Holy Spirit in Nonbelievers?

[Paidfor]

I don't know why this occurred to me, but I thought it might be fun and instructive to think about and discuss. Or am I a nerd?;):

We know that those who believe are given the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of {God's own} possession, to the praise of His glory.

But is the converse true. Are those who have the HS saved?:confused It would be best if you have scripture to support your view.

[carmen]

The same verse answers your question. The Holy spirit is given "as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of {God's own} possession, to the praise of His glory." None of this would apply to a non-believer, therefore no Holy Spirit is given.

Unless I'm misunderstanding the question?

[Paidfor]

Jhn 11:49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all,
Jhn 11:50 nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish."
Jhn 11:51 Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation,

Caiaphas prophecied.

Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'

How do they perform these miracles without the HS? Jesus specifically told us that Satan does not cast out Satan.

And this is more along the lines of what I am trying to get at. Obviously the Holy Spirit is given as a pledge exclusively to those who are saved. But does the Holy Spirit sometimes work through the unsaved. I was thinking specifically of preachers who preach Christ but whose lives are not examples of faith. But then about how the HS may work through all kinds of people who are not believers. The goal is to discover something about how the HS works in our lives and in the world.

Maybe I'm just groggy?:yawn

[sracer]

Caiaphas prophecied.

How do they perform these miracles without the HS? Jesus specifically told us that Satan does not cast out Satan.
Ummm, that is taken waaaay out of context.

Remember what Jesus said about working miracles in His name, casting out demons, and Him responding, "I never knew you"?

And this is more along the lines of what I am trying to get at. Obviously the Holy Spirit is given as a pledge exclusively to those who are saved. But does the Holy Spirit sometimes work through the unsaved. I was thinking specifically of preachers who preach Christ but whose lives are not examples of faith. But then about how the HS may work through all kinds of people who are not believers. The goal is to discover something about how the HS works in our lives and in the world.

Maybe I'm just groggy?:yawn
Not groggy... but it seems like you have a preconceived idea and looking to find Scripture to support it.... rather than the other way around.

The Holy Spirit does NOT work THROUGH preachers who preach but don't walk. God may USE what that preacher does and says, but God's Holy Spirit is not working THROUGH him. There's a difference.

I suggest you do a word study on the 3 ways that the Holy Spirit works. The "with, in, upon" (para, en, epi in the Greek) experiences described in the NT give a good indication of how God's Holy Spirit works.

No. The Holy Spirit does NOT work through the unsaved... not always, not sometimes... never. God may use the actions of the unsaved for His will, but He will never force Himself upon those who haven't sincerely invited Him in first. To claim that the Holy Spirit can work THROUGH the unsaved is to believe otherwise.

[head1982]

Caiaphas prophecied.



How do they perform these miracles without the HS? Jesus specifically told us that Satan does not cast out Satan.

And this is more along the lines of what I am trying to get at. Obviously the Holy Spirit is given as a pledge exclusively to those who are saved. But does the Holy Spirit sometimes work through the unsaved. I was thinking specifically of preachers who preach Christ but whose lives are not examples of faith. But then about how the HS may work through all kinds of people who are not believers. The goal is to discover something about how the HS works in our lives and in the world.

Maybe I'm just groggy?:yawn

I agree mostly
I would regard that God is Sovereign of All, and can work in any people HE so desires, and it can be merely to protect His Sons and Daughters (Ex.God's working in the Nazi Guards in the concentration camp that fail to check Corrie Ten Boom for belongings so She could keep her bible and preach the Gospel to other women in the camp) but can also work on the Powerful unbelievers for His purpose to be accomplished (Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, Pilate, Herod, Chaiph, Constantine, among others).

He can soften or Harden the Hearts, He has Control over all things in earth and the skyes (the balance of the Galaxies and Stars). He as well has control of sub-atomic Particles that have dominance of most living and unliving. you can Read Job 38-40, Psalm 104, among other chapters in the Bible about His sovereignty.

There is no doubt God is in Control of everything and everyone, but with the case of unbelievers i don't think He uses the Holy Spirit on them, because it (the H.S.) was sent on the Day of Pentecost to start this Dispensation of Grace and Church Era so Believers can know Christ as Lord and Savior and Stablish a relationship with God because of the Sacrifice on the Cross.

[Hootmon]

The HS isnt in unbelievers, but He does annoy them... :boink

[carmen]

The Holy Spirit doesn't have to indwell non-believers in order for God to use them :):

[watchman]

Holy Spirit in non-believers is like babies in non-women...

[Hootmon]

:wacko

[head1982]

Holy Spirit in non-believers is like babies in non-women...

:confused
what exactly did you mean by that?

[Paidfor]

Ummm, that is taken waaaay out of context.

Regardless of the context, the text stating that he prophesied because he was the high priest implies that it was with the inspiration of the HS. That was my only point.

Remember what Jesus said about working miracles in His name, casting out demons, and Him responding, "I never knew you"?

That’s my point. Jesus never knew them, they are not believers, yet they are able to cast out demons. How does that work?

Not groggy... but it seems like you have a preconceived idea and looking to find Scripture to support it.... rather than the other way around.

That seems about right.

The Holy Spirit does NOT work THROUGH preachers who preach but don't walk. God may USE what that preacher does and says, but God's Holy Spirit is not working THROUGH him. There's a difference.

True, and Paul in fact rejoiced in the preaching of Christ, even done in wrong motives.

Phl 1:15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
Phl 1:16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
Phl 1:17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
Phl 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

I suggest you do a word study on the 3 ways that the Holy Spirit works. The "with, in, upon" (para, en, epi in the Greek) experiences described in the NT give a good indication of how God's Holy Spirit works.

That's exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks!

No. The Holy Spirit does NOT work through the unsaved... not always, not sometimes... never. God may use the actions of the unsaved for His will, but He will never force Himself upon those who haven't sincerely invited Him in first. To claim that the Holy Spirit can work THROUGH the unsaved is to believe otherwise

It has always seemed to me that the will of God is advanced more in tribulation than in blessing. In Acts, Paul was warned not to go to Jerusalem. He went anyway, was arrested and the world was changed. Time after time in the NT and in history, Satan opposes, men act in sinful ways, and yet Christ and the ultimate will of God advances.

Confining ourselves to this age, does the Holy Spirit work only through the Church?
Or are there other methods that He uses to accomplish his mission in the world as stated in John?

Jhn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Do we know or can we guess what these methods are?

[Paidfor]

I agree mostly
I would regard that God is Sovereign of All, and can work in any people HE so desires, and it can be merely to protect His Sons and Daughters (Ex.God's working in the Nazi Guards in the concentration camp that fail to check Corrie Ten Boom for belongings so She could keep her bible and preach the Gospel to other women in the camp) but can also work on the Powerful unbelievers for His purpose to be accomplished (Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, Pilate, Herod, Chaiph, Constantine, among others).

He can soften or Harden the Hearts, He has Control over all things in earth and the skyes (the balance of the Galaxies and Stars). He as well has control of sub-atomic Particles that have dominance of most living and unliving. you can Read Job 38-40, Psalm 104, among other chapters in the Bible about His sovereignty.

There is no doubt God is in Control of everything and everyone, but with the case of unbelievers i don't think He uses the Holy Spirit on them, because it (the H.S.) was sent on the Day of Pentecost to start this Dispensation of Grace and Church Era so Believers can know Christ as Lord and Savior and Stablish a relationship with God because of the Sacrifice on the Cross.

Corrie Ten Boom lived, others died. God is sovereign, but chooses the time and circumstance to exercise his sovereignty. How and why He does this is far beyond my understanding. Why did God choose Corrie Ten Boom as his instrument and not someone else? I can't know that in the flesh.

The methods and ministry of the Holy Spirit have changed on this side of the cross. That's for sure!:):

[Paidfor]

Today's reading will be from the Epistle of Hootmon to the Prophecy Fellowship, verse 6

The HS isnt in unbelievers, but He does annoy them... :boink

Had you been an apostle, the Bible would be funnier.:heh

[smith_family]

I suggest you do a word study on the 3 ways that the Holy Spirit works. The "with, in, upon" (para, en, epi in the Greek) experiences described in the NT give a good indication of how God's Holy Spirit works.


I am interested in learning about this. Anyone have ideas/resources to help begin such a study?

Thanks.

[Hootmon]

Today's reading will be from the Epistle of Hootmon to the Prophecy Fellowship, verse 6



Had you been an apostle, the Bible would be funnier.:heh
:spit

Thanks! :heh

[head1982]

Corrie Ten Boom lived, others died. God is sovereign, but chooses the time and circumstance to exercise his sovereignty. How and why He does this is far beyond my understanding. Why did God choose Corrie Ten Boom as his instrument and not someone else? I can't know that in the flesh.

The methods and ministry of the Holy Spirit have changed on this side of the cross. That's for sure!:):

Certainly many of Gods working is misterious to us mere mortals and corrupt sinners. But the thing is we can't be sure it's the HS working on unbelievers just like the HS works on believers.

The main thing is how does God's Commands get done here on earth, making use of even unbeliever's actions to fullfill his proyect, what moved the Guards to spare Corrie's Life, was it the HS?

I don't know, yet there is a certain time in an unbelievers life when the HS works on him, when the person in context is hearing the Word of God and the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ Preached on him, in order to convince him of Sin

[watchman]

:confused
what exactly did you mean by that?


A man may pick up a baby. A baby may climb on his lap.

A man will never be pregnant.

If he does it will be contrary to nature.

Does not mean he won't be inluenced by or interact with, the baby, but it is not the same as being pregnant.
Ask any mother... :nod

Same same...

[Enoch]

Already been in trouble once this week for this verse, but here goes

Acts 2:17
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

But, please dont interpret for me when I said those last days are. Just take it for what it is :)