Salvation... whose choice is it?

[Crusader]

Do we chose God, or does God chose us?

First of all, if salvation is man's choice, what does he chose? Does man chose to obey God? Does he chose to serve God? Does he chose to believe in God? Exactly what choice is it that a man makes?

It is clear in the Bible that man is incapable of saving himself by obeying God's commands. Man is saved by faith and not works. Therefore we cannot chose to obey God or serve God. We must have faith first.

The other option then is, does faith come by choice? I think it rather ridiculous to say that faith comes by choice. You cannot chose to believe, you just believe. You cannot say, "I want to be a Christian, so I will believe what a Christian believes!". It is impossible. You believe first, and then you chose to obey. Faith is not a choice. Rather, by faith you make choices. Obedience comes from faith, and therefore any choices you make comes from your faith.

So how do you obtain faith? Ephesians 2:8-10 says it is a gift of God. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

Throughout the Bible God calls us to obey Him, and God calls us to believe in Him. But then says that we are dead in sin and blind to the truth, and incapable of coming to Him. So faith then does not come from us, but from above. We have no more power over our spiritual birth, being born again, then our physical birth. Faith is not a choice, and faith does not come from ourselves; faith is a gift of God.

WHOSE CHOICE IS IT? (http://www.dailybible.org/salvation/Whose_Choice_Is_It.html)

"The decision is yours...Now it is all up to you...God has done all He can to save, the rest is up to you...You must choose Christ for yourself...You must make the final decision." How often we have all heard statements like those from the pulpit. I want to raise a question regarding this matter of eternal salvation: WHO'S CHOICE IS IT? Our Lord Jesus Christ has answered the question very plainly: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you" (John 15:16).

Divine election is a very humbling, and at the same time it is a very encouraging and blessed doctrine of inspiration. It is humbling to know that we would never have chosen Christ. Our wants were so many, our hears were so hard, that we would never have sought the Lord. Yet, it is exceedingly comforting to hear our Savior say, "I have chosen you." Our Lord Jesus Christ loved us long before we ever loved Him. He loved us even when we were dead in sin. Had He not loved us, we would never have chosen Him.

Language could not be clearer. Our Savior tells us that man, by nature, will never choose Christ. It is true, in one sense, that every believer chooses Christ. This is the result, however, not the cause, of Christ's choosing Him.

The natural ear is so deaf that it cannot hear. The natural eye is so blind that it cannot see. The natural heart is so hard that it cannot feel. Man sees no beauty in Christ. He feels no need of Christ. He has no desire for Christ. Only after God the almighty grace opens the blind eye, unstops the deaf ear, quickens the dead heart, and gives strength to the withered hand is the sinner made willing to seek Christ and given the strength of faith to embrace Him.

This is what I am driving: ALL WHO BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IN TIME WERE CHOSEN BY GOD IN ETERNAL LOVE; AND THAT CHOICE OF THEM SECURES THEIR FAITH AND HOLINESS IN CHRIST.
continue... (http://www.dailybible.org/salvation/Whose_Choice_Is_It.html)

[CanuckMedic]

Divine election breeds laziness.

"welp, if it's not up to me anyways, I'm just gonna lay around and hope God picks me"

It's both. Without God's call(he calls everyone) we could not be saved. However we still must heed the call and obey.

There are scriptures supporting both election and free will, therefore both are valid. To say it's completely one way or the other ignores vast tracts of the Bible.

[cameron222]

Dead people can't make choices. We were dead in our sins before God found us. There has to be something happen first before a person can accept Jesus. They must first be born again. Then once born (spiritually) they make the automatic decision to follow Christ, as Christ now dwells in them.

You cannot birth yourself. That comes from Jesus. Neither can you just wake up one morning and decide that you will "try" Jesus.

There are those who follow the "philosophy" of Jesus and Christianity, but they do not know him. Perhaps these are the ones on the day of judgement who tell him they used His name to cast out demons and He tells them to depart from Him because he never knew them.

We used to use the term "being convicted by the Holy Spirit." That is an outside force that produces an inside change.


God chooses us and its very humbling to realize that. Just as God chose various people down through the ages to do a special work for Him. Just as God chose Israel and not Russia or France or Cuba to have a special (chosen) people and do a special work for Him.

If we can "believe" our way to salvation, then we can say that "we" saved ourselves by believing. But if its a gift from God, then we must accept the gift that was given without our solicitation.

NO ONE can come to me unless the Father Who sent me draws him (John 6:44).

[Crusader]

Faith is not a choice. Faith is something that happens. Your ears open and you can hear the truth, your eyes open and you can see the truth, and your heart softens and you accept the truth. The question is, how does that happen?

Divine election breeds laziness.

"welp, if it's not up to me anyways, I'm just gonna lay around and hope God picks me"

I don't think so. I think you are still operating under the assumption that man has a choice and can therefore be persuaded apart from the work of God. If you understand election, then when you preach the word of God you will understand that the response to your preaching is dependent upon God. Those that do respond will understand that it is because of the work of God. And those that do not respond will also understand that they do not believe because God is not working in their heart.

Think about it. If you preach and preach and preach to a friend of yours, and he doesn't respond, he will just get fed up with you. Both of you will be frustrated. You will ask, "Why can't I persuade him?" So you just keep at it until he wants nothing to do with you. But if you understand election, you will be patient and wait for God to do His work. Always proclaim Christ through words and deeds, but let God do His work in changing the heart.

It's both. Without God's call(he calls everyone) we could not be saved. However we still must heed the call and obey.

"Many are called, few chosen". It cannot be both. Either faith is from God or faith is from man.

There are scriptures supporting both election and free will, therefore both are valid. To say it's completely one way or the other ignores vast tracts of the Bible.

It is one or the other, you cannot have them both. Either God choses us, or we chose Him. If you say, "Well, God does some work, but ultimately man makes the choice", then you are still saying man choses God.

[carmen]

I don't feel it has to be one or the other. Both are clearly taught in the Bible, and while they may seem paradoxical to me, I believe that both are true and it is my ability to understand that is lacking. Just my opinion :):

[Robbinson]

Divine election breeds laziness.

"welp, if it's not up to me anyways, I'm just gonna lay around and hope God picks me"

It's both. Without God's call(he calls everyone) we could not be saved. However we still must heed the call and obey.

There are scriptures supporting both election and free will, therefore both are valid. To say it's completely one way or the other ignores vast tracts of the Bible.

Bingo - I agree with CanuckMedic.

It is true that we must be called to have faith: "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day John 6:44)

However, I believe that God, the Father, will draw each of us to Jesus, the Messiah - however, only those with an open heart and an open mind will be receptive enough to "open the door" for the Holy Spirit. Once opened, however, the Holy Spirit will do its work and the "choice" of salvation at that time will become inevitable. (Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. Revelation 3:20)

God forknew all of this because from the beginning of time (as we perceive it) He already knows who will open the door and who will not.

Regards

[LeahIA]

I didn't understand it until I read R.C. Sproul's "Chosen By God".

[Enlightenment]

Do we chose God, or does God chose us?

Both.

Does man chose to obey God?

No.

Does he chose to serve God?

No.

Does he chose to believe in God?

Yes, led by the Holy Spirit. Then obeying and serving God follows with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

Acts 16:
30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.
34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.

John 3:
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

[HeIsEnough]

Faith is not a choice. Faith is something that happens.

...

"Many are called, few chosen". It cannot be both. Either faith is from God or faith is from man.

...

It is one or the other, you cannot have them both.

This is where faith comes from friend.


Romans 10:17

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

The consequently, stems from this:


Romans 10:16

But not all the Israelites accepted the good news.

Why was that? Because they were:


Romans 10:21

21But concerning Israel he says,
"All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people."

Consequently:


Romans 11:10

10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever."

As Isaiah asks the Lord:


Romans 10:16

Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"

He answers the question


Romans 11:16

5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

The Apostle Paul does an amazing thing throughout these two chapters of Romans. He quotes no less then 8 different books of the OT, and 15 or so different chapters, to say that Israel was responsible for her own disobedience, after years of the Lord contending with her. Those who were chosen, were those who were not disobedient to the message. As we know, the Lord is not done with Israel, for the sake of the remnant. The same holds true for the Gentiles. I see no room here for destined for hell, I see obstinate people choosing to disobey. It takes the Lord to come down to man, because man could never do it for himself, hence it is by grace, not by works, which means we have no way to earn it, but we surely must obey and believe the message.

[Enlightenment]

The Apostle Paul does an amazing thing throughout these two chapters of Romans. He quotes no less then 8 different books of the OT, and 15 or so different chapters, to say that Israel was responsible for her own disobedience, after years of the Lord contending with her. Those who were chosen, were those who were not disobedient to the message. As we know, the Lord is not done with Israel, for the sake of the remnant. The same holds true for the Gentiles. I see no room here for destined for hell, I see obstinate people choosing to disobey. It takes the Lord to come down to man, because man could never do it for himself, hence it is by grace, not by works, which means we have no way to earn it, but we surely must obey and believe the message.

:nod Good post.

[bunnymom321]

I believe it is both as well. I also feel that God is bigger then time, He can see the past, present and future at once. So, He knew from the beginning of time who would chose Him and who would not. I beleive that at that point in time when He knows we are ready, He blesses us with the Holy Spirit.

This goes back to the question yesterday about being like a child. We may not understand all about this, but His Word tells us this is the way it is, so like children, we trust what our Father says is true, and we believe Him.

Just my two cents. ;):

[HouTex]

NO ONE can come to me unless the Father Who sent me draws him (John 6:44).


John 6:44-45

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

To me, in the context of verse 45, it sounds like everyone who "listens" comes...like God is speaking to each of us, but many harden their hearts and don't listen. I don't read it as God speaking only to the elect.

[Paul Danner]

Hello brothers and sisters
There have been many posts on this subject lately and they all seem to get alittle heated.
This is such a difficult subject because there are good verses on both sides however it does seem to me that being "chosen" does not mean that God said "I think I will look into the future and see who chooses me then I'll choose them back". This just does not make sense to me. Also I don't think election causes laziness. To me it brings an indescribeable joy that God chose me because it pleased Him to do so. Not because of anything I did or was going to do. It makes me want to serve Him so much more. I want to live every moment for Him. I love Him!! He is the only father I've ever had. He is a father to the fatherless and he CHOSE ME!! Thank you Jesus.

Please, my brothers on the other side of this debate. Know that I do not think of anyone any less or less of a Christian if you do not agree with me.

Its just the more I study His word and grow in my relationship with Him the more I believe in the sovereignty of God.

[cameron222]

I really don't understand all of the debate, unless its just so different than what we have been taught in church. If you are saved because God chose you, then rejoice!!! Don't get caught up in methodology taught by men.

Again, if we could "believe" our way to salvation, it would then be us who saved ourselves by "believing." Something has to happen before we can believe. Its called being born again in John chapter three. We cannot birth ourselves. Once we are born again of the spirit, a process over which we have no control, then we believe because we then have Christ in us.

It then is a relationship and not a "philosophy" that we try on for size.

Before we are born again we are dead to our sins and dead people can't make any decisions.

We don't find God; God finds us!!

[HeIsEnough]

:nod Good post.


Those who were chosen, were those who were not disobedient to the message.

:yo

[malory888]

I really don't understand all of the debate, unless its just so different than what we have been taught in church. If you are saved because God chose you, then rejoice!!! Don't get caught up in methodology taught by men.

Again, if we could "believe" our way to salvation, it would then be us who saved ourselves by "believing." Something has to happen before we can believe. Its called being born again in John chapter three. We cannot birth ourselves. Once we are born again of the spirit, a process over which we have no control, then we believe because we then have Christ in us.

It then is a relationship and not a "philosophy" that we try on for size.

Before we are born again we are dead to our sins and dead people can't make any decisions.

We don't find God; God finds us!!

:thumb good post cameron

[HeIsEnough]

Its just the more I study His word and grow in my relationship with Him the more I believe in the sovereignty of God.

All believers believe in the sovereignty of God. To say that mankind must respond (repent), does not inhibit nor undermine God's sovereignty. It's going to take you seeing beyond that to understand where I and others are coming from.

[HeIsEnough]

Again, if we could "believe" our way to salvation, it would then be us who saved ourselves by "believing." Something has to happen before we can believe. Its called being born again in John chapter three. We cannot birth ourselves. Once we are born again of the spirit, a process over which we have no control, then we believe because we then have Christ in us.

It then is a relationship and not a "philosophy" that we try on for size.

Before we are born again we are dead to our sins and dead people can't make any decisions.

We don't find God; God finds us!!

And yet God calls on all men to repent....

[Hootmon]

:nod Good post.Agreed

[CanuckMedic]

Like I said before, to say it's all up to us would ignore a large portion of the bible...Just like saying it's all up to God ignores the other half of the bible.

Without God's call none would be saved. God calls everyone. Some refuse(free will).

God created us to choose or not choose. He could've created cattle or robots but he didn't. He created man, who from the beginning(Adam) showed our stubborness and obstinance to God. Clearly if man had no free will we'd still be in Eden.