Am I guilty of murder?

[browneyedgirl]

I'm an RN. Recently I had a work experience that was new for me. I had a patient with an anoxic brain injury who was technically brain dead. The family withdrew support. When the ventilator was removed the patient began breathing on her own. After several hours her respirations began to slow, but then they leveled off again. This happened several times with the respirations becoming slower each time. Periodically I had to administer morphine and ativan to keep the patient relaxed so that her family didn't have to see her gasping for air...the morphine also slows respirations. The patient had another episode where her respirations slowed. It was time for more morphine and ativan, so I pushed the meds. She died just a few seconds after I pushed the meds. My question is this...do you think I'm guilty of her death in God's eyes? I know that the meds hastened her death.

[CJL]

I don't think you are. The decision was made by the family to let the person die. You pushing the medications were just doing your job, making the person's last moments here on earth as comfortable as possible. Remember, God knows your heart. In your heart, you did not want that person to die.

God Bless you and keep you.

ybiC,
CJL

[roadrunner570]

I'm an RN. Recently I had a work experience that was new for me. I had a patient with an anoxic brain injury who was technically brain dead. The family withdrew support. When the ventilator was removed the patient began breathing on her own. After several hours her respirations began to slow, but then they leveled off again. This happened several times with the respirations becoming slower each time. Periodically I had to administer morphine and ativan to keep the patient relaxed so that her family didn't have to see her gasping for air...the morphine also slows respirations. The patient had another episode where her respirations slowed. It was time for more morphine and ativan, so I pushed the meds. She died just a few seconds after I pushed the meds. My question is this...do you think I'm guilty of her death in God's eyes? I know that the meds hastened her death.

This is a difficult one. In my opinion, based on what you've said here, death was inevitable for this patient anyway. You were doing the best you could to make him comfortable, but in the process the meds were too much. So he could have died later, but been in much more pain, or died sooner but in no pain. Your intention from what you said was not to kill the patient. You weren't trying to euthanize him, but were trying to keep him comfortable. One someone that close to death, it doesn't take a whole lot. That is my thoughts. I hope that helps. Either way, take some time and pray about this, give it to God.

[browneyedgirl]

Maybe I should add that I knew the patient was getting close to death, so I went to the family representative who had power of attorney for the patient (this person was also an RN, so she knew exactly what was going on). I specifically asked this person if they wanted me to administer more meds right then and they said yes. She said that she felt it would "ease the way" for the patient and help her to let go.

[Servant]

Maybe I should add that I knew the patient was getting close to death, so I went to the family representative who had power of attorney for the patient (this person was also an RN, so she knew exactly what was going on). I specifically asked this person if they wanted me to administer more meds right then and they said yes. She said that she felt it would "ease the way" for the patient and help her to let go.

:hug I can "see" that you are agonizing over this, I'm so sorry. :pray

[hapimom98]

Oh, sweetie, I am so sorry you had to experience this. :hug

[Paidfor]

You were easing the suffering of the patient and the family. You did nothing wrong.

[Literalist-Luke]

Maybe I should add that I knew the patient was getting close to death, so I went to the family representative who had power of attorney for the patient (this person was also an RN, so she knew exactly what was going on). I specifically asked this person if they wanted me to administer more meds right then and they said yes. She said that she felt it would "ease the way" for the patient and help her to let go.You were clearly carrying out your medical duty and doing precisely what you were supposed to do. You had no wish for the person to die. You were motivated by the fact that you cared about this person and wanted what was best for them given the situation at hand.

I certainly understand how this would be very difficult to sort through, and you'll definitely need to give yourself some time to do so. Feeling sad about it is certainly appropriate, but I don't see where you did anything even slightly improper. There is a big difference between feeling sad about what happened and feeling guilty. Give yourself permission to feel sad. A lost life is always appropriate to grieve over, there's nothing wrong with that. But if you have any feelings of guilt, ask yourself what would have happened if you hadn't administered the medication, and then tell that guilt to "get thee behind me".

Have you considered discussing this with your supervisor? I'm sure that hearing from your superior that your actions were wholly appropriate will make it easier to sort through it.

[frisian1970]

You were easing the suffering of the patient and the family. You did nothing wrong.

Is it more moral to prolong suffering or cause it to cease?

Had an interesting ethics class on euthanasia.

[igglet]

I was a critical-care RN for 8 years. Been there, done that. And no, I don't think it's murder at all. Brain death = death in the eyes of the law, and having seen it many times I strongly believe that person is truly gone at that point. What you are describing sounds like an agonal breathing pattern, which can be reflexive.
:hug

[Proudmommy]

Actually, you should be thanked. My DH's sister took ill suddenly, from what they think was meningitis, within a short period of time she was braindead. They decided to with draw life support from her, and the doctors told them that they would give her morphine if she started gasping (they called it fish breathing.) The nurse on duty let her go a very long time w/o it and then basically chastised her family, telling them she wouldn't help to kill her. My DH's dad had to get really angry to get another nurse. It wasn't fair to them what that nurse did.

[Kem]

I am also an RN and attended a Christian ethics class on this very thing. It is two different things to administer pain medication to ease someone's pain and to administer pain medication to kill them. The dosage may be the same and the outcome may be the same but the intent is what matters. :hug

[Mountain Girl]

If I'm ever in that shape, I want a nurse just like you at my bedside. (())

[cinlynn]

God knows exactly what happened.. and, He knows your heart. :hug

[watchman]

Look at the same argument in a different set of circumstance to compare.

A person has suffered kidney failure, and is in the last stages of cancer. There is no means for dialysis.

The person is very thirsty, and you keep providing water/ The water will create edema, and likely electrolyte imbalance as the body cannot eliminate excess water or toxins, which result in strong thirst.

Providing water hastens their death, while providing some comfort.

Do you provide the water?

I would.

As others have said, when someone is this close to death, you are providing comfort, you certainly will not be able to prevent it.

Give it to G-d and let Him give you peace.

[head1982]

I'm an RN. Recently I had a work experience that was new for me. I had a patient with an anoxic brain injury who was technically brain dead. The family withdrew support. When the ventilator was removed the patient began breathing on her own. After several hours her respirations began to slow, but then they leveled off again. This happened several times with the respirations becoming slower each time. Periodically I had to administer morphine and ativan to keep the patient relaxed so that her family didn't have to see her gasping for air...the morphine also slows respirations. The patient had another episode where her respirations slowed. It was time for more morphine and ativan, so I pushed the meds. She died just a few seconds after I pushed the meds. My question is this...do you think I'm guilty of her death in God's eyes? I know that the meds hastened her death.

If in your Heart you didn't wish the Death of this person (In your post you certainly don't seem to :laugh), then you are not guilty by the law of God, yet as Christians we are to examine our hearts before God and be clean if any sin is there for we are not judged by the law because of Jesus sacrifice on the Cross.

God Knows exactly what happened, and you just could have been an instrument in His Hands to help this person die.

in the Human and medical law you are subject to, i really don't know so i'l just :tape now

God Bless

[humbleone]

and the doctors told them that they would give her morphine if she started gasping (they called it fish breathing.)

Why do they gasp for air? What causes that?

I am very sorry for all of this, to the original poster. My brother died from an anoxic brain injury after a terrible car accident. But his heart slowed down and then stopped, and then they removed the ventilator.... so he was gone. No attempts to breathe or anything. I think all of this is just so distressing and so sad.... for all involved.

[Proudmommy]

:noidea

[IbeleiveinJesus]

My question is this...do you think I'm guilty of her death in God's eyes? I know that the meds hastened her death.

No, I don't.. If I were ever in that situation, I hope I have someone as kind and compassionate as you taking care of me. I Pray the Lord brings you Peace in this matter :pray..

-Ted

[Live4Jesus]

No, I don't think you are. You did what was needed to make this person's passing comfortable. I pray God's peace upon you. Rest in Him.

[LisaAnn]

It seems to me that if this person was on a ventilator then it is possible that their appointed time to die was interfeared with by man. They were living on borrowed time that they wouldent have had naturally if it had happened 100 years ago. It sounds to me that you did the right and compassionate thing. :hug

[Duchess]

Before my grandmother died, her body was wracked by continuous seizures. When she was administered morphine, there is no doubt in my mind that it relaxed her body, allowing her to die. It didn't cause her death, it just eased her way.

[Gary]

I'm an RN. Recently I had a work experience that was new for me. I had a patient with an anoxic brain injury who was technically brain dead. The family withdrew support. When the ventilator was removed the patient began breathing on her own. After several hours her respirations began to slow, but then they leveled off again. This happened several times with the respirations becoming slower each time. Periodically I had to administer morphine and ativan to keep the patient relaxed so that her family didn't have to see her gasping for air...the morphine also slows respirations. The patient had another episode where her respirations slowed. It was time for more morphine and ativan, so I pushed the meds. She died just a few seconds after I pushed the meds. My question is this...do you think I'm guilty of her death in God's eyes? I know that the meds hastened her death.

I don't think you can be guilty of killing someone who is already dead.

[BHiles]

I hope not because I did the same thing for my mother who was dying of Cancer and she was not brain dead and said she was ready to go home. We then removed bypap and gave morphine to keep her from the distress of gasping.

Pr 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

[SusieQ]

We were advised to give my dad morphine to ease any pain during the last hours of his life. He was given very big doses during that period. We didn't want him to suffer and at that point, he wasn't able to tell us if he was in pain. Just give any doubt and worries you have to God and feel His peace. I feel no guilt at all over our decision for dad. There was no doubt he was in his last hours and he was going to die. I am sure the large doses brought his death a little quicker, but I don't have a problem with that, and I don't believe God does either. I also didn't do it to ease our suffering (waiting and watching our dad die was agonizing), but totally did it to ease his.

BHile~good scripture reference.

[KathyS]

Oh bowneyedgirl I feel for you. I am also an RN and have been in this situation several times. I give the medication so that the suffering is lessened. I also did this for my dh who was dying of Lung cancer. I could not sit there and let him gasp for air and have our childern watch him that way. I can tell you that for myself I feel that we are doing what God wants and please don't feel guilty about it.
If you want to talk about it with someone who has been there please PM me anytime.

[Medic911]

What's the old saying?

Oh yeah, Jesus said it:
"Do unto others as others would do unto you."

Would you have wanted the same done for you? I would assume so. Any sane person would (particularly a believer, who knows that a better life awaits you).

If so, you are following one of the two "greatest commandments" upon which all of the rest are based: Love your neighbor as yourself.
He taught us the spirit of the Law, when He explained that all of the Law hinged upon this simple concept.

Sure, we have to be careful not to take this too far, and to apply common sense to this. For instance, a masochist can't go around inflicting pain upon others. A suicidal person can't go around killing others. Et cetera. But I think that in your case, you were simply comforting someone who was naturally dying. I would hate to live in a world in which pain medications are withheld from dying patients, for fear of possibly hastening their death! I sure wouldn't want to be the patient in such a world! Even Solomon in the Proverbs said to give "strong drink" to those who are dying. (Proverbs 31:6)


"Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts."
Prov. 31:6