what about POST-ordained???

[SetApart]

i sorta like the idea of calvinism about the pre-ordained bit--with a little editing to POST-ordained...i guess the way i see it (which could be verrrry wrong) is that when God created man he created free will....

since God is ominpotent, He can and did see prospectively well into the future--through eternity essentially--so He gave us free will, we have all and will continue to live our lives with this as the ultimate "burden" of responsibility and accountability--essentially He is not forcing us nor coercing us to accept Him or His laws.

so...with free will, which we have all had from Adam through current age and into future generations...God has been able to see the final outcome of each one of our individual decisions throughout the generations whether to accept Him and repent---and so when it is all said and done, the calvinists see this process as pre-ordained rather than post-ordained as a result of free will (does that even make any sense??)...

i see prophecy that way...God has allowed man to make a total mess of things down here (as a result of free will)--but He told us about it 2000 years ago--NOT because it was pre-ordained by Him, but because it is the consequence of free-will (which is allowed by God)...and prophecy is simply His ability to see the final outcome of our free-will and then tell us about it well in advance.....

so...i don't believe the calvinism (pre-ordained) doctrine...i think the bottom line message of the gospels is to go out and share the good news to try to bring as many people to Jesus as possible. if calvinism is right..then why on earth bother to reach the lost?

just some random thoughts....

[Hootmon]

Thats not 'random'. That's Scripture, as near as I can tell.

Our 'pre-ordination' is based on God's 'foreknowledge' as to how we would respond to His message.

The same thing, but from two different perspectives...

[BHiles]

I still hold to the whole Relative Time theory which I believe allows for God's sovereignty and His power to allow freewill.

I know this is not a great way to put perspective on scripture, However I will do it at the risk of being ridiculed.

In the Movie GroundHog day Bill Murray theorizes that maybe God is not "all knowing", He is has just been around forever and experienced all of it.

Now I do not believe that that theory is true however it did start me thinking when I heard it that God has been around forever and while that is not why He is sovreign, His timelessness does allow for a free will in which He sees all at once. Therefore pre or post really has no bearing with Him because it is omni-time. A new word. :doh

[Hootmon]

'Calvinism', or its equivalent, seems to have a 'problem' with seeing God as being 'outside of time'. That 'blindness' is what results in a 'no free will' view, IMO.

God sees the Ending the same as the Beginning. He is both places simultaneously. He knows how we will decide based on His call. His message to us (within time) demonstrates this. Those who 'hear' have 'ears'. We are those chosen.

We are 'elect' because we have already chosen (from God's point of view). We heard...

Seems very simple to me...

[BHiles]

'Calvinism', or its equivalent, seems to have a 'problem' with seeing God as being 'outside of time'. That 'blindness' is what results in a 'no free will' view, IMO.

God sees the Ending the same as the Beginning. He is both places simultaneously. He knows how we will decide based on His call. His message to us (within time) demonstrates this. Those who 'hear' have 'ears'. We are those chosen.

We are 'elect' because we have already chosen (from God's point of view). We heard...

Seems very simple to me...

Me too. Not to fault them but it may have something to do with left brain and right brain having to see thing only in sequence. :noidea

[SetApart]

i also wonder about the moment when Jesus stopped everyone from casting stones at the adulterer---

1. either she was "chosen" and told "go and sin no more"
2. or she was not chosen and was told to "go and sin no more"

according to calvinism...why, if she WAS chosen, would he bother telling her to "go and sin no more" because she would go to heaven just because of her "elected status"....it doesn't really inspire one to be more "christ-like" in their living.

or
if she was NOT chosen, why would Jesus bother to tell her to "sin no more?" since it really doesnt' matter--she is going to hell anyway.

[Hootmon]

...see thing only in sequence. Yeah. God is 'outside of sequence'. Whatever sequence exists is because He determined that it fit His plan adequately. He saw that it was 'good'... in 'advance'...

[Hootmon]

according to calvinism...why, if she WAS chosen, would he bother telling her to "go and sin no more" because she would go to heaven just because of her "elected status"....it doesn't really inspire one to be more "christ-like" in their living.

or
if she was NOT chosen, why would Jesus bother to tell her to "sin no more?" since it really doesnt' matter--she is going to hell anyway.Interesting question...

[CarolLyn]

Romans 9:18. So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
20. On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21. Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use?
22. What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23. And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24. even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

[Hootmon]

If you look closer at those verses. You are posting about a false dichotomy, IMO.

Sometimes the 'vessels prepared for destruction' become' vessels of mercy'.

In other words, your fate is NOT determined before you have a chance to act.

[Sincere]

If you look closer at those verses. You are posting about a false dichotomy, IMO.

Sometimes the 'vessels prepared for destruction' become' vessels of mercy'.

In other words, your fate is NOT determined before you have a chance to act.[/


"although his works were finished from the foundation of the world." Heb 4:3

Every Christian says that the Bible is a book of truth. We all voice our opinions on it and emphatically state the obvious. "It is inherent!" "It is inexhaustible, and fun and true, with wonder and glory!" Sadly however, many of us do not know it as we ought. We've gotten used to listening to people speak about it, rather than reading it on own. We know of it, but not it. Our idea of God is altogether self-made, rather than founded in scripture. I too have been guilty of this. Personally, I thank God for the desire that he put in me to want to read and know meaty truths.

It is the glory of God to hide a matter and the glory of a king to seek out a matter - Proverb 25:2

[CaiperLane]

Me too. Not to fault them but it may have something to do with left brain and right brain having to see thing only in sequence. :noidea

I thought only guide dogs did that....:confused

[CaiperLane]

Romans 9:18. So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
20. On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21. Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use?
22. What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23. And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24. even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

Romans 9 is speaking of Israel....

Chapter 9 deals primarily with Israel’s PAST (as God’s chosen and privileged people).

Fact #1--The Israelites are God’s chosen people (Deut. 7:6-9; Romans 11:28).

Fact #2--God promised His chosen people that they would enjoy a glorious kingdom under their Messiah (Dan. 7:13-14; Isaiah 2:1-5; 9:6-7; 11:1-9; Jer. 23:5-8; 31:31-37; 33:14-16; Luke 1:32-33).

Fact #3--The nation Israel (at least the great majority in the nation) rejected their Messiah when He came to earth (John 1:11; Matthew 12:22-24; Matthew 21:33-46; 27:22, 23, 25; John 19:15; Acts 22:22; 1 Th.2:14-15).

Fact #4--When the church first began it was made up entirely of Jewish believers (Acts chapter 2, the Day of Pentecost).

[Sincere]

John Hagee is ruining you guys. Romans 9 is speaking about God's sovereignity in election to salvation. If it was talking about God's right to choose one people over another for service, no one would charge God with being unjust, which is the very thing Paul anticipated from people.

[CaiperLane]

John Hagee is ruining you guys. Romans 9 is speaking about God's sovereignity in election to salvation. If it was talking about God's right to choose one people over another for service, no one would charge God with being unjust, which is the very thing Paul anticipated from people.

I've never listened to John Hagee. I wouldn't know him if I tripped over him....

Romans 9 is speaking Of ISRAEL!!!!!

Chapter 9 deals primarily with Israel’s PAST (as God’s chosen and privileged people).

The first part of Romans 9 deals with God's choice of nations and their roles in His plans, not individuals.

Vs. 1-5 makes it clear that the context is that of national choice, the Israelites. Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Vs. 6,7: This is confirmed in vs. 6,7 because all Israelites were not saved, and all Ishmaelites were not damned.

Vs. 13: Paul cites Mal. 1:2, in which God says that He favors the nation of Israel over the nation of Edom. Malachi 1:2-4 “I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places”. These scriptures are not referring to individual predestination as Calvinists assume; but are speaking of nations through corporate election. In speaking of Esau and Jacob it is not speaking of them as individuals, but in the context is speaking of them as nations; the Edomites (Ishmaelites) and the Israelites.

Furthermore, the phrase "I hate/I love" is a Hebrew idiom meaning "I do not favor/I favor" or “to love less/more” (see Luke 14:26-hate father and mother). God did not totally reject all Ishmaelites, but He did favor the Israelites.

Vs. 16 refers to God's choice of how to lead the nation of Israel through the wilderness, which was independent of Moses' will in the matter. Personal salvation is not in view in the original passage (Ex. 33:19). The emphasis is placed upon “compassion and mercy” in this scripture. Not on judgment! God will favor one nation over another because of that nations willingness to worship Him and seek Him. Even Israel lost that covering at times when they fell into sin and idolatry. It was only His great mercy and His covenant with Abraham that kept him from releasing them to the destruction with the world.

Vs. 18 is in the context of vs. 16 and vs. 17, which refers to God's temporal destruction of the Egyptians when they wanted to destroy Israel. The verse teaches that God caused His choice of Israel to stand regardless of Moses' attempts to help or Pharaoh's attempts to hinder. Neither Moses' nor Pharaoh's personal salvation was in view in these passages. God may harden a wicked man’s heart for His own purpose, but only because he is so hard that he won’t ever get saved anyway; so He will do so in order to serve His own purpose. God will do no evil to man, for there is no evil in God. 1 John 1:5 “This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.” His judgment will always be righteous, so that no man can say that God did not give him an opportunity to be saved when they stand before Him in judgment.

Vs. 20 God will form, use, or judge a man as He pleases, just as He did Pharaoh, but not until He first has a reason for judgment, so that His judgment will remain righteous. It is then, that He does what He pleases with a man. God would never take a righteous man and cause him to become wicked! But men such as Pharaoh had been hardened lest they might get saved after seeing Gods mighty works through the plagues. Even the worst sinners in the world might get saved if they had enough proof that God is real and almighty. But God has determined not to give men such evidence without having faith first, so therefore they are hardened. It is only through faith that men might be saved, and not through evidence of His power. Therefore those hard-hearted people who would not have faith, who also saw His mighty power, were not allowed to turn in repentance, but were rather hardened. Hebrews 11:6 “But without faith it is impossible to please him.”

Vs. 21-23 refers to nations, which have either a glorious or judgmental role in history. The important thing to note here is where God says that He “endured with much longsuffering” the vessels of wrath. This shows that God never just decides to damn men to hell without cause. He endures with much longsuffering before making this choice. It is then that He will do whatever He wills. But He does endure with much longsuffering, because He is “not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” 2 Peter 3:9.


God has the right to divide Israel into two vessels: unbelieving Israel, which has become a "vessel of wrath prepared ("fit" or "suited") for destruction," and believing Israel, which along with Gentile believers, has become a "vessel of mercy." This could be why Paul mentioned his great sorrow in vs. 2. He himself felt so unworthy of salvation, after having persecuted the Christians. But now to see his brethren, the Israelites, who were cut off because of their unbelief in Christ only added to his sorrow and heaviness. And although it hurt him to see it, he understood that God had all the right to do with them as He pleased, even though the covenant with Abraham still remained valid for the Israelites. They had been given the opportunity to receive Jesus, but refused. So the wrath of God may be on those who not only refuse Christ, but also are separated from God, regardless their bloodline. In either case, Unconditional Election and Double Predestination are in no way referred to in this chapter.

[mandoman]

'
God sees the Ending the same as the Beginning.

If God operates outside the construct of time, how does that mesh with verses describing his "longsuffering" and "patient" attributes? If God sees everything in the present tense, would he need to be patient or longsuffering?

[CaiperLane]

If God operates outside the construct of time, how does that mesh with verses describing his "longsuffering" and "patient" attributes? If God sees everything in the present tense, would he need to be patient or longsuffering?

I'm sure being God he can step out of time and within. Jesus was within human time while His Father in Heaven was not. God is eternal, omnipresent and omnipotent. He's not "bound" by time although He can work within time.

I don't know if I explained that right....sorry too much Starbucks today.....

[Sincere]

I've never listened to John Hagee. I wouldn't know him if I tripped over him....

Romans 9 is speaking Of ISRAEL!!!!!

Chapter 9 deals primarily with Israel’s PAST (as God’s chosen and privileged people).

The first part of Romans 9 deals with God's choice of nations and their roles in His plans, not individuals.

Vs. 1-5 makes it clear that the context is that of national choice, the Israelites. Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Vs. 6,7: This is confirmed in vs. 6,7 because all Israelites were not saved, and all Ishmaelites were not damned.

Vs. 13: Paul cites Mal. 1:2, in which God says that He favors the nation of Israel over the nation of Edom. Malachi 1:2-4 “I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places”. These scriptures are not referring to individual predestination as Calvinists assume; but are speaking of nations through corporate election. In speaking of Esau and Jacob it is not speaking of them as individuals, but in the context is speaking of them as nations; the Edomites (Ishmaelites) and the Israelites.

Furthermore, the phrase "I hate/I love" is a Hebrew idiom meaning "I do not favor/I favor" or “to love less/more” (see Luke 14:26-hate father and mother). God did not totally reject all Ishmaelites, but He did favor the Israelites.

Vs. 16 refers to God's choice of how to lead the nation of Israel through the wilderness, which was independent of Moses' will in the matter. Personal salvation is not in view in the original passage (Ex. 33:19). The emphasis is placed upon “compassion and mercy” in this scripture. Not on judgment! God will favor one nation over another because of that nations willingness to worship Him and seek Him. Even Israel lost that covering at times when they fell into sin and idolatry. It was only His great mercy and His covenant with Abraham that kept him from releasing them to the destruction with the world.

Vs. 18 is in the context of vs. 16 and vs. 17, which refers to God's temporal destruction of the Egyptians when they wanted to destroy Israel. The verse teaches that God caused His choice of Israel to stand regardless of Moses' attempts to help or Pharaoh's attempts to hinder. Neither Moses' nor Pharaoh's personal salvation was in view in these passages. God may harden a wicked man’s heart for His own purpose, but only because he is so hard that he won’t ever get saved anyway; so He will do so in order to serve His own purpose. God will do no evil to man, for there is no evil in God. 1 John 1:5 “This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.” His judgment will always be righteous, so that no man can say that God did not give him an opportunity to be saved when they stand before Him in judgment.

Vs. 20 God will form, use, or judge a man as He pleases, just as He did Pharaoh, but not until He first has a reason for judgment, so that His judgment will remain righteous. It is then, that He does what He pleases with a man. God would never take a righteous man and cause him to become wicked! But men such as Pharaoh had been hardened lest they might get saved after seeing Gods mighty works through the plagues. Even the worst sinners in the world might get saved if they had enough proof that God is real and almighty. But God has determined not to give men such evidence without having faith first, so therefore they are hardened. It is only through faith that men might be saved, and not through evidence of His power. Therefore those hard-hearted people who would not have faith, who also saw His mighty power, were not allowed to turn in repentance, but were rather hardened. Hebrews 11:6 “But without faith it is impossible to please him.”

Vs. 21-23 refers to nations, which have either a glorious or judgmental role in history. The important thing to note here is where God says that He “endured with much longsuffering” the vessels of wrath. This shows that God never just decides to damn men to hell without cause. He endures with much longsuffering before making this choice. It is then that He will do whatever He wills. But He does endure with much longsuffering, because He is “not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” 2 Peter 3:9.


God has the right to divide Israel into two vessels: unbelieving Israel, which has become a "vessel of wrath prepared ("fit" or "suited") for destruction," and believing Israel, which along with Gentile believers, has become a "vessel of mercy." This could be why Paul mentioned his great sorrow in vs. 2. He himself felt so unworthy of salvation, after having persecuted the Christians. But now to see his brethren, the Israelites, who were cut off because of their unbelief in Christ only added to his sorrow and heaviness. And although it hurt him to see it, he understood that God had all the right to do with them as He pleased, even though the covenant with Abraham still remained valid for the Israelites. They had been given the opportunity to receive Jesus, but refused. So the wrath of God may be on those who not only refuse Christ, but also are separated from God, regardless their bloodline. In either case, Unconditional Election and Double Predestination are in no way referred to in this chapter.

If you view on Romans 9 is true, it has missed the eyes of God's people for more than 1500 years. When did God give you this new reverlation?

[Paul]

Tone down the sarcasm, Sincere. Stick to Scripture.

[CaiperLane]

If you view on Romans 9 is true, it has missed the eyes of God's people for more than 1500 years. When did God give you this new reverlation?

So wow Sincere...EVERYONE believed the way YOU do until I posted all of that!?!

Wow...I am SOOOOO cool.....:rolleyes




Maybe it is YOU that has missed something......:D:



Back at ya bro...:thumb

[mandoman]

I'm sure being God he can step out of time and within. Jesus was within human time while His Father in Heaven was not. God is eternal, omnipresent and omnipotent. He's not "bound" by time although He can work within time.

I don't know if I explained that right....sorry too much Starbucks today.....

No question...he certainly isn't "bound" by time. It's an interesting topic. I think where Peter says "a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day" lends some scriptural support, especially the "day is as a thousand years" part. If Peter were simply wanting to express God's eternality, the second part of the phase alone would have sufficed.

[JoelH]

If you view on Romans 9 is true, it has missed the eyes of God's people for more than 1500 years. When did God give you this new reverlation?

"First, in calling it new, they are exceedingly injurious to God, whose sacred word deserved not to be charged with novelty . . . That it long lay buried and unknown is the guilty consequence of man's impiety; but now when, by the kindness of God, it is restored to us, it ought to resume its antiquity just as the returning citizen resumes his rights."

Who said this? Ah yes, it is a gentleman by the name of Jean Chauvin, or in the form the English-speaking people are more familiar with, John Calvin. :wave

[CarolLyn]

Romans 9 is speaking Of ISRAEL!!!!!



Romans 9:23. And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24. even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

:):

[Deb]

I've never listened to John Hagee. I wouldn't know him if I tripped over him....

Romans 9 is speaking Of ISRAEL!!!!!

Chapter 9 deals primarily with Israel’s PAST (as God’s chosen and privileged people).

The first part of Romans 9 deals with God's choice of nations and their roles in His plans, not individuals.

Vs. 1-5 makes it clear that the context is that of national choice, the Israelites. Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Vs. 6,7: This is confirmed in vs. 6,7 because all Israelites were not saved, and all Ishmaelites were not damned.

Vs. 13: Paul cites Mal. 1:2, in which God says that He favors the nation of Israel over the nation of Edom. Malachi 1:2-4 “I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places”. These scriptures are not referring to individual predestination as Calvinists assume; but are speaking of nations through corporate election. In speaking of Esau and Jacob it is not speaking of them as individuals, but in the context is speaking of them as nations; the Edomites (Ishmaelites) and the Israelites.

Furthermore, the phrase "I hate/I love" is a Hebrew idiom meaning "I do not favor/I favor" or “to love less/more” (see Luke 14:26-hate father and mother). God did not totally reject all Ishmaelites, but He did favor the Israelites.

Vs. 16 refers to God's choice of how to lead the nation of Israel through the wilderness, which was independent of Moses' will in the matter. Personal salvation is not in view in the original passage (Ex. 33:19). The emphasis is placed upon “compassion and mercy” in this scripture. Not on judgment! God will favor one nation over another because of that nations willingness to worship Him and seek Him. Even Israel lost that covering at times when they fell into sin and idolatry. It was only His great mercy and His covenant with Abraham that kept him from releasing them to the destruction with the world.

Vs. 18 is in the context of vs. 16 and vs. 17, which refers to God's temporal destruction of the Egyptians when they wanted to destroy Israel. The verse teaches that God caused His choice of Israel to stand regardless of Moses' attempts to help or Pharaoh's attempts to hinder. Neither Moses' nor Pharaoh's personal salvation was in view in these passages. God may harden a wicked man’s heart for His own purpose, but only because he is so hard that he won’t ever get saved anyway; so He will do so in order to serve His own purpose. God will do no evil to man, for there is no evil in God. 1 John 1:5 “This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.” His judgment will always be righteous, so that no man can say that God did not give him an opportunity to be saved when they stand before Him in judgment.

Vs. 20 God will form, use, or judge a man as He pleases, just as He did Pharaoh, but not until He first has a reason for judgment, so that His judgment will remain righteous. It is then, that He does what He pleases with a man. God would never take a righteous man and cause him to become wicked! But men such as Pharaoh had been hardened lest they might get saved after seeing Gods mighty works through the plagues. Even the worst sinners in the world might get saved if they had enough proof that God is real and almighty. But God has determined not to give men such evidence without having faith first, so therefore they are hardened. It is only through faith that men might be saved, and not through evidence of His power. Therefore those hard-hearted people who would not have faith, who also saw His mighty power, were not allowed to turn in repentance, but were rather hardened. Hebrews 11:6 “But without faith it is impossible to please him.”

Vs. 21-23 refers to nations, which have either a glorious or judgmental role in history. The important thing to note here is where God says that He “endured with much longsuffering” the vessels of wrath. This shows that God never just decides to damn men to hell without cause. He endures with much longsuffering before making this choice. It is then that He will do whatever He wills. But He does endure with much longsuffering, because He is “not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” 2 Peter 3:9.


God has the right to divide Israel into two vessels: unbelieving Israel, which has become a "vessel of wrath prepared ("fit" or "suited") for destruction," and believing Israel, which along with Gentile believers, has become a "vessel of mercy." This could be why Paul mentioned his great sorrow in vs. 2. He himself felt so unworthy of salvation, after having persecuted the Christians. But now to see his brethren, the Israelites, who were cut off because of their unbelief in Christ only added to his sorrow and heaviness. And although it hurt him to see it, he understood that God had all the right to do with them as He pleased, even though the covenant with Abraham still remained valid for the Israelites. They had been given the opportunity to receive Jesus, but refused. So the wrath of God may be on those who not only refuse Christ, but also are separated from God, regardless their bloodline. In either case, Unconditional Election and Double Predestination are in no way referred to in this chapter.

Amen and Amen ... all very well put.

[Deb]

If you view on Romans 9 is true, it has missed the eyes of God's people for more than 1500 years. When did God give you this new reverlation?

I think I've said some of the same, and listed a few articles that would agree with this as well in another thread. As a Calvinist, you may have only read Calvinistic views on these scriptures and not realize that other people actually do have a scriptural basis for a differing view than that which you hold.

There was more to Christian history than the Roman Catholic Church and then the protestant reformation. There were those who never adhered to the RCC to begin with, therefore had no need to protest.

Those reformers who protested the Catholic Church actually retained some of that Catholocism IMHO -- like infant baptism, and murdering those who disagree with their doctrine. However, some, such as the AnaBaptists never persecuted or murdered those who did not agree with them.

I say all of this to say, there is more out there than those who adhere to the doctrines you hold to -- therefore "it has missed the eyes of God's people for more than 1500 years" would only hold true if you lay claim that Calvinists have the corner on truth and these things have missed their eyes -- and in fact, I do believe that this is what you are saying. Of course, I disagree.

[Deb]

Romans 9:23. And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24. even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. :):

I think she already said that:

God has the right to divide Israel into two vessels: unbelieving Israel, which has become a "vessel of wrath prepared ("fit" or "suited") for destruction," and believing Israel, which along with Gentile believers, has become a "vessel of mercy."

Yet it does not take away from the point being made that Paul is dealing with nations.

[JoelH]

As others have said, it is unwise to build election theology based on Romans 9. The whole context of these passages are on the questions of the Jewish nation.

[Sincere]

As others have said, it is unwise to build election theology based on Romans 9. The whole context of these passages are on the questions of the Jewish nation.

Start at Romans 8:28 and read all the way through Romans 11 and election will be clear. Read the book as it is meant to be - namely, in context.

[CaiperLane]

Start at Romans 8:28 and read all the way through Romans 11 and election will be clear. Read the book as it is meant to be - namely, in context.

I think we're all capable of reading Romans in context. The posts stand because they ARE within the context.

[Sincere]

So wow Sincere...EVERYONE believed the way YOU do until I posted all of that!?!

Wow...I am SOOOOO cool.....:rolleyes




Maybe it is YOU that has missed something......:D:



Back at ya bro...:thumb

I dont know why you're so staunch in your belief when I've proved from scripture that are wrong. It seems you like being adamant for the sake of being adamant (even when you're wrong!). None of you have answered my posts. I have showed from scripture, the reason why some people believe and have become Christians, and have asked for just one verse or ONE scripture that teach men can believe and repent in and of themselves. Were are the answers? Again, I can show why some believe...scriptures are clear that God is the one whom gives them faith. Were are your scripture that teach anyone can be saved in and of their own abality to repent and believe? Moreover, where are your scriptures to show that men want to repent and believe? Again, I KNOW that a person can recieve nothing (including correct understand) unless it be granted from Heaven (John3:27) and that you will only go on to maturity in doctrine if God permits (Heb 6:3), but I also know he gives grace to the humble. Therefore, I am certian that if those whom are called by God would humble themselves, they will be able to get this simple truth: Salvation - all of it - is of the Lord! And with that, you will learn to glory in...if God permits.

[Enlightenment]

and have asked for just one verse or ONE scripture that teach men can believe and repent in and of themselves. Were are the answers?

Of course, no one can be saved unless the Holy Spirit calls and convicts them. But since you asked....

2 Chronicles 7:14 if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

Jeremiah 29: 12 Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

Mark 8:34 When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, “Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.

Matthew 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.

[Sincere]

Mark 8:34 When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, “Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.

Matthew 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.

OK...great. Where does it say that those people obeyed? What command of God did any man in any time ever obey? So sorry homey, you dont answer the question. Give me ONE scripture that says that anyone has in and if themself obeyed God by repenting and trusting Jesus. If you want, I can show you were it says why some people did repent and believe.

[Sincere]

The Born again Process that Jesus spoke about in John 3

I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. - Ezk 36:25-2

Notice all the "I" in there? God does the work in us to make us believe and keep his commandments and love him, etc.

[Sincere]

Enlightenment

Of course, no one can be saved unless the Holy Spirit calls and convicts them. But since you asked....

That's right..."No one can come unless the father draws them" With man's free will, he does not come, even though He knows he should from the testimony of his conscience. That said however, does God call everyone? Did he call the people in Mark 4:11-12 for example?

2 Chronicles 7:14 if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

Did they ever come and seek God's face apart from his grace? Finish the reading and come back and tell me. I'm actually reading the Old Testatment now and the one thing I notice is that NONE have kept the law, hence the reason for the new covernant. What man couldnt do because of his stoney heart, God would do by grace. Note all the scriptures dealing with the new covernant to which Jesus inacted. You can start with Ezk 36:35-37

Jeremiah 29: 12 Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

The first thing I learned from studying the Bible is the importance of context. You cannot pull a scripture out of the bible and then build a theology out of it - thats how cults get started. Here, do this: Read Jeremiah in context and you'll see why anyone who ever kept God's laws was able to. Moreover, you'll see why those who were able tor repent and seek God were able to. This is what you must understand bro...All of Life is grace. If you are able to repent, that is of God. This is why those who understand these things live radical life for him - we know what he has done, namely take radically depraved sinners and changed their natures to love him.

Mark 8:34 When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, “Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.

You have to know that you are not helping your case, but instead mine. Why does anyone deny self and come after Christ? The Gospel goes out to EVERY man everywhere and man has a responsible to come. But, who believes? This is the question that you are NOT answering. What does scripture say?

Matthew 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.

Who seeks after God's kingdom? Who loves God?

[JoelH]

[QUOTE=Sincere;3880473]Start at Romans 8:28 and read all the way through Romans 11 and election will be clear. Read the book as it is meant to be - namely, in context.QUOTE]

Amen...the whole section focuses on...the Joooos! [/anti-Semitic mode]:D:

Israel.

[Sincere]

[QUOTE=Sincere;3880473]Start at Romans 8:28 and read all the way through Romans 11 and election will be clear. Read the book as it is meant to be - namely, in context.QUOTE]

Amen...the whole section focuses on...the Joooos! [/anti-Semitic mode]:D:

Israel.

Seriously, do you guys read through "free will" glasses? How could you say that Romans 8:28 through Romans 11 is speaking about Jews only when Romans 8:28 starts with "all those who love God?" Do you love God? If so, it says in v29 that you were "predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son" and then it goes on to explain predestination and election. Good advice is only good if heeded, therefore do this: Read Romans 8:28 through Romans 11 and just let the scriptures interprete itself. DO NOT read into the scriptures any of your preconcieved ideas and again, just let the Bible interprete itself. Start off establishing "what is being discussed," "how it is described," and "who is being refered to."

[CaiperLane]

[QUOTE=JoelH;3880544]

Seriously, do you guys read through "free will" glasses? How could you say that Romans 8:28 through Romans 11 is speaking about Jews only when Romans 8:28 starts with "all those who love God?" Do you love God? If so, it says in v29 that you were "predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son" and then it goes on to explain predestination and election. Good advice is only good if heeded, therefore do this: Read Romans 8:28 through Romans 11 and just let the scriptures interprete itself. DO NOT read into the scriptures any of your preconcieved ideas and again, just let the Bible interprete itself. Start off establishing "what is being discussed," "how it is described," and "who is being refered to."

Who says we have never or are not reading the scriptures without preconceived notions?

Historically and theologically THAT is where Paul was writing from. That was the perspective he was attempting to express. THAT is a fact....and NOT up for interpretation.

C'mon Sincere you're nitpicking....scripture after scripture has been presented to you through this ENTIRE thread..... :rolleyes




I say.....BACK to the knock, knock jokes!!! :D:

[Sincere]

[QUOTE=Sincere;3880552]

Who says we have never or are not reading the scriptures without preconceived notions?

Historically and theologically THAT is where Paul was writing from. That was the perspective he was attempting to express. THAT is a fact....and NOT up for interpretation.

C'mon Sincere you're nitpicking....scripture after scripture has been presented to you through this ENTIRE thread..... :rolleyes


I say.....BACK to the knock, knock jokes!!! :D:

Read Romans 8:28 through Romans 11 in context and you WILL KNOW that Romans 9 IS talking about election by sovereign grace. *Forest Gump's voice* "And thats all I have to say about that."

[Sincere]

So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. - Romans 11:5-6

Salvation has always been God's free gift to wicked sinners. It is undeserved and unmerited and given only to those God wills to give it to. Moreover, those whom he has chosen have been chosen from before the world's were. Thus, Jesus says, "my sheep know me and follow me." You are not a sheep because you believe, but you believe because you are a sheep. You guys need to stop robbing God of His glory! Contrary to popular belief, "ignorance is not bliss!" Rather, God's people die for a lack of knowledge.

[JoelH]

[QUOTE=Sincere;3880552]

Who says we have never or are not reading the scriptures without preconceived notions?

Historically and theologically THAT is where Paul was writing from. That was the perspective he was attempting to express. THAT is a fact....and NOT up for interpretation.

C'mon Sincere you're nitpicking....scripture after scripture has been presented to you through this ENTIRE thread..... :rolleyes




I say.....BACK to the knock, knock jokes!!! :D:

Knock, knock.

"Who's there?"

"Calvin!"

"Kevin, or Calvin?"

[Deb]

So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. - Romans 11:5-6

Salvation has always been God's free gift to wicked sinners. It is undeserved and unmerited and given only to those God wills to give it to. Moreover, those whom he has chosen have been chosen from before the world's were. Thus, Jesus says, "my sheep know me and follow me." You are not a sheep because you believe, but you believe because you are a sheep. You guys need to stop robbing God of His glory! Contrary to popular belief, "ignorance is not bliss!" Rather, God's people die for a lack of knowledge.


Let's take that verse in context.

"I ask then, has God rejected His people [the jews]? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. [Paul leaves no other interpretation possible than that he is talking about the nation of Israel in these verses ... Israelite, descendant of Abraham, etc.] God has not rejected His people (the Jews) whom He forknew. Do you not know what the scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your alters, and I alone am left. And they seek my life." But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself 7,000 men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." [He had a criteria -- those who did not bow the knee to Baal.] So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works [the law won't get the Jews or anyone else in] otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

OK, so God had a criteria for choosing a remnant -- those who did now bow the knee to Baal. He also has a criteria for the remnant today. Those who believe on His Son. The Holy Spirit draws, men believe or reject. IMHO, none can come without being drawn but that drawing is not irrestible. Men can and do reject. As we go on through Chapter 11, that is plainly seen. Just as Ez. 18 gives it in plain writing that those who obey are made righteous, and those who do not are wicked ... that the wicked can turn and be made righteous ... this is all given at the end of Chapter 11, as it is told " ... even they, if they continue not in their unbelief, will be grafted back in."

You are a remnant if you believe. Believe what? On His Son. The Calvinist will argue that God must give the belief, as though believing itself is a work. That conclusion is come to through much hoop jumping and twisting things around, and then it still does not make sense -- other than to the Calvinist who sees only with Calvin's glasses.

In the end, if there is exclusion at all (for a moment) then it is for the purpose of inclusion in the end (that Israel might become jealous). And yet, this exclusion/inclusion is about the nation, as individual Jews have always been able to come to Him. If they believe.

A remnant how? Through grace. There is no working our way to heaven, it is by His grace. Who may come and be part of that remnant? Whosoever. How? By the grace of God, in the provision of the blood offering, His own Son. Who was that offering for? Not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world. It's by grace --- He has provided the only acceptable sin offering, and we can not do works to attain His approval. It is by His grace. It's a gift to whosoever. A gift that can be rejected and tossed aside.

[Enlightenment]

OK...great. Where does it say that those people obeyed? What command of God did any man in any time ever obey? So sorry homey, you dont answer the question. Give me ONE scripture that says that anyone has in and if themself obeyed God by repenting and trusting Jesus. If you want, I can show you were it says why some people did repent and believe.

If you want to move the goalposts and change your question, I'm not playing. Originally you asked:

I have asked for just one verse or ONE scripture that teach men can believe and repent in and of themselves.

But now you are asking:

Give me ONE scripture that says that anyone has in and if themself obeyed God by repenting and trusting Jesus.

[Enlightenment]

The Born again Process that Jesus spoke about in John 3

I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. - Ezk 36:25-2


The first thing I learned from studying the Bible is the importance of context. You cannot pull a scripture out of the bible and then build a theology out of it - thats how cults get started.

http://i16.tinypic.com/4hk2byx.gif

[HeIsEnough]

I have asked for just one verse or ONE scripture that teach men can believe and repent in and of themselves.

I'll play. :heh


Acts 10

Cornelius Calls for Peter
1At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. 2He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. 3One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, "Cornelius!"

4Cornelius stared at him in fear. "What is it, Lord?" he asked.

The angel answered, "Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. 5Now send men to Joppa to bring back a man named Simon who is called Peter. 6He is staying with Simon the tanner, whose house is by the sea."


Done.

[CaiperLane]

[QUOTE=CaiperLane;3880563]

Read Romans 8:28 through Romans 11 in context and you WILL KNOW that Romans 9 IS talking about election by sovereign grace. *Forest Gump's voice* "And thats all I have to say about that."

Okay. I read it again. IN CONTEXT.





EHHHHHHH! (game show buzzer)





It's STILL talking about Israel........






NOT election.........







If I stare at it LONG enough will it change???? :wacko

[CaiperLane]

So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. - Romans 11:5-6

Salvation has always been God's free gift to wicked sinners. It is undeserved and unmerited and given only to those God wills to give it to. Moreover, those whom he has chosen have been chosen from before the world's were. Thus, Jesus says, "my sheep know me and follow me." You are not a sheep because you believe, but you believe because you are a sheep. You guys need to stop robbing God of His glory! Contrary to popular belief, "ignorance is not bliss!" Rather, God's people die for a lack of knowledge.


That is ALSO a term used by those who believe in election and limited atonement. If we can accept Christ because God though his Spirit has planted a seed faith in ALL of us to make that choice freely, we are "robbing" God of His glory.

Impossible! How could this be? God receives the Glory for the things He has done that we could NEVER accomplish! We could NEVER offer a sacrifice that meets God's standards for sin. We could never be "good" enough to get to Heaven on our own. We don't have the power to raise the dead. God sacrificed His Son on the cross for US, then raised Him from the dead so we might have eternal life.

THAT is God's Grace. ALL glory belongs to Him because of THAT very thing! No man could have accomplished what only God can.

Just because God allows us to make the choice in no way takes away ANYTHING from Almighty God. Until WE choose for Chrisr, we are NOT regenerated. Once we are born again the Holy Spirit dwells in us.

Scripture twisting is not acceptable. By John Calvin or anyone who believes his theology. Romans 8-11 is Paul discussing the state of the Jews, Israel and God's hand in the nations within HIs will. Placing ANOTHER, unintended meaning within these passages is creating false doctrine. But......we all live and learn....the worst thing is Sincere that you have been more than a person who stands by what they believe. The problem within this thread is that anyone who takes the Bible for what is was meant to say is wrong, confused, uneducated and misguided.

I've had Jehovah Witnesses tell me that before.....but they have a different Bible than us.

[BHiles]

That is ALSO a term used by those who believe in election and limited atonement. If we can accept Christ because God though his Spirit has planted a seed faith in ALL of us to make that choice freely, we are "robbing" God of His glory.

Impossible! How could this be? God receives the Glory for the things He has done that we could NEVER accomplish! We could NEVER offer a sacrifice that meets God's standards for sin. We could never be "good" enough to get to Heaven on our own. We don't have the power to raise the dead. God sacrificed His Son on the cross for US, then raised Him from the dead so we might have eternal life.

THAT is God's Grace. ALL glory belongs to Him because of THAT very thing! No man could have accomplished what only God can.

Just because God allows us to make the choice in no way takes away ANYTHING from Almighty God. Until WE choose for Chrisr, we are NOT regenerated. Once we are born again the Holy Spirit dwells in us.




Exactly Caper:thumb

Some take the measure of faith and place it in works. some take the faith God gave them and place it in the Pope or their Priest. And Some who have chosen to place that measure in Jesus Christ get saved. But all get the measure of faith from God.

[CarolLyn]

Ephesians 1:3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4. just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6. to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
Ephesians 1:11. also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12. to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
Jude 4. For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
2 Thes. 1: 13. But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
John 15:16. "You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you.
Mark 4:11. And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God; but those who are outside get everything in parables,
12. in order that while seeing, they may see and not perceive; and while hearing, they may hear and not understand lest they return and be forgiven."
Matthew 22: 14. "For many are called, but few are chosen."
2 Peter 1: 10. Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
John 6:37. "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
Acts 13:48. And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
John 6:44. "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
Proverbs 16: 4. The Lord has made all things for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

[CaiperLane]

Those verses need to be read in context. :D:

[Hootmon]

If God sees everything in the present tense, would he need to be patient or longsuffering?Of course. His being outside of time doesnt change the fact that we are inside of time and still need His patience.

[CanuckMedic]

'Calvinism', or its equivalent, seems to have a 'problem' with seeing God as being 'outside of time'. That 'blindness' is what results in a 'no free will' view, IMO.

God sees the Ending the same as the Beginning. He is both places simultaneously. He knows how we will decide based on His call. His message to us (within time) demonstrates this. Those who 'hear' have 'ears'. We are those chosen.

We are 'elect' because we have already chosen (from God's point of view). We heard...

Seems very simple to me...

I'm convinced this whole Free Will vs Election problem isn't really a problem at all. It's simply two different perspectives on the same thing.

God is right now in eternity. He created time, and placed us in it. However, we are also in eternity as well. Eternity is outside of time. We are, "now", in eternity with God, and "always have been". Therefore to some of us it seems like we have been Predestined. To others it's clear God did not "Predestine" us but simply called all and has seen from the beginning and end what would happen...

It is simply a matter of semantics, but honestly it has no bearing on our salvation. Forseen/Forchosen are the same thing to an Eternal being. We just can't wrap our minds around it because we are in time right now, and "look through a glass dimly".

[BHiles]

I'm convinced this whole Free Will vs Election problem isn't really a problem at all. It's simply two different perspectives on the same thing.

God is right now in eternity. He created time, and placed us in it. However, we are also in eternity as well. Eternity is outside of time. We are, "now", in eternity with God, and "always have been". Therefore to some of us it seems like we have been Predestined. To others it's clear God did not "Predestine" us but simply called all and has seen from the beginning and end what would happen...

It is simply a matter of semantics, but honestly it has no bearing on our salvation. Forseen/Forchosen are the same thing to an Eternal being. We just can't wrap our minds around it because we are in time right now, and "look through a glass dimly".


Exactly :thumb but here is the clicher for me. Just a bit further in that verse.

but then shall I know even as also I am known.

I am already known by God. I shall one day know me as He now knows me. Sinless, Justified, Perfected a Citizen of Heaven, A friend of God.

[Gingercookiemor]

Setapart wrote:

i also wonder about the moment when Jesus stopped everyone from casting stones at the adulterer---

1. either she was "chosen" and told "go and sin no more"
2. or she was not chosen and was told to "go and sin no more"

according to calvinism...why, if she WAS chosen, would he bother telling her to "go and sin no more" because she would go to heaven just because of her "elected status"....it doesn't really inspire one to be more "christ-like" in their living.

or
if she was NOT chosen, why would Jesus bother to tell her to "sin no more?" since it really doesnt' matter--she is going to hell anyway.

My questions are these:

1. What would Jesus have said to a Christian, a saved person, a born again believer in that case? ...why, if she WAS a Christian, would he bother telling her to "go and sin no more" because she would go to heaven just because of her "saved status."

or

2. What would Jesus have said to a non Christian, a lost person, a unrepented sinner in that case? if she was NOT a Christian, why would Jesus bother to tell her to "sin no more?" since it really doesnt' matter--she is going to hell anyway.

Setapart, I don't follow your logic. I don't see that Christ being a Calvinist or not being a Calvinist has any effect on his statements in your example.

Yours in Christ,

_________________

[Crusader]

i also wonder about the moment when Jesus stopped everyone from casting stones at the adulterer---

1. either she was "chosen" and told "go and sin no more"
2. or she was not chosen and was told to "go and sin no more"

according to calvinism...why, if she WAS chosen, would he bother telling her to "go and sin no more" because she would go to heaven just because of her "elected status"....it doesn't really inspire one to be more "christ-like" in their living.

or
if she was NOT chosen, why would Jesus bother to tell her to "sin no more?" since it really doesnt' matter--she is going to hell anyway.

1. If she was chosen, telling her to not sin certainly would inspire her to be more Christ-like" in her living. If Christ told you Himself not to sin anymore, wouldn't that inspire you? Especially after seeing his love and forgiveness.

I think you are confusing this with telling her she is chosen. However, if she was chosen she would already be convicted of her sin and desire not to sin. That is the nature of the chosen. So telling the chosen that they are chosen and secure in their salvation does not give them a license to sin, because by their new nature they hate sin.

2. If she was not chosen, telling her to sin no more would benefit her because if she listened, at least she would not be judged for those sins. If you are judged and punished for the sins you commit, doesn't it makes sense that the less sins you commit the less punishment you get?

[CaiperLane]

1. If she was chosen, telling her to not sin certainly would inspire her to be more Christ-like" in her living. If Christ told you Himself not to sin anymore, wouldn't that inspire you? Especially after seeing his love and forgiveness.

I think you are confusing this with telling her she is chosen. However, if she was chosen she would already be convicted of her sin and desire not to sin. That is the nature of the chosen. So telling the chosen that they are chosen and secure in their salvation does not give them a license to sin, because by their new nature they hate sin.

2. If she was not chosen, telling her to sin no more would benefit her because if she listened, at least she would not be judged for those sins. If you are judged and punished for the sins you commit, doesn't it makes sense that the less sins you commit the less punishment you get?

Of course this was all a BIG secret that Jesus didn't reveal right? :rolleyes

[Crusader]

But Jesus did reveal it; to His disciples who revealed it to us through scripture.

[CaiperLane]

But Jesus did reveal it; to His disciples who revealed it to us through scripture.

Depends on how you twist...no...er...I mean interpret it. :heh :B:

[HeIsEnough]

Exactly :thumb but here is the clicher for me. Just a bit further in that verse.

but then shall I know even as also I am known.

I am already known by God. I shall one day know me as He now knows me. Sinless, Justified, Perfected a Citizen of Heaven, A friend of God.

:thumb

[SetApart]

1. If she was chosen, telling her to not sin certainly would inspire her to be more Christ-like" in her living. If Christ told you Himself not to sin anymore, wouldn't that inspire you? Especially after seeing his love and forgiveness.


I think you are confusing this with telling her she is chosen. However, if she was chosen she would already be convicted of her sin and desire not to sin. That is the nature of the chosen. So telling the chosen that they are chosen and secure in their salvation does not give them a license to sin, because by their new nature they hate sin.

2. If she was not chosen, telling her to sin no more would benefit her because if she listened, at least she would not be judged for those sins. If you are judged and punished for the sins you commit, doesn't it makes sense that the less sins you commit the less punishment you get?

just trying to figure out the mentality of the pre-ordained crowd...i was thinking out loud on this scenario and trying to understand the "why's" in that situation. my point was that i think basic human nature is less inclined to live to higher standards ESPECIALLY if they believe that they are "chosen"...

not saying it isn't possible--but i am sure you can see my point...

[Crusader]

just trying to figure out the mentality of the pre-ordained crowd...i was thinking out loud on this scenario and trying to understand the "why's" in that situation. my point was that i think basic human nature is less inclined to live to higher standards ESPECIALLY if they believe that they are "chosen"...

not saying it isn't possible--but i am sure you can see my point...

Certainly I see your point. Paul even addressed this, knowing that this kind of objection would come up.

Romans 6:1-2 "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? "

Here is a good article that addresses this:

Is eternal security a "license" to sin? (http://www.gotquestions.org/license-sin.html)

Question: "Is eternal security a "license" to sin?"

Answer: The most frequent objection to the doctrine of eternal security is that it supposedly promotes the idea that Christians can live any way that they want to - and still be saved. While this is "technically" true, that is not the "essence" of eternal security. A person who has truly accepted Jesus Christ as his or her Savior "can" live a sinful life - but he or she "will" not do so. We must draw a distinction between how a Christian should live - and what a person must do in order to receive salvation.

The Bible is abundantly clear that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; John 14:6). A person is saved by faith - faith alone. The moment a person truly believes in Jesus Christ, he/she is saved and secure in that salvation. Salvation is not gained by faith, but then maintained by works. The Apostle Paul addresses this issue in Galatians 3:3, "Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" If we are saved by faith, our salvation is also maintained and secured by faith. We cannot earn our own salvation. Therefore, we cannot earn the maintenance of our salvation either. It is God who maintains our salvation (Jude verse 24). It is God's hand that holds us firmly in His grasp (John 10:28-29). It is God's love that nothing can separate us from (Romans 8:38-39).


continue... (http://www.gotquestions.org/license-sin.html)

[SetApart]

Certainly I see your point. Paul even addressed this, knowing that this kind of objection would come up.

Romans 6:1-2 "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? "

Here is a good article that addresses this:

Is eternal security a "license" to sin? (http://www.gotquestions.org/license-sin.html)

that part makes sense..

[CaiperLane]

Well at least for me, I am eternally secure because God promised me I would be if I accepted His Son as my Savior.

But things like Heavenly rewards and letting my light shine for Jesus to bring the unsaved to a knowledge of the Good News encourages me NOT to sin and when I do to immediately repent.

I wonder where I got that idea? Must have been from the Bible.....

I wasn't chosen to be saved. I am loved by God because He said so. He loved me enough to die for me. So, what's a better way to thank Him for His sacrifice than to believe???

[Crusader]

Well, congratulations.

[Deb]

Well at least for me, I am eternally secure because God promised me I would be if I accepted His Son as my Savior.

But things like Heavenly rewards and letting my light shine for Jesus to bring the unsaved to a knowledge of the Good News encourages me NOT to sin and when I do to immediately repent.

I wonder where I got that idea? Must have been from the Bible.....

I wasn't chosen to be saved. I am loved by God because He said so. He loved me enough to die for me. So, what's a better way to thank Him for His sacrifice than to believe???

The day put my trust in Christ for salvation, I was sealed by the Holy Spirit. Sin -- hurts too much. After a time of being a Christian (I've been a Christian for 37 years now) I backslid, and went into this cycle of backslide/repent over and over again. Even though there was a pull to backslide, I would be heartbroken. The seemingly irresistable pull was a boyfriend, who I "hoped" would come to Christ. Instead, he pulled me into his lifestyle. I would literally cry while getting ready to go out with him and his friends. After 6 years, and much inward conviction and pain, I took steps to get beyond this. For me, that meant removing myself from this person as far as I possibly could (flee temptation). God met me, forgave me, and I began to really grow. For the saved who go on sinning, it is never the same. Sin isn't the same anymore! It hurts so much! I know that if I had died in that state, I'd have gone to heaven. When I trusted Christ for salvation, I trusted that He died for my SIN, not just my sins. To me, there's a difference. He died for my past, present and future sins.

The one who is truly saved cannot stand to go on sinning. They may for a time, but they cannot stand it. At least I couldn't.

I am not a Calvinist, but I do agree with eternal security. I just don't get there by route of a Calvinist teaching ... "since He chose me, he won't unchoose me." I simply understand that once I believed on Him, I was sealed. And I was -- the Holy Spirit has never left me alone for a moment, sinning or not. He guides, convicts, teaches me in the Word. Praise God, when He ascended, He didn't leave us alone. Praise God for the Holy Spirit.

Now, the thought of ever going back to that backslide/repent state is a horrible thought. I want to flee as far as I ever possibly could, and continually keep my heart before Him, never taking for granted that I am strong, lest I fall. The Lord has blessed mightily with a Godly husband and children - some adult, some still growing, all loving the Lord and serving Him! I love Him so much, I desire to serve Him with my whole heart.

[CountryPerson]

. . . . . For the saved who go on sinning, it is never the same. Sin isn't the same anymore! It hurts so much! I know that if I had died in that state, I'd have gone to heaven. When I trusted Christ for salvation, I trusted that He died for my SIN, not just my sins. To me, there's a difference. He died for my past, present and future sins.

The one who is truly saved cannot stand to go on sinning. They may for a time, but they cannot stand it. At least I couldn't.

I am not a Calvinist, but I do agree with eternal security. I just don't get there by route of a Calvinist teaching ... "since He chose me, he won't unchoose me." I simply understand that once I believed on Him, I was sealed. And I was -- the Holy Spirit has never left me alone for a moment, sinning or not. He guides, convicts, teaches me in the Word. Praise God, when He ascended, He didn't leave us alone. Praise God for the Holy Spirit.

Now, the thought of ever going back to that backslide/repent state is a horrible thought. I want to flee as far as I ever possibly could, and continually keep my heart before Him, never taking for granted that I am strong, lest I fall. The Lord has blessed mightily with a Godly husband and children - some adult, some still growing, all loving the Lord and serving Him! I love Him so much, I desire to serve Him with my whole heart.
Great post, Deb! What a wonderful testimony of God's 'holding' power in each of our lives.
A few years ago, I tried on the 'Calvinist hat' and wore it for awhile, thinking that I agreed with their doctrine. Like so many people, I had not really researched it, just heard the few basic tenets regarding 'election,' and began to read the Scriptures from their perspective that they used to 'prove' their Calvinism. The longer I wore 'their hat,' the more discouraged I became; I lost my joy. The Question that always begs to be asked is, "What if I'm deceiving myself, and I'm not really chosen after all?" I'm so thankful for a man named Dave Hunt who has written a book called, "What Love is This?" Its well-researched and describes Calvinism from historical perspective and shows how much in error is in their teaching. Even though I had removed the 'Calvinist hat' before his book was published, it's a wonderful confirmation of the truth that God had already shown me. I highly recommend it.

[Deb]

Great post, Deb! What a wonderful testimony of God's 'holding' power in each of our lives.
A few years ago, I tried on the 'Calvinist hat' and wore it for awhile, thinking that I agreed with their doctrine. Like so many people, I had not really researched it, just heard the few basic tenets regarding 'election,' and began to read the Scriptures from their perspective that they used to 'prove' their Calvinism. The longer I wore 'their hat,' the more discouraged I became; I lost my joy. The Question that always begs to be asked is, "What if I'm deceiving myself, and I'm not really chosen after all?" I'm so thankful for a man named Dave Hunt who has written a book called, "What Love is This?" Its well-researched and describes Calvinism from historical perspective and shows how much in error is in their teaching. Even though I had removed the 'Calvinist hat' before his book was published, it's a wonderful confirmation of the truth thatod had already shown me. I highly recommend it.

Yes! I have "What Love is This." See, I researched Calvinism for a good 18 months back in '98-'99 ish, and came to all these conclusions that it was not correct. Right about the end of my studies, when my husband and I really understood where we were at with it, we went to Word of Life Family Campground for a vacation. Dave Hunt was the main speaker. Mind you, I had no idea where he stood. For all I knew, HE was a Calvinist. This was a few years before he wrote his book. I caught him out back of the hall where he was speaking, and asked him what he thought of this doctrine. See, I was amazed by his teaching in other areas. He is so smart, so knowledgeable in the Word, can quote Vatican 1 and 2, the Koran, and of course most importantly much, much scripture. I respected him!

His answer? It was "Would you mind asking me that during the Q&A on Friday? OK.

Come Friday I was sitting up front as far as I could. I think mine was the first question. His response to me practically listed in order all the conclusions my husband and I had come to in the scriptures, on our own. It was such a confirmation at the end of much prayer and scripture study.

Honestly, at the end of it all I was a changed woman. I would never go back to who I was. I had no idea how great God's love was for man until I studied this. His wrath was spent on Christ, on the cross -- no man need experience it, though they will by rejecting His offer. His Love and His Justice culminate at the cross, and this study brought understanding of that in a way I had not truly grasped up to that point.

Dave Hunt has certainly taken all kinds of abuse and mocking at the hands of Calvinists who proudly accuse him of lack of scholarship. I've read it all. I firmly disagree. Because he won't jump through their hoops they accuse him of not understanding. It is because he understands that he refuses to jump.

Thanks for filling me in on your experience with this!

Deb

[Deb]

The longer I wore 'their hat,' the more discouraged I became; I lost my joy. The Question that always begs to be asked is, "What if I'm deceiving myself, and I'm not really chosen after all?" I'm so thankful for a man named Dave Hunt who has written a book called, "What Love is This?"

I forgot to mention, had you heard of his book "Honest Doubts" that specifically deal with that issue? I think it is based upon his personal experience with a man who had become steeped in the doctrine, and seriously began to doubt whether or not he was "chosen."

[CaiperLane]

Great post, Deb! What a wonderful testimony of God's 'holding' power in each of our lives.
A few years ago, I tried on the 'Calvinist hat' and wore it for awhile, thinking that I agreed with their doctrine. Like so many people, I had not really researched it, just heard the few basic tenets regarding 'election,' and began to read the Scriptures from their perspective that they used to 'prove' their Calvinism. The longer I wore 'their hat,' the more discouraged I became; I lost my joy. The Question that always begs to be asked is, "What if I'm deceiving myself, and I'm not really chosen after all?" I'm so thankful for a man named Dave Hunt who has written a book called, "What Love is This?" Its well-researched and describes Calvinism from historical perspective and shows how much in error is in their teaching. Even though I had removed the 'Calvinist hat' before his book was published, it's a wonderful confirmation

:thumb Yes aside from Crusader's "sarcasm" towards my last post...I find Calvinists to be more than strong in their misguided beliefs. Many of them are downright arrogant (I said many NOT all) and I've had several go as far as claiming that if I don't believe in TULIP (Calvinism) and I preach against it I am spreading false gospel and I will answer to God for it.

I've studied Calvinism in school, on my own and have compared it to the scriptures and the study of the passages that Calvinists hold as proof texts. I don't buy it, it doesn't mesh with the rest of scripture or the personality of God whom has revealed who He is through His word.

Along with the fact that our dear Sincere who kept insisting that Romans 9 was speaking of election (chosen to be saved) which it clearly isn't, it is speaking of Israel, her people and nations, I find the scripture twisting frightening. Bending the meaning of scripture to support a belief system is dangerous to say the least.

And picking out pieces of history without telling the entire story is also as bad as scripture twisting. John Calvin was NOT a great man. He would turn on a dime with his opinions and doctrines, he wrote anti-semitic dialoge in his writings, he supported the murder of anyone who disagreed with his theology, (which in MY Bible murder is a sin and Christ said to turn the other cheek...but....I could be reading that wrong) and he was an absolute tyrant who used his position in the religious community for power, control and profit.

So considering that Calvinism's history is tainted, the theology does NOT stand up to the scriptures without some major twisting and re-interpretation, embracing it can draw you away from the very Truth and reasons why God does what He does, why Christ came here and how BIG His sacrifice really was....it's better to close that book and file it under T.

(for Tragic Theologies)

[CaiperLane]

Well, congratulations.

:D: I'm taking that as intended sarcasm....not meaness....usually you're entertaining....:heh :B:

[SetApart]

great posts caiper and deb!!! awesome!!!!

i have not studied calvinism or its position on scripture, so i am not one to pipe in on the scripture debates --- however, for what it is worth, i have had an intense reaction (and i will say a spiritual reaction, because that is what i know it to be) as i have tried to read some of the calvinism threads and the support of the pre-ordained/elected theology.

a few years ago, i attended a catholic service--i was ignorant of the catholic doctrine/practices to be honest...and this example shows you just HOW ignorant i was--but it spoke volumes to me---

anyway...the entire congregation was asked to get up and take communion at the front of the church. as i approached the end of the row to do just that, i was told by a "church official" that if i were not catholic, that i should either sit back down in my seat or go to the front and cross my arm over my chest and not take communion.

my spirit felt as though i had just received a 750,000 volt shock. i went back to my seat and immediately felt the need to run away from that place as hard and fast as i could---i felt that before the communion trauma, but not to that extent. it took everything i had within me to sit there and endure the rest of the "service".

i AM NOT SAYING that the catholic church or all its members are unsaved or not christian or anything like that---however, the practice of not allowing those who are saved and believe in Jesus Christ to participate in communion, is, in my opinion, very un-christ like and goes against God.

reading the calvinism stuff generates the same electric shock feeling in my spirit---God loves all of us...He chose all of us...we have the choice to accept Him and receive Him no matter who we are and what we have done.

i have learned that i need to trust the Holy Spirit that dwells inside of me when i get jolted like that---because where i am ignorant, i can still be led and guided --- my prayer is that anyone searching for God realizes that He loves them no matter if they are catholic, calvinistic, arminian, muslim, hindu, buddist, athiest, agnostic, younameit....

and we ALL have a choice to accept His free gift of salvation no matter what. it disturbs me to think that people are reading this stuff and are likely suffering from feeling rejected and not good enough for what ever reasons--and then to read more stuff about possibly not being chosen because God has not pre-ordained them to heaven---well-it upsets me greatly---

[Enlightenment]

anyway...the entire congregation was asked to get up and take communion at the front of the church. as i approached the end of the row to do just that, i was told by a "church official" that if i were not catholic, that i should either sit back down in my seat or go to the front and cross my arm over my chest and not take communion.

my spirit felt as though i had just received a 750,000 volt shock. i went back to my seat and immediately felt the need to run away from that place as hard and fast as i could---i felt that before the communion trauma, but not to that extent. it took everything i had within me to sit there and endure the rest of the "service".

i AM NOT SAYING that the catholic church or all its members are unsaved or not christian or anything like that---however, the practice of not allowing those who are saved and believe in Jesus Christ to participate in communion, is, in my opinion, very un-christ like and goes against God.


Actually, you are probably better off for NOT taking communion, at least in the way they offer it. Catholics believe the wafer and the wine literally becomes the actual body and blood of Jesus and that partaking of it grants you the forgiveness of sins. I've been to many Catholic services over the years (they almost always have communion, as they are seeking forgiveness) and I gladly pass up the chance to participate in doctrinal error.

[Deb]

well-it upsets me greatly---


I hear you ...

I pushed the whole issue aside for a few years, then I was told a few things that really made me go HUH???? partly being that infants who die go to heaven if elect, hell if not. I realize that not all Calvinists believe that, but I do believe it was consistant with John Calvin's beliefs.

I think one of the most ridiculous thoughts is that God would create men for the purpose of pouring His wrath on them so that His glory might be revealed.

His glory is not revealed in such an unfair move, to create a man who is in a helpless state to ever be free from sin -- not by his own choosing, but because this is how he was born and this is how he must stay, unless God irresistably draws him. And then when you say "That's not fair!" Romans 9 is quoted to you. And that isn't even what it's talking about!

It is obvious by the attributes of God as displayed throughout the scriptures that God is fair and just, and that simply is not justice -- to pick some and leave others hopeless. He promised a Savior, that all nations might be blessed. He is good to His Word, and it IS a slight on His charactor if He is NOT good to His Word.

So many will say "I'm just glad He chose me ... that's how I look at it!" That's good and well for the ones He supposedly chose, but for the one who was born hopeless and will remain hopeless throughout his life, how awful!

No, choice must be between 2 things to truly be a choice, and God -- in His Sovereignty, created mankind to choose. It started with Adam and Eve, and continued on with Cain (God told Cain that he must master sin! Was He tricking Him? Again, that is NOT the charactor of God! Obviously there was something Cain could do that he chose not to do).

All through the Old Testament it goes, and then continues through the New. That is why, when I tried to see Romans 9 through a Calvinist's eyes, I had to say to myself "Well, I know what that DOESN'T mean. Now I need to put these scriptures before the Lord and figure out what they do mean." And God was faithful. See, it's like the banks train people -- know the truth, and you'll recognize a counterfeit. I had come to know God to the point where I could say "That just isn't truth." I had a Calvinist say to me "I know you're having a hard time accepting this because it's hard." I had to say "No. I'm not accepting it because it simply isn't scriptural!"

[JIM]

Deb,
You wrote:Dave Hunt has certainly taken all kinds of abuse and mocking at the hands of Calvinists who proudly accuse him of lack of scholarship. I've read it all. I firmly disagree. Because he won't jump through their hoops they accuse him of not understanding. It is because he understands that he refuses to jump.
Actually it is because of his lack of scholarship that we calvinists take issue with him. As a matter of fact he has admitted on a radio show that he did with James White of Alpha and Omega ministries that he did not study what the refoormers wrote, has no training in the biblical languages etc... He then had his book come out not too long thereafter. (one can look up the accuracy of my statement regarding what I just said by going to AOMIN.ORG, and typing in Dave Hunt. He said it on a dividing line broadcast). How could one pssibly ever do all the reading into reformers positions and language study in less than a years time. That is why we accuse him of lack of scholarship. Would you not call into question someones scholarship if they said to you well, I never really studied or read up on something and then they come out with a book on the subject?? I would.
He was even offered to debate the issue, in a moderated format, by James White and has refused. He has done debates previously with Roman Cath apologists but refused to debate White on this subject.
He also made several erroneous errors in the book such as stating that Spurgeon did not believe in limited/particular atonement. that is a glaring error that shows lack of scholarship.
To be fair to Hunt he did coauthor a book with White "Debating Calvinism" which truly shows forth his lack of knowledge in this area. White does a very good job in showing where Hunt lacks in his critique of calvinism.

Jim

[allforHim]

:thumb Yes aside from Crusader's "sarcasm" towards my last post...I find Calvinists to be more than strong in their misguided beliefs. Many of them are downright arrogant (I said many NOT all) and I've had several go as far as claiming that if I don't believe in TULIP (Calvinism) and I preach against it I am spreading false gospel and I will answer to God for it.

I've studied Calvinism in school, on my own and have compared it to the scriptures and the study of the passages that Calvinists hold as proof texts. I don't buy it, it doesn't mesh with the rest of scripture or the personality of God whom has revealed who He is through His word.

Along with the fact that our dear Sincere who kept insisting that Romans 9 was speaking of election (chosen to be saved) which it clearly isn't, it is speaking of Israel, her people and nations, I find the scripture twisting frightening. Bending the meaning of scripture to support a belief system is dangerous to say the least.

And picking out pieces of history without telling the entire story is also as bad as scripture twisting. John Calvin was NOT a great man. He would turn on a dime with his opinions and doctrines, he wrote anti-semitic dialoge in his writings, he supported the murder of anyone who disagreed with his theology, (which in MY Bible murder is a sin and Christ said to turn the other cheek...but....I could be reading that wrong) and he was an absolute tyrant who used his position in the religious community for power, control and profit.

So considering that Calvinism's history is tainted, the theology does NOT stand up to the scriptures without some major twisting and re-interpretation, embracing it can draw you away from the very Truth and reasons why God does what He does, why Christ came here and how BIG His sacrifice really was....it's better to close that book and file it under T.

(for Tragic Theologies)


:clap :clap :clap :clap I followed your postings with Sincere and you were great! I could hardly wait for your next installment:nod Your patience is commendable and your study on the subject enlightening to those not bent on keeping to the lie!I too have done a lot of study on the subject(although nothing compared to you) I just wish I had your debating skills to go with it!You dont fancy coming round to my father in laws house and speaking to him ?l:lol hes a retired calvin minister :twitch

[CaiperLane]

Okay who's Dave Hunt? I've never heard of him....:confused

And Deb there are many other authors, pastors and theologians who have the theological education that write books and have some great material out there. I never choose what's trendy or popular. I stick with Biblically sound and informed.

Of course if someone is going to disagree with Calvinism they need to back up what they say with scripture and Biblical knowledge as well as historical.

I believe the Bible is all we need. The Holy Spirit will help you understand. No one, not a pastor, John Calvin or myself can teach you anything that God cannot. In fact, it's God who should teach us when we study scripture. We pray for understanding and allow the Holy Spirit to teach us the things of the Lord.

I read books by many authors. But...I don't take what they say as the final authority. I pray always that guidance and knowledge come from the Lord who knows the meaning behind his own Word. :):







How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation? (Hebrews 2:3).

[Deb]

Deb,
You wrote:Dave Hunt has certainly taken all kinds of abuse and mocking at the hands of Calvinists who proudly accuse him of lack of scholarship. I've read it all. I firmly disagree. Because he won't jump through their hoops they accuse him of not understanding. It is because he understands that he refuses to jump.
Actually it is because of his lack of scholarship that we calvinists take issue with him. As a matter of fact he has admitted on a radio show that he did with James White of Alpha and Omega ministries that he did not study what the refoormers wrote, has no training in the biblical languages etc... He then had his book come out not too long thereafter. (one can look up the accuracy of my statement regarding what I just said by going to AOMIN.ORG, and typing in Dave Hunt. He said it on a dividing line broadcast). How could one pssibly ever do all the reading into reformers positions and language study in less than a years time. That is why we accuse him of lack of scholarship. Would you not call into question someones scholarship if they said to you well, I never really studied or read up on something and then they come out with a book on the subject?? I would.
He was even offered to debate the issue, in a moderated format, by James White and has refused. He has done debates previously with Roman Cath apologists but refused to debate White on this subject.
He also made several erroneous errors in the book such as stating that Spurgeon did not believe in limited/particular atonement. that is a glaring error that shows lack of scholarship.
To be fair to Hunt he did coauthor a book with White "Debating Calvinism" which truly shows forth his lack of knowledge in this area. White does a very good job in showing where Hunt lacks in his critique of calvinism.

Jim


I expected this, and I've already read it all. I think DH does a good job in Debating Calvinism too, and JW never could explain away the Levitical Sacrafice to mine nor many other's satisfaction.

My scholarship is grossly lacking also, because I understand things in scripture much differantly than Calvinists do. And most Calvinists are very, very scholarly, so therefore it must be that we are wrong. Or perhaps I do understand, and just won't do the scriptural acrobats.

[CaiperLane]

:clap :clap :clap :clap I followed your postings with Sincere and you were great! I could hardly wait for your next installment:nod Your patience is commendable and your study on the subject enlightening to those not bent on keeping to the lie!I too have done a lot of study on the subject(although nothing compared to you) I just wish I had your debating skills to go with it!You dont fancy coming round to my father in laws house and speaking to him ?l:lol hes a retired calvin minister :twitch

Thank you....:redface

I've debated with several Calvinist leaders over the years. Everytime they become agitated and everytime they end the conversation with..."well you'll just have to take this on faith!" I realize that this a a no-win situation.

A person MUST seek answers from God with keeping in mind that they may be in error. It's a frightening place to be (I know) but it's the only way that we will be able to see what God wants us to see. We have to put away any preconceived ideas and allow ourselves a place where we can admit our wrongs. Pride is a tough thing to overcome for ANYONE. I know it is for me.

My patience comes from my constant requests to God for Patience! (I didn't have any for a looong time) I know we must watch our words...and we make a better point when we say what we need to in Love. Just as God is longsuffering to us, we need to do the same with each other.

Years ago when I was taught that knowing the Word was so important so you can "give an account of the Hope that is within you..." I find that studying the scriptures and knowing God's Word is more for fellow believers than non-believers. Because a non-believer could care less what the Bible has to say. But with a fellow believer knowing the Word helps you uplift others so they can grow in their walk with Christ.

There's alot I don't know about scripture. I'm not too familiar with theological patterning. (That's a common pattern in Biblical history that points to a message) Like blood shedding for sins in the OT points to the final sacrifice in Christ in the NT. But the Bible is filled with theological patterning and I'm studying that right now because of the implications it could have with witnessing to the Jewish people.

Oh as as for my debating skills I was in the Debate Club in high school. Learning to win a debate is much different than trying to win an argument. Lol! :D:

[Deb]

Okay who's Dave Hunt? I've never heard of him....:confused

And Deb there are many other authors, pastors and theologians who have the theological education that write books and have some great material out there. I never choose what's trendy or popular. I stick with Biblically sound and informed.

Of course if someone is going to disagree with Calvinism they need to back up what they say with scripture and Biblical knowledge as well as historical.

I believe the Bible is all we need. The Holy Spirit will help you understand. No one, not a pastor, John Calvin or myself can teach you anything that God cannot. In fact, it's God who should teach us when we study scripture. We pray for understanding and allow the Holy Spirit to teach us the things of the Lord.

I read books by many authors. But...I don't take what they say as the final authority. I pray always that guidance and knowledge come from the Lord who knows the meaning behind his own Word. :):







How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation? (Hebrews 2:3).


I wholeheartedly agree with you. My husband and I went to the Word first. It was cool though, when a studied man who I respected confirmed what we had found. If he hadn't I still would have relied on what I'd learned in the Word. But because I like him, I was curious as to his stand.

Here's Dave Hunt talking about his newest book, "Judgement Day," just to give you an idea of who he is.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jl5Mz5uJek0



He really deals mostly with end times prophecy, and you can find him in the "who's who" right here on RR.com

[CaiperLane]

I wholeheartedly agree with you. My husband and I went to the Word first. It was cool though, when a studied man who I respected confirmed what we had found. If he hadn't I still would have relied on what I'd learned in the Word. But because I like him, I was curious as to his stand.

Here's Dave Hunt talking about his newest book, "Judgement Day," just to give you an idea of who he is.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jl5Mz5uJek0



He really deals mostly with end times prophecy, and you can find him in the "who's who" right here on RR.com


Oh. Okay thanks. Very interesting.


Yes I've found several authors who have confirmed what I learned in scripture. Billy Graham was one where he said scripture supports this or that but doesn't mention this so be wary of churches making claim to that...


Deb, we're NOT in the minority and God will bless those who hold true to his Word and honor Him.

I trust that the Lord knows our hearts and will educate us the way He sees fit. :):

[Deb]

:clap :clap :clap :clap I followed your postings with Sincere and you were great! I could hardly wait for your next installment:nod Your patience is commendable and your study on the subject enlightening to those not bent on keeping to the lie!I too have done a lot of study on the subject(although nothing compared to you) I just wish I had your debating skills to go with it!You dont fancy coming round to my father in laws house and speaking to him ?l:lol hes a retired calvin minister :twitch


I have to agree with this -- you hung in there with debate long after I'd have thrown up my hands in frustration. Not only did you hang in there, but as mentioned, your debating skills were very good.

[CaiperLane]

I have to agree with this -- you hung in there with debate long after I'd have thrown up my hands in frustration. Not only did you hang in there, but as mentioned, your debating skills were very good.

Oh c'mon you guys....cut it out! :lol

I come from Jewish blood. we NEVER give up!!! :heh :B:

[Deb]

OK, this is off topic (its end times stuff), but if interested this is really good (by Dave Hunt - since we brought him up):

Israel, Islam and Armageddon
(you can watch all 6 parts)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OoQqr6Baqt8&mode=related&search=



Actually, I just post all 6 over at End Times Chat

[CaiperLane]

I LOVE end tiimes stuff!! It's like we've walked into a movie...

Anyone ever seen Purple Rose of Cairo or Pleasantville?????

This is what living in the end times feels like...I already read the book and now on to the motion picture....

[Deb]

I LOVE end tiimes stuff!! It's like we've walked into a movie...

Anyone ever seen Purple Rose of Cairo or Pleasantville?????

This is what living in the end times feels like...I already read the book and now on to the motion picture....


Well, EXACTLY!!! Except it's like The Neverending Story where we are actually IN the book and playing our part. It's a spine-tingling story that is real and we are IN. It blows my mind. Anybody who thinks Christianity is dull is crazy! This is all so amazing.

OK, get this ... After my studies in Calvinism, I was a changed person ready for more. "What else didn't I know, God?" I had bought Dave Hunt's book "Jerusalem, A Cup of Trembling" at Word of Life that year. As I read it, I began having these on-line conversations with Muslims. So between 1999 and 2001, I was becoming steeped in understanding Islam and end times prophecy. GUESS WHAT DAY I WATCHED ISRAEL, ISLAM AND ARMAGEDDON??? September 10, 2001, around 11 P.M., and into the early morning of September 11, 2001. And we all know what unfolded that day.

Talk about surreal. Talk about feeling like you're living in a book. It still weirds me out.

I was doing tons of talking to my (then) pre-teens. So Bush gets on the TV and says all he has to say, including that Islam is a religion of peace! My kids looked at one another incredulously, and then at me ... "UM, no it's not!!!" All that I learned between 1999-2001 about all of that suddenly came into focus, and I was so thankful not to be totally ignorant, which I would have been a few short years before.

Anyhow, this is all off topic, but I just had to mention it. We ARE in a book! AND we're living it! And it is The Neverending Story, for it shall never end. His Word will last forever and ever. Amen.

[CaiperLane]

Well, EXACTLY!!! Except it's like The Neverending Story where we are actually IN the book and playing our part. It's a spine-tingling story that is real and we are IN. It blows my mind. Anybody who thinks Christianity is dull is crazy! This is all so amazing.

OK, get this ... After my studies in Calvinism, I was a changed person ready for more. "What else didn't I know, God?" I had bought Dave Hunt's book "Jerusalem, A Cup of Trembling" at Word of Life that year. As I read it, I began having these on-line conversations with Muslims. So between 1999 and 2001, I was becoming steeped in understanding Islam and end times prophecy. GUESS WHAT DAY I WATCHED ISRAEL, ISLAM AND ARMAGEDDON??? September 10, 2001, around 11 P.M., and into the early morning of September 11, 2001. And we all know what unfolded that day.

Talk about surreal. Talk about feeling like you're living in a book. It still weirds me out.

I was doing tons of talking to my (then) pre-teens. So Bush gets on the TV and says all he has to say, including that Islam is a religion of peace! My kids looked at one another incredulously, and then at me ... "UM, no it's not!!!" All that I learned between 1999-2001 about all of that suddenly came into focus, and I was so thankful not to be totally ignorant, which I would have been a few short years before.

Anyhow, this is all off topic, but I just had to mention it. We ARE in a book! AND we're living it! And it is The Neverending Story, for it shall never end. His Word will last forever and ever. Amen.

:nod

[JIM]

Deb,
Yow wrote:My scholarship is grossly lacking also, because I understand things in scripture much differantly than Calvinists do. And most Calvinists are very, very scholarly, so therefore it must be that we are wrong. Or perhaps I do understand, and just won't do the scriptural acrobats.

No where did I ever intimate that you scholarship was lacking or those who may disagree with the calvinist position that their scholarship was lacking. I stand by what I said in my last post. If someone who says that they have NEVER read the reformers and who DOESN'T understand the original languages can all of a sudden come up with a book stating what the reformers positions were then I have to question their scholarship, as well as their integrity for that matter.
Also in regard to the the statement of scriptural acrobatics calvinists do nothing of the sort. We define scripture BY scripture and look at the context of a particular subject.

You wrote:JW never could explain away the Levitical Sacrafice to mine nor many other's satisfaction.

What is there to explain away? The levitical sacrifice system was a system that was a foreshadowing of the sacrifice of Christ. It's intention was never to save and as Hebrews says noone was saved by it since it is impossible to take away sin by the blood of animal sacrifices. Also who was the intended Levitical sacrifice for??? It was for God's people NOT every person in the world. Even that sacrifice was specific for who it was intended.
You may then ask if it was for God's people Israel then why were not all the Israelites saved? Again my answer would be the sacrifice never was intended to be a salvific one whereas the sacrifice of Christ was, and as the Levitical sacrifice was specific for the people of God so was Christ's.

Jim

[JoelH]

Oh c'mon you guys....cut it out! :lol

I come from Jewish blood. we NEVER give up!!! :heh :B:

This probably explains it. Jews from Messianic believers like Arnold Fruchtenbaum to Reformed types like Dennis Prager have all remarked on the natural-born lawyer attributes of the Jewish people :D: . Just a bit frustrating for Calvinists (who are similar in a sense of being intellectuals) that a group they see as being "finished in God's eye" can hang on without "becoming Christians" ("Christians" in the stained glass window or candles-lit types of churches sense - and messianic/dispensationalist don't count)

Keep on the struggle. :lol :D:

YBIC,

Joel

[Justsomeguy]

'Calvinism', or its equivalent, seems to have a 'problem' with seeing God as being 'outside of time'. That 'blindness' is what results in a 'no free will' view, IMO.

God sees the Ending the same as the Beginning. He is both places simultaneously. He knows how we will decide based on His call. His message to us (within time) demonstrates this. Those who 'hear' have 'ears'. We are those chosen.

We are 'elect' because we have already chosen (from God's point of view). We heard...

Seems very simple to me...

Sorry Hoot, gotta take issue with your post here...:lol

So God runs around our freewill?? Our freewill has ordained all of history then, and all of God's plan is an accomplishment of our free-will seen by God ahead of time?? I don't think so. History and all of time is seen by God from beginning to end at the same moment from his perspective, BECAUSE he ordained it. It is because I know God to be outside of time that I am a Calvinist. not because I ignore the fact. Either our "free will" was created by God to perfectly fulfill the plan he had in mind--or our "free will" submitted an infinite number of possible histories to God for his approval--one of which he chose. Either way there is no "free-will."

[Justsomeguy]

Well at least for me, I am eternally secure because God promised me I would be if I accepted His Son as my Savior.

But things like Heavenly rewards and letting my light shine for Jesus to bring the unsaved to a knowledge of the Good News encourages me NOT to sin and when I do to immediately repent.

I wonder where I got that idea? Must have been from the Bible.....

I wasn't chosen to be saved. I am loved by God because He said so. He loved me enough to die for me. So, what's a better way to thank Him for His sacrifice than to believe???

And it was YOUR reasoning that revealed that to you right? The words are the same for everyone, so why did you believe and another does not?

Faith is a gift not a free-will decision...

[Enlightenment]

So God runs around our freewill?? Our freewill has ordained all of history then, and all of God's plan is an accomplishment of our free-will seen by God ahead of time??

Nobody is saying that. Once again, the Calvinist is putting words in other people's mouths.

I don't think so. History and all of time is seen by God from beginn