Why does it say "born of water" in John 3?

[architectlink]

I found this in NIV and NKJV...does it mean that new Christians should be babtised?

John 3

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of WATER and the Spirit.

Any explanations or additional links are appreciated.

Have a blessed day!

[filosofer]

You will receive all kinds of responses, so I'll get started (with one that is not too popular around here).

-----

The Spirit and water refer to one thing - God works in and with the water to cause the person to be "born again" or "born above" (ANU in Greek can be translated either as "again" or "above").

Yes, in Baptism the Spirit and water are joined in this supernatural activity.

[skypair]

architect,

Water in this instance is your natural birth - the water of your mother's womb. The Spirit is the "born again" Spirit - the Holy Spirit.

maranatha,
skypair

[UncleJesse]

in this instance Jesus is talking to Nicodemus and in the beginning of the passage it bears out that Nicodemus was a leader of the Jews, Jesus says (KJV) Verily, Verily is say unto thee, Except a man Be Born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God,(V3) Then in Verse 4, Nicodemus brings up the idea of entering into his mothers womb a second time and Jesus puts it down in Verse 5 saying (Verily, Verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of Water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Ok here is where the controversy is some people like to say that being born of water is when you are born from your mothers womb, If that were so then everybody has already done that and therefore there would really be no reason for Jesus to mention it. (somebody correct me if i am totally off base) Nicodemus was a leader of the Jews, Jewish people at that time knew what Water baptism was, for instance John the Baptist, Was a Jew, He was a baptist, meaning that he Baptized people, and He baptized people unto repentance. Nicodemus being most likely knowing this didn't question being born of water any further what he didnt understand was the Being Born of the spirit, and that is what Jesus had to explain to him further, because at that time the Holy Ghost had not yet been poured out among all flesh and that would be the reason why it had to be explained.
Now for a question: If being born of Water is in fact being born out of a womans womb, If scientists ever figure out how to make a human being without using a woman to deliver it, or without it being brought out of a woman, would that child be unsavable because it was not actually born of water, by that deffintion? I know this question is far fetched but think about it.

[m0use]

but you dont need to be baptised to be saved right?

[Vickimac]

Originally posted by m0use
but you dont need to be baptised to be saved right?

You don't "need" to be water baptized to be saved. (If that were the case, it would surely be spoken of alot more than it is.) But the NT is very clear that it is the baptism of the HS that saves us and only Jesus can do that! No local minister, no amount of water, only by the grace of Jesus alone can we see heaven.

However, we "need" to follow through with water baptism because that is what we are instructed to do as Christians.

[filosofer]

Excep that there is no distinction between "water baptism" and "Spirit baptism" in Acts 16:31-34; Ephesians 4:4-6; and 1 Peter 3:21; Romans 6:1-6, etc. It is only someone adding that they are separate. And the Great Commission is more than just an obedience thing - "making disciples" (which is God's activity) is done by teaching the Word and by baptizing.

[Lordschild]

Thief on the cross.

[Vickimac]

Originally posted by filosofer
Excep that there is no distinction between "water baptism" and "Spirit baptism" in Acts 16:31-34; Ephesians 4:4-6; and 1 Peter 3:21; Romans 6:1-6, etc. It is only someone adding that they are separate. And the Great Commission is more than just an obedience thing - "making disciples" (which is God's activity) is done by teaching the Word and by baptizing.

Hi filosefer. I believe there is no "distinction" in every instance of speaking about baptism because we should know that it is spiritual baptism that saves us, that water baptism can not do that on it's own. But spiritual baptism can, or the theif on the cross would not have seen paradise.

Acts 16:31 specifically states "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved". (Not.... and be baptised in water). Yes, they followed through with baptism, as we all should, but what does this passage specifically say it is that SAVES us? It does look like 2 separate things. First, Believe and they heard the word of the Lord. THEN they were baptised.

Of course I believe the ONE baptism spoken of in Ephesians is the one that saves, the spiritual baptism. Anybody can dunk in water and have words said, (are they "saved"?) but it is only the baptism and the indwelling of the HS through faith in Jesus Christ that can save us.

1 Peter seems to be the best argument, because it does say in 3:20 that 8 people were saved by water. The NIV says "through" water. Water was used to destroy the people of Noahs day. But he and his family were saved "by" "through" the water. 21~ I believe speaks of the spiritual baptism also simply because it is the spiritual baptism that saves us, not a water one.

Romans 6 explains what spiritual baptism entails. We were baptised unto his death and we are made new and raised up with him, walking in the newness of life, dying to sin. Romans is especially heavy in the theme of salvation by faith alone.

Back to John 3. Nicodemus was puzzled by Jesus saying we have to be born again. He asked how that is possible, we can not go back to the womb. So Jesus says, "Unless a man be born of water AND of the Spirit, he cannot see the kingdom of God. We do have a first birth, a water birth of the womb. But unless we are born of the Spirit, a second birth, we can't see the kingdom. How is this "adding" to his words? Without the first birth, there can be no second birth and I think he was trying to explain this.

I think the word is very clear that there is a second birth. The very next thing that Jesus said is 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh IS flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit IS Spirit." We are born of the flesh, clearly a birth by water. But we have to be born again of the Spirit.

I'm no advocate against water baptism. If it was not important, it would have had no part in the word. But it did and it does. It is a public profession and simulation of dying to our old self and being reborn of the Spirit. It is part of "confessing with thy mouth". But there is no water that is holy enough to save us. Only Jesus can do that by indwelling us with his spirit. And I wouldn't want anyone to think they can go to a preacher and be baptised and that's what it takes to be saved. Because the NT is clear, crystal clear that it is solely by the grace of Jesus Christ alone.

The theif on the cross did nothing but believe, at the very end of his life. And he was promised paradise. Why was this put into the gospel if water baptism is essential to salvation? Because as John 14:6 says, no one comes to the Father but by Jesus Christ. Alone. Period.

I have discussed this on here many times and the reason is because I feel so strongly that the message of grace stands alone. I agree with the doctrine of baptism unless and until it becomes "essential" to salvation. I see that as taking away from the doctrine of grace. It is something we do in obedience and nothing WE do saves us. It is what he did that saves us.

But please don't ever think I am saying not to be symbolically water baptised. I am saying that Spiritual baptism happens when we accept Jesus as our savior and it is His work alone that saves.

[warbar]

Here's some notes I got on baptism from:

www.1abba.org/NewsletterArticles/Mikvah.html

The mikvah pool (that's baptismal pool in Hebrew) represents both the grave and the womb. First the individual enters (symbolically) the world of the non-living - the grave - since he ceases to breathe under the water. Then he emerges from the womb, his soul having been saturated or overwhelmed by the Spirit of God, resurrected from the watery grave as God's new creation. The rabbi's say it's very much like a process of re-birth.
It is said that a seed must be planted in the ground or buried in death before it emerges in new life. When it appears, it is nothing like it's former state. It gradually grows and becomes the plant God intended it to be. So is the person who is immersed in the Mikvah. When the person emerges from the Mikvah waters of God's creation, he is a new creation - entering into an elevated state of life.

[Vickimac]

The web page also says that the Jews enter the mikvah pool several times in thier lives, even regularly before the sabbath, in anticipation of the Messiah coming. It speaks of thier beliefs that it puts them in an "elevated state". :confused

If having entered once has put one in an elevated state and made him a new creation, why the need to keep doing it?

Are we to be re-baptised regularly?

We need to be baptised of the Spirit. Once. Then we should be baptised in water to profess the change within us, the new birth.

At least, that's my understanding of it. :)

[filosofer]

But spiritual baptism can, or the theif on the cross would not have seen paradise.

The problem here is that the event concerning the thief on the cross happens before the Great Commission in Matthew 28.

[warbar]

Hi Vickimac!

I agree. The only reason they would repeat the exercise (just like their repeated sacrifices) was because it was a 'shadow' of what was to come - so they would recognize the One whose sacrifice would be 'once for all' and we'd be baptized into Him 'once for all'.

[Vickimac]

Yes, that was before the great commision. But the only requirement was that he believe. (Did that change?)

Acts 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen unto none of them: only they were baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17: THEN they laid thier hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

So then, the baptism they had already had did not receive unto them the Holy Spirit. Correct? But it appears that a spiritual baptism took place and the HS came upon them. Goes on in 19 that whomever I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.


Then again in Acts 19, Paul lays hands on the disciples that John the baptist had already baptised before the g.c. and THEN they received the Holy Spirit. They were told that Johns baptism had been a "baptism of repentence". But when Paul laid hands on them, then they were "baptised" with the Holy Spirit.

Does this laying on of hands mean water baptism? It doesn't say that. And I have to wonder why Jesus made the point to Nicodemus that there is a difference in flesh birth (or water birth) and Spirit birth. (If "someone is adding", isn't that someone Jesus himself?) But anyway, the point is not so much whether we receive that Holy Spirit (while in the act of water baptism), but that we have that Spiritual rebirth.

Or are you saying one cannot be born again without water baptism at all? Because I think John 3:16 and John 14:6 is explicitly clear on salvation.

Hi warbar:)

[architectlink]

Interesting! Thanks! I also just did a search on WATER, PLANT & SEED on www.biblegateway.com and found some interesting uses for water (water is mentioned over 600 times in the bible)

Watering, Working, Warning
6 I planted, Apollos WATERED, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.

Isaiah 55:10
"For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, And do not return there, But WATER the earth, And make it bring forth and bud, That it may give seed to the sower And bread to the eater,

Ezekiel 17:5
Then he took some of the seed of the land And planted it in a fertile field; He placed it by abundant WATERS And set it like a willow tree.

Numbers 24:7
He shall pour WATER from his buckets, And his seed shall be in many WATERS.

Jeremiah 17:8
For he shall be like a tree planted by the WATERS, Which spreads out its roots by the river, And will not fear, when heat comes; But its leaf will be green, And will not be anxious in the year of drought, Nor will cease from yielding fruit.

Deuteronomy 11:10
For the land which you go to possess is not like the land of Egypt from which you have come, where you sowed your seed and WATERED it by foot, as a vegetable garden;

[emmie]

Lordschild brought up the thief on the cross which is one of the most common examples given for salvation without water baptism. Now, I don't believe that one has to be baptised in order to be saved - it is the Jesus/baptism of the Holy Spirit that saves us. But I have always wondered about the thief on the cross - was he saved and allowed into heaven without water baptism because there was no possible way he could be baptised before he died?

[Vickimac]

OR, is it because it is not "essential" to salvation, but rather an act of an obedient Christian??

[CamelPower]

My Church of Christ friends will tell me that the thief on the cross was saved prior to Pentecost, and therefore not under those commandments of Acts 2:38, et al. on baptismal regeneration.

Arnold Fructenbaum, Ariel Ministries, and extremely good exponent on the need for Israel in the pre-trib movement, says that being "born of water" was a Hebrew idion for physical birth.

[M. Hawbaker]

Even today, when a pregnant woman goes into labor, we say that "her water has broken."

[architectlink]

God is awesome...check out this sermon that I heard tonight and how it might answer my first post question:

Suffering for Doing Good

8Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble. 9Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing. 10For,
"Whoever would love life and see good days
must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from deceitful speech.
11He must turn from evil and do good; he must seek peace and pursue it.
12For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer,
but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."[1]
13WHO is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? 14But EVEN IF you should suffer for what is right, YOU ARE BLESSED. "Do NOT fear what they fear[2] ; do not be frightened."[3] 15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. 17It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. 18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[4] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. IN IT ONLY A FEW PEOPLE, EIGHT IN ALL, WERE SAVED THROUGH WATER, AND THIS WATER SYMBOLIZES BABTISM THAT NOW SAVES YOU ALSO--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[5] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.


Isn't God cool to provide a sermon giving clarification on a term that I posted last week? Praise you Lord and I love your SIGNS!

[Average Joey]

The water does not refer to being born from your mother`s womb.The water Jesus speaks of is himself.The "Living Water".I`ll post scripture.

Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Jhn 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Jhn 4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?

Jhn 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

Jhn 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Christ is the living water.His death on the cross is the cleansing water of our sins.In other words.What Jesus was saying in John 3:5 is Truely,Truely,I say unto you unless a man is cleansed by my blood and of Holy Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven.God bless you all in Christ Jesus.

Average Joey

[Doulos]

Vickimac,

Amen, to everything!

[Lordschild]

emmie, I believe that the Lord leaves NOTHING to chance, that every period, comma etc...(so to speak), is in the Word for a reason.

He puts things in, and leaves things out for a reason, when you look at the Word.

I don't believe water baptism is necessary for salvation, not only from the example of the thief on the cross, but, also from the example in Acts :


Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


These folks had received the gifting of tongues, and obviously had the Holy Spirit, BEFORE they experienced water baptism.

So no, I do not consider it a necessity for salvation.

If you confess with your mouth, and believe in your heart that Jesus was raised from the dead, you shall be saved.

There is nothing there about water baptism.

Although, I do think water baptism is definitely to be done in obedience to the Lord.

As to the thief's salvation?...I believe he was saved, for Jesus said he'd be with Him in Paradise today. And it is a clear example to us, that water baptism is not necessary for salvation.

{breathes} :lol

[JoeNC]

Good verses Architectlink. God washes away our sins, it is His work. As LC pointed out people were washed clean of their sins before the physical act of Baptism. John's Baptism was of repentance. I think that Nicodemus would have understood water as a sign of Gods work in washing away our sins. Literal water not needed....

Ezekiel 36:25 ¶Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

... and here again we are cleaned, not by a literal washing..

Ephesians 5:25 _Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 _That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 _That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

...Gods work in the heart of man- water is a symbol of what God does. Faith is the key to being born again.

filosofer- Jesus spoke those words to Nicodemus before the great commission.

[Lordschild]

Originally posted by CamelPower


Arnold Fructenbaum, Ariel Ministries, and extremely good exponent on the need for Israel in the pre-trib movement, says that being "born of water" was a Hebrew idion for physical birth.

CP, I've looked on his site for something along those lines last night, but didn't find it.

You got any links?...I need it in apolo ;)

[Joyous_n_Jesus]

Ephesians 5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word.

John1:1 In the beginning was the WORD , and the WORD was with God, and the WORD was God.

John 1:14 And the WORD was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Jesus said He was the Living Water....

1 Cor. 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Romans 10:13-15 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

[Don]

Originally posted by architectlink
I found this in NIV and NKJV...does it mean that new Christians should be babtised?

John 3

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of WATER and the Spirit.

Any explanations or additional links are appreciated.



I suppose I'll try answering this question:

Let's start with your first question: "Does this mean that new Christians should be baptized." Because the verse you quoted is talking about salvation, I'll assume you meant to ask two things

1. "Is water baptism necessary for salvation?" (this is regardless of whether or not it is commanded, which it obviously would be if it were necessary)

and

2. "Are new Christians commanded to be baptized?" (this is regardless of whether water-baptism has saving power or not)



Well, let's start with question #1 and turn that around. We'll begin with the assertion that "Water baptism is necessary for salvation". Let us now test this assertion to see if it is true. If we can determine whether or not it is true or false, then your question of "Is water baptism necessary for salvation?" will be answered.

Now, to test the truthfulness of the statement "Water baptism is necessary for salvation" we simply need to find at least one example of people being saved without being baptized. If we find such an example, then our assertion is false and our question is answered.

If we can find no example of anyone being saved without first being baptized, then, contrary to what most people think, we cannot conclude that baptism is necessary. We can only guess from the overwhelming evidence that baptism must be necessary. So, right from the start we find that there are only two possible answers that we can arrive at for the question "Is water baptism necessary for salvation?": "No" and "Most likely".

One might say that a direct command from God would trump all evidence. However, it is not possible for God to say "Everyone must be water-baptized in order to be saved" and then turnaround and save people who are not water-baptized. If we have such a direct statement from God and then we find even one example of a person being saved without being water-baptized, then we re-evaluate our understanding of God's commandment.

Some people think that Jesus' words "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of WATER and the Spirit." is a direct command that no-one can be saved without being water-baptized if they can help it. If we find one example of someone being saved without being water-baptized first, then we must re-evaluate our understanding of what Jesus said.

Enough set-up; let's look for evidence of people being saved without being water baptized. I'll ignore the thief on the cross because he died before Christ. Let's start after Pentecost, because the age we are living in now has functionally been the same (more or less) since Pentecost.

Here's some scripture:

Acts 10:24-18
[24]The next day Peter started out with them, and some of the brothers from Joppa went along. The following day he arrived in Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. [25]As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. [26]But Peter made him get up. "Stand up," he said, "I am only a man myself."
[27]Talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. [28]He said to them: "You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. [29]So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?"
[30]Cornelius answered: "Four days ago I was in my house praying at this hour, at three in the afternoon. Suddenly a man in shining clothes stood before me [31]and said, 'Cornelius, God has heard your prayer and remembered your gifts to the poor. [32]Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He is a guest in the home of Simon the tanner, who lives by the sea.' [33]So I sent for you immediately, and it was good of you to come. Now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to tell us."
[34]Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism [35]but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right. [36]You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. [37]You know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached-- [38]how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
[39]"We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree, [40]but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. [41]He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen--by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. [42]He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. [43]All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
[44]While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. [45]The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. [46]For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
[47]Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." [48]So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days. "

Here we have an example of a large group of people (v27) receiving the Holy Spirit by simply hearing (and presumably believing) the gospel preached by Peter (v44). Peter then goes on to ask "What's to stop these people from being water-baptized, too?".

I am making the assumption that these people believed what Peter preached (even though it only says they heard it in my English translation) and that they were saved because of it (even though it only says they received the Holy Spirit). Some may argue that this was just the Holy Spirit moving them to get baptized and be saved, but Peter makes the comment that these people "[have] the Holy Spirit just as we have." This leads me to think that these people were just as saved as Peter because I don't think an unsaved person could have the Holy Spirit just like Peter did.

So, I present this as an example of people being saved without being water-baptized. This makes the statement "Water baptism is necessary for salvation" false, and, therefore, answers the question "Is water baptism necessary for salvation?" with a "No".


Now, to back this up I will give two more passages from apostolic letters:

1 Corinthians 1:10-17
"[10]I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. [11]My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. [12]What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Peter"; still another, "I follow Christ."
[13]Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? [14]I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, [15]so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. [16](Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) [17]For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel--not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Paul, here, says that he is actually glad he didn't baptize more than a handful of people. How could an apostle be glad he didn't baptize people if baptism was necessary for their salvation?
Paul then says that God didn't send him to baptize with water! This statement alone is powerful evidence against the saving power of water-baptism. If water-baptism was necessary for salvation, why would God send an apostle to the Gentiles -- to people in dire need of salvation -- without the purpose of him water-baptizing them?


Here's another passage from one of Peter's letters:

1 Peter 3:18-22
"[18]For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, [19]through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison [20]who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, [21]and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, [22]who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him."

Peter himself says that water-baptism is just symbolic of the "real baptism" that saves you (which is the baptism in the Holy Spirit).

I think I have shown enough evidence that water-baptism is not necessary for salvation. If anyone believes otherwise and can refute the evidence I have presented, please do so.


Now, I believe I've answered the first part of what I think you were really trying to ask with your question. Is water baptism necessary for salvation? No.


Ask for the second part -- "Is water-baptism commanded by God for new Christians?" -- I think it is. The scripture you quoted is talking about salvation, not about a command for believers, but the apostles were commanded to baptize people as part of their commission at the ascension of Christ:

Matthew 28:18-20
"[18]Then Jesus came to the disciples and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [19]Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [20]and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."


Now, as for what Jesus meant by "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of WATER and the Spirit.", I'm inclined to believe was talking about a physical birth and a spiritual birth because a) he talked about being born "again", and b) Nicodemus thought he was talking about physical birth.

To me, it's like this:

J.C. "You have to be born again to be saved."
Nic "How can I be born again? I can't crawl back into my mother's womb, can I?"
J.C. "No, no, no. I mean you must be *spiritually* born the second time. I say born *again* because you're born physically the first time, then spiritually the second."
Nic. "Thanks for the clarification."
J.C. "No prob."

[architectlink]

Hey everyone...thanks for the wonderful posts...I'm back from an awesome trip to NYC....it is cold up there and gorgeous...and the city is so friendly and there are lots of great bargains!

What a great place to visit right now!

More later. The Holy Spirit is moving everywhere!

[architectlink]

Update...

Long time since I opened this thread..

I'm on overload and we have a trip scheduled this weekend, guess what the dear Lord did...

DH has never been babtised, and we went on the Calvary Chapel website to see how far the Ft. Lauderdale church was from our hotel...AND THEY HAVE AN OCEAN BABTISM SCHEDULED FOR SUNDAY!

Awesome, huh?! Just think, the Lord knew we were on overload, so He scheduled the most wonderful event to coincide with our trip..

Thank you Lord. Asking that you keep us from getting the flu so we all can be there to celebrate!

[antsinmypants]

I'm at work so i kinda skimmed this.

Born of water means born from the womb.. You're in an amniotic sac, which has water.
You have to be born of human flesh, then born again of the spirit (accepting Messiah for who he is and what he has accomplished/will accomplish). Getting baptized (Mikvah) is only a following of a command.. it's not ness. but it is a good thing.

:)

[LanceVB]

In this verse it is reference to physical birth and then spiritual birth.

Jn. 3:4: "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

Jn. 3:5: Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

Verse six confirms this:

Jn. 3:6: Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

physical life begins at birth, something Nicodemus could understand, spiritual birth is the beginning of you spiritual life.

CHARIS
Lance

[architectlink]

Update...

We visited Calvary Chapel, Ft. Lauderdale while on a business trip, and let me tell you all--IT WAS AWESOME! The Holy Spirit is really moving there.

And...after that, we went to the ocean for dear hubby to be babtised. We were joined by at least 30-40 really cool pastors and probably 400 other people. It was totally awesome. I was babtised years ago in a stream in college, and it really made me jealous for all those people who were babtised today in the ocean. Such a beautiful sight, young and old, healthy and crippled.

If you ever go to Ft. Lauderdale, check out the Calvary Chapel...I wish I hadn't missed it on the last few business trips we've taken...it is a real treat.

God Bless you guys!