Once Saved Always Saved? or not...

[The Norm]

There are few topics in the Bible that over my 53 years I feel I still havent come to grips with, or feel dogmatically about, but the 'once saved always saved', verses the 'you can loose your salvation', is one that sometimes I lean one way, sometimes I lean the other. I run into the confusion when dealing with (Im at work so dont have chapter and verse) the scripture that says basically once someone has tasted of the Holy Spirit and of the good things to come of God and leaves, how hard it is to get him to repentance again, it incinuates, at least to me, that the person was saved, fell away, and didnt come back. Then the other side of the coin is where Jesus tells the Father He didnt loose one of the people God gave Him. but Paul says he was pressing in because he had not attained what he was after, and was pressing towards the mark in hopes to gain the resurection from the dead................I dont know, its seems like both sides have good arguments. If it took a decision on my part to come to Christ, why couldn't with another decision (not that I'd ever want to) you leave Christ?

I guess part of the confusion was with my upbringing also, where I was taught that strict obediance was a sign of being saved, and lack of obediance was a sign of falling away, so every time I don't feel like I'm performing up to His expectations, I feel like maybe Im not saved or am on my way that direction. This is one topic I'd like to understand better.

[Waiting...]

This should be interesting.:pop2

[Werner]

You can do a search on OSAS and you will find plenty of the threads were it's debated :):

[The Norm]

Search on RR-BB or just out there on the net in general??

[CountryPerson]

Norm, for some good sound teaching on eternal security, you can go to:
www.biblebb.com and there you will find Q & A section somewhere on homepage. In Q & A section, topics are listed alphabetically. There are loads of ques./ans on this topic. It's apparently a subject that is of concern to many Christians, and I'm glad you're seriously taking a look at it. I think you'll be pleased with the thoroughly Scripture-based information that you will find.

[Werner]

Search on RR-BB or just out there on the net in general??
On this message board :):

[humbleone]

Yes, I feel the same way as you do, The Norm.

It seems like theres verses to support both views, for sure. I kind of feel like though, yeah... what is to stop a person, having free will, from CHOOSING to walk away from Jesus and salvation? In that way, it is not "impossible" to lose your salvation. But I think "throwing it away" would be a more accurate way to put it. I dont think God takes it from you. I think you can "forfeit" it.... but again, Im not positive. Wish there was a way to know for sure. This topic has caused me great personal distress for a long time now. I often pray for God to take me Home if He sees Im on my way to giving up my salvation.

I really feel like I would have to be crazy or very extremely demonically-oppressed to do such a thing..... but then sin can lead to all sorts of horrible things.

((Another thing tho, the Psalm where He says we are inscribed on the palms of His Hand..... it sounds hard to get un-inscribed..... but again, I dont know........ also "Noone can snatch them out of My Hand".... but doesnt say noone can choose to leave.....)).

I always like to read these OSAS/OSNAS threads, no matter how many of them there might be on here. :))

[Eternally]

I don't see how Jesus can be our Savior if He can't for sure save us.

I mean, if He is your Savior, HE saved you. It has nothing to do with you.

He died for your sins, past, present and future. ANY sin, including straying from the Christian walk, is covered by the blood.

Remember, we are white as snow and a new creation. WE cannot become un - new.

And to ME, this is the whole point of salvation and Christ. That we are secure and bought and saved for all eternity.

THe chair that holds you up that can never fail.

[CountryPerson]

Remember how the apostle Paul stated that we are given the Holy Spirit, the "earnest" of our inheritance? 2Cor1:22: "Who has also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts." Eph1:14: "Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." If you look up the word earnest in a Strong's Dictionary, you will find the amplified meaning which is part of the purchase-money or property given in advance as security for the rest. "It was a word used to mean pledge or earnest money. These verses and the meaning of the Greek word that was used by Paul certainly sounds like salvation for the believer is "finished," just as Jesus said as His last words on the cross. It's certainly true that while we are in these earthly bodies with our fallen emotions, understanding, etc., that occasionally we are going to feel like we've "fallen away," but this feeling usually goes away when we get back into God's Word to see what He says, not just about eternal security, but about everything. The more we get to know God intimately, the fewer times of uncertainty and doubt we will experience. Harry Ironsides has a wonderful sermon on Assurance. I recommend it. People who teach that we can lose our salvation have changed the nature of God. He doesn't ever break a promise, and in John 3:16, He promises eternal life. Satan wants to destroy our joy and our peace; he succeeds when he tempts us to think our feelings are a guide to our state before God. When the disciples came back and told Jesus that even the demons were subject to them, He told them not to rejoice in this, but to rejoice that their names were written in heaven. (Luke 10:20). We need to remember to do the same.

[Mailman Dan]

Paul certainly sounds like salvation for the believer is "finished," just as Jesus said as His last words on the cross.

While I happen to be on the OSAS side, I find that its a hard issue to cover. For example, Paul also said this...

1Cor 9:27

But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.


While this doctrine is a tricky one, I tend to believe those who are firm in Christ know they are, and so do those around them.

I do hold the view, however, that the vast majority of those who profess to be "Christians" are not. It based on what the majority say and do, making their lives according to the desires of sin, not making any effort to follow God. One poll even states that 80% of confessing Christians don't believe all ten of the Commandments.

I suspect many people who went through a "religious" experience in church and cling to the OSAS doctrine, will find themselves standing before God in their sins, because they never saw a need to repent. Alot of people said a prayer when they were 12, but never understood what sin was in the first place.

Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Dan~~~>was one of those for a long time

[JustInTime]

While I happen to be on the OSAS side, I find that its a hard issue to cover. For example, Paul also said this...

1Cor 9:27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

I read the verses leading up to that and I see that quote in a totally different light.

Paul was preaching to many people and at the same time reminding himself not to try to rise above them. Paul knew that the one thing that God would not stand for was someone trying to lift himself to God's level.

[Sarah J]

Once saved always saved? Of course. God knew who his were before we were born. God is not an author of confusion, but guess who is? Satan:doh . If he can get you to doubt whether you are saved or not, this would be a great tool for him to deter you in your progress. Satan hates us and would love to bring us down at any opportunity. God Bless. Sarah

[HiLaReE320]

I know what you mean, TheNorm. I can't come to a cut and dry answer. My best understanding of it, though, is that true Christians are sealed forever by Christ's blood. Once the initial moment of salvation occurs, absolutely nothing we can do can unsave us. Does Paul ever warn Christians to be endanger of hellfire? Im not sure, but I don't think he did. If a Christian, however, chooses to turn his eye from God and onto the world, even until he dies, he just will not have as great of a reward that will someone that atleast TRIED to live a Godly life. I couldn't imagine the feeling, even though saved, of not being able to throw a single crown at the feet of Jesus. To know that your whole life was basically wasted.

I have heard of, however, a few "Christian" pastors who, you know, went to seminary, founded successful churches, and then for some reason decided to become an atheist and totally reject God. I don't know about those kind of people. I think there can only be one of two things happen, in those cases... Either the person was never saved to begin with (a false conversion, no true repentance) or that person is saved but will just have few, if any, reward.

[Indiana Janz]

I asked Jesus into my heart when I was about six years old. I didn't really understand anything about sin, repentance or grace, but I believed in Jesus.

I strayed terribly through my teens and twenties, but I don't like to think that God saved me with an asterisk.

[Franklin]

It seems like theres verses to support both views, for sure. I kind of feel like though, yeah... what is to stop a person, having free will, from CHOOSING to walk away from Jesus and salvation? In that way, it is not "impossible" to lose your salvation. But I think "throwing it away" would be a more accurate way to put it. I dont think God takes it from you. I think you can "forfeit" it.... but again, Im not positive. Wish there was a way to know for sure. This topic has caused me great personal distress for a long time now. I often pray for God to take me Home if He sees Im on my way to giving up my salvation.

Well said!

[4everHis]

This should be interesting.:pop2

Depends.........on whether you were saved to begin with.

If so, Yes OSAS.

[CountryPerson]

1Cor 9:27

But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.Dan, I don't think that Paul was referring to losing his salvation here.Personally, I think he was talking about ruining his witness, which is possible for any of us to do if we don't bring our flesh under subjection and submit ourselves humbly under God's authority Another verse that supports this view is ICor.10:12 Let him who thinks he stands take heed, lest he fall. As Paul in later verses discusses temptation



I do hold the view, however, that the vast majority of those who profess to be "Christians" are not. It based on what the majority say and do, making their lives according to the desires of sin, not making any effort to follow God. One poll even states that 80% of confessing Christians don't believe all ten of the Commandments. Too often people are deceived about their own spiritual state because no one has taught them the whole counsel of God which includes in-depth teaching about sin This is an unpopular topic in most churches today where "connecting with other people" is promoted and "healing for psychological issues" have taken over the sound preaching of the Word of God. I can't imagine the grief that the Head of the church, Jesus Christ must feel about all of this.

I suspect many people who went through a "religious" experience in church and cling to the OSAS doctrine, will find themselves standing before God in their sins, because they never saw a need to repent. Alot of people said a prayer when they were 12, but never understood what sin was in the first place.

Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. This is the most sobering verse in all of Scripture, imo


Dan~~~>was one of those for a long time
So was I. As a child who was raised in Sunday School with even an attendance pin representing several years of no absences, I prayed many times for Jesus to save me. My life did not reflect a true love for God and longing to know Him more, with an inner change that was reflected in my outward behavior until I was in my late 30's. The missing ingredient is just what you have stated: REPENTANCE The Bible says, "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation, not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." 2Cor7:10

[Jacob]

...I still havent come to grips with, or feel dogmatically about, but the 'once saved always saved',...I run into the confusion when dealing with (Im at work so dont have chapter and verse) the scripture that says basically once someone has tasted of the Holy Spirit and of the good things to come of God and leaves, how hard it is to get him to repentance again,...Then the other side of the coin is where Jesus tells the Father He didnt loose one of the people God gave Him. but Paul says he was pressing in because he had not attained what he was after, and was pressing towards the mark in hopes to gain the resurection from the dead................I dont know, its seems like both sides have good arguments. If it took a decision on my part to come to Christ, why couldn't with another decision (not that I'd ever want to) you leave Christ?

....I was taught that strict obediance was a sign of being saved, and lack of obediance was a sign of falling away, so every time I don't feel like I'm performing up to His expectations, I feel like maybe Im not saved or am on my way that direction. This is one topic I'd like to understand better.
God gives eternal life as a free gift. Salvation is not dependent upon our effort.

"For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith." (Romans 3:22-25).

"Propitation"- means to "appease" someone who is angry so that they are no longer angry. Jesus stepped in and took that anger and wrath for us.

Saved people will obey. Obedience is not the means to getting saved, nor is the means by which we remain saved afterwards. However, the New Testament teaches that when a person is saved, they are also saved from the power of sin in this life - freeing us to live for God. If a person "continues" to live in sin, i.e. habitual, unrepentant sin, then it is an indicator that they might not have been saved to begin with. God does not require instant perfection, but the bible teaches "that if any one is in Christ, he is a new creature, old things pass away, new things come."

The "falling away" verses in Hebrews 6:4-6:
I believe those who fell away were NEVER saved. They had head knowledge, which also would require the work the Holy Spirit. But, they fell away by not putting their faith in the Lord by actually receiving Him into their lives by faith. They turned away, rejected Him, and remained in that part of Judaism that still relied upon the old animal sacricial system to atone for sin. Hebrews 6 mentions two categories of people:

"...those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame....But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way."

He wrote that "those," "them," and "they" are the ones who fell away. However, he is telling this to people whom he calls, "Beloved," and "you," and associates salvation with them. He tells them that they have something that the others didn't.

Paul wrote in Colossians 2:
"God made you alive together with Him (Jesus), when he forgave us all our trespasses, erasing the record that stood against us with its legal demands. He set this aside, nailing it to the cross."

The record of our sins was nailed to the cross of Jesus, and erased! For us to lose salvation, God would have to go back to the cross of Jesus, and unerase the record that He erased earlier.

Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 6,
"...you do not belong to yourselves, for you have been bought with a price."

This means that Jesus Christ purchased us, the price He paid was His life and blood. That means He owns us. That is why Paul said that we "do not belong to ourselves."

Nobody can buy us from Jesus because nobody can match or beat the price that He paid to redeem us. Nobody is going to steal us from the Lord. And, as Paul notes, we do not have any authority over ourselves and thus we cannot sell ourselves out.

[antsinmypants]

Search on RR-BB or just out there on the net in general??

Both... mainly here.

Here's an article one of the guys I've studied under (B. Scott) wrote about OSAS/OSNAS
I don't always agree with him, or his wording, but he makes very valid points from scripture and the scriptural mindset of old. It doesn't get into church history of how and when it was debated, questioned, challenged.. but goes at it from scripture.

Frequently Asked Questions : Can I Lose My Salvation?


It seems that wherever I go, this question is usually asked. Many times I get this question in private after I speak. This issue is usually in a group of similar questions that are proposed in the guise of seeking an answer, but in truth is only an attempt to solicit an accomplice. Those who are convinced that there is an actual 'correct' answer to this question are usually only seeking more ammunition for their view. My purpose is not to avoid the answer, but to ask if the scriptures even address or teach such a question, or is this question really just another diversion from the real issues.


Article edited for copyright

[Cash]

Do we belong to the Perfect Shepherd?

Or Not?

Now what is the shepherd's responsibility?

[antsinmypants]

Another question in the same vein (;):)

Did not our Shepherd say "I am the door"?
Now, as a Door, does He not perfectly keep in the sheep-pen (as in "in the family") Who he lets in?

[ohbibleguy]

The Norm - I think the problem you’re always going to run into on these topics is that everyone will have their own opinion. I have always believed the once saved always saved to be a dangerous belief. I think it can lead some folks into compromise and eventually lead to their destruction. I do agree that once you know Christ and have tasted of the Kingdom and that which is Holy, pure and just, it would be hard to turn. However, we also have to remember that we are free will beings, and as such if we choose not to follow God we will pay the ultimate cost. The danger lies in thinking that we can freely sin and since we confessed once we are saved. We can go around and around on this issue. I think the bottom line is that if we are following Jesus, we won't want to sin. However, the bible is plain in 1 John 1:9 that if do sin we have some place to turn. I for one am glad to see the U.S.A. placing more emphasis on the 10 Commandments; I think a lot of our problems could have been avoided if we hadn't strayed so far from God and His law. I won't take up a lot of space with bible texts and summation, if you interested in them you may message me and I can provide them for you.

[waiting]

Is it eternal life, or temporary eternal life.

If we lose our salvation then we are kept by works, we are not saved by our works nor can we be unsaved by our works. If you stray you will be chastised, if you simply lose your salvation why is there a need for chastisement.

My children are mine, no matter what they do. I may have to spank their behind to get that point across once in a while but they are still mine. :):

[antsinmypants]

From above referenced article (which i forgot the link to, sorry!)

http://wildbranch.org/Archive/lesson74.html


...Those who believe that you can be saved and then lose that salvation have a list of prooftexts that are supposed to support their view. Not the least of which are:

Ivrim 6:4-6...


...Ivrim 10:26...

...2 Kefa 2:20-22...

Those who believe that one cannot lose their salvation have a long list of prooftexts as well. Some of them are:

Ephesians 1:13...


...Yochanan 5:24...

...Ivrim 7:25 ...

...The issue of the loss of salvation is in keeping with western theology, which has long been in the business of defending itself rather than seeking truth...


and:

...The reality of the 'heavenly' birth is placed along side the physical one. If one is truly born again, an incorruptable seed, then this child of God will seek to behave like a child of God. His behavior is determined and guided by the source of his birth, in the same way that earthly children's appearance and behavior is determined and guided by the genetic make-up and training of his parents. From my perspective, when I see a professed child of 'Elohiym consistently behaving in a manner not consistent with the ways of the Creator, I can logically assume two things. Either the person is ignorant of the ways of the God of Israel, or the person is only professing to be a child and in reality has not received the Word of 'Elohiym. It is in all the anecdotal possibilities that the analogy begins to break down, not because [Y'shua]'s comparison is faulty, but because [Y'shua] is using faithful pictures, and our world is filled with deception and inconsistencies. In our picture with Nicodemus, the reality of the expression of the new birth is as certain as the reality of the expression of our first birth. However, in our world people say one thing and do another.



I have to agree with Brad. The idea of losing one's salvation is a purely western idea. It came about first with gnosticism in the day of Paul and thereafter his death... one has only to read writings of the ECF to find it there. :sigh

[B A N E]

Ants,

FTR, all Scripture quotes at RRMB should have the standard english
names of the books of the Bible. Else, the sources/titles used sew
confusion.

[Patience4Him]

I believe our salvation is eternal. There would be no hope if we had to live our lives in fear of losing what God Himself has given us. Ive struggled with this since I was born again. And then I just gave up. Im His. And thats all there is to it.

[antsinmypants]

Ants,

FTR, all Scripture quotes at RRMB should have the standard english
names of the books of the Bible. Else, the sources/titles used sew
confusion.

I do apologize, I was trying to quote his article and I use both sets of names freely. I guess I don't think of others having confusion at them being used.

Kefa = Peter
Ivrim (obviously to Hebrew/Aramaic speakers) is Hebrews
Yochanan being John

[Waiting...]

Depends.........on whether you were saved to begin with.

If so, Yes OSAS.

Huh?:confused

[ub4war]

This should be interesting.:pop2


lol and it is:thumb :):

[Eternally]

Huh?:confused



HUH WHAT? :confused

[831]

Hi All.

I find that if you try to break things down to the simplest they could be, that makes it easier to understand. Where this one is concerned I see it this way.

Salvation is a gift from God & God does not break his promises or takes away any gift he freely gives. There for I see it as you can not loose your salvation as God never takes back any gift he has given to anyone. Also Any denial of eternal security is, in its essence, a belief that we must maintain our own salvation by our own good works. This is completely antithetical to salvation by grace. We are saved because of Christ's merits, not our own (Romans 4:3-8). To claim that we must obey God's Word or live a godly life to maintain our salvation is equal to saying that Jesus' death was not sufficient to pay the penalty for our sins.

God Bless you all
831

[Christine]

The idea of losing one's salvation is a purely western idea. It came about first with gnosticism in the day of Paul and thereafter his death... one has only to read writings of the ECF to find it there. :sigh Enough, Ants. Please defend your position without calling others' positions "gnostic". The bible has PLENTY of support for both positions -- or the debate wouldn't have existed for millenia.

I do apologize, I was trying to quote his article and I use both sets of names freely. I guess I don't think of others having confusion at them being used.

Kefa = Peter
Ivrim (obviously to Hebrew/Aramaic speakers) is Hebrews
Yochanan being John I can count on one hand (with plenty of fingers left over) the number of Hebrew/Aramaic speakers on this board. :sigh

[Grace]

My children are mine, no matter what they do. I may have to spank their behind to get that point across once in a while but they are still mine. :):

I don't really understand this argument. We are all creations of God, including the unsaved. So those who are not saved will not go Heaven ......... they are still creations of the Father, but are not in His presence.

Your children can be cast out from you. Technically, you put them up for adoption, give them away, etc. Yes, you will all be the biological parent, just as God will always be the Creator of all beings. I really find this arugument confusing.

[Paul]

The idea of losing one's salvation is a purely western idea. It came about first with gnosticism in the day of Paul...I've never heard this before. Where does this info come from?

I'm asking because the Gnostic's idea of salvation was nothing like the Christian idea of salvation. They believed that salvation came from becoming aware. It seems to be a salvation from ignorance. I can't imagine you could loose that unless you got amnesia or something. :B:

[antsinmypants]

Christine, Paul:

I'm not saying that it came about AMONGST Gnosticism, but at the same time frame.

There are several books, one of which I have at home (which is about the movement from Semitic origins in the early Faith, to more western Greco-Roman mentality: The Hibbert Lectures 1888: The Influence of Greek Ideas And Usages upon the Christian Church 1897 ISBN 1417982438.

it does have a good bit of latin and greek untranslated, which makes for a hard read at times, but it details gnosticism as well as the debate of OSAS/OSnAS and how it came to be within the camp of believers, starting in Paul's epistles, his attack against the notion and the fact it arises yet again, yet more prevelantly after his death..


Famous ECF after Paul and the disciples/apostles such as Tertullian, Iraneus, Cyprian, and so on moved from the model of eternal security towards OSnAS..


I understand the debate has been ongoing nearly 2,000 years, and I am aware the fact people hang on either or.. and the divisiveness.

What I am saying, is folks CAN read up on this, and go way back to do so, even quite inexpensively and by using online free-book resources such as the Gutenberg Project and Sacred-texts.org (the Christian area)

The info is available, purchaseable and free.

[Paul]

I'm not saying that it came about AMONGST Gnosticism, but at the same time frame.OK, that makes more sense. I misread what you wrote.

[Servant]

I have to agree with Brad. The idea of losing one's salvation is a purely western idea. It came about first with gnosticism in the day of Paul and thereafter his death... one has only to read writings of the ECF to find it there. :sigh


:whistle

[truth child]

I don't think it's the saved part of the situation that people don't understand, but the repenting part. Look up the word repent.... There's a change a turning point, going in the opposite direction. God understands human frailties, but saying "I'm a Christian and following the footsteps of Satan, causes confusion. Satan is the author of confusion. Just follow the paths of Jesus, and that's all you need to know. Jesus says, "my sheep know my voice and follow Me." We can get caught up in doctrines of which earthly men have set before us in their own understanding, but it comes down to one thing, do you belong to Jesus? Are you a follower of his? Do you read the scriptures and depend on the Holy Spirit to discern these things for you? If you aren't following Him, today is the day to begin, and there will be no more confusion of the term OSAS. The term doesn't bother me at all, but it is confusing from one church to another.... but I know in my heart that I am His child, and I love Him and want to serve Him, only....that way, I know for sure...If you still enjoy the sinful, and lustful life of sin, I would be worried about my salvation...and no other person can settle the question for sure to your satisfaction, except your relationship with your Father. Satan grins, a lot, I'm sure. He likes for the churches to kick up the dust so it becomes hard to see. He loves the arguing. If you REALLLLY believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, or are you going to choose the life that will send you to hell? It's wide and easy...but.... think on things eternal. Even the demons believe in Jesus, and tremble....and some even might camouflage their outside... but God sees on the inside. I've been a Methodist and a Baptist and both (and others) like to get on their soapboxes, but that's just a last name for people in the same body. They just sometimes get caught up in frivolous matters. There is only one thing that matters? IS YOUR HEART RIGHT WITH GOD?... HAVE YOU REPENTED? As Paul would put it, Put away that old person you were?

[waiting]

I don't really understand this argument. We are all creations of God, including the unsaved. So those who are not saved will not go Heaven ......... they are still creations of the Father, but are not in His presence.

Your children can be cast out from you. Technically, you put them up for adoption, give them away, etc. Yes, you will all be the biological parent, just as God will always be the Creator of all beings. I really find this arugument confusing.

According to Jesus in John 8:44 we are not all Gods children. We are his creation. You have a choice which family you belong to. We can be adopted as Paul said in romans 8:15.

Romans 8:15 (KJV)
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Once adopted through grace by faith you are Gods child and that gift will not be revoked. God the father is a perfect parent, he does give away or adopt out his children. I will in no wise cast out. Freewill gives each created human the choice to become a child of God or not. The second birth is your entry into Gods family.

[HeIsEnough]

I have always believed the once saved always saved to be a dangerous belief.

You are equating two seperate things as causation, when they may not even correlate.


I think it can lead some folks into compromise and eventually lead to their destruction.

This is addressed by Paul in scripture as some believing they somehow have a 'license to sin'. It is commonly viewed as having come about through gnostic beliefs, in that the things done in the body, have no effect upon the spirit. Anyone taking this viewpoint, is incorrect, or will be corrected, no worry. But don't think for a minute that OSAS is the only, nor even the primary source for this attitude.


I do agree that once you know Christ and have tasted of the Kingdom and that which is Holy, pure and just, it would be hard to turn.

You must also believe it will be a 'forever turning', because Paul is clear there would be no avenue to come back. Not even conceding that was the context he spoke it in to begin with.


The danger lies in thinking that we can freely sin and since we confessed once we are saved. We can go around and around on this issue.

I don't believe there is any need to go 'round and round', because not one person here has even slightly hinted they believe that. Seems you have a man made of straw there, consider it officially burned by both sides.

[Franklin]

Perhaps you can lose your salvation:

2Pe 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

[andy]

Indeed there are scriptures that both camps can refer to to support their particular view.

Personally I believe in Once Saved Always Saved, but this is only my interpretation of scripture in its entirety.

I believe that sometimes taking individual scriptures alone can lead to misinterpretation. Again, jmho.:wave

[waiting]

I grew up being taught you could lose your salvation. I lived in fear that I may have done something to merit my being thrown away. Once I was a teenager I thought I was lost and God had given up on me, that led to some years of drug and alcohol abuse, why not I thought God threw me away, I owe him nothing. In reality he was always there, waiting for me, nudging me. I met someone who told me OSAS. If that were true I needed to get right and apologize for my fallen ways. I believe it is true. I can look back and see Gods hand in my life even when I was away from him. It was agony being away from God but that is his way of bringing us around. I praise and thank him for his long suffering. :clap

There is a danger to the belief that you can lose your salvation.

[LambsLight]

this verse, accompanied by multiples others have encouraged me that osas is false.

35So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37For in just a very little while,
"He who is coming will come and will not delay.
38But my righteous one[f] will live by faith.
And if he shrinks back,
I will not be pleased with him."[g] 39But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.

when paul says, "do not throw away your confidence" there is no way he could be talking about the sinners. who are the ones who shrink back, those who lost their confidence which were the saints.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;


Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Rev 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.


Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

the last verse indicates to me that the candle stick represents salvation and removing means blotting out salvation.
---------------------------------------------------
some might say God can't remove your name from the book of life. well this verse seems pretty bold about it.

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

and if He takes your name out of the book of life, then obviously at one point you were saved. sorry for taking so much time. take care
poaGb
-jamal-

[waiting]

These verses are to churches not individuals. Not all church members are saved and not all churches follow the true teachings of Christ. Still, people in those churches can be saved. One of the things the AC will point to after the rapture is the number of church members left. mho Some churches will be almost completely intact after the rapture.

[AnyDayNow]

There are few topics in the Bible that over my 53 years I feel I still havent come to grips with, or feel dogmatically about, but the 'once saved always saved', verses the 'you can loose your salvation', is one that sometimes I lean one way, sometimes I lean the other...This is one topic I'd like to understand better.

You gave a statement on Hebrews 6, but most people miss verse 9. Go back and read it, starting at verse 9 and then from the last few verses of chapter 5. You may understand it better. That word, impossible...in Hebrews 6...it's also here:

Matthew 19: 24 "And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.'' 25. When His disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, "Who then can be saved?'' 26. But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.''

Part of my Christian life "metamorphasis" (I am same age as you) was letting go of the idea that I have anything to do with my Salvation. Only God can Work it. I can do nothing but repent and accept a Faith in Jesus. Once you realize that, most of the passages which some people see as problems simply don't say the same thing anymore. Try it. It worked for me.


Edited to Add:

Here is another verse that helped me in the earlier years:

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

I just couldn't be the Christian Jesus wants me to be without Trust. The more I Trusted Him, the more He gave me. It's a confidence thing. :):

[Franklin]

There is a danger to the belief that you can lose your salvation.
I'd say the opposite is just as true. But Perhaps the danger exists in assuming one way or the other. What if we're assuming incorrectly?

[CJL]

I guess the real question is does free will play into this at all? Can you know Jesus as your Lord and Saviour and decide later that you don't want to live for Him? Can you choose to not believe or not follow? I know the famous argument that a person who does this was never saved in the first place but how do we know for sure? I know of a specific person that in my youth was extremely instrumental in getting me to church and helping in my walk with the Lord. It is years later and I have found out that this person left his wife, family and denounced his belief in Christ. Could he have been faking? No way. So what happened? Seems to me he made a conscience choice to turn away from Christ. Is he eternally lost? Not my call. I can only comment on what I see.

YBIC,
CJL

[pilgrimian]

I asked Jesus into my heart when I was about six years old. I didn't really understand anything about sin, repentance or grace, but I believed in Jesus.

I strayed terribly through my teens and twenties, but I don't like to think that God saved me with an asterisk.

This is an excellent point.

The same happened to me. I came to the Lord at the age of nine. I lived rather sinfully for a couple years, but never lost my faith. I knew I wasn't abiding in Him...but I nevertheless believed in Him. I just realized that I was not living right, and that I needed to get right with God. Nevertheless, I still believed. Had I died in that time I don't believe He would have told me He never knew me...I do believe that He would have not been pleased with me and that I lost rewards because of my conduct in that time. Did I lose faith, though? Never.

Who is actually not believing and yet holding onto OSAS, as people say they are? I don't know. Perhaps I know too many believers. Perhaps my faith is so strong I can't fathom people who would actually be able to debate this subject while not having any faith at all.

[pilgrimian]

Perhaps you can lose your salvation:

2Pe 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

Check the context again, Franklin. Peter states that these people are not Believers...they "deny the Lord who bought them"

1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

[pilgrimian]

Depends.........on whether you were saved to begin with.

If so, Yes OSAS.

Huh?:confused

If I am correct, 4everHis is saying if they were "once" saved then they are still saved.

[ohbibleguy]

Is it eternal life, or temporary eternal life.


If we lose our salvation then we are kept by works, we are not saved by our works nor can we be unsaved by our works. If you stray you will be chastised, if you simply lose your salvation why is there a need for chastisement.

My children are mine, no matter what they do. I may have to spank their behind to get that point across once in a while but they are still mine. :):

I wish I could accept your logic, but to place God on the same level as us is not possible. We think and act as humans; He on the other hand is God. You know I have always found it funny that Christians use the same argument of works when they try to justify what they believe. I know I can recall reading that faith without works is dead. Yet we as Christians always through up the “we are saved by grace”. Yes, we are saved by grace, but our relationship with God is deeper than grace. We have been having these discussions about the 10 Commandments among Christian Brethren for years. All of the sudden low and behold a lot of folks in the U.S. have decided that the 10 Commandments are important. Why? Aren't the 10 Commandments about works? I mean not killing does that save us? No. Not stealing does that save us? No! We could go on and on, so why are the commandments important? Why is anything outside of professing Christ as our Savior important? I could answer but that isn't my way. I think each person needs to be persuaded in their own mind. If you think once saved is sound, then you may accept it, I merely stated that I feel it is dangerous and then gave an example why.

God will never force anyone in to heaven and there is enough scriptural support against the once saved doctrine, that I still say it is a dangerous doctrine. Maybe some would think that I am weak in faith maybe some would think I believe in works. I guess I would say I know what the bible teaches, and in my humble opinion I have found enough scriptural support to indicate that the once saved doctrine is not a sound biblical one. I think we should be very careful about what we teach we may have to answer for it someday.

[Waiting...]

If I am correct, 4everHis is saying if they were "once" saved then they are still saved.

Ooooohhhhhh. Now I get it. Forgive me for be a little slow here. The popcorn is getting to me. :popcorn

[ub4war]

[QUOTE=HiLaReE320]I know what you mean, TheNorm. I can't come to a cut and dry answer. My best understanding of it, though, is that true Christians are sealed forever by Christ's blood. Once the initial moment of salvation occurs, absolutely nothing we can do can unsave us. Does Paul ever warn Christians to be endanger of hellfire? Im not sure, but I don't think he did. If a Christian, however, chooses to turn his eye from God and onto the world, even until he dies, he just will not have as great of a reward that will someone that atleast TRIED to live a Godly life. I couldn't imagine the feeling, even though saved, of not being able to throw a single crown at the feet of Jesus. To know that your whole life was basically wasted.

i too feel your pain--as a newbie i am really confused , some say you have to
do this and that and obey the saying of Jesus---others say you have to know when Jesus is talking to A. Jews B. the folks immediately standing
with him and C. the people of the future.---its c that bothers me because alot of people tell me you can not be spiritual all the time and hence my confusion------was not Jesus talking to Jews and all people in the future to
it all seems too complicated and and then some has to break Greek or Aramaic on ya---ouch

these verse run Thur my head and i feel God is reminding me of these facts

1John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

so as i see it i will say that i feel
once saved is true for a truly repentant person---this is probably confusing but to me when i realized how close to hell i was and i knew i deserved it
but the pastor said that my only hope was to trust Jesus too save me
i did it and knew it to be true and i was sorry for my sins and was scared
of hell and God made me realize i Had to trust Jesus,there is no other hope for me---thats my definition of repentance as i understand it
now the mess in my life was -has- and is being cleaned up by God

I think it may be possible to throw away ones salvation but i am not sure,

but i do know that when i ''got it'' i had this feeling of forgiveness
and the worry of hell vanished--i felt shame and began a desire to work to please God and try as hard as i can to overcome the old man in me.

But this is the part that made me get it and it was that if i sinned God would chastised me but not cast me out of his family---I was born again into the family of God and Jesus said no one can pluck me out of his hand

i am sorry if i rambled and i hope this helps

[ub4war]

one more thing and i hope this does not get me in trouble but its just an observation and thats all-----it means nothing but i was thinking
if you go out in the ''world'' and proclaim osas you will get attacked real quick
Jesus is the stumbling block---as i understand it some people trip over the simple salvation message of or Lord and just can not accept it

[pilgrimian]

:whistle

Actually, when I read this "with gnosticism" I immediately thought "along with," not within gnosticism. I understood what Ants meant by saying that. Like Paul mentioned, it would be a rather odd thing for the gnostics to bring up.

[pilgrimian]

I wish I could accept your logic, but to place God on the same level as us is not possible.

Yeshua used the example Himself of being a Shepherd. And a Shepherd takes care of His sheep. Remember the parable of the lost sheep?....

We think and act as humans; He on the other hand is God.

Some of us are sealed by the Spirit and are in His Body.

You know I have always found it funny that Christians use the same argument of works when they try to justify what they believe.

Paul used the example...does that amuse you?

And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

I know I can recall reading that faith without works is dead.

James was no more inpsired than Paul, was he? Look at the context. James was encouraging a body of believers. If one is saved there will be works...and sometimes because we are such emotionally charged individuals we need a nudge. James was giving a nudge, to put it simply.

Yet we as Christians always through up the “we are saved by grace”. Yes, we are saved by grace, but our relationship with God is deeper than grace.

Feel free to elaborate. I mean, it sounds like a profundity that needs to be quantified. So it isn't quite as profound as it sounds.

We have been having these discussions about the 10 Commandments among Christian Brethren for years. All of the sudden low and behold a lot of folks in the U.S. have decided that the 10 Commandments are important. Why? Aren't the 10 Commandments about works? I mean not killing does that save us? No. Not stealing does that save us? No! We could go on and on, so why are the commandments important? Why is anything outside of professing Christ as our Savior important? I could answer but that isn't my way. I think each person needs to be persuaded in their own mind. If you think once saved is sound, then you may accept it, I merely stated that I feel it is dangerous and then gave an example why.

Actually, most people don't understand how the 10 Commandments...or the other 603 within the Law of Moses are to apply to us today. Most of too lazy or naive to be concerned about our being under the New Covenant as opposed to the Old...they hold to a "better" covenant as the writer of Hebrews calls it, yet point back to the 10 Commandments because it's a tidy list. Paul actually says that we're under the Law of Messiah in Galatians 6:2...

2Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the Law of Christ.

God will never force anyone in to heaven and there is enough scriptural support against the once saved doctrine, that I still say it is a dangerous doctrine.

Guess I'll have to find the "dangerous" bit you wrote earlier. It's not dangerous at all to those of us who have faith in the Spirit that sealed us and lives within us. Sorry to put it so bluntly, but I think it comes down to that. People have no faith in the power of the Spirit in our lives.

Maybe some would think that I am weak in faith maybe some would think I believe in works. I guess I would say I know what the bible teaches, and in my humble opinion I have found enough scriptural support to indicate that the once saved doctrine is not a sound biblical one. I think we should be very careful about what we teach we may have to answer for it someday.

We "may have to answer for it someday"? Weren't you just quoting James? Perhaps you skimmed over this:

James 3:

1Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

[pilgrimian]

one more thing and i hope this does not get me in trouble but its just an observation and thats all-----it means nothing but i was thinking
if you go out in the ''world'' and proclaim osas you will get attacked real quick
Jesus is the stumbling block---as i understand it some people trip over the simple salvation message of or Lord and just can not accept it

I agree. It is too simple for some folks I think.

[Franklin]

Check the context again, Franklin. Peter states that these people are not Believers...they "deny the Lord who bought them"

I have a hard time finding anything that states that these people were not believers. Can you elaborate anymore?

[antsinmypants]

Actually, when I read this "with gnosticism" I immediately thought "along with," not within gnosticism. I understood what Ants meant by saying that. Like Paul mentioned, it would be a rather odd thing for the gnostics to bring up.

:nod "With" doesn't always mean "in".. sometimes it means "at the same time" or "in the same grouping as x" such as my use of "with".

[pilgrimian]

I have a hard time finding anything that states that these people were not believers. Can you elaborate anymore?

2 Peter 2:

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

1 John 2:

18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.

1 John 4:

1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

People that had been side by side with Believers, and may have looked and sounded like true Believers were not, in truth, Believers.

These people deny the Yeshua is the Messiah. As we read in First John we see that anyone like this was never truly a Believer. Their "going showed that none of them belonged to us."

[pilgrimian]

:nod "With" doesn't always mean "in".. sometimes it means "at the same time" or "in the same grouping as x" such as my use of "with".

And I understood it as you'd meant it. In no way do I want to sound snotty, but there aren't too many folks who read up on the gnostics and understand what they believed. Paul's point was well taken. Anyhoooooo, I want to also add that your quoting Kefa for Peter is not offensive to me...and for some out there reading might assist them in seeing how in the world "Cephas" could be his name. Then again, I'm a nerd and I like to understand the derivation of words.

[catchaway]

So, what is the sin that will make you unsaved? :(:

[FollowTheLamb]

Too many people try to believe their version of this issue based on logical reasoning rather than on Scripture. For instance, some would say, "Jesus loves me, so I don't think He would let me lose my salvation." Let us guard against this type of reasoning. What does the Word say? It's good to see people here opening the Book.

We also misunderstand verses that seem to address this topic because we apply the same meaning to the word "save" wherever it appears in Scripture. We must look at the context to see what meaning is being used.

I challenge you to determine what being saved means to you. What do the various Scriptures say about salvation? Make a list based on Scripture. I think you'll find that some aspects of salvation cannot be lost while some aspects can. For instance, I believe that our reward for good service can be lost in the end by careless living (Matt. 24 and 25).

Some of the reasons why we may dither on the issue is because when Scripture points out loss, we think it can only mean loss of salvation (which I take to mean spending eternity in the Lake of Fire).

Anther reason we dither on the issue is likening terms to salvation that may not be synonymous. Is it true that salvation and the kingdom of heaven are the same? (See Matt. 7:21-23). Can you really pinpoint the time and place of the kingdom of heaven and line it up with salvation? Does the kingdom of heaven apply to now, the eternal future, or the 1000-year reign of Jesus? Which aspect of salvation should apply to which aspect of the kingdom of heaven?

You may want to look at my book (free download, URL below). In it I cover the many verses in Matthew and Luke which details how the Lord will judge us at the judgment. You will be surprised as how often the Lord spoke on the subject.

[FollowTheLamb]

I would encourage born again believers to refrain from using the terms saved or Christian when referring to themselves. I suggest instead that we use kingdom terminology to identify ourselves. For instance, based on Matt. 5, say you are "hungering and thirsting for righteousness." You are "merciful." YOu are "reconciled to your brother." YOu do not "swear at all" any oaths to God. YOu "love your enemies."

If you cannot identify with any of these traits of those who are in the kingdom, then now is not the time to argue whether you can lose your salvation. Now is not the time to congratulate yourself on being saved. Now is the time to seek the Lord afresh, to repent of sin, and consecrate yourself to Him as a living sacrifice.

[catchaway]

Too many people try to believe their version of this issue based on logical reasoning rather than on Scripture.

God is the God of logic; He created it. Scripture might not always make sense to us riight away but to say we can't be logical about it, I think is not scriptural itself.

For instance, some would say, "Jesus loves me, so I don't think He would let me lose my salvation." Let us guard against this type of reasoning. What does the Word say?

This is what the Word says:
Romans 8

35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I would encourage born again believers to refrain from using the terms saved or Christian when referring to themselves.

I am not even sure what you meant by that?:confused


I am saved by the blood of the Lamb and I will proclaim that to the whole world if need be.

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

2 Timothy 1:12 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

12For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. :clap

[Jacob]

God is the God of logic; He created it. Scripture might not always make sense to us riight away but to say we can't be logical about it, I think is not scriptural itself.

I think the point he was trying to make was that we should not form Christian doctrine based on logical conclusions that can contradict other scriptures.

Basing eternal security on simply the fact that Jesus loves me, therefore I won't lose my salvation can easily lead into "Jesus loves me, therefore He would never send anyone to hell."

[AnotherOldGuy]

Basing eternal security on simply the fact that Jesus loves me, therefore I won't lose my salvation can easily lead into "Jesus loves me, therefore He would never send anyone to hell."
However, that is an incorrect premise. I won't lose my salvation because I belong to Jesus.

[Resting In Him]

There are many ways to defend OSAS, but to put it in the simplist terms you either believe Jesus is your ETERNAL LIFE SAVIOR or you don't. Do you believe Jesus is your Savior and eternal life? Do you believe in His sufficiency? The only IF is to believe. It's a question that needs to be settled once and for all if you are going to have assurance. There is no assurance of eternal life if one believes you can lose salvation. This is tragic! :(:

One of my favorite scriptural doctrines that helped me in understanding OSAS pertains to the two natures, i.e. the "old man" (Adam) and the "new man" (Christ), or the "first Adam" (Adam) and the "second Adam" (Christ).

As we were born with the nature of the "first Adam", so we are born-again in the "second Adam" having received His nature. Our new nature is created after Christ and therefore perfected forever in Him. The "old man" is to be reckoned dead and the "new man" alive.

We live with two natures - the old and the new which is our main battle zone. The fleshly "old adam" wars against the spirit "new adam".

Because Jesus lives so will we live forever with Him in glory, for the spirit man IS life and that eternally.

It really is that simple - if you believe, and God has given to each of us a measure of faith by His grace. Enough faith to believe in eternal life.

Now without saving faith there is no salvation. But we have been given grace through faith which is the gift of God to believe on our Savior Jesus Christ. Having received that precious gift we are sealed forever by the Holy Spirit and "kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" - 1Peter 1:5.

Earlier in this thread someone said that the OSAS doctrine was dangerous. Yes it is if you believe OSAS gives us license to sin. But I believe just the opposite for if we can't believe unto Eternal Life through Jesus Christ as being a present possession and that for eternity, then that is a dangerous position - IMO. To me, this is doubting the sufficiency of Christ with His suffering and resurrection victory.

[831]

Hi All.

Fifty Reasons Why A Saved Person Can NEVER be Lost
And A Brief rebuttal of Each Point

By Jeff Paton

Each point is a statement of proof by one who believes that these verses establish that a saved person can never be lost. My response in kind will be brief and concise. This will not answer every question someone has about these proof-texts. In most cases, these assertions of Eternal Security are answered in greater detail in other articles on the linked site. Because of this, I leave the reader to research the issue further on their own.

As you read each "proof passage," ask yourself, "Does this say that a believer cannot lose their salvation?" "Does one have to presuppose that Once Saved Always Saved is true in order to make the passage say that 'A saved person can NEVER be lost?' " "Does one have to read Eternal Security into each verse in order to get Eternal Security "out of" each verse?"

1. ETERNAL LIFE IS ETERNAL! John 3:15, 10:28, Romans 6:23, 1 John 2:25, 5:11, 5:13, etc.; By definition eternal means never ending. Once a believer has eternal life it can never be taken away. If it could be it would not be eternal!
Eternal also means that it has no beginning! If you had to gain it, you don’t have eternal life according to this argument! This argument ignores the conditions of present tense belief (John 3:15,) and present tense hearing and following (John 10:25-28,) in these verses. It fails to understand that the “life” is eternal, and not our possession of it.


2. EVERLASTING LIFE IS EVERLASTING! Daniel 12:2; John 3:16, 3:36, 5:24, 6:40, 6:47; Romans 6:22; etc.; Likewise, everlasting life can never end. It is everlasting regardless of the believer’s behavior.
Regardless of behavior? This is rank antinomianism! It renders all exhortations to holiness in the Scriptures to be absolutely useless. This is the same error as is noted in point #1.


3. IT IS GOD’S WILL! John 6:39; It is God’s will that Christ lose none of those who come to Him.
Don’t confuse God’s will with God’s decree. God is not willing that ANY should perish, but some will. Jesus said that it was not God’s will for Him to lose any; but yet, he admits to losing Judas. Jn. 17:12. Keep in mind, one must have something in order to lose it!


4. HEAVEN IS RESERVED FOR HIM! 1 Peter 1:4; An inheritance in heaven is reserved for the believer.
For the BELIEVER, not the one who once believed, or presently has a fruitless, non-saving faith. The Scriptures never promise these things to those who cease to remain, abide, and continue in the faith, or to those who cease to believe!

5. SALVATION (INHERITANCE) IS INCORRUPTIBLE! 1 Peter 1:4; No one can corrupt something God has made incorruptible.
Thank God that the inheritance is imperishable! We know that it will be there for genuine believers! But don’t miss it! It is there through faith, (v.5) not unbelief! The inheritance is incorruptible, not our possession of it!


6. SALVATION (INHERITANCE) CANNOT BE DEFILED! 1 Peter 1:4; No one can defile something which God says cannot be defiled.
It won’t be defiled or fade away! It will be there in heaven as surely as there is a God! It is no promise that every believer will endure to the end to receive it! Even if someone fails the grace of God, this would have no impact whatsoever on the inheritance. (Which is not salvation, but rewards in heaven.)


7. HE IS SEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT! Ephesians 1:13; No power in Heaven or earth can break God’s seal.
There is no Scripture verse in Heaven or Earth that says that we cannot break God’s seal! Must they prey on the ignorance of their readers to get them to believe something the Scriptures never say in order to prove their point? Ephesians 4:30 warns us not to grieve the Holy Spirit, the very One who is our Seal. A warning that serves no purpose if there is no danger!
Maybe they should take off their theological glasses long enough so they can stop seeing things that are just not there!

8. HE IS SEALED UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION! Ephesians 4:30; The believer is sealed until the day God redeems his body.
Hogwash! There is not a single reputable translation of Scripture that says “until the day God redeems His body." There is no meaning of sealing "until" the day of redemption! Those theological glasses that they are wearing are putting words and meaning where there is none! We are sealed “for” the day of redemption. Any Greek Lexicon will prove it, and any reputable English version will too!

9. HOLY SPIRIT WILL ABIDE FOREVER! John 14:16-17; The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is permanent.
The context of the passage is to the twelve disciples and not to the whole world. It was written to believers, not to those who cease to believe. To apply a promise to those the passage never intended to include is the only way to rescue this false doctrine! Nothing in this passage guarantees or states the impossibility of falling from the faith. Another theological interjection!


10. HE IS PRESERVED FOREVER! Psalm 37:28; God preserves the saint forever.
“For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His godly ones.” (NASB). “Saints,” or “godly ones” is who the promise is for. He preserves the faithful, not the unfaithful! There is no promise in Scripture that God preserves the unfaithful!

11. HE IS BORN OF GOD! John 1:12-13 The believer actually becomes God’s child and cannot be “unborn.”
Of course, this passage says nothing of the sort! No child in life or spirit is ever “unborn.” Such language is not in anybodies vocabulary except for those who wish to invent a pathetic argument! People do not become “unborn,” they die! They can die both physically, and spiritually!

12. HE IS A NEW CREATURE! 2 Corinthians 5:17; God has made the believer a new creature and no one can “uncreate” him.
Where? Must the whole argument for Eternal Security rest in what the Scriptures do not say? Apparently so! Nothing within this passage speaks to the issue at hand! Foolish theological interjection!

13. HE IS CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS! Ephesians 2:10; The saint was created in his Saviour.
And as the verse continues, "to good works!" Not for sin and unbelief! This proves more for the cause of holiness and the power of God, and nothing for some invented theory of Eternal Security!

14. HE IS PRESERVED UNTO THE HEAVENLY KINGDOM! 2 Timothy 4:18; The believer is preserved like Paul since God is no respecter of persons.
You seem to miss the statement that goes before this! “The Lord will deliver me from every evil deed.” Paul’s hope was not based on faith in some false doctrine, but in the fact of the power of God to continue to deliver him from evil deeds. This passage is personal, and not a universal promise to all who ever had a scrape with grace! We can apply this to genuine believers who have the holiness that is wrought by God. No universal promise of Eternal Security here… except in the minds of those who read it into it!


15. HE IS KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD! 1 Peter 1:5; Since God is keeping him, the believer cannot fall from salvation.
And as the passage continues with a condition ....... "THROUGH FAITH!" It is astonishing how Eternal Security advocates conveniently leave off the condition! Rebellion and continued sinning is not faith! God only "keeps" as long as the condition is met.

16. CHRIST HAS PRAYED FOR HIM! John 17:11; Jesus prayed that God would keep all who He had given Him.
And he lost Judas anyway! Jn. 17:12. God will not violate the freedom that He has given man!

17. WORKS CANNOT AFFECT HIS SALVATION! Romans 11:6; Salvation is not gained by works, so it cannot be lost by works.
“Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.” James 2:17. Paul is arguing the point that works cannot merit salvation, and James is arguing that one cannot be saved by a fruitless faith. They are not in opposition in any way. Nowhere is it said by Paul, or the Scriptures, that works cannot affect salvation! You have the choice; you can believe your theories, or you can believe the Bible! The Bible never says that sin cannot affect salvation!.

18. HIS FAITH IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS! Romans 4:5; It is faith which brings salvation to a believer.
And, it was not a fruitless faith, for, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?” James 2:21. True faith brings forth good fruit. A faith that brings forth bad fruit is not a saving faith. (John 15). Works, or working for the purpose of gaining salvation voids grace. Works that result from the fruit of salvation validate faith, but do not attempt in anyway to merit salvation.

19. NOTHING CAN SEPARATE HIM FROM THE LOVE OF CHRIST! Romans 8:38-39; Nothing material, immaterial, past, present, or future can separate a believer from Christ’s love.
The Bible says otherwise! “Keep yourselves in the love of God!” Jude 21. The passage from Romans 8 deals with the security of the believer who remains “in” Christ, and no other. It speaks of external forces that attack the believer, but some may see these afflictions as giving the impression that God is punishing them, or that they have fallen out of the grace of God. Paul is saying that the love of Christ is with the believer regardless of the great persecution that they may suffer. Nothing is said about an impossibility of being separated from Christ because of rebellion and sin! It is not speaking of loss of salvation, but the separation from Christ’s love! Sin is not an external force, it is a personal choice. Nothing in this verse promises the apostate any security!

20. SALVATION IS OF THE LORD! Jonah 2:9; Salvation is all God’s work. He bought it and provided it.
And sin is the work of man! So what?!!!! This proves nothing! God does not force salvation on anyone!

21. GOD IS ABLE TO KEEP HIM! 2 Timothy 1:12; The believer’s salvation rests on God’s omnipotent ability to keep him.
God is able. This does not promise in any way that God will keep an apostate against their choice! I have nothing to fear, God is all-powerful, and will not lose His grip on me, or His promises to me as long as I do not cease to trust Him. This promise is to believers, and not to those who once believed.

22. HE IS PROMISED NOT TO COME INTO CONDEMNATION! John 5:24; This promise would be broken if even one believer fell into eternal condemnation.
The promise is only to those who have a present tense “belief.” It is not to those who started in the faith, and thereafter faltered. Only the one who believes right now has the promise of "no condemnation."

23. HE IS PROMISED TO NEVER PERISH! John 10:27-28; Every saint has an unconditional promise to never perish.
The promise is only to the “sheep.” The sheep are defined by the verse. They (present tense) hear and follow the Shepard. Those that continue in sin are not hearing, and are certainly not following the sinless Shepard! They are not by definition what Jesus calls “sheep.” They are not sheep, and they are not benefactors of the promise that they shall never perish! They are only secure in as far as they continue hearing and following, that is what the text says!

24. HE WILL NEVER BE CAST OUT! John 6:37; Under no condition will any believer be cast out from Christ or Heaven.
The verse is dealing with people coming to Him, not believers staying in Him! All this is saying is that no one who comes to Him should have any fear that they would be turned away. No mysterious lucky lotto of fate that leaves the majority of people abandoned without hope. The Gospel is truly to whosoever will.

25. ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER FOR GOOD TO HIM! Romans 8:28; It would not be good for one to lose his salvation.
To him "WHO LOVES GOD!" As the passage says. Not to those who abandon, forsake, or continue in rebellion. Willfully walking in sin is not loving God!

26. HE IS IN CHRIST’S HAND! John 10:28; The believer is in his Saviours hand.
See #23.

27. HE IS IN THE FATHER’S HAND! John 10:29-30; The saint is in his heavenly Father’s hand.
Who is in His hand? The sheep. See #23.

28. HE IS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE, A SHEEP! John 10:27-28; A sheep represents a saved person and cannot change from being one.
Really? So your saying that no one can get saved? If a sheep cannot become a goat, then a goat cannot become a sheep! This passage says NOTHING about it being impossible to revert back to their old state. It speaks only of the security of those who are hearing and following right now.

29. GOD’S MERCY NEVER ENDS! Titus 3:5; The believer is saved by God’s mercy and it endures forever (Psalm 136).
Do you really believe that this statement is teaching Eternal Security? God is always merciful, but that has nothing to do with any mythical doctrine of irrevocable assurance, or salvation without faith! God's mercy was there before anyone ever had faith, but that doesn't mean they were saved before faith just because God's mercy endures forever! Nothing of irrevocable salvation is stated, or even implied in this verse.

30. GOD CANNOT LIE! Titus 1:2; Once God has saved a believer, he cannot go back on His word.
God says, “He who sins is of the devil,” 1 Jn. 3:9. “The wages of sin is death,” Romans 6:23. “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” Ezekiel 18:4. GOD CANNOT LIE! This passage has nothing to do with a doctrine of Eternal Security!

31. HIS SINS ARE GONE FOREVER! Psalm 103:12; Micah 7:19; Isaiah 38:17, 44:22; Hebrews 10:17; The saints sins are gone.
There is not a single passage in all of Scripture that says all future sins of the believer are gone! The Bible tells us that only sins past are atoned for. Romans 3:25; 1 Peter 1:9. The atonement is a provision that is available through our Advocate if we sin.

32. HE SHALL BE LIKE CHRIST! 1 John 3:2; It is a certainty that the believer will be like Christ.
This again, has nothing to do with any promise that all believers will never fall away! Those that are believers, or died as believers, will see Him in all His glory.

33. GOD SEES HIM AS ALREADY GLORIFIED! Romans 8:30; The saint is as good as glorified in God’s sight.
This passage has nothing to do with the individual believer apart from their participation in the Body, the Church. The Body, the Bride of Christ is glorified and predestined. If one fails to continue in the faith and the Body of Christ, this verse has no application to them.

34. HE IS BORN OF INCORRUPTIBLE SEED! 1 Peter 1:23; The Christian’s new birth was from incorruptible seed.
The seed is incorruptible, not the persons possession of that seed! See the previous verse to see who this applies to! “ Seeing ye have PURIFIED your souls in OBEYING the truth through the Spirit unto UNFEIGNED LOVE of the brethren, see that ye LOVE ANOTHER with a PURE HEART fervently.” This cannot possibly describe those that continue in sin and rebellion. They are not pure, they are not obeying, they demonstrate that they do not love the brethren nor God. They do not have a pure heart, and are thereby excluded from being possessors of this incorruptible seed.

35. HE WILL APPEAR WITH CHRIST IN GLORY! Colossians 3:4; The saint is promised to appear with Christ when He returns.
The “saint,” and not the “sinner.” You finally got one right!

36. HE IS HIDDEN IN CHRIST! Colossians 3:3; The believer is dead to the world and alive in Christ.
Colossians 3:4 says this applies only to those who have made Christ their life, not excuses and sin! Security is “in” Christ. One cannot live in rebellion and be “in” Christ at the same time.

37. HE IS DEAD TO AND FREED FROM SIN! Romans 6:2-7; Sin can no longer affect the saint’s destiny. He is freed from it.
More hogwash! The passage says nothing of the sort! It is speaking about freedom from the power of sin. Freedom from the oppressive slavery to sinning! Paul describes this further, “But now being made free FROM sin, and BECOME SERVANTS to God, ye have your FRUIT UNTO HOLINESS, and the END everlasting life.” 6:22. And, “Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness.” 6:16.

38. THE LORD IS NOW PRAYING FOR HIM! Hebrews 7:25; The Lord is presently interceding in the believer’s behalf.
Jesus prays for the believer, He does not believe and repent for the unbeliever! Jesus prayed for Judas, and Judas was still lost. (You can’t lose that which you never had!) (Jn. 17:12).

39. GOD WILL FINISH WHAT HE STARTED! Phillipians 1:6; God began the work of salvation and will finish it.
This is not a promise but a statement towards those who “fellowship in the gospel FROM THE FIRST DAY UNTIL NOW.” V.5 Because of their faithfulness, Paul thought it was “meet” for him to think this of them! V.7. No Eternal Security here, or anywhere else in Scripture!


40. HE HAS ETERNAL REDEMPTION! Hebrews 9:12; Every believer has been eternally redeemed from his sins.
The provision of redemption is eternal. There is no promise here that any man is guaranteed to have eternal possession of it. The redemption of Christ would be eternal whether anyone ever believed it, or accepted it, or was ever saved by it!

[4everHis]

I'm guilty of keeping things simple.
I simply think of salvation as God offering me the GIFT of ETERNAL LIFE.
I accept that gift and give my heart and life to HIM. He saves me and writes my name in the Book of Life in heaven.

As a human, I have good days and bad days. Some days I feel so close to God that it's amazing. Other days, it's 110 degrees in the shade, I have to sit in the hot heat for the tow truck to arrive or I have to mow the lawn and someone walks up and wants to sell me magazines or something, I get short tempered and I am not a very nice person. I may not curse God but salvation seems far from me on those days. Or, lets say something horrible happens to a family member, do you curse God when these things happen?

I'm not saying I do but lets say you do and just throw in the towel. Give up. Say.........God, if you were "REALLY" there, this wouldn't have happened to me, your child who loves you.

Does God erase your name from the book and say, well, gee, john, or jane no longer believes in me, I guess they no longer are mine.....

I don't think so, GOD who GIVES us the GIFT of eternal life, will not take it away because we have a bad day and get mad at Him.

Am I making it too simple?

[FollowTheLamb]

4EverHis,

You are not making it too simple. Salvation is so simple a child could understand it. But it is also so rich that we can never get tired of talking about it!

[FollowTheLamb]

It will help if we consider the context in which the word "salvation" appears. Now in the book of Romans, we find that Paul is interested in righteousness. As sinners, we were unrighteous. As people of faith, we are righteous. Paul doesn't simply say that we are saved by faith, but that we are justified by faith. We are not justified by works, laws, or circumcision (Rom. 4). In this book, salvation is righteousness and justification.

When you think of salvation, do you think of these terms also? They are biblical ways to think of your salvation.

Paul in Romans chapter 5 introduces a new thought about our salvation, that through Jesus we have victory over the flesh life--"we shall be saved by His lfe" (5:10). If we believe in Jesus, then the old man has no more power over us (6:6). Then he introduces something we can lose about this aspect of our salvation. If we continue in the flesh, then we will "die", but if we through the Spirit put to death the deeds of the body, we will "live" (8:13).

Paul's use of the terms "die" and "live" tells me that I can lose something God wants me to have as a result of faith in Jesus.

Jesus died that we may have victory over sin. We can LOSE that victory by living after the flesh. Furthermore, if we persist in sin to death, then we'll LOSE another aspect of our salvation--a good testimony from the Lord before all the holy angels. We'll be labeled hypocrites.

When we consider whether we can lose our salvation or not, I think it helps if you break down the different elements of our salvation and consider what Scripture says about each. I hope this illustration bears out value of doing so.

Jacob,
You were correct in your answer.

[AnotherOldGuy]

Paul in Romans chapter 5 introduces a new thought about our salvation, that through Jesus we have victory over the flesh life--"we shall be saved by His lfe" (5:10).
Why not show the whole verse?

(Rom 5:10) For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

We were reconciled. Having been reconciled we shall be saved. Not might be, or could be - we shall be. Not by what we do, but by His life.


If we believe in Jesus, then the old man has no more power over us (6:6). Then he introduces something we can lose about this aspect of our salvation.
But you just said that the old man has no more power. Taking away our salvation IS power.



If we continue in the flesh, then we will "die", but if we through the Spirit put to death the deeds of the body, we will "live" (8:13).
You do realize that every one of those Romans died.

(Rom 8:12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors; not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.

(Rom 8:13) For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

(Rom 8:14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

(Rom 8:15) For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."


There in verse 13 - but if by the Spirit - that doesn't fit the passage. Same with verse 11:

(Rom 8:9) But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

(Rom 8:10) And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

(Rom 8:11) But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

There's that 'but if' again. It doesn't fit. In verse 10 he already qualified 'if Christ is in you'.


A little research: "Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon"
Speaking of 'ei' - translated as 'if' in the above verses:
"in citing a fact as a ground of argument or appeal, as surely as, since"

Hmmm - 'since'

Now look at the passage:

(Rom 8:9) But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

(Rom 8:10) And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

(Rom 8:11) But since the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

(Rom 8:12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors; not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.

(Rom 8:13) For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but since by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

(Rom 8:14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

(Rom 8:15) For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."

That fits the context perfectly. Those Romans DID die, but they also DID live again.



Paul's use of the terms "die" and "live" tells me that I can lose something God wants me to have as a result of faith in Jesus.
Indeed, your flesh can obtain a 'premature' demise.



We can LOSE that victory by living after the flesh.
No, we can't. It's not our victory to lose. It was Jesus' victory.



we'll LOSE another aspect of our salvation--a good testimony from the Lord before all the holy angels. We'll be labeled hypocrites.
No, but we can lose a good testimony before men.



When we consider whether we can lose our salvation or not, I think it helps if you break down the different elements of our salvation and consider what Scripture says about each.
I agree. salvation is the consequence of belonging to the Lord. It's not a reward for 'being good'.

[831]

Hi All.

I agree with you 4everhis if you look at my original post on this thread you would see that, I quote: I find that if you try to break things down to the simplest they could be, that makes it easier to understand. Where this one is concerned I see it this way.

Salvation is a gift from God & God does not break his promises or takes away any gift he freely gives. There for I see it as you can not loose your salvation as God never takes back any gift he has given to anyone. Also Any denial of eternal security is, in its essence, a belief that we must maintain our own salvation by our own good works. This is completely antithetical to salvation by grace. We are saved because of Christ's merits, not our own (Romans 4:3-8). To claim that we must obey God's Word or live a godly life to maintain our salvation is equal to saying that Jesus' death was not sufficient to pay the penalty for our sins.

I posted my last one about 40 reasons why you can not lose your salvation because so may people on this thread seem to think that you can. When you look at What the Bible says & you read it in full context, you see that you can not lose it. How can you lose what has been given to you as a gift, you can't as its not yours to lose. It was a gift & as I have posted above God has never taken away any gift he has freely given to anyone. So just going of that, it makes it impossible to lose. Lets look at what the Bible says.

Salvation is trusting or believing in, by faith, that Jesus Christ paid for your sins with His blood on the cross of Calvary.

"He that BELIEVETH on the Son hath everlasting life:. . ." John 3:36

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

The Bible makes it clear that OUR WORKS has nothing whatsoever to do with our salvation.

We don't receive it by our works — and we don't keep it by our works!

" NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,. . ." Titus 3:5

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9

Salvation is the free gift of God. If we had to work to keep it — it would not be a free gift — and God would be a liar!

". . . the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

". . .by the righteousness of one THE FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life." Romans 5:18

"(For he saith, I have heard thee in a TIME accepted, and in THE DAY OF SALVATION have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted TIME; behold, now is THE DAY OF SALVATION.)" 2 Corinthians 6:2

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3

"Being BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." 1 Peter 1:23

"Beloved, NOW are we the SONS OF GOD, . . ." 1 John 3:2

"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of ADOPTION, whereby we cry, Abba, FATHER." Romans 8:15

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, SHALL BE ABLE TO SEPARATE US from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:29

". . .for he hath said, I WILL NEVER LEAVE THEE, nor forsake thee." Hebrews 13:5

". . . and, lo, I am with you ALWAY, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matthew 28:20

He that believeth on the Son HATH EVERLASTING LIFE:.. ." John 3:36

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE,. . ." 1 John 5:13

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE,. . ." John 5:24

". . . him that cometh to me I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT." John 6:37

"And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power:" Colossians 2:10

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL. . . For by one offering he hath PERFECTED FOR EVER them that are sanctified." Hebrews 10:10,14

"Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED IN JESUS CHRIST, and called:" Jude 1

"And THE LORD. . . WILL PRESERVE ME unto his heavenly kingdom:. . ." 2 Timothy 4:18

"Who are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:5

"Now unto him that is able TO KEEP YOU from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy," Jude 24

"Wherefore he is able also to save them to the UTTERMOST that come unto God by him,. . ." Hebrews 7:25

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby YE ARE SEALED unto the day of redemption." Ephesians 4:30

". . .after that ye believed, YE WERE SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise," Ephesians 1:13

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

"For we are MEMBERS OF HIS BODY, of his flesh, and of his bones." Ephesians 5:30

"Now ye are the BODY OF CHRIST, and members in particular." 1 Corinthians 12:18

"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF." 2 Timothy 2:13

"It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. . .To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit MAY BE SAVED in the day of the Lord Jesus." 1 Corinthians 5:1,5

". . .he that BELIEVETH NOT GOD hath made him a LIAR; . . ." 1 John 5:10

"He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool:. . ." Proverbs 28:26

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from THE SIMPLICITY that is in Christ." 2 Corinthians 11:3

"Making the word of God of none effect through your TRADITION,. . ." Mark 7:13

". . . and all OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSES are as filthy rags;. . ." Isaiah 64:6

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;. . ." Matthew 7:21

Almighty God holds the saved within His all-powerful hand, Jesus said. It is stronger than any lamination process that could ever be devised. God’s seal cannot be broken under any circumstances. Paul wrote about Jesus and those who truly believe in Him for their salvation: “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory” (Eph. 1:13-14).

Ephesians 2:8-10:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."


Paul wrote that a believer should strive never to disappoint or grieve God. But in the next thought, he assures that the believer is eternally secure, no matter what: “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption” (Eph. 4:30).

I hope that this clears up any misunderstandings that anyone may have on this subject.

God Bless you all
831

[ohbibleguy]

Yeshua used the example Himself of being a Shepherd. And a Shepherd takes care of His sheep. Remember the parable of the lost sheep?....

Yes but Jesus is not one of the lost sheep, He is the Shepard.



Some of us are sealed by the Spirit and are in His Body.


So then I may take this that you feel that the rest of us are not sealed by His Spirit and therefore not part of his body of believers. I think this is called judging.


Paul used the example...does that amuse you?


And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.


No what does amuse me is when people take thoughts out of context and also when they don’t realize that words have more than one definition. Funny - Strangely or suspiciously odd; curious.

No, I find nothing humorous about the writings of Paul on grace; however, I do agree with Peter that some of Paul’s writings are more complex and therefore you have to work a bit harder to understand them.

2 Peter 3:15-16 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

(hmm what do you know people trying to learn more about Christ by reading the writings of Paul and wresting to their own destruction, they don’t appear to be non-believers)

For example by a quick glance at this next text, we could most assuredly draw a conclusion that we play a part in salvation:

2 Cor 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

However, that is not what the context of the scripture is saying. Paul is probably one of the most misquoted bible writers when it comes to just about any subject. To answer your question


James was no more inpsired than Paul, was he?


No and neither is Paul more inspired than James, John, Peter, or any other writers of the books that God moved them to write. I clearly struck a nerve of what you believe and for that I apologize. However, please do not accuse me of taking things out of context because they happen to disagree with your personal beliefs. Like I said we could discuss the issue of once saved for a long time and your pointed arguments would not persuade me, nor mine you. I will stop at this point because I do not believe it healthy to continue in this course of discourse with you. You cleary take pride in pontificating and we could write back and forth picking each other apart for years and it would do nothing to build up the body of Christ. I find no pleasure in this type discourse, nor does it do anything to further the body of Christ; rather it tears down the body of believers. I pray the Lord bless and keep you until the day of His coming.

[FollowTheLamb]

AnotherOldGuy wrote:

A little research: "Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon"
Speaking of 'ei' - translated as 'if' in the above verses:
"in citing a fact as a ground of argument or appeal, as surely as, since"

Hmmm - 'since'

Now look at the passage:

(Rom 8:9) But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

(Rom 8:10) And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

(Rom 8:11) But since the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

(Rom 8:12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors; not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.

(Rom 8:13) For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but since by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

(Rom 8:14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

(Rom 8:15) For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."

That fits the context perfectly. Those Romans DID die, but they also DID live again.


AnotherOldGuy, thank you for addressing my words. :wave In chapter 7 of Romans, Paul wrote about a conflict he had in the flesh. He wanted to do good but found himself following another law in himself (7:13-21). Though he was saved, he was not yet experiencing the victory over the flesh that Jesus came to give through faith. If you apply the above Romans 8 verses to Paul's conflict in Romans 7, you'll find the "since" was not true until he saw the truth of identifying with Christ's resurrection life, of reckoning the old man dead and being alive to God in Christ (6:6-14).

When you replace if with since in Romans 8, you inadvertently deny the struggle that any believer may experience after believing in Jesus for salvation. In Romans chapter 6:11-14 Paul commands the reader to reckon himself dead to sin and alive to God. He assumes the reader does not yet know this glorious reality of victory over sin. To read many of the posts on this board, many believers still don't have this victory. There's no "since" in their lives yet. They are still living after the flesh. If they continue in the word, as Jesus said, the truth will set them free.

I've been a student of the Bbile long enough to know that the meaning of a word lies in the context of the passage it's used. In this case, "if" fits the context and the Bible translators got it right.

If we turn to the flesh and resist the Spirit's desire for us to reckon it dead, I do not believe we can lose our salvation overall. The "die" in 8:13 is not physical death, for you will die whether you follow the Spirit or not. I think Paul had something more in mind with this usage of death, but that aspect needs further study. To be carnally minded is death. In 7:10-13, Paul tried to follow God's commandments and found death. Once he died to the law and lived to God, he found life again.

If what I wrote makes no sense, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[AnotherOldGuy]

When you replace if with since in Romans 8, you inadvertently deny the struggle that any believer may experience after believing in Jesus for salvation.
But this passage is not about that struggle.


(Rom 8:1) There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

(Rom 8:15) For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."

He speaks of the struggle in chapter seven. Here he is speaking of the security of being in Christ.



In Romans chapter 6:11-14 Paul commands the reader to reckon himself dead to sin and alive to God. He assumes the reader does not yet know this glorious reality of victory over sin. To read many of the posts on this board, many believers still don't have this victory.
Not just this board, but Christianity in general.



There's no "since" in their lives yet. They are still living after the flesh. If they continue in the word, as Jesus said, the truth will set them free.
You assume that all who call themselves 'Christian' are truly "in Christ". But there are some who want to play both sides of the fence and there are temporal consequences.



I've been a student of the Bbile long enough to know that the meaning of a word lies in the context of the passage it's used. In this case, "if" fits the context and the Bible translators got it right.
I don't think so.

It probably does fit the 'topic' context that the historical church espoused. The midievel church was into "power and control".

But there also a structural, grammatical context in which "if" does not fit.

The "if" has already been established.

(Rom 8:9) But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

That establishes that the Spirit is in them, therefore since it is, "He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you" and "since by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."


(Rom 8:15) For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."

He repeats that they did receive the Spirit, so the context is 'since' and not 'if'.





If we turn to the flesh and resist the Spirit's desire for us to reckon it dead, I do not believe we can lose our salvation overall.
You can lose part of it?


The "die" in 8:13 is not physical death, for you will die whether you follow the Spirit or not.
How do you know that? He just said "He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies".



To be carnally minded is death.
That is true. But Paul is not speaking to the carnally minded:

(Rom 8:7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

(Rom 8:8) So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

(Rom 8:9) But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.





In 7:10-13, Paul tried to follow God's commandments and found death. Once he died to the law and lived to God, he found life again.
That's exactly the purpose of the law.

[pilgrimian]

Yes but Jesus is not one of the lost sheep, He is the Shepard.

I know...we are the sheep.

So then I may take this that you feel that the rest of us are not sealed by His Spirit and therefore not part of his body of believers. I think this is called judging.

I never said you were not sealed. "Some of us" means Believers...if you are a Believer, and it seems to me that you are then you're sealed.

No what does amuse me is when people take thoughts out of context and also when they don’t realize that words have more than one definition. Funny - Strangely or suspiciously odd; curious.

No, I find nothing humorous about the writings of Paul on grace; however, I do agree with Peter that some of Paul’s writings are more complex and therefore you have to work a bit harder to understand them.

2 Peter 3:15-16 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

(hmm what do you know people trying to learn more about Christ by reading the writings of Paul and wresting to their own destruction, they don’t appear to be non-believers)

You know of these people?

Well then it would not be that salvation isn't eternal, but simply that these people misunderstand the Scriptures and aren't Believers in the first place. The misuse of Scripture doesn't nullify eternal security.

For example by a quick glance at this next text, we could most assuredly draw a conclusion that we play a part in salvation:

2 Cor 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Not really. Paul differentiates godly sorrow from worldly sorrow. Theirs is godly sorrow...it proves that the Spirit is at work in their lives. It proves that they are truly Believers.

8Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it—I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while— 9yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 11See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter. 12So even though I wrote to you, it was not on account of the one who did the wrong or of the injured party, but rather that before God you could see for yourselves how devoted to us you are. 13By all this we are encouraged...

You say that they play a role in their salvation. However, it is much more obvious to me in this passage that the Spirit is at work in their lives and it is He who is reflected in their godly sorrow.

However, that is not what the context of the scripture is saying. Paul is probably one of the most misquoted bible writers when it comes to just about any subject. To answer your question