People who are born intersexed...

[HiLaReE320]

I was watching Oprah today, and, I know, it's OPRAH so don't take what goes on her show seriously... But today she was interviewing people who were born intersexed (previously known as hermaphrodite), NOT transgendered... That's different....

One "girl" that was on there was a young woman who looked totally female, very pretty, but she was born with testes and XY chromosomes (the male set), but I think she also had a "woman part, she said she did on the show though I'm not sure if she was born with it or if it was surgically created. She had no uterus and could obviously not have kids... The only thing was that her body made very little to no testosterone so she never developed male characteristics and female ones instead. It was called some sort of disease, I think Androgen Suppresant Syndrom? Something like that.. She's never been on hormones or anything, and she lives as a straight woman.. Has a boyfriend and all.

Another guest was born with XX chromosomes (the female set), but was born with a "male part". She was raised male, but inside always felt female. She lived as a man until age 30, and even got married to a woman, thinking that would help her (or him) become more of a man, but divorced after only a year. Now, she lives as a woman. She never said what sexual orientation she was, but I'm assuming she likes men, although she also can't have kids....

ANYWAYS my question is.. What in the WORLD are these people supposed to do, from a godly perspective? I mean, if you are biologically MALE (XY) but you look and act like a woman.. Are you a woman or a man? If you live as a woman and marry a man, are you gay and in sin?

I'm just so confused because I know while this isn't an extremely common condition, there are people that have to deal with it and I just don't know... Should this person never marry??? If not, that just doesn't seem fair.....

This is one of those things where I'm like... God, what are you thinking? Why would you do something like this to someone?? My heart really went out to the people on stage because it has to be a real struggle to not KNOW what you're "supposed" to be.

And again, I'm NOT talking about transgendered people who are biologically one sex (parts and all), but FEEL like a different sex.

Any thoughts or comments?? :confused

[garvsgrl]

First of all why blame God? Have you forgotten we live in a fallen world where sickness, deformities, and a host of other things plague us. I have watched shows about this problem and way back when the parents would decide what they wanted the baby to be and that was a mistake because the kids would sometimes grow up with the opposite feelings. I think now days they wait until the child starts showing which gender it is or wait until they can make that decision.

IN HIM

[Literalist-Luke]

OK, several things:

First of all, we, the Church, make WAY too big a deal out of sexual sin these days. (Or maybe I should state the flip side instead - we, the Church, make WAY too little a deal out of all the other sins these days.) I know, I know, God told Moses that sexual sin is an “abomination”. Well, so are the others. Whether its homosexuality, stealing, lying, or whatever that gets you in Hell, it’s still gonna be just as unpleasant. And I’m not trying to get onto you, Hilary, there nothing wrong with you bringing this up, it’s actually a very interesting question. I just think that sometimes we (and that includes me) get a little too nit-picky about some things.

Consider for instance Jesus’ reaction when the Pharisees brought the adulteress to Him and demanded to know what to do with her. Jesus didn’t soft-pedal what she had done (in fact He told her she needed to stop), but neither did He browbeat her over it.

Now, having said that, I’ll offer a couple of other thoughts. As garvsgrl very correctly pointed out, we live in a fallen world. God is not sitting up there on high picking and choosing people to spend their lives with defective bodies. He set the creation into motion thousands of years ago and turned it over to Adam, who subsequently turned it over the “god of this world” (to use Jesus’ words). Since then, God intervenes as needed on some occasions (like when He freed the Hebrew slaves, for instance), but for the most part God allows the consequences of our actions to play themselves out. That’s why sometimes bad things happen to good people. Sometimes God intervenes to prevent such occurrences, but He’s not obligated to at any time. (“In this world you will have tribulation.”) Unfortunately, that includes physical problems such as what you have described on Oprah.

That being the case, what are these people to do? Their outer appearance goes one way, but the hormonal chemistry of their brain and nervous system goes another. Both are equally out of the individual’s control. Which one should the individual follow? If a stick is floating down a river and it comes to a fork in the river, are we going to blame the stick for going to the left instead of going to the right? Meanwhile the stick simply wishes that it didn’t have to make the choice at all, it would’ve been perfectly happy just continuing on straight ahead.

It’s the same with these people. Which current should they follow? Why do they have to be condemned for choosing one over the other? The most frustrating part is people like us (who are supposed to exhibit “unconditional love”, but usually fail miserably at it) who only look at their outer appearance and then point fingers and assign blame for not “conforming”, when we don’t have the slightest idea of the war going on inside them – a war that they didn’t ask for and would like very much to escape from. Inevitably, when they do choose a current, simply trying to find some sort of psychological peace, there will be somebody there waiting, ready to point a finger and to assign blame.

Meanwhile, God knows that, regardless of the sexual battle going on in their minds, they’re hopelessly lost anyway even if they had no sexual battles at all. He just wants them to come home where He can “wipe away every tear” and finally give them a real peace in a body with no such problems. Would that we believers who are the bearers of “unconditional love” on this side of Heaven would remember that and cut them a little slack.

[HiLaReE320]

Hey, thanks for replying! :):

While I understand the point of both you guy's posts, I don't think I explained myself well, I guess....

I DON'T point blame at people that are born like this, like I said, my heart goes out to them and I know it has to be really tough to not know what you "are." But then you, Luke, said people make way too much out of sexual sin and not enough about the others. While I agree with you to some extent, sexual sin is still sin. The world itself makes a HUGE deal out of sexual sin, even obsessive, so yes, it should be addressed.

And also, yes, we live in a fallen world, but... So what? What does that have to do with how people are created? It's not that I'm blaming God (I'm not, because I know He does things we don't understand) BUT if the Bible is 100% correct and the psalmist and Jeremiah both talked about how God intricately designed us in our mother's womb, then how could something like that happen? But anyways, the point of the post is not WHY they were made this way, we have no clue..... I was just asking the question of basically.. Are these people gay? Like, especially the first woman who was born with XY chromosomes but just didn't develop certain hormones? If so, according to many on this board, that person would have to renounce their "homosexuality" to be a true born again Christian becuase YES, after one becomes a Christian, sin is an important thing to stay away from. So would they remain chaste?

So if someone is intersexed, does that mean that they cannot sin sexually? That is, depending on whether that person is married to someone of either sex (whether it's the right or wrong sex). I guess I just don't understand.. Like, how would you witness to someone like this, if I (or you) were to ever run across an intersexed person?

Again, the question is not whether we are in a fallen world (I think we all know that), but just what are these people to do? How do we witness to them? Biblically, ARE we suppose to encourage (in love, of course) them to only date/marry outside of their biological sex (i.e. the first woman would have to start dating women because she is biologically male)?? Or is it "well, anything goes" mentality??

And also, the stick in the river analogy is a poor example relating to this because Gays and lesbians say the same thing. Does that make their sin ok just because they happen to go down "one part of the stream"? Then again, maybe I misunderstood...

[zhan]

Yes, they can sin sexually. Adultery, fornication, and lust are all equal opportunity sins. They would be just as guilty as anyone else of those sins.

As for the thought of homosexuality, that would have to be between them and God. Although, one interesting thought is that an XXX, XXXX, XXXY, etc. person would be highly unlikely to even meet another person like themselves, thus making homosexuality unlikely (depending on definition of course). The only advice I could give to such a person would be to take it to the Lord in prayer and see what He says about it, if anything.

The problem with applying this over to the majority of Gay culture is that a gay man is born a man, and develops as a man, and generally has no doubts that he is a man. He then acts on his lusts and has sex with other men. This has been forbidden by the Lord, and so is a sin. Ditto for the lesbian perspective as well.

The best way to witness to any of the above is to show them they need Jesus regardless of their opinion on one specific sin. Have they ever lied? Stolen? Looked with lust? Held hatred in their heart? Used the Lords name in vein? Hold the mirror of the law up to their heart and let them see themselves in it, then show them that Jesus died on the cross, *sacrificed* himself to pay our debt, so that they may be forgiven and live with Him eternally IF they will repent and believe.

If you ever do run across a true inter sexed person, it's OK to admit you're not sure what they should do regarding sexuality. Honestly, I'm not sure either. However, I do know they need Jesus just like the rest of us, and that *He* can lead them correctly. Don't let a small corner of the picture take over the whole frame.

Oh, and if any of the above sounded WOTMish, it's because I borrowed some of it from Mr. Comfort.

[joyfulyredeemed]

I think this verse could apply to this situation:

In Matthew 19:12, Jesus says "For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from [their] mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive [it], let him receive [it]."

Breaking this verse down.... some were born that way (those born with ambiguous sexual charastics as described in the OP), some were made that way by men (those who were castrated) & some made themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom's sake (those choosing to live celebate lives maybe?)

In the book of Acts, it mentions a eunuch who wanted to be baptised:

"And as they went on [their] way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, [here is] water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him."

The Bible doesn't tell us if the eunuch was born that way or not, but that's not the point because Salvation is for all regaurdless. Philip obviously treated this eunuch as a believer or he wouldn't have baptised him.

[mikitta]

Joyfulyredeemed - these people are not eunuchs. They have the apparatus of each sex within their body, in whole or in part. This is not an indication that God meant them to be unsexual at all, which is what an eunuch is. I've always viewed the eunuch passage to mean there are some who through disfiguring birth defects or mental retardation do NOT engage in sexual behavior because either they physically cannot or they do not possess the emotional and mental maturity to do so. And then some are made that way by men (clipped in order to watch over their master's harem) and then there are those, through Holy Spirit, who are supernaturally able to resist sexual temptation and choose a life of celibacy.

They are in a very difficult situation because, from what I've gathered on the cases I've looked at, such a child born like this is at higher risk for sexual abuse than an average child might be. The sin of others compounds the confusion for them from an early age unless they are born to very understanding and wise parents who go the extra mile to protect their child.

The truly inter sexed individual has a unique opportunity that the rest of us do NOT have - after all the hullabaloo of puberty is over, they can CHOOSE what sex they want to be. At least NOW they can. As recently as 20 years ago, parents were still choosing for them at an early age, and most of them were assigned the female gender because it's an easier operation to undertake.

This whole issue gets wrongly embroiled into the debate about homosexuality because we "normals" (as opposed to the "uniques) cannot wrap our heads around the issue. We have to give it a point of reference and so instead of making it it's OWN reference point, we measure it against a known sin - homosexuality.

INSTEAD, we should consider these individuals as very unique and if we ever have the opportunity to create relationships with them, sexual orientation should not be a big factor at all. And when the question IS posed, a simple "God gave you a very special opportunity that He doesn't give to most other people. He gave you the opportunity to choose the gender you want to be." Therefore, seriously, unless they CHOOSE to be male because their hormoneal and physical development lead them that direction, and THEN they decide as a physcial male, they want sex with other males - THAT is when the issue of homosexuality is breeched (likewise one who chooses female and preferes females).

I will say this - the confusion these people suffer is intense and until they have their true gender identity figured out, they should hold off on any gender assignment surgery, because that is for the rest of their lives. Let them get to know who they are first, become settled in their own mind and heart about which path to take.

God Bless,
mik

[joyfulyredeemed]

Joyfulyredeemed - these people are not eunuchs. They have the apparatus of each sex within their body, in whole or in part. This is not an indication that God meant them to be unsexual at all, which is what an eunuch is. I've always viewed the eunuch passage to mean there are some who through disfiguring birth defects or mental retardation do NOT engage in sexual behavior because either they physically cannot or they do not possess the emotional and mental maturity to do so. God Bless,
mik

See, I've always looked at it as if one was born with ambigious "parts" back in the day, they may not marry & engage in sex by choice. I agree that it's not an indication that God meant for them to be unsexual....but maybe because of societies "norms" in the time, it was frowned upon for someone with both parts to marry? For example, if arranged marriages were common, would a parent marry off their daughter if she had the parts of both and never menstrated?

[countmeworthy]

My thoughts first are these:

Regardless of how we are born, we all need to repent and make the Lord Jesus Christ be our LORD, King of our lives, through His shed blood. (I understand there are people who are born so mentally or physically handicapped they cannot speak and neither do most of us know how to reach them...we know God is a merciful, compassionate, just, and Loving God. I'm not addressing those children or people here, just to be clear.)

So if an inter-sexed person is born that way through no fault of their own, they still need JESUS Christ in their lives.

Once they are truly born again and following HIM wholeheartedly, He will guide them & give them direction and counsel through this difficult turmoil. He can do this even if they're not born again, grant it..but God will truly protect and bless them all the more once they enter into the Kingdom of God's dear Son.

[PlentyGroovy]

I agree with God will guide them on choosing.

I don't like how they are being used as pawns by the media to make transgender/transexuals and deviant lifestyles like homosexuality more mainstream and acceptable.

[sracer]

See, I've always looked at it as if one was born with ambigious "parts" back in the day, they may not marry & engage in sex by choice. I agree that it's not an indication that God meant for them to be unsexual....but maybe because of societies "norms" in the time, it was frowned upon for someone with both parts to marry? For example, if arranged marriages were common, would a parent marry off their daughter if she had the parts of both and never menstrated?
Well, God didn't call everyone to be sexually active. He called some to celibacy. People don't always respond favorably to what God has called them to do. He may have allowed such a birth defect to occur as a way of pushing the person to celibacy.

He has a purpose for all of our lives. Sometimes we "get it" by simply seeking Him and yielding to His direction. Other times, we're thick-necked and need a whack with a divine 2-by-4. And in still other cases, people need to be corralled into doing what He wants (kinda like bowling with the gutter rails out).

[BHiles]

Not blaming Hilary here because she did not invent the question but:



Another of the red herring questions that question God.



Like What about the people who never heard of Jesus?

or

If there is a God why does evil exist?

or

Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Ye shall not surely die:


All questions to distract us from the fact that fallen man is broken and in desperate need for a Saviour in which the True Christ is the actual One that God gave us and told us about in the infalible Word of God.

His laws are true, His ways are perfect and there is one way to heaven.

[covenant mom]

I don't want to hijack but can I interject a quick question here? Why did they "casterate" eunichs? Wouldn't that just remove the testicles & not the doogle (my 2 &3 yr olds term) by which they could still have relations w/ the harem?:confused

[mikitta]

There are two types of castration. One that takes the nuts, but leaves the bolt, so to speak, and the type that takes it all.

Boys were castrated just before or during puberty with the first type. This ensured they would not be able to have sexual relations with women because their bodies would never be able to produce enough testosterone for the job.

Men past puberty were completely castrated - all of it. Because even with the testes gone, they could still maintain enough of an erection to have sexual relations.

Sorry guys - I know a few of you are grimacing and crossing your legs about now.

I think the problem with considering the intersexed as part of a class of "eunuchs from their mother's womb" is that so many of these people have been sexually exploited from an early age. They didn't have a choice in the matter. Perhaps many of them would have preferred to remain celibate the rest of their lives because it would have allowed them to live somewhat normally. But that really is a moot point, because we don't know.

I think we need to be very careful when we impose our own "normal" biased ideas on the sexuality or non sexuality of people who would fit in our definition of physically abnormal. Certainly some disabilities make sexual relations impossible, but this isn't true of THIS particular circumstance.

The intersexed person is wholly unique and it is a mistake to pigeon hole them with any one group or the other in the interest of furthering an agenda (GLBT etc), or because we are uncomfortable with their very real and physical difference.


Just remember, that in Biblical times (and even more recently) a baby born like this, with ambiguous genitalia - likely would not have been allowed to live past a day after their birth because their parents would not have been able to cope with the difference. Let's not even mention the superstitions such a child, with mixed natures, would have evoked - and the fear others would have of them.

God Bless,
mik

[covenant mom]

Thanks for helping explain that to me. I wonder how the second group could urinate? Hmmmm:confused

[mikitta]

They sat down or squated like women do.

God Bless,
mik

[Literalist-Luke]

Such a lovely conversation here. :tsk :pop2

[covenant mom]

Such a lovely conversation here. :tsk :pop2

:Tape:eek:lalala

If you don't like it, take your little eyes elsewhere, Luke! Don't you have any sister or something?

:heh:D:

[Knight of Chris]

I was watching Oprah today, and, I know, it's OPRAH so don't take what goes on her show seriously... But today she was interviewing people who were born intersexed (previously known as hermaphrodite), NOT transgendered... That's different....

One "girl" that was on there was a young woman who looked totally female, very pretty, but she was born with testes and XY chromosomes (the male set), but I think she also had a "woman part, she said she did on the show though I'm not sure if she was born with it or if it was surgically created. She had no uterus and could obviously not have kids... The only thing was that her body made very little to no testosterone so she never developed male characteristics and female ones instead. It was called some sort of disease, I think Androgen Suppresant Syndrom? Something like that.. She's never been on hormones or anything, and she lives as a straight woman.. Has a boyfriend and all.

Another guest was born with XX chromosomes (the female set), but was born with a "male part". She was raised male, but inside always felt female. She lived as a man until age 30, and even got married to a woman, thinking that would help her (or him) become more of a man, but divorced after only a year. Now, she lives as a woman. She never said what sexual orientation she was, but I'm assuming she likes men, although she also can't have kids....

ANYWAYS my question is.. What in the WORLD are these people supposed to do, from a godly perspective? I mean, if you are biologically MALE (XY) but you look and act like a woman.. Are you a woman or a man? If you live as a woman and marry a man, are you gay and in sin?

I'm just so confused because I know while this isn't an extremely common condition, there are people that have to deal with it and I just don't know... Should this person never marry??? If not, that just doesn't seem fair.....

This is one of those things where I'm like... God, what are you thinking? Why would you do something like this to someone?? My heart really went out to the people on stage because it has to be a real struggle to not KNOW what you're "supposed" to be.

And again, I'm NOT talking about transgendered people who are biologically one sex (parts and all), but FEEL like a different sex.

Any thoughts or comments?? :confused

I think the condition to which you are referring is called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. The body may or may not make testosterone, but the cells have no receptors to allow it into the cells. So the preborn child develops as outwardly and, if the latest Brain Science is right, inwardly as female. This seems to be the "default sex" for the human race. So whatever the genetic makeup may be, it does not matter because the body and brain are as female as they can be. XY, XXY, whatever.

Think of it this way. My mother had blue eyes, thereby requiring that she have two genes for blue eyes, since it is a recessive trait. My father has brown eyes, so he could have had one recessive gene for blue eyes and one dominant gene for brown eyes. So I have one blue eyed gene and one brown eyed gene, and have brown eyes because in this case the blue eye gene is recessive and therefore irrelevant, never having the chance to "express itself." Now imagine an XY child that has an entire chromosone acting like a recessive gene. The Y chromosone does not express itself, so makes no difference to the child. It's just as if it was not there. Well, close anyway.

Since none of us can know another's heart, and God does not seem to have revealed how to deal with this specific situation is His Word, (as far as I know anyway,) then we must fall back on the Scriptural "default position" of love and acceptance. The intersexed or transexual is whatever they say they are, and until God deals with them differently, we should treat them as such. As one of my friends likes to say, "Don't criticise a T-girl until you walk a mile in her pumps."

[OnTheHorizon]

Thanks for that explanation, Knight of Chris. :):

[Literalist-Luke]

Well said, Knight of Chris, and I totally agree with your conclusion.