EFCA ?? Opinions wanted.

[sealed]

Anyone have experience/ opinion about the Evangelical Free Church Association? I am searching for a church that is closer to my home and one I am considering visiting happens to belong to the EFCA.

[Eternally]

Yup!

We almost joined one recently. LOVED it!

However, our top question we had asked before getting involved was did they believe in eternal security. They said they did.

Found out when we were being interviewed for joining that a deacon didn't beleive in OSAS (Once saved always saved), but was working to stay saved.

The pastor then told us, that while HE believed in eternal security, it was NOT an essential doctrine. (He didn't have a concern with a decon not believing in eternal security)

The EFCA national board says either arminian OR calvinism is OK, neither are taught as wrong or right.


Besides, that, if that doesn't matter to you, and it may not, it was good. no altar call or chance to receive Christ given in the service, you don't have to be baptized to join the church, but they encourage it.

[donf]

My understanding is that Chuck Swindoll has an Evangelical Free background which says a lot for the group. I have visited an E-Free church and they were right on and very solid biblically. I know that the eternal security is an issue for some within the E-Free environment, but even in our Baptist church, that issue is not solidly agreed upon. Just to chime in, I am so glad that my eternal security is grounded in the faithfulness of God and His promises rather than my own stumbling nature.

Blessings,

don

[sealed]

Thanks for your replies! The Independent Baptist Church that I have been going to teaches eternal security. I just wish it was alot closer to my home.:(:
I do believe in OSAS. That is a biggie with me.


" Just to chime in, I am so glad that my eternal security is grounded in the faithfulness of God and His promises rather than my own stumbling nature. :nod

[kjlistrom]

I was a member of a EF in Alexandria, MN for 8 years.
I grew in Christ there every day, I have sence moved to Or.
I sure miss that EF Church, there isn't one here in Redmond.

[sealed]

thanks KJ. :):

[AnyDayNow]

Anyone have experience/ opinion about the Evangelical Free Church Association? I am searching for a church that is closer to my home and one I am considering visiting happens to belong to the EFCA.

Here's their website:

Evangelical Free churches (http://www.efca.org/)

In their doctrinal statements you will find that they are pre-millennial (#11), although not solidly pre-trib. My wife and I attended one for more than 3 years. They started going PDC, so we left.

[OwnedByJesus]

I used to attend an E-Free for a long time until I moved. I liked it, it was much like the Baptist chruch now attend.
When I was going to the E-Free we had a couple of different pastors, each with his own style but the message was always clear and pointed to Christ in what He has done for us; who we were and who we are in Him.

[sealed]

Here's their website:

Evangelical Free churches (http://www.efca.org/)

In their doctrinal statements you will find that they are pre-millennial (#11), although not solidly pre-trib. My wife and I attended one for more than 3 years. They started going PDC, so we left.


AnyDayNow, What is PDC?

Owned, Thank you!

[carmen]

PDC = Purpose Driven Church, a book on church growth and focus by Rick Warren. Opinions on the book vary, and some have left their church when the methods in it are implemented.

[sealed]

Oh. I am not familiar with that book. Guess I need to check it out.
Thanks!

[AnyDayNow]

Oh. I am not familiar with that book. Guess I need to check it out.
Thanks!

PDC = Purpose Driven Church
PDL = Purpose Driven Life

The PDL book is easier to find, but I wouldn't suggest you "check out" either one that much. :lol

It's just my opinion, so take or leave it. But I have read PDL and parts of the PDC. The aim of PDC is to build a church by numbers, throwing doctrinal instruction and hard-buy gospel (that which speaks openly of hell) to the wind. PDL teaches a salvation that is largely unclear about WHAT someone is actually being saved from. Kinda like a dumbing down of Christianity 101 with Christian Theological "Correctness" thrown in.

NOT the direction my wife and I were going in...so we left.

[carmen]

I am not particularly supportive of Rick Warren or his methods; however, I did read PDL and did the study. I didn't find so much that it taught salvation, so much as that it was assumed that those that read it would already be saved. It was very weak milk, IMHO, and I didn't get much out of it.


EDITED TO ADD: I didn't want to turn this into a Warren thread again, but did want to add another opinion to what AnyDayNow said, just to give a different perspective :):

[AnyDayNow]

...EDITED TO ADD: I didn't want to turn this into a Warren thread again, but did want to add another opinion to what AnyDayNow said, just to give a different perspective :):

A good idea, Carmen. :):

I might also add that not every Eve Free church uses PDC/PDL. It just so happened the one my wife and I attended did. I wanted to explain why PDL caused us to leave.

[sealed]

Thanks guys! :):

One more question since i have not read either of the books...if you had not read them would you have been aware that the church was employing those tactics? Do they anounce that they are following book guidelines or is it something you recognized becasue you had read the book?

[carmen]

Our church announced the study we had of PDL; it was something we did at homegroup studies.

[AnyDayNow]

Thanks guys! :):

One more question since i have not read either of the books...if you had not read them would you have been aware that the church was employing those tactics? Do they anounce that they are following book guidelines or is it something you recognized becasue you had read the book?

The EF church we attended was head pastored by a man who had married my wife and I. The church announced it was going through the PDL. I asked this pastor if the pastoral staff was also following the PDC. He said yes, we left. It's just my opinion, but the PDL I can abide to a certain extent. However, if the leadership wants to follow the PDC, who's real aim is merely numbers growth for the church, even at the expense of correct doctrine, then I can no longer follow them.

[Pegmo]

I have attended an EFCA church for the last two years and have had a few things that concerned me along the way, but nothing serious enough to change churches. But another one popped up today and I am concerned it is more serious.

I got the EFCA Today magazine and they are proposing 2 changes to their Statement of Faith. The first one is a move toward making the church more inclusive by removing the "pre-millenialism" statement. They now want to include ammillenialism and postmillenialsm. Coming from a Catholic background, the concept of the old covenant promises to Israel as fulfilled through the church as a significant difference. I wonder how one would preach to all three philosophies at the same time? The second change is to bring more social justice concerns to the forefront. The article I read kept quoting Rick Warren which set off red flags for me. Has anyone else read this recent issue and have concerns about these changes? I am a newer Christian so not sure I understand all the implications of these doctrinal changes, but they just seem to be sliding toward the big inclusive tent approach. I need some guidance!

[JoelH]

I have attended an EFCA church for the last two years and have had a few things that concerned me along the way, but nothing serious enough to change churches. But another one popped up today and I am concerned it is more serious.

I got the EFCA Today magazine and they are proposing 2 changes to their Statement of Faith. The first one is a move toward making the church more inclusive by removing the "pre-millenialism" statement. They now want to include ammillenialism and postmillenialsm. Coming from a Catholic background, the concept of the old covenant promises to Israel as fulfilled through the church as a significant difference. I wonder how one would preach to all three philosophies at the same time? The second change is to bring more social justice concerns to the forefront. The article I read kept quoting Rick Warren which set off red flags for me. Has anyone else read this recent issue and have concerns about these changes? I am a newer Christian so not sure I understand all the implications of these doctrinal changes, but they just seem to be sliding toward the big inclusive tent approach. I need some guidance!

This IMHO will start a slippery slope down the liberal mainline Protestant church has had. If they start quote approvingly of Jim Wallis (who Warren now runs in largely the same circle), run rather than walk away from it! (Wallis is a typical representative of the "evangelical Left", and the fact Wallis now believes in religious pluralism, and his belief in "social justice activism" stems from this apostasy is not that well known by many Christians)

YBIC,

Joel

[Pegmo]

Thank JoelH, I will go back and see if Jim Wallis is referenced.....

[milkncookiesmom]

I first attended an EV Free Church in College and then two others after college for a total of about 15 years. Met my DH at an EV Free Church and married there with a Church Basement Wedding Reception.

My understanding is that they are "Free" churches, meaning they are not governed by a denomination, but have a local government within each individual congregation. That would mean that even though there is a denomination, each individual EV Free Church would be different than the others based on their congregational leadership, but do have a denominational statement of faith. There are several EV Free chuches in my area, but most of them are very similar. There are a few that are holding the line and have not followed the PDL track.

We left the EV Free church we had been attending because the church was just growing too big, too fast for our comfort. There was also an issue that caused a church split and we were caught in the middle and did not "take sides". The problem stemmed from the fact that "Leadership" wanted to make some changes, but because it was a "congregational led" church, some members felt the congregation should have more input on those changes. The end result is that there are now two churches. The original followed the PDL path for a time, but seems to have double backed and is once again a solid Bible Teaching church. The breakaway group is also a solid Bible Teaching Church. Probably not the way to "church plant", but I know I now pay very close attention to the "health" of the Church leadership/government.

I've been in congregational led churches where even the smallest of details go to the congregation for voting and I've been in Elder led churches where the congregation has no vote as to who sits on the elder board or how money is spent. Neither faired well.

We are now in a nondenominational church with Baptist roots where the church government is Pastor/Elder led with congregational vote of affirmation of major decisions only.

[Pegmo]

Well one of the other issues I have been keeping my eye on, is the growth push at our church. They are building a big, new church....not sure we really need one, but its a done deal. My concern is that to fill the new church, there will be a big push for numbers, and perhaps some slipping in the teaching in order to accommodate a broader group of believers. Not sure if the EFCA pushes this growth thing in its churches or if it was a local decision....my impression is that some of the regular attenders are on board and some are watching it carefully like us.

[sealed]

Well, I never got around to check out the EFCA church I mentioned earlier. I spoke with a lady who is a member there and she did affirm that they based alot on the PDC. AFter reading the posts above I really do not have any interest in visiting that church anymore, anyway.

There must be some place nearby to go.....my DH said he would compromise with me and go to church with me in the summer time, however he does NOT like the independent baptist church that I had attended awhile back, so that one is out, too. Please pray for us to find the right place. Thanks.

[Pegmo]

Thanks JoelH, I will go back and see if Jim Wallis is referenced.....


I scanned the magazine and didn't see any reference to Jim, but the more I read in their magazine, the more I am concerned. We are going to try a baptist church in the area tomorrow. I really should review my concerns with the pastor. I will probably take a look and see if they have a Calvary Chapel in our area somewhere.....

[My Abba's Child]

Anyone have experience/ opinion about the Evangelical Free Church Association? I am searching for a church that is closer to my home and one I am considering visiting happens to belong to the EFCA.

Their doctrines are sound, we attended one that was in our neighborhood for awhile. However, and this is speaking SOLELY for the one in our neighborhood... VERY weak on evangelism, VERY weak on preaching that all have sinned and that's why we need Jesus to be our Savior, VERY weak on Jesus being Lord. Fellowship is THE focus, "love 'em into the kingdom". The youth group is mostly about games and going out for 'group time'. I tried to take a stand on something and use Scriptures to try to correct a mistaken notion a new visitor had been discussing and the pastor came in, told me I was not qualified to be teaching on that because I hadn't attended the seminar (or whatever) that weekend. :rolleyes That was pretty much the last straw for me. Again... this is ONLY the church I attended and not a commentary on all EFCA churches. The only thing I can say about all EFCA churches is that their statement of beliefs, or doctrines, are sound.

In His love,

[sealed]

Their doctrines are sound, we attended one that was in our neighborhood for awhile. However, and this is speaking SOLELY for the one in our neighborhood... VERY weak on evangelism, VERY weak on preaching that all have sinned and that's why we need Jesus to be our Savior, VERY weak on Jesus being Lord. Fellowship is THE focus, "love 'em into the kingdom". The youth group is mostly about games and going out for 'group time'. I tried to take a stand on something and use Scriptures to try to correct a mistaken notion a new visitor had been discussing and the pastor came in, told me I was not qualified to be teaching on that because I hadn't attended the seminar (or whatever) that weekend. :rolleyes That was pretty much the last straw for me. Again... this is ONLY the church I attended and not a commentary on all EFCA churches. The only thing I can say about all EFCA churches is that their statement of beliefs, or doctrines, are sound.

In His love,

Thank you My Abbas Child for sharing your story. That was a strange encounter with the pastor!!
I have decided to hold off on visiting the EFCA church in our area. I still haven't read the PDC or PDL books, and after speaking with a few people, I decided not to waste my time on them. There are a few other churches in my area that I will be checking out....hopefully on of them will be the right place!

[Eternally]

I personally didn't think an elder interviewing me to learn if I had a testimony to show I was saved, and then telling me that he was striving to stay saved, that he did not believe in OSAS, and the sr pastor saying eternal security was not a core or essential issue, showed sound doctrine.

That's MY thoughts and why we couldn't stay at the EFCA.

[Pegmo]

Ok. Now I am really concerned. I saw this article.....

What has happened to the EFCA?

http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=174 (http://http://christianaresearchnetwork.com/?p=174)

[sealed]

Ok. Now I am really concerned. I saw this article.....

What has happened to the EFCA?

http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=174 (http://http://christianaresearchnetwork.com/?p=174)

i could not open the link...it said http something:noidea

[Stan]

I Found the correct link.

http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=174

[sealed]

wow, that is alarming. sounds similar to the World Council of Churches (WCC) doesnt it?

[AnyDayNow]

...I got the EFCA Today magazine and they are proposing 2 changes to their Statement of Faith. The first one is a move toward making the church more inclusive by removing the "pre-millenialism" statement. They now want to include ammillenialism and postmillenialsm...

Upon this thread's rebumping and reading, I just had to comment on this. This does not surprise me in the least. I assume they will also remove the "blessed hope" part from the EFCA's model doctrines.

[JoelH]

Ok. Now I am really concerned. I saw this article.....

What has happened to the EFCA?

http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=174 (http://http://christianaresearchnetwork.com/?p=174)

I need to comment on this as well given the rebumping and sadly, my suggestions two months ago has been proven correct. Yep, this confirms my own worst fear concerning the EFCA: it is now at where the mainline Protestants such as Episcopal or Presbyterian were 45 years ago. Here is a related article from an Episcopalian/Anglican warning us evangelical Christians what to see at our own churches over the next 40 years:

(Warning: there will be some language commonly considered vulgar or as euphemisms of vulgar terms on this board, but apparently considered acceptable among the conservative/Bible-believing Episcopalians bretherns. Not too sure if it meets RR standards though)

http://faithandgender.wordpress.com/2006/12/27/an-episcopal-parable/

A worrying trend. Once a church is into PDL, it will then go down the route of EC, then CCT, and finally WCC and be like ECUSA. :mad

YBIC,

Joel

[CountryPerson]

We visited an E-free church for a few months after our move a year ago. Before visiting the church, I went online to the national EFCA website and read their doctrinal distinctives and articles of faith. What we found at the church where we visited did not "line up" with what was written on the national website, where they claim to be pre-millennial. The church we visited was so strongly REFORMED, that they did not believe in the pre-millennial return of Christ, but rather were more a-millennial in their beliefs. We were so disappointed, because there were some wonderful people there. They just couldn't seem to get off the bandwagon of REFORMED theology; it was truly the main thing there, but a visit to the national website does not say this at all. This was just our experience.

[pilgrimian]

Very good doctrine. I've attended the EV Free that Chuck Swindoll used to preach at in Fullerton, CA. My wife and I occasionally go up there on Sundays. If all EV Free congregations is like that one...I'd go in a New York minute if I was you.

:thumb :thumb :thumb

[Pegmo]

I got 2 different notes on this from 2 of our pastors. One of the pastors said that the EFCA has several safeguards in place to prevent theological liberalism drift and that the pastors/elders in the churches are given lots of oppotunity to provide feedback on the changes. Since I don't know what the safewguards are, I suggested the pastors review those with the congregation when they discuss the final Statement of Faith that is proposed. I understand there are still revisions being considered. Not sure I would believe the safeguards are very effective given what I have been reading about them lately. But don't want to judge prematurely on the Statement of Faith. So will just have to wait and see how it plays out.