YoungDisciple10
July 18th, 2006, 01:50 PM
I need help in tring to reply to a person who doesn't beleive in the Pre-Trib Rapture.Here is a quote from this person.
The Bible addresses this very issue very clearly and unambiguously in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
Brothers and Sisters, we have something to say about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and the time when we will meet together with him. Do not become easily upset in your thinking or afraid if you hear that the day of the Lord has already come. Someone might say this as a prophecy or in a message or in a letter as if it came from us. Do not let anyone fool you in any way. The Day of the Lord will not come until the turning away from God happens and the Man of Evil, who is on his way to hell, appears.
This means that we can quickly discount some Bible Verses used to support the pre-trib argument such as 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. In verse 16 it mentions 'The Lord himself will come down from heaven' - and we know from the previous Bible Verse in 2 Thessalonians that he will not come down until the tribulation happens.
In 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 passage - it mentions the trumpet sounding in verse 52. I don't think it unreasonable to assume that this is the same trumpet mentioned in the 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 passage in verse 16. the sound of the trumpet will herald Jesus' return. This again shows that the events described in 1 Corinthians are happening when Jesus returns - which he will not do until the tribulation happens.
The two strongest Bible verses which support the idea of a pre-trib rapture are 1 Thessalonians 5:9 and Revelation 3:10. The former says that 'God did not choose us to suffer his anger but to have salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.' However the inference from this that 'God will take all believers up into heaven before the tribulation starts' is weak and vague. It could just as easily mean that God's people will not suffer his anger in hell but will live in salvation in heaven. For the belief in a pre-trib rapture to be accepted - there must be more solid evidence.
So now we come to Revelation 3:10. At first glance it looks convincing. It says "So I will keep you from the time of trouble that will come to the whole world to test those who live on earth."
However, we have to look at the context. John was given seven different messages to seven specific churches. That text is part of one of those letters written specifically to the Church at Philadelphia - it was not written as a general prophecy to all believers - and as such cannot be taken to mean that we are all going to kept from the time of trouble.
As for the 'differences' between the rapture and the second coming:
1) At the Rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the Second Coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).
I don't see where you get that from at all. All the revelation passage says is: 'The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, were following him on white horses.' Again the inferred idea from this that 'Jesus will return to earth whereas before he stayed in the air' is weak and unconvincing.
(2) The Second Coming occurs after the great and terrible Tribulation (Revelation chapters 6-19). The Rapture occurs before the Tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
Well, I've already dealt with those two verses above.
(3) The Rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17; 5:9). The Second Coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).
I find myself agreeing with Mr Gentleman. This is definitely a 'copy and paste' post. These verses don't say anything like what 'you' claim they do - something you would know if this was your own work. The given Matthew passage merely talks about what happens. It does not describe in any way why it happens or what the purpose of it is - and it does not say that this is because of an act of judgement.
4) The Rapture will be “secret” and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The Second Coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).
The Corinthians passage does not ever claim that was is happening will be secret and hidden. Paul says 'But Look! I tell you this secret' - and goes on to say what will happen - but he does not claim that it will actually be hidden and secret when it actually happens. He describes it as a secret he will tell to them because it is about the future and it is therefore a secret to the people in the present.
(5) The Second Coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6-18). The Rapture is imminent, it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).
I have looked at the Titus passage, the Thessalonians passage and the Corinthians passage and I cannot see where it says in any of them that the rapture is imminent and could take place at any moment. Could you (or someone else) explain to me how they show this...because as it is I see nothing to refute.
To conclude with the words again from the passage in 2 Thessalonians:
Someone might say this as a prophecy or in a message or in a letter as if it came from us. Do not let anyone fool you in any way. The Day of the Lord will not come until the turning away from God happens and the Man of Evil, who is on his way to hell, appears
There will be no pre-tribulation rapture.
Here is a quote form another person.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-8
That passage shows that Jesus only comes as a thief in the night to unbelievers. 'We' should not be surprised by his coming.
In a time of tribulation and Christian persecution and lawlessness - I can imagine that all those who didn't belief in Jesus would be very surprised (and alarmed!) by his coming. However we, who would be holding on to Jesus as our rock in times of trouble would not be surprised (or should not be surprised.)
However a secret rapture before any kind of tribulation started would surprise Christians
How can I reply to this?
The Bible addresses this very issue very clearly and unambiguously in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
Brothers and Sisters, we have something to say about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and the time when we will meet together with him. Do not become easily upset in your thinking or afraid if you hear that the day of the Lord has already come. Someone might say this as a prophecy or in a message or in a letter as if it came from us. Do not let anyone fool you in any way. The Day of the Lord will not come until the turning away from God happens and the Man of Evil, who is on his way to hell, appears.
This means that we can quickly discount some Bible Verses used to support the pre-trib argument such as 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. In verse 16 it mentions 'The Lord himself will come down from heaven' - and we know from the previous Bible Verse in 2 Thessalonians that he will not come down until the tribulation happens.
In 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 passage - it mentions the trumpet sounding in verse 52. I don't think it unreasonable to assume that this is the same trumpet mentioned in the 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 passage in verse 16. the sound of the trumpet will herald Jesus' return. This again shows that the events described in 1 Corinthians are happening when Jesus returns - which he will not do until the tribulation happens.
The two strongest Bible verses which support the idea of a pre-trib rapture are 1 Thessalonians 5:9 and Revelation 3:10. The former says that 'God did not choose us to suffer his anger but to have salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.' However the inference from this that 'God will take all believers up into heaven before the tribulation starts' is weak and vague. It could just as easily mean that God's people will not suffer his anger in hell but will live in salvation in heaven. For the belief in a pre-trib rapture to be accepted - there must be more solid evidence.
So now we come to Revelation 3:10. At first glance it looks convincing. It says "So I will keep you from the time of trouble that will come to the whole world to test those who live on earth."
However, we have to look at the context. John was given seven different messages to seven specific churches. That text is part of one of those letters written specifically to the Church at Philadelphia - it was not written as a general prophecy to all believers - and as such cannot be taken to mean that we are all going to kept from the time of trouble.
As for the 'differences' between the rapture and the second coming:
1) At the Rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the Second Coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).
I don't see where you get that from at all. All the revelation passage says is: 'The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, were following him on white horses.' Again the inferred idea from this that 'Jesus will return to earth whereas before he stayed in the air' is weak and unconvincing.
(2) The Second Coming occurs after the great and terrible Tribulation (Revelation chapters 6-19). The Rapture occurs before the Tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
Well, I've already dealt with those two verses above.
(3) The Rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17; 5:9). The Second Coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).
I find myself agreeing with Mr Gentleman. This is definitely a 'copy and paste' post. These verses don't say anything like what 'you' claim they do - something you would know if this was your own work. The given Matthew passage merely talks about what happens. It does not describe in any way why it happens or what the purpose of it is - and it does not say that this is because of an act of judgement.
4) The Rapture will be “secret” and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The Second Coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).
The Corinthians passage does not ever claim that was is happening will be secret and hidden. Paul says 'But Look! I tell you this secret' - and goes on to say what will happen - but he does not claim that it will actually be hidden and secret when it actually happens. He describes it as a secret he will tell to them because it is about the future and it is therefore a secret to the people in the present.
(5) The Second Coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6-18). The Rapture is imminent, it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).
I have looked at the Titus passage, the Thessalonians passage and the Corinthians passage and I cannot see where it says in any of them that the rapture is imminent and could take place at any moment. Could you (or someone else) explain to me how they show this...because as it is I see nothing to refute.
To conclude with the words again from the passage in 2 Thessalonians:
Someone might say this as a prophecy or in a message or in a letter as if it came from us. Do not let anyone fool you in any way. The Day of the Lord will not come until the turning away from God happens and the Man of Evil, who is on his way to hell, appears
There will be no pre-tribulation rapture.
Here is a quote form another person.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-8
That passage shows that Jesus only comes as a thief in the night to unbelievers. 'We' should not be surprised by his coming.
In a time of tribulation and Christian persecution and lawlessness - I can imagine that all those who didn't belief in Jesus would be very surprised (and alarmed!) by his coming. However we, who would be holding on to Jesus as our rock in times of trouble would not be surprised (or should not be surprised.)
However a secret rapture before any kind of tribulation started would surprise Christians
How can I reply to this?