My God of peace vs. Your God of peace

[Pyrogenesis]

I can't help but notice the somewhat over-the-top hate being directed at Muslems around here. Take this thread (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=266020), for example (You rock Christine). A news story is posted about American citizens using their freedom of speech to protest the political stance of their country (Something that I see a lot of around here, now that I think about it). Normally this would start a round of moderately intelligent debate. But alas, these particular American citizens happen to be Muslem, so instead of discussion about freedom of religion or speech, we get a thread full of comments that amount to little more than "F- off Muslems!". Let me say this: You embarass me.

Let me clarify something here; Yes, I'm a Christian. I've attended Bible College, and once I've paid off my outstanding debits I'm going into full-time ministry. I'd probably get labeled as a fundimentalist if someone took the time to distil my life and beliefs. I love Jesus with all that I am, which is why it disturbs be to see the hate that festers below the skin of some of the people that claim His name! You don't have to like Islam; in fact, you have to hate it, because it's a false religion that promotes violence. But that doesn't mean we hate the innocent people that got suckered into it! Most Muslems are 3rd generation or more (Belief in Islam, not American). They come from devout families and are themselves devoted to their god, as false as he may be. If I were a betting man, I'd wager they pray a lot more than half the people here (including me). While this doesn't make them right or their religion any less false, it demands a certain level of respect for them as people, most of all from the people that claim to have been transformed by God's love!

I have a good friend who's name is Gareth. He is, by any measure of the term, a good man. He is not a Christian, and at times it is a point of strain on our relationship. Let me give you an excerpt from an ongoing discussion we have:

"You chrstians are nothing like your Christ at all. If they were like you personally, I would abandon my useless crusade and join you in your Father's house. But they are not like you, Pyro. They are scary people."

The only God that Gareth sees is the one we show him. I do my best to show a loving God that cares, even died for EVERY man woman and child on the planet. A God that would have us love our neighbour. Is it little wonder that Gareth thinks that we're nothing like Christ if we spew hateful anti-Muslem anti-homosexual, anti-(Instert disliked people group here) retoric at every turn? We are not called to like their ideas or their beliefs, but we are called to love them.

[Lookingup4you]

I read the thread you mentioned and from what i could gather people were ticked off at the muslims because they were not supporting their country but hezbollah and hamas not to mention syria and iran over the US. I could be wrong but it seemed to me the muslims actually expected us for some crazy reason to turn against israel even though we are allies. I think that is why people were angry.

[neuron]

Awesome thread; I stopped coming here for several months because to be frank, the stuff people posted here was sickening and embaressing to see coming from Christians. With all of the recent ME activity, I stopped by to see what the rr-bb crowd made of it, and saw the thread you mentioned up there. It was great to see the admins keeping conversation mature and civilized.

Again, great thread. I think sometimes we (Christians) are our own worst enemies when it comes to being good ambassadors for the Kingdom

[Pyrogenesis]

I read the thread you mentioned and from what i could gather people were ticked off at the muslims because they were not supporting their country but hezbollah and hamas not to mention syria and iran over the US. I could be wrong but it seemed to me the muslims actually expected us for some crazy reason to turn against israel even though we are allies. I think that is why people were angry.

That's not what the article (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060717/ts_alt_afp/mideastconflictus_060717234806;_ylt=AnuZdnL1P7ABOs3wdnfN6QgUvioA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl) said. Here's some excerpts from it:

"Once again America's image and interests worldwide are being harmed by one-sided support for Israeli actions," said Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for CAIR, the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the largest US Muslim rights group.

"We're urging Muslims in America and other people of conscience to contact their elected officials to tell them that we have to have balanced foreign policy for the Middle East, one that is driven by American interests, not Israeli interests."

American Islamic Congress director Zainab Al-Suwaij had an even more immediate goal, urging the US to actively lobby for an end to violence.

"The policy for the US should be stopping the violence, period, and starting to solve the problem through negotiations."

Now, that doesn't sound at all unreasonable from where I'm standing. It should have sparked intelligent debate. Even if you don't agree with what the American Islamic Congress director has to say we should at least discuss it in a rational manner, not in a knee-jerk "Get out of our country". Looks like a few people missed the 'American' part of 'American Islamic'.

[Christine]

The issues that the admins were addressing on that thread involved people making comments like muslims can't be American and that American born muslims should "go back where they came from" (whatever thats supposed to mean).

It had nothing to do with supporting their anti-Israeli stance/rants.

[smilinnow]

Hi Pyro,

I do my best to show a loving God that cares, even died for EVERY man woman and child on the planet.

I am wondering...perhaps it may be a good idea to change your "Location" in your sig? I realize that "in your base, killin' your dudes" is probably a video game reference or something, but I could not help but see the irony between how that reads and your otherwise heartfelt post.

Blessings,

Smilin

[TheKingisComing]

He did die for everyone But u must accept what he did for you for it to work it doesnt cover you without belief

[Pyrogenesis]

Hi Pyro,



I am wondering...perhaps it may be a good idea to change your "Location" in your sig? I realize that "in your base, killin' your dudes" is probably a video game reference or something, but I could not help but see the irony between how that reads and your otherwise heartfelt post.

Blessings,

Smilin

lol!! Yea, it's a internet gaming cliche. Good point :D:

The issues that the admins were addressing on that thread involved people making comments like muslims can't be American and that American born muslims should "go back where they came from" (whatever thats supposed to mean).

It had nothing to do with supporting their anti-Israeli stance/rants.

Oh, I agree.

I'm pro-Israel, and I think that the Islamic retoric about them not having the right to exist, etc. is 1st degree garbage. I just think that the flurry of single-line posts telling Americans to get out of America for exercising their freedom of speech in support of something they don't agree with is unacceptable from Christians who claim to be representing Christ.

I don't agree with what Muslems are saying either, but rational discussion is more my cup of tea, not thinly veiled hatred.

[smilinnow]

LOVE the "location correction" Pyro!! Right on!! :thumb :thumb :D:

Carry on! :):

[CJL]

Let me say this: You embarass me.You had my full agreement until you made this comment. I think you need to understand that with all of the terrorism around us now and fed to us by our 24/7 news, people's nerves are a little raw. Christians are people too. They make mistakes and sin all the time. That is what is great about Christ. He is always there with His arms wide open to take us back. Sometimes, this board gets heated and passionate but I find most of the Christians on this board very good people and have huge hearts. My suggestion to you is when you want to get your point across, do it in love. I don't ever remember Jesus telling his disciples when they screwed up that He was "embarassed" by them. He lovingly corrected them.

YBIC,
CJL

[Christine]

CJL,

From an admin perspective, there are many here who do not accept correction of any kind - no matter how phrased or how heartfelt. That is the nature of a message board, unfortunately. No accountability -- and other members correcting people goes in one ear and out the other (or starts a fight) in all too many cases because there is no respect that another peer member may have something of value to teach.

I wish I could count the number of times that I saw people defending their 'right' to post the comments I referenced in post #5, but I just don't have time to go back through it all.

Suffice to say, it was addressed by admins on a few threads, and will hopefully quiet back down in short order. People need to remember to think before they post.

:sigh

[pilgrimian]

"Once again America's image and interests worldwide are being harmed by one-sided support for Israeli actions," said Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for CAIR, the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the largest US Muslim rights group.

"We're urging Muslims in America and other people of conscience to contact their elected officials to tell them that we have to have balanced foreign policy for the Middle East, one that is driven by American interests, not Israeli interests."

American Islamic Congress director Zainab Al-Suwaij had an even more immediate goal, urging the US to actively lobby for an end to violence.

"The policy for the US should be stopping the violence, period, and starting to solve the problem through negotiations."

Now, that doesn't sound at all unreasonable from where I'm standing. It should have sparked intelligent debate. Even if you don't agree with what the American Islamic Congress director has to say we should at least discuss it in a rational manner, not in a knee-jerk "Get out of our country". Looks like a few people missed the 'American' part of 'American Islamic'.

I will have to read the full thread...but from what is mentioned by Hooper here I don't see much hope. Hooper is saying that Israeli interests are not American interests. This could be a discussion that could go quite deep, if you'd like. But I'll state simply the issue:

Hezbollah kidnaps Israeli soldiers...then wants a prisoner swap, and asks for Israel to quit defending herself. Hmmmmm...what am I missing Pyro?

Hezbollah has no intention of letting up (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aJSUiuYkUjbA&refer=home)on shelling northern Israel, Abdallah Kassir, a member of the Shiite Islamist group's leadership, said in an interview yesterday. Hezbollah wants an unconditional cease-fire followed by talks on a prisoner swap, he said.

The Iranian (whose president is calling for Israel to be swept into the sea...can someone say 1948/1967?) and Syrian connection is obvious, and this kidnapping of soldiers was carefully coordinated by these terrorists. And Hooper is saying that the U.S. should try to broker peace? Is Hezbolloah interested in peace? They're interested in swapping prisoners, and poked Israel in the eye in an attempt to broker this. Is this how civilized groups work? After all, Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government...so why must they use these tactics, Pyro?

Basically, what I see the Islamic fellow saying is that we shouldn't accept that Israel has the right to defend herself. So, is a "balanced" position in the Middle East allowing the terrorists to take over?

I find the fellow's comments condescending to those of us who keep an ear to the track and watch the Middle East. Over the past week I have seen numerous news organizations concerned with Lebanese casualties--and the horror of the "Israeli aggressors." None of this would have happened had Hezbollah not done what they did. They provoked it, and now they want the international community to tell Israel to hold back and concede to terrorist demands. That's not at all reasonable IMO.

Furthermore, I have a number of friends in Israel....and have seen one single news segment concerning people in Israel. Most of it has focused on people in Lebanon. A friend's mother left Nahariya to stay in Tel Aviv...another friend is presently studying in Jerusalem. What of all the Americans in Israel? Why don't we see any concern over them? You don't need to answer all these questions, and I don't mean to vent at you. But it is rather lop-sided. Perhaps Mr. Hooper should watch the CBS, NBC, or ABC news and he'll see that things aren't as lop-sided as he thinks they are. I believe what's under his skin is the fact that Israel exists, and that the U.S. is such a staunch ally of theirs. In all reality, though, why would we be allies with the likes of Hezbollah? Where does he believe American interests should be?

[Laura-bell]

I can't help but notice the somewhat over-the-top hate being directed at Muslems around here. Take this thread (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=266020), for example (You rock Christine). A news story is posted about American citizens using their freedom of speech to protest the political stance of their country (Something that I see a lot of around here, now that I think about it). Normally this would start a round of moderately intelligent debate. But alas, these particular American citizens happen to be Muslem, so instead of discussion about freedom of religion or speech, we get a thread full of comments that amount to little more than "F- off Muslems!". Let me say this: You embarass me.

Let me clarify something here; Yes, I'm a Christian. I've attended Bible College, and once I've paid off my outstanding debits I'm going into full-time ministry. I'd probably get labeled as a fundimentalist if someone took the time to distil my life and beliefs. I love Jesus with all that I am, which is why it disturbs be to see the hate that festers below the skin of some of the people that claim His name! You don't have to like Islam; in fact, you have to hate it, because it's a false religion that promotes violence. But that doesn't mean we hate the innocent people that got suckered into it! Most Muslems are 3rd generation or more (Belief in Islam, not American). They come from devout families and are themselves devoted to their god, as false as he may be. If I were a betting man, I'd wager they pray a lot more than half the people here (including me). While this doesn't make them right or their religion any less false, it demands a certain level of respect for them as people, most of all from the people that claim to have been transformed by God's love!

I have a good friend who's name is Gareth. He is, by any measure of the term, a good man. He is not a Christian, and at times it is a point of strain on our relationship. Let me give you an excerpt from an ongoing discussion we have:

"You chrstians are nothing like your Christ at all. If they were like you personally, I would abandon my useless crusade and join you in your Father's house. But they are not like you, Pyro. They are scary people."

The only God that Gareth sees is the one we show him. I do my best to show a loving God that cares, even died for EVERY man woman and child on the planet. A God that would have us love our neighbour. Is it little wonder that Gareth thinks that we're nothing like Christ if we spew hateful anti-Muslem anti-homosexual, anti-(Instert disliked people group here) retoric at every turn? We are not called to like their ideas or their beliefs, but we are called to love them.


While I agree with you, I have to say that we are still not without fault and the ability to get angry and frustrated with individuals who lie about what their faith is really about. Yes I am aware that not all mulims are the violent kind, but the reality is that violence and hatred is what it teaches. They have just westernized it to fit in America. I realize that we as christians don't portray what our faith is all about at times, quite often in fact, but it's harder to live up to what our faith teaches as opposed to what their faith teaches. I think saying that your God (Jesus)is a god of love and not being able to live up to it is more understandable than saying your god (allah) is a god of love and living up to the violence that it teaches. It flys in the face of truth to call a violent hateful god a god of love and peace. That's what I think most people are feeling in this thread you posted about. You know, the old attitude that says if this thing is so great and true, then go live where it is predominant. Kind of like, "if baal is god then serve him, but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord". Where as preaching the truth about Jesus and not being able to live up to that is, well.....human.

[Christine]

Hmmmmm...what am I missing Pyro? You are missing the link posted in the opening post -- which was apparently the catalyst for this thread. ;):

Sa far as your comments about Americans in the area and Isreali news, you apparently don't watch Fox. Just the other day, someone posted that it was unfair that all of the emphasis of the American media has been about Americans in the region.

You can't please everyone, aye?

[Christine]

You know, the old attitude that says if this thing is so great and true, then go live where it is predominant. Far cry between that and "American muslims should go back where they came from".

[pilgrimian]

You are missing the link posted in the opening post -- which was apparently the catalyst for this thread. ;):

Not much to comment on there IMO. It would be wise of these folks to be a bit more discerning about what they type, but I'm faulty too and have vented many a time. I recall you PMing me when I went a little ballistic on KJV-Onlyism. Wow, seems like just the other day--how time passes. Perhaps a better thing to say, in regard to "go back to where you're from" would be that our country wasn't created to be a theocracy. If any of them want a theocracy then their time would likely be better spent attempting to do this elsewhere. Unfortunately, they must do this where people are generally not well educated, and don't realize (or can't withstand) the balderdash these people preach.

Sa far as your comments about Americans in the area and Isreali news, you apparently don't watch Fox. Just the other day, someone posted that it was unfair that all of the emphasis of the American media has been about Americans in the region.

You can't please everyone, aye?

Well, I don't have cable TV. :sigh

The people I know in Israel are keeping touch...so I do know about their well-being. But I was just noticing how the news really seems to emphasize the Lebanese and their plight when it was Hezbollah that provoked the whole matter.

[Mike]

"You chrstians are nothing like your Christ at all. If they were like you personally, I would abandon my useless crusade and join you in your Father's house. But they are not like you, Pyro. They are scary people."



Do you think his reasoning will keep him out of hell?

[HeIsEnough]

Do you think his reasoning will keep him out of hell?

No, it won't. The human heart is amazingly deceptive, and no more potent than to itself.

Howeva....

We are called to a higher place, beyond the mere preservation of a people, even our own people, like sheep to the slaughter. We, meaning me and you christian, need to take a hard look beyond the simplistic, ordinary, friends of my friend mentality if we ever want to stave off hell's eternal fire for an individual. If we truly desire God's own heart, then we will surely see He loves His people Israel. What we are shameful about, is that the Lord declared His concern and care, dare I say love?, to people who hate. Read Jonah. All those lands the Apostle(s) travelled to, all those people God desired to reach with His message unadulterated by silly man and his silly plans, were filled with people who hate Israel and God.

It's a dichotomy. In order to reach someone devoted to all the wrong things, someone will need to step up and lose their life for His sake. I praise all those who go into Israel to spread the gospel. But the gold medal of honor will surely be available for those who risk it all to go to the Arabs who would like nothing more than to see our blood spilled. I think about such things, and I praise God He has raised some to do it. Just some musings.

[Harley]

I can't help but notice the somewhat over-the-top hate being directed at Muslems around here. Take this thread (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=266020), for example (You rock Christine)...
WOW - i had not seen that thread... what an embarrassment to the the cause of Christ. i read the first page and could not take the hate any longer...

[Harley]

The issues that the admins were addressing on that thread involved people making comments like muslims can't be American and that American born muslims should "go back where they came from" (whatever thats supposed to mean).

It had nothing to do with supporting their anti-Israeli stance/rants.
not only that... but comments that imply muslims cannot be american, when turned to look at the other side, implies one must be americanized or westernized to, or to become, a christian.

so, when sharing the gospel with muslims not only must we deal with a long and sorry history of christian/muslim relations - we must also deal with the implication that being a christian means being western.

[HiLaReE320]

I can't believe not only the thread the OP posted, but how some people are actually defending the ones that made the posts in that thread! How typical. We were shouting the same thing at blacks less than a hundred years ago to go back to Africa because "they didn't like the way things were done here in America." Give me a break. Yes, Islam is a false religion but let me tell you if I was an unbeliever and had happened upon that thread (among others here on RR), it would have done more harm than good. Like Christine said, people just need to think before they post. Yes, Christians are humans too and have a right to be upset about certain things, but personally, I don't think you have that liberty on this board where thousands of people from who knows where are reading these posts. Unlike many seem to believe, honey is still better at catching flies than vinegar! And always will be!

[CJL]

I can't believe not only the thread the OP posted, but how some people are actually defending the ones that made the posts in that thread! How typical.I am not sure I see anyone "defending" what was posted. I think what you may be seeing is an acknowledgement that Christians sometimes say and do things that are not very Christlike. Unfortunately, it does happen. The issue is how to address these times. I think this thread has some valid points:

1. Think before you post. If you are typing while extremely emotional, then it is probably not a good idea to post.

2. When people post un-Christlike things, correct them as Christ would have with a loving heart. Sometimes that works but from the sounds of it, sometimes it does not. I think the key is when correction happens, it should not be as abrasive as the comments themselves. To pay a compliment to our Admins, I have seen numerous warnings in my years here and I can't recall an Admin warning someone in a mean-spirited way.

When it is all said and done, we are all suppose to be ambassadors for Christ. Yes, we all screw up and hurt the cause of Christ. I don't think there is anything new here. Just seek forgiveness and seek Christ to guide you in all you do and say.

YBIC,
CJL

[Pyrogenesis]

You had my full agreement until you made this comment. I think you need to understand that with all of the terrorism around us now and fed to us by our 24/7 news, people's nerves are a little raw. Christians are people too. They make mistakes and sin all the time. That is what is great about Christ. He is always there with His arms wide open to take us back. Sometimes, this board gets heated and passionate but I find most of the Christians on this board very good people and have huge hearts. My suggestion to you is when you want to get your point across, do it in love. I don't ever remember Jesus telling his disciples when they screwed up that He was "embarassed" by them. He lovingly corrected them.

YBIC,
CJL

Aww heck, don't get me wrong. I embarass me sometimes :): I just get a little frustrated when I see people miss-representing Christ in that way. I've tried many times to get my point across in love before, but in all honesty I think that we need a little harsh correction sometimes.

In Christianity these days it seems the voice of love is supposed to be calm and unassuming. That's often the form it takes, but it's not the only way.

I'm a member of a local Christian group that has a fairly good reputation. When I saw members of my group getting drunk at a party I felt like slamming some of the guys up against the wall. Why? Because as a member of the group it was MY reputation they were screwing up. I felt the same way when I read that thread in my first post; here were people that were representing my God and Saviour, and they were issuing forth hate and intollerence towards people that had a right to do what they were doing!

I'm not American, never even been there. But I feel a strong connection to the Constitution and the Declaration of Independance because of their forthright, honest and unshakable nature. American Muslems are Americans; they have every right to say what they said. When American Christians stand up against abortion, sex before marriage and all the other things that go against Scripture, nobody can say "Go back to where you came from" because America is their home. We would be outraged to be told "Go back home", how is it that we can tell other Americans to go home when America is their home?

To me it is hypocracy of the highest degree, which is why I responded in such an annoyed fashion. Much of it was a knee-jerk reaction, and admitedly a little too harsh; for that I have some regret. But the message still stays the same: As Americans and as Christians it is our duty to uphold the virtues upon which America was founded and the values that Jesus Himself gave us.

To sum it up in one quote:

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Beatrice Hall (The Friends of Voltaire, 1906) [Often attributed to Voltaire]