I am upset

[rdy4takeoff]

Members of our old church stoped by a few minutes ago and asked us back to church. I do not believe in organized religion any more and I explained this to them. I love the Lord and believe Jesus is Christ and the Bible is true and I have a deep faith but they said that we were not right with the Lord and the reasons we are having finacial difficulties is because I dont go to church and I am not right with the Lord. I am very upset by this.I love God with all my heart and try to live right and by Gods teaching so why would they think God is punishing me because I dont go to church?

[newname]

Hello rdy4takeoff! How are you?

Of course, it is hard for me to say since I wasn't there, but it is very possible that these people handled this situation poorly. They may have been trying to change your actions by slapping a law in your face---laws do not change the heart.......that is only accomplished by grace and mercy. So again, it is possible they handled the situation very poorly, and for that I am sorry. As you said in your last sentence, you love the Lord and try to follow his teachings. I'm sure you really do have a heart for Christ and his commandments, and these folks may have handled this all poorly.

Let me see if I can help in any way, Lord willing.

Let me ask you a couple of questions, and perhaps there can be a good answer to all of this. You said that you no longer believe in organized religion. Can you explain that a little more in depth? It would help me understand things more clearly from your angle. What exactly do you mean by that? Are there any scriptures in particular that led you to this view?

Next, something that helps me immensely in whatever belief that I hold from scriptures is seeing how it matches up to this test:

God first. Others second. Me last.

So, in your view in not attending church, how does it go through that 'filter'?
The most important thing in every decision that we make is 'how does this effect God?' Does it glorify him? Show our obedience and love to him?
Then, we can look at how it effects others. Giving and serving others is much more important than our own feelings. Therefore, how does your view go through that filter? Does it show love to others? Does it help others in building them up?
Lastly, how does your view benefit you? Does it allow you to be built up? Does it grow you in your faith?

Any view we have, as I know you agree, should come from the scripture and then also, it can be run through the God first, others second, me last TEST. It's always been very helpful to me. If you could respond back to these two thing things in particular, it would really help me understand your position on organzied religion and perhaps I could offer some more help, Lord willing.

I hope you are having a great day! God bless you!

Talk to ya' soon,

Brent

[Paidfor]

Hi newname, I was going to post something but after reading yours, I just can't think of anything to add. :thumb

[rdy4takeoff]

It is hard for me to explain but I will try. I feel that Jesus is Lord and his words are true and nothing comes before him.To many churchs are adding things to their churchs to draw people in or to apease those who attend there. I know people who attend the church just because it is something they have always done but still refuse the teachings. They believe in abortions etc. etc. And many people in the church talk unkindly about other christian religions. I do not believe we can organize religion into what we believe as people is the absolute true religion and that people who are not in our denomination is wrong.


Another problem I am having with my old church is one person who I will not name believes he owns the church and he feels he has the right to decide who he feels is worthy enough to attend there. He has driven many a good person out of the church. He even tries to tell the pastor what and what he can not do or say and It is working. He has made terrible decisions and he had the church pay 20 thousand dollars on carpeting for two rooms.

I believe Jesus is the only way and the Bible is true . We must obey his laws even though we make mistakes and mess up every now and again. Because we are not perfect. But I have seen time and time again people in my church who will not obey the laws of God because they do not want to. And say it is ok because I am saved and nothing can change that so i am going to do WHATEVER I WANT BECAUSE i WILL GO TO HEAVEN ANYWAY. They act like being saved is a get out of jail free card and that is not right. They sit in judgement over me because i wont go to church and watch all of this. But it is ok for them to get drunk, live together, commit adultry. But I am the bad guy because I dont attend church.

[mikitta]

Ok, rdy, first of all ...

the reasons we are having finacial difficulties is because I dont go to church and I am not right with the Lord.

That is works and it's abusive. Not to mention it is just plain WRONG. God is NOT punishing you because you are not attending services in that building.

Now, as to attending a Church. We, in this culture, really have a skewed understanding of what The Church is and what fellowship is supposed to be. We have it all wrong thinking that it's a place to socialize and get our needs met and be entertained. (I'm using the universal and general we, not the specific us as in you we :p ).

Fellowship is for the believer, but the believer is for fellowship as well. God has given each of us gifts of the Spirit that we are to use in building up the Body and in spreading His Gospel of peace. We are to learn from those who have a calling to preach and teach His Word, and we are to fellowship with other believers so that we are a vital part of the Body.

The Church cannot do without you, rdy. There is a fellowship of believers who desperately need you like your own body needs it's lungs or liver or heart. You see, the Apostle Paul said we are all parts and all needed. I understand you leaving your old fellowship, but you might start just putting it at God's feet and ask that he lead you into a godly fellowship where your gifts will be used to bless others and you will be present to receive the blessings that God has for you through them as well.

For the last 5 years, I have been without a fellowship. I keep praying for The Lord to lead me to the right one, to plant myself and my children and my husband there, to establish us under the teaching and preaching of solid followers of Christ. I miss being under pastoral authority that is God driven and Spirit led, and I miss having face to face fellowship with other believers.

God Bless,
mik

[Amazed by Grace]

Dear Ready,
I have heard that only 10-15% of the people in any given evangelical church are actually saved. What that means is that 85-90% of the people in every church are unsaved.

For years, I was truly frustrated with the behavior of those who were supposed to be Christians in the church that I attend. Then someone told me that perhaps God was sending me to that church to be a witness and a blessing to others and my focus changed from church being about what I "got out of it" to what I could give others.

It changed my whole attitude. Now I attend church looking for someone to bless and someone to serve. It is amazing how small things can bless others. When you see someone who is obviously new, we can be the ones to make them feel welcome. Others are going through difficulties, we can be the ones to make them a meal or simply listen to them. Now simply listening to someone seems like doing "nothing", but for most people
in America it is becoming a rarity to see someone who will listen and care.

I am constantly reminded that Jesus told us to deny ourselves and pick up our crosses and follow Him. Jesus spent his whole life in service to others. I pray that I can be that one person who Jesus will use to serve those in my church who are unsaved for time is short and we must be about the Master's work.

Finally, Christ has had to remind me often that ultimately, it is Christ's job to deal with their behavior. They will stand before the Master and give an account of their lives.
Though often it seems that this will never happen, the scripture says it and therefore,
we know it is true.

[rdy4takeoff]

You have all given me something to think about

[Amazed by Grace]

:hug

[warrior-child]

You all have also contributed to giving me more to think about ... we are not members anywhere ... haven't been in a few years ... Scripturally we had reasons for leaving .... and for not being members of any churches around us ... have been praying ... have visited long term one and short term another ... praying for discernment and God's leading ... but not led to join either one ... waiting on the Lord ...

:group

[jesuslover1968]

I understand your misgivings about the kind of church you speak of. Regardless of what people say, always rely on God's Word. Read the Bible and see what it says about fellowshipping with that kind of people...
In the last couple of years, many people are leaving the mainstream "churches." I think there is a reason for that. I think God is bringing to light that what people think is church, isn't. By church, I mean the worship, praise and christian fellowship that we are called to participate in. It is very important for us to have that kind of fellowship, but it is spiritually dangerous to attend churches that aren't biblically based, and there are lots of them...
Try reading in Acts to see what the churches back then were like. What they consisted of, physically and spiritually and you'll see that what people call church today doesn't resemble that. I am not saying there aren't some good churches out there, cause there are, but I think it very important to be very picky about where you go to fellowship.
A pastor or preacher or minister that tells you that you aren't right with God just because you don't attend church hasn't read the Bible. Church is more than a building, and even more than a congregation. God Bless.

[GloryBound]

I know what it's like to be upset about church. In my lifetime I've had like 4 pastors who were guilty of MAJOR wrongdoing and were ousted in disgrace, sometimes causing much turmoil in the church as well. But I didn't consider that to be an excuse to not obey God's direction to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together.

I did wander around for a few years, sometimes finding pastors who were totally ineffective and the churches even folded. Some were pastors of large churches who didn't care about the little people and left me in an ICU waiting room for three months without seeing even one pastor despite several phone calls.

Still it was no excuse. I have now been in a small to medium size church for a few years now and I believe it's where the Lord wants me. I could complain, it isn't perfect. But the Lord has me working. I'm in children's ministry, lead a woman's bible study, and other duties. Even here, the first pastor left in disgrace, and many people left. I however, felt the Lord wanted me to stay this time, so I kept on doing my jobs and helped to pray in the current pastor, who we are happy with.

I have always lived in a large metropolitan area so I have had many choices of where to go to church. I feel sad that you feel you have nowhere to go.

[newname]

Hi, Guys! Happy Labor Day to you all! : )


Hello Rdy4takeoff! : )

I do understand you in regards to what we see alot of times in various churches. The Bible tells us a great falling away from the faith was coming---sadly, I definitely feel we are living in a certain part of it.
But, go back even further-----Jesus came to Israel. Israel was supposed to be the holy and blameless people of God, wholly separate from the sinful pagan cultures.......and yet when Jesus came to them, he found a sinful, rebellious people. I think sometimes we experience that ourselves----we go to the church of God and we expect to find the holy and blameless people, but sometimes we just don't find that. And of course, none of us are innocent from sin within the church.

So, I definitely empathize with your feelings in this.

I've been thinking and praying about this since I saw your post and let me share some of my thoughts. Let's go back to the:

God first. Others second. Me last.

Being a part of a local body of christians:

1. How can I put God first in this?

There is no doubt that the Lord tells us to be a part of the local church. In fact, the very idea of calling ourselves 'a church' is that we are a united congregation. There certainly is the one-on-one relationship that we have with Jesus, but there is also the corporate, united aspect of our relationship with God. So, we put God first in being a part of a church because we are obeying him. Just a couple of quick references:

Hbr 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some ; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

We are commanded to not only assemble together, we are also commanded to exhort eachother within the fellowship. Perhaps this is part of why we are seeing all of these troubles within churches: yes, people are gathering, but is everyone exhorting and praying and caring for their neighbor within the church? Perhaps many of these issues would clear up if we recognized eachother as family, and as family, we are 100% responsible for eachother.

Next, we have a passage about how to deal with sin:

Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

If there is no church, a congregation of believers, then how can we possibly obey this type of command?

Lastly, the church is called God's family. How would you feel if your family was completely disjointed and separated? Never speaking, never caring for eachother in word and in deed, and not feeling that important family union? I sure you would feel horrible if that was the state of your physical family? Imagine how God is devastated when his children are not intimately connected and share meaningful relationship?
So, we put God first in this area of gathering with the church for the above reason.

Okay, next: How can we put others first in being a part of a church?

One of the big reasons for gathering in the local fellowship is to build up and encourage eachother. Life is not a solo adventure by any means---rather, it is a community relatinoship with others. Even Jesus, when sending out his disciples, sent them two by two. ALL of us need another one to care for us, pray for us, and help us along the road. There is someone in the church that desperately needs the special gifts that God has given you. If we do not gather with other believers, many christians will suffer, because they NEED the special gifts and talents you have. Perhaps there is a hurting believer and you are the only one that can help them, because you are the only one that has gone through that specific ordeal.
The Bible calls us a body----every part of the body is needed to make it run as a whole. What would happen if the eyes of the body wanted to be separated from the rest? The rest of the body would stumble around blindly. What if the feet wanted to separate itself from the rest? The body would have to crawl along and hands and knees.
Said simply: without every part of the body working together, the rest is crippled in some way.

And here is something that shocks me everytime I read it. I quoted this verse above, but check out the entire context:

Hbr 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Hbr 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Hbr 10:26 ¶ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Hbr 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

This is very staggering and it shows how much we have responsbility for eachother. We are told to gather together and encourage eachother on to good works. And then see what it says: for if we go on sinning....there is just a fearful looking for judgment.
Said simply: we have a responsibility to gather together and encourage eachother, because there is a danger that if we do NOT do that, that one of these people in the church left unexhorted could fall into sin (no one to help them or hold them accountable) to their ultimate destruction. This should be very sobering for all of this.

So, gathering in the local church can show love to others, because they need our special gifts and our encouraging so that they can stay on the straight path of Christ. There is simply no way to accomplish this if we believe that our relationship with Christ is ONLY a personal thing and that gathering with other believers is unimportant.

Lastly, how can we benefit ourselves from gathering with the local church?

Many of the reasons from the last section apply. We NEED the gifts that others have. Without those special gifts and exhortations, we WILL NOT grow in the faith. A single body part separated from the body is even in worse condition then the remaining body that was left behind. To separate yourself from everyone else is to be a lone body part...and just as a single coal away from the fire, there is risk of burning out and fading away. There are people in a church somewhere that desperately want to minister to you, love you, pray for you, and help you finish the race well.

Also, you need to have a spiritual leader----- it is the pastors of the church that God has called your spiritual leader:




Hbr 13:7 Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith.

These leaders are the pastors of the church---we are told to consider them and imitate their faith.....this would be impossible unless we put ourselves under their leadership within the local church.

Hbr 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: [I]for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you.

There is a pastor somewhere out there that God has set up to rule over you and to watch out for your soul. We MUST have these people in our lives. Just as a physical child NEEDS a physical parent, so a spiritual child needs a spiritual parent---that is what the pastors of the church are. They actually watch out for your soul---------and then the implicit meaning within that is if we do not have a church and pastors then no one is looking out for our soul in the same way that they would. That can only be a REAL detriment to our spiritual life.

We absolutely NEED the church to exhort us and pray for us and for the pastors to spiritually guide us.


Lastly, being unable to share in the Lord's Supper with other saints will hurt your spiritual life. See how Paul speaks of it:

1Cr 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
1Cr 10:17 For we [being] many are one bread, [and] one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

Communion is not only a remembrance of the death of Christ, it is also a symbol of the unity that we have as a church body. There is one bread and therefore, we are all one body in Christ. The Lord's Supper is special time of communion with Jesus Christ and with his church....there is no way to share in this outside of being a part of a local church. There is GREAT benefit for you in this!

To sum it all up---being part of a local fellowship is an indispensable part of Christianity. It blesses God, because we are his united family. It blesses others because we can build them up in the faith and help them finish the race of life. It blesses us, because we have people loving and caring for us and watching out for our soul.

The first part in all of this is to see what the Bible says about the church and what it means to God, others and ourselves.

Now, God may call you to go back to this church and work with the leadership to make a difference........or, it may not be the time for that. Perhaps God would have you be a part of another fellowship at this time.

Let me just say that I will be praying for you, and that God's Spirit will give you the victory in Christ in this area and that in the days ahead you will experience the joy that can be found when a part of a biblical, God-honoring, holy church fellowship.

My prayers are with you friend!

Brent

[Caleb]

Have you maybe looked at a non-denominational church? What many Christians, myself included, tend to forget, is that those who are truly born-again are ONE in Jesus Christ. Denominations are man-made, but if you have truly accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord & savior & repented of your sins, it doesn't matter if your Baptist, Pentacostal, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist, or even Roman Catholic.

[rdy4takeoff]

Yes there is a church I would like to check out but my DH wont go and wont let me go because he insist that it be his denomination. I have a problem also with DH that he will not wake up on time for church and he makes us late and people say stuff to us but he never does anything to change. And another thing is that Dh volunteers for things and never comes through and causes problems. When we did go to church it caused us such arguments that it ended not being worth the heartach. He would become extremly jelouse of me because people would take to me off the bat and wanted me to run something at the church or be on the board and he was jealouse of me and would start fights with me. I need to go to church for my youngest son. My two older boys was raised in the church but sadly my youngest wasnt. Pray that the Lord guides me to the right church and that My DH wont cause turmoil if I start to go back to church

[newname]

Good afternoon, Rdy4takeoff! : )

That is awesome! You went from saying that you didn't believe in organized religion to saying that there is a church you would like to check out! That is awesome---I totally commend you and praise you in that effort! That is a big deal! Cool! It's awesome to see the Lord working in your heart in this way!

I just wanted to drop in with that encouragement---if I get a chance later, I will drop back in and give some advice on some of the situations you mentioned with your husband.

Take care! God bless!

Brent

[rdy4takeoff]

Thank you and continue to pray for us

[BarbT]

Hi rdy4takeoff,

please do not allow anyone to pressure you in a legalistic manner about this.

Many believers may be strongly led to remain in lukewarm/dying churches because they have strengths for certain ministries or specific witnessing opportunities the Lord has prepared for them.

But I firmly believe God sometimes calls people out of churches for any number of reasons; among them the growing apostacy in these last days which can damage souls.

He may require those folks to just rest in Him, growing in a stronger relationship with Him apart from the church "formula". He will open doors to fellowship with other believers in compliance with "the gathering together" scripture encourages. Speaking from experience, I can tell you that Christian fellowship is not only limited to Sunday mornings. :)

I pray you'll experience peace in your spirit as you seek God's will about when, where, or IF He wants you in a new church.

[rdy4takeoff]

YEAH i AM TORN RIGHT NOW. I feel guilty because my youngest didnt grow up in the church. But I personally do better as a christian outside of the church because I lose focus off God when I am surrounded by people at church who will not follow the word of God and as I posted before It also causes problems between my DH and I. But as a mother I need to make sure that my son knows the Lord and excepts him as his Savior. I am confused right now.

[Gracie]

I think BarbT made a good point. Legalism is as poisonous as lukewarm fluffiness. I've been thinking about this subject alot lately, too, rdy4takeoff. I crave the fellowship but I do NOT miss the legalisms. Praying for you.

[antsinmypants]

There ya go, Barb that was awesome!


I have no fellowship and there are two congregations in town. One RC and one that I have no idea how to define in terms that people know in Canada and the US.

I don't speak enough German to even get fed going to either, and DH and I both agreed we do not want to attend the RC church... so for now we are at home.

The closest congregation to us that we would like to attend and know of- is an hour away. No vehicle and no way to get there and back.. so we stay at home.

I miss the fellowship, but nothing can half replace true fellowship if it is only superficial and 'oh nice to have you this week' and people looking at you like you're a heretic all the time.

I do what I can where I am and look for opportunities. Possibly once my classes start, I will see other opportunities avail themselves to us that were not available now.

Folks know I am in town, but people are not outgoing here (not really), and don't quite know what to make of me. I am somewhat of a closet celebrity in town so I have to really watch how DH and I are outside of our home and at the inlaws... I hear things that get back to us, and it can be quite funny one day, and kind of depressing on many others.

My MIL was a nurse here in town and transferred to the next town over, so everyone comes to her with all the news and how do you do's and asks about us and 'Oh we saw _____ the other day...'

Small town gossip is somewhat funny but really frustrating, which is one more reason I am really iffy about going to the other congregation just yet. Once I am more comfortable with social interactions (as in can reply in something more coherant than 'thanks' and 'nice to meet you') I think we might try it. Until now, we keep a watchful eye on the pfarrerstation (where the two congregations meet to practice dramas and choir stuff, and have youth meetings.. though affiliated with the RC) and maybe some opportunities might avail themselves right at our own kitchen window ;):


I just have this fear of being shunned entirely or being run out of town with firey torches or pitchforks right now.

I'm laying low thru the holidays and just waiting to see what gets back to my MIL.. :lol

Ready,
Keep praying Ready and seek G-d's guidance, He won't steer you wrong! :hug

[BarbT]

Oh ants, I had no idea this was your current situation. :hug You were in a Messianic Congregation before you married and moved, is that right?

As a former Roman Catholic I must commend you for your decision about that RC church! Somehow I can't picture you reciting Hail Marys over and over! :lol

I miss the fellowship, but nothing can half replace true fellowship if it is only superficial and 'oh nice to have you this week' and people looking at you like you're a heretic all the time.

In a bygone era 100 years ago, people used to nurture long distance friendships and even romances through the art of letter writing. These were REAL relationships.

When you think about it, Prophecy Fellowship, emails, and other forms of Internet communication are modern versions of that lost art -- only faster. :):

There are precious people on these boards who I've never seen in person but have enhanced my walk with God tenfold. There is encouragement, accountablity, and "sharing our burdens" right here in front of us. In the absense of finding a biblically solid church I thank God for providing a great alternative.:):

[antsinmypants]

Yes Barb, you are correct. I was in a Messianic Congregation before. My second family so to speak. We keep in touch via email atm.

That is also one reason I love this place and the other forums I am on.. It helps strengthen and keep together the peices I would otherwise lose due to no personal fellowship on the 'outside'.

That bygone era you spoke of, is how my DH and I kept in touch. He was here and I was in the US.. letters, emails, phone.. and once a year visits..

BTW, you're right. I'd not do so hot in that environ...

:hug Good to see ya