False Teaching vs Mistaken Teaching

[Paul]

This was originally brought up in a thread in Apolo but I thought I'd post it in here too.
......

Here’s a sampling of what the New Testament says about false teachers:

But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits…

Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.

"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

These verses tell us several things about false teachers:

- There will be false teachers among us
- They will appear to be godly, but are not
- They will secretly bring destructive teaching
- They will exploit people through deceptive words
- They promote doctrine that contradicts the teachings of Christ and the Apostles

Based on this I think we would describe a false teacher as one who knowingly leads people away from Christ for their own personal gain. An example of a false teacher would be someone who exploits for money, or who preaches a gospel contrary to the one of the Bible.

Now let’s contrast that with someone whose motives are pure but theology is mistaken.

Now a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John.

So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace; for he vigorously refuted the Jews publicly, showing from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ.

With the earlier Scripture we looked at in mind, would we label Apollos a false teacher? I don’t think we would. He knew the Scriptures, taught well, but his teaching was incomplete. Notice that while we’re told to avoid false teachers the Lord put Aquila and Priscilla in this Apollos’ life in order to correct his teaching.

A good teacher will lead a person towards a deeper relationship with Christ. A false teacher will lead a person away from Him. A good teacher may err, but it’s unintentional and he will accept correction.

Because false teachers are deceptive and hard to spot, and because all teachers occasionally make mistakes, it's very important to check all teaching against the Bible. We are to “test all things and hold fast to the good”. (1 Thes 5:21) This is pleasing to the Lord because it shows a desire to draw closer to Him, which is something He also desires. (Matt 11:28-29)

[SetApart]

This was originally brought up in a thread in Apolo but I thought I'd post it in here too.
......

Here’s a sampling of what the New Testament says about false teachers:









These verses tell us several things about false teachers:

- There will be false teachers among us
- They will appear to be godly, but are not
- They will secretly bring destructive teaching
- They will exploit people through deceptive words
- They promote doctrine that contradicts the teachings of Christ and the Apostles

Based on this I think we would describe a false teacher as one who knowingly leads people away from Christ for their own personal gain. An example of a false teacher would be someone who exploits for money, or who preaches a gospel contrary to the one of the Bible.

Now let’s contrast that with someone whose motives are pure but theology is mistaken.



With the earlier Scripture we looked at in mind, would we label Apollos a false teacher? I don’t think we would. He knew the Scriptures, taught well, but his teaching was incomplete. Notice that while we’re told to avoid false teachers the Lord put Aquila and Priscilla in this Apollos’ life in order to correct his teaching.

A good teacher will lead a person towards a deeper relationship with Christ. A false teacher will lead a person away from Him. A good teacher may err, but it’s unintentional and he will accept correction.

Because false teachers are deceptive and hard to spot, and because all teachers occasionally make mistakes, it's very important to check all teaching against the Bible. We are to “test all things and hold fast to the good”. (1 Thes 5:21) This is pleasing to the Lord because it shows a desire to draw closer to Him, which is something He also desires. (Matt 11:28-29)

thank you for sharing these scriptures...
motive is key here in determining a false teacher.......

so...when our new pastor (just hired for my church) point blank claims he supports the emergent church movement, then i should strongly suspect that he lines right up there with the false teachers??

i have read enough about the emergent church to gather that they use "contemporary" worship styles to reach our current culture (worldly/secular) and "re-examine" the biblical scriptures in a way that aren't necessarily the same truth as traditional christianity, bible-believing christians adhere to....

thoughts...would appreciate your feedback...

[HouTex]

*** FALSE TEACHER ALERT ***

IMO, Dr. John Shelby Spong (an Anglican bishop??) is a FASLE TEACHER and should be avoided. My opinion is based on his book: "Resurrection: Myth or Reality". While I haven't read it, based upon the reviews ( http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/B000GG4IU6/ref=cm_cr_dp_pt/002-1734427-2844022?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books )
it appears to deny the resurrection. As we know, this is not consistent with the gospel, and hence I believe Dr. Spong is a false teacher.

[Paul]

IMO, Dr. John Shelby Spong (an Anglican bishop??) is a FASLE TEACHER and should be avoided. My opinion is based on his book: "Resurrection: Myth or Reality". While I haven't read it, based upon the reviews ( http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/B000GG4IU6/ref=cm_cr_dp_pt/002-1734427-2844022?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books )
it appears to deny the resurrection. As we know, this is not consistent with the gospel, and hence I believe Dr. Spong is a false teacher.I would strongly suggest that you run, don't walk, away from Spong.

[Paul]

thank you for sharing these scriptures...
motive is key here in determining a false teacher.......

so...when our new pastor (just hired for my church) point blank claims he supports the emergent church movement, then i should strongly suspect that he lines right up there with the false teachers??

i have read enough about the emergent church to gather that they use "contemporary" worship styles to reach our current culture (worldly/secular) and "re-examine" the biblical scriptures in a way that aren't necessarily the same truth as traditional christianity, bible-believing christians adhere to....

thoughts...would appreciate your feedback...Again I would say that it's very important to check all teaching against the Bible. We are to “test all things and hold fast to the good”. (1 Thes 5:21)

Using "contemporary worship styles to reach our current culture" isn't a bad thing. Compromising what the Bible teaches is. So you have to see where his teaching stands and go from there.

[broken]

These verses tell us several things about false teachers:

- There will be false teachers among us
- They will appear to be godly, but are not
- They will secretly bring destructive teaching
- They will exploit people through deceptive words
- They promote doctrine that contradicts the teachings of Christ and the Apostles

Based on this I think we would describe a false teacher as one who knowingly leads people away from Christ for their own personal gain. An example of a false teacher would be someone who exploits for money, or who preaches a gospel contrary to the one of the Bible.

This is something that's been on my heart quite a bit lately.

There have been many threads posted that accuse others of being false teachers. According to the bible, a false teacher is one who denies the gospel of Jesus Christ for his/her own gain.

I believe that people need to be more careful of what they are accusing others of, since God's word warns us of this.

Matthew 5:22 - "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca', shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell."

[dramama]

This is something that's been on my heart quite a bit lately.

There have been many threads posted that accuse others of being false teachers. According to the bible, a false teacher is one who denies the gospel of Jesus Christ for his/her own gain.

I believe that people need to be more careful of what they are accusing others of, since God's word warns us of this.

Matthew 5:22 - "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca', shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell."


Which preachers are you referring to? I'm sure if they were referred to as false teachers proof of this would have been given.....if you are "mistaken" in your teaching you are still held up to a higher standard by God, and you cause others to stumble because you are wrong....


James 3:1
My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.


1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

2 Peter 2:1
[ Destructive Doctrines ] But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

Matthew 7:15
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

Matthew 24:11
Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many


2 Peter 2:3-5 (New King James Version)

3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

Doom of False Teachers

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;

2 Peter 2:12
[ Depravity of False Teachers ] But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,

2 Peter 2:17-19 (New King James Version)


17 These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

Deceptions of False Teachers

18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage

[Mea]

:thumb This is something that's been on my heart quite a bit lately.

There have been many threads posted that accuse others of being false teachers. According to the bible, a false teacher is one who denies the gospel of Jesus Christ for his/her own gain.

I believe that people need to be more careful of what they are accusing others of, since God's word warns us of this.

Matthew 5:22 - "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca', shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell."


Broken- awesome post! :clap

the example of Spong is also an excellant example of the 'fruits' of a false teacher.

God will take care of these kinds of pp~

[Timothy]

While a tangent, Matthew 5:22 serves as a demonstration of the need for one to examine the so-called "bible version debate" on their own, individually, at face value, without the clouds of smoke perpetuated by many of the extremists on both sides of the issue.

As show here in this thread, Matthew 5:22 was used as an indication of a danger or warning. Note closely what the verse says in two commonly used bible versions.

Matthew 5:22 NASB - But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca', shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Matthew 5:22 NIV - But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

The verse in those bible versions clearly says that anyone and everyone who is angry with his brother is guilty and subject to judgement.

And that particular verse from those bible versions is precisely where the false notion arises that it is a sin to be angry.

The notion is the result of a flawed piece of scripture. Nothing could be further from the case - anger or being angry is not a sin. Otherwise the Lord Jesus Christ himself is in danger of being "subject to judgement" for "he had looked round about on them with anger" in Mark 3:5, etc. Now note Matthew 5:22 in the King James (from the minority text) in contrast to the verse in the NIV and NASB (from the majority text).

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

The "without cause" phrase is pivotal, as anger is not a sin. The following is something that I wrote in a past thread:

Anger

The false belief that anger is a sin is quite easy to disprove scripturally. For example:

Pslams 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

God can be angry, and he is still righteous. So besides simply "false teaching," what is the source of this misconception? There are at least two possible reasons.

First, there is a common misconception about Christ, where some make him out to be "wimpy" and think that he never did anything "harsh." Christ harshly chastisted unbelief, hypocrites, false doctrine, etc. He also went into the temple and overthrew the money changer tables. He also demonstrated anger.

Matthew 21:12-13 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Mark 3:5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

Second, there is an issue with some modern Bible versions. According to the NIV, anger is a sin, and that anyone who is angry with a brother will be subject to judgement.

Matthew 5:22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

See the same verse in the King James, which has a totally different meaning. The phrase "without a cause" is missing from the NIV, hence the different meaning. It is "sad" to note that by placing the NIV Matthew 5:22 with Mark 3:5, the NIV implies that Christ sinned by being angry.

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

The Bible clearly shows that anger is not a sin. So what does the Bible say about anger?

Ephesians 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath

The next time you start to get angry, remember this verse. IT IS OK TO BE ANGRY! But don't let the sun go down upon your wrath. Instead of "bottling" it up and filling yourself with anger, the best thing you could do is let it out, gently. Tell a fellow brother in Christ why you are angry at something - they'll help you release the anger. Just telling someone will help. Better yet, if you are angry with someone, tell them! Approach them GENTLY and tell them that you are angry with them. Tell them that you don't want to be angry with them an hour from now because care for them, etc.

Now as far as "mistaken teaching," the book of Galatians serves as a prime example of biblically based identification and correction of teaching in error by saints, members of the body of Christ. The Galatians strayed in their teaching, and put themselves back under the bondage of the law and legalism. Paul, via the Holy Spirit, describes the Galatians as:

"so soon removed"
"bewitched"
"not obey the truth"
"foolish"

Correction can seem harsh, which is why Paul, via the Holy Spirit said "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?"

[CountryBumpkin]

So by using Matthew 5:22 as a warning that we are not to accuse certain false teachers of deception, is wrong.
God does not warn us that we are not to expose these false teachers.

[broken]

There have been many threads posted that accuse others of being false teachers. According to the bible, a false teacher is one who denies the gospel of Jesus Christ for his/her own gain.

The point of this thread is not about accusing false teachers. It is about falsely accusing teachers of being false, when they are simply differing in their teachings.
More often than not, scriptural proof is not given to back up what is claimed in the accusations. There are many people with teaching and mission-based ministries that have been accused of being "false teachers', here on this board, when in fact, these people have dedicated their lives to living and spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Matthew 5:22 was not posted to talk about anger, but about the danger of calling your brethren empty-headed and fools. Judging them, falsely. Which is the equivalent, IMHO, of calling them false teachers.
Just to clarify - I'm not speaking of people like Benny Hinn. His "ministry" is obviously quite selfish, which is pretty much, in my eyes, the same as denying the gospel. But still, I'm pretty sure he will stand before the one true Judge, and He will decide.

[Becky]

Broken, could you please give me an example where someone was accused of being a false teacher on this board that did not meet the criteria of a false teacher?

[broken]

Well, Becky, when I asked for scriptural proof in the "Continuing Revelation" thread, which accused John Wimber and [someone else?]- I received no answer. And when I asked for a list of Heidi Baker's "false prophecies", in the "latter rain" thread, I received no answer.

I'm just seeing a lot of "I don't like that teaching, so it is false." If people can give some scriptural evidence to back up their accusations, it's alot more effective, IMO.

If it can be shown that people like Kris Vallotton and Heidi and Rolland Baker and John Wimber are all in this to lead others astray, then let them be called false teachers.

[Becky]

Ok let's talk about it. :): I'm sure with the holidays over people will be able to post more. Sometimes people are gone on vacation and a thread gets forgotten.

Let's start with Kris Vallotton. Here is what he believes:
Kris Vallotton is a noted prophetic voice in Northern California, and has trained prophetic teams in this region. He is a sought after speaker with a vision for equipping an "Elijah generation" for the end-time harvest.

Both Kris and his wife Kathy have a vision to raise up a company of warriors to impact this generation for Christ. It is their goal to see the fulfillment of Isaiah 61 with their own eyes. This prophecy begins with individual people getting delivered and healed--it ends with the ruined cities being restored.

Kris says it is time for the fire of God to burn up His enemies and warm the hearts of the lost. This mandate has become their mission. God has instructed them to gather together warriors with like hearts, than train and equip them, and send them into the Harvest. Holy Spirit fortifications must be established in the midst of the darkest places of the planet earth.

Kris is currently Senior Associate Pastor at Bethel Church in Redding, California and Kris and his wife Kathy are Overseers at Bethel's School of Supernatural Ministry. They have four children and five grandchildren.

We can already see the mistakes in his teaching. It is a false teaching because Isaiah 61 is about Israel not the church. For example let's look at Isaiah 61:1-3:

1 The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me,
because the LORD has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners,

2 to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor (the Church Age)
and the day of vengeance of our God, (the Tribulation Period)
to comfort all who mourn,

3 and provide for those who grieve in Zion—
to bestow on them a crown of beauty
instead of ashes, (Convert Israel at End of Tribulation)
the oil of gladness
instead of mourning,
and a garment of praise
instead of a spirit of despair.
They will be called oaks of righteousness, (A Regenerated Nation during the 1000 year Millennium period)
a planting of the LORD
for the display of his splendor. (During the Millennium)

[broken]

Becky, I love you. But what you've shown is a mistaken teaching, (in opinion) but not proven that Vallotton is a false teacher.

As Paul wrote in his OP:
Based on this I think we would describe a false teacher as one who knowingly leads people away from Christ for their own personal gain. An example of a false teacher would be someone who exploits for money, or who preaches a gospel contrary to the one of the Bible.

Kris' heart for Jesus is huge. His ministry has produced very good fruits.
Matt 7:18 - "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit."

How can the Vallottons be called false teachers by the biblical standard?

[Becky]

I'm sure he has a heart for God but it's misplaced. He is proclaiming to be a prophet. These are his own words:

Kris says it is time for the fire of God to burn up His enemies and warm the hearts of the lost. This mandate has become their mission. God has instructed them to gather together warriors with like hearts, than train and equip them, and send them into the Harvest. Holy Spirit fortifications must be established in the midst of the darkest places of the planet earth.We are suppose to put on the whole armor of God anyway. This is nothing new. We are suppose to go out into the world and proclaim Christ. This is nothing new. There is no end time harvest. This occurs during the Tribulation. This is a dangerous teaching. When it does not come to pass there will be disheartened people looking for the Kingdom that didn't come because we are not yet through with the Church Age.

And I love you too. :becky

[broken]

Becky? What about this question: How can the Vallottons be called false teachers by the biblical standard?

In your answer, I'm still seeing opinion, that others can debate.

Interpretations of scripture that can be debated can not be used as evidence, right?

For example, what do you think of Charles Stanley? I believe that he is very solid, a man of God. Great teacher. But others have a different opinion. Check out this site:
http://www.atruechurch.info/stanley.html

Personally, I think they are very wrong in calling Stanley a false teacher. He is definately not knowingly leading others astray, nor is he self-serving.

Becky, do you consider Kris Vallotton your brother in Christ?

[Becky]

I can't call anyone a brother in Christ if I do not know him. What I do know is that he is teaching a false teaching. We are the Church, not Israel. That is a big no-no in the Bible. And I provided scriptural proof.

[broken]

I can't call anyone a brother in Christ if I do not know him.

Well, that's fair enough.:):

I think what you provided was interpretation opinion, not absolute proof. There are many people who would disagree with you, about the church/Israel separation. Matthew Henry's commentary on Isaiah 61:
http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?com=mhc&b=23&c=61
From the link:
Promises are here made to the Jews returned out of captivity, which extend to all those who, through grace, are delivered out of spiritual thraldom. An unholy soul is like a city that is broken down, and has no walls, like a house in ruins; but by the power of Christ's gospel and grace, it is fitted to be a habitation of God, through the Spirit.

But, regardless of how you interpret it - (and did you read the OP?) the point of the thread is that the Bible calls a false teacher one who denies the gospel of Christ for the purpose of sordid gain! A false teacher is not of Christ, but rather an enemy of Christ.

Calling everyone who does not teach your interpretation a "false teacher" is wrong, and there is clear biblical proof of that.

Romans 14:4 - Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and stand he will, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Romans 14:10 - But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we shall all stand before the judgement seat of God.

If someone is serving God and devoting their life to Christ, and producing good fruits, what right do other Christians have to tear them down? That, in my opinion, is denying the gospel of Christ in itself. Is not His second greatest commandment to love your neighbor as yourself?

If you look at most of these threads that "expose false teachers", honestly, how much love are you seeing portrayed there? Maybe it's just me, but what I'm seeing is equivalent to a pack of dogs tearing each other apart.:(:

[CountryBumpkin]

broken, I did not continue that thread because no matter what I said, according to you it was only opinion and not proof which is exactly what you are saying to Becky here. I have found that when someone's heart is shut to consider any false doctrine, it is not beneficial to continue at that time.

As for John Wimber there is so much wrong that I have found but for now I will discuss one teaching of his which is erroneous.

In “Power Evangelism” he wrote:


“Evangelism is the proclamation of the Kingdom of God in the fulness of its blessings and promise, which has also been called ‘salvation’.
Jesus did more than preach the Kingdom. He demonstrated its reality with ‘signs of the Kingdom’, public evidence that the Kingdom he was talking about had come. We believe that signs should validate our evangelism, too.
Since ‘the reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work’ (1 John 3:8), he inevitably came into collision with the prince of darkness. The signs of the Kingdom were evidences that the devil was retreating before the advance of the King. As Jesus put it, once the strong man has been overpowered by the Stronger One, his possessions can be taken from him (Matthew 12:29; Luke 11:22).” (bold is mine)

He goes on to talk about Signs of the Kingdom, Kingdom principles, Kingdom authority and Kingdom evangelism.


In “THEOLOGICAL FOUNDATION: THE KINGDOM OF GOD” he says:

“The KINGDOM OF GOD is the Rule of God (the age to come) which has invaded the kingdom (rule) of Satan (this present evil age), and is the arena in which Signs and Wonders occur. They are the "marks" (signs) of the Kingdom. Understanding about the kingdom of God is fundamental to understanding the ministry of Jesus; the kingdom of Satan was his real enemy. There is a war on! Jesus was sent by God to shatter the strongholds of Satan. His ONE PURPOSE was Satan's defeat. Jesus accomplished this through his death, resurrection, and ascension. This demonstrated who was the victor, but Satan is not yet cast out and will not be until Christ returns to establish his Kingdom forever. The Church is God's army in the continual fight which goes on with Satan as she "lives between the times" [CAPS added for emphasis].”

This is all Kingdom Now Theology and is false teaching.

[CountryBumpkin]

Becky? What about this question: How can the Vallottons be called false teachers by the biblical standard?

In your answer, I'm still seeing opinion, that others can debate.

Interpretations of scripture that can be debated can not be used as evidence, right?

For example, what do you think of Charles Stanley? I believe that he is very solid, a man of God. Great teacher. But others have a different opinion. Check out this site:
http://www.atruechurch.info/stanley.html

Personally, I think they are very wrong in calling Stanley a false teacher. He is definately not knowingly leading others astray, nor is he self-serving.

Becky, do you consider Kris Vallotton your brother in Christ?


I would not rely on this site for any information as they are cultist in the sense that they believe that they are the only true church among other things. There are only 50 members and they believe that they are the bride.

[broken]

broken, I did not continue that thread because no matter what I said, according to you it was only opinion and not proof which is exactly what you are saying to Becky here.And this bothers you?

Does this mean that you are not going to get your Bible out and show me the scriptures that contradict Wimber's teaching? If you will go back and read that thread you started, you will see that I was honestly asking you for scriptures so that I could take them to leadership and ask them some questions. What about that is leading you to think that my heart is not open?

And I posted that link above as an example of people crying "false teacher" every where.

And for crying out loud, once again, this thread is not about exposing true false teachers! Can you show me even any wordly proof that Wimber, Vallotton, or the Bakers are denying Jesus Christ and/or shoving deceived peoples' money into their pockets? Because that is what GOD says a false teacher does.

Even though I very much admire people who defend the truth of the Word of God, if it is not done in love, without trashing other Christians, it's worthless.

You're right. It's pretty much pointless to keep repeating myself. With that said, I guess I'm done with this thread.

May God bless you, and keep you.

[Moony2ns]

But, regardless of how you interpret it - (and did you read the OP?) the point of the thread is that the Bible calls a false teacher one who denies the gospel of Christ for the purpose of sordid gain! A false teacher is not of Christ, but rather an enemy of Christ.


The OP also said...

A good teacher will lead a person towards a deeper relationship with Christ. A false teacher will lead a person away from Him. A good teacher may err, but it’s unintentional and he will accept correction.

If you spend any kind of time researching these people, you will find who they are affiliated with (Benny Hinn, Toronto Blessing folks, etc.) and you will also find their answers to criticism. Because they are "anointed" they are not to be questioned. :sigh

At any rate, it is up to the person promoting the teacher on this website to prove with scripture that the teacher is Biblically solid. Unfortunately, that rarely happens and as people who will stand before God and give an account for what we allow to be taught here, we take it every seriously. For me personally, it is done with loving intentions because the doctrines are often so far off the mark and I see so many people completely unconcerned about them that it's literally like watching my kids run out in traffic. It's frightening and I'm genuinely concerned for my brothers and sisters in the Lord. :sad

Of course, we could all stand to examine ourselves and our attitudes, though, when addressing others, regardless of the subject matter. :nod :hug

Elizabeth

[CaiperLane]

You know what I've noticed!?! Many "teachers, "pastors" and "preachers" are not attending seminary or school rather they feel "led" by God to enter the ministry. (i..e..Joel Osteen)

The problem I have with this is that this can lead to false teaching, whereas an opinion or personal take on scripture will take the place of an educated theological position.

I know Calvary Chapels are led by many who have not attended any type of Biblical schooling. And sometimes that's okay if their walk and relationship with the Lord is deemed strong and wise by church elders and deacons and perhaps others of a strong theological scripturally sound background.

I think this current trend could lead to some shaky theology and false doctrine. (I said "could") And I'm sure that is what's happened with many of the false teachings we are hearing within the last few years.

It's a fine line when you take the leadership role in a church ill equipped doctrinally. I know a few pastors who worked their way up to the leadership in their churches and they know their scripture as well as any seminary-trained pastor.

But....I believe there are those individuals who being led by the Holy Spirit...are able to do the work of Christ without the formal education. Not all. But there are those who it's apparent that God has blessed them with spiritual gifts that replace that theological-based education.

But because it's not a requirement of a person to attend a formal Bible education (and not through the mail) Anyone can start a church, become ordained (like an offer in the back of a magazine) and preach and teach all along not being scripturally grounded.

Unless the denomination calls for their leaders to be formally educated and graduates of a seminary, Bible College or hold a theological degree there's no way to tell when those leaders begin to teach their version of scripture.

That's why as Believers we need to study the Word and pray for the Spirit's discernment.

And yes of course there are those who have been trained but still manage to mess up the message. Then you have to wonder what their relationship with Jesus is. There are people who become ministers and pastors just for the social position and respect. (or for whatever reason besides wanting to serve God because they felt called by Him)

[Ladybug]

Also, considering the stuff that's being taught in some of those seminaries, Bible Colleges, etc......:fear

[Becky]

John Wimber was a false teacher. :tsk He taught the kingdom of God is here and now. He emphasized signs and wonders with his power evangelism without much substantial teaching about the cross. He seemed to focus on himself, his church, and "signs and wonders".

He died in 1997. Wimber was the leader of the Vineyard Christian Fellowships, a hyper-charismatic organization within the Vineyard Movement (which itself is also known by the names of "third wave," "Signs and Wonders Movement," and "power theology")

- As an overview, Wimber's teachings erred dramatically in three main areas (each one of these is addressed in more detail later in this report): (MS, p. 22)*

(1) Dependence on experience rather than Scripture, leading to both a pragmatic (if it works, it must be from God) and a subjective approach (all sources of truth are equally valid) -- "experience first, then mold theology to fit the experience," seemed to be Wimber's motto.

(2) Acceptance of occult/New Age practices in "Christian" forms, such as aura reading and manipulation, the teaching of "inner healing," astral projection, contact with familiar spirits, and psychological and occult methodologies.

(3) A mystical view of spiritual warfare that comes dangerously close to spiritism, culminating in the belief that even Christians can be possessed by demons.
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/wimber/general.htm

[Becky]

And this bothers you?

Does this mean that you are not going to get your Bible out and show me the scriptures that contradict Wimber's teaching? If you will go back and read that thread you started, you will see that I was honestly asking you for scriptures so that I could take them to leadership and ask them some questions. What about that is leading you to think that my heart is not open?

And I posted that link above as an example of people crying "false teacher" every where.

And for crying out loud, once again, this thread is not about exposing true false teachers! Can you show me even any wordly proof that Wimber, Vallotton, or the Bakers are denying Jesus Christ and/or shoving deceived peoples' money into their pockets? Because that is what GOD says a false teacher does.

Even though I very much admire people who defend the truth of the Word of God, if it is not done in love, without trashing other Christians, it's worthless.

You're right. It's pretty much pointless to keep repeating myself. With that said, I guess I'm done with this thread.

May God bless you, and keep you.I showed you already. I just showed you again in my post above. You want to rant or do you want to discuss? This seems very one sided and you think because we disagree with you that we are not loving people? Yet you turn your back and ignore our responses.

I for one would like to know why you defend these people when there is ample proof they are teaching a false doctrine.

[sometime soon]

:hug There are so many out there that are really not teaching that Jesus died on the cross and was the son of God and did this for our sins. Because we are not perfectic just look at my spelling :doh but the Lord knows our hearts and if we truly Love him and God so let the wicked do wicked and the holy be holy and all will be accounted for in the end. But with they way things are going I would not want to be mad at anyone and then be infront of the Lord the next sec. :peep :bolt

[Becky]

Thanks sometime soon. We are not mad but instead we are putting out red warning flags for others so they are not taken in by these false teachings. Some of these teachings are destructive for both Christians and non-Christians.

[CaiperLane]

Also, considering the stuff that's being taught in some of those seminaries, Bible Colleges, etc......:fear


Very true. A Bible student must research and seek out a scripturally sound school as well. :thumb

What pressure they have to face!

[sometime soon]

:angel :hug :hug amen

[CaiperLane]

John Wimber was a false teacher. :tsk He taught the kingdom of God is here and now. He emphasized signs and wonders with his power evangelism without much substantial teaching about the cross. He seemed to focus on himself, his church, and "signs and wonders".

He died in 1997. Wimber was the leader of the Vineyard Christian Fellowships, a hyper-charismatic organization within the Vineyard Movement (which itself is also known by the names of "third wave," "Signs and Wonders Movement," and "power theology")

- As an overview, Wimber's teachings erred dramatically in three main areas (each one of these is addressed in more detail later in this report): (MS, p. 22)*

(1) Dependence on experience rather than Scripture, leading to both a pragmatic (if it works, it must be from God) and a subjective approach (all sources of truth are equally valid) -- "experience first, then mold theology to fit the experience," seemed to be Wimber's motto.

(2) Acceptance of occult/New Age practices in "Christian" forms, such as aura reading and manipulation, the teaching of "inner healing," astral projection, contact with familiar spirits, and psychological and occult methodologies.

(3) A mystical view of spiritual warfare that comes dangerously close to spiritism, culminating in the belief that even Christians can be possessed by demons.
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/wimber/general.htm

Pastor Ken Gulliksen who founded the vineyard movement has expressed regrets in handing over the reigns to John Wimber “I personally regretted giving John the Vineyard - lock, stock and barrel,” he said in an interview.
"I should have remained more involved with an emphasis on the Word. My gifts were teaching and evangelism and those weren’t well regarded in the Vineyard by John." - The Quest for the Radical Middle a history of the Vineyard by Bill Jackson

It's kind of sad. I don't believe anyone should have complete power and authority over any denomination. The only authority should be Christ. Not a man.

I think sometimes power corrupts people. And when that happens they are giving the devil an in. :(:

[JoelH]

John Wimber was a false teacher. :tsk He taught the kingdom of God is here and now. He emphasized signs and wonders with his power evangelism without much substantial teaching about the cross. He seemed to focus on himself, his church, and "signs and wonders".

He died in 1997. Wimber was the leader of the Vineyard Christian Fellowships, a hyper-charismatic organization within the Vineyard Movement (which itself is also known by the names of "third wave," "Signs and Wonders Movement," and "power theology")

- As an overview, Wimber's teachings erred dramatically in three main areas (each one of these is addressed in more detail later in this report): (MS, p. 22)*

(1) Dependence on experience rather than Scripture, leading to both a pragmatic (if it works, it must be from God) and a subjective approach (all sources of truth are equally valid) -- "experience first, then mold theology to fit the experience," seemed to be Wimber's motto.

(2) Acceptance of occult/New Age practices in "Christian" forms, such as aura reading and manipulation, the teaching of "inner healing," astral projection, contact with familiar spirits, and psychological and occult methodologies.

(3) A mystical view of spiritual warfare that comes dangerously close to spiritism, culminating in the belief that even Christians can be possessed by demons.
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/wimber/general.htm

Becky, there is a popular belief in the Western Christendom, even a significant part of the evangelicalism that as long as someone "believes that Jesus Christ is his Lord and Saviour" he is our brother in Christ and everything he teaches that differ from our belief is just because of a matter of interpretations and should be resolved through dialogues. After all, "we are united on the essentials, diversity of opinions on the non-essentials, aren't we?"

I feel like the whole scene is a bit like the Episcopal church of 35 years ago. The roots of doctrinal apostasy are already here, and leaders of the so-called emergent church movement in a sense could well be the spiritual successors to Bishop James Pike. Will people wake up when we get to a stage to produce our own John Spong from our midst??? :mad

YBIC,

Joel

[broken]

I showed you already. I just showed you again in my post above. You want to rant or do you want to discuss? This seems very one sided and you think because we disagree with you that we are not loving people? Yet you turn your back and ignore our responses.

I for one would like to know why you defend these people when there is ample proof they are teaching a false doctrine.I'm beginning to see my mistake - I gave you names as examples, so you think I am defending their teachings. Please look close at my posts - even at all the past ones - and you'll see that I'm not defending their teachings. It is not about that at all!(Except, of course, that I have witnessed good fruits from all mentioned)

Your responses to me have not been what I've asked for a response to. I'm sorry that I came across as ranting - I'm simply a little frustrated. I am asking if people can see that the Bible makes a distinction between actual false teachers, and people who have maybe misinterpretted the scripture. This is what the original post was about, and it really spoke to me.

Am I really the only one, besides the OP, who sees it that way?

[CaiperLane]

I'm beginning to see my mistake - I gave you names as examples, so you think I am defending their teachings. Please look close at my posts - even at all the past ones - and you'll see that I'm not defending their teachings. It is not about that at all!(Except, of course, that I have witnessed good fruits from all mentioned)

Your responses to me have not been what I've asked for a response to. I'm sorry that I came across as ranting - I'm simply a little frustrated. I am asking if people can see that the Bible makes a distinction between actual false teachers, and people who have maybe misinterpretted the scripture. This is what the original post was about, and it really spoke to me.

Am I really the only one, besides the OP, who sees it that way?

I see what you mean. But if someone is mistaken in their interpretation and they preach it to others that still makes them a false teacher. They are preaching a falsehood. Kind of like a person who hears information that they deem reliable but then they tell someone else. They've just gossiped. There's making a mistake or continuing behavior. If a pastor/teacher/preacher continues to teach based on a false theological position then that makes him a false teacher. The reasons don't matter. The results do.

I don't know if that answers your question. :):

[Becky]

broken, you asked for scripture to back up they were false teachers and we did. They are leading people away from Christ by not staying the course with the Truth. They take truth and mix it with lies.

The OP was making a distinction between a mistake and a constant false teaching for the gain of the individual.

There will be false teachers among us
- They will appear to be godly, but are not
- They will secretly bring destructive teaching
- They will exploit people through deceptive words
- They promote doctrine that contradicts the teachings of Christ and the Apostles

Everything matches up to the ones you were using as an example as being a false teacher.

There is no hate in our hearts. We just look for the truth and we are being Bereans in the Word.

If you could clarify your position more by showing us where we were discussing this issue with hate and anger, I would like to know and address this.

[broken]

I see what you mean. But if someone is mistaken in their interpretation and they preach it to others that still makes them a false teacher. They are preaching a falsehood. Kind of like a person who hears information that they deem reliable but then they tell someone else. They've just gossiped. There's making a mistake or continuing behavior. If a pastor/teacher/preacher continues to teach based on a false theological position then that makes him a false teacher. The reasons don't matter. The results do.I agree with you, CaiperLane, that they may be teaching a falsehood - but the question is, in whose eyes?

There are so many beliefs and doctrines, like Calvinism and Arminianism; pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib rapture; spiritual gifts for today, or not - all of these things are debated, usually with alot of passion. But they are not salvation issues, are they?

Nearly every teaching that is questioned on our board is not a salvation issue, either. Some of the teachings are definately harmful, but that does not mean that those teachers are leading their followers down a path to hell.

If a Calvinist tells an Arminianist that he is teaching the wrong message - why should the Arminianist not say, "No, YOU are."? Does that mean that either one of these people deserve to be condemned by the other?

The OP was making a distinction between a mistake and a constant false teaching for the gain of the individual.
You're right, Becky. For me, the key words are "for the gain of the individual". I was asking how those teachers we talked about were gaining anything for themselves, as they lead people astray.

Another thing that I think should be questioned is - what if you're wrong? What if you are the hypothetical post-trib believer, and Vallotton is the pre-trib believer? Or vice versa. Does it really matter, if it is not a salvational issue?(Not you in particular, Becky).

I agree that Wimber focused way too much on himself and the church. I see that being an annoyance in the Vineyards - the leadership is always offering home groups that study the "Vineyard foundations". But to me, that's all it is - an annoyance. I guess to others it may be considered dangerous. I haven't been to any of those meetings, and I don't let them affect my own walk with Christ.
But I do know one thing - there are some amazing, loving, godly people in my church that have lain down their lives for Christ, and others.

In no way whatsoever have they, nor I, been led astray. To suggest otherwise, intentional or not, is what I would consider unloving.

[CaiperLane]

I agree with you, CaiperLane, that they may be teaching a falsehood - but the question is, in whose eyes?

Well God's eyes. The Bible is clear that false doctrine is WRONG on ANY level. See, MOST if not ALL of these false doctrines take away God's deity, his power or credit. And they give it to man. Blasphemy is a big no-no. :nono

There are so many beliefs and doctrines, like Calvinism and Arminianism; pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib rapture; spiritual gifts for today, or not - all of these things are debated, usually with alot of passion. But they are not salvation issues, are they?

No they are not. Well I have a problem with Calvinism AND Arminianism but that's for another thread.

But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. - Titus 3:9

Nearly every teaching that is questioned on our board is not a salvation issue, either. Some of the teachings are definately harmful, but that does not mean that those teachers are leading their followers down a path to hell.

Well most of the debates I've seen do involve false doctrines that could lead a person down the road to destruction. Most of the ones I've seen here give credit to man for being equal to God or having the abilities that God has. For many, they fall within the Word Of Faith category.

It's like if you saw someone crossing the street and unknowingly had a car speeding towards them. If you knew the person was a Christian would you yell for him to get out of the way or would you just hope he did on his own and if not, he'd go to Heaven so it wouldn't matter?

If a Calvinist tells an Arminianist that he is teaching the wrong message - why should the Arminianist not say, "No, YOU are."? Does that mean that either one of these people deserve to be condemned by the other?

Does it mean either of them are correct?

You're right, Becky. For me, the key words are "for the gain of the individual". I was asking how those teachers we talked about were gaining anything for themselves, as they lead people astray.

I don't mean to intrude I know you meant this for Becky, but these teachers gain alot. Power, prestige, money and in "some" cases doing Satan's work unknowingly. Satan works for free by the way.

Another thing that I think should be questioned is - what if you're wrong? What if you are the hypothetical post-trib believer, and Vallotton is the pre-trib believer? Or vice versa. Does it really matter, if it is not a salvational issue?(Not you in particular, Becky).

No. But when the theology directly contradicts scripture or takes away what God has revealed to us through His Word there's a teensy weensy problemo....

I agree that Wimber focused way too much on himself and the church. I see that being an annoyance in the Vineyards - the leadership is always offering home groups that study the "Vineyard foundations". But to me, that's all it is - an annoyance. I guess to others it may be considered dangerous. I haven't been to any of those meetings, and I don't let them affect my own walk with Christ.

I've been to a few Vineyards. I would say that Wimber didn't teach much on accountability nor did he concentrate on the teachings of Jesus as God's expectations for how we are to live our lives. And the Vineyards I attended didn't either. They were really into the music and a feel good atmosphere. This of course does not mean that all the vineyards were this way. I know there has been alot of changes since John Wimber passed on.

People NEED to hear that they will go to hell if they do not repent and accept Jesus. They need to hear that continuing in sin is wrong. And they need to hear that you cannot continue to live your life like an unbeliever just because your saved. Those topics were NOT a popular subject for John Wimber either. Ken Gulliksen who was the "original" founder of the Vineyards seems to agree.

But I do know one thing - there are some amazing, loving, godly people in my church that have lain down their lives for Christ, and others.

I'm sure there are. There are in my own church as well. But there are Christians who are weaker and do not have the Biblical knowledge that other more mature Christians do.

In no way whatsoever have they, nor I, been led astray. To suggest otherwise, intentional or not, is what I would consider unloving.

I don't think anyone was suggesting anything like that. But...there ARE people who have been led astray by these false teachers. It is our duty as the followers of Christ to speak the Truth. And if we find a teacher is preaching untruths than we cannot stay silent. :):