I'm having a hard time understanding the concept of someone turning from Christ.

[fitzz]

God says that He will never let one of His sheep go.A man like Charles
Templeton.He preached with Billy Graham.Then he wrote many books,saying
he was a atheist.Does God allow someone who was born again,to become a
atheist?

[cjones]

I don't know Charles Tempelton and his history with Billy Graham, so I can't speak to that w/o reading up on stuff first.

I'd say what you're asking though goes right into the good ol' discussion of once saved/always saved, or can you lose your faith and get saved again?

But there are lots of threads I'm sure on *that* discussion if that is where your thinking was taking you :)

-chris

[OwnedByJesus]

As you say, it is hard to understand. I think that is because it is not true. Either he was not Christ's or missunderstood in his book.

As your mentioned:
John 10:27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

I think there is another verse about leaving because one was not really one of us....

[Aveticus]

Your relationship with Christ can do one of two things. Grow or die. So if he wasn't growing in his relationship, it was dieing. It can die to a point were you end up just turning from God. No ONE can snatch you out of the fathers hand, but YOU can jump out of it.

[OwnedByJesus]

Your relationship with Christ can do one of two things. Grow or die. So if he wasn't growing in his relationship, it was dieing. It can die to a point were you end up just turning from God. No ONE can snatch you out of the fathers hand, but YOU can jump out of it.

Do you suppose you are then stronger than God??

Can you unseal what God has sealed up in you??

After being born can you make yourself unborn? Likewise being born-again is something you cannot undo because it was God who ordained it and He is faithful.

[M. Hawbaker]

Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. (1 John 2:18-19)

Those who depart from the faith were never really saved.

[OwnedByJesus]

Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. (1 John 2:18-19)

Those who depart from the faith were never really saved.

There it is. Thanks M. Hawbaker, that is the verse I was thinking of as well.

[Paidfor]

O boy! A good old fashioned OSAS OSNAS discussion.

Rom 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So, if it was created, it has no power to separate us from God. That includes yourself. (Assuming you're not a non-created eternal being.):):

[AnotherOldGuy]

Your relationship with Christ can do one of two things. Grow or die.
Ummm - no. Let me qualify that. A "relationship" is a constant 'give and take'. Salvation is not. Once saved, Christ 'owns' you. You may rebel for a time, but it doesn't matter. The 'give and take' is more like 'blessings or consequences'.


So if he wasn't growing in his relationship, it was dieing.
That's the kind of thinking that comes with the word "relationship".

Marriages nowadays are merely 'relationships'. They no longer are considered covenants.



It can die to a point were you end up just turning from God.
John disagrees:

(1 John 2:19) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.



No ONE can snatch you out of the fathers hand, but YOU can jump out of it.
Ummm - no. That IS someone snatching you from His hand. As the Reverend Jesse Jackson says, "You are somebody".:D: Once you are in Christ, you don't have the freedom to 'jump out'.

Those who are merely 'followers' can come and go at will. Some can act the part really well, but they never submit themselves to Christ.

[frisian1970]

It is rather convenient to look at someone that proclaims to be an atheist (used to claim to be a Christian) and say they never were. For one thing we aren't omniscient. Perhaps they are always Christ's....but on some really strange trip away. Fact is, we don't know about an individual. Or, indeed they could have never been. But to ALWAYS dismiss their initial 'christianity' is absurd.

[David Dansker]

Perhaps this scripture will help:

1Jo 2:18-19
(18) Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
(19) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

[twelvesmaster]

Do you suppose you are then stronger than God??

Can you unseal what God has sealed up in you??

After being born can you make yourself unborn? Likewise being born-again is something you cannot undo because it was God who ordained it and He is faithful.

Good questions OBJ. Answer: No to all.

No more could Noah could get out of the ark once sealed in. (And I'm sure he thought about it.)

[frisian1970]

Perhaps this scripture will help:

How so, what does it mean to you?

[Aveticus]

IF we can't whatsoever decide to reject God, then we don't have free will.

I still believe we can really be saved and apart of Christ, and then reject him. Not as a result of anything but your own free will.

Most of the reason why I believe this is from my own personal experience. I was saved at age 12. I even was filled with the holy spirit and spoke in tongues during a camp i went too were i got saved. Few years later, i rejected Christ because I WANTED to do my own thing, I even cursed at God and gave him the bird. Pursued sins I knew were sins because i enjoyed it. I felt cold and empty for a time, but then after a few years, That went away and I was numb to church and God.


I believe i Lost my salvation once i decided in my heart to 100% reject Christ and follow my own sinful desires.


Now was I lost forever? If I died yes.

But eventually I came back to Christ ONLY because I realized the damage I was doing to myself because of everything I lost, I hit rock bottom even though I hit rock bottom I still enjoyed my sins and was numb to church and was still cold and hard. But I realized in church one day, what it will all lead too, and I wasn't really truely happy anyways.

So I decided to give it all up, dropped to my knees at an altar call and gave him everything, and I'v been in Christ since then.


Wait a minute...I think I just confused myself with my own story, Now i'm not sure about it lol..

EDIT: I think i'm just going to go to the Lord about this and pray he makes it clear in my mind If it is OSAS or not.

[Gary]

It is rather convenient to look at someone that proclaims to be an atheist (used to claim to be a Christian) and say they never were. For one thing we aren't omniscient. Perhaps they are always Christ's....but on some really strange trip away. Fact is, we don't know about an individual. Or, indeed they could have never been. But to ALWAYS dismiss their initial 'christianity' is absurd.

Absolutely!

You have no idea what kind of trials a person has gone thorugh in their lives. To say a person who follwed Jesus, worshipped, was active in the church.....

....then experienced years and years of unanswered prayer, and th eeventual erosion of faith, was "never saved to begin with", is really not fair, nor accurate. I agree that "Johnny on the spot" type conversions that happen sometimes (usually at revivals or tent meetings) aren't always sincere, but to dismiss every case in this way is not fair to the person and not helpful in finding a way to help them.

[OwnedByJesus]

Aveticus,
This article may help you:

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/1990/1496_Letter_to_a_Friend_Concerning_the_SoCalled_Lordship_Salvation/

[David Dansker]

How so, what does it mean to you?

Hey 1970,

I was responding to the original questions: "Does God allow someone who was born again,to become a atheist?"

[cjones]

Absolutely!

You have no idea what kind of trials a person has gone thorugh in their lives. To say a person who follwed Jesus, worshipped, was active in the church.....

....then experienced years and years of unanswered prayer, and the eventual erosion of faith, was "never saved to begin with", is really not fair, nor accurate. I agree that "Johnny on the spot" type conversions that happen sometimes (usually at revivals or tent meetings) aren't always sincere, but to dismiss every case in this way is not fair to the person and not helpful in finding a way to help them.

Thw way you phrase that Gary, yes.... I agree that's not really fair or accurate.

Let's say a young man got saved when he was 18, just getting ready to graduate high school.

Then he spend 4+ years in college, "experiencing the college life" so to speak, getting drunk on weekends like lots of college students do, trying out marijuana, getting into internet porn, basically not in any way living a life that most people agree a Christian should.

Later on in life, he meets a girl and marries her. They both decide they need to find a church home and find a good one. The preacher one Sunday shares the Gospel and this man realizes he's not been living his life for Jesus. So he "re-committs" his life to Jesus.

In this picture, I submit that this man was never saved in the first place, and his recommitting his life to Jesus is really a first time conversion. This assumes that at this point in his life he is making this decision for the right reason. That reason is that he's finally realized all the sins he's committed in his life, and how because of them God is angry at him - because God hates sin. He realizes that because he's sinned repeatedly against an infinitely good and Holy God, God - because He is just and good, has to sentence him to just as an infinite punishment.... eternity in Hell. But this man has also realized that because God loves him so much and doesn't wish him to spend eternity in Hell, a wonderful thing has been done. God stepped off the throne of Heaven and became a man in Jesus Christ. Jesus, who was born of a virgin lived a perfect life, and died a horiffic death on the cross as the payment for *his* sins. This fictitious man now sees that he can have full forgiveness of all his sins past, present, and future *if* he repents of his sins and puts his faith in the one who saved him, Jesus Christ.

Coming to this place of repentance and faith should be radical change in a person's life. When you truly repent of your sins, you come to the place where you agree with God that you've sinned against Him, you ask God for forgiveness, and most importantly, you change your direction. You *were* living life your way, and now you have turned from that life and are living it God's way.

It's so much more than simply believing in God. That's why Jesus says to Nicodemus in John 3:3 that nobody will see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. That's a pretty profound statement. So what does it mean to be born again? Well, we can't physically be born again, so it must mean something else. It means a spiritual birth. You have to come to the place where you say "I'm done with me.... that's it. I turn over everything I am and give it to Jesus." You in a sense "die to self". When you get to that place, Jesus says in effect *now* you're humble and are ready to be born again.

Given all those thoughts, that is why I believe that if somebody truly is born again, a child of God, a Christian.... then they will not continue to live a life that's contrary to God's will. They may not get things right all the time, but they live their life knowing that they owe Jesus *everything* and so they continually try to do better.

We'll never know what happened in somebody's past.... only they and God know. But I do know that my job as a believer in Jesus Christ is to go out into the world and make disciples.... and the way to do that is to help people to get soundly saved.

I know I got off track, but if my words help just one person, then it was worth it.

Love you all,

-chris

[Rainbo2]

IMHO I think that a person can be saved and reject God, I've seen it happen with my cousin.

He gave his life to the Lord in '99 and would talk about Jesus to anyone who would listen to him, went to church, and totally turned his life around. He was the one who led me to the Lord, we were raised catholic so being born again was foreign to us. He was on drugs and living in a seedy motel before giving his life to Christ. He was like a different person. If he wasn't born again I'd be shocked. I've even heard him speak in tongues.
Now sadly he won't go to church, he's back to drinking if not drugs and when I try to talk to him about Jesus he changes the subject. What comes to mind when I think of him is the Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13, "Other seeds fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants."

I just pray that he comes back to the Lord. He found out this year that he has hep C and will not go get treatment. Says he's afraid he won't be able to work during the treatments. I'm not sure how much time he has left.

[Indiana Janz]

Apostasy is such a disturbing concept for me. I don't believe that an honest conversion becomes invalid through any action, but I still wonder and shudder at the thought of a believer renouncing what appears to be a solid faith.

Charles Templeton was an evangelist for 20 years. With Billy Graham he started Youth for Christ, which was the precursor for many other ministries. He no doubt led thousands to God. He then publicly rejected Jesus Christ and maintained that position until his death from Alzheimer's in 2001.

Lee Strobel interviewed Templeton for a chapter in his book, The Case for Faith. It's a very sobering read.

“In my view,” [Templeton] declared, “[Jesus] is the most important human being who ever existed.” That’s when Templeton uttered the words I never expected to hear from him. “And if I may put it this way, “he said as his voice began to crack, “I … miss … him!”

With that tears flooded his eyes. He turned his head and looked downward, raising his left hand to shield his face from me. His shoulders bobbed as he wept.

I can't imagine what Templeton's spiritual life must have been like. I can only think that if he can go there, so can any of us.

There used to be a poster on this board who seemed as joyous and convinced in Christ as anyone. But she shocked all of us who knew her when she became first a skeptic, then an atheist. It's heartbreaking and confusing to go back and read her posts from when she was a "Christian", and compare them to the attitude she had when she left our fellowship. I just don't know how to fathom that.

How do you just stop believing in God?

[OwnedByJesus]

...
How do you just stop believing in God?

By never actually believing, just acting and going by your 'works' as a 'Christian'.

To think this can happen to any of God's children is absurd. What proves you believe in Christ and that He is your Lord and Savior? Your life proves it (by being a living sacrifice) and your willingness to give your life for Him. We press on and those who do not likely were only putting on a show, deceiving themselves and perhaps others along the way.
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us"

As for the sower and the seeds, any plants that do not continue to live die. They appeared to have life for a short time but their faith was a lie and they choose to go back to what they new, which is sin. Sin when fully grown gives birth to death.

If one is unrepentant in their sin then Christ is not their Lord and one wonders if He is then their Savior as well. That person may be deceiving others but surely they are deceiving themselves.

James 1:22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourself, do what it says.

As James, and others, lay out; it is not by your works that you are able to obey, but it is Christ's work in you making you a new creation, which allows you to obey.

[linda]

Wow - Our God is an awesome God! This thread is an answer to a prayer.

Yesterday I flew home from Washington, DC and was seated next to gentlemen. We were discussing how each of us had ended up in Alabama; he said he had lived in Hawaii for 10 years then moved to Tennessee two years ago....he now works for a DoD contractor in Huntsville. I asked him what he did for a living in Hawaii and he said he had been a senior pastor at a church there. I said it was always nice to meet believers when traveling - he looked me straight in the eyes and said "I am no longer a believer". He went on to explain to me that the Bible is a lie - contradicts itself and God does not exist. He said he didn't know if he ever believed.

Here sat this man who knew the Bible from cover to cover and was telling me it was all a lie. All I could say was I am so sorry you have "lost" your faith. He kept saying - it's ok - I'm finally free.

It wasn't until last night while lying in bed did I fully understand. He hadn't lost his faith - he didn't have it to begin with. His father and grandfather had both been pastors and he had simply gone into the family business.

I will pray for him until the day I die or meet Jesus in the air.

[Ponderin]

By never actually believing, just acting and going by your 'works' as a 'Christian'.


True that . . . "He found nothing but leaves (http://www.biblebb.com/files/spurgeon/0555.htm)."—Mark 11:13.


There are those who for God knows their reasoning deliberately speak falsehoods.

5569 ψευδάδελφος [pseudadelphos /psyoo·dad·el·fos/] n m. From 5571 and 80; TDNT 1:144; TDNTA 22; GK 6012; Two occurrences; AV translates as “false brother” twice. 1 a false brother. 2 one who ostentatiously professes to be a Christian, but is destitute of Christian knowledge and piety.

5570 ψευδαπόστολος [pseudapostolos /psyoo·dap·os·tol·os/] n m. From 5571 and 652; TDNT 1:445; TDNTA 67; GK 6013; AV translates as “false apostle” once. 1 a false apostle, one who falsely claims to be an ambassador of Christ.

5571 ψευδής [pseudes /psyoo·dace/] adj. From 5574; TDNT 9:594; TDNTA 1339; GK 6014; Three occurrences; AV translates as “liar” twice, and “false” once. 1 lying, deceitful, false.

5572 ψευδοδιδάσκαλος [pseudodidaskalos /psyoo·dod·id·as·kal·os/] n m. From 5571 and 1320; TDNT 2:160; TDNTA 161; GK 6015; AV translates as “false teacher” once. 1 a false teacher.

5573 ψευδολόγος [pseudologos /psyoo·dol·og·os/] adj. From 5571 and 3004; GK 6016; AV translates as “speaking lies” once. 1 speaking (teaching) falsely, speaking lies.

5574 ψεύδομαι [pseudomai /psyoo·dom·ahee/] v. Middle voice of an apparently primary verb; TDNT 9:594; TDNTA 1339; GK 6017; 12 occurrences; AV translates as “lie” 11 times, and “falsely” once. 1 to lie, to speak deliberate falsehoods. 2 to deceive one by a lie, to lie to.
Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible : Showing Every Word of the Test of the Common English Version of the Canonical Books, and Every Occurence of Each Word in Regular Order. electronic ed. Ontario : Woodside Bible Fellowship., 1996, S. G5569

[Gary]

How do you just stop believing in God?


Well, I know someone who has gone through a lot in recent years. I'm going to try to paint a picture of his life.

Raised in a Christian home and accepted Christ at a very early age. He went through the usual childhood persecution as he refused to follow the crowd WRT drugs, booze, smoking etc. He went to church every week, was a part of Christian organizations, joined the choir as a teenager, and had a solid, unshakeable faith. He wasn't always the best Christian but there was a deep unshakeable belief in the Bible, God, Christ - everything he was taught as a child/adolescent.

He didn't really have any aspirations for a career, just wanted to go where God lead him. His only desire and prayer in adult life was to find a woman that would love him and get married and raise a family (this is important for later on).

That desire would remain unfulfilled for about 10 years when he finally met the right woman. She presented herself as a Christian, raised in the Salvation Army, had a troubled past but was trying to get back on her feet and follow the "straight and narrow".

Fast forward a few years. After moving around a few times they settle in a small urban community. They have trouble finding a church but eventually meet some friends who lead them to a nice, worshipful, traditional, congregation.

Then the troubles start. He finds himself unemployed, can only find a part time job, she is also working part time, they have two young children to raise. No one in the church is offering to help in any way. Even finding a babysitter so she can go to work is difficult. Her "friends” in the church want to charge her $3 - $4 per hour for babysitting when she only makes minimum wage. They start to think "these are church people??"

They go through NUMEROUS trials, especially surrounding money. No one at the church offers to help (there are many well to do people there including one couple who won a couple Million bucks in a lottery). This goes on for 3 - 4 years. They start to think "If there is a Holy Spirit actually living in these people, why aren't they being convicted"??

He is asked to take a leadership role in the church then finds out it was only a figurehead position, the real power was held by a board member who sees himself as the church father (where is the pastor???).

Finally, the car craps out, no one is there to help ($3500 for a new transmission), every one in the church knows this (local prayer chain, congregation of now over 200), no one even bothers to offer them a ride to church on Sunday morning. They have NO transportation. They ask around for a old beat up car they can afford to buy, get no response then find out a couple of weeks later that a church member (actually someone our fellow went to high school with) had a old car they sold to another member of the church for $500. Being extremely disappointed in this church they leave. They can’t seem to find a new church that hasn’t either embraced “New Age” or is less than Christ centered (ie; “show me the money”).

Fast forward a couple of months and, after an argument, he discovers (in her own words) that his marriage was a sham. The only reason she married him X number of years ago was that she was caught in a troubled life of drugs, incest etc and she thought he was a nice guy, stable, decent income and she thought “what the heck, maybe I’ll come to love him someday”. Can you possibly fathom the level of hurt from this, in addition to the fact that (rewind)…the ONLY thing he had prayed for, for 10 years was a woman that would love him and he could raise a family with. Talk about the ultimate slap in the face.. At that point he viewed his life as, kind of God’s playground (if indeed God even existed), Follow this up with a few more years of unanswered prayer, revelation that the Bible is NOT infallible. There are ambiguities, mis-translations from the original scrolls, and so forth…

That’s how a staunch believer can lose their faith. There's a point where trials become erosion, and without ANY positive reinforcement, the wounds just get bigger.

And if anybody says they weren’t a believer to begin with, I’ll call you a liar to your face, right here, right now.

[OwnedByJesus]

Well, I know someone who has gone through a lot in recent years. I'm going to try to paint a picture of his life.

Raised in a Christian home and accepted Christ at a very early age. He went through the usual childhood persecution as he refused to follow the crowd WRT drugs, booze, smoking etc. He went to church every week, was a part of Christian organizations, joined the choir as a teenager, and had a solid, unshakeable faith. He wasn't always the best Christian but there was a deep unshakeable belief in the Bible, God, Christ - everything he was taught as a child/adolescent.

He didn't really have any aspirations for a career, just wanted to go where God lead him. His only desire and prayer in adult life was to find a woman that would love him and get married and raise a family (this is important for later on).

That desire would remain unfulfilled for about 10 years when he finally met the right woman. She presented herself as a Christian, raised in the Salvation Army, had a troubled past but was trying to get back on her feet and follow the "straight and narrow".

Fast forward a few years. After moving around a few times they settle in a small urban community. They have trouble finding a church but eventually meet some friends who lead them to a nice, worshipful, traditional, congregation.

Then the troubles start. He finds himself unemployed, can only find a part time job, she is also working part time, they have two young children to raise. No one in the church is offering to help in any way. Even finding a babysitter so she can go to work is difficult. Her "friends” in the church want to charge her $3 - $4 per hour for babysitting when she only makes minimum wage. They start to think "these are church people??"

They go through NUMEROUS trials, especially surrounding money. No one at the church offers to help (there are many well to do people there including one couple who won a couple Million bucks in a lottery). This goes on for 3 - 4 years. They start to think "If there is a Holy Spirit actually living in these people, why aren't they being convicted"??

He is asked to take a leadership role in the church then finds out it was only a figurehead position, the real power was held by a board member who sees himself as the church father (where is the pastor???).

Finally, the car craps out, no one is there to help ($3500 for a new transmission), every one in the church knows this (local prayer chain, congregation of now over 200), no one even bothers to offer them a ride to church on Sunday morning. They have NO transportation. They ask around for a old beat up car they can afford to buy, get no response then find out a couple of weeks later that a church member (actually someone our fellow went to high school with) had a old car they sold to another member of the church for $500. Being extremely disappointed in this church they leave. They can’t seem to find a new church that hasn’t either embraced “New Age” or is less than Christ centered (ie; “show me the money”).

Fast forward a couple of months and, after an argument, he discovers (in her own words) that his marriage was a sham. The only reason she married him X number of years ago was that she was caught in a troubled life of drugs, incest etc and she thought he was a nice guy, stable, decent income and she thought “what the heck, maybe I’ll come to love him someday”. Can you possibly fathom the level of hurt from this, in addition to the fact that (rewind)…the ONLY thing he had prayed for, for 10 years was a woman that would love him and he could raise a family with. Talk about the ultimate slap in the face.. At that point he viewed his life as, kind of God’s playground (if indeed God even existed), Follow this up with a few more years of unanswered prayer, revelation that the Bible is NOT infallible. There are ambiguities, mis-translations from the original scrolls, and so forth…

That’s how a staunch believer can lose their faith. There's a point where trials become erosion, and without ANY positive reinforcement, the wounds just get bigger.

And if anybody says they weren’t a believer to begin with, I’ll call you a liar to your face, right here, right now.

Gary, the way you put it, it seems this person was not believing or trusting God other than to fill his need/desire for a woman. He then put all his hopes and dreams in her and they both put their hopes in a 'church' not in Christ. Is it any wonder for their despair?
Funny how many think following Jesus is a walk in a park then when things get difficult others, and themselves, will find where their true treasure is.

It is quite common for those with no adversity or knowledge/acknowledge of their own sin and God's grace to act like a 'Christian' as long as things go well, but when tested you find what they truely are made of.
They are deceived and they deceive.


EDIT TO ADD: odd that because the marriage is a sham then thus God is. Can you not see how wrong this logic is? Or that because this 'church' which seems 'nice' yet with out good deeds fails to meet expectations somehow proves that God is not there? This is what happens when people are deceived, when they accept another gospel. I wonder how it is that we are so prone and convinced/deceived that God is an ATM machine. :vomit

[Ponderin]

This is what happens when people are deceived, when they accept another gospel. I wonder how it is that we are so prone and convinced/deceived that God is an ATM machine. :vomit

Good grief! If we are convinced we are in for a walk in the park we have anotha' thing coming . . . Broken hearts, broken limbs, and missing ones two . . . Many saints have seen their share of sorrow and thou He slay them us trust He is working all things for our good.



There is no truth that we need be ashamed of, and there is no truth that will do any harm. We admit that every truth can be twisted; but even this would be a lesser evil than the concealment of it. Whatever the doctrine may be, ungodly men can pervert it according to their own desires; and if we have to stop preaching a doctrine because of the possibility of perverting it, we shall never preach anything at all, for every truth may be perverted, and made to be the mother of infinite harm. Our Savior did not teach his disciples to keep certain things for the instructed few who were able to receive them; but he commanded us to make known all the great truths, since they are necessary for conviction, for conversion, for edification, for sanctification, and for the perfecting of the people of God.

Even to his rough opponents he spoke boldly. Right in the faces of his adversaries he preached this great, but humbling truth, “You do not believe because you are not my sheep.” [John 10:26] Your unbelief is evidence that you were not chosen, that you have not been called by the Spirit of God, and that you are still lost in your sins.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/spurgeon/2120.htm



Amen.

[Gary]

Gary, the way you put it, it seems this person was not believing or trusting God other than to fill his need/desire for a woman. He then put all his hopes and dreams in her and they both put their hopes in a 'church' not in Christ. Is it any wonder for their despair?
Funny how many think following Jesus is a walk in a park then when things get difficult others, and themselves, will find where their true treasure is.

It is quite common for those with no adversity or knowledge/acknowledge of their own sin and God's grace to act like a 'Christian' as long as things go well, but when tested you find what they truely are made of.
They are deceived and they deceive.


EDIT TO ADD: odd that because the marriage is a sham then thus God is. Can you not see how wrong this logic is? Or that because this 'church' which seems 'nice' yet with out good deeds fails to meet expectations somehow proves that God is not there? This is what happens when people are deceived, when they accept another gospel. I wonder how it is that we are so prone and convinced/deceived that God is an ATM machine. :vomit

I think you missed the majority of th epost where I pointed out that for YEARS this person had an undying faith, not just a desire for romance. He suffered gladly persecution and ridicule for his beliefes and commitments. It was due to YEARS of unanswered prayer during trials and tribulations, non-Christian behaviour of high-ups in various churches (supposedly "Spriit lead"), and an extremely apathetic and downright ignorant attitude of "Christian" support form the church(es), along with Bible studies that have shown the Bible to contain errors in translations (possibly doctrine) that were the crux of the lapse of faith. The marriage thing was just the icing on the cake.

Again your assumption that this person didn't believe to begin with is downright false. He had a strong faith that was eroded over the years for VARIOUS reasons.

He did not look at his wife to fill all his hopes and dreams, as you put it. He DID see her as an answer to prayer (finally) that eventually turned out to be yet another disappointment.

Contrary to what some of you seem to think, continual trials, without a shred of positive reinforcement do not reinforce faith, they erode faith. People will eventually come to the point where they question what they believe, if claims and promises made in the Bible are not seen, or experienced. I have seen this happen in many people.

Your comment about an "ATM" machine is also unnecessarily cynical. When one approaches God time after time after, for matters near and dear to their heart and see nothing but disappointment, non-answers and even more problems, it's a natural reaction to question whether what they believed in the first place is real or not.

[OwnedByJesus]

Gary, 'undying faith' does not die. There is no way to know Jesus' faithfulness to your friend. But the fact remains that MANY seem to fall away when in reality MANY were simply acting the part and quite deceived.

If one knows Jesus for many years how can that same one decide later that Jesus does not exist? That's nuts and completely un-scriptural.

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me

Matthew 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'


Again, your friend may be a prodigal and soon to be reconciled by the Lord. But for the majority, that is not the case and the best one can do is pray for and witness to the lost.

[cjones]

Contrary to what some of you seem to think, continual trials, without a shred of positive reinforcement do not reinforce faith, they erode faith. People will eventually come to the point where they question what they believe, if claims and promises made in the Bible are not seen, or experienced. I have seen this happen in many people.

Your comment about an "ATM" machine is also unnecessarily cynical. When one approaches God time after time after, for matters near and dear to their heart and see nothing but disappointment, non-answers and even more problems, it's a natural reaction to question whether what they believed in the first place is real or not.

Gary, I hear your heart in your words. But the Bible is clear that there's no guarntee that we're due anything after getting saved:

John 16:33 (NIV) I have told y ou these things so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome thw world.

Also people go through trials in their life *because* it serves to give God glory as in the story of Jesus and the blind man:

John 9:1-3 (NIV) As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life."

I personally know of a man who has had cancerous tumors 9 times in 10 years. Yet his faith has not been shaken and he is a living, walking testimony of what it means to be a Christian. Every time his cancer was erradicated, people, doctors, and other medical folks were dumbfounded that he 'beat the cancer again'.

The gentelman you describe makes me think of the parable of the sower... the seed that fell on rocky places (Matthew 13:5). Listen to Jesus' explanation of this seed:

Matthew 13:20 (NIV) The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.

These are my thoughts.... I can only present them.

-chris

[Gary]

I guess I'M confused about how anybody could "act the part" of believing in God. How would that benefit anybody?

I don't understand the concept of "fake belief". Either you do or you don't (or a fence sitter).

To me, it makes perfect sense that a person believes something for however long a period of time, then is presented with opposing facts which cause them to change that belief.

The scripture that has been presented, and the analogy of the sower, both refer to those who heard scripture and either did nothing with it, or didn't believe. The parable of the prodigal son may be more appropriate.

I DO know that this person is searching and trying to reconcile many conflicting thoughts. Your prayers would be much appreciated.

[allynnegirl]

I DO know that this person is searching and trying to reconcile many conflicting thoughts. Your prayers would be much appreciated.

I will :Pray for your friend.

:hug I know where your friend is. I lived there for a while. I doubted my conversion. Thought God had put someone into my life forever with the same faith as my own; counting on "church friends" to uphold "good works" and make my life perfect. When these things turned out not the way I thought they should be, I turned from Him and insisted that I must never have been saved.

All the time His hands were cupped around me. He was waiting, waiting for me to turn back to the reality that He was still right there beside me.

I'm probably not conveying myself very clearly -- I have a problem with that. Gary, PM me if you want to discuss more. :hug

[Gary]

Actually, you are very clear. Thanks for the prayers.:hug

[OwnedByJesus]

I guess I'M confused about how anybody could "act the part" of believing in God. How would that benefit anybody?
Approval, appearance, acceptance. Why do you do what you do and for whom? It is all idolatry unless done for the glory of God.

I don't understand the concept of "fake belief". Either you do or you don't (or a fence sitter).

To me, it makes perfect sense that a person believes something for however long a period of time, then is presented with opposing facts which cause them to change that belief. The trouble here is what do we regard as facts and do these new 'facts' oppose what we have known to be true in the past?


The scripture that has been presented, and the analogy of the sower, both refer to those who heard scripture and either did nothing with it, or didn't believe. The parable of the prodigal son may be more appropriate.

I DO know that this person is searching and trying to reconcile many conflicting thoughts. Your prayers would be much appreciated.

This is good. I was thinking about this earlier and wondering if perhaps this person sort of used you as a safe person to vent/rant and is really still wrestling w/ God in prayer about it.
Praying for him.

[frisian1970]

Ah, the one true "scotsman" thread.

Been there, done that.

:becky

[Gary]

Approval, appearance, acceptance. Why do you do what you do and for whom? It is all idolatry unless done for the glory of God.

Not sure I understand this. If I do something purely foe entertainment, relaxation or enjoyment, do you consider this idolatry (a little off topic, but, okay)?

The trouble here is what do we regard as facts and do these new 'facts' oppose what we have known to be true in the past?

Ummm, yeah.

If one is brought up to believe/taught the the BIble is perfect, without flaw, 100% correct, then study of certian passages, relation ot original Hebrew/Greek and internal dicontinuities show it nOT to be 100% perfect, doesn't that naturally lead to a change in belief?


This is good. I was thinking about this earlier and wondering if perhaps this person sort of used you as a safe person to vent/rant and is really still wrestling w/ God in prayer about it.
Praying for him.

All I know is that he is trying to find the truth.

Thanks for the prayers.

[Ponderin]

Ah, the one true "scotsman" thread.

Been there, done that.

:becky

*Ponderin*




One Truth Quotes: C. H. Spurgeon. “I believe nothing merely because Calvin taught it, but because I have found his teaching in the Word of God.”


:):

[CJL]

I think like most Christians, everyone goes through a rough time where they are angry with God. It can be over almost anything, however, it does happen to most of us. The difference is what we do with that anger and disappointment. Do we lay it before God and seek Him or do we turn and go in the opposite direction? Those who say they used to believe probably still believe, but us humans have this little attribute called pride that always gets in the way. Some I have met like this, it seems like a battle of wills, them vs. God. Are these people still saved? I honestly can't say as I am not their judge. I would hope and pray they would turn their hearts to God. For when this life is done, the years we had here are nothing compared to eternity.

YBIC,
CJL

[mikitta]

God uses circumstances to winnow our lives. He uses them as the threshing floor. He uses them as the furnace to burn away the dross from the silver. God is not after making us happy with our lives, rather He is interested in our lives being a continual sacrifice to His glory. Do we have trials and tribulations? Well then, it is no more than what commonly happens in the human experience. God, while He wants to bless us, if far more concerned with the state of our spirit, our soul, than He is with the state of our pocket book. We have to cross the desert, have to wander in the valley in our due time in order for our faith to be perfected. God is sovereign and mighty, and His Word is perfect. It is our interpretation that is left lacking because we often do not have understanding.

When we decide that God is not sovereign and that God's word isn't perfect because it does not meet OUR expectations, then we give ourselves leave to exit the furnace of affliction that reveals tempered steel and refined silver in our spirits. We allow ourselves the easy way out in THIS life, but we cut ourselves off from the real blessings, the powerful blessings that God wants us to have for eternity. For some, this is only for a season, but for others ... well, God uses the winnowing to reveal they never were part of the fellowship of believers. God softens whom He will soften and hardens whom He will harden, because He knows our hearts.

I struggle with my own belief. I struggle with the question of weather I am a true believer. I think about the imperfection of my ability to follow Christ - how many times I have failed to love another person as Christ has loved me, how many times I have failed to share, to give, to have mercy - and I know that before God I am wretched and dirty and unclothed. How easy it would be to walk away from that realization, rationalize belief in God and His Son, Jesus Christ, as just a psycho-social prop, and follow the world. But I beg God daily to put belief into my heart no matter what, to help me have faith, even in the most severe trials (and all my trials have been slight. Very, very slight), and that, if He would have mercy, to find me worthy to call in the rapture that I might be a beggar on His streets of gold.

I cannot fathom the purposes of God, nor His plans. I can only try to trust that He knows the plans He has for me. Plans to prosper me and not to harm me. Plans to give me a hope and a future.

I know for your friend, Gary, that God has him on the threshing floor, but it's not to destroy him. It IS to refine him - to cast off the chaff so that your friend may be made broken bread and poured out wine for others. Through the furnace of affliction God is making of him a man fit for service. A man able to minister to others at their deepest hours. A man who has compassion and mercy, even though he got little of that where he should have been showered with it.

I'm praying for your friend.

God Bless,
mik

[John 3:16]

Mmm, good stuff.\0/

The world can take everything from me it wants but my faith will always be intact. And not by my power either. He is Love and I know it. I can never UN-know that. As He laid His life down for me....mine is His...whatever He chooses me to experience, whatever he allows me to suffer...to death itself. And death in this earthly and temporary world means LIFE ever after with Him! :clap

[LizMusica]

Do you think those christians who had fallen from grace in this thread apply's to this verse?

1 Corintians 13:11-15

11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

I think maybe they were in actuality christians who had fallen from grace... its not that they were never saved, they just haven't overcome their sin nature, the old man.

The question is still, OSNAS, or OSAS?

They sure had all the signs of a christian to me?

[Gary]

I'm not sure you can relate it to a "sin nature".

I think a more apt allegory is to a building. No matter how firm th efoundation might be, constant erosion without some type of reinforcement will eventually wear it away and the building will collapse.

Relationally, in times of crisis, without answers to prayer, response from other "Christians", or SOME type of spiritual reinforcement (again I must emphasize this is not a one time thing or, an "I'll give a try and see if it works". We're talking YEARS of problems with absolutely zero answers or positive outcomes), faith will eventually be eroded away.

[frisian1970]

*Ponderin*






:):
I like your quote you posted, or rather the quote.

Reminds me of my radical Calvinist professor Great-great Uncle.

[frisian1970]

I'm not sure you can relate it to a "sin nature".

I think a more apt allegory is to a building. No matter how firm th efoundation might be, constant erosion without some type of reinforcement will eventually wear it away and the building will collapse.

Relationally, in times of crisis, without answers to prayer, response from other "Christians", or SOME type of spiritual reinforcement (again I must emphasize this is not a one time thing or, an "I'll give a try and see if it works". We're talking YEARS of problems with absolutely zero answers or positive outcomes), faith will eventually be eroded away.
But I don't think that we can just say that is the end then. The journey is not identical for all. We are most apt to compare it to our own, or what we are most familiar with. Or a story we read or person that relates a story of their journey. That doesn't encompass all of God's workings in people's lives. There are many if A then B's in the Bible. There are also, B's that can become A's.

If you catch my drift.

Lives turnaround.

We can't predict.

[frisian1970]

I personally don't believe someone can be saved and then lose their salvation.
My point is looking at someone's life as currently composed doesn't reveal the entirety of their life and the entirety of their course in relation to salvation.

[frisian1970]

Personally I have had immense doubts throughout my life. I also have had periods of what I would call great faith. Being at the opposite ends makes it seem like the other can't be true or couldn't have happened. Like, how could I have doubted...or how could I have had faith.
So where does that put me? I have struggled with doubt the last few months. Does that mean I wasn't saved previously? Is salvation like a spiritual yo-yo? Or am I? My interpretation is that either God is not real or I am on a spiritual journey that allows for my free will, yet is moved by the Holy Spirit via God in accordance with how God knows me. How He intends to shape me.

:noidea

[Ponderin]

I like your quote you posted, or rather the quote.

Reminds me of my radical Calvinist professor Great-great Uncle.

Interesting how points to ponder can remind of us things in our own experience . . .


It reminds me of the time I was asked "How do you know that?" to which I responded "because God's word says so" followed by another response "that should be in Barton's (or who ever that guy was) Book of Quotes"

I know it is no matter of a fact what was told in someones cousin's, sister's, uncle's, friend's, daughter's, hairdresser's, husband's, hunting buddies fishing group about someone one of them knew has "experienced" . If it is not found in God's word it is not the truth (period).

Beside the utterly confused and ignorant there are those who had rather create a god in their own image than take God at his word.


*Not to discount *teachers and preachers. Spurgeon being one of them.


*Luke 3:18
And with many other words John exhorted the people and preached the good news to them.

Romans 10:14-16

14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"[a]

16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"


Personally I have had immense doubts throughout my life. I also have had periods of what I would call great faith. Being at the opposite ends makes it seem like the other can't be true or couldn't have happened. Like, how could I have doubted...or how could I have had faith.
So where does that put me? I have struggled with doubt the last few months. Does that mean I wasn't saved previously? Is salvation like a spiritual yo-yo? Or am I? My interpretation is that either God is not real or I am on a spiritual journey that allows for my free will, yet is moved by the Holy Spirit via God in accordance with how God knows me. How He intends to shape me.

September 26th, 2007 11:57 PM
frisian1970 I personally don't believe someone can be saved and then lose their salvation.
My point is looking at someone's life as currently composed doesn't reveal the entirety of their life and the entirety of their course in relation to salvation.


As an example I found evidence of what you have explained in God's word. I do not know or believe this because you "said it" but because it is in God's word.


Thanksgiving and Prayer
3 I thank my God every time I remember you. 4 In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

7 It is right for me to feel this way about all of you, since I have you in my heart; for whether I am in chains or defending and confirming the gospel, all of you share in God's grace with me. 8 God can testify how I long for all of you with the affection of Christ Jesus.

9And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, 10so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ, 11filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ—to the glory and praise of God.


Beside the fact that He said He will not lose one. :):

[Gary]

But I don't think that we can just say that is the end then. The journey is not identical for all. We are most apt to compare it to our own, or what we are most familiar with. Or a story we read or person that relates a story of their journey. That doesn't encompass all of God's workings in people's lives. There are many if A then B's in the Bible. There are also, B's that can become A's.

If you catch my drift.

Lives turnaround.

We can't predict.

All good points (I'd quote all three of your posts, but I'm too lazy...)

I must say I do lean towards OSAS. It would be a very unfair and cruel God to lead you down the path of salvation, then allow your heart to be hardened to the point of losing that salvation.

[OwnedByJesus]

I read this recently and though it very hopeful for this thread.
He chose us, He adopted us, He sealed us; it's His work.
All we do is require the saving and He saves. Seems that our doubts come about we we focus on other things more than we focus on Christ.

Ephesians 1
4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

[frisian1970]

If it is not found in God's word it is not the truth (period).Oddly enough God doesn't literally say that in scripture, in any language.

Beside the fact that He said He will not lose one. :):Agreed. I would think the shepherd goes after His own, and when they have strayed from the flock they most certainly could be characterized (due to less than omniscient interpretation of our own) as never having been part of the flock. Like, look at her or him, their words were all shallow and less than sincere...they must have never been His or they wouldn't behave or think that way.

And yet they are brung back...

[roadrunner570]

It is rather convenient to look at someone that proclaims to be an atheist (used to claim to be a Christian) and say they never were. For one thing we aren't omniscient. Perhaps they are always Christ's....but on some really strange trip away. Fact is, we don't know about an individual. Or, indeed they could have never been. But to ALWAYS dismiss their initial 'christianity' is absurd.

I would have to agree with this. One thing is interesting...I was a Christian years ago, and then turned away for many years and even became an athiest...but I later turned back to Christ and remain with him.

Christians tell me I was never really a Christian

Atheists tell me I was never really an athiest

I find it amazing that all these people on the internet know my heart better than I do.

[frisian1970]

I would have to agree with this. One thing is interesting...I was a Christian years ago, and then turned away for many years and even became an athiest...but I later turned back to Christ and remain with him.

Christians tell me I was never really a Christian

Atheists tell me I was never really an athiest

I find it amazing that all these people on the internet know my heart better than I do.
:lol I do believe we are to be discerning, I also believe we are to love one another. That encompasses a lot of things, but applies to people we may "see" as atheists or fellow Christians. (Disclaimer, without posting the entirety of scripture I realize I didn't sum up the entirety of scripture and the above doesn't entail every thing or action we should engage in).

[sracer]

And as I've said many times before... no one really knows what a person's "story" is until their life has come to an end. We are temporal beings so we see things as only a snapshot. But God sees the whole thing (He has always known what will happen).

We can look at that hypothetical person's life and discern that the person is not truly saved. But that would only be a snapshot taken at this moment. The fact that the Lord has allowed that person to continue living is a clear indication that He is not finished with that person yet. Only He knows what lies ahead.

That person could be the prodigal that returns, repentant, and on fire to serve the Lord in a mighty way. Or they can live the remainder of their life unrepentant.

Again, we see things in a linear, chronological fashion. We see the hills and the valleys as they come. Like a good novel, we don't know the ending until we get there. We see a person's life as a sequence of states... unsaved, saved, unsaved, saved.... It's the ending that counts. ;):

Whenever I am asked about these type of hypotheticals, it reminds me to never take my salvation for granted. Yes, I have assurance, but I should be mindful of that assurance. An "attitude of gratitude" should be a pervasive attitude in my life.

[Ponderin]

Oddly enough God doesn't literally say that in scripture, in any language.


No it does not "literally". *He has uses way better grammar than I. :B:

He says those who have been given to Him He will never lose and His sheep hear His voice. Those who follow Him will never walk in darkness.

BTW, His word does not commend us to look to the OP's "experience" or what one might "would think" for truth. People "think up" and "expeience" all kinds of kooky bizarre stuff in regard to our spiritual condition.


The Validity of Jesus' Testimony

12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

13 The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid."

14 Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15 You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16 But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17 In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."

19 Then they asked him, "Where is your father?"

"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also." 20He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.

21 Once more Jesus said to them, "I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come."

22 This made the Jews ask, "Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, 'Where I go, you cannot come'?"

23 But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be,[a] you will indeed die in your sins."

25 "Who are you?" they asked.

"Just what I have been claiming all along," Jesus replied. 26 "I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world."

27 They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28 So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him." 30 Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him.







Agreed. I would think the shepherd goes after His own, and when they have strayed from the flock they most certainly could be characterized (due to less than omniscient interpretation of our own) as never having been part of the flock. Like, look at her or him, their words were all shallow and less than sincere...they must have never been His or they wouldn't behave or think that way.

And yet they are brung back...

You would think?

That reminds me of another quote!


"Says? You? Who are you?

~PDR

;):


We can do better than think. By God's word with His illumination we can know.