Question about wheat and tares

[malory888]

Do you think that tares can become wheat? I dont. I posted these verses in another thread and started to think about them. I mean, does satan have his own children too? Here, read these and see what you think.

Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.


Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;


Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];


Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.


Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.


Here it says the tares are children of satan, he sowed them, and they will be burned in the fire. There is a strong principle in scripture about reaping what is sown. If you plant a tare, its gonna grow into a tare. If you plant wheat, thats what you get also.

Now, that makes sense to me and helps me reconcile that God has chosen or knows his own. That must be why it doesnt seem fair that God doesnt save everyone. He knows which ones are satans and we dont. mal

[Sincere]

No, tares will never be wheat, neither will goats be sheep. God has a people whom he has reserved to Himself -- a people from every tongue, nation, and tribe, which chosen by grace (Romans 11:5). The rest of the world are blinded by their own sin, Satan, and God. They are called of the Bible, "Children of Adam," "Children of the devil" "heirs of wrath," etc.

[malory888]

And heres something else I found while looking up "goats and sheep"

John 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.


Now there Jesus tells plainly why people wont believe. Its because they are not of his sheep.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd. Here Jesus calls them his sheep before they have even believed.

[Sincere]

And heres something else I found while looking up "goats and sheep"

John 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.


Now there Jesus tells plainly why people wont believe. Its because they are not of his sheep.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd. Here Jesus calls them his sheep before they have even believed.

That is exacly right. Did you notice that Jesus DID NOT say "You arent my sheep 'because' you dont believe." He said "you dont believe because you are not my sheep." God's sheep are God's people, chosen to the faith from before the foundation of the world.

[Shulamite]

And heres something else I found while looking up "goats and sheep"

John 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.


Now there Jesus tells plainly why people wont believe. Its because they are not of his sheep.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd. Here Jesus calls them his sheep before they have even believed.


Exactly, precisely! Yes!!! You are chosen in Him BEFORE the creation of the world. He chooses, He calls, He ordains and He alone draws and makes you for Himself.

[Shulamite]

That is exacly right. Did you notice that Jesus DID NOT say "You arent my sheep 'because' you dont believe." He said "you dont believe because you are not my sheep." God's sheep are God's people, chosen to the faith from before the foundation of the world.

Amen, Sincere. 100% agreed here! Always have agreed that we are chosen by Him, not the other way around. He alone gets the glory then!

[lisa]

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd. Here Jesus calls them his sheep before they have even believed.

Not to get completely off-topic, but who are the "other sheep" Jesus is referring to? Does he mean Gentiles? Does he mean believers elsewhere in the world or elsewhere in time?

[sracer]

Exactly, precisely! Yes!!! You are chosen in Him BEFORE the creation of the world. He chooses, He calls, He ordains and He alone draws and makes you for Himself.
IMO, that position goes too far. It eliminates the role of man's free-will.

How do you reconcile your view with:

(NKJV, 2Pe 3:9), "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

[Big Daddy]

I heard that there is a plant that grows with wheat that while as a young shoot, looks like wheat. It is only as the field matures, that the "tare" matures into a different color and can be seen among the wheat.

In the end, tares will always be tares, and won't change into wheat.
We may not be able to tell the difference while it is growing, but God can tell what is good wheat and what are tares from before they are sown.

This is also why a Christian is not to judge, as we can not tell the tares from the wheat.

[scrappergirl]

bumping bc this topic interests me, although at this juncture i have nothing to add...

well, maybe this:
How does all of this fit with Romans 9:21?

[Sincere]

IMO, that position goes too far. It eliminates the role of man's free-will.

How do you reconcile your view with:

(NKJV, 2Pe 3:9), "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."


I reconcile with like this: Who is the "us" talking about in v9? Verse 8 tells us - it is the "beloved." Verse 1 tells us that "this is now the 2nd letter to the "beloved" (whomever they are), which means the answer to our question "who is the beloved?" will be found in the first letter, namey 1Peter. Turn to 1Peter 1:1 and we read..."To those who are elect exiles." If that wasnt enough, you can look at the words in the Greek. I paste the scripture from my esword Bible program:

The3588 Lord2962 is not slack1019, 3756 concerning his promise,1860 as5613 some men5100 count2233 slackness;1022 but235 is longsuffering3114 to1519 us-ward,2248 not3361 willing1014 that any5100 should perish,622 but235 that all3956 should come5562 to1519 repentance.3341

Notice the bold words. Also notice the words in red, they are the same words in the Greek. The words "some men" and "any" are translated "tis" in the Greek and they mean: A certain one or certain ones. Therefore, it would be just as accurate to translate the verse as thus: "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise as "certain ones" (some men - tis) count slackness; but is longsuffering us-ward (beloved), not willing that "certain ones" (any - tis) should perish..." Do you see that? Now for the word "all." The word "all" in the Greek is the word "pas." Here are the meanings: 1) individually each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,everything 2) collectively 2a) some of all types. Reading 2Peter 3:9 in context, we see clearly that the correct understanding of the word "all" or "pas" is clearly "some of all types." Naturally, people are too much of God haters and lovers of sin to make a choice for God. God must first change our nature and make us born agian, before we can even see, love, or make a choice for God.

[AnyDayNow]

Do you think that tares can become wheat? I dont. I posted these verses in another thread and started to think about them. I mean, does satan have his own children too? Here, read these and see what you think...

The wheat and the tares in Matthew 13 was a kingdom of heaven parable. The kingdom of heaven is a term used by Matthew only to refer to the last Jewish age (this current age) which will end when Israel recognizes their Messiah, at Jesus' Second Coming to the earth. It is meant to refer to that time when heaven will retain Jesus.

You gave the passages where Jesus explains the parable. Later in the chapter, He tells when they are "harvested":

Matthew 13:40 "Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 "and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The harvest is at the end of the age, and the gatherers are angels. The tares are the unbelieving. The wheat are Believers. The tare is something which physically resembles wheat, but isn't. Care has to be taken in distinguishing it from the real wheat or it will be harvested along with the wheat. IMO, the wheat/tares are Jews. Later on in the chapter, Jesus also describes a separation judgment for gentiles:

47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering {fish} of every kind; 48 and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good {fish} into containers, but the bad they threw away. 49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

In the Bible, the gentiles nations are called the sea. There is no physical similarity (of every kind). Here in Jesus' parable, the fish are good/bad gentiles. Like the wheat/tares, this "harvesting" or separation judgment takes place at the end of the age. And again, the separators are angels. When is the "end of the age"?

Matthew 24:3. As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what {will be} the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

Jesus answered these questions for the disciples. Later in that chapter, after relating the end of the age to the 70th week/tribulation period, Jesus explained how these separation judgments will work at the end of the age/tribulation period:

Matthew 24:40 "Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 "Two women {will be} grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.

The "taken" here means physical death, just as it did for those in the flood (verse 39). Thus, trying to change tares into wheat is never an issue. The statements made in Matthew 13 relate to what Jesus said in Matthew 24. Both were about the end of the kingdom of heaven age when a separation judgment of both living Jews (wheat and tares) and living gentiles (dragnet - good/bad fish) will take place. It's not an ongoing thing, just a "snapshot" of that point in time when Jesus has come back and is ready to start His Kingdom on earth.

[Shulamite]

IMO, that position goes too far. It eliminates the role of man's free-will.

How do you reconcile your view with:

(NKJV, 2Pe 3:9), "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

Ephesians 1:4..."He chose us in Him BEFORE the foundation of the world..."

John 15:16...Jesus said, "You did not choose Me, I chose you..."

John 6:44... "No one can come to Me, unless the Father draws him..."

I humbly answer that I did not formulate my own opinion, the scriptures have spoken for themselves. I simply received them and feel that's what His Spirit has shown my heart.

Jesus is the Author if my faith. If He is the AUTHOR, then that means I am not. I cannot author my own faith in Him. He has to.
((Hebrews 12:2))
What may appear as my own "free will" was actually a RESPONSE from my heart to already being drawn to Him by the Father. My "choice" is actually a "response" to His work in me and His authoring my faith in Him...

Blessings.

[sracer]

Ephesians 1:4..."He chose us in Him BEFORE the foundation of the world..."

John 15:16...Jesus said, "You did not choose Me, I chose you..."

John 6:44... "No one can come to Me, unless the Father draws him..."

I humbly answer that I did not formulate my own opinion, the scriptures have spoken for themselves. I simply received them and feel that's what His Spirit has shown my heart.

Jesus is the Author if my faith. If He is the AUTHOR, then that means I am not. I cannot author my own faith in Him. He has to.
((Hebrews 12:2))
What may appear as my own "free will" was actually a RESPONSE from my heart to already being drawn to Him by the Father. My "choice" is actually a "response" to His work in me and His authoring my faith in Him...

Blessings.
So you have no say in the matter? If God has chosen you, you cannot resist? Man does not have free will with regard to salvation?

Where does the "Great Commission" fit into this? If who will and will not be saved has already been decided and man really has no "free will", why evangelize? Why go on mission trips? Why didn't the Lord simply "will" Adam not to sin?

[Sincere]

So you have no say in the matter? If God has chosen you, you cannot resist? Man does not have free will with regard to salvation?

Where does the "Great Commission" fit into this? If who will and will not be saved has already been decided and man really has no "free will", why evangelize? Why go on mission trips? Why didn't the Lord simply "will" Adam not to sin?

Thats right. Salvation isnt up to man. If it werent for God choosing some, NONE would choose God. We're too much in love with ourselves and sins's plesures to choose to deny self and follow Christ. God covicts us of sin for us to see our need for salvation, and by his graces were are born again. Grace comes frist, then faith. The great commossion fits into this because God has a people reserved for himself, a people from every nation, tongue and tribe, that needs to hear the message that will bring them to the faith, namely the gospel. How will they believe upon him whom they have never heard and how will they hear unless we go and preach? God uses means and ends and the "means" by which his elect will come to the faith is by "the preaching of the gospel." To the Jews it is a stumbling block and to the Greeks it is foolish, but to those called, from both the Jews and Greek, Christ is the power of God unto salvation" (1Cor 1:23-24)

[Shulamite]

I can only tell you what scripture says and how the Lord has shown my heart what it sees. That's all I can say.

There are plenty of things we see in the Lord's dealings with us and others that we have to leave in His hands. If something is not entirely "seen" or "comprehended" right now, it's because His ways are not our ways and are higher than the heavens. He's God. We are not.

I stick to the scripture. They pierce my heart very deeply and I believe them. It does not absolve me of my responsibility to tell others about Jesus and to be His witness. Jesus came and was a witness of the Truth regardless of who came to Him and who did not. He loved the Father and came, regardless of the response. Out of our love for Jesus, we go and tell others because He told us to. I love Him, so I go anyway.

Here's one final thought, again, I say this with a humble spirit:
Imagine with me for a moment there is a man that is blind. He's blind from birth. Nothing that he does will heal him of his blindness. He cannot "wish" himself to see, he cannot "do it himself"... how can a man born physically blind choose to make himself see?
Now think on this: If a man is born dead in sin, born blind to God, how can he/she make themselves see spiritual things apart from the Spirit making them alive, drawing them and making them a new creature in Christ? The old has passed the new has to come!
Jesus healed the blind man's physical blindness. He's giving us a spiritual example and truth here. Jesus alone can draw, choose and make someone see spiritually.

Again, I subject this with humility based on what I feel He's shown me.
blessings.

[sracer]

Thats right. Salvation isnt up to man. If it werent for God choosing some, NONE would choose God. We're too much in love with ourselves and sins's plesures to choose to deny self and follow Christ. God covicts us of sin for us to see our need for salvation, and by his graces were are born again. Grace comes frist, then faith.
I didn't say that salvation was up to man. It is only by God's Holy Spirit touching hearts that brings a man or woman to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. But to say that man has absolutely no part to play goes too far. The hardcore Calvinist position that you and Shulamite are taking completely removes man's responsibility for making a decision about Jesus.

And you have not addressed the issue of the "Great Commission". Why share the Gospel if God has already chosen all who would accept Jesus? Nor why God allowed Adam to sin.

[Sincere]

I didn't say that salvation was up to man. It is only by God's Holy Spirit touching hearts that brings a man or woman to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. But to say that man has absolutely no part to play goes too far. The hardcore Calvinist position that you and Shulamite are taking completely removes man's responsibility for making a decision about Jesus.

And you have not addressed the issue of the "Great Commission". Why share the Gospel if God has already chosen all who would accept Jesus? Nor why God allowed Adam to sin.


I didnt see the great commission question and so I went back to edit. Here's what I wrote:


Thats right. Salvation isnt up to man. If it werent for God choosing some, NONE would choose God. We're too much in love with ourselves and sins's plesures to choose to deny self and follow Christ. God covicts us of sin for us to see our need for salvation, and by his graces were are born again. Grace comes frist, then faith. The great commossion fits into this because God has a people reserved for himself, a people from every nation, tongue and tribe, that needs to hear the message that will bring them to the faith, namely the gospel. How will they believe upon him whom they have never heard and how will they hear unless we go and preach? God uses means and ends and the "means" by which his elect will come to the faith is by "the preaching of the gospel." To the Jews it is a stumbling block and to the Greeks it is foolish, but to those called, from both the Jews and Greek, Christ is the power of God unto salvation" (1Cor 1:23-24)

God allowed the fall of men to be Glorified in his grace.

[Shulamite]

Jeremiah 13:23
Can the Ethiopian change his skin? Or the leopard it's spots? Then how can you do good who are accustomed (born) evil, (dead)?

I do not call myself, "Calvinist" or by any other "man-made" title. I am quoting from Jesus Himself, not Calvin.

According to Jeremiah, he saw that 'man' can no more change his spirit to seek after God anymore than a leopard can change his spots or a person change his skin.

I give all glory to Jesus for saving me. He alone gets the credit. This is not "calvinist", it's Jesus' own words.

"You did NOT choose Me, I chose you."

[sracer]

So according to "Unconditional Election" a person who rejects Jesus and spends their eternity in Hell is not responsible for that because God did not choose them. oh well, too bad for them.

[Sincere]

I have to agree with C.H. Spurgeon on this matter. Calvinism is only a nickname for the gospel. A natual man cannot change his own nature. He cannot love God and follow God because he WILL NOT love and follow God. The natural man is incline to sin and make choices based on his own will. It is ONLY until we have had our nature changed and is born again, do we freely choose to love and live for God. If God doesnt change our nature, we remain haters of God and lovers of sin by our own free will.

[Sincere]

So according to "Unconditional Election" a person who rejects Jesus and spends their eternity in Hell is not responsible for that because God did not choose them. oh well, too bad for them.

Sinners go to hell because they love sin and hate God. God may choose to save a person or he may not. God sends no one to Hell that wants Jesus. Jesus said, "anyone who comes to me will in no way be cast out." Sinner, do you want the Savior? I assure you, he wants you more. Whoever believes in Christ will live!

[Shulamite]

If I quote directly from the scripture, using Jesus' own words, or quote from Paul, who was inspired by the Spirit, it's called "calvinism".

Just an interesting observation I've made.

I was born in sin. I had a dead spirit. Only Jesus could create in me a new spirit and heart to seek after Him. He alone inspires the soul to seek after Him.
Again, if I were born physically blind, how could I inspire or use my free will to enable myself to see again physically? I can't.

John 15:5...."You are not able to do anything apart from Me."
(This includes seek after Him too! He has to draw first. The Father must draw an individual otherwise they won't come)

That way, He gets ALL the glory.

[sracer]

Sinners go to hell because they love sin and hate God. God may choose to save a person or he may not. God sends no one to Hell that wants Jesus. Jesus said, "anyone who comes to me will in no way be cast out." Sinner, do you want the Savior? I assure you, he wants you more. Whoever believes in Christ will live!
But you said that God has already chosen those who would accept Jesus. You said that man has no choice in the matter. So according to that belief, it isn't an unbelieving man who sent himself to Hell, it was God. That unbelieving man had no choice. (at least according to that line of thinking)

[Hootmon]

Good post, ADN.

[HeIsEnough]

God sends no one to Hell that wants Jesus. Jesus said, "anyone who comes to me will in no way be cast out." Sinner, do you want the Savior? I assure you, he wants you more. Whoever believes in Christ will live!

This does sound very unCalvinistic Sincere. Might want to change that wording...

[Sincere]

If I quote directly from the scripture, using Jesus' own words, or quote from Paul, who was inspired by the Spirit, it's called "calvinism".

Just an interesting observation I've made.

I was born in sin. I had a dead spirit. Only Jesus could create in me a new spirit and heart to seek after Him. He alone inspires the soul to seek after Him.
Again, if I were born physically blind, how could I inspire or use my free will to enable myself to see again physically? I can't.

John 15:5...."You are not able to do anything apart from Me."
(This includes seek after Him too! He has to draw first. The Father must draw an individual otherwise they won't come)

That way, He gets ALL the glory.


Amen. May God get the ALL the Glory, because he deserves it all - He has done it all. He is the author and finisher of our faith. We work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Phi 2:12), because God is both to will and to work in us for his own good pleasure (Phi 2:13). Therefore, Christian, I leave you with words that has sparked passion within my own soul:

"Be fully satisfied in God that He may be fully glorified in you, whereby He gets the glory and you the joy, which is the best of both worlds" - John Piper

Living to God's glory and seeking to maximize your joy isnt two seperate things, but one. You were made for God's glory and His glory is bound up in the full enjoyment for all of His people. If you are in Christ, aim HARD at pleasing Him and keeping His commandments that His joy may be in you and you may be full. This, after all, is eternal life - that you may KNOW the one true and living God and Jesus Christ, whom he has sent into the world.

[Sincere]

But you said that God has already chosen those who would accept Jesus. You said that man has no choice in the matter. So according to that belief, it isn't an unbelieving man who sent himself to Hell, it was God. That unbelieving man had no choice. (at least according to that line of thinking)

Yes, God does choose who will believe, but not who will not believe. All peoples love sin and hate God. Hence, God is pleased to have an "unconditional election." He takes from the same lump of wicked and depraved sinners, some to save to the glory of His grace, and leaves the rest to their free will choice in hating Him and loving sin, and then punishes them to the glory of His Justice. "The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble." - Proverb 16:4

[Sincere]

This does sound very unCalvinistic Sincere. Might want to change that wording...

Actually, it isnt. Calvinsim does not teach that there will be people whom love God and desire Christ that will go to hell because they werent part of the elect, nor does it teach that sinners will be kicking and screaming that God has chosen them for Heaven. Calvinsm...excuse me, the gospel, teaches that if you repent and trust in Jesus, you will be saved. Who repents and believes? Now, that is the question.

[Hootmon]

Who repents and believes? Now, that is the question.You will need to define what you mean by 'repent' and 'believe' before that question is answerable.

Are they something that God 'does to you', or do you participate in them?

[Sincere]

You will need to define what you mean by 'repent' and 'believe' before that question is answerable.

Are they something that God 'does to you', or do you participate in them?

Nice avatar. Is that you? As for your questions. Yes, repentence and faith are gifts of God, but is nonetheless something that we take part in. For God's people will offer themselves freely in the day of God's power (Psa 110:3). God takes a natural man - that is to say a wicked and God hating human being - and changes his nature. He gives him spiritural eyes, a heart willing to believe and trust in Christ, a heart willing and able to keep God's commandments, etc. God also puts his spirit in us which causes us to revare and fear Him in order that we may never leave Him. ALL of what I said is what is entailed in the regeneration process (born again) and is the reason why we are "new creations in Christ." So what is repetence and faith? Repentence is the changing of ones mind and life to conform to God's ways and not your own. As for faith? Faith is trusting in Christ alone, inasmuch as you look at all the good you've done apart from Christ and begin to weap and ask for God's forgiveness. Faith is a trust in Christ alone that you will have because it is ONLY by His perfect life and obedience to God's laws, and His perfect sacrificial death and his resurrection, that you can be saved. That's faith, in a nut shell.

[AnyDayNow]

Nice avatar. Is that you?...repentence and faith are gifts of God...

You again? Are you going to turn every thread into a vehicle for your 5 point Calvinistic musings? Repentance is not a gift, it's done...by men and women...of their FREE choice. Without it there is no Salvation, and thus no faith.

Oh, and BTW, limited atonement is a human theological construct, completely devoid of Scriptural support, and thus not part of the Gospel. :B:

[sracer]

Actually, it isnt. Calvinsim does not teach that there will be people whom love God and desire Christ that will go to hell because they werent part of the elect, nor does it teach that sinners will be kicking and screaming that God has chosen them for Heaven. Calvinsm...excuse me, the gospel, teaches that if you repent and trust in Jesus, you will be saved. Who repents and believes? Now, that is the question.
You have repeatedly said that man has no choice... the choice is God's. According to those Calvinistic beliefs, those who repent and believe are only those who have been chosen by God.

[Sincere]

You again? Are you going to turn every thread into a vehicle for your 5 point Calvinistic musings?

I only answer questions and comments with what God has been pleased to show me from his word.

Repentance is not a gift, it's done...by men and women...of their FREE choice. Without it there is no Salvation, and thus no faith.

I read from scripture "When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, 'Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.'" - Acts 11:18

Oh, and BTW, limited atonement is a human theological construct, completely devoid of Scriptural support, and thus not part of the Gospel. :B:

Again, I read from scripture that Christ' death actually saves people..."You will call his name Jesus because he will save his people from their sins." Moreover, I read that Christ drained the cup of God's wrath inasmuch as he has become the propetiatiion for our sins and not just us, but the sins of the WHOLE WORLD! Now question: Since Christ paid for all sin, why are there people in Hell? You will answer faith - "they didnt believe" and so you will be right! But again, Christ paid for ALL sins, which includes our unbelief. Therefore, I again ask, why are there people in Hell. Where is God's justice? Does he require a double payment - first from Christ who paid the sins of the world and then from the sinner again? No, my friend. The just God of the universe will always do what is right. Either Christ has paid your fine or you will. There will be no sacrifice for some people, as it is written: "Therefore I swear to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli's house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever." 1Sam 3:14

[Hootmon]

Nice avatar. Is that you? Thems fightin' words! :boxing


Repentence is the changing of ones mind and life to conform to God's ways and not your own. I agree with that.


Faith is trusting in Christ alone, inasmuch as you look at all the good you've done apart from Christ and begin to weap and ask for God's forgiveness. Not so much...


Faith is a trust in Christ alone that you will have because it is ONLY by His perfect life and obedience to God's laws, and His perfect sacrificial death and his resurrection, that you can be saved.Trust is a good word.

Faith is trusting that the Promises will be kept based on your trust of the Promisor.

Does God make us trust Him? Or do we trust God because of who He is ans what He did?

[Sincere]

You have repeatedly said that man has no choice... the choice is God's. According to those Calvinistic beliefs, those who repent and believe are only those who have been chosen by God.

I said that man has no choice in his salvation. I read "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy" (Romans 9:16). Man has a free will, and I can show it to you. Its seen every time we sin. But thanks be to God, for when we were yet "DEAD IN SINS" God made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved (Eph 2:5). You will not understand what I'm saying until you first understood what you were apart from Christ. There was nothing ever good about you, nor have you ever done anything good apart from Christ. Like me, your whole life was sin and you loved it that way. Even if your life was hard and was bad, you would rather your way than God's way. Then, through hearing the gospel, you arose and was born again. Hence we read, "I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me" (John 10:14). Does hearing and believing make you a sheep, or do you believe because you ARE a sheep? What did our Lord say but, "but you do not believe because you are not my sheep" (John 10:26).

[AnyDayNow]

...Therefore, I again ask, why are there people in Hell...

Same reason everyone is in hell. Because they didn't repent.

[Sincere]

Thems fightin' words! :boxing


I agree with that.


Not so much...


Trust is a good word.

Faith is trusting that the Promises will be kept based on your trust of the Promisor.

Does God make us trust Him? Or do we trust God because of who He is ans what He did?


I guess I was being a little radical in some of my answers? Forgive me, Im a bit passionate about God's grace!!! In any case, here's the answer to your last question: When God changes our nature, he makes us willing against our unwillingness. In other words, the new nature that loves God, choose freely over the old nature that hates God. If God didnt do the work, we would have no new nature that desires God. Naturally, we hate God bro. We love Him because he first loved us. So all that said, it is not as though God forces us to love him. Rather, he frees us from our self-imposed slavery to sin and self and gives us a glimpse of the sweetness of God in Christ, and with that, we RUN to Christ and freely choose to live and serve Him. By the way, I was kiddin about the avatar...I just wanted to make you :D: . lol!

[Sincere]

Same reason everyone is in hell. Because they didn't repent.

Thats true. Repentence and faith are 2 sides of the same coin. No repentance, no Heaven. No trust in Christ. No Heaven. Why do some believe and repent? We read that some believe the gospel to be foolish and others a stumbling block, but to the called out ones, the gospel is the power of God unto salvation (1Cor 1:23-24). Also, and just in the hopes that this may make sense to you, we read..." And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed"(Acts 13:48)

[sracer]

I said that man has no choice in his salvation.
Yes, you said that. You said that it is God's choice and God's choice alone. One obtains salvation by repentance and believing. Therefore, it is God's choice and His choice alone who will repent and believe.... because if Tony (for example) could choose of his own free will to repent and believe, then he would be saved. That contradictions your "God alone" position.

In this chain of events for salvation, when you take the position "God and God alone chooses who will be saved", then God must have sole control at each step along the way otherwise it isn't "God alone".

[Hootmon]

In any case, here's the answer to your last question: When God changes our nature, he makes us willing against our unwillingness. Makes us? Or enables us?
Its an important distinction.


So all that said, it is not as though God forces us to love him. Rather, he frees us from our self-imposed slavery to sin and self and gives us a glimpse of the sweetness of God in Christ, and with that, we RUN to Christ and freely choose to live and serve Him.So there is a choice? Or is this the same as saying we are forced to love?

[Sincere]

Yes, you said that. You said that it is God's choice and God's choice alone. One obtains salvation by repentance and believing. Therefore, it is God's choice and His choice alone who will repent and believe.... because if Tony (for example) could choose of his own free will to repent and believe, then he would be saved. That contradictions your "God alone" position.

In this chain of events for salvation, when you take the position "God and God alone chooses who will be saved", then God must have sole control at each step along the way otherwise it isn't "God alone".

Again yes, I did say that salvation is of the Lord - It is his choice and His choice alone. I havent changed my answer, neither have I disagreed that thsoe who repent and trust in Christ are the ones saved. Why do you suppose that some God hating sinners make a decision for Christ? Moreover, where do you get this "free-willed" idea from? If God made left salvation for men whom hate God, cannot understand spiritual things like the gospel (1Cor 2:14), cannot keep God's laws to repent and come to Christ (Romans 8:7), who do not seek God (Romans 3:11) or fear Him that they may repent (Romans 3:18), and who are willing slaves to their sin (John 8:34) in order that they neither want to go against their nature or make the choice to go against their nature of sin, then NONE would be saved. By the way, salvation is ALL of God - its monergistic, rather than the Catholic "synergistic". Why do we work out our salvation with fear and trembling? Read the verse after that exhortation, it tells you.

[Sincere]

Makes us? Or enables us?
Its an important distinction.


So there is a choice? Or is this the same as saying we are forced to love?

True story: I would have said "enabled" but I didnt know how to spell it. Some times you just forget, you know?

[AnyDayNow]

True story: I would have said "enabled" but I didnt know how to spell it. Some times you just forget, you know?

Happens to the best of us. Ever since I became Calvminian, I've spelled Tulip T-U-P. :heh

[Hootmon]

I would have said "enabled"...So... What do you make of these two statements?

1) No one can come to God unless first enabled to do so by God.

2) Some of those enabled by God dont come to God.

[sracer]

Again yes, I did say that salvation is of the Lord - It is his choice and His choice alone. I havent changed my answer, neither have I disagreed that thsoe who repent and trust in Christ are the ones saved.
So do you agree or disagree that the logical extension of your position means that it is God and God alone that makes men repent and believe?

[Sincere]

So... What do you make of these two statements?

1) No one can come to God unless first enabled to do so by God.

2) Some of those enabled by God dont come to God.

I never like multiple choice test. I ususally get nervous and pick the wrong one. I'll say though, that #1 describes what I'm saying. As Jesus himself said, "No man can come to me unless the father first draw him." This, incidentally, should show you how much of a sinner you were. You would not have come to Christ unless the Father drew you. Why wouldnt you have come? You were an evil God hating sinner and loved it. Moreover, you hated anything that had to do with God, especially his command of "denying self and following after Christ."

[Sincere]

So do you agree or disagree that the logical extension of your position means that it is God and God alone that makes men repent and believe?

Yes and no. As Ralph Erskine (a guy that died a very long time ago) paradoxically put it, the man is saved "with full consent against his will;" that is, against his old will he is saved. But he is saved with full consent, for he is made willing in the day of God's power (Psa 110:3).

[malory888]

Phillipians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (I don't know if that includes repentance or not)

Here is another one in Phillipians 2:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

mal

[Hootmon]

I never like multiple choice test. I ususally get nervous and pick the wrong one. Its not a multiple choice test. Its two True or False questions.


I'll say though, that #1 describes what I'm saying. As Jesus himself said, "No man can come to me unless the father first draw him." This, incidentally, should show you how much of a sinner you were. You would not have come to Christ unless the Father drew you. Why wouldnt you have come? You were an evil God hating sinner and loved it. Moreover, you hated anything that had to do with God, especially his command of "denying self and following after Christ." I dont disagree with that assessment. The answer to question One is 'True'.

Now... How about question number Two? True or False?

[sracer]

Yes and no. As Ralph Erskine (a guy that died a very long time ago) paradoxically put it, the man is saved "with full consent against his will;" that is, against his old will he is saved. But he is saved with full consent, for he is made willing in the day of God's power (Psa 110:3).
Ah, you can't have it both ways. Either God and God alone has already decided who will be saved, or man has a choice in part of his salvation. If God is in complete control of one's salvation, and repentance and belief is a requirement for salvation, then God divinely forces that person to repent and believe and therefore be saved.

Saying that the man predestined to be saved gives "full consent" because God made him so that he would repent and believe is quite convoluted and contrived.... straining to show how that position "hangs together".

[Sincere]

Its not a multiple choice test. Its two True or False questions.


I dont disagree with that assessment. The answer to question One is 'True'.

Now... How about question number Two? True or False?

I was only kiddin. I kid a lot! As for the 2nd question, no one who God calls ever falls away. There are no drop outs from justification to glorificatiion. Note Romans 8:30. All who are called are justified and then glorified.

[Sincere]

Ah, you can't have it both ways. Either God and God alone has already decided who will be saved, or man has a choice in part of his salvation. If God is in complete control of one's salvation, and repentance and belief is a requirement for salvation, then God divinely forces that person to repent and believe and therefore be saved.

Saying that the man predestined to be saved gives "full consent" because God made him so that he would repent and believe is quite convoluted and contrived.... straining to show how that position "hangs together".

I think you have misunderstood what I have been saying all along, bro. God ALONE decides who will be saved (John 1:13). God does gifts of repentance and faith (Acts 11:18, Eph 2:8, etc.) I mean seriously, note Phillipians 2:29..."For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake." Where you err is by assuming that the man apart from Christ wants to be in Christ or even loves God. Study sin and man apart from Christ and then you'll be asking what anyone who has ever been saved ask, namely, "why me!?" What is man that he is mindful of us?

[Hootmon]

Note Romans 8:30. All who are called are justified and then glorified. If you are going to use that verse in defense, it is important to remember that 'foreknowledge' preceeds all of the following 'steps', including 'predestination'...

Then ask yourself: What is it that God forknew that caused Him to predestine?

[SetApart]

Yes and no. As Ralph Erskine (a guy that died a very long time ago) paradoxically put it, the man is saved "with full consent against his will;" that is, against his old will he is saved. But he is saved with full consent, for he is made willing in the day of God's power (Psa 110:3).

why would you need "full consent" if you were chosen? seems to contradict the calvinism theory...

[Sincere]

If you are going to use that verse in defense, it is important to remember that 'foreknowledge' preceeds all of the following 'steps', including 'predestination'...

Then ask yourself: What is it that God forknew that caused Him to predestine?

It surely wasnt faith. Free willers assume that when its not even there. God foreknew Christians the same way for knew Jesus in 1Peter 1:20, or Israel in Amos 3:2, etc. All of the scripture that deals with God's foreknowlege of people never deal with "what God foresaw" but instead "whom God foresaw" as in those he has an intimate relationship with.

[Sincere]

why would you need "full consent" if you were chosen? seems to contradict the calvinism theory...

God does need consent. He can either choose to harden your heart if he pleases (like in the case of those people in Romans 1 or Pharoah), or he can keep you from sinning (as in the case of King Abamalach in Gen). "Our God is in the Heavens and he does whatever he pleases" (Psa 115:3).

[Hootmon]

...but instead "whom God foresaw" as in those he has an intimate relationship with.I agree with that, but I think the forknowledge included the positive reaction of the called in the experiential sense, and that is the reason for the predestination.

Those who didnt respond were not 'forknown' in the experiential sense, and subsequently not predestined.

This makes the most sense of the 'God desires all to be saved' will of God, IMO.

[Sincere]

I agree with that, but I think the forknowledge included the positive reaction of the called in the experiential sense, and that is the reason for the predestination.

Those who didnt respond were not 'forknown' in the experiential sense, and subsequently not predestined.

This makes the most sense of the 'God desires all to be saved' will of God, IMO.


I see what you're saying. That's the crux of the issue, really: Is election based on God's Foreknowledge of people's faith or is it based on God's sovereign choice to choose one guilt sinner over another? I believe it is the latter; for scripture, in my opinion, is clear that we are born again by God's decision (John 1:13) and that Jesus only reveals the Father to those whom He chooses (Luke 10:22), or that He choose us, and not that we choose him.

[HeIsEnough]

That's the crux of the issue, really

It's merely one crux.

Please do expound on what it is you feel the Lord needs mans "consent" about...

[Sincere]

It's merely one crux.

Please do expound on what it is you feel the Lord needs mans "consent" about...

Hey, I'm truly sorry if I said anything that was offensive to you. God Bless you and you are right - He IS enough! I'm glad you know him and that he's saved you!!

[Hootmon]

...for scripture, in my opinion, is clear that we are born again by God's decision (John 1:13) Im sorry, but that isnt quite right...

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
(Joh 1:12-13)

Who did God give the right to again? To 'as many as received Him'...

The word translated as 'receive' (lambano) implies an active taking. A reaching out and a pulling in. It is definately not a merely passive acceptance.


...and that Jesus only reveals the Father to those whom He chooses (Luke 10:22), or that He choose us, and not that we choose him.I agree that the Son controls access to knowledge of the Father. However. that verse doesnt explain the basis for the choosing.

How does the Son choose?

[Sincere]

Hootmon

Im sorry, but that isnt quite right...

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
(Joh 1:12-13)

Who did God give the right to again? To 'as many as received Him'...

The word "recieve" insinuates that we get something, like a gift for example. So consider the whole thing again:

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Does that makes sense to you? Remmber, salvation is a free gift of grace that we recieve, "its not of works lest we can boast."


I agree that the Son controls access to knowledge of the Father. However. that verse doesnt explain the basis for the choosing.

How does the Son choose?

Eph 1:5..." according to the purpose of his will."

[Hootmon]

The word "recieve" insinuates that we get something, like a gift for example. Not so with the Greek word 'lambano'...
G2983
λαμβάνω
lambanō
Thayer Definition:
1) to take
1a) to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
1a1) to take up a thing to be carried
1a2) to take upon one’s self
1b) to take in order to carry away
1b1) without the notion of violence, i,e to remove, take away
1c) to take what is one’s own, to take to one’s self, to make one’s own
1c1) to claim, procure, for one’s self
1c1a) to associate with one’s self as companion, attendant
1c2) of that which when taken is not let go, to seize, to lay hold of, apprehend
1c3) to take by craft (our catch, used of hunters, fisherman, etc.), to circumvent one by fraud
1c4) to take to one’s self, lay hold upon, take possession of, i.e. to appropriate to one’s self
1c5) catch at, reach after, strive to obtain
1c6) to take a thing due, to collect, gather (tribute)
1d) to take
1d1) to admit, receive
1d2) to receive what is offered
1d3) not to refuse or reject
1d4) to receive a person, give him access to one’s self
1d4a) to regard any one’s power, rank, external circumstances, and on that account to do some injustice or neglect something
1e) to take, to choose, select
1f) to take beginning, to prove anything, to make a trial of, to experience
2) to receive (what is given), to gain, get, obtain, to get back
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a prolonged form of a primary verb, which is use only as an alternate in certain tenses
Citing in TDNT: 4:5, 495Like I said, its primary meanings are not passive...


Does that makes sense to you? Remmber, salvation is a free gift of grace that we recieve, "its not of works lest we can boast." The verse you quoted is talking about how we cant create the 'gift' on our own. Reaching out and taking the offered gift is not a work.


Eph 1:5..." according to the purpose of his will."That doesnt actually answer the question.
What 'purpose'?

[HeIsEnough]

Hey, I'm truly sorry if I said anything that was offensive to you. God Bless you and you are right - He IS enough! I'm glad you know him and that he's saved you!!

Oh its less about me brother, more about others.

Still, it is only one crux in relation to the tulip. There are others. Carry on!

[Sincere]

Not so with the Greek word 'lambano'...
Like I said, its primary meanings are not passive...


The verse you quoted is talking about how we cant create the 'gift' on our own. Reaching out and taking the offered gift is not a work.


That doesnt actually answer the question.
What 'purpose'?

I have e-sword too...I see its primary meaing:

1) to take
1a) to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
1a1) to take up a thing to be carried
1a2) to take upon one’s self

1 John 1:13 is talking about "all those who recieved him" or "all those who layed hold of him" are not born again of their own desires, not of their own will, but of God. The latter half of the verse explains the former. Because of God, they "take recieve him." This flows well with all of scripture in that Christ said "I have chosen you" and not that "you have chosen me" or that "all those whom were apointed to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48), or "all those who are called from both the Jews and Gentiles" believe the gospel (1Cor 1:23-24), etc. I think that much is clear. As for your other question..."what purpose?" Its his purpose in election, continue reading from v5 onward.

[Sincere]

Oh its less about me brother, more about others.

Still, it is only one crux in relation to the tulip. There are others. Carry on!


We can all learn a lesson in altruism from you. :thumb

[Hootmon]

I have e-sword too...I see its primary meaing:

1) to take
1a) to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
1a1) to take up a thing to be carried
1a2) to take upon one’s self

1 John 1:13 is talking about "all those who recieved him" or "all those who layed hold of him" are not born again of their own desires, not of their own will, but of God. The latter half of the verse explains the former. Because of God, they "take recieve him." This flows well with all of scripture in that Christ said "I have chosen you" and not that "you have chosen me" or that "all those whom were apointed to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48), or "all those who are called from both the Jews and Gentiles" believe the gospel (1Cor 1:23-24), etc. I think that much is clear. As for your other question..."what purpose?" Its his purpose in election, continue reading from v5 onward.Your answer is not clear to me. You seem to be obfuscating in order to support your view.

Maybe you could adress my post (or at least phrase your response) point-by-point. That way I would be able to respond...

[Hootmon]

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=299223

[malory888]

I see what you're saying. That's the crux of the issue, really: Is election based on God's Foreknowledge of people's faith or is it based on God's sovereign choice to choose one guilt sinner over another? I believe it is the latter;

I believe so too Sincere. ...because if it is the first option, that means God foresaw the people who would refuse to believe also - but they were created to live hear on Earth right along with those he foresaw would believe. That first option then ends up the same as the second one, because either way some will never believe. Mal

[Hootmon]

I believe so too Sincere. ...because if it is the first option, that means God foresaw the people who would refuse to believe also - but they were created to live hear on Earth right along with those he foresaw would believe. That first option then ends up the same as the second one, because either way some will never believe. MalHow is that any differnet form what you believe? :confused

[Hootmon]

...because if it is the first option, that means God foresaw the people who would refuse to believe also - but they were created to live hear on Earth right along with those he foresaw would believe. That first option then ends up the same as the second one, because either way some will never believe. MalHow is that any differnet form what you believe? :confused

What I mean is... How can even God cant know what someone will believe if they never exist in the first place. There is 'nothing there'...

Belief is 'experiential' in its most basic form. The timeline in which we live requires experience to have meaning. Those who never lived never experienced anything, certainly not belief. Certainly not 'unbelief'.