Can You Loose Your Salvation?

[Brian.H]

“What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have of God, and you are not your own? For you are bought with a price (the substitutionary death of Christ on the cross) therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit which are Gods” (1 Cor. 6:19 & 20)

Jesus Christ purchased our freedom out of the slave market of sin. We were born as a slave to sin with a dead human spirit and condemned to the Lake of Fire.

“As by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world and death (spiritual) by sin,
and so death spread to all men…” (Romans 5:12)

“The wages of sin is death (spiritual) but the gift of God is eternal life.

Our sin problem must be solved before we can enter into Heaven because no sin is allowed in the presence of God. We must have righteousness (sinless perfection)
which is equal to Gods righteousness in order to live with God for eternity. We can do good works, go to church, give money, pray a dozen times a day, feed the poor, walk the isle, put on our pious face, get the rosy glow, jump up and down, speak in tongues, light candles, sing Do Lord, go to other countries and give kids new shoes, eat bird seed and lettuce leaves, bring someone to church, get baptized every time you change churches (in case the first one didn’t take) dedicate your life to Christ, rededicate your life to Christ (because the first one didn’t take), make Christ Lord of your life, weep tears of repentance at the alter, bring a pot of beans to the church social, repent of your sins, feel sorry for your sins, kick the devil out, confess your sins to another sinner who is just as bad a you, recite hundreds of false clichés but guess what, all of these things and anything else you do will not give you Gods perfect righteousness.

In other words our works cannot save us. Our attitude toward Jesus Christ is salvation. “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:31) Notice that Paul here did not say “you might be saved if you meet certain conditions in the future.” He said “will be saved.” Salvation is a decision. It is a belief in the Person and work of Jesus Christ. It is not living a sinless life or a life of doing good works. There are no preconditions to be saved such as cleaning up your life or repenting of your sins.

Titus 3:5 tells us “Not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to his mercy he saved us…

There are false teachers today who tell us that we are saved by Grace through faith but we can loose our salvation if we commit a BIG sin such as murder or if we sin enough small sins. God will get enough of it and take our salvation away.

...


Read full commentary... (http://www.gjcn.org/commentary/commentary.php?ID=16)

[savedandknowit]

Brian.H
your understanding of how to be saved is false. Repentance is required for salvation.

Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mar 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Any message without the call to repentance is short of telling the requirements of salvation. Any message that suggests that repentance is not needed is a false message from a false teacher.

[Carolyn]

I think he is talking of those who already have repented saw that they need Jesus gift of salvation and are saved.

Can a person be sorry for their sins and yet NOT have accepted Jesus gift of salvation, accept that HE did it all on the cross, suffered and died and took upon himself all our sin?

[dusty]

Hi Brian -- welcome to RR. :)


I do believe repentance is required...but repentance of what? When you repent of something, you turn from it, forever. Have any of us repented as far as never repeating sins, plural, again? I believe the repentance needed for salvation is the repentance from the sin, singular, of unbelief. We, repent, turn from our unbelief to belief.


:)

[LisaAnn]

I come from the camp of OSNAS. I think Todd (our fearless leader :D ) Has a good colletion of articles on this point of view. Here is a link:

www.raptureready.com/rr-eternal-security.html

I also came across this verse in Revelations yesterday and I wondered what you guys thought about it in light of the OSAS and OSNAS issues.
Revlation 22:18-19 "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

Vs 19 uses the words 'take away' in referance to a persons portion of the tree of life and life in the holy city. You cant take something away from someone if they never had it to begin with as the OSAS says. I am just curious to see what your take is on this portion.

[Carolyn]

Dusty, Amen! ( You always say it better than I.)

[dusty]

Carolyn, I disagree :) but thank you for the compliment...your posts are always clear and concise. :)

Hi LisaAnn,

My take on it comes from the premise of saved by grace thru faith alone in Christ so no man can boast. That salvation is a gift from God. A verse that may shed some light on "taken away" is in Luke...

Lk. 8:18
Therefore, take care how you listen. For whoever has, more will be given to him; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has will be taken away from him.

Those written in the Lamb's book of Life have been written there from the start...

Eph 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.

Notice that we in Christ are holy and without blame before Him.

Joh 3:18
He that believeth on Him is not condemned...

The gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Ro. 11:29

Rev. 13:8
All those who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name was not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.

Only those who have not been written in the Lamb's book of Life from the foundation of the world are condemned. All of God's saints were written in the Lamb's book of Life before the foundation of the world. God has foreknowledge. Did He make mistakes by incorrectly writing in names that would need to be erased later, or are we holy and without blame before Him because of faith in Christ alone?



:)

[LisaAnn]

Eternal Security Vs. Responsibility

By Todd Strandburg



Eternal security: the belief that once a person accepts Jesus Christ as his Savior he can never be lost. Eternal security sounds great until you realize this doctrine allows people to commit every sin under the sun, without suffering any consequences for their complete lack of holy living.

Why most people lack any concern for their eternal salvation is the most baffling question I can ponder. It says in the Bible that few people will choose to make heaven their eternal home. (Mat 7:13-14) The Bible and man are in sharp conflict with each other, because most folks expect to be bound for heaven when they leave this world.

It's no accident that most people are deceived about their eternal destiny. Satan, who is describes as the enemy of mankind, has made the damnation of souls his full-time job. Of course, everyone that's been hoodwinked by the devil into believing a lie only has themselves to blame for their poor judgment.

Satan doesn't come knocking on everyone's door saying, "Excuse me, could I please deceive you into losing your eternal soul." The devil and his fallen angels have a much smother approach. They labor 24 hours a day seven days a week, dreaming up new schemes that have men following paths that appear to be the way to heaven, but in reality they all lead to a dead end called hell.

The all pervasive eternal security teaching has to ranks as one of the devil's favorite tools for deceiving man into neglecting or turning away from God's plan of salvation.

Alarm bells should have sounded immediately the first time it was made known that eternal security allows its adherents to sin as they please.

I'm amazed that a doctrine so contrary to the word of God could have so many people relying upon it as their means of salvation. Jesus said, "he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." (Mat 24:13) For someone to think they can just claim Jesus as their Savior and go on living a life of iniquity is ridiculous. Jesus told us in Mat 7:23, when judgment day comes, He'll be saying to many, "...I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."




The Need For Open-Mindedness
I'm very familiar with the average person's love for eternal security. Some folks cling to this doctrine with a mind so closed that it can only describe as a steel vault that has been welded shut on both sides, with them locked inside.
I just hope these people checked with the word of God before sealing themselves in. I've had several of them tell me, "I don't know where it says in the Bible I have eternal security, I just know somehow it's here."

Who in their right mind would buy a house without seeing it first, and who would be foolish enough to invest their eternal destiny into a doctrine that they never thoroughly verified?

One of the main reasons the book of James was written was to combat this false doctrine of eternal security. When I tell someone James' comments on the matter: "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:26), People will flatly refuse to believe the words right in front of their eyes.

I get reactions like: "What version is your Bible?," "Yea, but did you check the meaning in the original Greek?," "Dose it say that anywhere else in the Bible?," or no reaction it all.

When I was a young Christian, I heard the eternal security message and I thought, "that sounds great." However, being a wise little Christian I checked for opposing scriptures and I found plenty, so I ask you to please read this with an open-mind.




A Three-Way Warning
In researching this article, I was primarily looking for warnings that applied to Christians who think they can remain in sin. As I was looking through the book of Ezekiel, I found a passage that acts as a very good warning to the wicked, the wayward saints, and to all Christian leaders.

Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. Again, When a righteous [man] doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Ezekiel 3:19-20
The warning to the Christian leaders shouldn't go by with out comment. I would guess a near majority of our nation's preachers believe in eternal security. I'm not going to read the riot act to anyone who teaches eternal security. But I will say that preaching responsibility instead of eternal security is a move where you just can't go wrong.




Grace Demands Responsibility
In the Bible there are several passages where God promises us the gift of eternal life, and the Bible also makes it perfectly clear that we can never earn that gift. However, a problem develops when people start to think that they don't need to show any responsibilities towards God's gift of salvation.

I have read several authors that believe in eternal security and everyone of them only searched for references that reflected God's commitment to saving us. After digging a little deeper, I found a gold mine of evidence that everyone who's under God's grace needs to accept that dreaded word responsibility.


Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (Matthew 7:21-22)

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils. (1 Timothy 4:1)

And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. (Exodus 32:33)

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (Revelation 3:5)

For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? (Luke 6:46)



God Didn't Include Any Exemptions
You can just about open up your Bible to any page and find a reference to God's hatred of sin. No one after reading the Bible from cover to cover, should be able to make the conclusion that God winks at iniquity. In several places, God lists the types of conduct He simply refuses to tolerate. When I read the following scriptures, I failed to spot any exemptions allowing Christians to ignore God's warns:

Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. (1 John 3:15)

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. (2 Tim 3:1-5

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8)

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. (2 Peter 2:20-22)

But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. (1 Corinthians 5:11)


A License To Sin
I think the most flagrant problem with the once-saved-always-save doctrine is the notion people can confess to be a Christian, and yet live a life so depraved, the devil hinself would refuse to associate with them. Those that promote eternal security never mention the fact that people openly abuse the sin option. I remember meeting with one prime example:

One day I was talking with a gentlemen about prophecy, and from the start I was aware of the fact he was smoking, which usually doesn't bother me. However, when he begin using profanity, that did bother me.

I thought it would be a good idea to ask him if Christians could miss out on the rapture. He, of course, didn't think it was possible for a believers to fall away, causing them to miss the rapture. As the conversation progressed, or better said digressed, he continued to chain smoke, curse repeatedly, and refer to a certain racial groups using inappropriate terms.

He had little knowledge of the Bible, but he did know all the once-saved-always-saved scriptures by heart. I quoted several responsibility scriptures to him, but he absolutely refused to even ponder one them. It was like talking to a member of some mind control cult.

Somehow we got to talking about his smoking habit, and he gave me an explanation that I just could not believe. This guy with a straight face explained to me, because he's a child of God, whatever he does is God's will being done.

He pointed to the cigarette he was smoking and said, I'm smoking this because God wants me to, and when He wants me to stop, He'll tell me. I should of asked him, "How could it be the Lord's will that Christians should cheat on their spouses or abuse their children?" I've heard this demonic theory before, but I'd never thought I'd meet anyone who believed it.

Well, after several hours of listening to his "it God's will" reasoning and after realizing I was getting nowhere, I decided I had enough, and I bluntly told him, "That cigarette you have in your hand is your god, and until you make Jesus Christ number one in your life, you will never see the kingdom of God."

His reaction amazed me. He cursed God's name saying, "There is no [expletive] way he is going to leave one of his own behind." It really wasn't the cursing that amazed me, it was that fact he had no idea that the Bible and his beliefs were in total contradiction to each other.




Few There Be That Find It
In America about 84 percent of its citizens claim to be "Christian," and a reported 57 percent belong to a church. When asked if they think they'll be going to heaven, over 90 percent believe that heaven will be their final destination.

Despite people's overwhelming optimism, Jesus in Mat 7:13-14 said few would be saved. I've been asking people what they believe all my life, and I've found a very large portion of society holds to some form of the once-saved-always-saved doctrine.

I've had several people tell me, they've eternally settled the issue long ago, and this are from people who openly smoke, swear, lie, cheat, or you name it. In order for Jesus to be telling the truth, eternal security would have to be an absolute falsehood.

Knowing that the odds are already stacked against us, for someone to come along and offer us a "guaranteed" ticket to glory and an unlimited option to sin as I so desire, our reaction should be, "Get thee behind me Satan!"




Some Examples From The Bible
Saul King Of Israel
A number of preachers will tell you that Saul, the first king of Israel, was saved when he died. They may believe that, but what does the word of God say regarding Saul's fate:


So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it; And inquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse. (1 Chronicles 10:13-14)
If this is describing a faithful saint of God going home to glory, then I guess I don't understand plain English.




Ananias And Sapphira
The once-saved-always-saved folks will also tell you that Ananias and Sapphira died saved, but again what does the Bible say:


But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him. And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband [are] at the door, and shall carry thee out. Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying [her] forth, buried [her] by her husband. (Acts 5:1-10)
These two people were liars, and what does the Bible say about liars. In Rev 21:8 it says, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."




Those That Change Their Minds
Another bizarre argument that the eternal security crowd propagates is the idea that once you decide to become a Christian, you can never change your mind. Once you're in there's no escape. What Bible did this cultic teaching coming from, certainly not the one I'm using.

The apostle Peter says in 2 Peter 2:21 that it would "had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." Not only did Peter say that believers can turn away, but he said it would be better for them to not have become aware of something that would end up haunting them throughout all eternity.

One excuse I hear a lot that tries to explain how someone can seem to fall away is the statement that "these people never really believed in the first place." I known people who were saved miraculous, yet they fell away. If their salvation wasn't legitimate, then I'd have to doubt honesty of every all confessions.





Causing Your Brother To Stumble
Even if the advocates of the eternal security were somehow correct in their position, they would still be in gross violation of a doctrine that Paul laid out in Romans 14:14-20.

The Apostle Paul told the Romans that even though there's nothing scripturally wrong with eating meat sacrificed to idols, they shouldn't do so, because if a brother saw them eating the meat, they could cause him to stumble, do to the fact he may not know there's nothing evil about consuming pagan meat.

Now compare Paul's advise with those who think they should be able live an impure life. If you're the only Christian at your work place, and at your next office party, you get drunk as a skunk. Doesn't that tell your unsaved co-workers, drinking booze is OK with God?

If we were going to rectify Paul's writings in Romans with the examples that many Christians are setting today, we would have Paul jumping up on a table and offering praises to almighty Zeus for this wonderful meal.

In Mat 18:6 Jesus spoke of anyone who would cause little children to stumble said, "...it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea."





Rewards
When we leave this world behind, the only thing we'll be taking with us is the works we've performed. In heaven, the status and rewards that God will be bestowing upon us are completely determined by what we achieve down here on earth.
If you're someone whose only goal is to just get by, I think you need to reconsider your retirement plan. Jesus told his disciples, "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." (John 14:2)

Many Christians are expecting receive a mansion from Jesus, but if our works are what Jesus will be using to build that mansion, the only thing someone should be expecting is a grass hut with a dirt floor.

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." (Gal 6:7-8)

If all you've done is sown to the flesh, then how can you possibly think you'll be reaping from anything but the flesh.





In Conclusion
Finally, if there really was a shred of truth to the eternal security doctrine, Jesus would have had preacher spreading the gospel in an entirely different way than what's currently be used. Evangelists would simply be on street corners with a sign-up sheets yelling, "Just sign your name folks and we'll fill-out the paperwork for you." Everyone would be saved and hell would be very lonely place.

Unfortunately, because of doctrines like eternal security, hell has had to enlarge itself to make room for the millions of lost souls that have been deceived into going there. (Isaiah 5:14)

Like it or not, everyone of us is involved in a race, with heaven as the finish line. I Don't think it matters with God well you run the race. What he's looking for is whether or not you stay in the race. I like how one preacher put it, " When you come through the pearly gates, you may be so spiritually week that you'll need two angles on each side of you to keep you from falling over."

At times the road may appear long and difficult, but if you keep your mind focused on the prize, I'm confident you can make it. "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12)

[LisaAnn]

Eternal Security Arguments and Proof Texts
Dan Corner


This refutation to unconditional eternal security (UES) would be incomplete if the primary proof texts and objections offered by the UES proponents were not dealt with and explained from Scripture. The following are additional objections that were not yet dealt with in this controversy. (Already explained were Jn. 6:64; Rom. 8:35-39; 2 Tim. 2:13 and 1 Jn. 2:19. Therefore, they will not be dealt with here.)


OBJECTION #1. Jesus said, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, no one can snatch them out of my hand," Jn. 10:28. Therefore, if, having received eternal life, we could lose it and perish, it would make Christ a liar.


"Notice a triple promise here concerning the security of God's sheep. First, Christ gives them 'eternal' life. Second, they shall 'never' perish, and third, neither shall any pluck them out of Christ's hand."(26)


ANSWER: Jn. 10:28 is a wonderful and true promise, but only as Jesus meant it to be understood! We must examine Jn. 10:27 carefully to understand who "them" and "they" are in verse 28 and what the Lord was saying. It reads, "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they FOLLOW me." This is the only type of person, the one that meets these conditions, that will "NEVER PERISH," according to the next verse!


Did you notice the words, "they follow me"? The word translated "follow" is a PRESENT INDICATIVE ACTIVE in the Greek, which asserts something which is occurring while the speaker is making the statement. In other words, as long as we remain faithful and CONTINUE to follow Jesus, He will, indeed, assure us that we will "never perish," v.28.


No such promise, however, is given here (or anywhere in the Bible) to one that would turn and start "to follow Satan" as Paul knew could and did happen (1 Tim. 5:15)! It clearly does NOT cover such. Some read into Jn. 10:28 the words, "under any circumstance" after the words "never perish," but they are NOT there! Jesus did NOT include them in his promise and neither should we!


OBJECTION #2. Can you be "born again" again?


ANSWER: This is a rhetorical question that has confused some. To be "born again" is the same as getting saved or believing in Jesus. Therefore, if one stops believing in Jesus, then later starts believing again, he did indeed get saved again, as Rom. 11:23 declares. Remember also the Prodigal who became "alive again" (Lk. 15:24,32).


OBJECTION #3. Those that truly get saved will faithfully endure to the end and never follow another.


ANSWER: This was not true with Saul, Solomon, Judas, the unnamed disciples of Jn. 6:66 and many others! Furthermore, Jesus clearly taught that one could "believe for a while" then fall away or die (Lk. 8:13)! Paul similarly taught that one could "believe in vain" (1 Cor. 15:2) and fall "away from grace" (Gal. 5:4). Therefore, the wishful position of the UES proponent here is, again, refuted by the truth of Scripture.


OBJECTION #4. "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life," Jn. 5:24. The verse says "will not be condemned." Therefore, one cannot lose it!


ANSWER: The word in Jn. 5:24 rendered "believes" is transliterated as PISTEUON and is also a PRESENT PARTICIPLE in the Greek. Therefore, the Lord is saying here that we must CONTINUOUSLY BE BELIEVING the Father, that is, his testimony about Jesus, which implies that Jesus alone is to be the focal point of our TRUST for our soul's salvation. See Matt. 17:5 cf. Jn. 14:6. We will never be condemned, as long as we keep this condition -- a continued 100% trusting in Jesus for our soul's salvation.


OBJECTION #5. "The Bible Answer Man" is Hank Hanegraaff. He's on coast to coast radio, he can't be wrong! He wrote the following, "And remember, eternal life comes to the believer through faith in Christ is not life for two weeks, two months, or even two years; eternal life is everlasting life. It begins at the moment of conversion and stretches on through the eons of time." (27)


ANSWER: Hank is right when he writes that eternal life (or salvation) "comes to the believer through faith in Christ" and "begins at the moment of conversion." Also, it DOES remain everlasting (or eternal) life. That can't change. However, this doesn't necessitate that we can't be lost after we receive the "gift" of eternal life. In other words, eternal life is the "gift" (Rom. 6:23). As long as we have the gift, we have eternal life. Moreover, as long as we have spiritual life, it is everlasting, but according to Scripture a person once saved can still "die" spiritually (Rom. 8:13) and miss the kingdom of God (Gal. 5:19-21)!


OBJECTION #6. We are made sons of God, not put on probation!


ANSWER: Yes, it is true that we become a son of God at the point of salvation (Jn. 1:12). However, "We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly TILL THE END the confidence we had at first," Heb. 3:14. This verse is also true! Better than the word "probation" would be to say: according to Scripture, after salvation, we are sons of God with a free will and the potential of still not inheriting the kingdom of God, because of certain sins, false doctrine about salvation and disowning Christ during persecution.


OBJECTION #7. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life," Jn. 3:16. Jesus said "shall not perish"!


ANSWER: The word "believe" is PRESENT PARTICIPLE again! Therefore, Jesus was promising only those that CONTINUE to BELIEVE on HIM the assurance that they "shall not perish." This verse does NOT cover others that just "believe for a while" then fall away, as Scripture mentions (Lk. 8:13). Remember, one can truly believe, but this doesn't mean he will always continue to believe on Jesus in the future!


OBJECTION #8. I agree with Dave Hunt who wrote, "Salvation is the full pardon by grace from the penalty of all sin, past, present or future...."(28)


ANSWER: Dave Hunt has done an excellent job exposing and refuting false doctrine and various forms of subtle deceptions that plague the church. However, regarding this subject, we disagree with him.


Yes, we are saved by GRACE. However, the rest of this argument is contrasted by Scripture! See Peter's advice to Simon (Acts 8:22,23); Prov. 28:13 and John's teaching on this subject as cited in 1 Jn. 1:9. This is the Scriptural basis for getting forgiven AFTER initial salvation. At salvation, all sin to that point is forgiven and forgotten (Lk. 23:42,43; 18:9-14; Acts 10:43-48; Psa. 103:12). However, all sins afterwards committed are NOT automatically covered! If they were, then Rom. 8:13; Gal. 5:19-21; etc. would be senseless! Furthermore, Jesus clearly taught that our future sins would not be automatically forgiven in Matt. 6:14,15!


OBJECTION #9. "...love for the one who saved us is the greatest and only acceptable motive for living a holy life...."(29)


ANSWER: FEAR, like love, is indeed a legitimate motive or reason for serving God! Jesus told the Twelve when they were about to go out: "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, BE AFRAID of the one who can destroy both soul and body in Hell," Matt. 10:28. Furthermore, Paul wrote: "...they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but BE AFRAID. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either," Rom. 11:20,21. Finally, remember Psa. 2:11, "Serve the Lord with FEAR and rejoice with trembling."


OBJECTION #10. God wouldn't save a person then later send him to Hell.


ANSWER: This was not the case for Judas and Saul, the king of Israel! The real truth is God would never force a person to continue to follow Jesus even after his faith in Jesus produced salvation. Read and ponder Revelation chapters 2 and 3.


Furthermore, this objection is like saying, God would never give His Spirit to later take it away from a person. This, however, clearly wasn't the case for Saul (1 Sam. 16:14).


OBJECTION #11. Our fellowship with God can suffer, but never one's relationship as a son.


ANSWER: As "adopted" sons (Eph. 1:5), we can fall away (Lk. 8:13), lose our inheritance of the kingdom of God (Gal. 5:21), be disowned by Christ (Matt. 10:33), have our name blotted from the book of life (Rev. 3:5), have our share in the tree of life and New Jerusalem taken away (Rev. 22:19), "DIE" because we chose to live according to the sinful nature (Rom. 8:13) and as the Prodigal SON, become "dead" and "lost" (Lk. 15:24)! This obviously describes a much greater loss than just our fellowship with God (or rewards), as some would wishfully like us to believe!


OBJECTION #12. Those that are saved have an inheritance that can "never perish, spoil or fade -- kept in heaven" for us (1 Pet. 1:3,4).


ANSWER: This wonderful passage of Scripture only describes our inheritance as Christians. It doesn't say that we cannot annul it through our after-conversion activities and/or beliefs! In fact, just the opposite was repeatedly declared by Paul (Gal. 5:21; 1 Cor. 6:9,10; 15:2; etc.).


OBJECTION #13. Jesus prayed to the Father that He would protect His disciples and that none would be lost. Certainly, the Father heard Jesus' prayer!


ANSWER: The verse referred to is from John 17. This, however, is not a certainty of remaining saved! In the very same prayer, Jesus also prayed for "complete unity" among the believers (Jn. 17:24). Clearly, from 1 Cor. 1:10-13, this didn't occur. Therefore, there must be some unnamed, outside factor to consider here. Remember, it was Jesus Himself who told His disciples that they would have to "stand firm to the end to be saved" on more than one occasion (Matt. 10:22; 24:13) and to "REMAIN" in Him or be thrown into the fire (Jn. 15:4-6)! Also, according to Rom. 8:34, Jesus is now praying for us from the right hand of God. This, however, doesn't mean that His servants cannot be deceived by false teachers, grow lukewarm, fall into impurity, etc. His powerful prayers and our free will work together. Our free will can, however, override His incredibly powerful prayers and His will for us. This is also evident from the following: It is His will that none should perish (2 Pet. 3:9), yet most will perish (Matt. 7:13,14), in spite of His will! This is also the answer for the UES proponent who argues from Heb. 7:25 or Rom. 8:34 regarding Jesus' prayers for us now.


OBJECTION #14. "...if salvation from the penalty of breaking God's laws cannot be earned by good deeds, then it CANNOT BE LOST BY BAD DEEDS" (30) (emphasis his, but capitalized words are italicized in original).


ANSWER: This type of statement-conclusion must be carefully examined. Yes, it is true that we don't gain our salvation by good deeds, according to Eph. 2:8,9; Tit. 3:5; 2 Tim. 1:9 and Rom. 4:4-6. However, the conclusion is FALSE, according to MANY Scriptural passages. See 1 Cor. 6:9,10 and Gal. 5:19-21 just to mention two. Remember also the many other references cited in this study. (Also, let's call it "sin" not just "bad deeds.")


Please note that sins such as worry and unthankfulness are not listed anywhere in Scripture as being spiritually lethal, as drunkenness, greed, sexual immorality, idolatry, slander and lying are!


OBJECTION #15. A child cannot become unborn, and the relationship of a father and a child cannot be ended. Once a son, always a son.


ANSWER: This argument is based on natural fact, then applied to the spiritual, which doesn't always hold up as truth. (UES adherents frequently make this kind of mistake!) This type of error can be demonstrated by the following facts: Before we became Christians, we were all "children of the devil" (Acts 13:10; 1 Jn. 3:10) and "sons of the evil one" (Matt. 13:38). In other words, the devil was our spiritual father (Jn. 8:44). However, this spiritual father-child relationship changed at the point of salvation, according to Scripture! Aren't you glad that spiritual father-child relationships CAN be ended?


Furthermore, many UES adherents who know the fallacy of the deification of man teaching would be quick to reject one of their arguments which is, likewise, based on natural fact then applied to the spiritual! That faulty argument put forth by Earl Paulk is: "Dogs have puppies and cats have kittens, so God has little gods."(31) Therefore, this type of reasoning must be carefully compared with Scripture.


OBJECTION #16. "...I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day," (2 Tim. 1:12). The only way Paul could have made this statement for himself was if he believed in unconditional eternal security.


ANSWER: Paul certainly knew that a "know-so" salvation existed and that he had it. However, we can assume that Paul believed personally the things he wrote to others. This means that Paul knew his "know-so" salvation at the moment could be negated in the future, as already cited.


Furthermore, Paul obviously believed God would guard or keep him. However, he also knew about the human responsibility for this: "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith" (2 Tim. 4:7). Here we see Paul believed in human responsibility too.


OBJECTION #17. A real Christian won't ever be condemned as Romans 8:1 reads, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus...."


ANSWER: This "no condemnation" mentioned in Rom. 8:1 refers ONLY to those that are in Christ Jesus! This can only be the case if we continue in the faith, for it's definitely possible NOT to remain in the Son (Jn. 15:6; 1 Jn. 2:24; 2 Jn. 9). Furthermore, the K. J. V. renders the "no condemnation" as conditional for only the ones who "walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit"!


OBJECTION #18. Phil. 1:6 declares, "Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." This proves unconditional eternal security.


ANSWER: The New Testament declares this promise to be true ONLY in the lives of those who meet the conditions stated elsewhere in Scripture as in Matt. 10:22; Rom. 8:13; Gal. 6:8; etc.


Also, Phil. 1:6 needs to be understood in the light of the context of that book. Phil. 2:12 declares that this church group "always obeyed" in Paul's presence. Though not perfect, this was not a lukewarm, worldly church group, for not only did they "always obey," they were enduring the same types of struggles that Paul had (1:29,30), and they alone helped support Paul financially from the very beginning and were still doing so as this epistle was being written (4:14-16).


Besides the context of the book, the immediate context of the verse CLEARLY shows WHY Paul was so "confident," as he states in verse 6, which is really the whole basis of this favorite UES argument. Verse 7 reads, "It is right for me to feel this way about all of you, since I have you in my heart...." Note: The basis of the "confidence" mentioned in verse 6 was NOT a guaranteed eternal security which all Christians have in common! The basis of Paul's "confidence" mentioned in verse 6 was that he had them "IN HIS HEART" -- meaning they would be aided in their personal struggles by his heart felt prayers cited in verses 9-11. Note the same phrase mentioned in verse 6, "until the day of Christ Jesus" is repeated in verse 10 as "until the day of Christ," which connects Paul's "confidence" for them to his prayers for them.


OBJECTION #19. Samson was sexually immoral and he's mentioned as a hero in Hebrews 11. Therefore, one can be sexually immoral, like him, and be saved.


ANSWER: It's true that Samson is mentioned in Heb. 11:32, and why he was included in this chapter is mentioned in verse 34. This, however, has nothing to do with the conclusion that one can be sexually immoral and be saved. The Apostle Paul, in no uncertain terms, stated that the sexually immoral are wicked, impure, and God rejecters who will NOT inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9,10; Gal. 5:19-21; Eph. 5:5,6; 1 Thess. 4:3-8). Furthermore, God Himself declared that the sexually immoral will go to the fiery lake of burning sulfur (Rev. 21:5-8). Samson, David and/or any living person today is no exception!

OBJECTION #21. 1 Jn. 3:9 says, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." This seems clear to me that someone truly saved can't go back to a life of sin.


ANSWER: In part, this verse deals with initial salvation, which frees one from sin's slavery and changes his desire for sin. However, to conclude from this verse that one can't go back to a life of sin is error as the Biblical examples of Solomon, the younger widows of 1 Tim. 5:11-15, those referred to in 2 Pet. 2:20-22, etc. show! "God's seed," His Word, impedes sin IF HIDDEN IN OUR HEART (Psa. 119:9-11). However, as one might not "remain" in the Vine (Jn. 15:6), God's seed might not "remain" in the person who gets born of God! If 1 Jn. 3:9 had the meaning the UES advocates give it, then Paul's multiple warnings to the Christians would be meaningless (Gal. 5:19-21)!


OBJECTION #22. I believe in UES because I believe in the finished work of Christ!


ANSWER: The unnamed writer of Hebrews certainly believed in the finished work of Christ also (Heb. 7:27; 9:26; 10:11-14)! This, however, didn't mean he believed in UES as well (Heb. 3:12-14; 6:4-6; 10:26-31)! The same can be said elsewhere about Paul (Rom. 6:10 cf. Rom. 8:13; Gal. 5:19-21; 2 Tim. 2:12; etc.).


Such UES proponents infer that it is impossible to believe in the finished work of Christ and not believe in UES at the same time, in an effort to immediately discredit the opposing view. Obviously, they are wrong, according to what was just cited. The finished work of Christ is foundational to Christianity, but irrelevant in this controversy regarding the believer's security.


OBJECTION #23. I know I am eternally secure because God has promised that He will never leave me and never forsake me.


ANSWER: This is quoted from Heb. 13:5b which is taken from the Old Testament reference of Deut. 31:6,8. Though God's promise to Israel in Deut. 31 verses 6 and 8 is that He [God] will never "forsake" them, about ten verses later in the same chapter God predicts Israel will "forsake" Him, then in verse 17 He said, "On that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many DISASTERS AND DIFFICULTIES will come upon them, and on that day they will ask, 'Have not these disasters come upon us because our God is not with us?' And I will certainly hide my face on that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods." [This is a conditional promise, as the whole chapter bears out, which can be nullified by "wickedness." If we "forsake" God by turning to wickedness, He will "forsake" us!]


What does it mean then to be forsaken by God here? When this occurred, various "calamities" came upon them: wasting famine, consuming pestilence, deadly plague, wild beasts, vipers and sword, according to Deut. 32:23-25. Therefore, the UES people read into this Scripture found in Heb. 13 something that is not there, for it does not even deal with an assured and guaranteed entrance into the kingdom of God at all, but instead a promise for temporal protection and well-being only, which can be negated by sin!

[LisaAnn]

:) Sorry about the lengthly copy and pastes but I thought they should be posted and I didnt want to paraphrase them. The second one is actually shortened because of its length so if you want to read the whole article click on the link I provided above.

I think one of the most convincing portions of scripture to me for OSNAS is Galations 5:16-21 "So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. 19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. "

The book of Galations was written to the church(es) of Galatia, not to the unbelievers. I think that OSAS is a dangerous theory because it allows people to sin and still get to heaven. So, here we have two opposing theories on salvation so it stands to reason that one is right and one is wrong. I am sure that we wont be 100% sure until we get to heaven, since both sides have scriptures they assume back up their own beliefs. So, I personally would rather err on the side of safety and assume that you can, in fact, lose your salvation especially since there is much scriptural evidence to back this up. I dont want to be one that thought for sure I was 'in' and hear Jesus say to me "Depart from me for I never knew you" as the scriptures indicate many will hear and be surprised.

[Slippery]

so Lisa, you prefer to err on the side of works :D
Everytime I try to keep and maintain my salvation, I always see that I sin, I get anxious and engage in worry which is very counterproductive. But everytime I decide to let Jesus take care of it, and ask him to keep me from evil, I always do good and keep from sinning.

While many are of the flawed notion that OSAS induces and fosters impunity amongst Christians to do and live as they please, that is severely wrong and erroneous, because God does not save people and keep their heart dark and callous so that they do as they please. God sanctifies the heart and for those of his Children who misbehaves, he chastens them and disciplines them into the correct behavior and attitude.
This is what the Bible clearly teaches.

As for those in the camp of the OSNAS, I think that their motivation is good in that they try to get Christians to not be careless with the gift of salvation that was bestowed upon them by God, but they always run into problems because they end up preaching, "maintenance and assurance of salvation by works". The last time I checked, all there is to be a Christian is to sincerely repent of your sins and accept Jesus as Lord. God does the rest and the Holy Spirit preserves you until the day of salvation.

The cases of Saul and Judas have always been overused as cases of men who were once saved and lost their salvation. But upon examination Saul was already rejected as well as Judas because Jacob in the Book of Genesis specifically states that the Sceptre and the Lawgiver shall not depart from Judah. Saul came from the tribe of Benjamin. Saul was already rejected way before he became King, and the motions that Saul went through were just a witness of what an unrepentent person would come to.

Same as Judas, Judas was never saved. Judas was always unrepentent and Jesus himself said, "Have I not chosen all of you, and one is the devil". This in no way indicates that Judas was ever saved or was ever going to be saved. It is because of Judas unrepentent attitude that he willingly betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver and then killed himself. Peter did not betray Jesus for any money, Peter denied Jesus to spare himself from potential arrest. Peter then repented.

Both cases of OSAS and OSNAS are wrong, because salvation is not dependent upon men or the works of good men. This is where Predestination makes perfect sense, in that God willingly chooses who he will have compassion on and who he will have mercy on. It is God who is sovereign and who has the final say in who will be saved and who will not be saved, not men. Men cannot add one inch unto their stature or one strand of hair unto their head, you actually think God is going to give them the power to impact his salvation process via his Son? NO. It is God who softens the heart, convicts of sin, brings to repentence, sanctifies and glorifies. Not no man.
Salvation is of GOD, and not of man. So let us, both camps, cut out the self righteous nonesense about working and maintaining.
God changes the heart and gives a new attitude so that the person who repents, obeys him and abides by his commandments and directives. Its not that the person repents and then goes on by trying to obey God and starts obeying commandments. Obedience comes from a change of attitude, and a change of attitude comes from a change of heart, and only God can change the heart, not man.

It is God who saves, and when God saves no one can pluck any that he saves out of his hand.
So OSAS is wrong. OSNAS is also wrong. It is GSPS {God SAVES, AND WHOEVER HE SAVES ARE PERMANENTLY SAVED)

[theTruth]

Originally posted by Slippery
It is God who softens the heart, convicts of sin, brings to repentence, sanctifies and glorifies. Not no man.
Salvation is of GOD, and not of man. So let us, both camps, cut out the self righteous nonesense about working and maintaining.
God changes the heart and gives a new attitude so that the person who repents, obeys him and abides by his commandments and directives. Its not that the person repents and then goes on by trying to obey God and starts obeying commandments. Obedience comes from a change of attitude, and a change of attitude comes from a change of heart, and only God can change the heart, not man.

It is God who saves, and when God saves no one can pluck any that he saves out of his hand.
So OSAS is wrong. OSNAS is also wrong. It is GSPS {God SAVES, AND WHOEVER HE SAVES ARE PERMANENTLY SAVED)

Close, but complete predestination, is just as erroneous.

It is God who softens the hearts of men that CHOOSE God.
Those who choose out of their own freewill, He predestines them all the way to glory.

Predestined based on their love of God.

Love is a FREEWILL action. You cannot force the love of God. And God cannot force you to love Him, that would nullify the meaning and definition of what love is.

Love is a choice.

You are either saved or not. There is no such thing as losing your salvation. You never had it to begin with.

[PacificRedd]

We can lose our salvation .. but God isn't the one who takes it back. We give it back. It is a conscience decision that we make. It's not about enough small sins will make you lose it or a big sin, it's about when you sin and you don't care. "Oh well. I'm saved". It is a license to sin. People love thinking that their salvation cannot be lost, for by it to be lost, that requires extreme devotion to God and things that we may not want to do. When we know we have a choice in front of us to sin or not to sin, and we sin, not caring, and not repenting, that is spitting in God's face. You are responsible for your sins, what you choose to do, is YOUR decision. If it is against God, and you don't care or repent, your lost again Brother. You know where God is and how to get to Him, but everytime you sin your causing distance in your relationship with Him. Soon enough after you sin so much your not going to care at all and your salvation is lost. Your back at square one. What you do then is live a life of sin and maybe realize it, then come back to God, broken and half your life destroyed. If we be ruled by sin, we shall inevitably be ruined by it. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. John 10:10 God isn't being mean here, He just knows what is best and how your life can be SO much better without those sins you hold on to and justify because your 'saved'. And the way He sets us free is by enabling us to embrace the Truth, rather than deception and lies. Don't embrace the eternal security because it isn't true. Let your sins go, for it is possible. It is very possible to live a life for Christ. We do sin, but when we sin it should be because we didn't know better or because it happened so fast that we didn't think about it ... but before we even finish the sin, we should be on our knees crying out for forgiveness. God does forgive us and we are saved! Christ will give us the strength to overcome our sins and the things we want to hold on to. Cry to the Lord. But you say, "I HAVE called to Him and I'm still falling." Keep crying out to Him! Have you ever noticed that when the Israelites first began calling to the Lord for help that their slavery increased? Be blessed!

[Slippery]

Originally posted by theTruth



Love is a FREEWILL action. You cannot force the love of God. And God cannot force you to love Him, that would nullify the meaning and definition of what love is.

Love is a choice.

You are either saved or not. There is no such thing as losing your salvation. You never had it to begin with.
I would agree with you, but of what good is "Freewill", when you are born into sin and have a sin nature?
Freewill is of no use to anyone or anybody whose nature and moral compass is in the direction of sin.
Muchless when the person is limited and sinful.
A sinful person cannot choose to love the beautiful, all eternal, HOLY and gracious GOD, knowing fully well that this God hates sin and judges sin. This is illogical, and no matter how much free will the person has. A person cannot by nature love someone who is their enemy, muchless God who is the greater and most vicious and fearsome of enemies. The only way a person can love God eventhough they are sinful and have a sin nature, is if God changes the persons heart. God himself proclaimed, "I will take away your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh"

It is God who changes the heart of human beings, sinful human beings so that they can see his Glory and his Holiness, thereby repenting and and love him.

Its scary, but its the most safest insurance a person can have, in that if they sincerely repent of their sins, they know it was of God via the conviction and the working of the Holy Spirit. And since this repentence is sincere, they are eternally saved and given a new heart, a new attitude, thus obedience and abiding by God's laws and statues are automatic.

[LisaAnn]

I beg to differ ;) . I know that works wont get you into heaven. But, if I knowingly sin I ask forgiveness. I also repent for it and apologize to my Lord. I apologize because if for no other reason it is polite :D . If I wrong my hubby I appologize to him......does my Savior deserve any less? We are told throughout the Gospels to repent for our sins. Matt. 5:48 tells us "Be ye perfect even as your Father is perfect". Of course we will never be perfect until we get to heaven but we are to strive to perfection. And Galations 5:21 is pretty clear that those that still partake of a sinful lifestyle are not going to inherit heaven. The OSAS is a danger because dispite what you want to believe it does get the message across that you can still knowling sin and enter into heaven. I know the more rightous christians do not support this but there are many many right now that are doomed to hell because of it. And no one but God can decide if a person is saved or not so the argument that they 'arent really saved' doesent work. In fact that flies in the face of the OSAS teaching. Because the premise is just faith, well, there are alot out there that have faith in Jesus and have faith they are going to heaven and will be surprised on that Day. If, when I get to heaven, I find out my beliefs are wrong, I havent lost anything. I have lived a pure life and will spend eternity with my Father either way. If a OSAS who didnt live a pure life but still believes that their faith will carry them through, finds out when they get to heaven that they were wrong......they have lost it all. The doctrine of OSAS sound great and it will be wonderful if it is true. But I will not risk my salvation on a 'feel good' doctrine.

I know this isnt a popular doctrine that I believe in but I feel that the scriptures give good evidence to support the fact that you can lose your salvation. I will bow out now because I do not want to stir up dissent with my brothers and sisters. But I wanted to put the OSNAS .02 in for all those who read here but dont post. I dont want anyone to see hell because of a grey area in doctrine.

[LisaAnn]

Oops!! Just one more thing....

Amen PacificRed!!! :)

[tenor]

PacificRedd,

I believe I'm with you on this one. Do I believe you can "lose you salvation"? no but you can turn from God and living away from God can bring you to a point where you "give it back" or decide to refuse it. does committing a sin make me lost? no. no more than puting out a fire with a bucket of water makes me a fireman. If I sin and don't care, or think it doesn't matter because I'm "saved" that is a different matter all together. "Ye shall know them by their fruits" that is not just recognizing christians, it's also recognizing those who are lost as well as those who are living "of" the world instead of "in"it. For a christian to sin and have no guilt about it and no desire to be "right with God" is a very powerful indicator Of their relationship with Christ. To say that because I sin, I've lost my faith makes one fee like they are walking on a tight rope. the path is narrow but God's gift of grace is a far stronger than any sin(save denying Christ).I could ever commit. This is not Carte Blanche for sinning, this the belief that because I go over the speed limit,( which many consider a sin) could mean that i lose my salvation. My God's grace is so much more than that.

This is a good thread though. I like it. Good discussion


Tenor
:)

[dusty]

What is it that makes one "more righteous" than another when all saints have been given the righteousness of Christ thru His indwelling Life?
:)

[circumcision]

Does anyone have any Biblical examples of a saved person losing their salvation? My contention is that saved people wouldn't and don’t act this way as far as unrepentant sin is concerned. I would seriously question what someone that acted this way thought they received because it isn’t Bible salvation. I see plenty of examples of people thinking they are saved or acting saved then leaving. Judas for one. I see examples to beware of wolves in sheep clothing, even within the church.
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
This verse to me says it all. “for if they had (past tense indicating they never were) been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us….” How can this statement be true if there was one person that was saved. This sentence says if they were truly saved they wouldn’t have left.
Does anyone have an example from the Bible of someone losing their salvation? There seem to be examples of people that were never saved to begin with but no examples of people that were saved one second and lost the next.

[cindyw]

Any takers on what exactly Lk. 14:26-35 means? Thank you. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy

[paw]

Hi LisaAnn,

At the end of your post you quote Philippians 4:5-7. If you back up to 1:6 it reads: "Being confident in this, that he(Christ) who began a good work (salvation) in you will carry it out to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."

First it says to be CONFIDENT. Be confident in what? To be confident that He will bring to completion the salvation in you that He started.

Our salvation does not depend on our ability to maintain it. It is God's faithfulness to His Son Jesus that maintains it. 1 Corinthians 1:4-9 says that He will keep us strong to the end. How can you make it any clearer than that?

Blessings,
Pat

[theTruth]

Originally posted by Slippery

I would agree with you, but of what good is "Freewill", when you are born into sin and have a sin nature?
Because God gave you freewill to choose His Son or reject Him.
All have been given the choice of remaning in sin or changing.

Freewill is of no use to anyone or anybody whose nature and moral compass is in the direction of sin.
Muchless when the person is limited and sinful.
And each person has a conscience that God gave them to know the difference between what is good and bad. Sinful or not sinful.

A sinful person cannot choose to love the beautiful, all eternal, HOLY and gracious GOD, knowing fully well that this God hates sin and judges sin.
No a sinful person cannot see God.
One has to CHOOSE to repent and turn from sin before He is revealed in full.

Repentance is the key to salvation.
The Law is the golden key that opens the pathway twords God.

This is illogical, and no matter how much free will the person has. Only sounds illogical. But when applied to Gods purpose it is completely logical.

I see both freewill and predestination. He predestines those that CHOOSE.

A person cannot by nature love someone who is their enemy, muchless God who is the greater and most vicious and fearsome of enemies. No we cannot love someone we dont understand. People that see God as vicious, misunderstand God. Is God to be feared? Yes. But not because He is evil, but because He is completely righteous and just.

The only way a person can love God eventhough they are sinful and have a sin nature, is if God changes the persons heart. God himself proclaimed, [b]"I will take away your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh"
Yes if we ALLOW Him to do so. He cannot change anyone who has no faith.

It is God who changes the heart of human beings, sinful human beings so that they can see his Glory and his Holiness, thereby repenting and and love him.
Yes. But the human being has to ALLOW this change to happen. God will not force this on anyone.

Its scary, but its the most safest insurance a person can have, in that if they sincerely repent of their sins, they know it was of God via the conviction and the working of the Holy Spirit. And since this repentence is sincere, they are eternally saved and given a new heart, a new attitude, thus obedience and abiding by God's laws and statues are automatic.
True sorta.

Once the sinner repents and believes, the Spirit will enter and never leave. They are predestined to come to God, AFTER they make the choice to repent and believe. He will draw them to Himself.

If you keep on living a life of sin, you never really repented.
No matter what salvation one claims.

Do people fall away? Sure. Are they going to lose their salvation. No. You cant lose something you never had.

One cannot get "unsaved".

And you cannot give back the gift either. It looks like they gave it back, but they never really opened it.

[Sojourner]

At what point does the believer lose their salvation? Just how much sin is the breaking point? When does the Holy Spirit say that it is too much and leave the believer? Are there different levels of sin?

I was also wondering if the believer loses their salvation, or if God takes it away. Now if God takes it away, then it really wasn't a free gift in the first place, right? Who would give a gift to someone, and then take it away from them? If the believer loses salvation all on their own, then are they ever capable of finding it again? Can someone be saved, then unsaved, then saved, etc.? If that were the case then wouldn't the names in the Lambs Book of Life have to be written in pencil?

LisaAnn referred to the passage about Jesus saying "depart from me for I never knew you," (Matt. 7:21-23). I don't think He is addressing people who lost their salvation because they continued to sin and did not repent. The verse says nothing about people who said "did we not believe in you, did we not accept the gift of salvation?" What it does say is "Lord, Lord, have we not cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name," sounds to me like the people who believe that their works will get them into heaven. There are churches full of people who believe in God and Jesus, but they are not saved. They do all sorts of good things and are very proactive in the world. But they don't have a personal relationship with Jesus, they are not born again.

I believe that no one who is truly born again will ever lose their salvation. If someone has the Holy Spirit within them, they will be miserable when they sin, and the Holy Spirit will convict them and turn them to repentance. For some people, it may take awhile, and God will discipline them. I would go so far as to say that God may even take their life, because they do not repent.

[paw]

AMEN!! Well said Sojourner,

[Carolyn]

I agree, Well said Sojourner!

[dusty]

Adding my agreement -- Amen, Sojourner.


:)

[cindyw]

<<<<<I was also wondering if the believer loses their salvation, or if God takes it away. Now if God takes it away, then it really wasn't a free gift in the first place, right? Who would give a gift to someone, and then take it away from them? >>>>>


Sojourner, when you made this statement, this scripture came to mind: Mt. 18:26-27 (the Lord forgave the servant of his debt when he fell down and asked for mercy), then in verse 34 the Lord puts the debt BACK UPON the servant because of how the servant abused HIS MERCY.........I've always wondered about this passage. What you said above 'makes sense', but why is it that the Master of Mt. 18 gave a free gift---pardon from having to pay a debt----then when the servant proves merciless, He reinstitutes the debt and gives the servant over to tormentors? Blessings in Jesus, Cindy

[Sojourner]

Posted by cindyw
Sojourner, when you made this statement, this scripture came to mind: Mt. 18:26-27 (the Lord forgave the servant of his debt when he fell down and asked for mercy), then in verse 34 the Lord puts the debt BACK UPON the servant because of how the servant abused HIS MERCY.........I've always wondered about this passage. What you said above 'makes sense', but why is it that the Master of Mt. 18 gave a free gift---pardon from having to pay a debt----then when the servant proves merciless, He reinstitutes the debt and gives the servant over to tormentors? Blessings in Jesus, Cindy
That's a good question! After reading the Matthew 18:21-35 I have come up with a few thoughts. I believe this parabe has to do with forgiveness and how believers should forgive other believers just as God has forgiven them. First of all, in verse 21 Peter is asking Jesus "how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?" Then Jesus tells the story about the king and his servants.

I think that maybe the servants in this story are already saved. They are servants of the king (Jesus equates the setting with the kingdom of heaven), and the one servant has done something wrong. The king being filled with compassion forgives the servant and takes away the sin (or debt). Then that servant does not forgive another servant (or fellow believer), and does not show the same compassion that the king showed him. The king is angry with him and sends him away to be tortured until he can repay the debt. I think the king is discipling the servant (quite a severe discipline) for his wrong behavior. The king did not have the servant executed, or thrown out of the kingdom.

The most sobering verse in this entire passage is verse 35. "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses." This makes it clear that God will discipline believers when they sin. When we as believers do not forgive another believer when they have wronged us, God will likewise not forgive us. In Mark 11:26 is says "But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses."

[Carolyn]

Again, Amen Sojourner.

When I read your post this scripture came to mind.

1 Cor 5:5
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Yes, God's children can be punished even to destroying their flesh.

Those who refuse to repent can be punished by God's allowing Satan to destroy their flesh. But as the scripture says, short of losing salvation.

[cindyw]

<<<<<The king is angry with him and sends him away to be tortured until he can repay the debt>>>>>

Hi Sojourner,
That was a good post. My question though is: what is the debt that needs to be repayed by the servant? I understand that when we as believers choose to not forgive someone God will not accept our worship/prayers. I think the passage about us not coming to the altar with 'ought' against our brother until we have dealt with that, shows God's way concerning forgiveness/unforgiveness. I think that passage (Mt. 16)shows that we will not be given mercy while we remain unmerciless---we shall be in torment. What do you think? Blessings in Jesus, Cindy

[Sojourner]

Posted by cindyw
My question though is: what is the debt that needs to be repayed by the servant? I understand that when we as believers choose to not forgive someone God will not accept our worship/prayers. I think the passage about us not coming to the altar with 'ought' against our brother until we have dealt with that, shows God's way concerning forgiveness/unforgiveness. I think that passage (Mt. 16)shows that we will not be given mercy while we remain unmerciless---we shall be in torment.
I honestly don't know what the debt was that the servant owed. But I did notice there is a difference in what he owed at first, and what he owed in the end. In verse 25 it says that the servant owed a debt that "he was not able to pay". In verse 34 it says that the servant was given to the torturers until "he should pay all the was due to him." It doesn't talk about the original debt, it now talks about paying what was due to him. I think the servant would undergo severe discipline until he learned to be merciful to others as his king was merciful to him. I think you are right about God not giving us mercy when we refuse to give mercy to another. He will discipline us as this servant was disciplined by his master (hopefully not by torturers :sigh ).

[Brian.H]

Repent! - What does it mean?
http://www.gjcn.org/commentary/commentary.php?ID=6

So your telling everyone here that you have to repent everytime you sin or you do not go to Heaven? Then tell me this, Why did Jesus Christ die on the cross for our sins?

When Jesus was talking to unbelievers he them to repent. You have to know what repent means before you can read it in context. Repent means a change of mind, read http://www.gjcn.org/commentary/commentary.php?ID=6

The Bible was originally written in Hebrew in the Old Testament and Greek in the New Testament. To understand what repent means it is essential to refer to the original languages. The word repent is an old English word and was not found in the Bible until the King James version of the Bible was translated from the original texts in the year 1611. The word had a meaning to the people of that time but today it really has no meaning or common usage in our modern English.




Originally posted by savedandknowit
Brian.H
your understanding of how to be saved is false. Repentance is required for salvation.

Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mar 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Any message without the call to repentance is short of telling the requirements of salvation. Any message that suggests that repentance is not needed is a false message from a false teacher. http://www.gjcn.org/commentary/commentary.php?ID=6

[cindyw]

Repentance: metanoia (#3341, strong's)---compunction (for guilt, includ. reformation); by impl. reversal (of (another's) decision):-repentance


Yes, first we are called to repent (#3340, strong's) which does mean to change one's mind----think differently, reconsider, feel compunction

Once we have a change of mind, we need to reform our beliefs/behavior/speech etc to line up with God's Word. That is an expectation for a believer-----to walk worthy of the Lord who BOUGHT us, for we are not our own anymore. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy

[circumcision]

Hey Cindy

I believe Luke 14:26-35 is speaking of what I went through. In a nutshell I got wet once around the age of 13. For the next six years I tithed, witnessed, prayed, etc…. I did everything except truly seek a relationship with Jesus. That meant I didn’t read my Bible much either. I had an empty external profession of faith but didn’t really get saved. For six years I totally thought I was saved and never knew what it even meant. That six years I began laying a foundation (v. 29) on something other than Jesus. If it was Jesus it would have no doubt continued, not of my own strength because I sure can’t keep myself, but of His strength and grace. As it was the foundation was being built on something other than Him. It wasn’t until my freshman year of college that I began to truly pursue a relationship with Him. Over the course of a month I argued that I was saved, I got wet once, I gave a profession of faith. I never had a “turning away” so to speak. I lived a good Christian life externally that entire six years. I had to be saved right? Wrong. The foundation I was laying was built upon sinking sand. I finally gave up all and truly got saved. During that six years I had just enough religion to make myself luke warm but not enough to be saved. I didn’t have Christ and therefore I certainly had no fire. Looking back that is a very scary place to be because I really thought I was saved. It reminds me of Mat. 7:21Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' That was totally me, I never knew Him and I thought I did. I really thought that if I died I was going to heaven. I don’t know if that has happened to anyone else here but it is not a good place to be. It really is better to be hot or even cold. If you are cold at least you know you aren’t saved. I had no idea I wasn’t. The foundation I was building my tower upon was being built by myself. Once saved I realized that none of us have it within ourselves to finish the tower. However, Christ’s grace is sufficient for us all. I see in this parable a warning from attempting to follow Christ only halfway. It does not mean to discourage anyone from attempting to be a disciple. It is trying to make you realize what it takes to be a follower. Before I had Christ I wanted to make peace with my enemy. Now that I have Christ I am not afraid and don’t desire to make peace with the enemy (v. 31). If Christ is in you how can you want to make peace?
I think there are many in the church today that are like I once was. Last month in my church a man in his mid thirties got saved that had grown up going to church. He had continuously been in church his entire life, never had a “falling away” and he also thought he was saved. We all thought he was saved as well. He certainly seemed to have the external fruits. Imagine if this man would have decided to leave and never return. We all thought he was saved. He managed to more or less fake it for nearly thirty years. What would you say if he left? What do you say when they renounce their faith, as if they had any to begin with. It happens all the time, young and old, people fake it, or simply don’t know that they aren’t saved. If he would have left instead of getting saved I probably would have thought how can a saved person renounce their faith like that? How can someone be a Christian for nearly thirty years and decide they don’t believe anymore. Maybe, just maybe they weren’t saved to begin with. I spent six years that way and thought I was, my friend spent nearly thirty and thought he was. 1 John 2:19 “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.” Praise God my friend is now truly saved and is of us. I am sitting here writing this a month after this happened and it still blows my mind he could hear the message this long before getting saved. Luke warm is a scary place to be.

[PacificRedd]

if we repent and we don't mean it, we just do it to try and fool God, so you can get into Heaven without the work, thats not gonna work ... God knows better. You can repent 5 million times, and if you don't have any plans to change yourself after you repent, it was done falsely.

[cindyw]

Circumcision,
That was such a great testimony/illustration of Lk.14. Personally, I believe that if one is truly saved there is a "counting of the cost" BEFORE one makes a decision for Christ. I was a REPROBATE before coming to Christ. When the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sin and then revealed God's mercy towards me in spite of myself, it was as if I KNEW I had to lay down my life from then on out. There was a decision to make. Of course living for Jesus is a day by day thing. Some days I don't do so well, others I willingly, joyfully submit to those things He is trying to do in me.

It seems to me and maybe this is just my own experience, but concerning the presentation of salvation, counting the cost is NEVER brought up. Jesus dying for one's sins and the fact if you die without Jesus you are hellbound is brought up, but not the laying down your life in obedience to Him. It's almost like there's a fear of telling someone just what is expected of them, for fear they will not want salvation. It is my belief that those who are truly hungry, come..........nothing will dissuade them once they see their true condition and the wonderful love of God extended to them......Just my thoughts and thanks for sharing your story. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy

[Carolyn]

circumcision,

I praise God that you did finally come to Christ! \0/

What is scary to me is thinking there are other's who are doing the same. I've shared before about how a guy in our church for several years, worked close with the pastor, they were friends, but he had never truely accepted Christ. It was a great surprise to all specially our pastor when he admitted he wasn't born-again and asked Jesus into his life.

These people who just talk the talk with out substance, (not having Jesus as their foundation) they never "Fall out of Grace" and become condemned. They are condemned already, never having come to Christ in the first place.

"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of
Isaiah:
"?You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

These people have no root or foundation. (Jesus)

And I agree Circumcision, it's a perfect example of being in the lukewarm state.

[ChasinAfterHim]

***** Five stars for Sojourner!! Especially on the "how much sin is too much?" Sin is Sin period. The word sin literally means "to miss the mark" So how many times do we get to miss before God says no more? I mess up all time, I don't know about you guys... I'm wondering if I'm getting close to alloted amount. :lol ok ok, so I'm being a bit silly. Anyhow I saw a good illustration once back in my youth-group days...When we accept Christ it's like we are standing next to him his arm around us, and ours around him... of course we will continue to sin (even as hard as we try not to) and sometimes that sin leads us to slip slowly away from being RIGHT next to God...(he illustrated by slowly pulling away from the other person so that now they were holding each other by the elbows) sometimes that sin drags us further and further (he slowly kept stepping to the side until finally only him and the other persons finger tips were touching) Althought we can be far off from walking with God the HS is a part of us, and that is as far as we can get...far...but not severed. Of course, that is not the ideal place to be, hardly touching the fingertips of the One who saved you. But there is always the option in making that relationship solid and close again through forgiveness. I don't know how to reiterate it effectively, and maybe that was a dumb example, my youth-pastor communicated it much more effectively. But, I suppose it's not something you have to worry about if you're walking with God...and so I desire to walk with Him. Once saved always saved IMHO.

YSIC,
Michelle

[David Mark]

a

[dusty]

Hi David,

This question, and others, seem to be continually ignored or passed off as something that man can never know. I think it's just one of many points where that teaching breaks down. To try to answer what is the point of loss of salvation, a contradiction arises of what's claimed to be true. When rightly dividing the word, one would either have to deny the finished once for all work of Christ on the cross, or deny the law's ministration of death which would be immediate due to only one sin being held to our account and in need of more forgiveness.




:)

[David Mark]

a

[dusty]

I agree.
I found that sometimes the answer we want doesn't exist when held to the light of the word rightly divided.
That's one of the wonderful things about God's word, we don't ever have to fear looking into everything in it, from every angle because truth is truth no matter how closely inspected.

Blessings in your search, brother.


:)

[Carolyn]

I agree with both of you Dusty and Dave.

:D

[David Mark]

a

[PacificRedd]

Last night I was talking to a friend and she was telling me about how she 'lost her salvation'. She walked away from God and followed her ways for a good period of time. She didn't pray or read God's word. She didn't love Him. She was against Him. She has now come back to Christ, praise the Lord, but if she had died during that time she would not have gone to Heaven. She knew the way, yet totally ignored it and God says if we do that, when we come to the gates of Heaven, He'll deny even knowing us. That hurts Christ more than it hurts us.

I think the main thing is to always live safe. Why risk losing your salvation, if you don't believe that that can happen, but if you believe it can happen, then you live safe. Better safe then sorry. I'm not letting any chance of me not being with God enter my life.

[dusty]

Good to see you, Carolyn. :)


The word says that if they went out from us it was because they never were of us, and that if one did lose their salvation, it's impossible for them to be saved again.

Are we to believe the testimony of men if their words or experiences or feelings do not line up with the truth of scripture?

The way I understand the scripture that speaks of God saying He never them, is that God will say to the professed (not the possessors of His Life) that He never knew them. Never meaning never.

If the concept of living safe were to really just be not living by faith believing the One in whom we've been forgiven, justified, sanctified and seated in heavenly places with, it is still a good thing to "live safe"? I think it boils down to do we live in fear, doubting His work and Life under the name of living safe, or do we enter God's rest thru the belief of the gospel message, where He can then begin to live His Life thru us? I think the main thing is to depend, walking by faith in the newness of His everlasting Life in us.

I used to also be one who believed that salvation could be lost. :)

[David Mark]

a

[Vickimac]

Just a thought to ponder. I always hear that a person can denounce God and walk away, thereby even though he WAS saved, he then becomes unsaved.

First, referring to Matthew, God says "I NEVER knew you". Not, I knew you and then I didn't. Never means never. How could that be if the person were truly saved at one point? Not possible. If God NEVER knew that person, that person was NEVER saved, in spite of what they may have thought. That person had an apostate "faith".

The whole basis of this subject boils down to one major question: Was the sacrifice of Jesus Christ SUFFICIENT ?

If you beleive it is, then why would the passages about works, be directed to those who TRULY belong to the Lord?

In Matthew, it even states that all these things will be done "in his name", the ones who will be turned away. Do you believe they had a saving faith and just messed up thier works? Or do you think they may have had apostate faith? Remember, he NEVER knew these people.

[Kat4Jesus]

Take a look at this:

http://www.yeshuatyisrael.com/eternal.htm

Be encouraged! Believers can know with absolute certainty their salvation is secured bythe faithfulness and power of God. This is one of the greatest truths taught in the Bible. It was the reason the apostle John wrote his first epistle: "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." (1 John 5:13) You can know you have eternal life when you believe the Word of God. "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned." (John 5:24).

The relationship God the Father has with His children is an eternal relationship. It is similar to the unchanging relationship we have with our physical parents. To all who have received the Messiah, "to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God -- children not born of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God." (John 1:12,13)

Most people go through life hoping they will go to heaven when they die. They hope, after living a good enough life, they will receive favor from God and a place in His Kingdom. Many church goers believe they receive salvation through water baptism, but they can lose it by committing sins, backsliding or falling away from the faith. the believers, on the other hand, are not governed by reason, but by revelation -- the revelation of God's Word. Those who depend on their personal character, performing good works, or adhering to a religious system, realize the assurance of salvation is impossible. They will never know if they have ever done enough. It seems absurd to put your faith in what you can do instead of what God has done. When salvation depends on God there is no chance for failure. To propose that one could lose his salvation would attack the very nature and character of God, His glorious works, and His infallible Word. Those who believe God's word know that "salvation by grace" means everything depends upon the source of grace -- Yeshua the Messiah.

ASSURANCE THROUGH YESHUA
Believers are often accused of being self-righteous and boastful because they know for sure they are going to heaven. The accusers fail to understand it is not what man does for God that qualifies him for heaven, but what God has done for man. God made His holy and perfect Son become sin for us, so we could become the righteousness of God in the Messiah. "We have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Yeshua the Messiah, once for all... by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." (Hebrews 10:10,14) Yeshua made the decision He would rather go to hell for us than to go to heaven without us.

Can serious sin cause someone to lose their eternal life? We know that all sin is serious enough to separate us from God but believers have an advocate who has paid the price for all past and future sins. The apostle John encouraged believers not to sin, "but if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense -- Yeshua the Messiah, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins." (1 John 2:1-2) This comforting truth is also revealed in Hebrews 7:25: "He (Yeshua) is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them."

ASSURANCE THROUGH THE FATHER
Is it possible to turn your back on God and lose your salvation? Yeshua said no one has the power to do so. "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish...My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand." (John 10:28-29) The Father indeed has the power to assure the life Yeshua gives is everlasting, not temporal or perishable.

ASSURANCE THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT
Can a repentant sinner simply believe the Gospel and be assured of eternal life? The Apostle Paul makes it very clear: "You also were included in the Messiah when you heard the word of truth, the Gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance. (Ephesians 1:13-14)

ASSURANCE THROUGH GOD'S PROMISE
The gift of salvation is secured forever by the faithfulness of God. He promises never to take back the gifts He has given. "God's gifts and His call are irrevocable." (Romans 11:29) His "promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed" to those who have the faith. (Romans 4:16) "And if by grace, then it is no longer by works, if it were, grace would no longer be grace" (Romans 11:6). Paul is making it crystal clear that salvation can only be assured when a repentant sinner receives it as a gift of God's grace. Anyone who believes salvation can be earned nullifies God's grace and His promises that come with it. Whenever man is involved in attaining and preserving salvation there can be no assurance.

For some this may be your first exposure to the great biblical truth of eternal security. You may now want to know how you can be certain of your salvation. Simply put aside any teaching, experience or feeling that opposes the Word of God. You will never have the subjective feeling of assurance until you comprehend and believe the objective truth of the gospel. Once you do you will be more certain of living eternally in heaven than one more day on earth.

Romans 11:29 "For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable."

John 6:37 "The one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out."

To understand our eternal security in the Messiah it is essential to correctly understand salvation itself. Eternal Life is a free gift. We did not earn it by our merit; we cannot lose it by demerit.

(John 3:16; Romans 3:24; Romans 4:4-5; Romans 6:23)

On the cross, Yeshua the Messiah died and paid for all of our sins; past, present and future. (Isaiah 53:4-6, Isaiah 53:11; 2 Corinthians 5:21; John 19:30)
Eternal life is just that --- eternal. It can never cease or be interrupted in any way. (John 3:16 ; Hebrews 5:9; 1 John 5:11,13)
At the moment of salvation, we are imputed with the Righteousness of Yeshua the Messiah. That is His Righteousness is eternally deposited to our account with God. (Romans 4:3, Romans 4:22-24; 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Corinthians 1:30)
At the same time, all sins were blotted out and forgotten. This is called Expiation in theolgy. (Colossians 2:13, Colossians 2:14; Isaiah 1:18; Psalm 103:3; Hebrews 10:17)
When one believes in the Messiah as Savior, he is born from above, and created as a new spiritual creature. (John 3:6) 2 Corinthians 5:17; Titus 3:5)
In the instant of salvation, the Holy Spirit indwells the believer and seals him as the eternal possession of God. (Romans 8:9; Ephesians 4:30)
The believer is transferred out of the kingdom of Satan into the kingdom of Yeshua the Messiah. (Colossians 1:13,14)
God sees every believer as already resurrected, glorified and seated with Yeshua the Messiah in heaven. (Ephesians 2:4-7; Colossians 2:8-13, Colossians 3:1-4; Romans 8:28-30)
Yeshua the Messiah personally guarantees the eternal security of the believer, holding us by His power. (John 10:28, 29; 1 Peter 1:5)
All sin in the life of the believer results in broken fellowship with God, (1 John 1:6,7) Divine discipline, (Hebrews 12:5-11) and loss of eternal reward (1 Corinthians 3:10-15) but not loss of salvation. We are restored to fellowship by confession and correction.
(1 John 1:7-9)
If a believer sins persistently, discipline will intensify to the point of death, but his salvation is secure. (1 Corinthians 5:1-5; 1 John 5:16)



Can a believer ever lose his salvation?

Can someone who has truly been saved ever be lost?

What saith the scriptures?

Salvation is BELIEVING in Yeshua the Messiah!

Salvation is trusting or believing in, by faith, that Yeshua the Messiah paid for your sins with His blood on the cross of Calvary.
"He that BELIEVETH on the Son hath everlasting life:. . ." John 3:36
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16
We are NOT saved by WORKS!
The Bible makes it clear that OUR WORKS has nothing whatsoever to do with our salvation.
We don't receive it by our works - and we don't keep it by our works!
" NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,. . ." Titus 3:5
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9
Salvation is a FREE GIFT!
Salvation is the free gift of God. If we had to work to keep it - it would not be a free gift and God would be a liar!
". . . the GIFT of God is eternal life through Yeshua the Messiah our Lord." Romans 6:23
". . .by the righteousness of one THE FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life." Romans 5:18
Salvation is a NEW BIRTH!
Salvation is not enduring or a process, but an event in time. Salvation is a NEW BIRTH.
Just as your first birth happened on a certain time and day, so does the second birth.
"(For he saith, I have heard thee in a TIME accepted, and in THE DAY OF SALVATION have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted TIME; behold, now is THE DAY OF SALVATION.)" 2 Corinthians 6:2
"Yeshua answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3
"Being BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." 1 Peter 1:23
You become a CHILD OF GOD!
Once you are born again SPIRITUALLY - you become a child of God.
"Beloved, NOW are we the SONS OF GOD, . . ." 1 John 3:2
"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of ADOPTION, whereby we cry, Abba, FATHER." Romans 8:15
Nothing can SEPARATE us from our Father!
Just as nothing can "negate" your physical birth, nothing can "negate" your spiritual birth.
My children will always be my children. We may have troubled times. Our fellowship may be broken, but our relationship can never be broken. They will always be my children. Nothing or nobody can change that! And once you are born again spiritually - God becomes your Father - nothing or nobody can change that! Your fellowship may be broken, but your relationship can never be broken!
"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers,nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, SHALL BE ABLE TO SEPARATE US from the love of God, which is in the Messiah Yeshua our Lord." Romans 8:38
"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:29
Yeshua will NEVER leave us!
Yeshua promised He will never leave us. Yeshua could not say this if there was even a chance of losing our salvation.
". . .for he hath said, I WILL NEVER LEAVE THEE, nor forsake thee." Hebrews 13:5
". . . and, lo, I am with you ALWAY, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matthew 28:20
We already HAVE eternal life!
When the Bible speaks of possessing eternal life, it speaks in the present tense (hath, have, etc.) -SOMETHING WE ALREADY HAVE! If we had to work or endure to keep our salvation, this could not be true.
"He that believeth on the Son HATH EVERLASTING LIFE:.. ." John 3:36
"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE,. . ." 1 John 5:13
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE,. . ." John 5:24
Yeshua will NOT cast you out!
". . . him that cometh to me I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT." John 6:37
We are COMPLETE in Yeshua the Messiah!
"And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power:" Colossians 2:10
We are PERFECTED FOR EVER!
We are "perfected for ever" by Yeshua the Messiah. How could the Lord say such a bold statement if we had to earn or keep our salvation?
"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Yeshua the Messiah ONCE FOR ALL. . . For by one offering he hath PERFECTED FOR EVER them that are sanctified." Hebrews 10:10,14
We are PRESERVED in the Messiah Yeshua!
"Jude, the servant of Yeshua the Messiah, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED IN Yeshua the Messiah, and called:" Jude 1
"And THE LORD. . . WILL PRESERVE ME unto his heavenly kingdom:. . ." 2 Timothy4:18
We are KEPT by the POWER of God!
"Who are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:5
"Now unto him that is able TO KEEP YOU from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy," Jude 24
We are saved to the UTTERMOST!
"Wherefore he is able also to save them to the UTTERMOST that come unto God by him,. .." Hebrews 7:25
We are SEALED until the day of redemption!
"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby YE ARE SEALED unto the day of redemption." Ephesians 4:30
". . .after that ye believed, YE WERE SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise," Ephesians 1:13
What about the BACKSLIDER?
What about the "backslider" or somebody that forsakes the Lord? The Bible says he will suffer loss (rewards, etc.) - but he himself shall be saved! "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Yeshua the Messiah. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire." -- 1 Corinthians 3:11-15
We become the BODY OF the Messiah!
"For we are MEMBERS OF HIS BODY, of his flesh, and of his bones." Ephesians 5:30
"Now ye are the BODY OF the Messiah, and members in particular." 1 Corinthians 12:18
What if we later - BELIEVE NOT?
Our salvation is so secure - even if we BELIEVE NOT after we're saved, because we become part of Him (the body of the Messiah), ". . .yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF."
"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF." 2 Timothy 2:13
But what if I sin an awful sin?
1 Corinthians 5 reports of an awful sin in the church. And even though Paul commands ". . To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh" - Paul still speaks of that person being saved - ". . .that the spirit MAY BE SAVED. . ."
"It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. . .To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit MAY BE SAVED in the day of the Lord Yeshua." 1 Corinthians 5:1,5
To lose your salvation - makes God a LIAR!
With all the PROMISES from God to KEEP you, to SAVE you, to PRESERVE you - to even suggest you could lose your salvation - is to call God a LIAR! ". . .he that BELIEVETH NOT GOD hath made him a LIAR; . . ." 1 John 5:10

Why do people doubt their salvation?

They trust in feelings rather than the word of God.

"He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool:. . ." Proverbs 28:26

They are confused by the simplicity of salvation.

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from THE SIMPLICITY that is in the Messiah." 2 Corinthians 11:3

They trust in tradition or church teachings rather than the word of God.

"Making the word of God of none effect through your TRADITION,. . ."Mark 7:13

They trust in their own righteousness.

". . . and all OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSES are as filthy rags;. . ." -- Isaiah 64:6

They have NEVER been saved.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;. . ." Matthew 7:21

HAVE YOU EVER BEEN SAVED?
Is there a time and place in your life, when you trusted in the blood of Yeshua theMessiah? Not joined a church, not kept the sacraments, not baptism, not good works - but simply, by faith, prayed and asked Yeshua the Messiah to save you?

To die without Yeshua the Messiah will be the worst thing you could ever do.

To believe in Yeshua is the most Jewish thing you could do!

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE." Revelation 20:15



******************************

What great hope this gives to us!

I am not putting this here to argue or start a war of words. This is just my personal understanding of the OSAS question. Although I didn't right the above, I agree wholeheartedly.

[dusty]

Welcome to RR, KatBlough4Jesus. :) Glad you've joined in.

This topic will probably be discussed until we're all with Him, but I agree with you that understanding our security in Him gives us such a great hope.


:)

[Kat4Jesus]

Thanks Dusty! :D

Yes, I agree, it is one of those issues that will be a hot topic until He answers it for us!

Another hotly debated issue is whether we need to be baptized in order to be saved. I have seen that one go round and round.

Although by heritage I am a "gentile" that has been grafted into the vine, I truly believe, through years of study, that once the perspective of the reader is that of a Jewish mindset, the scriptures truly come to life and make much more sense.

Again, that is just my two cents worth!

[dusty]

:lol Boy are you right, baptism, and others, are topics with as much, if not more, discussion as this one.

It does seem that coming to terms with the who's, what's, where's, why's and when's is of such great help in rightly dividing the word.

Something that that I've found to be true is that if the basic issues of the finality of the cross and the reality of His resurrected Life indwelling in settled in one's mind, so many other questions and issues are rapidly cleared up.



:)

[PacificRedd]

It's okay that some of you believe OSAS, but IMHO thats not true. Thats me. What Christ did on the cross was sufficient ... and I can see your point VickiMac ... it might also mean that if we walk away He acts as if He never knew us because if we knew Him and then walked away, we are spitting in His face. We know exactly what we are doing. If we go against Him we aren't still going to Heaven, I can assure you if you knew Christ and walked away and denied Him, your judgement is not going to be pretty.

[Vickimac]

Hi PR :)

I don't see where God has to "act" like anything. I think he's incapable of acting. :lol He's not superficial. The scripture says he never knew them, and IMO, that's literally what it means.

It's ok if you believe OSNAS, but I'm glad that I am assured that God always remains faithful. As I've stated elsewhere, I spent 3 yrs being angry with him, not departing or denouncing, but all out ignoring and he wouldn't 'leave me alone'. It was only looking back later that I realized just how faithful he was through that time and how he taught me a valuable lesson~ to never ignore him again. It's a miserable place to be! :D

[paw]

Hi Pacific Red,

I don't know if this issue will ever be settled. It seems that once we get a mindset of what the scriptures say that it will take a miracle to change what we believe to be true.

I'm led to 1 Corinthians 1:8. It says that it's the faithfulness of God who calls us into the fellowship if His Son. He knows that since God had gone to such tremendous cost to make us sharers in the life of Jesus. He would never let us slip out of His hand. In verse 6 it says that God will keep us strong to the end. In other words we can't maintain our salvation, only God can. He won't allow us to walk away or turn back to unbelief.

1Peter 1:3-5 says almost the same thing. In short it says that when we are born again we receive an inheritance that can NEVER perish, spoil or fade and through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last days.

There seems to be 3 tenses of salvation:
1. We were saved from the penalty of sin at the moment of salvation. (Eph 2:8)

2. We are saved daily from the power of sin as we allow the savior to live His life in us (Rom 5:10)

3. We will be saved from the presence of sin at the time of the rapture(Heb. 9:28)

I've heard the same arguement over and over again that OSAS is a license to sin. On the contrary, being secure in Christ creates a love, reverence and desire to please God causing one to strive to live a holy life. To believe that we can walk away from God and be lost is to live a life of fear. I choose to live my life in the confidence that I am a child of God and and can never be separted from His love.

[Vickimac]

Amen paw :)

[PacificRedd]

Well we could debate this for four years and still be nowhere. We just have different beliefs on those things ... and that is ok. We aren't going to figure out if it is true or not ... and to be honest it doesn't really matter.

[David Mark]

a

[ChopinFan]

I guess this thread is eternally secure :lol

All jokes aside (cause this is a serious issue). It is my experience that both sides make valid points and usually are closer to agreement than they might think. For instance, I don't believe OSAS, but I doubt that most people who debate on behalf of it are grace abusers. I can tell this, because (in most cases) they have researched the topic and are well-versed on their position. Both sides are sincere in what they believe, and I think as long as love for lost souls (and for each other) is the primary motive for fueling this debate we'll be ok with it. It's when the debate degenerates into an insulting contest and Christians are accused of this, that, or the other when things become unproductive.