Heeeelp Jewish Mindsets or Hebrew Speakers!

[G-d Seeker]

Please help me with my friend. She has made some good points I'm having trouble answering.

She said there is no way she can believe God has taken any form as in these Scriptures...

Mark 16:12 "After that he appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking along their way to the country."

Phil. 2:6-7 "...who, although he existed in the form of God did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men."

She can't believe God has taken any form because of these Scriptures...

Deut. 4

"Then the LORD spoke to you from the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of words, but you saw no form --only a voice."

"So watch yourselves carefully, since you did not see any form on the day the LORD spoke to you..."

"...so that you do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female..."

"So watch yourselves that you do not forget the covenant of the LORD your God...and make for yourselves a graven image in the form of anything against which the LORD you God has commanded you."

She asked how any Jew could believe God took the form of man when He strictly forbid us (the Jews) from thinking of Him in the form of any likeness of male.

She also asked me why our own Scriptures seem to contradict Jesus was God...

John 5:37 "And the Father who sent me, He has testified of me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form." (She asked if Jesus and the Father are one as he said, how is it the disciples did not see the "form" of God?)

And...

Romans 1:23 "Professing to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man..." (She said "See your own Scriptures say it is foolish to exchange the glory of God for an image in the form of corruptible man.")

She said either our Bible is not accurate or we don't interpret our own Bible accurately. She said she'll stick with her God.

Okay, anyone out there able to offer some insight here? Thanks!

[antsinmypants]

I'd suggest that she research the Memra, Metatron and that you research the same + Theophanies.

There is a lot there, that I cannot even fathom to take up a whole thread on.. so many books written especially from the rabbis pov prior to Y'shua and even right after him, that take verses that point 100% to him.

All I can say is pray her eyes are opened and that G-d shows you what it takes to point to her.

[Paul]

She asked how any Jew could believe God took the form of man when He strictly forbid us (the Jews) from thinking of Him in the form of any likeness of male.It’s true that no man can be God, but it isn’t true that God cannot manifest himself as a man.

Before dismissing this idea she needs to consider that, according to her own Scriptures, God manifested himself as a burning bush in Exodus 3:4-6, a pillar of cloud and fire in Exodus 13:21, in a whirlwind in Job 31:1, and a Man in Genesis 3:8, Genesis 18 and Joshua 5:15.

More in a bit...

[Paul]

She also asked me why our own Scriptures seem to contradict Jesus was God...

John 5:37 "And the Father who sent me, He has testified of me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form." (She asked if Jesus and the Father are one as he said, how is it the disciples did not see the "form" of God?)He said they hadn't seen the form of the Father. The point of that chapter is that they had seen Christ who is equal to the Father. The Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus because He made Himself equal with God. For example:

Verse 18: Almost killed for making Himself equal with God
Verse 19-20: Claims to see God and is shown all things by Him
Verse 22: Claims to be the final judge of all
Verse 23: Commands that all honor the Son just as they honor the Father
Verse 25: Claims He'll one day raise the dead
Verse 30: Claims His will is identical to the Father's

And there are other places:

Philippians 2:5-6: Christ is the form of God, equal with the Father
John 10:33: Almost stoned for claiming to be God
John 19:7: Crucified because He made Himself the Son of God.

The disciples hadn't seen the form of the Father, but they had seen the Son, who is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15). That’s why when Philip said in John 14:, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us," Jesus replied, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Also, I would encourage her to keep reading the final verses of John 5 because Jesus said something very important:

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Romans 1:23 "Professing to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man..." (She said "See your own Scriptures say it is foolish to exchange the glory of God for an image in the form of corruptible man.")Of course it’s foolish to exchange the perfection of God for the corruptible man. But Jesus wasn’t a corruptible man, He is incorruptible God. That’s why Paul would later say in 2 Corinthians 5 that “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”

[Paul]

While I'm thinking of it a wonderful site is:

www.realmessiah.com

The audio debate between Michael Brown & Rabbi Tovia Singer is fantastic.

[G-d Seeker]

Thank you for your help!

[semperfidelis]

Please help me with my friend. She has made some good points I'm having trouble answering.

She said there is no way she can believe God has taken any form as in these Scriptures...

Mark 16:12 "After that he appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking along their way to the country."

Phil. 2:6-7 "...who, although he existed in the form of God did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men."

She can't believe God has taken any form because of these Scriptures...


In Phil 2:6-7 it is saying that Christ specifically took the form of a servant and being made in the likeness of men. Christ was in fact both Man and God fulfilling the promise in the OT of the Messiah that would come in the line of David.

Romans 1:2-4 (New International Version)
2the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4and who through the Spirit[a] of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Timothy 2:8
Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel,

Revelation 5:5
Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals."

Revelation 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."


God did in fact take the form of a human as a descendant through the line of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and through the line of Judah through David and then to become the Messiah. Both God and Man.

John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.

6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

[B]14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.



Deut. 4

"Then the LORD spoke to you from the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of words, but you saw [B]no form --only a voice."


This is simply describing the fact that God could appear to people as a voice or a burning bush or whatever. In the Old Testament we also have references to Gods glory being found only in the temple. It is called his Shekanah Glory and it is found in Ezekiel and other chapters of the OT. God was also able to be in the Ark of the Covenant and move around with the Israelites and also reside in the Holy of Holies in the temple.


A picture of Gods glory from Ezekiel 1

15 As I looked at the living creatures, I saw a wheel on the ground beside each creature with its four faces. 16 This was the appearance and structure of the wheels: They sparkled like chrysolite, and all four looked alike. Each appeared to be made like a wheel intersecting a wheel. 17 As they moved, they would go in any one of the four directions the creatures faced; the wheels did not turn about [d] as the creatures went. 18 Their rims were high and awesome, and all four rims were full of eyes all around.


When Christ was crucified this changed and that is why the vail on the temple between the Holy of Holies was ripped in two as symbolism for the fact that God would no longer be just in the temple, but through the Holy Spirit he would be able to reside in every one of us.


Matthew 27
51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split.

God was no longer behind the curtain of the temple in the Holy of Holies and could come down and interact with humans through the spirit because Christ was interceding.

The idea here is that there are three parts to God. The Father who is in spiritual glory, The Son who is the word of God and was with God in the beginning and the Holy Spirit. Before Christ came to the earth God could not look upon sin so he was limited on how he could interact with us. When Christ took away the worlds sins he was raised to the right hand of the Father to intercede day and night for our sins, this allowed the Holy Spirit to come down and for us to be able to access the throne of God in prayer directly through Christs interceding for us because of his atonement for sin.


Romans 8:34
Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.


Acts 1 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

All forms of the trinity making up God. One entity in three separate parts, but all equally God.




"So watch yourselves carefully, since you did not see any form on the day the LORD spoke to you..."

"...so that you do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female..."

"So watch yourselves that you do not forget the covenant of the LORD your God...and make for yourselves a graven image in the form of anything against which the LORD you God has commanded you."

She asked how any Jew could believe God took the form of man when He strictly forbid us (the Jews) from thinking of Him in the form of any likeness of male.


I do not see how these verses stop Jews from believing in a human Messiah. In fact we know from the promises of the Davidic Covenant that they are in fact looking for the Messiah to come and rule from the Jerusalem. The entire concept of the Throne of David and that promise revolves around an earthly Messiah that comes from the lineage of David that that promise can be found in scripture.

Jews believe that the Messiah will be human they just stumbled over the idea of Christ being the Messiah because Christ did not fit their profile of what they were expecting. They were looking for the earthly ruling Messiah and he first came back as the lamb to take away the sins of the world.


2 Samuel 7
" 'The LORD declares to you that the LORD himself will establish a house for you: 12 When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men. 15 But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me ; your throne will be established forever.' "


Jesus is in fact the Promised Messiah.

Matthew 26
63But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ,[e] the Son of God."

64"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Revelation 5:5
Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals."



She also asked me why our own Scriptures seem to contradict Jesus was God...

John 5:37 "And the Father who sent me, He has testified of me. You have neither heard His voice at any time [B]nor seen His form." (She asked if Jesus and the Father are one as he said, how is it the disciples did not see the "form" of God?)

And...

Romans 1:23 "Professing to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man..." (She said "See your own Scriptures say it is foolish to exchange the glory of God for an image in the form of corruptible man.")

She said either our Bible is not accurate or we don't interpret our own Bible accurately. She said she'll stick with her God.

Okay, anyone out there able to offer some insight here? Thanks!

Your friend is taking verses out of context and misinterpreting them. Once again your friend is not understanding that this is simply talking about Men falling away and worshiping creation, not the creator.

Notice what it says in this verse.

23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

It is about worshiping creation and not the true God. It is not denying that Christ is the God or that scripture clearly says without a doubt that a human Messiah would come in the line of David and eventually rule from the throne of David. This has yet to be fulfilled because Davids throne is not Heavenly. Christ now sits at the right hand of power interceding for us until it is time for him to return and establish his earthly kingdom.

[semperfidelis]

!

Also keep in mind scriptures in Genesis 1

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [b] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

God made man in his own image and used to walk with Adam in the cool of the day before the fall.

8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"

Why would the Messiah not be Human? We are made in Gods image and in fact he used to walk with Adam in the Eden before the fall of Man.

[G-d Seeker]

Thanks everyone! Praise be to Jesus Our God! The Light and the Glory...the Word, the Way, the Truth and the Life! :clap

When all has been said, it is then up to God to soften a hard heart... The god of this world is on overtime and has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the Light.

I trust Him, He knows best, and I will forever wait for Him!
Praise His Name!! :clap

[Paul]

Thanks everyone! Praise be to Jesus Our God! The Light and the Glory...the Word, the Way, the Truth and the Life! :clap

When all has been said, it is then up to God to soften a hard heart... The god of this world is on overtime and has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the Light.

I trust Him, He knows best, and I will forever wait for Him!
Praise His Name!! :clap
What a good post.

[childlike2002]

Amen!!!! awesome post!!!!

[kidsintow123]

I suggest the books Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus
By: Michael L. Brown

Description: When it comes to Jewish Christian apologetics, the best answers are those that respond to actual objections. Incisive and direct, this book provides an honest, fair, and thorough discussion of 35 common objections on general and historical themes. Believers and seekers alike will appreciate Brown's spiritually focused answers, which are thoroughly documented and footnoted. 272 pages, softcover from Baker. (this is directly from the link below)

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?event=AFF&p=1015743&item_no=60632

I have it and it is anexcellent book that goes objection by objection and provides Scripture to back it up. Another problem you will encounter: the modern Jew does not read the Word, they are a people of the Talmud (a commentary on the OT).