enoch01-60.htm#Chapter15) come from?

Who begot them? (http://www.reluctant-messenger.com/1enoch01-60.htm#Chapter15)





________________________________

Again, I bow to my Sensi...

"Sometimes subjects in the Bible are so simple, we need help to misunderstand them."

...ain't that the Truth! :O

[JitsuGuy]

just_jim has caught the correct.

[just_jim]

Originally posted by JitsuGuy
just_jim has caught the correct. Thank You Sensi.




Edit:

In this post while trying to round-up the thread, I mentioned 'rapture', I now realize this is not the 'rapture discussion' room. I am going to repost this elsewhere w/ link.

Sorry for the inconvenience.



Live long and prosper.

[theTruth]

It never ceases to amaze me how people get to the point in there belief systems that they have to resort to things such as angelic beings having sex, and flying fire breathing dragons and so on and so forth.

What mockery you all make of God and Christianity in general.

[just_jim]

Originally posted by theTruth
It never ceases to amaze me how people get to the point in there belief systems that they have to resort to things such as angelic beings having sex, and flying fire breathing dragons and so on and so forth.

What mockery you all make of God and Christianity in general.

Anger is the typical knee-jerk reaction usually displayed by those with lot's of theories but very little actual substance.

One type of individual is able to admit their error & learns from it, another type individual gets mad and rants like a little child when openly proved incorrect.


We all have opinions. My opinion is that you have your head in a place that prevents you from seeing what is actually written. While I resent your groundless attack, it is not unexpected. Your free to be as ignorant, Biblically & otherwise, as you need be.

Do your words of condemnation make you the better Christian in your eyes?




I didn't expect you to be able to answer my one simple question, even using your very own premise too! Remarkable!

Do you know why you cannot answer it, because your wrong.

You're a perfect example of someone who cannot back up his theory, yet is too proud to admit it. Pride is a dangerous thing, so is a little bit of knowledge.



I know you need the last word, as you seem a 'last-word' type, imo, so enjoy it.

Here's mine, ...perhaps you should consider a more appropriate nick-name.

[theTruth]

Your just full of assumptions now arent you?

And your reaction was right on cue. Typical.

Step on their toes and their flawed doctrine and they get all bent out of shape and assume things. Nice Christian attitude there Jim.

And I posted why your biblical concept is wrong.

Your non-answer spoke for itself.

And your attitude and assumptions speak even louder volumes.

Sons of God means those in covenant relationship with God. Men who were of God married women who were not.

Your reading skills need work. It does not say the giants were their babies.
It says at the time the marriages took place there were giant men.

[mrshoward]

TheTruth, I'm not going to argue with yo about fallen angels having sex with humans---there was a HUGE thread going about the Nephilim awhile back. I have no idea what the truth of those verses is. However, you say that "Sons of God means those in covenant relationship with God. Men who were of God married women who were not. "

Doesn't the first chapter of Job talk about the Sons of God presenting themselves before God in Heaven, and Satan was one of them? I don't think this was talking about humans, but about angels.

Just my two cents.

What do you think?

[just_jim]

Originally posted by mrshoward
TheTruth, I'm not going to argue with yo about fallen angels having sex with humans---there was a HUGE thread going about the Nephilim awhile back. I have no idea what the truth of those verses is. However, you say that "Sons of God means those in covenant relationship with God. Men who were of God married women who were not. "

Doesn't the first chapter of Job talk about the Sons of God presenting themselves before God in Heaven, and Satan was one of them? I don't think this was talking about humans, but about angels.

Just my two cents.

What do you think?

mrshoward, this individual does not think. Beyond promoting his dogma, he has no real intentions of learning anything, in my opinion. I suspect you waste your pearls of wisdom.

This is illustrated plainly above by his inability to answer one simple question, even though it's based on his own exact premise! :lol

Pride injured, he must fight! A Christian virtue? No, just the earthly mind in it's full glory!

Here is what the good bredren called "Truth" has to say to others who dare disagree w/ him:
Originally posted by theTruth
"Check the Interlinear (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=750975#post750975), oh ye of great knowledge.

Can you do that?

Do you even know what an Interlinear bible is?

Here I will help you...."

Here's more, see how his rant from another thread is used here, tho completely unrelated:

Originally posted by theTruth
You do more harm than good, by having non-believers see your rantings and ramblings about how God makes dragons, that breath fire, and us having to poke our eyes out, and other extreme fundamental rubbish. As well as believing in known hoaxes.

Rom you have reduced Christianity to an absurdity with what YOU believe personally. And you are so blind to it you dont even see it.

A bit condescending there, eh "Truth"?


Most sincerely humble, intelligent students of the Bible realize that when asked a question to which they do not have an answer, they just might be about to learn something, but not the know-it-all type, of which I believe it is fair to assume my new? friend is, judging both by his words & his very presumptuous nick-name, "TheTruth".

"TheTruth" ....Sure :roll.



Well.... one more chance... your game ...your court ...and your rules:

Let's see what question "TheTruth" is unable to answer once again!
____________________________________________________

Originally posted by theTruth
The bible does not clearly state that angels had sex with women.

The linguists and theologians have no clear understanding as to what the phrase "sons of god" means in Gen 6.

As both, I disagree.

Instead of reinventing the wheel, I will let a mentor, E.W.Bullinger (http://www.angelfire.com/nv/TheOliveBranch/append23.html) explain the phrase "sons of [G]od"...


Originally posted by theTruth
And even if they did have flesh they could not produce children by human women. In Genesis 1 God created all things to produce their own kind. And can ONLY procreate with their own kind. I see... well, first I would point out that the fallen angels were not on earth at the point you mention, except satan.


Secondly, how do you breed a mule? (http://www.ruralheritage.com/mule_paddock/mule_whatis.htm) ...is it 'kind after kind'?


With all verse aside, by applying your very own *theory from above, that 'kind must beget kind'...

...where then did the Giants (http://www.reluctant-messenger.com/1enoch01-60.htm#Chapter15) come from?

Who begot them? (http://www.reluctant-messenger.com/1enoch01-60.htm#Chapter15)



I'll put it in even simpler terms, so you cannot feign misunderstanding:

Again applying your very own *theory from above, that 'kind must beget kind'...

Where did the Giants come from?

[theTruth]

And youll notice Jim never addressed the key points of my post. He just conviently overlooked them.

Not going to work Jim I dont play that game.

And youre showing yourself by taking things out of context from what I said in one thread (that had nothing to do with you by the way), and posting them to skirt the issue at hand.

You are dodging and playing silly games.

Here are some more questions I will pose, and please answer, anyone that believes angelic beings had sex with human women:

Why would God only create male angels? And if female angels existed they surely would be more beautiful and desirable than human woman?

And there would be angel children, thus a race.

And if a race those produced by fallen angels together would either be doomed to Hell by their parents sin or they would need a savior.

But Christ died for Man as Man. Who would pay the sin price for angels?

And where would they live their lives to choose God or reject him?

I expect answers from someone who is an admitted Christian scholar of theology, and linguistics as you claim to be Jim.

[theTruth]

Originally posted by mrshoward
I have no idea what the truth of those verses is.

Its complex, and there is no clear defined meaning. The meaning is determined within the context of where its stated in the verse.
So you are not alone, its difficult.

However, you say that "Sons of God means those in covenant relationship with God. Men who were of God married women who were not.
Doesn't the first chapter of Job talk about the Sons of God presenting themselves before God in Heaven, and Satan was one of them? I don't think this was talking about humans, but about angels.

NKJV Job 1
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan[2] also came among them. 7And the LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?"
So Satan answered the LORD and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it."

NIV Job 1
6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD , and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"
Satan answered the LORD , "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."

Sons of God in this context means angels. Satan of course is an angel.
But Satan at this time was no longer in relationship with God for obvious reasons.
Also read closely. It does not say Satan was one of them. It says Satan came with them.

[just_jim]

Originally posted by theTruth
And youll notice Jim never addressed the key points of my post. He just conviently overlooked them.
So then, ...the winner is who can answer fewer questions? Great logic! (...and not surprising)

Not going to work Jim I dont play that game.
You have no game, only opinion-presented-as-fact to stuff down throats.

And youre showing yourself by taking things out of context from what I said in one thread (that had nothing to do with you by the way), and posting them to skirt the issue at hand.
I posted them to show your cruel pattern in your interactions with those who dare disagree with you, or with whom you disagree with.

You are dodging and playing silly games.
If this were true, I assure you I would win the "game".

In fact, I do not care who agrees/disagrees with my opinions, I no longer have the need to be "right" at all costs, though I do understand where this need springs from. I now follow scriptural instruction not to argue with your kind.

Here are some more questions I will pose, and please answer, anyone that believes angelic beings had sex with human women:

Why would God only create male angels?

And if female angels existed they surely would be more beautiful and desirable than human woman? I'm not interested in your personal taste in women Sir, or lack thereof.

And there would be angel children, thus a race.

And if a race those produced by fallen angels together would either be doomed to Hell by their parents sin or they would need a savior.

But Christ died for Man as Man. Who would pay the sin price for angels?

And where would they live their lives to choose God or reject him?

I expect answers from someone who is an admitted Christian scholar of theology, and linguistics as you claim to be Jim. [/B]

First, I could care less what you 'expect'.


Next, I will stand on verse which is already laid-out above in this thread. Your very questions show that you have not read this entire thread, as most of your 'deep' questions have already been answered by verse and some even explored in detail in this thread. If you had read, you would at least understand the precepts upon which I form my opinion (...or maybe not).

This will be verifiable by anyone caring enough to read the thread. Read above if you are truly interested in answers to your questions, which we both know you are not.

[Anyone actually interested in the answers to this persons repetitive questions, please see above, or click here (http://www.reluctant-messenger.com/1enoch01-60.htm#Chapter07) and see chpts. 7-16, for times sake]

Beyond that Sir, (& I call you Sir only because I will not call you "theTruth", as I have far too much respect for actual truth), your choosing to accept or deny any/all scripture is to your accountability, not mine.

Also, being there were no "female angels" is, imho, why the female humans would seem so enticing to the male angels, not to the contrary, as you imply. You apparently seem not comprehend this.

Last, you still believe you can beat people into submission by your dictatorial, verbose speaking. I once thought I had all the answers too, like you now do. Long ago I even used the same exact egotistical nick-name you now use. I finally learned I had no answers at all. This is when ignorance and arrogance began to submit to compassion and humility, and only then could true understanding even begin.

In my opinion, one's heart demonstrates the fruit of that individual. Often we need not do a thing but let one continue to show themselves for what he/she truly is.



Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Eph 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

[just_jim]

Oh, and by the way, you have contradicted yourself in your position regarding "the sons of God".

Originally posted by theTruth

The linguists and theologians have no clear understanding as to what the phrase "sons of God" means in Gen 6.

Then you say:

Originally posted by theTruth

Sons of God in this context means angels.

The fact is both renderings are identical.

Job 1:6, ben 'elohiym (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1046107833-4176.html#6)

Gen 6:1, ben 'elohiym (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1046107770-5070.html#2)

[theTruth]

Originally posted by just_jim
Oh, and by the way, you have contradicted yourself in your position regarding "the sons of God".

[/i]

Then you say:

[/i]

The fact is both renderings are identical.

Job 1:6, ben 'elohiym (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1046107833-4176.html#6)

Gen 6:1, ben 'elohiym (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1046107770-5070.html#2)

The context is clear that angels are being spoken about in Job. That is why it is translated as angels.

In Gen 6:1 the context is man, not angels. And the footnote clearly states that the Hebrew meaning for that word, is unknown. That is why we rely on context to get a proper meaning.

And I wont argue with you about your opinion. Youre free to believe anything you want. But when your claims are shown to be wrong, then probably best to reconsider them. But that's up to you.

[theTruth]

So then, ...the winner is who can answer fewer questions? Great logic! (...and not surprising)

There are no winners.

In a debate we present evidence as to what we believe and why.

I picked apart your evidence. That's not my fault, thats the flaw in your evidence. Dont take it personally.


I posted them to show your cruel pattern in your interactions with those who dare disagree with you, or with whom you disagree with.

In heated debates, as humans do we often show emotions. Part of the debate is stand up for what you believe. Strong debate should have emotion. Sometimes we get carried away.

If this were true, I assure you I would win the "game".

In fact, I do not care who agrees/disagrees with my opinions, I no longer have the need to be "right" at all costs, though I do understand where this need springs from. I now follow scriptural instruction not to argue with your kind.

You presented your ideas and opinions that some others support as evidence.

Opinions arent proof.

I showed that the meaning of "sons of God" is unknown.
I showed that context is where we get the meaning of the term "sons of God" where the term "sons fo God" is used in scripture.

Those are facts.

[Anyone actually interested in the answers to this persons repetitive questions, please see above, or click here (http://www.reluctant-messenger.com/1enoch01-60.htm#Chapter07) and see chpts. 7-16, for times sake]

What you present is not biblical.

The Book of Enoch is not part of the bible. So right away this should be highly questionable and throws up major flags.

Also on this site there is a myriad of Eastern Philosophy concepts and other non-Christian texts. Another clue that this theory is on shakey ground.

They also believe in evolution:

quote:
By combining the evidence of the Big Bang with the evidence of Quantum Reality we can trust the evidence of the fossil record to mean what is shows us plain and simple. Life evolved on this planet, as improbable as it may seem.

Sorry life did not evolve. That is also unbiblical.
God made kinds, not ooze.

Also, being there were no "female angels" is, imho, why the female humans would seem so enticing to the male angels, not to the contrary, as you imply. You apparently seem not comprehend this.

He created them neither male nor female.
So why did He give them sexual drives and sexual organs?

God created angels in an eternal sexual frustration?
Why would He do that?
How cruel.

Long ago I even used the same exact egotistical nick-name you now use.

More assumptions about me.
My nickname has nothing to do with me.

theTruth refers to that which is in Him alone.
That is my persuit. The Truth.

In my opinion, one's heart demonstrates the fruit of that individual. Often we need not do a thing but let one continue to show themselves for what he/she truly is.

Then its probably best not to get into debates, because emotions will get heated and you will be seen as unfruitful.

Im sure John the Baptist was labeled alot of things for his strong convictions and attitude. Im not comparing myself to John because Id fall short, but attitide has nothing to do with fruitfullness. He was not tolerant, and for that matter neither was Jesus.

Both told it like it was. And if you didnt like it, so be it.

Emotions are going to fly when people start interacting and talking about beliefs. Thats life.

If you dont want to debate this thats fine. I have no problem. We can agree to disagree.

If you wish to believe in this thats your call. I believe I have shown that your beliefs are on shakey ground, but if you wish to continue to believe them, again thats on you.

[bigbill52a]

The book of Enoch from which Jesus, Peter, and Jude quoted passages gives the origins of the Nephilim, the spawn created by the intermarriage of Fallen Angels and human woman. It was an attempt by Satan to corrupt the seed of woman and prevent the birth of the Messiah, our kinsman Redeemer, Jesus. Several attempts were made before the flood and also after the flood. Goliath was one of the giants that was begotten after the flood from these intermarriages. Several groups of phillistines were marked by God for complete destruction, man, woman, and child, even the animals. It was not that they were particularly more evil than their neighbors, but that they were ruled by and their genetics contaminated by Fallen angels. These hybrids were the men of reknown, the gods of the Greeks, and other ancient peoples. Hybrids are confined to this world and do not rise from the dead. When they die, their flesh returns to the earth and their souls are confined to the earth. These are the Demons. The existence of demons explain many of the paranormal experiences that people have. If a person is possessed by a demon and that person dies, he goes immediately to the judgement, but the demon who shared that person memories returns to his confinement on the earth. If that demon posseses another person, he still will have the memories of the first person. Such serial possessions could be the basis for the false doctrine of reincarnation. The use of hypnotism to bring up memories from past lifes may actually open the door to demon possession and since that demon has memories of other hosts, he can perform to the delight of the hypnotist, recounting the memories of other hosts, who he has possessed over the ages.

Fallen Angels and human woman = Nephilim or hybrids. Since they are not fully human, they can not repent or be saved. (This is very sad and has brought down the wrath of God many times in human history). When a hybrid dies, his flesh returns to the earth and his soul is confined to the earth. He has become a demon.

Pure speculation:
As it was in the days of Noe...
Such tampering with human genetics may also be occuring now.
Cloning...
and also
Alien abductions...
Many alien abductions have been aborted by calling on the Lord Jesus. Such response would not have occured, if these creatures were actually from another planet.
Conclusion:
Spiritual warfare, rather than actual physical beings from another planet.

I hope that I have shed some light on this controversial subject...
Do a search on Google for Fallen Angels...and find out many interesting things...

[theTruth]

I don't deny the existance of demons.

We disagree on what they are. It is illogical to believe they are angelic in origin. Its not biblical and goes against all God established for a race and a company.

Compaines do not reproduce. No need to because they cannot die. Angels are a company of beings. Neither male nor female.

Humans reproduce. We are a race of beings. We reproduce to replenish that which dies off. We were made male and female.

[Mikester1]

I just want to say thanks Just_Jim - I follow what you are saying and I must say it is something to ponder. Don't let the nay sayings get ya down!

God bless,

[Arkycharlie]

thetruth says
I don't deny the existance of demons.
charlie says, "a wise statement."

thetruth says
We disagree on what they are. It is illogical to believe they are angelic in origin. Its not biblical and goes against all God established for a race and a company.
charlie quite naturally says, "so what are they?"

thetruth, a little bit of unsolicited advice from one considerably older and possibly just a bit wiser. Don't be so quick to disagree with theories about things only hinted at in Scripture that more learned (and probably much more Godly) men than you or I have seriously posited in the past. The truth is, the canon of Scripture that we call the Bible simply does not clearly explain the origin of demons. You say, "It is illogical to believe they are angelic in origin." I say, I will be most interested to see what you believe they logically must be!

charlie

[Becky]

theTruth, we attack the argument, not the person on this board. Your attitude needs to be toned WAY down.

Consider this Warning #1.

And my own opine on the subject, I agree with you. But you need to not resort to name calling and insults.

[bigbill52a]

I have read some accounts where modern humans have claimed that they were hybrids of humans and aliens, the so-called Star Children. Hopefully, for their sake, it is only a delusion, for fallen angels are the only aliens that exist, and the fate of these Star Children would be no better than those who proceeded them.

[Arkycharlie]

Becky, greetings from a native Texan living in Arkansas. I was reared in Ft. Worth. How about you??

Anyway, I think your bluster must have scared "thetruth" off. Shucks, I was really wanting to get his take on the origin of demons. You know, thetruth about demons...........:lol

Just out of curiousity, what part of thetruth's views were you in agreement with???

charlie

p.s.
thetruth, even though I'm sure that you're rather chagrined at the moment,
you're still welcome to come back and finish this train of thought :ex

[RNG]

The thing is alot of people now are thinking that Jehova was in fact an alien instead of God, in other words an alien whom the hebrews thought to be God. thats my only problem, i 've seen pictures of jesus in the clouds with flying saucers around him lol so you actually think that christ & the angels will return in flying saucers?? ridiculous !!

[theTruth]

Im not chagrined.
I have no problem playing by the rules, its their board, not mine.

If anyone was personally insulted, then forgive me. That was not the intention.

But I believe demons are the remaining souls left over from the pre-adamic rebellion.

The pre-adamics were perfect physical beings, flesh and blood. They were a company not a race of beings. Therefore they require no reedemer, just as angels require no redeemer. They were perfect flesh.

Their representatives are the Four Living Creatures that stand before the throne of God. They are flesh and blood. The are the perfect flesh representatives that stand before the throne.

They lived on the perfect earth, before it was laid waste.

Angels are perfect spirit beings.
The pre-adamics were perfect flesh beings.
We are the perfect race of beings.

See the whole picture?

[Arkycharlie]

OK, thetruth, I'll bite. Where would I read about the pre-adamics and get, "the whole picture"??

[theTruth]

There is no specific mention of them within the scripture.

You wont find the word pre-adamite, or pre-fall anywhere.
It shown to us bit by bit.

Origins and Pre-Adamic Creation

Supporting Argumentation

When people crack open the Bible, the most common assumption accepted by Christians is that all matter and energy came into existence with the six days in chapter one of Genesis, thus meaning the earth is merely thousands of years old.

The statement itself is flawed. The Bible does not state the Earth is thousands of years old. This statement comes from the assumption that the six days of creation begin at Genesis 1:1.

This is incorrect. They begin at Genesis 1:3.

Genesis 1:1 says, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

. ur)h te)w eymh te) eyhl) )rB ty$)erB

)rb = Bara' {baw-raw'}

Strong's Number: 01254; TWOT – 278; verb

1. to create, shape, form
a. (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
1. of heaven and earth
2. of individual man
3. of new conditions and circumstances
4. of transformations
b. (Niphal) to be created
1. of heaven and earth
2. of birth
3. of something new
4. of miracles
c. (Piel)
1. to cut down
2. to cut out
2. to be fat
a. (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

The Hebrew word, bara, in Genesis 1:1, indicates that what was created was "ex-nihilo" - out of nothing. One should not confuse bara (“he created”) with its synonym `asah (“he made”). In the nothingness, there was only God.

For examples of “made,” consider Exodus 20:11 and Exodus 31:17.

Exodus 20:11: “For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day.”

Ur)h eymh hwhy h&( eymy yK aeK-1( y(ybh ewYB xnYw eB-r$)-1K-t)w eYh-t) . Whe$Dqyw tBh ewy-t) hwhy jreB

Made = h#( = `asah = {aw-saw'}

Strong's Number: 06213; TWOT: 1708,1709; verb

1. to do, fashion, accomplish, make
a. (Qal)
1. to do, work, make, produce 1a
b. to do 1a
c. to work 1a
d. to deal (with) 1a
e. to act, act with effect, effect
1. to make 1a
f. to make 1a
g. to produce 1a
h. to prepare 1a
i. to make (an offering) 1a
j. to attend to, put in order 1a
k. to observe, celebrate 1a
l. to acquire (property) 1a
m. to appoint, ordain, institute 1a
n. to bring about 1a
o. to use 1a
p. to spend, pass
q. (Niphal)
1. to be done
2. to be made
3. to be produced
4. to be offered
5. to be observed
6. to be used
r. (Pual) to be made
2. (Piel) to press, squeeze

Therefore, there is a fundamental difference between God creating, forming, and shaping the heavens and the earth [Bara' in Genesis 1:1] compared to God making, fashioning, and working the heavens and the earth [`asah in Exodus 20:11 and Exodus 31:17].

For the definition of these words “made” and “create,” I will turn to the Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth Edition.

"Made: (1): (a): FICTITIOUS, INVENTED (b): artificially produced (c): put together of various ingredients (2): assured of success"

"1Create: (1): to bring into existence <God created the heaven and the earth--Genesis 1:1 (AV)> (2): (a): to invest with a new form, office, or rank (b): to produce or bring about by a course of action or behavior (3): CAUSE, OCCATION (4): (a): to produce through imaginative skill (b): DESIGN ~ vi: to make or bring into existence something new"

Again, notice the key difference between (made) "put together of various ingredients" verses (create) "to bring into existence." The term "made" used in the context of "create" is inaccurate, by definition.

Genesis 1:1-2 says: " Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."

(8764) ewht yenP (8804)-l( j$xw Whbw Wht htyh ur)hw . eyMh yenP tpxrm eyhl) xWrw

Was = hyh = Hayah {haw-yaw}

Strong's Number: 01961; TWOT 491; verb

to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out
1. (Qal)
a. to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass
b. to come about, come to pass
c. to come into being, become
d. to arise, appear, come
e. to become
f. to become
g. to become like
h. to be instituted, be established
i. to be
j. to exist, be in existence
k. to abide, remain, continue (with word of place or time)
l. to stand, lie, be in, be at, be situated (with word of locality)
m. to accompany, be with
2. (Niphal)
a. to occur, come to pass, be done, be brought about
b. to be done, be finished, be gone

Without form = wht = Tohuw {to'-hoo}

Strong's Number: 08414; TWOT: 2494a; Noun Masculine

1. formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness
a. formlessness (of primeval earth)
1. nothingness, empty space
b. that which is empty or unreal (of idols) (fig)
c. wasteland, wilderness (of solitary places)
d. place of chaos
e. vanity

Void = whb = Bohuw {bo'-hoo}

Strong's Number: 0922; TWOT: 205a; Noun Masculine

1. emptiness, void, waste

Deep = ewht = T@howm {teh-home'}

Strong's Number: 08415; from 01949; TWOT: 2495a; Noun

1. deep, depths, deep places, abyss, the deep, sea
a. deep (of subterranean waters)
b. deep, sea, abysses (of sea)
c. primeval ocean, deep
d. deep, depth (of river)
e. abyss, the grave

God created the earth to be inhabited.

In Isaiah 45:18, it says:

"For this is what the LORD says--
he who created the heavens,
he is God;
he who fashioned and made the earth,
he founded it;
he did not create it to be empty,
but formed it to be inhabited--"

But, in Genesis 1:2, the earth was empty. Further, an empty, chaotic [Tohuw] wasteland [Bohuw] in water [T@howm] is not conditions a human civilization can live in.

God’s works are perfect.

Consider Deuteronomy 32:4, where it says of God:

"He is the Rock, his works are perfect,
and all his ways are just."

Therefore, God would have created a perfect earth in Genesis 1:1.

But, in Genesis 1:2, the earth was an empty, chaotic [Tohuw] wasteland [Bohuw] in water [T@howm]. This is not perfection, but the opposite.

Further, God is omnipotent—meaning he can do exactly what he wants without limitation. Therefore, God does not need to create a formless and void earth and then mold it from there, which would imply God has limits and gets tired. Clear academic logic says he can create a perfect earth and perfect universe in one, definitive act.

In addition, Scripture shows that creation was one, definitive act:

Psalm 33
6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made,
their starry host by the breath of his mouth.
9 For he spoke, and it came to be;
he commanded, and it stood firm.

Also, God would have created any inhabitants [company, not race] perfect [perfect physical beings] as well.

God would have no reason to create darkness in his original creation, for there is no darkness in him.

In 1 John 1:5, John says, "This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all."

Further, God himself emits light. And since he would have no reason to create darkness in his original creation [1 John 1:5], he would have let it shine on his creation.

In Revelation 22:5, of the New Jerusalem it says, "There will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light."

Thus, God’s own light would have illuminated his creation.

[theTruth]

Next, look at Job 38:6, where God asks Job about creation of earth to make a point:

"On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone--
while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?"

Clearly, this speaks of angels singing while the creation was completed.

When Lucifer ("light bringer") was created, he was the most powerful guardian cherub who guarded God's thrown. However, he became power hungry and wanted to rule heaven himself.

In Ezekiel 28:12-17, when God is giving prophesies against the King of Tyre, God uses Lucifer as an example, saying:

12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:

You were a model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace
from the mount of God,
And I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor;” [SEE EZEKIEL ENDNOTE]

[Note: These verses are clearly not speaking of the king of Tyre because:

1) He was not perfect [verse 12], but only human.
2) He was not in the Garden of Eden [verse 13].
3) He is not a cherub [verse 14].
4) He did not walk the mount of God [verse 14].
5) He did not walk the mount of God, so he could not be driven from it [verse 16].]

- - - - -

Ezekiel 28:14:
“You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.”

Eyhl) $dq rhB jyTtnW jekwSh x$mm bWrk . TkLhth $e) jwtB tyyh

Guardian = jks = Cakak {saw-kak'}

Strong's Number: 05526; TWOT: 1475,1492,2259,2260; v.

1. (Qal) to hedge, fence about, shut in
2. to block, overshadow, screen, stop the approach, shut off, cover
a. (Qal)
1. to screen, cover
2. to cover oneself
3. protector (participle)
b. (Hiphil)
1.to screen, cover
2. to cover, defecate (euphemism)
3. (Qal) to cover, lay over
4. to weave together
a. (Qal) to weave together
b. (Pilpel) to weave, weave together

Given the applicable definition [#2a], Lucifer must have had unusually large and specialized wings in which to shield God with. Further, in order to cover God in protection, he would have had to hover about the thrown where God sits.

- - - - -

Lucifer wanted to be higher than God.

Examine Isaiah 14:12-15, where God related the king of Babylon to Lucifer and his fall while talking to Isaiah,

12 "How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

13 You said in your heart,
'I will ascend into heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.'
15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit."

[Note the significance of the "morning star(s)" is clearly that of angels created in the original creation, as referred to in Job 38:6.]
[Note 2: These verses cannot refer to the king of Babylon because the king did not ascend from the earth in order to be cast down [verse 12].]

- - - - -
Isaiah 14:12:

"How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!”

T(Dgn rx$ lelyeh eymm Tlpn jye) . eywG-l $elwx ur)1

Morning star = llyh = Heylel {hay-lale'}

Strong's Number: 01966; from 01984 (in the sense of brightness); TWOT: 499a; Noun Masculine

Lucifer = "light-bearer"
1. shining one, morning star, Lucifer
a. of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.)
2. 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon

- - - - -

Then Lucifer led one third of the angels in Heaven in his rebellion.

Consider Revelation 12:3-4, where it says, "Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and seven horns and seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth." [SEE REVELATION ENDNOTE]

Given the verse of Job 38:6, with the "stars" singing together, and Satan as the "dragon," and the flinging of stars to the earth by the "dragon's tail" (Satan’s act), it is clear that a third of the angels followed Satan and where cast down with him.

Revelation 12:7 states, "And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.” [SEE REVELATION ENDNOTE]

Lucifer (Satan) was defeated and cast down.

Revelation 12:8-9 continues, “But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him." [SEE REVELATION ENDNOTE]

In Luke 10:18, Jesus, the Son of God himself said, "I saw Satan fall like lightening from heaven."

In Isaiah 14:12, God said:
"How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

[Note the significance of the "morning star(s)" is clearly that of angels created in the original creation, as referred to in Job 38:6.]

[Note 2: A key observation in Isaiah 14:12 is that Lucifer "laid low" the nations. For the context and meaning of laid low, consider the following the following verses:

Isaiah 25:12, where Isaiah says:

“He will bring down your high fortified walls
and lay them low;
he will bring them down to the ground,
to the very dust.”

Job 14:10, where Job says:

“But man dies and is laid low;
he breathes his last and is no more.”

And Psalm119:25, where Daleth sings:

“I am laid low in the dust;
renew my life according to your word.”

Clearly, by these verses, the definition and context of laid low is usually destroying, defeating, putting down, etc. Thus, Lucifer, who once defeated, destroyed, put down, etc. nations was himself put down and humiliated before the nations and kings that knew who he was and what he did.]

In Ezekiel 28:17-19, God continues:
17 “So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
18 By your many sins and
dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made fire come out of you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes
on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
You have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.” [SEE EZEKIEL ENDNOTE]

[Note: In conjunction with the content of Ezekiel 28:12-17 pointed out, these verses cannot refer to the king of Tyre because:

1) He never ascended from the earth, so he could not be thrown down [verse 17].
2) God never set the person of the king of Tyre on fire [past tense] [verse 18].]

Notice the reference to “nations” and “all who were watching.” This is a clear illusion to the perfect physical beings that inhabited the earth. Further, the fallen Lucifer was humiliated before them.

As Lucifer and his followers were cast down, God, out of great anger, followed them and directed great wrath towards them and the perfect beings on earth that rebelled as well.

[theTruth]

Next, consider Psalm 18:7-15, where it says:

7 "The earth trembled and quaked,
and the foundations of the mountains shook;
they trembled because he was angry
8 Smoke rose from his nostrils;
consuming fire came from his mouth,
burning coals blazed out of it.
9 He parted the heavens and came down;
dark clouds were under his feet.
10 He mounted the cherubim and flew;
he soared on the wings of the wind.
11 He made darkness his covering, his canopy around him--
The dark rain clouds in the sky.
12 Out of the brightness of his presence clouds advanced,
with hailstones and bolts of lightening.
13 The LORD thundered from heaven;
the voice of the Most High resounded.
14 He shot his arrows and scattered the enemies,
great bolts of lightening and routed them.
15 The valleys of the sea were exposed
and the foundations of the earth laid bare
at your rebuke, O LORD,
at the blast of breath from your nostrils."

[Notes: Psalm Chapter 18 subject: David's persecution from Saul and others and the fact that God delivered him from the situation. The subject then is really God's judgment on the enemies which resulted in David's deliverance.

Verses 1-3 - His devotion and trust in the Lord
Verses 4-5 - David encounters a death crisis
Verse 6 - But he trusts in God for deliverance
Verses 16-19 - David records the Lord's deliverance from his enemies and from the death crisis.
But in verses 7-15 - we have a record of God's judgment in a different situation.

Here, the language changes totally. Here there is no mention of people. Here one must look beyond David's life to find the reference. Even if one were to symbolize the passage as a whole, it can find no correlation to David's deliverance.]

Notice God is attacking "enemies." If Lucifer and the angels that followed him were defeated and being cast down, then who was God directing his offensive wrath [“arrows and lightening”] towards? Logic says the perfect beings on earth rebelling against God.

Also, consider Job 26:11, where Job said:

"The pillars of the heavens quake,
aghast at his rebuke."

Also, consider Job 9:5, where Job said:

"He moves the mountains without their knowing it
and overturns them in his anger.
He shakes the earth from its place
and makes its pillars tremble."

After God came down from heaven and unleashed his wrath, he observed the devastation and hovered in the position that it is in on Genesis 1:2.

In Jeremiah 4:23-26, it says:

23 "I looked at the earth, and it was formless and empty;
and at the heavens, and their light was gone.
24 I looked at the mountains, and they were quaking;
all the hills were swaying.
25 I looked, and there were no people;
every bird in the sky had flown away.
26 I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert;
All its towns lay in ruins before the LORD,
before his fierce anger."

[Note the following:

1) The unique past tense phraseology "formless and empty" within the future tense phraseology in Jeremiah 4 is the key. This is a reference to a different time in the past that God had seen firsthand.

2) “All [the earth’s] towns lay in ruins” and “there were no people.” This indicates total destruction of civilization and total absence of physical beings. Further, “every bird in the sky had flown away,” indicating all birds had died, or been wiped out. Note that in no point in human history had all people or any animals had been wiped out by God.

Therefore, it could only apply to the "formless and empty" state in Genesis 1:2.]

After Lucifer and his angels were cast down [Revelation 12:8-9, In Luke 10:18, Ezekiel 28:17-19, Isaiah 14:12] and God’s wrath towards the earth [Psalm 18:7-15, Jeremiah 4:23, Job 9:5, Job 26:1] was finished, the earth was in the state described in Genesis 1:2 [Psalm 18:15]. One can logically deduce that the perfect physical beings who had rebelled against God were killed and their spirits roamed free [Psalm 18:14].

Because of the failed rebellion, Lucifer [Ezekiel 28:15-16] and the angels that followed him [Revelation 12:3-4] had brought sin down to the earth [Ezekiel 28:17, Revelation 12:9]. And the sight of sin disgusted God, so he clothed it in darkness to hide it from his view.

Consider Job 38:9, where God questions Job about the creation of earth to make a point:

“Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,”

Also, Psalms 8:3, where it says:

"When I consider your heavens,
the work of your fingers,
the moon and the stars,
which you have set in place,"

[Also remember that in Jeremiah 4:23 the heavens had “lost their light,” so the darkness was consuming creation. God then reformatted the darkness into the heavens above earth.]

During the recreation of earth, the angels that followed Lucifer were bound by chains and placed in a dark place when God recreated the earth beginning in Genesis 1:3.

Jude 1:6 states, "And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day."

In 2 Peter 2:4, the apostle Peter said, "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them into hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;"

After the Lucifer led rebellion, God had to do something with the perfect physical beings that fought for him. Ezekiel 1:4-28 and Revelation 4:6-9 speaks of unidentified “living creatures” working for God and in Heaven. These unidentified “living creatures” could be the perfect physical creatures that fought for God during the Pre-Adamic war.

[theTruth]

The Bible speaks of unidentified “creatures.”

Ezekiel 1:4-28 says, "I looked, and I saw a windstorm coming out of the north--an immense cloud with flashing lightning and surrounded by brilliant light. The center of the fire looked like glowing metal, and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was that of a man, but each of them had four faces and four wings. Their legs were straight; their feet were like those of a calf and gleamed like burnished bronze. Under their wings on their four sides were they had the hands of a man. All four of them had faces and wings, and their wings touched one another. Each one went straight ahead; they did not turn as they moved.

Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a man, and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle. Such were their faces. Their wings were spread out upward; each had two wings, one touching the wing of another creature on either side, and two wings covering its body. Each one went straight ahead. Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, without turning as they went. The appearance of the living creatures was like burning coals of fire or like torches. Fire moved back and forth among the creatures; it was bright, and lightening flashed on it. The creatures sped back and forth like flashes of lightening.

As I looked at the living creatures, I saw a wheel on the ground beside each creature with its four faces. This was the appearance and structure of the wheels: They sparkled like chrysolite, and all four looked alike. Each appeared to be made like a wheel intersecting a wheel. As they moved, they would go in any one of the four directions the creatures faced; the wheels did not turn about as the creatures went. Their rims were high and awesome, and all four rims were full of eyes all around.

When the living creatures moved, the wheels beside them moved; and when the living creatures rose from the ground, the wheels also rose. Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, and the wheels would rise along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheel. When the creatures moved, they also moved; when the creatures stood still, they also stood still; and when the creatures rose from the ground, the wheels rose along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.

Spread out above the heads of the living creatures was what looked like an expanse, sparking like ice and awesome. Under the expanse their wings were stretched out one towards the other, and each had two wings covering its body. When the creatures moved, I heard the sound of their wings, like the roar of rushing waters, like the voice of the Almighty, like the tumult of an army. When they stood still, they lowered their wings.

Then there came a voice from above the expanse over their heads as they stood with lowered wings. Above the expanse over their heads was what looked like a throne of sapphire, and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man. I saw that from what appeared to be his waist up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him. Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him.

This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. When I saw it, I fell face down, and I heard the voice of one speaking."

- - - - -

Ezekiel 1:5: “The center of the fire looked like glowing metal, and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures.”

. hNehl ed) tWmD ahye)rm hzw twYx (Br) tWmD HkwTmW

Creature = yx = Chay {khah'-ee}

Strong's Number: 02416; from 02421; TWOT: 644a

adj
1. living, alive
a. green (of vegetation)
b. flowing, fresh (of water)
c. lively, active (of man)
d. reviving (of the springtime) n m
2. relatives
3. life (abstract emphatic)
a. life
b. sustenance, maintenance n f
4. living thing, animal
a. animal
b. life
c. appetite
d. revival, renewal
5. community

Contextual usage:
Genesis 1:20: And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky."

Genesis 1:24: And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.

Genesis 6:19: You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you.

Genesis 8:21: The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

- - - - -

Ezekiel 1:11: "Such were their faces. Their wings were spread out upward; each had two wings, one touching the wing of another creature on either side, and two wings covering its body."

twrbx eyT$ $y)l hl(mlm twdUrP (8803) ehyepnkw ehyenpW . hnhyetywG te) (8802) twSkm (8764) eyT$W $y)

Body = hywg = G@viyah = {ghev-ee-yaw'}

Strong's Number: 01472; Word Origin: 01465; TWOT: 326d; Noun Feminine

1) a body (of living creatures)
2) a corpse, carcass, dead body

According to Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth Edition:

"Body: (1): (a): the main part of a plant or animal body esp. as distinguished from limb or head: TRUNK . . . (2): (a): the organized physical substance of an animal or plant either living or dead . . . (3): (a): a mass of matter distinct from other masses (b): something that embodies or gives concrete reality to a thing; also: a sensible object in physical space . . ."

Scripture does not specify a spiritual body. If it was a spiritual body or some sort of spiritual body "essence," then scripture would have specified it.

Instead, body is used without altering specification, leaving the reader to the commonly used understanding of physical body.

- - - - -

Scripture makes another clear reference to unidentified living creatures in Heaven.

Revelation 4:6-9 says, "In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. The first living creature was like a lion, the second like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:

'Holy, holy, holy
is the Lord God Almighty,
who was, and is, and is to come.'

Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the thrown, and worship him who lives for ever and ever."

These “creatures” seen in Heaven are not called angels. “Living creatures” means possessing blood by definition. They were flesh and blood.

Even scripture differentiates between these two groups.

Revelation 7:11: “All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures.”

- - - - -

Revelation 4:6: "In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back.”

Kai enwpion tou gronou wv galassa ualinh omoia krustallw| . Kai en mesw| tou gronou kai kuklw| tou gronou tessara zw|a gemonta ofqalmwn emprosqen kai opisqen;

Living Creature = zwÜøon = Zoon {dzo'-on}

Strong's Number: 2226; of a derivative of 2198; TDNT: 2:873,290; Noun Neuter

1. a living being
2. an animal, brute, beast

- - - - -

God had to do something with the perfect physical beings [“enemies” in Jeremiah 4:23] that rebelled against him and along with Lucifer. Certain “evil spirits,” or “demons,” roam around without any sort of physical body. These evil spirits, which are not called evil angels in scripture, are the disembodied spirits of the perfect physical beings that rebelled against God and were killed in his wrath.

In Mark 1:21-26, an evil spirit, or demon, tried to expose Jesus and who he really was before the proper time. The text says, "They went to Capernum, and when the Sabbath came, Jesus went into the synagogue and began to teach. The people were amazed at his teaching, because he taught them as one who had authority, not as the teachers of the law. Just then a man in their synagogue who was possessed by an evil spirit cried out, 'What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are--the Holy One of God!'

'Be quiet!' said Jesus sternly. 'Come out of him!' The evil spirit shook the man violently and come out of him with a shriek."

Mark 5:1-13 says, "They went across the lake to the region of the Gerasenes. When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an evil spirit came from the tombs to meet him. This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him any more, not even with a chain. For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him. Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones.

When he saw Jesus from the distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. He shouted at the top of his voice, 'What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won't torture me!' For Jesus was saying to him, 'Come out of this man, you evil spirit!'

Then Jesus asked him, 'What is your name?'

'My name is Legion,' he replied, 'for we are many.' And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.

A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. The demons begged Jesus, 'Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.' He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned."

Thus ends the saga of Pre-Adamic creation and war.

[theTruth]

EZEKIEL ENDNOTE

Many question the context of Ezekiel 28:12-19 because in Ezekiel 28:13 it mentions Lucifer [Satan] being in the Garden of Eden after he was identified and described as being perfect and flawless, as in before his commission of sins and rebellion. Therefore, by that argument, Ezekiel 28:12-19 must refer to Lucifer’s fall as happening during or after the existence of the Garden of Eden.

However, this is a faulty assertion because:

1) Genesis 3 points out Satan’s [Lucifer’s] presence in the Garden of Eden in the capacity of a deceiver and enemy of God. This means Satan already rebelled against God and left his original place in Heaven.

2) This argument neglects the fact that Satan and his angels are cast down and hit the earth and God follows and directs his wrath to the Earth. Such events cannot go unnoticed, and nowhere during or after the existence of the Garden of Eden is either massively destructive event accounted for.

3) Ezekiel 28:18 mentions “sanctuaries” that Lucifer [Satan] had. He definitely could have had sanctuaries during the original creation, but there is no record or existence of any sanctuaries for Satan [fallen Lucifer] in this Adamic remake of the heavens and the earth. Further, if Satan [fallen Lucifer] is the enemy of God, clear and academic logic says that God would not give him any “sanctuaries.”

4) The Garden of Eden spoken of in Ezekiel 28:13 is the original Garden of Eden on the original earth.

- - - - -

REVELATION ENDNOTE

Many assert the war in Heaven in Revelation 12:7-9 is not a past event, but a future prophetic event. However, this creates the following problems:

1) Jude 1:6 and 2 Peter 2:4 state the past tense event of angels leaving heaven and being bound in chains in Hell.

Jude 1:6 states, "And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the grea