A MYSTERY : The Rapture and the Parable of Ten Virgins

[rollinTHUNDER]

Most christians that have heard of the rapture believe that Jesus Christ will one day soon rapture the church. I believe this is the greatest mystery that the world has NEVER known, just as Christ was an unknown mystery through-out old testament times. Very little is actually known about this mystery, but we were given some clues. This will probably come as a great shock to most of you, but I don't believe the Lord will be coming to take His church. I believe He will be coming to take His bride. In this study, I aim to show that there is a difference between the [church] and the .

If you are one that doesn't believe in the rapture, or don't know what the rapture is, I would advise you to stop reading now. This message isn't meant to teach or debate whether or not there will be a rapture. The rapture in this article is a [B]given, whether you believe in it or not. From this point forward, the question isn't If there will be a rapture, but Who will be raptured. Is there a difference between the church and the bride?? That is the question.

If you read my thread, "MY DELIVERER IS COMIN!!", I showed how the Lord gave us pictures of things in the ancient days in order that we may see how things will come about in the future, or the last days. I called them models or shadows of things to come, because God has made History repeat itself. The model was always smaller than the event it was foreshadowing, and was given so we could be able to see the main event coming. People who know their History know that history often repeats itself, but most of them don't know that God designed it that way, but He did. It doesn't just happen by chance, or coincidence and neither is it accidental.

Ecclesiastes 3: 15 -
"Whatever is has already been, and what will be has been before; and God will call the past to account."

Isaiah 46: 10 - "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.

And here is another one I want to add to them that I have just recently found, because it fits in so nicely -----Hebrews 10: 1a -"The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming -- not the realities themselves."

This subject goes very deep. If you are a new christian or one that hasn't done much bible study, it would probably be a good idea to stop now, because this subject will probably be way over your head. If I could borrow a line from my Pastor : "Don't try to understand this with your human mind" - because unless the Lord gives one understanding, he will not be able to see. In other words, he who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit says. This subject promises to be very controversial and I don't know if I can stress that enough. Don't let the word (controversial) scare you away though, the words of Christ have been very controversial for almost 2000 years, and so were His miracles and His very life. This will be a hardy meal with strong meat, and requires strong teeth. I'm fresh out of milk, so we will have to settle for water from a very deep well.

With that lengthy introduction, I am ready to get started. Let's put on our thinking caps and go to the Parable of the Ten Virgins.
Mathew 25: 1-13 - - - - - - -
"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. (2)Five of them were foolish and five were wise. (3)The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. (4)The wise, however, took oil in their jars with their lamps. (5)The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep. (6)At midnight the cry rang out : "Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!" (7)Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. (8)The foolish ones said to the wise, "Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out." (9)"No," they replied, "there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves." (10)But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet, and the door was shut. (11)Later the others also came. "Sir! Sir!" they said. "Open the door for us!" (12)But he replied, "I tell you the truth, I don't know you." (13)Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour." - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The first thing we should notice is that only half of the virgins are ready when the bridegroom arrives. They were all virgins, and they all knew that the groom was going to come. Therefore we can assume that they all were believers, but only half of them were ready. Now let's look at another scripture that also proves this point. Actually though, I would read Matt. 24: 36-51, but for the sake of keeping this a bit shorter, I'll only pull up a couple of these verses.

Mathew 24: 39b-42 - "That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. (40)Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. (41)Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken; and the other left. (42)Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come."

I remember watching Jack Van Impe, and he said that this was not the rapture, but rather the judgment. I am not trying to knock brother Jack. I still enjoy watching his shows, but I must disagree with this point. If this were the judgment, then they would all be taken, and the sheep would be placed on the right, while the goats would be placed on the left. Another popular theory about Matt. 24: 40-41 is that in the tribulation 1/4 of the population on earth will be killed and later 1/3 of those that remain are killed. Although I would agree that 1/4 + 1/3 = 1/2, I would still have to disagree with this option too.

First of all, we were never told that the 1/4 and 1/3 of men dying was a result of the second coming. In Rev. 6:8, 1/4 were killed as a result of the sword, famine, plague and by the wild beasts of the earth. In Rev. 9:15, 1/3 of mankind is killed by the four evil angels that were released from the abyss. And second of all, when the Lord does return to this earth, there will be many more goats than sheep. Matt. 7:13-14 - "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. (14)But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it".

It is important to remember that the anti-christ will be given power to overcome the saints. I believe that these verses are talking about the rapture, and the reason that many are grabbing for straws, and having trouble making everything fit is because they are expecting the entire church to be raptured, but we can easily see that people are still receiving salvation in the tribulation. Now let's move on to phase 2 of this study, but don't forget the Parable of the Ten Virgins.

Next I want to show that Adam was a model of the one to come, Christ. Romans 5: 14 - "Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command as Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come."
And now we go to the chapter that solely talks about the resurrection.

1 Corr. 51: 44b-45 -
"If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. (45)So it is written; The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam a life giving spirit." Knowing that we are talking about the rapture, (the coming of the second Adam to get His bride), we need to go back and take a look at the first Adam's mate. I know this may sound weird, but did you ever consider where Eve came from?? Eve wasn't like all the other created beasts or even like Adam himself, which were created out of the dust of the earth. No - Eve was made in a very unique and different way.

In 1 Corr. 15, the entire chapter is about nothing other than the resurrection. Let's look at how it compares the likenesses of the first and second Adams. This should give us a clue.
1 Corr. 15:48-49 - "As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so are those who are of heaven. (49)And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven." WOW!!

And now when we consider the mysterious rapture, shouldn't we also consider the likenesses of Adam's bride and the bride of Christ (the second Adam), since we know that Jesus will return for His bride also?? Isn't it odd to see where Eve came from??
Gen. 2: 22-23 -
"Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib He had taken out of the man, and He brought her to the man. (23)The man said, "This is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called "woman," for she was taken out of man." Why would God make Adam's mate a different way?? I believe this is a clue, and we should remember the pattern first, and also that the rapture is a great mystery.

1 Corr. 15: 51-52 - "Listen, I tell you a mystery : We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed -- (52)in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

Eve was made very different and she was very special too, but she wasn't more special than the bride of Christ, which will be the bride of the second Adam. The bride of Christ will be a wonderfully amazing miracle. This miracle (the rapture) just may be the greatest shock the world will ever experience, and I believe it will be. It doesn't even seem possible, and most of the unbelieving world laughs at the idea of millions of people simply vanishing into thin air. They won't be expecting this great event to happen, and they don't know the God of miracles that we know, who can very easily do the impossible, as He has been doing time after time after time....Although they will be caught completely off guard, we as believers should expect the unexpected, especially if we call ourselves His.

We need to keep in mind that the rapture is still and will remain a great mystery. If we knew all of the details about it, then it wouldn't be fair to call it a mystery. Should we dare take a closer look?? Or should we fear the unknown and stop seeking and watching for Him, which would be the exact opposite of what He commanded us to do. I don't think you can go down to the local Christian Book Store and buy a book on this subject, but that shouldn't stop us from seeking and increasing our knowledge. Aren't we in the last days?? And didn't God tell Daniel to seal up the words, and that knowledge would be increased in the last days??

It's not important that we know all there is to know about this mysterious future event, but it is very important for the bride to be ready when her Bridegroom comes calling. We will not hear him say, "Ready or not, here I come".
Matt. 24: 48-50 - "But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, "My master is staying away a long time, (49)and he begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. (50)The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of."

2 Pet. 3: 3-4 - First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. (4)They will say, "Where is the coming he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." We hear the world saying this today, but it is sad to hear christians listening to them and saying it themselves. They should read Psalm 1:1 - "Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked or stand in the way of sinners or sit in the seat of mockers."
[End of Part One]

[rollinTHUNDER]

So in conclusion, is it possible that we could take a look at the first Adam as a pattern for the second Adam, who was and is Christ?? The first Adam received his bride from right out of his own body. So using this as a pattern, wouldn't it also be fair to assume that God will also take Christ' bride out of His own body, the same way He took Eve out of Adams body?? The church is the Body of Christ. If we, the christians are the "Body of Christ", shouldn't we expect that God will take Christ' Bride out of this body of believers, and not the whole entire body?? This writer believes that Christ will be coming back to receive His bride unto Himself, and not the entire church. Everyone knows that the word church is not mentioned after chapter 3 in the Book of Revelation, until you get to chapter 22, but you still see believers receiving salvation for their testimony of Christ in the tribulation period. I believe the church is no longer mentioned as a whole, because half of the members (the bride) are no longer on the earth, because they are being made ready for the wedding in heaven.

I don't believe that the lukewarm will be among those who are getting prepared for this wedding. I believe the bride that Jesus will be coming for will be faithful, holy, righteous, blameless, ready for her Bridegroom and they will also be longing to see Him. I also believe that the tribulation saints are none other than the five foolish virgins that were not prepared or ready when the Bridegroom came. I am not saying that they won't be saved, because the entire church will be saved. The five foolish virgins will be martyred in the tribulation. They will not receive the same reward as the bride. Those that are ready will be the most blessed of all. The trib saints will be forced to reject the mark of the beast and hold on to their testimony of Christ, and they will all be martyred. God will not avenge their blood until the very last one of them is under the altar. It will be a game of survival after that, and everyone left will be separated into one of two groups (sheep and goats). The sheep will repopulate the earth in the new millenium, while the goats will meet their doom.

At this point, you are probably wondering what the difference is between the five wise and the five foolish virgins?? Well I'm not going to claim to have all the answers, but I think it would be foolish to come this far and not try to tie it all together. I believe that many of the people that go to church on Sundays will be very disappointed when they realize that they were left behind. Maybe they will be just as shocked as the ones who didn't even know about the rapture?? Many of them have already received Jesus as their Lord and Savior. They go to church almost every Sunday and try to be good people, but is that what Christ taught us??

Going to church on Sunday is all well and good, but what about the other six days of each week?? Do the people they know and work with know that they are christians, or were the people at church the only ones to know?? The five wise virgins were shining their lights and serving their Lord, because they knew they were children of light, and the foolish ones were hiding their light. The wise were filled with the Holy Spirit, but the foolish were filled with self and the desires of this life. For whatever reason, the foolish ones were not yet purified. Remember when Jesus said, "Do not love the world or anything in the world?" He also said, "Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. He clearly told us not to serve two masters. We can't pour new wine into the old wine skins, and expect to be faithful. Those that do will be double-minded at best.

The five wise virgins wanted to please their Lord out of a pure love for Him. They were obedient and separated themselves from the schemes of the evil worldly system. They were crucified with Christ, and Christ was living out His life through them. They have been purified in the trials and tribulations of this life, and they are ready for their Master to come, for this is their hope. The same can not be said of the five foolish virgins. They love Him too but they have put themselves ahead of their first love. They were too busy with the worries of life to look after the things that their Master commanded them to do. They have not been purified in the spiritual things, and will not be ready when the Bridegroom comes for them. They still need to be purified, and sadly, they will be martyrs in the tribulation period. But better late than never!!

Do you remember that tv commercial from one of those Oil Companies that said, "You can pay me now, or you can pay me later"?? He was implying that it would be much cheaper and easier to take care of it early, instead of procrastinating and paying a huge price later. The idea was, "take care of what you have". Jesus said to hold on to what you have so that no-one will take your crown. There are many people not heeding the warnings. We need to be alert, and careful not to get caught in the trappings of this world, because there will not be an announcement of our Lord's coming. He is going to come suddenly, like a thief in the night, and He told us to keep watch. Many are called, but few are chosen. Let us be found doing His will when He returns.

Jesus said, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it," [Matt. 16:24-25]. The Bible says that everyone born of God overcomes the world. I believe the first step in overcoming the world, is overcoming "self". We've got to lay it down. The foolish virgins are still chasing after the things in the world and trying to keep up with the Jone's. But Luke 9:25 says, "What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit his very self?" The wise will escape this trap, but the foolish ones will have to patiently endure the hour of trial that will come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth, [Rev. 3:10] emphasis added.

WATCHFULNESS :

Luke 12: 35-38 - "Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning, (36)like men waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him. (37)It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. I tell you the truth, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them. (38)It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the second or third watch in the night."

Luke 21: 34-36 - "Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. (35)For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. (36)Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man." / Notice that it says (may). There was never any guarantee that the whole church would be raptured, but we can see that the wise will escape.

OVERCOMING :

2 Peter 2: 20-21 - "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and again are entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were in the beginning. (21)It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them."

1 John 5: 3-4 - "This is the love for God : to obey His commands. And His commands are not burdensome, (4)for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith."

2 Peter 3: 17 - "Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

More warnings to heed :
1 Corr. 3: 12-15 - "If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, (13)his work will be shown for what it is, because the day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. (14)If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. (15)If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

Hebrews 10: 36-38 - "You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised. (37)For in just a very little while, He who is coming will come and not delay. (38)But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him."

1 John 5: 4 - "for everyone born of God overcomes the world."

Mark 9: 34-35 - "But they kept quiet because on the way they had argued about who was the greatest. (35)Sitting down, Jesus called the twelve and said, "If anyone wants to be first, he must be the very last, and the servant of all."

John 10:14-16 - "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me - (15)just as the Father knows me and I know the Father - and I lay down my life for the sheep. (16)I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen, I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd."

2 Timothy 2:4-7 - "No one serving as a soldier gets involved in civilian affairs - he wants to please his commanding officer. (5)Similarly, if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not receive the victor's crown unless he competes according to the rules (commandments). (6)The hard working farmer should be the first to receive a share of the crops. (7)Reflect on what I am saying, for the Lord will give you insight into all this." (Emphasis added)

Rev. 3: 10-11 - "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. (11)I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown." / Notice that they were not being kept from the test, but rather, they were being kept from the (hour or time) of the test, meaning that they will not be here, Praise God!! Of the seven churches mentioned in the Book of Revelation, only one was promised to be kept from the hour of trial, but that promise was conditional. If they heed Jesus' command to endure (overcome the world), and wait patiently for their Lord they will escape. There are lots of warnings to overcome and promises made to those that do in the second and third chapters of Revelation, for those that care to swim a little deeper into this subject. MARANATHA!!!
_________________

[TR3]

Basically I am in agreement with what you said.
But I'm more inclined to state that everyone that
goes to church are not neccessarilly believers,
having the Holy Spirit.

To me, some are only social church go'ers and
don't really know what scripture say's or means.
I know of some examples of people, I know, that
have gone, but just didn't seem to know what
it was about and didn't try to find out.

Just last Sunday there was someone who slept
for most of the service, but I beleive his believing
wife brought him. Boy has she got a job, wish I
could help.

So in my opinion, it means that not all people
that go to church will be ready, as, waiting
believers and if you are a believer then you do
have the Holy Spirit and you are ready. But I can
also see how a believer could be to involved in
the worldly thing and not really in waiting.
Doesn't seem possible to me but I know I have
the Holy Spirit and was led to find out what
Scripture meant including the Rapture.

Anyway a good post!

Also Jack Van Impe also has said that the " one will
be taken and the other left " was in relation to the
1/4 being killed and 1/3 the remaining being killed.

God Bless
Don

[hiswill]

I completely agree with your study. Please check out this thread I started bout six months ago on the same exact thing!

Cry goes forth "bridegroom is on his way"

All my love in Jesus Christ,
hiswill

how do I make it so you click on it?

[stardaddy]

Good insights and certainly worth pondering...there's someone on this board who uses a wonderful signature at the end of his/her posts and I think it lends itself well to some of what your referencing....."going to church every week doesn't anymore make you a Chirstian; than going to an auto repair shop every week makes you a mechanic"....or some words to that effect.
The Lord lives in our hearts; not buildings made of stone...we have only to receive Him in...I like that !!

[Jany]

Hi, thunder....IMHO, the parable of the Ten Virgins is not related to the rapture at all. This would make the Rapture a "50-50" deal, and it surely isn't. This parable relates only to the Second Coming <><

[divinespirit855]

This thread is a double-edged sword. So very true. But guys, after reading it--I am very scared. I feel like I am not ready. I spend money too much, buying stuff in this world.(PS one, clothes, CD's) Very selfish "earthly" things. I felt after reading this that I am not ready, but I desire soo much for his return. I am really starting to freak out about this for the first time. :eek Maybe I shouldn't be feeling this way, but the rapture is very near and I am a little 'afraid' for many reasons. I have had recent fears of being left behind, and I cannot imagine life if the rapture is far far away--because I do not want to be 'catching up with the jones' ' Do I sound out of place on this? As a teen with many peers who tend to 'need the cell phones, the nice clothes, the new cars' , it's tough stuff to just turn the cheeck and avoid the 'earthly pleasures'. So many times I find myself not using perfect moments to spread the gospel. I WILL try very hard this school year--I am determined. I just hope the rapture does not occur this following week, because I feel like I am not ready:oh It's like I have a few souls I have to help, and yet a part of me says I am ready----I don't know, weird strange odd feelings in the final days.:sigh :eek

[The Publican]

excelent study!

[maxdad]

Divinespirit, I don't believe you have anything to worry about. Anyone who is on this rapture board every day like so many of us is not here because of ourselves. Who here has not said to themselves "I have got to stop looking at that board and start doing regular life type stuff"? Maybe not in so many words, but I have seen threads relating to that very fear many times. I have felt that fear many times myself. Yet, we keep coming here to fellowship with like minded people. Jesus said that his flock would know his voice. I believe that is why we are compelled to keep coming to this board. Whether rollinTHUNDER is correct or not (and by the way, I really like rollinTHUNDER's post and it has a lot of good items to think about) I think that just the fact that we are compelled to be here in spite of our "common sense" telling us that we shouldn't be, is a pretty good indicator that something is going on.

Also, a question I have concerning this study is this. What about the part where the restrainer is taken away from the Earth? Isn't that thought to be the church...not just part of the church. Can just part of the restrainer be taken and another part left?

[TR3]

Hey, divinespirit, I don't really think you have anything
to worry about.
I've read your posts and believe you are in very good
understanding of what is coming and don't doubt at
all that you are a bonified believer.
Being young you want these things and theres nothing
wrong with that.
I'm older and also want some things even though I
think the Rapture could happen at anytime.
I'm still thinking about selling my home and buying a
new one. I'm thinking about buying a boat. As a
widower I'm even looking for a wife to enjoy this stuff
with.
That doesn't mean I'm not waiting for the Lord and the
Rapture.

Just do your thing and the Lord will guide you through
your path. And study scripture, you probably do that
more than I do right now.

God Bless and keep the Lord
Don

[MerryInOKC]

divinespirit855
Bless your heart don't FREAK! Here's what a wonderful Radio Bible preacher man named JV Mcgee on this subject of the Virgins and who goes in the Rapture and who is ready when the 2nd Coming happens:

(I hope it's ok to quote out of his commentary book "Thru the Bible" and I hope I typed it out ok)

JVMCGEE

THRU THE BIBLE Matthew 24 pge 135

THEME: Olivet Discourse continued--the parable of the ten virgins.....

This chapter enlarges upon the answer of Jesus to the question, "What shall be the sign of they coming?" Matt. 24:3). There is the parable of the ten virgins, which tests the genuineness of the faith of Israel; the parable of the talents, which tests the faithfulness of His servants; and the judgment of the gentile nations, which tests their right of admission into the kingdom. This chpater shows the significance of the coming of Christ as it relates to these groups that shall then be in the world. A close analysis of each group will reveal that it can be stripped down to a personal attitude and relationship to Jesus Christ.

The parable of the ten virgins is the basis for those who believe in what is known as the partial rapture, where only some will be taken out of the world. The "partial rapture" group is made up of very fine people. When I first became pastor in Nashville, Tennessee, there was a wonderful Bible class there, and they supported me in getting Bible conferences into Nashville. From the beginning, the class had been taught by a teacher who believed in partial rapture. Candidly, I feel that the partial rapture theory ministers to spiritual snobbery. I never met one of that group who didn't think that he was with the five wise virgins. In fact, I have never in all my life met one who thought he was classed with the foolish virgins! I was a young preacher in those days, and as I worked with them I had the feeling they they were not sure that I was one of them. I suspected that they classified me as one of the foolish ones.

I thank God that when the Rapture takes place, every believer is going out. And we won't be going on the basis of merit. All of us will be leaving because of the grace of God. He saves us by grace; He keeps us by grace; He will take us out of this world by grace; and when we have been there for ten million years, it will be by the grace of God.

The ten virgins do not refer to the church, they refer to the nation Israel. My friend, we need to let our Lord answer the questions of these men who were His apostles. They had asked Him the questions. If we try to make out that He was talking to us about something altogether different, it is as though we are interrupting Him. Let's just listen and know that, although He is talking to someone else, we can make application of these wonderful parables to our own lives.

PARABLES OF THE TEN VIRGINS



"Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom (Matt.25:11).

To better understand the customs in Israel during the New Testament period, we refer to the Pe****ta, which is a Syriac version of the Bible. Although it is not a text to be recommended, it does shed light on some of the customs of the day. The Pe****ta translation of the verse before us indicates that the virgins went forth to meet the bridegroom and the bride, which means that the bridegroom is coming from the marriage to the marriage supper. It is my understanding that, although the marriage of Christ and the church takes place in heaven, the marriage supper takes place on this earth. A passage in the Gospel of Luke substatiates this. As our Lord is giving warnings and parables, He says, " Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning, And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately" (Luke 12-35-36). You see, the wedding has taken place, and the bride is with him. Obviously, if he is coming from the wedding, the bride is with him; no man ever went on a honeymoon by himself--if he did, it wasn't a honeymoon!

So here in the parable of the ten virgins, Christ, pictured as the bridegroom, is bringing the bride with Hiim, and the believers on earth are waiting for Him to come. While the Great Tribulation has been going on upon the earth, Christ has been yonder in heaven with His bride, the church. Then at the conclusion of the seven years of Tribulation, He comes back to earth with the church.

This, now is the attitude toward His coming on the part of those on the earth--

"And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no OIL with them:

But the wise took OIL in their vessels with their lamps" (Matt. 25:2-4).

Oil is symbolic of the Spirit of God. In that day I think there will be phonies as there were at His first coming. Jesus called them hypocrites. They will have lamps but no OIL.

"While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps" Matt.25:5-7.

Notice that both the wise and the foolish virgins slept. The difference in them was that some had the Holy Spirit (represented by the oil) and some did not-- because they were not genuine believers.

Our Lord concludes this parable with a warning--

"Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh" Matt. 25-13).

Notice that it is "the day nor the hour" rather than the century or the year, as it is from our perspective. The attitude for His own during this future period is to watch. That is the important thing for them to do.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope this helped you. It did me.

(edited to fix typos):sigh

[Jennie in TO]

Thanks Merry....I have heard of the partial rapture theory before. It is very much a Witness Lee/Watchman Nee theory. Great people, but some screwy doctrines every once in a while. I agree with J. V. McGee. I think there are believers and false believers, not partial believers;)

[divinespirit855]

Thank you guys!:D :)
For a second there I felt like I was unready, but now I realize that if I am not really ready, why would I worry about being ready? I just had one of those 'moments'. :lol But seriously, I look back and realize the terrible scenario I would be in If I didn't have Christ, If I did not have good Christian friends, If this board did not exist. Thanks again.

[MerryInOKC]

Jennie in TO
I Homeschool also!! Four years now. Thanks for your comments. I agree with you too "I think there are believers and false believers, not partial believers"

divinespirit855
You put that very well. It's wonderful to be able to discuss these things here and receive support from others when we get a little freaked out about something! God is so good!


rollinTHUNDER
Thank you starting this thread. It was very interesting.
:)

[BeyondPrice]

People people people. You make it so complicated.


The Ten Virgins are the Virgins of Revelation there are not the Bride, but friends of the Bride. This is after the rapture.

Matthew 24 verses 1-14 is the Church or our present time, look.......
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Verses 13 & 14 hints at the rapture.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Verses 15 - 30 is the Great Tribulation

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Versus 30 - 31 is the Lord's return to earth with the Previously raptured.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Now Jesus gives clues as to when, by Prophecying Isreal's rebirth as a nation.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only

Verses 37 - 39, Jesus expalin about how the world will be just BEFORE the day of HIs return, in other words he is about to talk about the rapture of the church.

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Verses 40-51 is the rapture of the Church.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Matthew 25 verses 1 - 13 are the tribulation saints sfter the rapture. Notice the word VIRGIN?

1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.


Revelation 6: 9 - 11 are the Trib saints too.

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 14: 1 - 5 are the trib saints too. Notice the word VIRGIN?

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Matthew 25: 15-30 The Lord returns to judge the survivors of the Tribulation which includes the believers and unbelievers, the beleivers are much more numerous her because the wicked followers of the beast have pretty much been killed by the plagues and judgements of the Tribulation.

15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The Last Judgement are for those that lived during the yet to be 1000 Earthly Reign of Jesus and it is for the unsaved of all the history of the Earth.

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Revelation 20: 7 - 15 The Last Judgement

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

[rollinTHUNDER]

Originally posted by divinespirit855
This thread is a double-edged sword. So very true. But guys, after reading it--I am very scared. I feel like I am not ready. I spend money too much, buying stuff in this world.(PS one, clothes, CD's) Very selfish "earthly" things. I felt after reading this that I am not ready, but I desire soo much for his return. I am really starting to freak out about this for the first time. :eek Maybe I shouldn't be feeling this way, but the rapture is very near and I am a little 'afraid' for many reasons. I have had recent fears of being left behind, and I cannot imagine life if the rapture is far far away--because I do not want to be 'catching up with the jones' ' Do I sound out of place on this? As a teen with many peers who tend to 'need the cell phones, the nice clothes, the new cars' , it's tough stuff to just turn the cheeck and avoid the 'earthly pleasures'. So many times I find myself not using perfect moments to spread the gospel. I WILL try very hard this school year--I am determined. I just hope the rapture does not occur this following week, because I feel like I am not ready:oh It's like I have a few souls I have to help, and yet a part of me says I am ready----I don't know, weird strange odd feelings in the final days.:sigh :eek

Hi DivineSpirit,
I wouldn't be scared, you are way ahead of most teens your age. I believe it is perfectly fine to go buy things that you like. I don't believe you will know by getting a certain kind of feeling. I think it all comes down to surrendering. Are we abiding in Him and Him in us?? It's not about being good enough. Are we willing to obey and do His will??

I believe the ones that have crucified their flesh, and have surrendered to His will and obey Him, they will be the ones to be raptured. The other believers who have not surrendered, are still in the world. They will still be given a second chance to surrender, and they will, but it will be the hard way. They are still part of the church, and they will also be given the crown of life, but more blessed is he who His Master finds ready when He comes.

The scriptures say to pray that we may be able to escape all that is about to happen. It doesn't say every believer will be raptured. I have yet to find a scripture that teaches that the whole entire church will be raptured. If the whole church is to be raptured, then why are we told to pray to escape, and be ready and alert. The scriptures aren't like gossip, they are written for a reason. We need to heed the warnings. We need to be holy (set apart from the world), not in the world.

If you are allowing the Lord to mold you and make you a new creation, that is a good sign. But on the other hand, if you have been a christian for about 3 or 4 years, and your life hasn't changed at all, that's not good. Where is the evidence of their salvation?? These kind need to surrender.

It is very refreshing to see young people such as yourself chase after the spiritual things. I hope the Lord will richly bless you DivineSpirit!! Oh - one more thing / fear not!!

[skypair]

rollinTHNDER,

First off, is your "nom de plume" coming from the Vietnam War by any chance? I did a lot of air refueling back there.

Second, I agree with you - and you are very eloquent on it - right up to the point where you say some believers will be left behind. There is no basis for that deduction. It is the "oil" that determines and you get the oil when you receive Christ as Savior. Five "churches" left behind - yes, the parts that never received Christ, not the ones whose works are not worthy.

Martyred in the trib? Again, right on, bro! Fifth seal/midtrib could be the "dividing line" of God's dealing with the church with finality and God's dealing with Israel almost exclusively. The foolish show up in heaven - extending the parable - but can't get into the wedding cause they can't become part of the bride after she is taken.

maxdad Restrainer the church? Yes, indeed! The Spirit can only restrain AC through a human agency. That human agency is the believing church who have kept away all kinds of evil even here in America.

merryinOKC I find McGhee's rejection of partial Christianity in Matt 25:1-13 totally scriptural. That being said, he falls on the wrong side of the debate on the meaning of the parable of the 10 virgins. One reason is that he fails to see that 5 churches in Rev 2-3 will be taken all or in part and 5 will be left behind all or in part. But the issue of them being virgins (prospective brides) is definitely a NT image, 2 Cor 11:2. Did Paul "espouse" all the Corinthians in this verse? Even though some were in unbelief, yes, he did. This demonstrates that Corinth and other churches are virgins some of whom are saved and some lost (though many will be saved in the trib) meeting together in the "kingdom of heaven."

For some, JV's expalantion is satisfactory, but not for me.

maranatha,
skypair

[mountainrun]

I will have to side with those who say that five virgins are believers and five are not. Notice that the five who slept were not invited to the wedding feast. I find it hard to swallow that some Christians won't be allowed at the wedding feast of the Lamb because they aren't good enough. None of us are, though some seem to feel they are a bit above the crowd.

As to some being taken and some being left at the coming of Jesus, this refers to His return at the end of the tribulation.
The unbelievers will be taken and the elect for whose sake "those days will be cut short" will remain behind.

Jesus will not allow unbelievers to enter His millennial kingdom.
He has already said so.

In context the entire passage tell us that "the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah."

Remember that the godly Noah and his family remained behind and the unbelievers were taken away.

I believe you are way off base with this one.

[Mongoose60]

That is a real good bit of work you did on the Rapture issue.We have to do what we can to help those in Christ who have fallen behind ,and to the side of the road,and to get them back up with the rest of the pack before this big event takes place.:cool

[skypair]

mountain,

Well, thanks for agreeing precisely with what I said - "five virgins are believers and five are not" - and then saying I am way off base. Agreed also that He will not let any unbelievers into the MK. What are you debating anyway?

maranatha,
skypair

[BeyondPrice]

I am giving up! I just showed you where in the scripture the Bride is. Jesus is going to marry one Bride not five, or seven, or ten, Just one. The Bride is raptured at the End of Mathew chapter 24, She is the one church of the seven of Revelation that is KEPT out of the hour of Testing that will come upon the whole world, plus those that do repent out of the other six churches mentioned in Rev! please read it.

Of the six that are left one is spweed out of Jesus' mouth, That leaves 5. Half os each of the five are wise and half of each of the five are foolish. There are your ten Virgins of mathew chapter 25! The wedding that they go to does not take place until the Lord returns to earth The wedding feast is then not at the rapture.

You pepole always confuse everything!

You confuse the ten virgins with the the Bride.
You confuse the Antichrist with the false Prophet,
You confuse the Wedding Feast with the Rapture!!!!!

Why do you do this!!! Is it pride? Do you just want to be right no matter if it contradicts the Word?

I think I should give up posting. If you can't understand the Word espicilly when someone takes you by the Hand and shows it to you, like I have. How can you know the truth when it happens before your eyes and not be taken by surprise when He comes?

[mountainrun]

skypair, sorry. I was directing my post to rolling thunder.
I should have noted it at the beginning.

Matthew 24 does NOT describe the rapture, Beyond Price.
Why would the Lord remove believers from the earth before He sets up his long promised millennial Kingdom?
Why would He leave unbelievers behind to populate it?

[BeyondPrice]

Originally posted by mountainrun
Matthew 24 does NOT describe the rapture, Beyond Price.
Why would the Lord remove believers from the earth before He sets up his long promised millennial Kingdom?
Why would He leave unbelievers behind to populate it?

You don't want to beleive it, So nothing I can say or show you in the Bible will be acceptable to you. If it were then my earliest post in this thread would satisfy you. I took you by the hand down through Mathew chapters 24 & 25. But you and others like you just want to be right no matter how contary it is to scripture. So stay in your unbeleif. You have your mind made up, as do I; but I can back up what I say with scripture, you can not.

I am waiting for the Rapture Mathew 24: 40-51; Revealtion 3:10; & Revealtion 4:1.

[rollinTHUNDER]

Originally posted by mountainrun
skypair, sorry. I was directing my post to rolling thunder.
I should have noted it at the beginning.

Matthew 24 does NOT describe the rapture, Beyond Price.
Why would the Lord remove believers from the earth before He sets up his long promised millennial Kingdom?
Why would He leave unbelievers behind to populate it?

Hello mountainrun,
It appears by your questions here, that you are in the post-trib category?? That's okay. I never intended to shove this thread down anyones throat. I knew from the start that it would be way over the heads of some, that's okay too, but PLEASE, let us not fight over it. Some are going to agree with it, and some will not. Let's not start a war here, because someone doesn't agree with your opinion. Take it or leave it. It's really that simple. Everyone must decide for themselves. We must discern, not force others to believe what we believe. It's perfectly fine with me if others don't agree with me. Heck, some won't even have a clue as to what I'm talking about, and still others will think I'm nuts. It's all okay. Let's get past it and move on.

[mountainrun]

Hi rolling Thunder,
No, your post is not over anyone's head. It's simply incorrect.
I don't believe you are trying to shove it down anyone's throat, though.
That seems to be the preferred technique of Beyond Price.


Actually, I think my position would best be described as post millenial.
After all, won't the believers who die between your supposed pre trib rapture and the end of the millenium have to be resurrected?
After this, won't those who are still left alive on the earth be caught up to heaven with Jesus before God destroys the earth and makes it new?
Either that or He must destroy them also.

Remember that we are told that the resurrection at the end of the trib is "the first resurrection. The rest of the dead do not come to life until the end of the thousand years."

I think there is no reason at all not to suppose that the rapture follows the final resurrection.

I once believed in pretrib, but the evidence for it is not there.
There is nothing to indicate that Jesus will return invisibly.
The angels said that we would see Him return in the same way that He left.

[skypair]

mountain,

Postmillenial resurrection? Hmm. How about this - Christ the firstfruits (of those resurrected to glorified bodies), then they that are His at His coming (pretrib rapture), and then shall the end come (resurrection, as you say, of all other believers to glory). per 1 Cor 15

Now in between "rapture" and "the end" is the "first resurrection" to the earth (also known to OT as "resurrection of the just") and the "second resurrection" (of the unjust) to the GWT followed by the "second death" of all unbelievers per Rev 20.

What are your thoughts?

maranatha,
skypair

[Doulos]

I believe there has been a thing or two overlooked in what has been presented and I also hope to bring something new for consideration as well. In the parable of the Ten Virgins it is important to observe that all ten have lamps that are burning, but only 5 have oil with them.

Light is that which we present to the world. One that lives in conformity to God's commands would be said to present light to the world. But, one can present light without being a believer. In fact, there have been charlitans that have effectivly presented the gospel. One that practices Christianity purely as religion without faith would be perfectly defined as one that shows forth light but has no oil of the Spirit.

When the call goes forth that the bridegroom is comming the 5 foolish virgins realize the need for oil. The 5 wise virgins tell them to "purchase" this oil. The Spirit is not purchased, but rather the 5 foolish virgins are sent back to those that sell spiritual things. These would be likened to the hireling shepards. The foolish virgins are those that have sought out teachers that tickle their ears.

It is further made clear that the 5 foolish virgins are not believers because the bridegroom tells them, "I never knew you." This is the curse of the unbeliever.

Now there is much speculation as to the use of numbers in this parable. I believe that they serve a primarily symbolic purpose as opposed to refering 5 of anything specific or even to necesarily indicate half of an original number of something.

Symbolically 10 refers to testimony even as the 10 commandments were given as a testimony of God's Law. But, in this parable this 10 is broken down into 2 fives. 2 is the number of union or division since 2 can be made 1, or 1 divided into 2. Clearly from the context we are being shown a division so that is certainly the its meaning. Finally, the meaning of 5 is that of grace even as the 5 fold commands given to Pharaoh were given to redeem God's people from slavery.

Combined we see that what is indicated is the testimony of the division of grace. Surely there is nothing more devicive than grace. It is for this reason that families, peoples, religions have seen division. Those that have accepted grace are divided from those that do not receive it. The true testimony of this will be seen in the rapture when God will identify His believers from the pretenders, the wheat from the tares.

[rollinTHUNDER]

Here's another scripture that really fits in nicely as well.

2 Peter 3: 17 - "Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

Mark 9: 34-35 - "But they kept quiet because on the way they had argued about who was the greatest. (35)Sitting down, Jesus called the twelve and said, "If anyone wants to be first, he must be the very last, and the servant of all."

I believe the bride will be the greatest part of the church, and she will be first. She is bringing in the harvest, where the workers are few. The rest of the church haven't yet overcome the world or self, oh but they will later. Since they have put themselves first, they will be last.
_________________

[rollinTHUNDER]

Hi Doulos,
I agree with some of what you said, but not where you misquoted this scripture.


from Doulos:
It is further made clear that the 5 foolish virgins are not believers because the bridegroom tells them, "I never knew you." This is the curse of the unbeliever.

I challenge you to find the word that you highlighted. I have already looked at many versions of the bible, and not one used the word never. He did use it for the unbelievers, but not in this scripture.

[ChopinFan]

The five foolish virgins are obviously backslidden/lukewarm believers.

Matthew 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

Your lamp can't go out unless it burned at one time, right? ;)

It's not a popular truth, but truth nonetheless.

Thank you rollinthunder for having the integrity to post this thread. I have stated the same thing many times. You seem to be making more headway with it though, so good for you! Keep up the good work.

God bless,
chopinfan

[ChopinFan]

Matthew 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

This seems to be a point of contention, so I'll throw my unsolicited two cents worth in.

Here's a thought. When Christ says to them "I know you not". Could it be because of this? :

Ezekiel 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand

Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Ezekiel 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it

Could this be why Christ makes that statement to the foolish virgins?

[Becky]

Mountainrun, this is a Pre-trib board. Any other view is to be voiced in the Rapture Docturine Discussion forum. You will get a warning if you do not post your view over there. Here, we talk Pre-trib which scripture line up best with.

Post-Millennialism does not line up with scripture. If you wish to discuss this further then start a thread in the Rapture Doctrin Discussion Forum.

[skypair]

CHOPINFAN,

Your lamp can't go out unless it burned at one time, right?

Well, believe it or not, you can light a lamp wick and it will burn without oil until the wick itself is consumed. In other words, there was never any "oil"/Holy Spirit within. Try it with any kerosene or oil lamp and tell me what you find out. Fact is, is there is no direct suggestion that the foolish virgins ever had any oil. They had the "lamp"/works and the fire/passion, but no oil.

My thinking is that the foolish virgins are martyrs of the 5th seal who, having "gone and bought" Christ, show up at the door of the wedding in heaven. They think they belong with the "bride" that was taken but Christ denies that they belong in at the wedding where only the bride is (kind of like you not inviting friends and relatives on your honeymoon - or did you?). He does not send them to hell - right? No, we don't see that in Matt 25:1-13 as we do in Matt 25:30 or Matt 25:41. Why? Because they are indeed saved - just not in time to be the bride.

maranatha,
skypair

[ChopinFan]

Skypair,

I respect your opinion on that. For me anyway, the "wick" explanation seems a bit of a reach, but we'll agree to disagree partner.

I do agree with you that the other 5 are the trib saints who will go by way of martyrdom.


Where I disagree with you is why they are trib saints. Let's look

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

They had to go through the trib because their garments were spotted.

Rev . 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy

Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish

II Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

God bless and maranatha to you as well skypair!

[Doulos]

Rollinthunder,

No, you're right. I edited some of my post for length and I think I cut some explanation out that I shouldn't have. Thanks for catching that. That's what I get for staying up so late. :)

The point I'm trying to make though is that those that are saved are foreknown from all eternity. Therefore for Jesus to say "I don't know you" it is tantamount to saying "I never knew you" which is the curse of the unbeliever.

In any case I don't see how it would be possible for Jesus to ever tell a believer that He doesn't know them. Further, I believe that Paul is addressing all believers in 1 Corinthians when he says that "all will be changed."


1 Corinthians 15:50
Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

15:51
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

15:52
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable , and we will be changed.

15:53
For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

[Doulos]

Your quotes don't deal with the knowledge of a person but of their deeds. The point to these verses tells us that you can not accumulate merit by performing righteous deeds.

Where these verses would have some import on the discussion though would be that the 5 foolish virgins are indeed people who perform righteous deeds, but as these verses indicate this is not enough since that does not cover our sins.

[mountainrun]

skypair, Apparently I'm on the wrong forum to answer your question.
You'll have to catch me somewhere there are no restrictions what I say.

[skypair]

chopinfan,

We're not as far apart as you might think. How does one get his/her garments white? "Nothing but the blood of Jesus." as the song goes. That they would have soiled or spotted garments - to me - is evidence that they never received Him. There is no merit on our part that can clean our robes, is there?

maranatha,
skypair

[ChopinFan]

Originally posted by skypair
chopinfan,

We're not as far apart as you might think. How does one get his/her garments white? "Nothing but the blood of Jesus." as the song goes. That they would have soiled or spotted garments - to me - is evidence that they never received Him. There is no merit on our part that can clean our robes, is there?

maranatha,
skypair

Hey Skypair,

Isaiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels


Agreed-nothing but the blood of Jesus. Look at the above verse. When a person gets saved, they receive a "garment" of salvation or a "robe" of righteousness . But when the person continues in sin without repentance , they receive a "spot" on their garment. Remember Christ addressed the "church" (a term which means "called-out" ones ) at Sardis, and commended those who had not "defiled" their garments. That implies that their garments were clean at one time. In light of this view, the other scriptures become more clear such as "without spot or blemish", "hating even the garment spotted by the flesh" "defiled their garments " , "washed their robes", "be diligent to be found without spot and blameless", as I posted earlier.

I agree with you, no amount of good work will merit a white robe, however persistent sin without confession and repentance, will adversely affect the believers spotless condition, placing him/her in jeopardy.

I completely disagree with those who say that this parable applies to Israel and not the church. The command for readiness and watchfulness is to the church. Remember we are virgins waiting for our Lord .

II Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

No, I'm absolutely not a replacement theologian, but this parable just won't make sense if we try to apply it to national Israel and not the church.

And why all of the warnings about watchfulness and readiness, if the rapture is just a foregone conclusion for every believer. That just doesn't make good common sense.

God bless,
chopinfan

[skypair]

CHOPINFAN,

I'm going to have to study those passages you cite - some of them appear to speak of earthly "garments" - the flesh perhaps - rather than the "white raiment," "white robes," or fine linen, clean and white" that we get in heaven. Do you see that?

"without spot or blemish", I Pet 1:19 speaking of Christ, the lamb, and His not having spot or blemish - obviously in His flesh.

"hating even the garment spotted by the flesh" Jude 23 Sounds also like the flesh - you can't save someone "by fear" after they are dead, right? Now clearly the are saved from hell but they the earthly garment/flesh spotted.

"defiled their garments" Rev 3:4 I know you can see how this would apply to the flesh.

"washed their robes", Rev 7:14 This is clearly in heaven but the robes are clearly clean because of Christ - like I contend, believers can't show up in heaven with soiled garments that I know of.

"be diligent to be found without spot and blameless", 2 Pet 3:14 There does seem to be the notion of "spotless" here, but it sounds like sanctification of the flesh again - as Luke 21:36 says "being found worthy to escape all these [trib] things..." Nobody is worthy - we should try to be though. Do you also see that?

See, like Isaiah says, He will have to cover us with a robe of righteousness. We're never going to be able to "add" to what He has done - we're even going to cast any crowns that we may think we deserve at His feet because, in the end, it was none of us!

maranatha,
skypair

[Ltanner09]

Skypair wrote:
Well, believe it or not, you can light a lamp wick and it will burn without oil until the wick itself is consumed. In other words, there was never any "oil"/Holy Spirit within.

Their lamps went out, not their wicks. For their lamps to have gone out they must have shed light at one time.

The wise virgins brought extra oil to refill their lamps, the foolish didn't. All of the lamps were originally full.

The practice was to burn the lamps all night and the lamps of the foolish were going out as the bridegroom came.

A wick will not burn all night by itself.

[skypair]

tanner,

All you need to do is show me where the passage specifically says they had oil. My Bible says the foolish "took no oil with them." (25:3) And there is therefore, no proof that they ever had any.

maranatha,
skypair

[Ltanner09]

My Bible says the foolish "took no oil with them." (25:3) And there is therefore, no proof that they ever had any.

The 5 foolish stated "our lamps HAVE GONE OUT".

They didn't say "oops, forgot the oil and can't get the lamp on".

For their lamps to have "gone out" means they had to have been on.
The 5 wise brought oil with them (in addition to what was already IN the lamps).

The parable is about preparedness, not the 5 foolish being a type of martyr, as you somehow believe.

[Doulos]

You can't just take licence with a parable and imply things from it not specifically mentioned. If indeed oil represents the Holy Spirit only in this passage then why would the foolish virgins be told to "purchase" it. Clearly the Holy Spirit is not to be purchased, nor any spiritual thing from the Lord.

The foolish virgins had an appearance of godliness. This is why they had a burning lamp. But, that lamp did not have the oil to get them to the wedding feast. I believe why the foolish virgins are not mentioned as having oil is to make it clear that they did not have the Spirit in any fashion despite their apparent godliness which is signified by the burning lamp.

[lookingup]

Originally posted by Doulos
The foolish virgins had an appearance of godliness. This is why they had a burning lamp. But, that lamp did not have the oil to get them to the wedding feast. I believe why the foolish virgins are not mentioned as having oil is to make it clear that they did not have the Spirit in any fashion despite their apparent godliness which is signified by the burning lamp.
Hi Doulos,

I agree with this part of your post. These 10 virgins seem to mirror very well the last 2 churches mentioned in Rev. 3. The church of Philadelphia (brotherly love) is raptured, while the church of Laodicea is left behind to "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."

The Laodicea church is an unsaved church without the Godhead. This is evidenced in the fact that they were necked (not clothed with Christ), did not have eye salve anointing (the Holy Spirit), nor did they have G-d the Father (Gold). You do not vomit up that which is a part of yourself, only that which your body cannot assimilate to become a part of you. This church goes through the tribulation (tried in the fire).

Look at how many Christians today have never even obeyed Acts 2:38 for the remission of sins and gift of the Holy Spirit. They know only of the sinner’s prayer (conception, Passover, etc.) but have not come to the place of new birth (crossing of the red sea, etc.) Look at this in Paul’s life. He had been saying the sinners prayer for 3 days, but in Acts 22:16 we are told that he still had his sins and that he needed to arise (get off his knees) and obey the Gospel (Rom. 6:17; 2 Thess. 1:8; 1 Pet. 4:17). Jesus told him in Acts 9:6 to, "go into the city, and it shall be told thee WHAT THOU MUST DO."

We are told in 2 Peter 2:1-3 that many or most (see the Greek) Christians (among you) will actually SPEAK EVIL OF THE WAY OF TRUTH (salvation doctrine) and will follow damnable heresies. Damnable heresies are heresies that send people to Hell. This is what the majority or many will be following. Jesus warned us in Matthew 7 that many who call Him Lord on the Day of Judgment who believed they were casting out demons in His name, and prophesying in His name and doing many mighty works in His name He will say I NEVER KNEW YOU. These people had never been saved; they had never had the oil.

G-d help us!
In Christ.

[rollinTHUNDER]

Originally posted by Doulos
If indeed oil represents the Holy Spirit only in this passage then why would the foolish virgins be told to "purchase" it. Clearly the Holy Spirit is not to be purchased, nor any spiritual thing from the Lord.

The foolish virgins had an appearance of godliness. This is why they had a burning lamp. But, that lamp did not have the oil to get them to the wedding feast. I believe why the foolish virgins are not mentioned as having oil is to make it clear that they did not have the Spirit in any fashion despite their apparent godliness which is signified by the burning lamp.

Hi Doulos,
I believe that the foolish ones failed to obey, persevere and overcome. How can you overcome the world if you are part of it?? We are in the world, but not of it. To be holy is to be set apart, or called out of. Now they will have to purchase it from those who sell it in the world.

Their salvation won't be free like it is for us. They will have to trust and have faith in the blood of the lamb, but they will also have to give their own blood. The five wise virgins told the foolish ones to go and buy oil from those who sell it. If someone waits to this point to surrender, it will no longer be free. They will pay a very high price for something we got free in the Age of Grace, but theirs will be in the tribulation. They will have only three choices. (1) Take the mark and be doomed, (2) Reject the mark and be martyred, or (3) try to survive until the King of Kings returns. It is interesting to note : that most people I talk to about it, and ask them what they would do if they were left behind?? Most are going to try to hide out and survive. Some even want to buy guns and store up food. I believe choice #3 is the natural choice, but it is made by the natural mind, not the spiritual mind.

I would never attempt to do #3. First of all, 1/2 of the whole worlds population will be killed by plagues, war, famine and wild beasts, so the odds of surviving are not very good. And secondly, and this is the part that I would really not like, but if they do happen to survive that long, they will then have to enter into the new millenium in their same old mortal bodies, and that is only if they are considered to be sheep and not goats by the Judge. I would much rather take choice #2 and give my head.

The Holy Spirit will not try to hold back the beast in the tribulation. The Age of Grace will be finished, and God will use Satans wrath to punish the unbelieving Jews and unbelieving Gentiles. This wrath will test all those who live on the earth at that time, including the trib saints, who either didn't believe in Christ before or they did believe but didn't surrender to the will of God and separate from the world. This will be the moment of truth. They will now be forced to surrender their lives, or forever be separated from God. Blessed is he who surrenders now and crucifies his flesh. There is nothing in this world that is worth dying for. This world is passing away, along with everthing in it.

The five wise virgins are being tested and purified now. These are the ones who will be first in the kingdom, not because they are better than the others, but because they made the choice to serve Him on their own, without having the gun to their heads. This shows their love for Him. Jesus said, "If you love me you will obey me." Jesus will be coming for a bride that loves Him.

He who has perfect vision is said to have 20/20 vision. Read Matt. 20: 20-28 and let the reader understand. Also read Matt. 19: 29-30.

[skypair]

tanner,

For their lamps to have "gone out" means they had to have been on.

Tanner, the issue is the oil - whether a lamp or a wick can burn is superfluous to the debate. The oil is the Holy Spirit - they didn't have any. To presume that they had some in their lamps is just that - presumptuous. Matt 25:3 says "no oil" and I believer Matthew.

maranatha,
skypair

[skypair]

rolinTHUNDER,

Great comments! I really like the part about having to "buy" the oil - same comment I have about the servants "compelling" the "guests" (not bride) to come into the wedding feast, Luke 14:23, as they preach during the trib. Christ gives some pretty significant nuances to is parables and we need to think about each and every detail.

maranatha,
skypair

[Ltanner09]

You can't just take licence with a parable and imply things from it not specifically mentioned. If indeed oil represents the Holy Spirit only in this passage then why would the foolish virgins be told to "purchase" it. Clearly the Holy Spirit is not to be purchased, nor any spiritual thing from the Lord.

I'm not the one implying the oil represents the HS.


Matthew 25:9 (KJV)
But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

There are no "them that sell" the Holy Spirit.

[Ltanner09]

The oil is the Holy Spirit - they didn't have any. To presume that they had some in their lamps is just that - presumptuous. Matt 25:3 says "no oil" and I believer Matthew

Sky, you continue to spiritualize scriupture and lose it's meaning, in the process twisting scripture to mean what you want it to.

The parable deals with the 2nd coming, not the rapture.

The 5 foolish cannot buy the Holy Spirit as there is no "them" that sell it.

Thre Holy Spirit cannot be bought or sold.

[Doulos]

I'm not implying that the oil in this parable represents the Holy Spirit, but I did suggest that this may be the case since this is the most common interpretation. In fact oil is so commonly symbolically interpreted as being the Holy Spirit that I think any other interpretation would require an explanation. Also, since this is a parable, it must be spiritualized. That's what a parable is all about.

This however is secondary to the issue. What we are dealing with is whether the 5 foolish virgins are saved. The fact that Jesus tells them that He doesn't know them should settle this issue all by itself. If it doesn't in your mind then please enlighten me as to your interpretation of this.

[Doulos]

From your last post I couldn't be sure if you believe the 5 foolish virgins are saved in the parable or not. Everything else I can get on board with that you said.

[Ltanner09]

What we are dealing with is whether the 5 foolish virgins are saved. The fact that Jesus tells them that He doesn't know them should settle this issue all by itself. If it doesn't in your mind then please enlighten me as to your interpretation of this.

If the 5 foolish were saved, they wouldn't be told "I know you NOT".

Skypair believes the 5 foolish are martyred trib saints, who are locked out of the wedding.

Ridiculous.

The 10 virgins are nothing more than 10 virgins, not churches.
The oil in the lamps is nothing more than oil, not the HS, as the Holy Spirit cannot be bought or sold.

The issue is preparedness for the 2nd coming, not the rapture.

But, I've been round and round on this with Skypair, who insists there are "them that sell" the Holy spirit.

[skypair]

tanner,

This almost seems too easy but apparently you know as little about lamps as the foolish virgins :eek Lamps need oil but wicks will burn for a whle.

And as Doulos said, the oil is the common symbol in scripture for the Holy Spirit so you must begin there with the interpretation.

As to "I know you not." scripture tells us that if one does not have the Spirit "he is none of His," Rom 8:9. THAT is what Christ is saying in this verse because it is patently clear that in any other regard He knows all of us. He has numbered the very hairs on our heads! All He is saying in Matt 25 is that these 5 were "none of His."

As someone has mentioned on this or another board, the Holy Spirit can't be bought but you can end up paying for it with your life if you go into the trib an unbeliever and convert. Also read Rev 3:18 - do you think that Laodicea can "buy" white raiment? gold? eyesalve? Again, the idea is that they will pay for them dearly with their lives.

Sky, you continue to spiritualize scriupture and lose it's meaning, in the process twisting scripture to mean what you want it to.

OR I could just be finding some truth that you have not discovered and that does not fit into your personal paradigm - and that wouldn't worry me too much. As most including Doulos seem to agree, oil is not just oil but the Holy Spirit. If just that one point is truth, then it is you that have missed the meaning.

maranatha,
skypair

[Doulos]

I haven't taken a final position on the timing of end-time events yet so I can't really debate whether this parable refers to the second comming or the rapture unless I simply adopt a position for the sake of exploring it. Although, I do think it possible that the second comming and the rapture could be part of the same prophetic event even though it is separated by time which is called the Day of the Lord.

I don't believe this would not be inconsistant with previously fulfilled prophecy. Most people immediatly reject this idea since they believe the Day of the Lord to be a literal day, but I don't think this is possible given all that is prophecied concerning this Day.

[rollinTHUNDER]

Originally posted by Ltanner09


Matthew 25:9 (KJV)
But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

There are no "them that sell" the Holy Spirit.

I have a lot of catching up to do. I've been pretty busy lately, but I'll try to get up extra early. One quick note here:

The wise virgins had their oil, and told the foolish ones to go buy theirs.

I believe the wise got their oil free, in the age of grace,
but the foolish will have to buy theirs in the tribulation.
The payment will be their heads combined with their
testimony of Christ and refusing the mark of the beast.

[rollinTHUNDER]

Originally posted by Doulos
Rollinthunder,

No, you're right. I edited some of my post for length and I think I cut some explanation out that I shouldn't have. Thanks for catching that. That's what I get for staying up so late. :)

The point I'm trying to make though is that those that are saved are foreknown from all eternity. Therefore for Jesus to say "I don't know you" it is tantamount to saying "I never knew you" which is the curse of the unbeliever.

In any case I don't see how it would be possible for Jesus to ever tell a believer that He doesn't know them. Further, I believe that Paul is addressing all believers in 1 Corinthians when he says that "all will be changed."


1 Corinthians 15:50
Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

15:51
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

15:52
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable , and we will be changed.

15:53
For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Hello Doulos,
I have posted this thread on five different forums. I think this, "I never knew you thing came up in all but one of them. I think it is good thinking, but once you go and take a closer look, you can see that the words are different, and I believe the meaning is as well, but the other word (know) is also very interesting. It hasn't come up, so I will try to shed some new light on it as well.

I like how He left out the word (never) here. At the judgment, he tells the unbelievers, "I never knew you." But at the coming for His bride that word is missing completely. He tells the five foolish virgins, "I know you not", which more than likely means at that moment (rapture). Another interesting point to back this up is the (first three words) of this chapter.

Matt. 25: 1 - "At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like..............". It is also very interesting to note that this is the only Parable that starts off with the words (At that time).

Also the word "know" was used in a way that we don't use it today. They used it as meaning : intimate or intimately. For instance = Mary was found to be with child, but she knew not a man. She was not intimate with any man, but yet she was with child.

At that time, we must know Him, and we must be in Him and Him in us. We must not forget our first love. We must be living for Him, and serving Him. The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. These workers will be first in the kingdom of heaven, because they were willing servants, the others only surrender when they are forced to make the choice, so they will be last or least in the kingdom.

The word "all" is not defined and very vague. All can mean many things, but it really doesn't describe who and I don't believe Paul was trying to show who, but when. I believe that you must look at the other scriptures to find the "who".

We must always have oil on hand and be ready, watching and waiting!! I believe the scriptures are telling us that the ones who willingly serve Him and overcome the world will be the ones to be raptured. The ones who didn't become entangled with the trappings of this world, but I also believe that the five foolish virgins will also be saved. Many try to turn this into a salvation issue. I believe it is about the rapture, where the bridegroom comes to get His faithful bride. This bride won't be like Eve, and she won't be like spiritual Israel who was not faithful. This bride will be pure.

[rollinTHUNDER]

Originally posted by Doulos
From your last post I couldn't be sure if you believe the 5 foolish virgins are saved in the parable or not. Everything else I can get on board with that you said.

Yes, I believe the five foolish virgins will also be saved. The only thing is, they won't go in the rapture. We can very easily see that in the book of Revelations, after the rapture many more are receiving salvation and holding onto their testimony of Christ. I believe that because they didn't cling to there first love, they put themselves first or were chasing after worldly things. Since they put themselves first, they will be last in the kingdom of heaven, or least if you will. Some may not fall into this category, but the ones that don't, they too, for whatever reason were not in Christ at the time of His coming for His bride, maybe they didn't believe at all, or maybe they hadn't even heard the gospel message yet, or maybe they did believe and were backslidden.

[CGTech]

rollin' buddy, that is one of the best threads I have read in several months (which is about the time I have been looking (lurkin'?) about these boards.

Makes me realize just how unworthy I am to be taken. When I stand back and look at my life and my "Christian" practice, I don't think "I" would take me out of here, so I do wonder why the Lord would.

Just have to keep praying and get back on track.

[skypair]

rollin'

Good analysis! All I can add is this: oil is not a question of backsliding or losing one's first love. If a person is born again, he/she goes. I think you agree but just were not wanting to get into that an issue though I feel it is extremely important doctrinally.

Thanks,

maranatha,
skypair

[rollinTHUNDER]

Originally posted by skypair
rollin'

Good analysis! All I can add is this: oil is not a question of backsliding or losing one's first love. If a person is born again, he/she goes. I think you agree but just were not wanting to get into that an issue though I feel it is extremely important doctrinally.

Thanks,

maranatha,
skypair

Hello skypair,
If a believer is in the backslidden state, he is not shining his light. He may still believe in Jesus, but even the demons believe that. Such a christian will be caught not watching, and not persevering. He is chasing after the cares of this life, which is not the life of christ. This christian is out of gas, or oil. Jesus said that a backslider is like a dog turning back for his own vomit. The Jews in those days called the Gentile unbelievers dogs. Maybe we should also remember what happened to Lot's wife when she turned back.

I believe the scriptures are telling us that we must hold on to our testimony of Christ and be faithful witnesses to the very end. Why else would He tell us to keep watch, be alert and to not be caught off guard?? Because it sounds good maybe?? Surely not, that would turn His words into mere rubbish, and nullify too many scriptures.

If we run out of oil, then our lights will be snuffed out.

[tindercrest]

Rollingthunder I know your posts have been a great encouragement to me,I was a prodical.I agree with you on most of your post, I would just like to say the new and the weak, will all go in the rapture, not just the mature. Yes the mature have left the world and all it`s trappings, but the new believers have a young love for the LORD JESUS ,and they are just as saved as we older christians. I would just say there are no other requirements, for being the bride other than the indwelling of the HOLY SPIRIT. real christians vs.not.Thank you for your hard work on our behalf. No,dought you wrote such a lenghty discussion for our benefit.Love to the bretheren,tindercrest ps JESUS is the the one who knows our hearts,alone.

[skypair]

tindercrest,

My sentiments exactly. Anyone who has been a Christian for any time at all knows that we all "backslide" but that does not make us "unsaved." God cannot deny Himself, 2 Tim 2:13! We do not lose our oil nor our light - our lamps are still "at the ready" because we have oil and if I was to hazzard a guess, we believers would all "light up" our lamps when we hear the midnight cry - the last trump!

maranatha,
skypair

[rollinTHUNDER]

Originally posted by tindercrest
Rollingthunder I know your posts have been a great encouragement to me,I was a prodical.I agree with you on most of your post, I would just like to say the new and the weak, will all go in the rapture, not just the mature. Yes the mature have left the world and all it`s trappings, but the new believers have a young love for the LORD JESUS ,and they are just as saved as we older christians. I would just say there are no other requirements, for being the bride other than the indwelling of the HOLY SPIRIT. real christians vs.not.Thank you for your hard work on our behalf. No,dought you wrote such a lenghty discussion for our benefit.Love to the bretheren,tindercrest ps JESUS is the the one who knows our hearts,alone.

Hello tindercrest,
Thanks for your encouraging words. I don't recall saying though, that only the mature will go in the rapture. This is a good point you bring up though, and I wonder how many others have thought the same. I believe the Lord will judge us according to what we know. I don't think He would hold us accountible for things we had no way of knowing.

KJV - Luke 12: 46-48 - "The Lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for Him, and at an hour he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (pieces), and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. (47)And that servant, which knew his Lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. (48)But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required; and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

NIV - verse 48 - "But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." - - I would read starting from verse 35 actually, but for the sake of keeping this short, I shortened it.

I believe that the babes in Christ that are still nursing will pretty much have a free ride because they don't know much. The problem arises when one does know, and then willingly disobeys.

I think it is very interesting that verse 46 plainly shows that they will be assigned a place with the unbelievers, and cut in pieces. If someone takes your head off, you would definitely be in pieces, two to be exact.

[ChopinFan]

Luke 12 is proof positive that backslidden believers will end up in the tribulation (or worse) if they are not living for the LORD when He returns. Also look at this:

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation

Let's turn this verse around, and see how it reads: Unto them that DO NOT look for Him........................

That tells me not EVERYONE is going to partake of this blessed experience.

Why on earth would we have ALL the exhortations to "watch", "be sober", "be ready", etc. etc. etc. if it were a moot point?

Common objections to the "partial" rapture are that there should be no "division" of the body. But that is a weak argument since part of the church is already in heaven, while we are still here now. Does that constitute a "division"? Absolutely not. That verse is dealing with contention between the saints. We must keep in mind that Christ loved all of his disciples and yet James, Peter, and John were the "inner circle"- by their choice!

A side note to this: It's interesting that the mount of transfiguration experience was only for those 3 disciples and Christ. We know this parable to be a type of the rapture (with Moses and Elijah representing the "dead in Christ-Moses" and the "raptured saints-Elijah". The other disciples, though still greatly loved were called a "faithless generation" when the others were come down from the mount.

[skypair]

CHOPINFAN, rollin,

Actually, Luke 12 is about those living in the tribulation at Christ's return and not about Christians before the rapture. You see in that verse the "rod of iron" that Christ is prophesied to rule the MK with. There will be unbelievers (12:46) who will be cut asunder/slain "with the unbelievers" and believers (12:47) that weren't looking for the His return that will be punished but continue into the MK. Do you see it?

maranatha,
skypair

[lookingup]

Originally posted by skypair
CHOPINFAN, rollin,

Actually, Luke 12 is about those living in the tribulation at Christ's return and not about Christians before the rapture. You see in that verse the "rod of iron" that Christ is prophesied to rule the MK with. There will be unbelievers (12:46) who will be cut asunder/slain "with the unbelievers" and believers (12:47) that weren't looking for the His return that will be punished but continue into the MK. Do you see it?

maranatha,
skypair

Well put Skypair,

Verse 36 of Luke 12 makes this even more clear:
"And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately."
This verse say's, "when he will return from the wedding". He is not returning from the wedding for HIs bride or she missed the wedding.

In Christ.

[rollinTHUNDER]

Originally posted by skypair
CHOPINFAN, rollin,

Actually, Luke 12 is about those living in the tribulation at Christ's return and not about Christians before the rapture. You see in that verse the "rod of iron" that Christ is prophesied to rule the MK with. There will be unbelievers (12:46) who will be cut asunder/slain "with the unbelievers" and believers (12:47) that weren't looking for the His return that will be punished but continue into the MK. Do you see it?

maranatha,
skypair

Hi skypair,
The second coming will not come like a thief in the night. All the nations will see Him coming, and we will be with Him, but when this does happen, there will be no reclining at the table. Neither will the wicked unbelievers be cut, they will be thrown into the fire.

Also, the Lord will not dress himself to serve these martyrs when He returns, He will be dressed for battle. He won't be coming to dine. He will be coming to judge.

The only people that the Lord will serve is the ones who chose of their own free will to serve Him. When the banquet is ready, He will be leaving there and come to get us. This is the rapture. I don't think you're even remotely close here, but I do appreciate your input. It is causing me to learn even more.

[ChopinFan]

I might add this:

I'm always concerned as to why people oppose the partial rapture so vehemently. Perhaps, it is out of concern for those who are "weaker" in the faith. Or perhaps it is because they are holding on to some "pet" sin that they've convinced themselves won't hold them back when the trumpet sounds.

Remember the scriptures state that over 500 people witnessed Christ's resurrected body, and no doubt heard the COMMAND not to depart from Jerusalem until the Spirit descended. It's interesting that even though at least 500 received that charge, we only hear of 120 obedient souls that actually tarried there.

Out of 12 apostles, only 3 made it to Jairus' house, the mount of transfiguration, and went farther to pray in the garden of Gethsemene.

Statistics have shown that only about 25 % of the church body actually supports the work of the ministry with their financial giving (tithes/offerings, etc.).

Out of the 7 churches of Revelation...only 1 is promised a "rapture" or open door if you prefer that terminology.

Just some random thoughts.

[skypair]

lookingup

Thanks for that! I usually carry my electronic Bible with me when I go to work/fly but that day I didn't have it to point out the details of my argument even though I was very familiar with the passage.

CHOPINFAN

Lack of active Christianity is lamentable, it is true. However, I have an idea that Christ took the same 3 disciples aside to be witnesses to 5 events in order to show us the last days church. They were

1) called from fishing (revival) where the net was bursting with fish (converts - resembles our age) -

2) only the 3 witnesses Christ raising the 12 yr old daughter of the temple priest (this would symbolize Israel's restoration as a nation - she is not dead but "merely sleepeth")

3) These 3 alone witnessed the transfiguration without dying first (Christ's return) -

4) These 3 alone were taken to Gesthemane to watch and pray while Christ prayed above = in heaven now (His command for us especially in the last times) -

5) InGal 2:9, these 3 (Peter is actually referred to as Cephas in the passage) were called "pillars" of the church (same as Philly in Rev).

Ever seen that?

maranatha,
skypair

[rollinTHUNDER]

Originally posted by CHOPINFAN
[B]I might add this:

I'm always concerned as to why people oppose the partial rapture so vehemently. Perhaps, it is out of concern for those who are "weaker" in the faith. Or perhaps it is because they are holding on to some "pet" sin that they've convinced themselves won't hold them back when the trumpet sounds.


Hello CHOPINFAN,
I want to thank you too for all your help here too. I'm not very good at debating. I'm not even real sure I was called to debate, but the Lord did tell me when I got saved that I was going to write for Him, but I thought He meant I would write songs for Him. I thought that because I offered to sing for Him if he took my shyness away. I was about to get my old band back together again, and I was the lead singer. I wasn't expecting to get saved, but when it happened I knew the band was finished. I had to drink a few beers to get enough confidence to sing, and that's why I asked the Lord to remove my shyness. Anyway, immediately after I offered to sing for Him, He answered me. He said, "No, you're going to write." It was stupid me that thought I was going to write songs, but He never said anything about songs. I was assuming. But about a year later, He did give me a song. It was good, but I never got to use it. I think He was just trying to give me hope or something. I had no earthly idea He was going to use me the way He is now. After that song, He didn't give me anything to write for about ten years. Suddenly, about three weeks after 9-11, everything started to change. God has very faithfully kept His word, and I didn't even ask to be a writer. I could only type with one finger (still do), I