billiefan2000
January 30th, 2003, 11:23 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,76329,00.html
Why Are Rap Lyrics Being Used as Teaching Tools in Some High Schools?
Thursday, January 23, 2003
This is a partial transcript from The O'Reilly Factor, January 21, 2003. Click here to order the complete transcript.
BILL O'REILLY, HOST: In the "Impact" segment tonight, reading, writing, and rap. Some public schools across the country are using rap lyrics in the classroom, primarily to stimulate discussions about social problems. But even, in some English classes, rap is phat -- that's P-H-A-T -- and I think that means good. But is it?
Joining us from Los Angeles, Jeffrey Duncan-Andrade, the director of urban teaching development at UCLA, and, from Miami, Tara Setmayer, a senior fellow at the Coalition of Urban Renewal and Education.
All right. Doctor, we'll begin with you. You designed some of these classes that use rap. Tell us why you did it and what it -- you think it accomplishes?
JEFFREY DUNCAN-ANDRADE, UCLA PROFESSOR: Well, first of all, I think it's important to contextualize the study that was cited in The Los Angeles Times article.
It was a six-year study done with over a thousand students which looked at ways that rap text could be used to be a bridge for students to more fruitfully access more traditional poetry and other elements of literature, and that study was peer reviewed and published in the National Council of Teachers of English "Journal," which is called the "English Journal."
And, essentially, the -- the logic behind it is based and rooted in about a hundred years of learning theory which says that it's important to start with students and their prior knowledge base and use that as a way to bridge into the academic literacies that we want to teach in schools.
O'REILLY: All right. So, basically, you're trying to get these kids interested in a subject they may not be interested in by giving them something they enjoy doing, correct?
DUNCAN-ANDRADE: Yes, I think that's...
O'REILLY: All right. That's basically -- get kids interested in reading by giving them a sport book or a military book or something like that. Now you...
DUNCAN-ANDRADE: No, I -- don't think that's an accurate reflection at all. I think that it's important to see these texts as legitimate academic texts that raise a lot of the same issues that we're asking kids to talk about using traditional literacy, such as...
O'REILLY: OK. How old are we talking about, these that kids you think should be exposed to the rap lyrics? How old?
DUNCAN-ANDRADE: Well, the study that we did was with high school seniors.
O'REILLY: OK. So would you say that high school seniors are the youngest, or would you bring it down to freshman and sophomores?
DUNCAN-ANDRADE: I think that it's important to choose the text wisely and choose age-appropriate text. I think that there are rap texts that would be usable with younger age groups but, again, I think teachers have to exercise good professional judgments in which text they choose to insert.
O'REILLY: OK. Now, Ms. Setmayer, you -- have some problems with this, correct?
TARA SETMAYER, COALITION ON URBAN RENEWAL AND EDUCATION: Well, sure I do. I mean, we need to take a look at what rap music represents today.
If we're going to use rap and teach it at all, we need to teach it as an example of how an entire generation has allowed itself to be duped by patterning its behavior after -- patterning its behaviors and goals after an amoral, money-hungry subculture that prostitutes its youths' minds by promoting moral bankrupt images and lyrics.
That's what rap music today represents. There's no place for that in the classroom.
O'REILLY: But the -- but the doctor is going to -- the doctor will submit to you that there are some rap songs that don't denigrate women, don't preach violence and drug use, and that have a message that kids may identify with. Would you see that there are some rap songs that do that?
SETMAYER: I would probably say about .1 percent of rap music falls into that category.
I think that, today, we have -- it's bad enough we have a dumbing down of our educational system, especially in inner-city communities, that we need not to be replacing the more important literary works and what -- and the basic fundamentals that we're teaching our kids in literature classes, how to analyze and diction, tone, allegory, iambic pentameter.
These are things that need to be taught, and we should not be...
O'REILLY: All right. I -- I got you...
SETMAYER: ... substituting rap lyrics for that.
O'REILLY: ... but there are some -- there are some kids who are just not going to respond to that, and I think what the doctor is trying to do is he's trying to get the kids who simply are just not going to pay attention to iambic pentameter...
SETMAYER: So...
O'REILLY: ... involved -- involved so that he can lead them into and open their world up a little bit.
SETMAYER: Well, a perfect example then would be to reverse this. Then let's get these kids to understand the traditional classics and then allow them to take their interpretation and apply it to modern times.
O'REILLY: OK. Let me stop...
SETMAYER: An English teacher of mine did the same thing in high school with Shakespeare.
O'REILLY: Let me stop you there.
Now, Doctor, this point of view is very, very persuasive, and you know Marva Collins, the doctor who teaches poor children in Chicago, and she says, hey, this is a cop-out, I can teach any kid from any background about Shakespeare and make it interesting because I'm creative and I reach the kid on a very personal basis.
And what you're doing is you're basically glorifying, as Ms. Setmayer accurately pointed out, a subculture that's destructive to children. What say you about that?
DUNCAN-ANDRADE: Actually, that's not what happens at all, and -- and I would encourage you to go into classrooms and look at teachers who are doing this because, in fact, what's happening is -- is there's a lot more than .1 percent of rap that is quality, and it is critical of the very same issues that Ms. Setmayer raises about the way the top 40 rap texts oftentimes perpetuate these negative lifestyles.
And I think that what you'll see with teachers who are using this is, in fact, the way that they're using it is to allow students the language with which to be critical of those types of lifestyles, and I think that that is a real powerful thing that schools have to do with children. We cannot deny...
O'REILLY: Yes, I see the theory. I just don't know if it's going to work in practice. I wrote a column this week...
SETMAYER: Well, it...
O'REILLY: Just one minute.
DUNCAN-ANDRADE: Well, in...
O'REILLY: I wrote a column this week on Eminem, and I said that Eminem and his ilk are the fastest ticket to poverty that you can get, because, if you imitate him in speech, in mannerism, in body piercing, or whatever, you're basically taking yourself out of the corporate world, and you're not going to be able to make a living in straight society if you emulate this man -- or any of the other rappers that preach this defiant attitude towards society.
So I'm worried, Doctor, that you're embracing of the rap world sends a message that the rap world is OK, and that...
SETMAYER: That's right.
DUNCAN-ANDRADE: And I would agree with you, and I think what we're saying here is not to just bring these rap texts in and push play. In fact, what we are saying is -- is that kids are accessing these texts, and we know there's no debate about whether or not it's influencing their lives.
So why don't we step up to the plate as educators, bring it in in a safe environment with a skilled professional, and give kids a critical space to begin to be thinking about these things critically so that they can make better decisions, rather than leaving them on their own to listen to these texts and make bad decisions.
SETMAYER: There's a very, very -- and there's a very thin line here between legitimizing this type of entertainment and educational value.
I mean, we can say the same thing about pornography. So do we take kids that are in Las Vegas high schools where prostitution is legal and kids see their parents coming in and out of brothels -- do we teach an aspect of pornography and use that as an educational tool because it's supposed to have some type of value to their culture and it will make it more interesting?
No. In the -- reading up on the story here, an example that one of the teachers used was putting men versus a ho' on the chalkboard in a classroom. That is inappropriate, and what if that brings up...
O'REILLY: That's Tupac Shakur, right?
SETMAYER: That's right. Tupac...
O'REILLY: Tupac Shakur.
SETMAYER: Tupac who was shot dead, who was defiant, who was a horrible example to black men, but yet he's heralded as a -- as this poet and as someone that we have as...
O'REILLY: I don't know if he's heralded. I'm going to...
SETMAYER: Well, in the black -- in black communities...
O'REILLY: Yes, he is, but I...
SETMAYER: In the black community, he is.
O'REILLY: ... I don't think this doctor wants him to be heralded. I think the doctor is trying to get the kids to think critically about Mr. Shakur's lifestyle.
But, anyway, it's a very interesting debate. It is going on in the public schools paid for by we the taxpayer, and we'll let the audience decide.
Ms. Setmayer and Doctor, thanks very much.
Why Are Rap Lyrics Being Used as Teaching Tools in Some High Schools?
Thursday, January 23, 2003
This is a partial transcript from The O'Reilly Factor, January 21, 2003. Click here to order the complete transcript.
BILL O'REILLY, HOST: In the "Impact" segment tonight, reading, writing, and rap. Some public schools across the country are using rap lyrics in the classroom, primarily to stimulate discussions about social problems. But even, in some English classes, rap is phat -- that's P-H-A-T -- and I think that means good. But is it?
Joining us from Los Angeles, Jeffrey Duncan-Andrade, the director of urban teaching development at UCLA, and, from Miami, Tara Setmayer, a senior fellow at the Coalition of Urban Renewal and Education.
All right. Doctor, we'll begin with you. You designed some of these classes that use rap. Tell us why you did it and what it -- you think it accomplishes?
JEFFREY DUNCAN-ANDRADE, UCLA PROFESSOR: Well, first of all, I think it's important to contextualize the study that was cited in The Los Angeles Times article.
It was a six-year study done with over a thousand students which looked at ways that rap text could be used to be a bridge for students to more fruitfully access more traditional poetry and other elements of literature, and that study was peer reviewed and published in the National Council of Teachers of English "Journal," which is called the "English Journal."
And, essentially, the -- the logic behind it is based and rooted in about a hundred years of learning theory which says that it's important to start with students and their prior knowledge base and use that as a way to bridge into the academic literacies that we want to teach in schools.
O'REILLY: All right. So, basically, you're trying to get these kids interested in a subject they may not be interested in by giving them something they enjoy doing, correct?
DUNCAN-ANDRADE: Yes, I think that's...
O'REILLY: All right. That's basically -- get kids interested in reading by giving them a sport book or a military book or something like that. Now you...
DUNCAN-ANDRADE: No, I -- don't think that's an accurate reflection at all. I think that it's important to see these texts as legitimate academic texts that raise a lot of the same issues that we're asking kids to talk about using traditional literacy, such as...
O'REILLY: OK. How old are we talking about, these that kids you think should be exposed to the rap lyrics? How old?
DUNCAN-ANDRADE: Well, the study that we did was with high school seniors.
O'REILLY: OK. So would you say that high school seniors are the youngest, or would you bring it down to freshman and sophomores?
DUNCAN-ANDRADE: I think that it's important to choose the text wisely and choose age-appropriate text. I think that there are rap texts that would be usable with younger age groups but, again, I think teachers have to exercise good professional judgments in which text they choose to insert.
O'REILLY: OK. Now, Ms. Setmayer, you -- have some problems with this, correct?
TARA SETMAYER, COALITION ON URBAN RENEWAL AND EDUCATION: Well, sure I do. I mean, we need to take a look at what rap music represents today.
If we're going to use rap and teach it at all, we need to teach it as an example of how an entire generation has allowed itself to be duped by patterning its behavior after -- patterning its behaviors and goals after an amoral, money-hungry subculture that prostitutes its youths' minds by promoting moral bankrupt images and lyrics.
That's what rap music today represents. There's no place for that in the classroom.
O'REILLY: But the -- but the doctor is going to -- the doctor will submit to you that there are some rap songs that don't denigrate women, don't preach violence and drug use, and that have a message that kids may identify with. Would you see that there are some rap songs that do that?
SETMAYER: I would probably say about .1 percent of rap music falls into that category.
I think that, today, we have -- it's bad enough we have a dumbing down of our educational system, especially in inner-city communities, that we need not to be replacing the more important literary works and what -- and the basic fundamentals that we're teaching our kids in literature classes, how to analyze and diction, tone, allegory, iambic pentameter.
These are things that need to be taught, and we should not be...
O'REILLY: All right. I -- I got you...
SETMAYER: ... substituting rap lyrics for that.
O'REILLY: ... but there are some -- there are some kids who are just not going to respond to that, and I think what the doctor is trying to do is he's trying to get the kids who simply are just not going to pay attention to iambic pentameter...
SETMAYER: So...
O'REILLY: ... involved -- involved so that he can lead them into and open their world up a little bit.
SETMAYER: Well, a perfect example then would be to reverse this. Then let's get these kids to understand the traditional classics and then allow them to take their interpretation and apply it to modern times.
O'REILLY: OK. Let me stop...
SETMAYER: An English teacher of mine did the same thing in high school with Shakespeare.
O'REILLY: Let me stop you there.
Now, Doctor, this point of view is very, very persuasive, and you know Marva Collins, the doctor who teaches poor children in Chicago, and she says, hey, this is a cop-out, I can teach any kid from any background about Shakespeare and make it interesting because I'm creative and I reach the kid on a very personal basis.
And what you're doing is you're basically glorifying, as Ms. Setmayer accurately pointed out, a subculture that's destructive to children. What say you about that?
DUNCAN-ANDRADE: Actually, that's not what happens at all, and -- and I would encourage you to go into classrooms and look at teachers who are doing this because, in fact, what's happening is -- is there's a lot more than .1 percent of rap that is quality, and it is critical of the very same issues that Ms. Setmayer raises about the way the top 40 rap texts oftentimes perpetuate these negative lifestyles.
And I think that what you'll see with teachers who are using this is, in fact, the way that they're using it is to allow students the language with which to be critical of those types of lifestyles, and I think that that is a real powerful thing that schools have to do with children. We cannot deny...
O'REILLY: Yes, I see the theory. I just don't know if it's going to work in practice. I wrote a column this week...
SETMAYER: Well, it...
O'REILLY: Just one minute.
DUNCAN-ANDRADE: Well, in...
O'REILLY: I wrote a column this week on Eminem, and I said that Eminem and his ilk are the fastest ticket to poverty that you can get, because, if you imitate him in speech, in mannerism, in body piercing, or whatever, you're basically taking yourself out of the corporate world, and you're not going to be able to make a living in straight society if you emulate this man -- or any of the other rappers that preach this defiant attitude towards society.
So I'm worried, Doctor, that you're embracing of the rap world sends a message that the rap world is OK, and that...
SETMAYER: That's right.
DUNCAN-ANDRADE: And I would agree with you, and I think what we're saying here is not to just bring these rap texts in and push play. In fact, what we are saying is -- is that kids are accessing these texts, and we know there's no debate about whether or not it's influencing their lives.
So why don't we step up to the plate as educators, bring it in in a safe environment with a skilled professional, and give kids a critical space to begin to be thinking about these things critically so that they can make better decisions, rather than leaving them on their own to listen to these texts and make bad decisions.
SETMAYER: There's a very, very -- and there's a very thin line here between legitimizing this type of entertainment and educational value.
I mean, we can say the same thing about pornography. So do we take kids that are in Las Vegas high schools where prostitution is legal and kids see their parents coming in and out of brothels -- do we teach an aspect of pornography and use that as an educational tool because it's supposed to have some type of value to their culture and it will make it more interesting?
No. In the -- reading up on the story here, an example that one of the teachers used was putting men versus a ho' on the chalkboard in a classroom. That is inappropriate, and what if that brings up...
O'REILLY: That's Tupac Shakur, right?
SETMAYER: That's right. Tupac...
O'REILLY: Tupac Shakur.
SETMAYER: Tupac who was shot dead, who was defiant, who was a horrible example to black men, but yet he's heralded as a -- as this poet and as someone that we have as...
O'REILLY: I don't know if he's heralded. I'm going to...
SETMAYER: Well, in the black -- in black communities...
O'REILLY: Yes, he is, but I...
SETMAYER: In the black community, he is.
O'REILLY: ... I don't think this doctor wants him to be heralded. I think the doctor is trying to get the kids to think critically about Mr. Shakur's lifestyle.
But, anyway, it's a very interesting debate. It is going on in the public schools paid for by we the taxpayer, and we'll let the audience decide.
Ms. Setmayer and Doctor, thanks very much.