My cousin the Jehova Witness...

[Love"n"Christ]

Hiya folks, hope everyone is doing well this morning. I was wondering if anyone could help me with my on going debate with my cousin and him trying to convince me that the Trinity doesn't exsist, that Jesus isn't God (but "a" God) :rolleyes ... and so many other topics.

But the one I would like info on more is the one about Jesus being God AND proving that He along with the Holy spirit are also God.

He keeps pointing out scripture that shows when Jesus talkes to God the father, or when it specifically shows that Jesus and God the father are two seperate beings. So therefore they both can't be God since there is only one God.

He also points out a passage that says that Jesus was God the father's first creation, therefore Jesus didn't ALWAYS exsist and that since he was "begotten" he can't also be God.

I need help. I know what I believe. I myself have pointed him to scripture that shows that Jesus is God, but he has that JW doctrine in him. How can I show him and make him see the truth? If possible.....


Thanks!

[mikesteffen]

If possible.....


That about sums it up. After I first got saved I worked with a JW, and we argued a lot. Then had two of them knock on my door one day and I let them in and tried to show them where they are wrong. But man it is like banging your head on the wall.

If I were to encounter another one today I wouldn't waste my time. I know that sounds mean spirited, but they really are blind. I would show them scripture that is plain as 2 plus 2 equals 4, but they would totally blow it off.

They do not seem to have any desire to understand truth.

Sometimes the best way to cause people to consider our point, is to refrain from trying to convince them of our beliefs. People who are unsure of there beliefs will rush to argue them. But a person who is confident of them has no desire to argue them.

So when one person tries to engage another but the other passes up on the offer, the one will sometimes recognize the confidence of the other and wonder if they know something that they don't. What I mean is that they will see that you are confident in your beliefs because you are unwilling to argue about them.

Proverbs 11:12
... a man of understanding holdeth his peace.

Proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when heholdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

[Love"n"Christ]

Tell me about it. It's been an ongoing argument with him for quite some time now. The thing is, they think THEY have "the truth". That's something they say a lot, that they have "the truth". So he thinks I'M wrong. You're right, maybe I am wasting my time. I've showed him scripture that shows that Jesus is God and he still does not believe. I don't know what else to say to him!

I sent him some information via snail mail yesterday. He should get it some time next week. I think that's it for me. If he wants, it's there for him to read. At this point I think only the Lord can change his heart and direct him to the real truth, so I'll just pray for him. It's very frustrating. I find myself getting angry and I loose my patients. I know I need to work on that.

I also had a couple of JW come to my house one time. It's weird because I had recently told someone that I never had JW come to my door, and low and behold a couple of weeks later, there they were!

I didn't invite them in. I simply told them I was an Evangelical Christian and I was strong in my beliefs and was not interested.

[blitzkreig]

Having a one-on-one with a JW might seem like an exercise in futility ... yes.

Here is a good apologetics site which might help ...

http://www.carm.org/witnesses.htm

Prayer is about the only thing which might break through that thick defencive ideology of theirs ...

[paul&katie]

I recommend this sight:

http://www.contenderministries.org/jehovahswitnesses.php

Paul

[Love"n"Christ]

I just talked to my cousin during lunch. He called to ask me when my bibles was published. He said that if it was published after the 1400 or 1600 it was MADE to teach about the trinity. My goodness.....

[jds22]

Yes they only use their bible, all others are full of errors.

Ask him about the 144,000 that are going to heaven and if he thinks he has a chance. Then you can show him that according to his bible, the 144,000 are Jewish virgins. Ask him to explain that.

[Cash]

JWs really are tough nuts. Just leave them be. They have their own twisted version of the Bible, which they change once Christians develop strategies using their own verses against their theology.

Years ago, early in our marriage, my wife answered the door to a couple of them. She was chatting away, I was reclined on a couch watching TV. I caught a suspicious phrase, don't remember what it was...

"Are you guys Jehovah Witnesses?"

"Yes"

"We're not interested."

Wife was kinda embarassed by my abrupt answer. She explained we were Baptists and had a church we belonged to. They quickly left. She got onto me a little bit until I explained what I understood to be the futility of their beliefs and to not waste their time or ours.

I will say most of the JW kids I've had in class are model students. I have a co-worker that is one. They are sadly and completely deceived.

Edited to add:

My great-grandpa passed away before I was born. But I am told he always looked fwd to the occasional visits. He was a licensed Freewill baptist preacher, you see. In his older days he really enjoyed destroying their sell-job, he considered himself really equipped. Looking fwd to meeting the old fellow some day soon...:):

[retire2006]

I don't quite understand threads like these. What I am trying to say is that, I don't understand why we as christians would tell anyone who wanted to come to our door and read scriptures with us, would be a threat. I myself invite them in. I find that they are extremly polite, honest, compassionate, well read in the Bible (not only in their Bible but in all Bibles). All relilgions claim that they know the truth so I don't hold that against them. I always use my KJV when they come to the door and they have no problem with that. I also agree with their method of going door to door to reach the population. If there is one thing I think we have failed in in the evangelistic church is the witnessing to the population. So in conclusion I don't argue with them or get nasty with them I just read the Bible scriptures with them. I do the same thing with mormons ect. I do not fear these people or hate them but enjoy the chance to open my Bible and discuss intelligently the Word of God. Matt. 22:39 And the second is like it: love your neighbor as yourself. 40 All the Law and prophets hang on these two commandents.

[blitzkreig]

I don't quite understand threads like these. What I am trying to say is that, I don't understand why we as christians would tell anyone who wanted to come to our door and read scriptures with us, would be a threat. Would you say the same if it were the Moonies? The Harri Krishna? Buddhists?

Could folks reaction to it be distain because JWs are practised at luring otherwise unsuspecting naive folks off into a cult which draws them away from salvation and into eternal punishment?

Allow me to use a parallel of "regular death" instead of "eternal death".

Suppose a group of murderers practised a similar way an went door to door. No they haven't killed you yet. Probably won't. And you can sit there and read scripture to them. They are polite and well dressed. Why would you be disturbed?

JWs are successful at times and draw people ... sometimes our neighbours ... into a slavish dark existence where few ever return into truth.

I for one do not believe that the Jehovah Witness religion will gain a person entry into glory ... but into eternal regret.

So I don't blame some folks from "recoiling" from the enemy if they feel uncomfortable ... :noidea

[Rebecki]

A co-worker is a Jehovah's Witness, so I did some investigating on how to handle this from a believer's standpoint. The best thing you can do is be willing to agree with them on things we agree with in scripture and pray for them.

They are truly a brainwashed group of people. They are only allowed to read things from the Watch-Tower. Seriously! No magazines, books, etc. Only things published by the Watch-Tower. It is pointless to argue with them also. They have studies practically every night of the week, and some of them are specifically geared towards how to counteract evangelical faith/doctrine/theology.

What I've chosen to do with my co-worker is accept where she is at, not argue or try to win her over, and just let my life be an example to her, and leave the rest in God's hands. I tell her things as if I were talking to another believer. In fact, this week was a rough one and I told her that I was praying about some things and God gave me strength to get through it. She just kind of stares at me when I mention prayer, but I don't care. She "claims" that she's a Christian also, and we Christians pray.

I would stop the debates and the arguing and let your life be an example. You can't get through the brainwashing that they've undergone.

Here's some threads on RR that discuss Jehovah Witnesses...

This first link has posts in it from Trac, a member here on RR who used to be a Jehovah's Witness. Perhaps you can PM them for help?

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=231535&page=3&highlight=Jehovah%27s+Witness

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=216102&highlight=Jehovah%27s+Witness

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=193084&highlight=Jehovah%27s+Witness

[Love"n"Christ]

Well thanks to all for your opinions, and help. I didn't speak to my cousin this weekend. And I'm kind glad in a way, because I really didn't feel like going back and forth with him for two hours debating the trinity, or Jesus being God.

I FedEx'd him some stuff I printed out of the web sites you guys provided (thanks again) and I sent it to him so he could read for himself, for what it's worth. I'm done arguing though, it's frustrating. I don't think he's any closer to seeing the REAL truth than when this whole thing started.

[toddlemom]

One of those apologetics sites probably talks about where the verse "In the begining was the Word, and the Word was God ..." (in accurate translations) has been clumsily mistranslated if you read to the Greek.

To the point that the non-Christian writer of a Greek dictionary cited by teh JWs has asked them to stop referencing his work :frusty because it's not accurate.

To hang your eternal fate on a typo is pretty scary.

One of DD's good school friends comes from a JW family. We are praying for them. DD feels very sorry for this girl because she has to sit out so many class activities and was yanked off the bus for a field trip because the class was going to see a Christmas play. (About a singing mouse ... deep spiritual content ... :rolleyes) Dad, non-JW, said yes, the girl could go see the play ... Mom came flying into the school as buses were about to leave and got their daughter, crying, off the bus. Quite a scene.

HOpe you are able to reach your cousin. Remember, Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against the church.

ysic
ann

[Richard G]

This made my local JWs angry.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

[OwnedByJesus]

I witnessed to a JW while she worked here. She abruptly left...I think she was asking questions to the JWs and they sent her on 'missions'.

Anyway, here is some of what I worked on... Sorry if it seems long, but many good points. Also, these were ment to be my notes and when my JW friend said she was leaving I gave her the list and told her to read it. I hope she did.
Just stay focused on Who Jesus is. That is the stumbling block for many:nod


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Jesus is God in the flesh
1 Tim 3:16
1 Cor 8:6
Colossians 1:19-20

God said in Isaiah 43:11 that there is no other savior than He.
How is it then that Jesus is our savior? Jesus is God.

God says in Malachi 3:6 that He does not change.
How it is then that Hebrews 13:8 says Jesus does not change? Jesus is God. See also: Psalm 102:27

God says in Isaiah 48:12, 41:4 and 44:6 that He is the first and the last.
Jesus says it in Revelation 1:17 and 22:13. Jesus is God.

God made the heavens and earth alone. Gen 1:1, Isaiah 44:24
Jesus is also accounted to making all things in John 1:3, Col 1:16, Heb 1:10 Jesus is God.

God forgives sin. Sin is transgressions against God, who other than God can forgive them?
Psalm 103:2-3(LORD forgives all iniquities (wickedness & sin)), Isaiah 43:25(the LORD ‘…blotteth out thy transgressions...and will not remember they sins.’)
Jesus forgives sin. Matthew 9:2-6(Jesus forgives sin and heals), Mark 2:6-7(same), Luke 5:20(same), Luke 7:48(Jesus forgave a woman’s sins)

God is our redeemer and savior. Isaiah 63:16(our redeemer), 43:11(no other savior), 44:24(redeemer, also created all things by Himself), 49:26(redeemer & savior), Hosea 13:4(no savior beside me, says the Lord), Job 19:25(my redeemer lives and will shall stand upon the earth on the latter day)
Jesus (Greek form of the Hebrew Joshua, which means Savior) is our redeemer and savior. Acts 13:23, 1 John 4:14, John 4:42, Titus 2:13-15(appearing of God AND Jesus, who gave himself for us), Luke 1:47,68(God had visited and redeemed), (Micah 5:2), Matthew 1:23(Emmanuel, God with us), Luke 2:11(Savior which is Christ),1 Tim 3:16(God was manifest in the flesh), Philippians 3:20(savior in heaven which is Jesus), (1 Tim 2:3), 2 Tim 1:10(savior Jesus Christ), 2 Peter 1:11(Lord and Savior Jesus Christ), 2:20(Lord and Savior Jesus Christ), 3:2/18(Lord and Savoir that be all the glory), Jude 1:25(God AND Savor be glory and majesty…).

There is one God. Deuteronomy 6:4(‘…LORD our God...’God is ‘elhiym’(used 2346 times) which is the plural form of ‘elowahh’(used 52 times) which is God singular), 1 John 5:7(…and these three are one), John 10:30(I and my Father are one), John 14:9(…he that hath seen me hath seen the Father…), Philippians 2:5-11(always God and took the form of a servant in the likeness of men. ‘…at the name of Jesus every knee should bow…’), 2 Tim1:14(Holy Ghost in us),1 Cor 8:6

God is ‘I Am’(self-existing) Exodus 3:14
Jesus is ‘I Am’ John 8:24 “…For if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.”, John 8:58 “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.” (the Jews knew what Jesus was saying and were going to stone him because of blasphemy, claiming to be God)

God is to be worshipped. Isaiah 42:8(will not give glory His glory or praise to another), Gen 24:26(…worshipped the LORD), Exodus 20:3-5(do not bow down or serve another god), 34:14(…worship no other god…), Deut 11:16(do not be deceived and to serve and worship other gods).
Jesus is to be worshipped. Matthew 8:2(leper worshipped Jesus), 9:18(a ruler worshipped Jesus), 15:25(woman of Canaan worshipped Jesus), 20:20(a mother worshipped Jesus), Mark 5:6(man with unclean spirit worshipped Jesus), (Luke 4:7 Matt 4:9-10 Satan tries to get Jesus to worship him, Jesus says ‘…worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.’), John 9:38(Jesus worshipped), Rev 22:8-9(angle said not to worship him but to worship God). Jesus, if just a rabbi would have rebuked others worshipping Him, Jesus if just an angle would have rebuked it as well, but Jesus is the Mighty God (is one with his father) and accepted it. John 20:28-29 (Tomas says to Jesus ‘My Lord and my God.’ This was not rebuked by Jesus. (Titus 2:13; Hebrews 1:8) )

King of Israel
Isaiah 44:6
John 1:49-50

Prayer
Acts 7:59 (Stephen prayed to Jesus to receive his spirit) (addition Jesus says 'Come unto me' not 'Go to God')

Risen
John 2:19-22 (Jesus, speaking of his body, said ‘Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.’) Our bodies also are described as temples in: 1 Cor 3:16-19
Deut 32:36-39 (the LORD shall judge his people and makes life and takes it away alone with no other god)
John 6:29 (the work of God is that you believe in Jesus)
John 6:44 (Jesus speaking ‘…I will raise him up at the last day.’)
John 10:28 (Jesus gives eternal life and those that have it shall not perish or be plucked form his hand.)
Matt 25:31-45 (Jesus will judge all the nations) Daniel 7:9/13-14/22/27 (Ancient of Days takes His seat / one like a son of man given authority, glory, and sovereign power and an everlasting kingdom / Ancient of Days will pronounce judgment / kingdom of Most High will be everlasting and all will worship and obey him – Shows that Jesus (one like the son of man) is given all things and that He is the Ancient of Days and the Most High)
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 5:39-40 (search the scriptures for eternal life, which testifies of Jesus. If you do not go to Jesus, you will not have eternal life.)
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Additons welcome!:thumb

[sracer]

I don't quite understand threads like these. What I am trying to say is that, I don't understand why we as christians would tell anyone who wanted to come to our door and read scriptures with us, would be a threat. I myself invite them in. I find that they are extremly polite, honest, compassionate, well read in the Bible (not only in their Bible but in all Bibles). All relilgions claim that they know the truth so I don't hold that against them. I always use my KJV when they come to the door and they have no problem with that. I also agree with their method of going door to door to reach the population. If there is one thing I think we have failed in in the evangelistic church is the witnessing to the population. So in conclusion I don't argue with them or get nasty with them I just read the Bible scriptures with them. I do the same thing with mormons ect. I do not fear these people or hate them but enjoy the chance to open my Bible and discuss intelligently the Word of God. Matt. 22:39 And the second is like it: love your neighbor as yourself. 40 All the Law and prophets hang on these two commandents.
You mention Matt 22:39. Do you invite these JWs over to lunch? Do you give them your phone number and tell them that if they ever need someone to talk to or need help with something to give you a call? Inviting them in to "intelligently discuss the Word of God" is nice, but not the quite what was meant by "love your neighbor".

Do you pray with them? Do you allow them to pray during these discussions?

----------------
Witnessing and evangelism come to an end when they have been given the truth and questions have been answered. Then they are responsible for what they do with the truth. We're not called to press on non-believers and wear them down to a point where they accept Jesus.

[OwnedByJesus]

Don't want to kick a dead horse here but I have added to my above paper:

"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.” Says the LORD Zechariah 12:10

This verse may be encouraging to you and a good witnessing verse to use with a JW.

:deadhorse :lol

[sawdust]

Walter Martin has an audio series you can listen to about JW. I had 2 JW's coming to my house prior to my heart attack, so I was listening to these tapes. Bottom line is that you won't convince them they are wrong just going toe-to-toe using scripture. You have to plant seeds of doubt about their beliefs.

Walter Martins site is here:
http://www.waltermartin.org/realaudio.html
the links to the JW audio are about halfway down the page.

I am also going over this site with interest. It looks promising. Lots of audio to listen to by former JW's.
http://www.towerwatch.com/


peace.

[deafchristian]

maybe he will understand this, we have a body, mind and emotions. they all have three functions but is in one. Sometime when I cry, I don't want to cry, but I cry because I am hurt. crying is my body function, wanting not to cry is my mind function, and crying because I am hurt is my emotional function.

Jesus is fully man and fully God, or better way to say it is that Jesus is god's word in flesh or/and God's grace. The holy spirit is God's guidence. And God the father is God's law and wrath. Sometime like that. I have to be careful because there is no easy way to explain it. Just stick to the bible verses.

[DestryRideAgain]

Hi,

I wondered what the JW's say about the verses in Revelation that the 144,000 are Jews (Rev 7:4-8), male virgins and likely firstborns (Rev 14:4). Or did they change them verses too?:confused

Love"n"Christ, unless your cousin is a Jewish firstborn male virgin, it's not likely he'll EVER be one of the 144,000. What chance does he then have of being one of those godly men and what would be the point in remaining in JW? Point that out to him and have him think about that. God has already chosen who will be the best evangelists of this age, but they aren't the only ones going to Heaven. :nod

YBIC,
Destry

[carriesch]

I agree with retire 2006. I have also invited jw's in.I had heard what other people say about jw's beliefs but I also know alot of people judge different people without understanding what someones beliefs really are.Its up to God to judge these people,not us.

[RhondaH]

I was once VERY close to being sucked into the JW's. I was not in a very good state of mind at the time, and what they offered seemed so appealling. I studied with them for over a year, went to a couple of meetings at the Kingdom Hall, and was really starting to buy into it all. Thank God, I spoke to my uncle, who is a minister.

The WTS teaches that you cannot understand scripture without the aid of their materials. They also teach that if you have their materials, but no bible, you will still come to a complete understanding of scripture. Since I was pretty much a shoe-in, they allowed me to have books and things that they don't normally give to people outside of the organization. I've since trashed them all, but I'm telling you that it's SCARY what they teach their people to say and do.

The woman that I studied with was one of the nicest people I've ever met. She was truly a wonderful person. Many of them are, but being a nice person isn't what gets you to heaven. Arguing with them about their beliefs is like arguing with a light pole, but we don't have to argue with them. I've had a few come calling since I moved here. If they come to my door, I usually do invite them in. I tell them that I'm a born again believer, and that I'm not interested in "converting," but that I'd be more than happy to discuss scripture with them. They try to change my mind, but most of the time, the same ones never come back. They've even sent their elders to my door to try to persuade me.:heh

It's an individual choice as to whether or not you engage them. Just don't treat them harshly because that sort of solidifies their view of things. Remember to walk in the spirit and be humble but bold.

[carriesch]

I found the best way to get jw's from coming to the door.First, I did talk to them whenever they came to the door, its not easy for them to go door to door and get doors slammed in their faces.They are going door to door to serve God even if their beliefs are wrong.
Anyway,this was the last time they came to my door a couple years ago. They were talking about some of their beliefs,I cant remember what they were saying now. I knew the beliefs were wrong.Everytime they would say something i knew went against the Bible I would say," In the bible it says........." After saying that a few times they had this look on their faces, they walked away really fast and never came back.:cheer

[livingingrace]

My best friend was a JW for 26 years and thanks God every day that she now knows the truth. She is a wonderful and Godly woman.