Generational Iniquity

[OwnedByJesus]

Never been a fan. She seems to really subscribe to generational sin which most Bible teachers dismiss as I do.

YBIC,
CJL

What is that?

[CJL]

What is that?It is the belief that if someone in your family has/had a certain sin in their life, that sin and the desire to commit that sin is passed to others within your family. This is also call a generation curse. So, if my grandfather was an adulter, then his sin of adultry will be passed to me and I too will commit adultry. The problem with generational sin belief is that it is a complete misinterpretation of the Word. Here is a good link:

http://www.voiceofonecrying.com/generational_sins_or_god.htm

Hope this has not derailed this thread.
YBIC,
CJL

[BHiles]

It is the belief that if someone in your family has/had a certain sin in their life, that sin and the desire to commit that sin is passed to others within your family. This is also call a generation curse. So, if my grandfather was an adulter, then his sin of adultry will be passed to me and I too will commit adultry. The problem with generational sin belief is that it is a complete misinterpretation of the Word. Here is a good link:

http://www.voiceofonecrying.com/generational_sins_or_god.htm

Hope this has not derailed this thread.
YBIC,
CJL

This is an incorrect interpretation of what is Generational Iniquity.

The true Biblical teaching is called generational iniquity and we have ample biblical proof of that. Iniquity is not sin. Iniquity is that which gives you in your mind the permission to transgress God's law. This iniquity if not dealt with is passed generation to generation and we see specific scriptural reference that this occurs. We see ample evidence throughout scripture by example of this and we see the asking of forgiveness of this by children upon their forefathers. And we see evidence of this by viewing familiar sins generation to generation currently.

[Werner]

This is an incorrect interpretation of what is Generational Iniquity.

The true Biblical teaching is called generational iniquity and we have ample biblical proof of that. Iniquity is not sin. Iniquity is that which gives you in your mind the permission to transgress God's law. This iniquity if not dealt with is passed generation to generation and we see specific scriptural reference that this occurs. We see ample evidence throughout scripture by example of this and we see the asking of forgiveness of this by children upon their forefathers. And we see evidence of this by viewing familiar sins generation to generation currently.
I would expect a link or some Scripture to go with that...

[CJL]

I would expect a link or some Scripture to go with that...So would I.

YBIC,
CJL

[BHiles]

Generational Iniquity is the iniquity that is visited through the males upon the following generations. Iniquity is that which gives right to tresspass God's law. The trespassing is the sin. Jesus was born without the layer upon layer of iniquity. New names for iniquity are disease, sickness, addiction, genetic propensity, genetic pre-disposition etc, etc. All names given for that which gives one permission to trespass.

The froward man with his distorted perception says "He hurt me so I will do this to Him" or "He does not deserve that so I will take from him" or I was abused as a child therfore I will abuse" and on and on it goes. These iniquities even if only thought about and never allowed to come to fruition if unrepented of will pass onto the children and down through the fourth generation. We see what is called "generational sins" but what they actually are is generational iniquities. These are heaped upon the children and give them weakness in the areas that their forefathers were weak in.

Pride also has its roll in stirring up frowardness and iniquity. It is pride that says "I am better than they are". "Who are they to treat me this way" stirring up their froward heart.

Jesus never gave Himself permission to transgress therefore He never allowed iniquity to become part of His life. He was tempted in all points as we are but would never allowed an excuse to sin. We do a great disservice to ourselves and worse to our children and their children by allowing sin and iniquity to grab a foothold and not deal with these areas in our lives by placing them under the blood of Christ. They continue increasing in strength multiplied over and over. Is it any wonder the shape this world is in. It is only by the grace of God that His Spirit continues to restrain through the life of the believer.

Many will state that this is an excuse to sin. I say that this is a weapon that Satan has formed against you and your ability to be aware of your sin weaknesses allow you to better combat the flesh. Understanding the past mistakes of your forefathers gives you the ability to beg God for strengths in these areas.

The Scriptural Direct Teaching
Iniquities a Distinctly Different Offense Than Sin
Ps 107:17 Fools because of their transgression, and because of their iniquities, are afflicted.
Ps 103:10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
Ps 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
Ps 65:3 Iniquities prevail against me: as for our transgressions, thou shalt purge them away.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 50:1 Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother’s divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Ro 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Re 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Passing through generational lines
Ex 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Ex 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
Nu 14:18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
De 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

La 5:7 Our fathers have sinned, and are not; and we have borne their iniquities.

Ge 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

Le 26:39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies’ lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.

Isa 65:7 Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.

Repentance of Forefather's Iniquities
Ne 9:2 And the seed of Israel separated themselves from all strangers, and stood and confessed their sins, and the iniquities of their fathers.
Da 9:16 O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.

The Scriptual Familiar Examples
An example is Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Abraham took his wife to Egypt and "lied" and called her his sister. We find that His son Isacc did the exact same thing and by the time you make it to Jacob His very name meant deciever and he swindled His brother out of the birthright fooled his father into blessing him above his brother and swindled his father-in-law out of all the good cattle after being swindled earlier from His father-in-law switching wives on him.

The Familiar Evidence
Anecdotal I would agree however we see it far too often to dismiss it as circumstantial. I have seen first hand several adopted children taken from a mother at birth and grow up in a strong christian home only to exihibit the exact same sins in their own life as their parents including one in my own extended family.
If you watch family lines the same sins repeat generation to generation. (In my opinion, and this is only opinion for which I will not contend, I believe iniquity actually might deform our DNA in some manner) I often tell people that I am an alchoholic who never took his first drink. ("addictions" Iniquity runs in some of my ancestory)

The Scientific Evidence
I need not a scientist to prove the Bible but I think that their are some interesting scientific discoveries being made. Granted that these studies are being used to support various sin agendas for excuse but if true they do support that iniquity has a profound affect on the body(flesh) and the flesh is are largest combatant in the our spiritual warfare.
Alchoholism and other addiction as well as Homosexuality have had numerous reports that there is controversally a difference in DNA among these groups. It gives no right to sin and certainly is not a proof that someone will definately go into this sin but have weakness in the flesh according to studies most certainly is there.

Thanks for the work assignment ;):

[BHiles]

I would expect a link or some Scripture to go with that...

I posted a seperate thread as to not derail this one any further.

Admin Edit: Moved to this thread

BTW I found that aricle by Crying in the Wilderness very poor. He uses so many logical fallacies it is really a poor attempt at arguing his own predispostion to take on the liberal viewpoint of which I agree with him on. I could not use that article to fend off the liberals saying "I was born this way". It is just not an honest way to debate the subject regardless of if you believe in generational iniquity or not.

[CJL]

I posted a seperate thread as to not derail this one any further.

Admin Edit: Moved to this threadRead the post and still disagree. What I like about the link I posted is that it takes the exact verses that those who subscribe to generational sin and studies them in context, not just the single verse by itself. I would suggest you read the post instead of just passing it off since it does not line up with your beliefs.

When I stand before God, I will answer for my sins, not those of my dad or grandfather or any others. Mine. The generational sin belief is dangerous and quite damaging. And I speak as one who was accused of generational sin when in fact it was nothing but a lie. It never ceases to amaze me how Christians spend so much time trying to hurt other Christians when they should be focused on Christ and leaving judgements up to Him.

YBIC,
CJL

[BHiles]

Read the post and still disagree. What I like about the link I posted is that it takes the exact verses that those who subscribe to generational sin and studies them in context, not just the single verse by itself. I would suggest you read the post instead of just passing it off since it does not line up with your beliefs.

When I stand before God, I will answer for my sins, not those of my dad or grandfather or any others. Mine. The generational sin belief is dangerous and quite damaging. And I speak as one who was accused of generational sin when in fact it was nothing but a lie. It never ceases to amaze me how Christians spend so much time trying to hurt other Christians when they should be focused on Christ and leaving judgements up to Him.

YBIC,
CJL

Your suggestion that I did not read the post is as disengenuous of an argument as the article itself. Including the fact that you want to use the word sin when it is not sin at all it is distinctly a different offense all together.

[CJL]

BTW I found that aricle by Crying in the Wilderness very poor. He uses so many logical fallacies it is really a poor attempt at arguing his own predispostion to take on the liberal viewpoint of which I agree with him on. I could not use that article to fend off the liberals saying "I was born this way". It is just not an honest way to debate the subject regardless of if you believe in generational iniquity or not.I found the article quite good, factual and based in scripture. He did a great job of going through the terms and their meanings. I like how he put the scripture into context instead of just taking one scripture and thats it.

YBIC,
CJL

[BHiles]

I found the article quite good, factual and based in scripture. He did a great job of going through the terms and their meanings. I like how he put the scripture into context instead of just taking one scripture and thats it.

YBIC,
CJL

So how many scriptures would you like me to use? I gave ample evidence of many more than he did and could have kept on going.

He is predisposed to an idea that the liberal agenda of "I was born that way" is anti-God. So am I but I will not use fallacious arguments to prove my point and one of his fallacies is attacking only one scripture when there are a plethera of scriptures stating such in numerous manners and examples. He used one. I used many.

Then further fallacies include red herrings and poisoning the well that include statments that those who believe iniquities are passed on do not typically believe. No biblical scholar that I ever heard of that believes this thinks that they will stand before God with the excuse of "my father was the cause of my sin and get away with it" nor "My sin is not really my fault, it is the result of a curse put on me because of my father’s sin, there’s nothing I can do about it, I’m not responsible.". Then He changes the word "Iniquity" to "example" (what a crock). Completely Disengenuous arguments.

[stormtrooper]

Interesting post on generational iniquity, BHiles. I am inclined to agree.

[CJL]

So how many scriptures would you like me to use? I gave ample evidence of many more than he did and could have kept on going.

He is predisposed to an idea that the liberal agenda of "I was born that way" is anti-God. So am I but I will not use fallacious arguments to prove my point and one of his fallacies is attacking only one scripture when there are a plethera of scriptures stating such in numerous manners and examples. He used one. I used many.

Then further fallacies include read herrings and poisoning the well that include statments that those who believe iniquities are passed on do not typically believe. No biblical scholar that I ever heard of that believes this thinks that they will stand before God with the excuse of "my father was the cause of my sin and get away with it" nor "My sin is not really my fault, it is the result of a curse put on me because of my father’s sin, there’s nothing I can do about it, I’m not responsible.". Then He changes the word "Iniquity" to "example" (what a crock). Completely Disengenuous arguments.Well, you are going to interpret the scriptures in the way the best suits your views. I found his article well thoughtout, direct and truthful. As a human, like every other human, I have and will sin. That is the reality of Adam and Eve's disobedience of God. But I am not going to blame my father or grandfather for my thoughts or those thoughts that become sinful actions. They are mine and mine alone. I accept responsibility for them and it is my responsibility to lay them at the foot of the Cross and give them to Jesus. Personally, I have never seen anything good come from this type of thinking regarding generational sin or iniquities. It always ends up with Christians judging others and trying to inflict punishment when it is clearly not their job or responsibility. They would better serve their time working on their own relationship with Christ and praying for others.

YBIC,
CJL

[Resting In Him]

This is an incorrect interpretation of what is Generational Iniquity.

The true Biblical teaching is called generational iniquity and we have ample biblical proof of that. Iniquity is not sin. Iniquity is that which gives you in your mind the permission to transgress God's law. This iniquity if not dealt with is passed generation to generation and we see specific scriptural reference that this occurs. We see ample evidence throughout scripture by example of this and we see the asking of forgiveness of this by children upon their forefathers. And we see evidence of this by viewing familiar sins generation to generation currently.

This is all new to me. I never understood generational iniquity that way.
It certainly makes sense.

Also, to reiterate your position and to confirm that I have it right, true generational iniquity does not eliminate nor excuse the individual's responsibility before God. We will be held accountable - there will be no excuses when we stand before God. I thought you stated that plainly, so I don't see the reason for misunderstanding here.

I couldn't help but think, what if we are not familiar with what generational iniquities exist in our own personal history? I could only assume then that the distinct iniquities that are most prevalent in our family would be what we have inherited - right?

[OwnedByJesus]

It is the belief that if someone in your family has/had a certain sin in their life, that sin and the desire to commit that sin is passed to others within your family. This is also call a generation curse. So, if my grandfather was an adulter, then his sin of adultry will be passed to me and I too will commit adultry. The problem with generational sin belief is that it is a complete misinterpretation of the Word. Here is a good link:

http://www.voiceofonecrying.com/generational_sins_or_god.htm

Hope this has not derailed this thread.
YBIC,
CJL

I would agree to an extent in that we do as we see (but that does free us from responsibility). IE: one's parent is abusive to the other and though the child does not like it they are more incline to continue in that behavior.
Doesn't seem to unlikely does it? How many times we say 'I'll do things differently' yet we succumb to the same action/attitude as our parents.

Adam rebelled (sinned) and so do we....

However, (to not go in the ditch in that direction) that's not to say that because a parent or grandparent does _____ (whatever) that we will for sure do that. We the 'wrong' thing even when knowing what the 'right' this is.

The bottom line is we all need Christ.

4"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
5"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
6but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.


In context isn't the iniquity/sin hating God by way of idol worship?

How easy is it to forget what the Lord has done for us and how easy @ times to wonder like the sheep we are. So if you are not in a position where those around you are trying to keep you in truth, think how much harder it is for those buried under lies to know the Truth. Does that make sense or only to me? :B: That's how I read it, but maybe that's too simplistic? :noidea

[Werner]

The Scripture speaking to this are all centered around the Covenant made with Israel, no matter how you want to apply it.

There is no mention of this at all as a general application, and it's never mentioned to the Church.

This is all based on those who hate God, and directed toward Israel...

:confused

[OwnedByJesus]

The Scripture speaking to this are all centered around the Covenant made with Israel, no matter how you want to apply it.

There is no mention of this at all as a general application, and it's never mentioned to the Church.

This is all based on those who hate God, and directed toward Israel...

:confused

True, but what is shown to them (Israel) and to us is how merciful He is to those who love and obey Him.

Add: 6but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments
This verse gives me much hope in my own childrens future.

[BHiles]

This is all new to me. I never understood generational iniquity that way.
It certainly makes sense.

Also, to reiterate your position and to confirm that I have it right, true generational iniquity does not eliminate nor excuse the individual's responsibility before God. We will be held accountable - there will be no excuses when we stand before God. I thought you stated that plainly, so I don't see the reason for misunderstanding here.
Exactly


I couldn't help but think, what if we are not familiar with what generational iniquities exist in our own personal history? I could only assume then that the distinct iniquities that are most prevalent in our family would be what we have inherited - right?

Correct. Only a flesh weakness that excuses ourselves to transgress God's law (sin). If one were to have the iniquity of lying it would be that he has the iniquity that tells himself it is ok to lie (albeit in certain situations) and sin against God. It is that permission that he must constantly be on the lookout for. The sin will certainly soon follow if he allows the iniquity to flourish.

Just another point. When we look at Adam before the fall do we ever find him warring against his flesh? No we do not. How about Jesus. He was tempted. Did He war against His flesh? No we find him in direct wars against Satan and other flesh but not his own.

Now skip forward to Paul and Peter

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

1Pe 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

So why was Paul struggling? Why do we struggle today? Why is our flesh weak? We are save and are new creatures. We have been blood washed. What is it about the flesh that is so weak? It is our iniquity that says I can transgress. We have the soul and sole choice to decide whether we act upon our iniquity or we place it under subjection to the Spirit of God. It is that act that is of our choosing and it is that which is our responsiblity before God.

[Resting In Him]

The Scripture speaking to this are all centered around the Covenant made with Israel, no matter how you want to apply it.

There is no mention of this at all as a general application, and it's never mentioned to the Church.

That's true. The term "generational iniquity" isn't mentioned in the NT. So, that means we should not apply the OT wording to ourselves?:confused

This is all based on those who hate God, and directed toward Israel...



Werner, what about the verses that Hiles illustrated as examples of generational iniquity that are found in the new testament - Ro 4:7; Heb 8:12;
Heb 10:17; Re 18:5? Are you saying there is no difference then between sins and iniquities. I'm totally confused on this because what Hiles explained made such perfect sense to me.:confused

[BHiles]

The Scripture speaking to this are all centered around the Covenant made with Israel, no matter how you want to apply it.

There is no mention of this at all as a general application, and it's never mentioned to the Church.

This is all based on those who hate God, and directed toward Israel...

:confused

There were multiple verses given for differing applications. Israel had visiting iniquity shown in lamentations It was not for hatred of God nor their own selves.

I just gave a hermanuetical example of Adam, Jesus, Paul and Peter.

Two free of iniquity and two suffering from its effects.

Of course when we are born and born with iniquity we are not under grace. We are under Law (this is another thread for another time). Unfortunately that same flesh once saved soul and spirit are made new but the flesh that continued to have iniquity is still weakened by it and it is this old man that we fight.

I was saved when I was four. (just how old was my old man at 4? maybe older in iniquity than I ever realized.) There was not a whole lot of my own iniquity in me by that age but to this day I fight and I do mean fight the same weakenss of my father and that of His father of whom he never even knew. Yet I found out about him and I constantly fight his iniquities in my own life and those I have allowed to creep in because of my own sins. I have no right to allow them to influence me to transgress. By the power of the Holy Spirit He has given me I have a responsibility to obey God's commands and He has given me the power to overcome the flesh and do so.

[Werner]

Werner, what about the verses that Hiles illustrated as examples of generational iniquity that are found in the new testament - Ro 4:7; Heb 8:12;
Heb 10:17; Re 18:5? Are you saying there is no difference then between sins and iniquities. I'm totally confused on this because what Hiles explained made such perfect sense to me.:confused
They don't show "Generational Iniquity" at all. :noidea

The more examples given the less I agree with it.

Adam before the fall? Jesus? Comparing them to Peter, Paul, or anyone?

:twitch

[Resting In Him]

There were multiple verses given for differing applications. Israel had visiting iniquity shown in lamentations It was not for hatred of God nor their own selves.

I just gave a hermanuetical example of Adam, Jesus, Paul and Peter.

Two free of iniquity and two suffering from its affects.

Of course when we ar born and born with iniquity we are not under grace. We are under Law (this is another thread for another time). Unfortunately that same flesh once saved soul and spirit are made new but the flesh that continued to have iniquity is still weakened by it and it is this old man that we fight.

I was saved when I was four. There was not a whole lot of my own iniquity in me by that age but to this day I fight and I do mean fight the same weakenss of my father and that of His father of whom he never even knew. Yet I found out about him and I constantly fight his iniquities in my own life and those I have allowed to creep in because of my own sins. I have no right to allow them to influence me to transgress. By the power of the Holy Spirit He has given me I have a responsibility to obey God's commands and He has given me the power to overcome the flesh and do so.

I can identify with you here Hiiles. I too have some of the same tendencies abounding in my flesh that were active in my parents. I also see the same iniquities in my children. It's a warfare, that's for sure. We've had our share of battles, and I'm thankful that Christ gives us the victory when we walk in the Spirit and not the flesh. :clap

I'll be so happy to be relieved of this fleshly struggle. No wonder Paul had such a strong desire to be absent from the body. :D: Of course the major reasoning is that we want to be with our Father in heaven for all of eternity, but still, it will be great not to have the flesh with us any longer. :):

[BHiles]

What is the law of sin Paul speaks of?

It is not the sin itself.

It is the law against God's law. It is the permission to transgress God's law(Iniquity).

How did it get into his members? (interesting word choice)

Paul describes it as actually being part of his body and not some abstract flesh.

We really have no clue how sin and iniquity affect our actual body and the effects upon our children.

[Werner]

What Paul was talking about: Your Inner Conflicts – Old and New Natures (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=82253)

These verses though:

Exodus 20:3-6
Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Exodus 34:6-7
And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Numbers 14:17-19
And now, I beseech thee, let the power of my Lord be great, according as thou hast spoken, saying, The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.

Deuteronomy 5:7-10
Thou shalt have none other gods before me. Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

...

They are all part of the covenant God made with Israel...

Romans 2:14-16
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

You haven't shown any form of "Generational Iniquity" applicable to the Church.

IMHO. :wave

[HeIsEnough]

Werner, what about the verses that Hiles illustrated as examples of generational iniquity that are found in the new testament - Ro 4:7; Heb 8:12;
Heb 10:17; Re 18:5? Are you saying there is no difference then between sins and iniquities. I'm totally confused on this because what Hiles explained made such perfect sense to me.:confused

I tried to get these in context


Romans 4

6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him.


Hebrews 8

after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."[c]

13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.


Hebrews 10

13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds." 17Then he adds:
"Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more." 18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body,


Rev 18

4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
"Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
5for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.
6Give back to her as she has given;
pay her back double for what she has done.
Mix her a double portion from her own cup.


I certainly do not see any 'generational' sins alluded to, in these new testament verses. I see those sins as 'visited' unto those generations, i.e they were 'handed' down by God, not an enigmatic force of sin, for lack of a better way for me to express it. There surely is one thing that seems clear about those new testament scriptures, any 'visitation' of that sort is forever broken by Christ, for the believer, imo. Shalom.

[BHiles]

What Paul was talking about: Your Inner Conflicts – Old and New Natures (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=82253)

These verses though:

Exodus 20:3-6
Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Exodus 34:6-7
And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Numbers 14:17-19
And now, I beseech thee, let the power of my Lord be great, according as thou hast spoken, saying, The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.

Deuteronomy 5:7-10
Thou shalt have none other gods before me. Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

...

They are all part of the covenant God made with Israel...

Romans 2:14-16
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

You haven't shown any form of "Generational Iniquity" applicable to the Church.

IMHO. :wave

Iniquity has nothing to do with covenants. Sin doesn't either. Only how it is dealt with. A sinner is a sinner. No where in scripture does the results of sin change. A person formed in iniquity still is. We can only reproduce after our kind. The natural man still comes with everything the natural man of the old testament comes with when born into this world. Illegitimate children, Moabites and Amorites could not enter into the congregation of the Lord for 10 generations even though it was father upon grandfather that committed the sin. This visited iniquity is not covenant. There was no covenant with the Moabites nor Ammorites.

Furthermore Iniquity is not something that has ceased. It abounds. The only difference and I thing we can agree on this point is that the blood of Christ is that which frees us and breaks the hold sin has on us.

If in this life we continue in our habitual sin and iniquity, It is my belief (base on tens times more scripture than the demon seed believers ever have thought of having to backup that "pseudo doctrine") that physically we are affected and iniquity NOT SIN is passed if not dealt with.

[Werner]

Iniquity has nothing to do with covenants. Sin doesn't either. Only how it is dealt with.
I'll gloss over the fact that you just contradicted yourself there, but the last line is exactly what I was looking for. :nod

They way God dealt with Iniquity in the covenant He made with Israel was shown in Exodus, Numbers, etc. I agree sin is sin, iniquity is iniquity, etc., but the way God speaks of how He is going to deal with it is directly tied to their covenant, and is never mentioned outside that covenant.

:wave

[BHiles]

I'll gloss over the fact that you just contradicted yourself there, but the last line is exactly what I was looking for. :nod

They way God dealt with Iniquity in the covenant He made with Israel was shown in Exodus, Numbers, etc. I agree sin is sin, iniquity is iniquity, etc., but the way God speaks of how He is going to deal with it is directly tied to their covenant, and is never mentioned outside that covenant.

:wave

So in the new covenant we find that iniquity was taken on by Christ at the bruising of the crucifixion. (I would like to know why certain injuries had specific remedy but tha tis for another topic.) For the believer we find these things taken care of at the crucifixion: Sin, Chastisement, Iniquity and Healing, in broad terms. Now we find that in each of these cases even though we enter into the new covnant all of these things or the lack thereof are still with us. He made a way and gave us power over these things but in each case they will be with us (and I believe in the same manner prior to the covenant) until we are completely redeemed and shed the flesh of this old man. Does the old man Change? Or does the soul just decide to follow after the things of the spirit and the old man with all of his sin affected self remain. I believe we only add to but we must crucify him warts and all daily including his iniquity.

BTW the iniquity passed seems to be on all men that hate God. He did not state that this was Hebrew only.

[Werner]

He was speaking to whom and in what context?

Did you read this? Your Inner Conflicts – Old and New Natures (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=82253)

I'm not questioning the reality of iniquity or sin. I'm not questioning the old or new natures. I'm not questioning how we are born into iniquity or sin.

I'm only doubtful of the application of those specific verses applying in the manner you have asserted. :):

[BHiles]

Did you read this? Your Inner Conflicts – Old and New Natures (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=82253)


Uh I posted on it when it was written. :pound

[Werner]

Maybe you forgot about it! :noidea








:B: :fear

[BHiles]

Maybe you forgot about it! :noidea








:B: :fear:lol After another birthday I wonder about my senility also.

[Resting In Him]

I believe we only add to but we must crucify him warts and all daily including his iniquity.

Question on this statement:

How can we re-crucify our old nature when, as Christians, we died (positionally) with Christ on the cross which is also symbolized in baptism?

Paul says to "reckon" ourselves dead.

The way I've interpreted this is we look back to our death with Christ on the cross and now we live with him because of the resurrection and only by reckoning it so can we have victory over the old man - not by re-crucifying him. Right?:confused

[CJL]

It is my belief (base on tens times more scripture than the demon seed believers ever have thought of having to backup that "pseudo doctrine") that physically we are affected and iniquity NOT SIN is passed if not dealt with.:confused :confused Who are you referring to when say "demon seed believers?"

YBIC,
CJL

[BHiles]

Question on this statement:

How can we re-crucify our old nature when, as Christians, we died (positionally) with Christ on the cross which is also symbolized in baptism?

Paul says to "reckon" ourselves dead.

The way I've interpreted this is we look back to our death with Christ on the cross and now we live with him because of the resurrection and only by reckoning it so can we have victory over the old man - not by re-crucifying him. Right?:confused

The daily saccrifice was taken away when Christ died. Now we are called to die daily in our fleshly desires. Putting to death the old man and living unto the spirit and the Spirit of God.

Lu 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me

1Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

[BHiles]

:confused :confused Who are you referring to when say "demon seed believers?"

YBIC,
CJL

Nephillim being sexual offspring of Demon seed and human women.