Scriptural position on abortion

[Resting In Him]

By J. Grant Swank, Jr.
MichNews.com
Jul 17, 2006

"Before I was born the LORD called me; from my birth he has made mention of my name...and now the LORD says--he who formed me in the womb to be his servant..." (Isaiah 49:1, 5).

"The word of the LORD came to me, saying, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations" (Jeremiah 1:4-5).


The Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice is a misnomer and theological contradiction, that is, if defined in biblical terms.

Yet the hoax continues. With that, the group denounces recently President Bush’s administration health care policies as "extreme".

Perhaps some religious persons are duped by the organization's fabrication. But the truly biblically knowledgeable know a lie when they hear a lie.

Cont'd... (http://www.michnews.com/artman/publish/article_13446.shtml)

[Ransom]

The representation of those who are pro-abortion as "womb baby killers" or which ever moniker some would place on people with such view points, is as inaccurate as saying those that are anti-abortion are in this fight just to take away women's reproductive rights. This is obviously a foolish statement.
This is clearly a very passionate debate, but I think the pro-life crowd does itsself a disservice by labeling their opponents "baby-killers" as if that were their agenda. The same disservice is accomplished by those in the pro-choice crowd by labeling their opponents "anti-choice". Try to remember that those on both sides are human beings, created by God, who have just as much stake in His grace (and by association, our grace- this is very important) as anyone else. Let's not be so childish as to diminish this to a name-calling contest. I assume God would want His ambassadors to be civil.

[WhiteH2OWoman]

Amen, Ransom.

We are called to rebuke and to be righteous, but we are also called to do it with love. Let's take the high road, the one the Lord wants us on, and be civil.

[RedemptionNigh]

I have to disagree with ransom and whitey, labeling them baby-killers is not only accurate, but necessary. It is necessary to display the entire reason that their actions and beliefs are purely evil. It reminds those with their eyes open what is really going on and it can hopefully serve as a wake-up call to those with their eyes shut. I would agree with you ransom if either A) The baby-killers did not kill babies or if B) Calling someone exactly and plainly what they are without using expletives or coarse language is suddenly "wrong" and "going too far."

[mustardseed]

:noidea A small creature with human features living in the womb is alive as defined by heart rate and brain function. After the abortion the small creature no longer has a heart rate or brain function, thus it is dead. A small creature with human features is called a baby.

It may not make the people responsible for ending the life of the small creature with human features happy to be called "baby killers", that much is true.

[CJL]

Try to remember that those on both sides are human beings, created by God, who have just as much stake in His grace (and by association, our grace- this is very important) as anyone else.I think you forgot that God is on the Baby's side as well. Lets not forget what this debate is all about. When you do boil it down, it is about killing one of God's created humans. Of course there is going to be passion.

YBIC,
CJL

[Ransom]

I have to disagree with ransom and whitey, labeling them baby-killers is not only accurate, but necessary. It is necessary to display the entire reason that their actions and beliefs are purely evil. It reminds those with their eyes open what is really going on and it can hopefully serve as a wake-up call to those with their eyes shut. I would agree with you ransom if either A) The baby-killers did not kill babies or if B) Calling someone exactly and plainly what they are without using expletives or coarse language is suddenly "wrong" and "going too far."
Like I previously posted, calling people on the pro-choice side of this issue "baby killers" is completely misrepresenting them. It makes them appear to be very evil people that can't wait until another infant/fetus is mutilated and dies. You might as well try to portray them celebrating while you're at it.
I understand that ending a life is considered by some to be murder, and it definitely breaks my heart. However, I am not about to label anyone a "baby-killer" for being on that side of the argument because they're not championing the deaths of infants. They're trying to preserve the rights of women, which are still somewhat unequal and usually very fragile (this being said, I am not a woman and am less than qualified than most to comment on these issues, but here I am anyway).
The other side of this pertains to the women who have had abortions, who have made that difficult decision, and have to live with that. Some might not care, but it would surprise me if that were anything but a small minority. I, personally, am not at peace with adding insult to injury in this situation. It's much too complicated already, and calling someone a murderer does nothing for the child that's already dead, and show's no grace or compassion.

[Ransom]

:noidea A small creature with human features living in the womb is alive as defined by heart rate and brain function. After the abortion the small creature no longer has a heart rate or brain function, thus it is dead. A small creature with human features is called a baby.

It may not make the people responsible for ending the life of the small creature with human features happy to be called "baby killers", that much is true.
This issue is not as black and white as you're making it out to be. There is more involved than just the infant. Please don't confuse this with me defending abortion, as I'm not. I am opposed to the death of anything innocent.
However, Christians tend to try to look at most issues in black and white. We like the us vs. them, in or out, saved or unsaved, heaven or hell outlook, but we're mislead when we look at most issues this way. Most things are not that simple.

[OwnedByJesus]

This issue is not as black and white as you're making it out to be. There is more involved than just the infant. Please don't confuse this with me defending abortion, as I'm not. I am opposed to the death of anything innocent.
However, Christians tend to try to look at most issues in black and white. We like the us vs. them, in or out, saved or unsaved, heaven or hell outlook, but we're mislead when we look at most issues this way. Most things are not that simple.

And the other side of caution is conformity to the world or even watering down what is wrong so as not to overly offend.

Being a light in the world is to reveal what is wrong/evil. And that which is exposed in the light is not a pretty thing, hence it being done is the 'dark' or in secret.

[Slappi]

This issue is not as black and white as you're making it out to be. There is more involved than just the infant. Please don't confuse this with me defending abortion, as I'm not. I am opposed to the death of anything innocent.
However, Christians tend to try to look at most issues in black and white. We like the us vs. them, in or out, saved or unsaved, heaven or hell outlook, but we're mislead when we look at most issues this way. Most things are not that simple.


There is no reason to kill a baby yet they kill them. Therefore they are baby-killers. Murderers. Killing babies for convenience and money.

A woman's right has nothing to do with an abortion.

[Ransom]

No one is talking about conformity or watering down anything, especially in order to not offend. I'm talking about love and compassion in a very dire situation. There is a MAJOR difference.
A lot of times, things need to be hashed out between and individual and God, and we are only to point them to Him. God is judge, we are not. Love is our command.

[carmen]

The title of this article was unnecessarily provacative, IMHO, contributing little to the actual discussion of the issue but rather appealing to emotion to win the argument :sigh

Accordingly, I have changed the title here. Applying biblical principles and scriptures to the right and wrong of abortion is enough to show God's side. When we do that, we allow God to do His work through His word.

[mustardseed]

This issue is not as black and white as you're making it out to be. There is more involved than just the infant. Please don't confuse this with me defending abortion, as I'm not. I am opposed to the death of anything innocent.
However, Christians tend to try to look at most issues in black and white. We like the us vs. them, in or out, saved or unsaved, heaven or hell outlook, but we're mislead when we look at most issues this way. Most things are not that simple. Actually, I do find the issue that black and white on a personal level. I am a woman, and have been pregnant and given birth twice, to children who are now adults. From that vantage point, I cannot agree with you that someone who aborts a child has no other option. And, again on a personal level, I believe that the woman who is so misled will find bitter, bitter regret when she later realizes what she has done.

I have nothing but sympathy and an aching heart for someone who listened to the lies of the world and had an abortion for convenience. And most abortions are for convenience, I do not lump in someone who has a medical procedure when the baby is already dead, or when the pregnancy will kill a woman who has other children for whom she must live. If seeing one of those new ultrasounds, or hearing the words "baby killer" makes even one woman stop and reflect, then turn away from doing this, then all the hurt feelings in the world don't matter a hill of beans to me.

[andy]

Yes, abortion is wrong. Abortion is a sin. But so was my adultery, lying, cheating, getting drunk, hurting people for no reason, etc. etc.

By all means speak the truth, but remember my brothers and sisters, our righteousness is in Jesus, not the stones we throw. And yes, I can be as guilty as anyone else forgetting that I was once deep into sin, without Christ on my way to hell.

Tell the truth, but temper your words with compassion and the love of Christ. He has compassion on us, can we do any less?

Do not water down the message of sin, repentance, and salvation....no, never! Tell them Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life....yes, yes always!
Tell them that the wages of sin is death, tell them!
Never, Never compromise the truth.......our Lord never did, but He had compassion on the sinner. Can we do less?

The truth does cut like a knife, but let the cut be a wound that heals not a wound that destroys.

[Ransom]

And the other side of caution is conformity to the world or even watering down what is wrong so as not to overly offend.

Being a light in the world is to reveal what is wrong/evil. And that which is exposed in the light is not a pretty thing, hence it being done is the 'dark' or in secret.
Being a light in the world does not mean exposing wrong/evil. That is the Source's job. As a light, or better said, a reflection (like a mirror reflecting a beam of light) we are to point back to the source. We are to expose people to the source. We are to reflect God, who in turn will expose what He needs to expose. That is not our job. We are to be a beacon and a guide, not God Himself. Matthew 5: 14-16, Luke 2: 29-32 and 11: 33-36, as well as Acts 13: 44-48 makes this pretty clear. These passages (nor any others I could find pertaining to being light) never make the point that we are to expose sin as light. Our job is love.

[Ransom]

Actually, I do find the issue that black and white on a personal level. I am a woman, and have been pregnant and given birth twice, to children who are now adults. From that vantage point, I cannot agree with you that someone who aborts a child has no other option. And, again on a personal level, I believe that the woman who is so misled will find bitter, bitter regret when she later realizes what she has done.

I have nothing but sympathy and an aching heart for someone who listened to the lies of the world and had an abortion for convenience. And most abortions are for convenience, I do not lump in someone who has a medical procedure when the baby is already dead, or when the pregnancy will kill a woman who has other children for whom she must live. If seeing one of those new ultrasounds, or hearing the words "baby killer" makes even one woman stop and reflect, then turn away from doing this, then all the hurt feelings in the world don't matter a hill of beans to me.
First, I never made the statement or case that abortion is the only option in any and all scenarios. I would disagree with that statement completely, were it made by someone.
I agree with you that most abortions are not thought through completely and end up the majority of the time happening for convenience. However, would it not be much better to show love, show light, educate on life and the respect and reverance it deserves rather than throw around a phrase like "baby killer", which is certainly detestable to someone in that position, as it is already a very terrible and sometimes a very desperate situation in which one finds onesself in the first place? Doesn't the phrase make the gap of us vs. them, which is the lens through which this debate is viewed most of the time already, much bigger- in the end making the side that we truly want to reach, unreachable?
Also, if a woman has an abortion, what can be done once the child is dead? Can picketing, screaming, assault, bombs, rejection and hatred bring the baby back? Do these things not damage the life that is still with us in that woman? Will this woman not eventuall face the truth about the decision, and most certainly in the company of her Creator? What then should our stance be? "Love others"? Compassion? Grace? Absolutely.
I'm all for the preservation and protection and value of life, but I stand by the statement that this is not a black and white issue.

[sracer]

I have to disagree with ransom and whitey, labeling them baby-killers is not only accurate, but necessary. It is necessary to display the entire reason that their actions and beliefs are purely evil. It reminds those with their eyes open what is really going on and it can hopefully serve as a wake-up call to those with their eyes shut. I would agree with you ransom if either A) The baby-killers did not kill babies or if B) Calling someone exactly and plainly what they are without using expletives or coarse language is suddenly "wrong" and "going too far."
The choice of the phrase "baby killer" is meant to condemn that person while "elevating" the speaker to a "higher level" (because THEY aren't killing babies, so therefore they are better).

If you want to parade your moral superiority, then "baby killer" is a great term to use. But if you want to engage the person in a dialog, explain to them why abortion is murder, then you'll need to find a different term that won't cause them to immediately become defensive.

[Mailman Dan]

The Evidence bible had a straight foward answer...

What God’s Word Says About Abortion
By Lynn Copeland

God speaks very clearly in the Bible on the value of unborn children. God’s Word says that He personally made each one of us, and has a plan for each life:

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart" (Jeremiah 1:5).

"Even before I was born, God had chosen me to be His" (Galatians 1:15).

"For You created my inmost being; You knit me together in my mother’s womb . . . Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in Your book before one of them came to be" (Psalm 139:13, 16). "Your hands shaped me and made me . . . Did You not clothe me with skin and flesh and knit me together with bones and sinews? You gave me life" (Job 10:8–12).

"This is what the Lord says—He who made you, who formed you in the womb" (Isaiah 44:2).

"Did not He who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same One form us both within our mothers?" (Job 31:15).

Because man is made in God’s own image (Genesis 1:27), each life is of great value to God: "Children are a gift from God" (Psalm 127:3). He even calls our children His own: "You took your sons and daughters whom you bore to Me and sacrificed them...You slaughtered My children" (Ezekiel 16:20,21). The Bible says of our Creator, "In His hand is the life of every living thing and the breath of every human being" (Job 12:10). God, the giver of life, commands us not to take the life of an innocent person: "Do not shed innocent blood" (Jeremiah 7:6); "Cursed is the man who accepts a bribe to kill an innocent person" (Deuteronomy 27:25). "You shall not murder" (Exodus 20:13). Taking the life of the unborn is clearly murder—"He didn’t kill me in the womb, with my mother as my grave" (Jeremiah 20:17)— and God vowed to punish those who "ripped open the women with child" (Amos 1:13).

The unborn child was granted equal protection in the law; if he lost his life, the one who caused his death must lose his own life: "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined . . .But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life" (Exodus 21:22,23). Life is a gift created by God, and is not to be taken away by abortion. God is "prochoice," but He tells us clearly the only acceptable choice to make: "I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live" (Deuteronomy 30:19).

How would you respond in these situations?

1. A preacher and his wife are very, very poor. They already have 14 kids. Now she finds out she’s pregnant with the 15th. They’re living in tremendous poverty. Considering their poverty and the excessive world population, would you consider recommending she get an abortion?

2. The father is sick with sniffles, the mother has TB. Of their four children, the first is blind, the second has died, the third is deaf, the fourth has TB. She finds she’s pregnant again. Given this extreme situation, would you consider recommending abortion?

3. A white man raped a 13-year-old black girl and she’s now pregnant. If you were her parents, would you consider recommending abortion?

4. A teenage girl is pregnant. She’s not married. Her fiancé is not the father of the baby, and he’s upset. Would you recommend abortion?

In the first case, you would have killed John Wesley, one of the great evangelists in the 19th century. In the second case, you would have killed Beethoven. In the third case, you would have killed Ethel Waters, the great black gospel singer. If you said yes to the fourth case, you would have declared the murder of Jesus Christ!

God is the author of life, and He has givenevery single individual supreme value. Each life—whether inside or outside the womb—should therefore be valued by us. God knows the plans He has for each individual and has written in His book all the days ordained for us before one of them came to be. When we presume to know better than God who should be given life, we are putting ourselves in the place of God and are guilty of idolatry.

Dan~~~>doesn't see any need to argue

[Ponderin]

How would you respond in these situations?

1. A preacher and his wife are very, very poor. They already have 14 kids. Now she finds out she’s pregnant with the 15th. They’re living in tremendous poverty. Considering their poverty and the excessive world population, would you consider recommending she get an abortion?

2. The father is sick with sniffles, the mother has TB. Of their four children, the first is blind, the second has died, the third is deaf, the fourth has TB. She finds she’s pregnant again. Given this extreme situation, would you consider recommending abortion?

3. A white man raped a 13-year-old black girl and she’s now pregnant. If you were her parents, would you consider recommending abortion?

4. A teenage girl is pregnant. She’s not married. Her fiancé is not the father of the baby, and he’s upset. Would you recommend abortion?

In the first case, you would have killed John Wesley, one of the great evangelists in the 19th century. In the second case, you would have killed Beethoven. In the third case, you would have killed Ethel Waters, the great black gospel singer. If you said yes to the fourth case, you would have declared the murder of Jesus Christ!

God is the author of life, and He has givenevery single individual supreme value. Each life—whether inside or outside the womb—should therefore be valued by us. God knows the plans He has for each individual and has written in His book all the days ordained for us before one of them came to be. When we presume to know better than God who should be given life, we are putting ourselves in the place of God and are guilty of idolatry.




How would you respond in this situation?


5. A teenage girl is pregnant. She’s not married. Her "boy friend" is the father of the baby, and they are clueless . . . They will marry will be dirt poor and live like hell . . . and get a divorce.


Would you recommend abortion?

[Resting In Him]

The title of this article was unnecessarily provacative, IMHO, contributing little to the actual discussion of the issue but rather appealing to emotion to win the argument :sigh

Accordingly, I have changed the title here. Applying biblical principles and scriptures to the right and wrong of abortion is enough to show God's side. When we do that, we allow God to do His work through His word.

Carmen, I've been contemplating your observations and decision to change the title and in the final analysis I would have to say I agree with your wisdom and I thank you for your actions. :hug

[CJL]

How would you respond in this situation?


5. A teenage girl is pregnant. She’s not married. Her "boy friend" is the father of the baby, and they are clueless . . . They will marry will be dirt poor and live like hell . . . and get a divorce.


Would you recommend abortion?I would recommend the teenage girl have the baby, then give it up for adoption if they felt they could not provide for the child.

YBIC,
CJL

[carmen]

Carmen, I've been contemplating your observations and decision to change the title and in the final analysis I would have to say I agree with your wisdom and I thank you for your actions. :hug:hug I probably should have made clear that the title of the thread was the same as the article and not your selection. My apologies! I didn't even think of that possible perception until now :doh

[Resting In Him]

:hug I probably should have made clear that the title of the thread was the same as the article and not your selection. My apologies! I didn't even think of that possible perception until now :doh

It never occurred to me either Carmen, but I appreciate your concern.

And by the way, your insights/discernments along with so many other mods and posters are a gift to all of us. I love the fellowship in this community of watchers. :):

[My Abba's Child]

Actually, I do find the issue that black and white on a personal level. I am a woman, and have been pregnant and given birth twice, to children who are now adults. From that vantage point, I cannot agree with you that someone who aborts a child has no other option. And, again on a personal level, I believe that the woman who is so misled will find bitter, bitter regret when she later realizes what she has done.

I have nothing but sympathy and an aching heart for someone who listened to the lies of the world and had an abortion for convenience. And most abortions are for convenience, I do not lump in someone who has a medical procedure when the baby is already dead, or when the pregnancy will kill a woman who has other children for whom she must live. If seeing one of those new ultrasounds, or hearing the words "baby killer" makes even one woman stop and reflect, then turn away from doing this, then all the hurt feelings in the world don't matter a hill of beans to me.

Agreed. I am a woman and a mother as well (of 4). Let's not forget that the majority of women having abortions were active participants in the CONCEPTION of that child. The majority of women having abortions KNEW that active participation could conceive a child. Therefore, their right of "choice" should have taken place BEFORE the active participation in the act that produced the conception of the child. This has been my belief even BEFORE I believed in God, the Bible, or anything else of a "religious" nature (before I was saved). People are FORGETTING that little bit of freedom of choice that women have and just thinking of what their rights should be AFTER... flawed logic, folks.

In His love,

[My Abba's Child]

How would you respond in this situation?


5. A teenage girl is pregnant. She’s not married. Her "boy friend" is the father of the baby, and they are clueless . . . They will marry will be dirt poor and live like hell . . . and get a divorce.


Would you recommend abortion?

Would YOU recommend abortion? In that case, I wouldn't be here because that was EXACTLY my parents' position at my conception and birth. They divorced when I was 3, we lived in a tar paper shack that my father built on his parents' farm. After that, my mom and I lived in the house that my grandfather's grandfather built with no electricity and no running water (yep... I had an active outhouse. hehe) So... would you condemn me to death before I was born? :fear :D:

In His love,

[Ponderin]

Would YOU recommend abortion? In that case, I wouldn't be here because that was EXACTLY my parents' position at my conception and birth. They divorced when I was 3, we lived in a tar paper shack that my father built on his parents' farm. After that, my mom and I lived in the house that my grandfather's grandfather built with no electricity and no running water (yep... I had an active outhouse. hehe) So... would you condemn me to death before I was born? :fear :D:

In His love,




No, but I have met ppl online who said they would have done that in my situation. AND That I should have. But only on line. And not at this site. Evenso, I suspect admins here are much nicer if it were said than I would be. :lol

:tape

Neways, In the above case, I would have killed Rachel and never witnessed the miracle of birth of my Grand child. No, we are not "famous people" or anyone you prolly ever heard of. My daughter would prolly make the boys in grade school eat outhouse dirt, if available, if they wanted to be in her club. I was certainly no goody two shoes either. But we are special in His site just the same.


:):


God is the author of life, and He has givenevery single individual supreme value. Each life—whether inside or outside the womb—should therefore be valued by us. God knows the plans He has for each individual and has written in His book all the days ordained for us before one of them came to be. When we presume to know better than God who should be given life, we are putting ourselves in the place of God and are guilty of idolatry.

[mustardseed]

The choice of the phrase "baby killer" is meant to condemn that person while "elevating" the speaker to a "higher level" (because THEY aren't killing babies, so therefore they are better).

If you want to parade your moral superiority, then "baby killer" is a great term to use. But if you want to engage the person in a dialog, explain to them why abortion is murder, then you'll need to find a different term that won't cause them to immediately become defensive. I make the assumption here that you (personally) are using "you" to denote the general "anyone" rather than me personally. I have never called anyone a baby killer, nor would I. However, what do you (personally) say to someone to convince her not to abort, or to a doctor to convince him/her to not perform abortions, that does not make them defensive?

[OwnedByJesus]

No one is talking about conformity or watering down anything, especially in order to not offend. I'm talking about love and compassion in a very dire situation. There is a MAJOR difference.
A lot of times, things need to be hashed out between and individual and God, and we are only to point them to Him. God is judge, we are not. Love is our command.

Well stated. :):

[Ransom]

Thank you. :):

[sracer]

I make the assumption here that you (personally) are using "you" to denote the general "anyone" rather than me personally. I have never called anyone a baby killer, nor would I. However, what do you (personally) say to someone to convince her not to abort, or to a doctor to convince him/her to not perform abortions, that does not make them defensive?
Why would you even assume that I was referring to you? I was responding directly to RedemptionNigh.

sheesh! Does EVERYTHING have to be about YOU?! :lol (just kidding!)

[mustardseed]

Why would you even assume that I was referring to you? I was responding directly to RedemptionNigh.

sheesh! Does EVERYTHING have to be about YOU?! :lol (just kidding!) :pout Now I feel left out . . .

j/k :D:

[HeartlandGal]

There is a huge misconception about womens rights vs abortion. That I can tell some here have been decieved by.

A women is not eating a sandwich and then suddenly finding herself pregnant. It really doesn't work that way. In the most common situations in our society, the woman chooses to engage in an activity that puts her at a very high risk of becoming pregnant (eating a sandwich is not that activity). The majority of abortions done today were done on women who choose the activity that put her in the postion to become pregnant.

Her right to choose was not taken from her. She made her choice. If a woman never wants to be put in the postion of having a living growing child inside of her, then that choice could of been easily made and the outcome easily prevented. Pregnancy is a consequence to an action.

The bible teaches us often about consequences. From an entire family paying the consequence because the father stole a few items. To a husband and wife being struck dead for lying.

Often times we saw Jesus calling things what they were "brood of vipers" for example, although I am sure some people will say maybe he should of been more loving. However, he was being very loving by speaking the truth and not trying to let what was culturally or commonly accepted prevent him from teaching the truth.

I don't care how you sugar coat it. Abortion is the samething as murder. It is black and white. Abortion = baby killing. Call it what it is, speak the truth. The women are not the victums in this. They made their choice.

[Ransom]

There is a huge misconception about womens rights vs abortion. That I can tell some here have been decieved by.

A women is not eating a sandwich and then suddenly finding herself pregnant. It really doesn't work that way. In the most common situations in our society, the woman chooses to engage in an activity that puts her at a very high risk of becoming pregnant (eating a sandwich is not that activity). The majority of abortions done today were done on women who choose the activity that put her in the postion to become pregnant.

Her right to choose was not taken from her. She made her choice. If a woman never wants to be put in the postion of having a living growing child inside of her, then that choice could of been easily made and the outcome easily prevented. Pregnancy is a consequence to an action.

The bible teaches us often about consequences. From an entire family paying the consequence because the father stole a few items. To a husband and wife being struck dead for lying.

Often times we saw Jesus calling things what they were "brood of vipers" for example, although I am sure some people will say maybe he should of been more loving. However, he was being very loving by speaking the truth and not trying to let what was culturally or commonly accepted prevent him from teaching the truth.

I don't care how you sugar coat it. Abortion is the samething as murder. It is black and white. Abortion = baby killing. Call it what it is, speak the truth. The women are not the victums in this. They made their choice.
And so the old question goes: What about rape, incest, or protecting the mother's life? These questions have become rhetorical, but they prove that this is not a black and white issue. Part of the issue is black and white, but the entire issue is incredibly complicated. The pro-choice side of the debate is trying to protect the personal reprorductive rights of women. Essentially, banning the right to abortion is banning the right to remove tape worms and cancer as both of those act like parasites. Infants are, essentially, parasites before they're born. This sounds harsh (however the evil that is usually associated with such a word is not intended in this context), but think about it.
To clarify, I am not in favor of abortion. I am very much in the corner of respecting life, revering its creation, and protecting it at all costs. But I take issue with people calling this a black and white issue, and also with the bigoty, hatred, and refusal to listen (on both sides) that follows wherever this debate goes.

[HeartlandGal]

And so the old question goes: What about rape, incest, or protecting the mother's life? These questions have become rhetorical, but they prove that this is not a black and white issue. Part of the issue is black and white, but the entire issue is incredibly complicated. The pro-choice side of the debate is trying to protect the personal reprorductive rights of women. Essentially, banning the right to abortion is banning the right to remove tape worms and cancer as both of those act like parasites. Infants are, essentially, parasites before they're born. This sounds harsh (however the evil that is usually associated with such a word is not intended in this context), but think about it.
To clarify, I am not in favor of abortion. I am very much in the corner of respecting life, revering its creation, and protecting it at all costs. But I take issue with people calling this a black and white issue, and also with the bigoty, hatred, and refusal to listen (on both sides) that follows wherever this debate goes.

Most abortions today are done for women who choose to have sex and got pregnant. It's not a reproductive rights issue. If you passed laws preventing women from having sex then it is a reproductive rights issue. Once a woman is pregnant she has already reproduced. It's a well known fact that sexual intercourse is the number one leading cause of pregnancy.

Cases of rape and incest rarely cause pregnancy and when they do, the options of adoption is always there. I have to disagree that an embroy is a parasite any more than a person on a feeding tube is. It's dependency on another does not make it not a human being or less of a human being. Our society wants us to believe that, but there are many lies society wants us to accept.

Ending a life (no matter how small) no matter what reason, is choosing to kill another human. It doesn't matter if it is in the case of rape and incest, it doesn't matter if a woman wanted to have sex but not get pregnant. It's still the choice to end the life of another human being.

I guess to me, there are absolutes. One being that no one goes to the Father except through the Son. Christ is the only path for eternal life with God. I will die for that absolute. Another being, the murder of an innocent human life, no matter how small is never the right thing to do, no matter the situation. It's an absolute.

[Ransom]

Most abortions today are done for women who choose to have sex and got pregnant. It's not a reproductive rights issue. If you passed laws preventing women from having sex then it is a reproductive rights issue. Once a woman is pregnant she has already reproduced. It's a well known fact that sexual intercourse is the number one leading cause of pregnancy.

Cases of rape and incest rarely cause pregnancy and when they do, the options of adoption is always there. I have to disagree that an embroy is a parasite any more than a person on a feeding tube is. It's dependency on another does not make it not a human being or less of a human being. Our society wants us to believe that, but there are many lies society wants us to accept.

Ending a life (no matter how small) no matter what reason, is choosing to kill another human. It doesn't matter if it is in the case of rape and incest, it doesn't matter if a woman wanted to have sex but not get pregnant. It's still the choice to end the life of another human being.

I guess to me, there are absolutes. One being that no one goes to the Father except through the Son. Christ is the only path for eternal life with God. I will die for that absolute. Another being, the murder of an innocent human life, no matter how small is never the right thing to do, no matter the situation. It's an absolute.
In your first paragraph you start with the word most. Most is the key word. Most, but not all abortions stem from consentual sex. This implies there are sometimes some extenuating (complicated) circumstances.
The option of adoption is always there, you're correct, and I'm all for it- but put yourself in the victim's shoes. Things change drastically after a rape. More drastically that I can probably even wrap my mind around. I don't know that I wouldn't consider abortion myself in that position. That said, I'm a man, so again, I don't have the perspective you probably do on the issue. That I will conceed.
In the essential sense of the word, babies are parasites before they're born. This is true. It's not meant to diminish the life inside them, their mothers, or anything like that, but it is true. A feeding tube is a different story, as that person on the feeding tube is not feeding directly off another human being for life. Babies in the womb do.
A woman who has given birth has reporduced, but a woman who is pregnant has only conceived. A woman who has a miscarriage, an abortion, or a still-birth has not reproduced.
I agree with your absolutes 100%. However, despite the absolutes in the situation, the fact remains that this is a complicated issue. This is the point I've been trying to make all along. I'm not, not advocating abortion- only presenting other sides to the issue to inspire compassion.

[PreTribber]

In your first paragraph you start with the word most. Most is the key word. Most, but not all abortions stem from consentual sex. This implies there are sometimes some extenuating (complicated) circumstances.
The option of adoption is always there, you're correct, and I'm all for it- but put yourself in the victim's shoes. Things change drastically after a rape. More drastically that I can probably even wrap my mind around. I don't know that I wouldn't consider abortion myself in that position. That said, I'm a man, so again, I don't have the perspective you probably do on the issue. That I will conceed.
In the essential sense of the word, babies are parasites before they're born. This is true. It's not meant to diminish the life inside them, their mothers, or anything like that, but it is true. A feeding tube is a different story, as that person on the feeding tube is not feeding directly off another human being for life. Babies in the womb do.
A woman who has given birth has reporduced, but a woman who is pregnant has only conceived. A woman who has a miscarriage, an abortion, or a still-birth has not reproduced.
I agree with your absolutes 100%. However, despite the absolutes in the situation, the fact remains that this is a complicated issue. This is the point I've been trying to make all along. I'm not, not advocating abortion- only presenting other sides to the issue to inspire compassion.
Ransom, if you want to present other sides to this issue, take it to Apolo. Failure to do so will result in a warning.

Oh, and BTW, the Bible tells us children are a gift of the Lord. He doesn't call them parasites. :tsk And life begins at conception.

[Ransom]

Ransom, if you want to present other sides to this issue, take it to Apolo. Failure to do so will result in a warning.

Oh, and BTW, the Bible tells us children are a gift of the Lord. He doesn't call them parasites. :tsk And life begins at conception.
I must be missing something. If I don't start the thread, but have something to say about it to the contrary, then the thread should be moved to another appropriate board? Aren't I just following the conversation? I'm very unclear on the rules. If you could give me an example as to where I deviated from the original topic, I would appreciate it so that I could prevent future problems. I hope this doesn't come across as rude, I'm simply trying to clarify as I am very lost.
I also believe that children are a gift from the Lord. I understand the connotation that comes with the word "parasite" is usually a negative one. I mean to use only the word as definition, and throw out the connotation altogether in this context. Children are not blood-sucking, life-draining annoyances. They're wonderful (most of the time ;): ) but truly a baby in the womb fits the description of parasite. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasite Does this make more sense?

[PreTribber]

I must be missing something. If I don't start the thread, but have something to say about it to the contrary, then the thread should be moved to another appropriate board? Aren't I just following the conversation? I'm very unclear on the rules. If you could give me an example as to where I deviated from the original topic, I would appreciate it so that I could prevent future problems. I hope this doesn't come across as rude, I'm simply trying to clarify as I am very lost.
I also believe that children are a gift from the Lord. I understand the connotation that comes with the word "parasite" is usually a negative one. I mean to use only the word as definition, and throw out the connotation altogether in this context. Children are not blood-sucking, life-draining annoyances. They're wonderful (most of the time ;): ) but truly a baby in the womb fits the description of parasite. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasite Does this make more sense?
If you have something to say contrary to what the topic [belief or Scriptural position] of this or any thread is, especially when it is contrary to the views of this Board, then you take that comment and open a thread in Apolo. Topics opened outside of Apolo are usually done so as to not have to 'defend' from opposing or contrary views. We do not move threads based on any one persons opposing view just to accomodate them in order that they can continue to post said view in the thread.

As to the parasite thing, no it doesn't make more sense as applied to human beings who are created in the image of God, and you can argue that in Apolo as well. Jesus was not a "parasite" when He was in the womb.

[Persuaded]

From Ransom. "A woman who has a miscarriage, an abortion, or a still-birth has not reproduced."

I beg to differ - I've miscarried twice and I have "reproduced" two beautiful children. They may not be physically present with me but they are present with the Lord. A little compassion for those of us in this situation, it is very hard even years later....

Regarding the use of "parasite"

From the Wikpedia parasite link....

Parasitism is an interaction between two organisms, in which one organism (the parasite) benefits and the other (the host) is harmed, though usually without killing the host.

And then a definition of parasite....

Main Entry: parasite
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: leech
Synonyms: bacteria, barnacle, beat, bloodsucker*, bootlicker*, brownie, brownnose, deadbeat*, dependent, flunky, freeloader*, fungus, gremlin, groupie*, hanger-on*, hose, idler, lackey, laze, leaner, leech, lounge lizard, scrounger, sideman, slave, sponge*, sponger, stooge*, sucker*, sycophant, taker*, yes-man
Antonyms: host
Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.2.1)

[Ponderin]

a baby in the womb fits the description of parasite. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasite Does this make more sense?

Nope.



As to the parasite thing, no it doesn't make more sense as applied to human beings who are created in the image of God, and you can argue that in Apolo as well. Jesus was not a "parasite" when He was in the womb.



Sounds like a double jointed, convoluted, high, sounding argument to me too.

:thumb :thumb



3 reasons why we must not be silent

1. It is a matter of life. According to science life begins at conception. Living human cells, in a continuing process of development 46 chromosomes 23 by the father, 23 by the mother. The cell structure in the baby is a much part of the father as the mother.

Psalm 139:13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.


Jeremiah 1
5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."



Luke 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.


Proverbs 6
16 There are six things the LORD hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,

Romans 13
9The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet,"[1] and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."



Dr. Nathanson (sp?) resigned and said I am deeply troubled by my own increasing certainty that I had in fact resided over 60 thousand DEATHS. DOCTORS AND NURSEs HAD TOLD HIM OF NIGHTMARES AND PERSONALITY CHANGES THEY WERE EXPERIENCING . . .


2. A matter of love

This transgresses the golden rule

Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.


What mother would like to have been murdered BY BEING DISMEMBERED. What doctor would like to be trapped in a cell and had corrosive acid poured over his body and forced into his lungs and left for hours convulsing till he is dead What judge ripped out of his home and torn apart for no other reason than selfish ambition?

Abortion transgresses the golden rule.

Here is the mark of a society on it's last leg. That day, sadly, has come to America with this issue.

Romans 1:31___Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

We have come to an age that is without family love. A lack of affection towards ones own children. Abortion is a matter of selfishness in contrast to the word of God that teaches love. Abortion has become a matter of birth control for many who do not want to be bothered with children. The ultimate selfishness is the multi million abortion business There are doctors who are living in luxury off multi million dollar slaughter industry. every brick in the luxurious homes have been built with the fruits of their labor. The curse of God is on it.



Deuteronomy 27:25___Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen.



3. It is a matter of Logic.

There are those who have some double jointed, convoluted, high, sounding arguments. For instance, some say life begins with breathing? Life does not begin with breathing outside the womb because oxygen is part of that babies life in the womb.

What about those conceived out of rape or incest. Look at James Robinson he is alive and well living on purpose for Christ.

Are people who are defective supposed to be put to death? Who are we to play God? Where do we draw that line? Genocide, ethnic cleansing, euthanasia, a defective child born with no limbs? A woman's body is not always her own. The life in her is a guest in her womb wanted or unwanted.

If we say first of all the subject is a matter of life the logic follows we are not in charge of it.

What must we do? We need to be informed. We need to teach and preach sexual morality. We need have more compassion for the unwed mother. We do not need to be silent.

Isaiah

1 "Shout it aloud, do not hold back.
Raise your voice like a trumpet.
Declare to my people their rebellion
and to the house of Jacob their sins.






Refused to be swayed by the high sounding arguments the liberals, humanist and social planners and experts. What do they know? Who are they that God should ask for their counsel?

Isaiah 5
21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
and clever in their own sight.





Pray that God will send a spiritual revival.

2 Chronicles 7:14
if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.


Preach the glorious saving gospel of Jesus Christ. Thereby get people to know Christ as their personal Savior. The One Who changes the hearts and lives of people. The preachers of the gospel and the churches have failed. We once had an America under God.



Morality by majority is not the standard we are to live by. There is little wrong in America today that if we had a generation of preachers who will stand up and say "Thus saith the Lord" could not be turned around.

Above all, let us keep our knees on the floor and pray to Almighty God. God's grace is sufficient to cleanse any sin. There is no way an abortion . . . or any past sin for that matter can be undone but we can be forgiven, covered and cleansed under the blood of Jesus Christ.

The logic of the abortion industries continues to escape the logical rational unselfish godly mind.


For complete message, for a limited time only, see

The Sin of silence by Adrian Rogers (http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/love_worth_finding/archives.asp)


Disclaimer: All spelling and gramatical errors by Ponderin

[Ransom]

If you have something to say contrary to what the topic [belief or Scriptural position] of this or any thread is, especially when it is contrary to the views of this Board, then you take that comment and open a thread in Apolo. Topics opened outside of Apolo are usually done so as to not have to 'defend' from opposing or contrary views. We do not move threads based on any one persons opposing view just to accomodate them in order that they can continue to post said view in the thread.
Thanks for the clarification. That makes a LOT more sense now. I will abide.
Also, I hope I didn't sound accusatory or rude when I was trying to get a grasp on the contrary view point thing. I had a hunch that maybe things were set up so that threads of a certain nature were only to be discussed in the context of clarification/reenforcement. My hunch proved correct. Thanks for clearing that up. :):

[Ransom]

I beg to differ - I've miscarried twice and I have "reproduced" two beautiful children. They may not be physically present with me but they are present with the Lord. A little compassion for those of us in this situation, it is very hard even years later....
Apologies for offense. That is a tragedy that I would never try to be uncompassionate about. Forgive me if I seemed so.
What I said, I meant in the physical sense. I'll leave it at that.

As to the parasite issue, does the child in a woman's body do nothing but take from her, and in turn actually do her harm? It's incredibly hard on a woman's body to be pregnant. It's very taxing. Again, outside of the negative context (this is key as people seem to be over-looking this part), the definition still fits. The synonyms do not.

[Changes]

Thanks for the clarification. That makes a LOT more sense now. I will abide.
Also, I hope I didn't sound accusatory or rude when I was trying to get a grasp on the contrary view point thing. I had a hunch that maybe things were set up so that threads of a certain nature were only to be discussed in the context of clarification/reenforcement. My hunch proved correct. Thanks for clearing that up. :):

And yet you continue to post in this thread? :twitch

[Ransom]

And yet you continue to post in this thread? :twitch
Sorry, I was responding directly to someone's comment. Forget it. It doesn't really matter anyway as no one seems to be doing anything but reacting to what I say. I'll direct anymore responses to a new thread if need be: http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?p=3406608#post3406608

[RedemptionNigh]

The choice of the phrase "baby killer" is meant to condemn that person while "elevating" the speaker to a "higher level" (because THEY aren't killing babies, so therefore they are better).

If you want to parade your moral superiority, then "baby killer" is a great term to use. But if you want to engage the person in a dialog, explain to them why abortion is murder, then you'll need to find a different term that won't cause them to immediately become defensive.

I'll ignore the fact that you prejudiced me and elevated yourself as morally superior to my (implied) presumptious bigotry, other than mentioning it in this one sentence of course. Getting to the point, "if [I] want to find engage the person in a dialog . . . [I'll] need to find a different term . . ." Indeed, I would not use the term "baby-killer" when trying to persuade someone (individually) not to have an abortion. Agreed, it does illicit a defensive, knee-jerk reaction by those who have already chosen the baby-killing side. However I never intended for "baby-killer" to be used in that sense -- rather, in a labeling sense for that category of people collectively. I would never deny that I think of them and label them as baby-killers, and when addressing pro-life or fence-sitting audiences who have not chosen a side in the debate I would not refrain from using that label. When having a face-to-face discussion with a baby-killer however, I would try to avoid anything that might produce a knee-jerk reaction. Should that baby-killer blatantly ask me "Do you consider me a baby-killer?" I would of course blatantly respond "In light of the fact that you either kill babies or support/defend the killing of babies, yes."

[My Abba's Child]

I think that, as soon as Mr. Ransom looks into the face of his first born child things will become a bit more clear to him. :): For someone who has never experienced that moment of instant and completely total love for another human being (a parent seeing their child for the very first time), I can imagine this topic would be a little fuzzy for them.

Yes, an unborn baby (I refuse to use the term fetus, because this term is used by folks to diminish the fact that THAT'S a BABY they're talking about) is completely dependent on the mother for everything from the baby's oxygen supply to his/her food. HOWEVER, a true "parent" finds joy in this condition. Yes, it is hard on a woman's body, but face it,... our bodies were CREATED for this condition. I know that, with all 5 of my babies, I was completely bonded with that child WAY before I 'saw' him/her. In fact, my first pregnancy ended VERY early (the baby was only about 6 weeks gestation) in a miscarriage (yes, I'm fully aware that the medical profession calls this an early abortion :(:). However, I'd already known about this baby for close to a month (I found out I was pregnant VERY early and the baby actually died before I found out he/she had died) and I'd bonded with this precious little baby growing within me. I still, to this day, think about him/her quite a bit. My other children have been told that they have an older brother or sister waiting to meet them in heaven. If this child had lived, he/she would be 18 right now.... but you know... with a mother's heart, I pray that God will allow me, just for awhile anyway, experience holding, looking at, and bonding with him/her as an infant.... <oh boy... here I go again. :cry :lol >

I agree with Heartland Girl (I think it was her) when she said that we do indeed, even if the baby does not live to see birth, reproduced. The moment a sperm penetrates the shell of the ovum, entirely new DNA is formed, thus an entirely new creature is created... another life, another human being, a baby, is formed. That man and woman have DEFINITELY reproduced. It doesn't matter if that baby ever sees the light of day, that man and woman have reproduced themselves in that child. And, as Heartland Gal so eloquently pointed out, that baby, although not bodily present with his/her mother and father, he/she IS in the presence of the Lord--and, will be given a glorified body on that day we're all watching and longing for... His appearing! :clap

I can understand, however, how someone might see abortion as 'not black and white' if they've never experienced the kind of bonding that a mom experiences as she spends 9 months of her life knowing that there's a new and miraculous little life growing inside her... the excitement of feeling that first little movement, playing with those tiny little hands and feet when they kick and somersault around in there... and, I'm sure, it's exciting as well for a daddy who gets to finally feel the physical evidence of this life he keeps hearing about when he gets to do the same. And, that moment when, after all the work and pain are over and the baby is handed to a mom--at least this is MY experience--the pain is completely forgotten. I can never describe the pain of childbirth to anyone AFTER I've given birth... the ... forgive the term... rapture of the moment supercedes any memory of the pain it took to experience it! Looking into that precious little face, feeling him/her grab for and squeeze your finger, seeing his/her eyes gaze right into yours... there is NOTHING I can compare it to in this world. People who have abortions or perform them... I simply can't imagine them having ever had that experience.

And, as for women who conceive due to rape... I've known several of them who decided to allow the baby to develop and be born. Some give the baby up for adoption at birth, others decide to keep the baby... I've never heard of one who regretted allowing that baby to live. HOWEVER, I've heard MANY horror stories about women (well, some where women, others young girls) who had abortions who were tormented by their choices. Some heard babies crying all the time (even when no babies were present), others have such a great amount of guilt that they go into deep depressions, etc... Abortions also have been known to KILL THE WOMAN, abortions have been known to cause infertility even when the woman WISHES to be a mom, etc... and these numbers are quite high (I don't have exact figures, but we hear about it all the time, they've even done After-school Specials movies about it). It's not as gray an area as the "pro-choice" folks would like you to believe, either.

In His love,

[HeartlandGal]

I think that, as soon as Mr. Ransom looks into the face of his first born child things will become a bit more clear to him. :): For someone who has never experienced that moment of instant and completely total love for another human being (a parent seeing their child for the very first time), I can imagine this topic would be a little fuzzy for them.

Yes, an unborn baby (I refuse to use the term fetus, because this term is used by folks to diminish the fact that THAT'S a BABY they're talking about) is completely dependent on the mother for everything from the baby's oxygen supply to his/her food. HOWEVER, a true "parent" finds joy in this condition. Yes, it is hard on a woman's body, but face it,... our bodies were CREATED for this condition. I know that, with all 5 of my babies, I was completely bonded with that child WAY before I 'saw' him/her. In fact, my first pregnancy ended VERY early (the baby was only about 6 weeks gestation) in a miscarriage (yes, I'm fully aware that the medical profession calls this an early abortion :(:). However, I'd already known about this baby for close to a month (I found out I was pregnant VERY early and the baby actually died before I found out he/she had died) and I'd bonded with this precious little baby growing within me. I still, to this day, think about him/her quite a bit. My other children have been told that they have an older brother or sister waiting to meet them in heaven. If this child had lived, he/she would be 18 right now.... but you know... with a mother's heart, I pray that God will allow me, just for awhile anyway, experience holding, looking at, and bonding with him/her as an infant.... <oh boy... here I go again. :cry :lol >

I agree with Heartland Girl (I think it was her) when she said that we do indeed, even if the baby does not live to see birth, reproduced. The moment a sperm penetrates the shell of the ovum, entirely new DNA is formed, thus an entirely new creature is created... another life, another human being, a baby, is formed. That man and woman have DEFINITELY reproduced. It doesn't matter if that baby ever sees the light of day, that man and woman have reproduced themselves in that child. And, as Heartland Gal so eloquently pointed out, that baby, although not bodily present with his/her mother and father, he/she IS in the presence of the Lord--and, will be given a glorified body on that day we're all watching and longing for... His appearing! :clap

I can understand, however, how someone might see abortion as 'not black and white' if they've never experienced the kind of bonding that a mom experiences as she spends 9 months of her life knowing that there's a new and miraculous little life growing inside her... the excitement of feeling that first little movement, playing with those tiny little hands and feet when they kick and somersault around in there... and, I'm sure, it's exciting as well for a daddy who gets to finally feel the physical evidence of this life he keeps hearing about when he gets to do the same. And, that moment when, after all the work and pain are over and the baby is handed to a mom--at least this is MY experience--the pain is completely forgotten. I can never describe the pain of childbirth to anyone AFTER I've given birth... the ... forgive the term... rapture of the moment supercedes any memory of the pain it took to experience it! Looking into that precious little face, feeling him/her grab for and squeeze your finger, seeing his/her eyes gaze right into yours... there is NOTHING I can compare it to in this world. People who have abortions or perform them... I simply can't imagine them having ever had that experience.

And, as for women who conceive due to rape... I've known several of them who decided to allow the baby to develop and be born. Some give the baby up for adoption at birth, others decide to keep the baby... I've never heard of one who regretted allowing that baby to live. HOWEVER, I've heard MANY horror stories about women (well, some where women, others young girls) who had abortions who were tormented by their choices. Some heard babies crying all the time (even when no babies were present), others have such a great amount of guilt that they go into deep depressions, etc... Abortions also have been known to KILL THE WOMAN, abortions have been known to cause infertility even when the woman WISHES to be a mom, etc... and these numbers are quite high (I don't have exact figures, but we hear about it all the time, they've even done After-school Specials movies about it). It's not as gray an area as the "pro-choice" folks would like you to believe, either.

In His love,
:thumb :thumb

Very well said..

:clap :clap