Hebrews 6:4-6

[Sojourner]

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentence, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

This verse is confusing to me. I believe that OSAS, however, what is this verse referring to? Are believers capable of renouncing their salvation and returning to their unsaved state? I always believed that people who claim to have been saved and then decided it wasn't for them, were not truly saved to begin with.

When it says "For it is impossible..." does that mean that it cannot happen, it is not possible, or does it mean that if you turn away from God and your salvation then is is not possible to ever be saved again?

[taiketsu]

Originally posted by Sojourner
I always believed that people who claim to have been saved and then decided it wasn't for them, were not truly saved to begin with.


Whenever I hear that something bad goes through my spine. I really, really, hate that belief.

[Becky]

Why? It seems logical.

[cindyw]

<<<<<<Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentence, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Sojourner<<<<<<When it says "For it is impossible..." does that mean that it cannot happen, it is not possible, or does it mean that if you turn away from God and your salvation then is is not possible to ever be saved again?

cindy<<<<Sojourner, IMHO that passage doesn't say that it's impossible for them to fall away, it says that if someone has tasted the heavenly gift and become partakers of the Holy spirit (born again), if they fall away, it would be impossible to renew them again to repentence, since the first sacrifice wasn't good enough for them, the Son would have to be crucified again----which would be a shame upon Christ. So renewing to repentence is the impossible part.

My husband and I were talking about this passage last night and we both came to the conclusion that someone would have to be born again, then fall away through becoming a reprobate(utter rebellion and rejection of the working of the Holy Spirit). This is not just a 'sin' issue as we both don't believe you can lose your salvation because you committed a sin. This has to be a turning from God and His working in your life which is from continual sin and rejection of repentence, thus leading to hardheartedness and final rejection of the Holy Spirit. This is not a case of "oops, I sinned" or having a battle of flesh over spirit----with the flesh seeming to win. This is a case of a person coming to a point where they totally reject God and there is no air of repentence/struggle. There are many who I'm sure will disagree with me, but that is my take on this passage. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy

[skypair]

Sojourner,

First take the context of the message - "let us go on unto perfection:not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith towards God." 6:1

These Hebrews did not believe OSAS - they were thinking they had to be saved again whenever their sin got the best of them. It's a good reaction to want to repent but it is impossible to be saved again! This is what puts Christ to an open shame - that we do again the first works of salvation. It's like how many times can a man marry the same girl again? It's is foolishness!

"But brethren, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation..." 6:9 This is pressing towards that "high mark and calling." This is "going onto perfection."

maranatha,
skypair

[Sojourner]

Thanks skypair for your explanation of these verses. Now it all makes sense! It's not about renouncing your salvation, but about a salvation that is secure and not subject to our sinful behavior. I know that when I was younger I would occasionally "re-accept" Jesus into my heart, just wanted to make sure of my salvation. It's also a tempting thing to do whenever a revival takes place (I used to live in the South ;) ).

[skypair]

Sojourner,

I went through the same experience once. Our church was holding revival and the emphasis was, if you are a believer, why do you continue in sin. Very convicting! I prayed privately just to reaffirm my own belief!

God bless you your honesty and your good testimony!

maranatha,
skypair

[MikeJ]

Sojourner,

This passage was written to Christians of the first century who had been Judaisers. Some were returning to the OT law of offering God animal sacrifices.

The writer of Hebrews was telling them they were making an extreme mockery of the Lord's ultimate Sacrifice.

Mike

[yankeedownsouth]

Originally posted by cindyw
<<<<<<Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentence, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Sojourner<<<<<<When it says "For it is impossible..." does that mean that it cannot happen, it is not possible, or does it mean that if you turn away from God and your salvation then is is not possible to ever be saved again?

cindy<<<<Sojourner, IMHO that passage doesn't say that it's impossible for them to fall away, it says that if someone has tasted the heavenly gift and become partakers of the Holy spirit (born again), if they fall away, it would be impossible to renew them again to repentence, since the first sacrifice wasn't good enough for them, the Son would have to be crucified again----which would be a shame upon Christ. So renewing to repentence is the impossible part.

My husband and I were talking about this passage last night and we both came to the conclusion that someone would have to be born again, then fall away through becoming a reprobate(utter rebellion and rejection of the working of the Holy Spirit). This is not just a 'sin' issue as we both don't believe you can lose your salvation because you committed a sin. This has to be a turning from God and His working in your life which is from continual sin and rejection of repentence, thus leading to hardheartedness and final rejection of the Holy Spirit. This is not a case of "oops, I sinned" or having a battle of flesh over spirit----with the flesh seeming to win. This is a case of a person coming to a point where they totally reject God and there is no air of repentence/struggle. There are many who I'm sure will disagree with me, but that is my take on this passage. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy


Cindy - This is what I believe also. This is based on personal experience of my husband. His brother, who was only 18 months younger, accepted Christ and was baptised at a young age. However, when he got to high school and college, he got mixed up in drugs and Satanism. He eventually killed himself in a Satanic ritual of some sort. He left a note blaming his mother and denouncing his Christian upbringing. Folks like this, I would say have lost their salvation.

[cindyw]

Dawn, that is so sad, I'm sorry for you all. I'm sure it must have been very painful for the family knowing the choices he made. I truly hope that on this point I am wrong in my understanding.......Blessings in Jesus, Cindy

[yankeedownsouth]

Thank you, Cindy. It was a difficult time. My husband's mother is a Christian, so she understands what her son's actions cost him. This happened a long time ago, right after my husband and I were married. I had only met his brother one time, and it was scary just being around him. You could FEEL what he was into. It was very sad.

[Carolyn]

Amen Skypair.

[Carolyn]

This passage was written to Christians of the first century who had been Judaisers. Some were returning to the OT law of offering God animal sacrifices.

It's hard to emagine how these people thought they needed to turn back to giving sacrifices of animals. :(
Jesus paid the price of sin once an for all, a one time eternal sacrifice.

[warbar]

This is from a Matthew Henry commentary on these verses:

"...the falling away here mentioned, is total apostasy from the christian faith...It is an open and avowed renunciation of Christ, arising from enmity of heart against him, his cause and people, by men approving in their minds the deeds of his murderers, and all this after they have received the knowledge of the truth, and tasted some of its comforts. This is the description of those, concerning whom it is said that it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance. And this, not because the blood of Christ is insufficient to obtain pardon for this sin, if applied to by faith and repentance, for we are assured by innumerable promises that God never refuses pardon to the greatest sinners upon their repentance, and faith in the atonement. But this is a wilful, voluntary, and deliberate apostasy, after having received the knowledge of the truth, arising from a rooted enmity to Christ and his cause. This in its very nature is opposite to repentance and every thing that leads to it."

[KevCornette]

Folks, imho it is not a matter of 'loosing your salvation' -- it is a matter of rejecting it. The same God who said that He would in no wise cast us out also said these words found in Hebrews 6.

However, a careful examination of this passage may bring a better understanding and some comfort to those who have experienced loss.

Consider this: this passage in Hebrews lists several things that indicate a level of spiritual maturity which most people never attain.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This passage indicates five things which show a deep level of maturity:

1. Those who were once enlightened. This indicates that the person Paul is describing has been enlightened. Later in Hebrews, he indicates that this means the person has understood the message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 10:32). There, the writer says that after we were enlightened, there was a great fight of affliction that tried to keep us from making the commitment to become a follower of Jesus. Anyone who is saved has progressed to this point -- they have been enlightened to understand their need for a saviour.

2. Those who have tasted of the heavenly Gift. The word used for gift here is 'dorea'. It is a gift that is given freely. In John 4:10, Jesus said that He was the Gift sent from heaven. IN Romans 5:15, salvation through grace is called 'the gift of grace. Romans 5:17 says this gift of grace produces righteousness. So then, after becoming enlightened by seeing our need for salvation through Jesus - the heavenly Gift of salvation is received and the person is saved. All true Christians have progressed through this point, too.

3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost. This indicates the next level of progression is to be a partaker of the Holy Ghost. I am not going to argue whether you believe the Baptism of the Holy Ghost is a valid experience for believers today, but suffice it to say that this phrase indicates that a person at a minimum is a 'friendly companion of the Holy Ghost'. The Septuagint says this - 'thy God has anointed thee with the oil of gladness above your companions..." (Psalm 45:7). Now we get to where the rubber meets the road. Even though many people have made a confession of faith, fewer of these people have gone on to become a friendly companion of the Holy Ghost. To be led by the Spirit of God. Walking in the Spirit of God so that we don't fulfill the lusts of the flesh... There are fewer believers that continue in this discipline.

4. These have tasted of the Good Word of God. This is yet another level of maturity. To follow on from being led by the Holy Spirit to studying, understanding and knowing the Word of God deletes more Christians from the level of maturity necessary to reject salvation once it has been received. The writer of Hebrews lays out a list of foundational doctrines which we should all understand fully. Most don't. This list includes:

1. Repentance from dead works.
2. Faith towards God
3. The doctrine of Baptisms (plural)
4. Laying on of Hands
5. The Resurrection of the Dead
6. Eternal Judgment.

Until someone has a working knowledge of these doctrines (at a minimum), they would not have the maturity to make any decision regarding rejecting their salvation.

5. They have experienced the power of the coming Kingdom of God. This final level of maturity removes even more Christians from the list of those who could reject salvation, once they are saved. The word translated power is 'dunamis'... it is where we derive the words 'dynamo' (a device which produces power) and 'dynamite' (a device which displays power). The Bauer Greek-English Lexicon says that this word means "[i]power, strength, acts of power, supernatural strength or power, the Power of God, the power to perform miracles'. Unless a Christian has seen the mighty power of God working in and through their lives, through miracles or acts of supernatural power, they are not mature enough to make a decision regarding rejecting their salvation.
- - - - -
In my opinion, Paul made this list for two reasons. First of all, as a warning to those who are mature in the LORD. Do not get haughty, you see God working in your life, but remember that it is God. He enlightened you, He saved you, He talks with you and guides you, He teaches you the Word, He is the source of the power... you are not. When you get to the point that you believe YOU are the power and teacher and saviour and Holy Spirit to others, you are heading for a fall. And this fall may bring you to the point that you would reject your Salvation.

The second reason Paul made this list is to comfort those who have felt like giving up. To comfort those who have lost family members and friends who have seemed to reject God at the end. He is saying here -- were they mature? Did they really know the Word of God? Did they see the Power of the LORD working in their lives? If not, then they couldn't have rejected the LORD, they weren't old enough, spiritually.

As a parent, I have a bit of understanding of how this would work, I believe. If my daughter came to me when she was 5 years old (especially right after being spanked) and said 'I hate you daddy'... it would have NO meaning or bearing on our relationship. She is 5 years old. She has NO understanding of the gravity of those words! If she came when she was 11 -- it may take longer to win her back, but it would do nothing to me and never lessen the love I have for my little girl. However, if she was 35 years old, and said 'I hate you daddy." It would change our relationship. We would be estranged and alienated from one another. That is the essence of loosing your salvation -- to return to the place where you are alienated from the hope of God.

One last thing:

Consider that there were 500 people that saw Jesus with their own eyes before He ascended into heaven (I Corinthians 15:6).

But there were only 120 who were there only one week later at Pentecost (Acts 1:15).

Then there were only 70 who went out to carry the Gospel of the Kingdom throughout Israel (Luke 10:1).

There were only 12 to whom the Parables and Word were revealed (Mark 4:10-11).

However, there were only 3 who were known as Jesus' closest friends, and were His companions through thick and thin and saw the LORD in all His glory -- Peter James and John (Matthew 17:1, see also Mark 5:37, Mark 14:33, and Luke 8:51)!
- - - - - - - - - - -
I hope this brings comfort and understanding to this seemingly difficult passage from the Letter to the Messianic Jews (Hebrews).

[Shyguy]

Bump ... an Excellent post by Kev everyone should read.

[Patty T]

Yes, Ken's post was very, very good.

From a personal standpoint, I'll just add when I was saved in 1985, I did not walk with the Lord very long. In fact, I went to my mom and told her I could not do this "religious" thing. I was not ready. So I stopped going to church and let my relationship with the Lord slack. But you know, God in His faithfulnes, never let go of me. The Holy Spirit never stopped tugging on my heart. I lived that way for almost 15 years. Finally I told my husband, we've got to get back to church and I recommitted my life to Jesus in Sept of 1999.

I believe once you make a commitment to Christ (sincere from the heart), that He'll never let you go. And I am so very, very greatful for that. I love the Lord with all my heart, mind and soul.


Patty

[pilgrimian]

Here's my understanding of it:

Hebrews 6 (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?postid=960785#post960785)

Godspeed,
Your brother in Messiah,
Matthew

[DJHere]

Originally posted by pilgrimian
Here's my understanding of it:

Hebrews 6 (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?postid=960785#post960785)

Godspeed,
Your brother in Messiah,
Matthew

I was just going to retreive that very post. Thanks for posting the link I think it will answer a lot of questions.

[ChopinFan]

To maintain one's OSAS theology, this passage must be twisted more than a pretzel. The clear, literal interpretation of this passage in context, harmony, and flow shows that it is possible for a believer to fall away.

To anyone reading it (Christ taught so that even a child could understand), the implication is obvious. But because of affinity for a particular doctrine ;): .......some are forced to complicate this passage far from the author's intent.

I notice this a lot with my OSAS friends. I constantly hear statements like "I believe OSAS, but the bible seems to be saying ......."

Why do you think the bible seems to be saying something different than what you've always been taught? Could it be that what you read and understood from reading the bible doesn't quite line up with what you've been taught (by your church, seminary professors, et al), and are therefore trying to force the scriptures to say something that they aren't?

I don't like to talk in seminary jargon, but this is a classic example of "eisegesis"

eisegesis

n : personal interpretation of a text (especially of the Bible) using your own ideas

This in layman's terms is "reading into" the passage or trying to force your interpretation into the passage.

Now, contrast that with exegesis:

exegesis

n 1: an explanation or critical interpretation (especially of the Bible) 2: critical interpretation of a text (especially of the Bible)

[pilgrimian]

God bless ya, Henry...but this is not an example of eisegesis.

Also, I don't believe Hebrews can be likened to the way in which Christ taught as to children. The author of Hebrews talks about some pretty deep stuff...he's covering the meat of the word, not the milk of it. He calls these believers to press on to maturity.

There are five points given within Hebrews 6:1-8...and they show the Hebrews to which this epistle was written to be true believers, and for those who are true believers it is impossible for them to do something...what is impossible for them to do? It is impossible for them to fall away (6:6), or to give up, or to lose their salvation and then be saved again later. The reason this is impossible is because it would require a recrucifixion of Jesus. If that were to happen, it would put Him to open shame, for it would mean that His first death was insufficient to save to the uttermost, to save completely (Hebrews 7:25). His first death has provided a complete salvation and has saved the believer to the uttermost. It is impossible for those who have experienced these five spiritual privileges to lose their salvation and to be saved again later.

As much as I like pretzels...this Scripture isn't twisted as such (especially not when the context is understood including the state of the recipients, etc.).

By the way, Henry, congrats on the little one!!! I've been so busy as of late I didn't get a chance to send you a message...or did I? Congrats on being a daddy...twice over!?

Godspeed,
Your brother in Messiah,
Matthew

[Hully30]

To maintain one's OSAS theology, this passage must be twisted more than a pretzel.

It seems very clear to me in a OSAS perspective. In fact, it couldn't be clearer.

[Hootmon]

You have to pull verses 4 thru 6 out of context to prove OSnAS.

Makes much more sense if you read 1 thru 8 as one piece.

[ChopinFan]

Originally posted by Hootmon
You have to pull verses 4 thru 6 out of context to prove OSnAS.


Nonsense
:D:

If anything, when taken together in context, harmony, and flow, the OSnAS position is actually strengthened by including the previous and subsequent verses.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

It was not some "hyper-Hebraic" doctrine they were in danger of falling away from, it was the doctrine of Christ. The writer of Hebrews was telling them it was time to leave the elementary principles of the doctrine of Christ (not the Mosaic covenant).

In the previous chapter, the writer of Hebrews had scolded them, because by now they should have been teachers, not elementary school students.

[Hootmon]

I agree. Verses 1 through 8 talk about proceeding from Milk to Meat and not about losing ones salvation.

I will now return this discussion who know more about the details than I do.

[ChopinFan]

Originally posted by pilgrimian
God bless ya, Henry...but this is not an example of eisegesis.

I find it to be a classic one :P:

Also, I don't believe Hebrews can be likened to the way in which Christ taught as to children. The author of Hebrews talks about some pretty deep stuff...he's covering the meat of the word, not the milk of it. He calls these believers to press on to maturity.

Ok, you do have a valid point about the book of Hebrews touching on deep matters, but it's not nearly as confusing as what OSAS tries to make it.....JMHO


There are five points given within Hebrews 6:1-8...and they show the Hebrews to which this epistle was written to be true believers, and for those who are true believers it is impossible for them to do something...what is impossible for them to do? It is impossible for them to fall away (6:6), or to give up, or to lose their salvation and then be saved again later.

Ok, hold on to your hat Matthew- I agree with the above statement.......but with differences of course.

I don't believe in "re-saving" (so to speak), so my take is a little different then classical Arminianism. I believe that every sinning believer will be chastened by the Father, extended space to repent, and granted mercy and grace if repentant. This warning in Hebrews is for those who are completely hardened and become apostate. Notice the progression of events.....enlightened, AND tasted, AND partaken, etc. For a person who has experienced all of these things and become apostate, there is no more sacrifice for this individual but a fearful looking for of judgement. It is possible for a believer to fall away, and the results are fearful and devastating.

The reason this is impossible is because it would require a recrucifixion of Jesus. If that were to happen, it would put Him to open shame, for it would mean that His first death was insufficient to save to the uttermost, to save completely (Hebrews 7:25). His first death has provided a complete salvation and has saved the believer to the uttermost. It is impossible for those who have experienced these five spiritual privileges to lose their salvation and to be saved again later.

Again, I agree with your conclusion, but disagree with your premises. The bible DOES say it is possible to fall away, BUT for those who have experienced these five graces, there is no more place of repentance. That should make us all strive to live holy lives.

As much as I like pretzels...this Scripture isn't twisted as such (especially not when the context is understood including the state of the recipients, etc.).

I like pretzels too, but not as an exegetical snack, while I'm digesting the meat of the Word.

By the way, Henry, congrats on the little one!!! I've been so busy as of late I didn't get a chance to send you a message...or did I? Congrats on being a daddy...twice over!?

No, I didn't get your message, but thanks now ! She still isn't here yet, but should be today or tomorrow.

Your brother,
chopinfan

[pilgrimian]

Originally posted by ChopinFan
If anything, when taken together in context, harmony, and flow, the OSnAS position is actually strengthened by including the previous and subsequent verses.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

It was not some "hyper-Hebraic" doctrine they were in danger of falling away from, it was the doctrine of Christ. The writer of Hebrews was telling them it was time to leave the elementary principles of the doctrine of Christ (not the Mosaic covenant).

In the previous chapter, the writer of Hebrews had scolded them, because by now they should have been teachers, not elementary school students. [/B]

You may think it's "strengthened," but it isn't so. Not sure where you're going with the "hyper-Hebraic" and "Mosaic Covenant" bit. These were Jews who were thinking of returning to Judaism for a while...then returning to their belief in Christ. In context, the author of Hebrews says this isn't a choice.

They were still in the milk of the Word because they were living among Jews in Judaism still. They were still attending the synagogues (where, over time, rules were made to basically excommunicate believers in Yeshua). This all become quite clear when you look at the overall purpose of the Book of Hebrews.

Hebrews 13

13 So, let us go out to Him outside the camp, bearing His reproach.

[Shyguy]

Remind me never again to bump a thread on OSAS .....

I should have known it would spiral ...... :tape

[pilgrimian]

How is it beginning to "spiral"? Actually, of all the OSnAS folks I've corresponded with here at RR, Henry (Chopinfan) has been the most even-handed and respectful. No undue sarcasm, etc., just a good debate with a brother in the Lord.

On another thread I was actually sort of threatened I might be going to hell on account of my belief in Eternal Security. That was a bit out of bounds, I think. I certainly don't want this thread to "spiral."

Godspeed,
Matthew

[blitzkreig]

You guys still havin' a party? :D:

From John Gill's on Hebrews 6:

In this chapter the apostle exhorts the believing Hebrews not to rest in the rudiments of the Christian religion they had learned; and much less to lay them again in the foundation after the Jewish manner, of which he instances in six particulars; but to seek after a perfect knowledge of evangelic truths, which, under a divine permission, was his determination to do, Heb 6:1 which was the best method to prevent apostasy, he dissuades from; by giving the characters of apostates, showing how far they may go in the knowledge of divine things, and yet fall away; by asserting the impossibility of their repentance and recovery, with the reason of it, taken from the blackness of their crimes, Heb 6:4 and the difference between them, and true believers, he illustrates by two sorts of earth, the one takes in the rain that comes down from heaven, and brings forth herbs for the use of its dresser, and is blessed of God: such are true believers in Christ


The "difficulties" we have in Hebrews 6 in light of other scripture show a weakness in our use today in the English language because it would make more sence for us to state: "if it were possible for a person were to loose their salvation ... then etc.

It seems to me that a person can't lose it per se if they never had it...

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen...

Mat 15:13_
But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

[Shyguy]

How is it beginning to "spiral"?

Ok bad choice of words I admit ....

It was ment that there is a OSAS / OSnAS thread almost every week. Generally, always with the same arguements...


<Back to your regularly scheduled program>
:D:

[pilgrimian]

I know...it seems people like to talk about this issue, eh? And I think my stance on it is correct in light of the balance of Scripture. Because of the names written in the Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the world it certainly appears to me that God foreknew those who would be saved...therefore, He doesn't erase any believer's name from that book...and from Revelation 21:12, 15 we see that the non-believer's name was never written (therefore, never needed to be erased when they allegedly left their saved state).

Godspeed,
Matthew