About the nature of hell thread in the polls forum

[TonyLee]

Warrior did not want a debate in the polls forum where this came from, so I'll ask here.

Here is the link of the thread I'm referencing:
http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=122617


The Bible says only believers have eternal life.


Well for this group of people, why does the smoke of their torment ascend up forever if they are burned up? If they are wiped out, what is left to be tormented and burned?

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Thanks

[4fish]

Quote:Originally Posted by Lil' King
The Bible says only believers have eternal life.

Well for this group of people, why does the smoke of their torment ascend up forever if they are burned up? If they are wiped out, what is left to be tormented and burned?

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Thanks

I believe Lil King was trying to say that we all (both the saved and unsaved) will go into eternity. The saved will have eternal "life" and the unsaved will have eternal "death".

Rev 10-11 does not say that they are "burned up". It says they "shall be tormented .. and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever ... and they have no rest day nor night ..."

Meaning they will be tormented for eternity ... their torment "with fire and brimstone" giving off "smoke" for all eternity.

[Lil' King]

I believe Lil King was trying to say that we all (both the saved and unsaved) will go into eternity. The saved will have eternal "life" and the unsaved will have eternal "death".

Rev 10-11 does not say that they are "burned up". It says they "shall be tormented .. and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever ... and they have no rest day nor night ..."

Meaning they will be tormented for eternity ... their torment "with fire and brimstone" giving off "smoke" for all eternity.
When the Bible says "Second Death" I think that is exactly what it means.

[faline]

I wish you were right, but a worm that never dies and smoke that ascends forever doesn't suggest that the person in hell simply stops existing. Doesn't happen that way, unfortunately. Hell wasn't prepared for humans, but for fallen angels. Difference is, people who go to hell do so of their own volition and free will. Demons have no choice in the matter.

It's eternal.

[tsuzukab]

I wish you were right, but a worm that never dies and smoke that ascends forever doesn't suggest that the person in hell simply stops existing. Doesn't happen that way, unfortunately. Hell wasn't prepared for humans, but for fallen angels. Difference is, people who go to hell do so of their own volition and free will. Demons have no choice in the matter.

It's eternal.

How did demons have no choice in the matter???? They CHOSE to rebel against God and that is why they are now demons instead of the angels they once were.

Also, demons were created as "immortal angels"........humans were created as "mortal beings". If God cannot totally destroy a humans soul in hell.....they why did Jesus Himself state:

"Fear not man who can destroy your body, but fear God who can destroy BOTH body and soul in hell."

Also, God who is all powerful, can probably destroy His immortal angels if He chooses to........in talking about satan in the Old Testament God states that He will turn him to ash to be trampled under foot and never to be remembered again.

[carmen]

Just finished a good book on this topic, "The Other Side of the Good News."

I personally find the issue of eternal torment for some humans troubling (for some I don't find it troubling at all--Hitler, serial murderers, those that hurt children, etc). I believe that my perspective is heavily influenced by my inability to understand sin and it's consequences, and also by my inability to truly understand God's holiness. However, the bible seems to me to be pretty clear that at least some, if not all, in the lake of fire will be in torment and in torment forever..

What I have decided is that it comes down to my faith in God. I believe and trust that He is perfectly just and holy and can do no evil or wrong. Therefore, whatever punishment is meted out in hell must also be perfectly just and not evil or wrong. I have decided to leave it at that, and wait and see. If I can trust God for my salvation and eternal fate, I know that I can also trust Him with the fate of others.

[jel717]

Just curious...does the Bible say anything about different levels of Hell??? I mean I know that God is just, and maybe its beyond my understanding, but how can a normal person who was a non-believer suffer the same punishment as someone like Hitler?

[TonyLee]

There are some passages that show differences among those for that great judgment.

Mat 11:20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:

Mat 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Mat 11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Mat 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

[Lil' King]

There are some passages that show differences among those for that great judgment.

Mat 11:20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:

Mat 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Mat 11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Mat 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
The punishment fits the crime.

[tsuzukab]

There are some passages that show differences among those for that great judgment.

Mat 11:20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:

Mat 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Mat 11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Mat 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

One thing that catches my eye there is that it says "it shall be more toleradle for them on the DAY of Judgement" ................. it specifically says it will be more tolerable for them on that DAY......not for eternity. Could that be a clue that the punishment will be on that DAY and then they will be gone forever?

[TonyLee]

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

It would seem the fire would not be eternal if the occupants would be burned up almost immediately.

Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

For these people, it would seem when they get burned out of existence then, that the smoke would cease.

[Hootmon]

Certain beings in the Lake of Fire are described as being tormented forever, but not all are described in that fashion.

[B A N E]

:ranger

[tsuzukab]

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

It would seem the fire would not be eternal if the occupants would be burned up almost immediately.

Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

For these people, it would seem when they get burned out of existence then, that the smoke would cease.

Also, I don't remember exactly which one it was but there was a city desrtoyed by God in the Old Testament where it was stated that the smoke of it's destruction would go up forever......but it's not burning now...... perhaps the "smoke going up forever" means it will be remembered forever.

[BloodoftheLamb]

Certain beings in the Lake of Fire are described as being tormented forever, but not all are described in that fashion.


Yet death and hell are tossed in, so anyone under those categories would be in the eternal Lake of Fire also eventually.

I might not have a death sentence but if the Ship I am on does, effectively so do I when it sinks.