Renouncing Christ

[Jackson]

Hi Everyone. I apologize in advance for this dark post but I'm really upset to the point of almost being sick to my stomach. I just spent an hour reading the some of account of Sister Veronica Ortiz Hernandez, the US nun who was tortured in Guatemala, as well as the accounts of Bosnian torture victims.
(I just stumbled on to all of this on the Internet while researching a completely different topic.)
The reason I'm upset is because I have been consistantly conditioning myself to NEVER EVER RENOUNCING CHRIST, in the event that the time will come when we Christians are called to do so or be tortured/beheaded, etc. I have always felt I would be strong and resist. After reading these accounts, I'm frightened. Especially if I had to watch a loved one be tortured.
I know this is a horrible and ugly topic. I'm wondering if any of you have thoughts to share on this.

[SodoMojo]

Hi Jackson,
You are right- it is not a pleasant subject. I have not read any of the accounts you have mentioned. I have, however, read the accounts of the apostle Paul, who counted it as an honor to suffer for Jesus.
I believe if the Lord tarries much longer, that Christians here in this country will finally get a taste of what many Christians around the world have been suffering for two thousand years.
I was just asking Jesus last night to make me strong for Him if that time comes in my life. I believe He will give us the grace to get through whatever we need to. Until then, we need not be worrying about what we might go through, we just need to do our best to serve Him.
God bless you.
Cheryl

[Jackson]

I'm still thinking about this. This may sond like a stupid question, but what qualifies as "renouncing Christ?" I mean, if if we did it verbally, not meaning it, but to spare the torture of a loved one, God would surely know what was in our hearts. Would he give us a pass? I imagine we certainly wouldn't get a pass if we took the mark of the beast!!!
Also, will the mark of the beast scenario happen before or after the Rapture?

[Jackson]

Can anyone recommend any books by Christians who have been persecuted for defending their faith?

[Jackson]

Please disregard this thread. I see it's already been addressed in another thread. I'll respond to that. Sorry, I should have searched the threads prior to adding a new one.

[eaglex]

Foxe's Book of Matry's is good. sorry about the spelling.

[SodoMojo]

If we renounce Christ verbally, then those we are speaking to will have their satisfaction, and we will have hurt our Lord deeply. I'm too tired right now to come up with the bible verses that prove our condemnation should this be our choice.
There is a woman I used to listen to on the radio, I believe her name is Elizabeth Elliott, whose missionary husband was killed by natives in another country. I think it was in South America. You might gain some of the insight you are seeking from her.
The mark of the beast will be after the rapture of the church.

[HeIsEnough]

Can anyone recommend any books by Christians who have been persecuted for defending their faith?

Yes. The book to the Hebrews.


Hebrews 11

By Faith
1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.

3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. 4By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.

5By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

11By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he[a]considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

17By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."[c] 19Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.

20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.

21By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.

22By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones.

[B]23By faith Moses' parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king's edict.

24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter. 25He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. 26He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king's anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.

29By faith the people passed through the Red Sea[d] as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.

30By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.

31By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.[e]

32And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, 33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37They were stoned[f]; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.

39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

It may seem, as we read through these, merely words on paper. When you meditate upon what some went through, you will see that they kept the faith, even in and through torture and even death. Our faith is the assurance of what is to come, and it is in spite of what we are to go through to get there. Of course this does not even relate what the Apostles themselves went through, and the myriad of martyrs before us. Nor even Christ the Lord Himself, who suffered at the hands of unrighteous and evil men to gain many sons to glory (us)

The passage I made a little bigger speaks loudly to me. This world is not worthy of the great men of faith who the Lord loves dearly. Be of good cheer friend, the Lord loves you.

[ConservPride]

Hi Everyone. I apologize in advance for this dark post but I'm really upset to the point of almost being sick to my stomach. I just spent an hour reading the some of account of Sister Veronica Ortiz Hernandez, the US nun who was tortured in Guatemala, as well as the accounts of Bosnian torture victims.
(I just stumbled on to all of this on the Internet while researching a completely different topic.)
The reason I'm upset is because I have been consistantly conditioning myself to NEVER EVER RENOUNCING CHRIST, in the event that the time will come when we Christians are called to do so or be tortured/beheaded, etc. I have always felt I would be strong and resist. After reading these accounts, I'm frightened. Especially if I had to watch a loved one be tortured.
I know this is a horrible and ugly topic. I'm wondering if any of you have thoughts to share on this.

Jesus went through torture in front of His loved ones as well.

Mat 10:28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=10&verse=28&version=kjv#28)And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

As much as the enemy can torture and kill the body, they cannot destroy the soul. God has greater plans for us. Be planted in good soil and don't let tribulation offend you.

Mat 13:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=13&verse=20&version=kjv#20)But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mat 13:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=13&verse=21&version=kjv#21)Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Mat 13:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=13&verse=23&version=kjv#23)But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

[luvjc]

May I also recommend, "Foxe's Book of Martyrs"? It contains several accounts of Christians who were persecuted, tortured and executed for their faith. :):

[Diane 1611]

So is "Jesus Freaks" by dc talk. :):

[Serena A]

'Jesus Freaks' and Foxe's Book were both excellent.Another one that I read,and would recommend to Jackson was the story of Liu Zhenying in "The Heavenly Man".

[Jackson]

'Jesus Freaks' and Foxe's Book were both excellent.Another one that I read,and would recommend to Jackson was the story of Liu Zhenying in "The Heavenly Man".

Thank you so very much. I posted in another thread that my concern would be w/ having to potentially watch my loved ones be tortured. I'm not concerned about myself, as I know our psyhce has has an amaizing way of dealing w/ these things when they are happening to us.

[mikitta]

I have often considered this very same thing, Jackson. I have two young children and a spouse. If the gun were to my head, there is no doubt in my mind that I could stand for Christ and not even flinch. But could I stand for Christ if the bullet were aimed at my 7yo daughter? At my 9yo son? At my husband? I think only by God's grace could I so stand. The eventual torture would be having to watch them die for my testimony and then being "allowed" to live with the knowledge that my refusal to bend on the person, deity and office of Jesus resulted in their execution. If I knew I would follow them post haste in death, it would be an easier supposition to entertain than if I knew I would not be sumarily executed after they were.

Another thing for my consideration is that my husband, though he claimes to be Christian, really isn't a "religious" Chrisitian. That is, his connection with belief is tenuous and when questioned closely dosn't reveal a deep seated faith, rather a vague identification because of cultural similiarities with other white, anglo-saxon, middle income Americans who profess a passing belief in doing good to others and following the 10 commandments.

If/when we come to a point where our family is dragged before men who will demand a recanting of faith, what will my husband do? I've posed the question to him before because I think the day is coming and we may well see it. His answer has been non commital. There is no agreement in our marraige that if we should ever be faced with the ultimate test of faith we shall remain unified on this one thing - Christ and Him Crucified, Christ and Him Risen. My fear is that if/when this happens, he will recant and put pressure on me, then when I don't (and an agonized choice it will be), our children are executed and we left alive, and he will hate me and despise me.

But this one thing I do know. God's grace is sufficient for any test. God's grace is sufficient to enable the believer to withstand this ultimate test of faith - to remain faithful to our testimony even unto death, even unto the death of our family.

I sincerely pray that should God tarry, He will continue to bless our families with mercy, grace and protection. But for those precious ones that will have to face this test, I pray He will strenghthen them, give them peace and make them stand in the face of what is nearly unthinkable. We can only depend on Him to get us through something like that.

Just remember that Christ said those who confess His Name before men, those He will confess before His Father, Who is in heaven. I pray, should I ever face this trial, that I would have the strength and grace to confess Christ regaurdless of the cost in this world to myself or my family.

God Bless,
mik

[sandy111]

stand firm in the faith.

Jesus loves your loved ones more than you ever could.

[mikitta]

Absolutely, and He has given us a future and a hope :)

God Bless,
mik

[Leuretha]

I have often considered this very same thing, Jackson. I have two young children and a spouse. If the gun were to my head, there is no doubt in my mind that I could stand for Christ and not even flinch. But could I stand for Christ if the bullet were aimed at my 7yo daughter? At my 9yo son? At my husband? I think only by God's grace could I so stand. The eventual torture would be having to watch them die for my testimony and then being "allowed" to live with the knowledge that my refusal to bend on the person, deity and office of Jesus resulted in their execution. If I knew I would follow them post haste in death, it would be an easier supposition to entertain than if I knew I would not be sumarily executed after they were.

Another thing for my consideration is that my husband, though he claimes to be Christian, really isn't a "religious" Chrisitian. That is, his connection with belief is tenuous and when questioned closely dosn't reveal a deep seated faith, rather a vague identification because of cultural similiarities with other white, anglo-saxon, middle income Americans who profess a passing belief in doing good to others and following the 10 commandments.

If/when we come to a point where our family is dragged before men who will demand a recanting of faith, what will my husband do? I've posed the question to him before because I think the day is coming and we may well see it. His answer has been non commital. There is no agreement in our marraige that if we should ever be faced with the ultimate test of faith we shall remain unified on this one thing - Christ and Him Crucified, Christ and Him Risen. My fear is that if/when this happens, he will recant and put pressure on me, then when I don't (and an agonized choice it will be), our children are executed and we left alive, and he will hate me and despise me.

But this one thing I do know. God's grace is sufficient for any test. God's grace is sufficient to enable the believer to withstand this ultimate test of faith - to remain faithful to our testimony even unto death, even unto the death of our family.

I sincerely pray that should God tarry, He will continue to bless our families with mercy, grace and protection. But for those precious ones that will have to face this test, I pray He will strenghthen them, give them peace and make them stand in the face of what is nearly unthinkable. We can only depend on Him to get us through something like that.

Just remember that Christ said those who confess His Name before men, those He will confess before His Father, Who is in heaven. I pray, should I ever face this trial, that I would have the strength and grace to confess Christ regaurdless of the cost in this world to myself or my family.

God Bless,
mik

Amen