Why do people support Word of Faith?

[Becky]

:sigh It is amazing that people, especially on our board, support Word of Faith.

What is Word of Faith?

"Word of Faith," "Name-it, Claim-it," "Health and Wealth," "Positive Confession," etc.

The Word Faith basically teaches the following, although not all Word Faith teachers are unified in all that they believe: Christians are little gods (Are Christians little gods? (http://www.myfortress.org/AreChristiansLittleGods.html)) Jesus did not pay for our sins on the cross but he had to finish the job of atonement in hell (Did Jesus pay for our sins in hell? (http://www.myfortress.org/DidJesusPayForOurSinsInHell.html)). We can command God by our words and God wants us healthy and wealthy (Danger of Blessings (http://www.myfortress.org/DangerofBlessings.html)). If Christians are not healthy and wealthy it is because of our lack of faith and/or knowledge (Christians and Sickness (http://www.myfortress.org/Sickness.html)). Christians have total control over their environment by the words that we speak, if we speak sickness and poverty we will be sick and broke. Conversely, if Christians speak blessings and healing we will be healthy and wealthy.

The Bible (http://www.myfortress.org/BibleDefined.html) makes it very clear, God even simplified the matter by placing it all into one easy to understand chapter. God teaches us the following: that we should be content, we should not desire to be rich, the love of money is the root of all evil, that many people have erred from the faith due to a love of money, then it commands us to flee these things, (1 Timothy 6 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=1TIM+6&language=english&version=KJV)).

Some of the most Godly people in the Bible were poor, Paul (Philipians 4:11-12 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=PHIL+4&language=english&version=KJV)), Paul's companions (1 Corinthians 4:9-13 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=1COR+4&language=english&version=KJV)), Old Testament faithful (Hebrews 11:37 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=HEB+11&language=english&version=KJV)) and Jesus (Matthew 8:20 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=MATT+8&language=english&version=KJV), 2 Corinthians 8:9 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=2COR+8&language=english&version=KJV)).

"Supposing that gain is godliness; from such withdraw thyself...But godliness with contentment is great gain...And having food and clothes let us be content...But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts...For the love of money is the root of all evil, which, while some have coveted after, they have erred from the faith...But thou, O man of God, flee these things, and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness," 1 Timothy 6:6-11.

The Christian Research Institute has this to say:
"An aberrational theology affirms essential orthodox Christianity, but it adds teachings that undermine the profession of true orthodoxy. A heretical theology, on the other hand, outright denies essential doctrines of Christianity, and groups that adhere to a heretical teaching are considered to be cults. Some of the best-known American television evangelists subscribe either in whole or in part to the unbiblical teaching known as “positive confession,” the “faith” teaching, or the “prosperity” message. Its chief representatives include Kenneth Copeland (http://www.myfortress.org/KennethCopeland.html), Kenneth Hagin (http://www.myfortress.org/KenHagin.html), Fred Price (http://www.myfortress.org/FredPrice.html), Paul and Jan Crouch, John Avanzini (http://www.myfortress.org/JohnAvanzini.html), Benny Hinn (http://www.myfortress.org/BennyHinn.html), and Marilyn Hickey (http://www.myfortress.org/MarilynHickey.html). In the past, CRI has attempted to meet with some of the people listed above to dialogue with them concerning their false teachings; however, most of them have refused.

The major tenets of the Word of Faith movement betray the fact that it is in opposition to mainstream, evangelical Christianity. It asserts that God created human beings in “God’s class” as “little gods.” Before the fall, humans had the potential to exercise a “God kind of faith” and could call things into existence. Humans took on Satan’s nature by rebelling against God in the Garden of Eden, thus losing the ability to call things into existence.

In order to correct this situation, Jesus Christ became a man, died spiritually (taking Satan’s nature upon Himself), went to hell, was “born again,” and rose from the dead with God's nature. After this, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to duplicate the Incarnation in believers so they might fulfill their calling to be little gods. It follows, then, that those who have had the Incarnation duplicated in them by the Holy Spirit (thus giving them the ability to exercise the “God kind of faith”) should be successful in every area of their lives.

Furthermore, hardships like indebtedness, illness, and even being left by one’s spouse show lack of faith because these problems should be eliminated by “claiming” God’s promises. While certain details of the above outlined doctrine vary from teacher to teacher, the general outline remains the same. CRI considers this teaching in its complete form to be at best aberrational and at worst heretical."

This is amazing stuff people. And those of you who back this teaching cannot support this junk biblically as we have shown you over and over with scripture that it is a lie.

And yet people use excuse after excuse to support this junk. :sigh


But Becky, you say, what about judge not lest ye be judged?

Before anyone who supports the WoF movement replies, I challenge you to read the scriptures quoted above, read the quotes from these people and do some research. We are to be Bereans in the Word. We are to challenge teachers just as the Bereans did in Acts 17.

Acts 17:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=17&verse=11&version=31&context=verse)
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

So do some research! We are not suppose to fall for whatever any teacher claims. Get out your bible and look at these links:

http://www.bereanfaith.com (http://www.bereanfaith.com/)
http://home.computer.net/~cya/cy00052.html (http://home.computer.net/~cya/cy00052.html)
http://www.discernment.org/articles/modern.htm (http://www.discernment.org/articles/modern.htm)
http://www.biblebb.com/files/WRDFAITH.HTM (http://www.biblebb.com/files/WRDFAITH.HTM)

These are but a few sites. There are books available as well.
Now back to the argument of Matt. 7:1

Matt. 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged."

Now look at these verses:
1Cor. 6:2-3 Do you not know that the saints [the saved; Christians] will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
Prov. 3:21 My son, preserve sound judgment and discernment, do not let them out of your sight;
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
Jer. 22:3 Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness...
Phil. 1:10 so that you may be able to discern [judge] what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ...
Phil. 1:7 It is right for me to feel this way about all of you [judge you]...

Matt 7:1 seems to support the allusion that we are not to judge at all IF we use small-vision tactics by narrow-mindedly selecting only that SMALL piece of the total of what Jesus was saying. Matt 7:1 DOES NOT tell us not to judge at all -- it tells us to not judge with unfairness or superficiality: to not use our own understanding to judge. Look at John 7:24. There, Jesus TELLS us to judge, but to do so righteously. Righteously means to use the Truth of the Word to reveal sins and NOT by appearances only. Judge we must else we could not tell good from bad, proper from improper, righteousness from evil.

And to continue, Matt 7:6 says. "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces." How are we going to know who are the "dogs" and the "pigs" if we do not judge?

Yes, we do have the right and the authority to judge the behavior of others as long as we honor and obey His Word doing it. That Jesus is the only one who can judge is speaking to judging whether someone is or is not saved. Neither you or I nor anyone else who has ever drawn a breath (except Jesus) or ever will draw a breath has the authority to say whether another has or has not been saved. Only Jesus can make that judgment since only He can give Salvation.

[BloodoftheLamb]

I am no Bible Scholar, but I get the idea being a Christian would most likely be a hardship and put you at odds with the world, making it more likely you would be NOT a rich person.

WOF does not compute~!

[twelvesmaster]

one excuse I've seen used -- "but God wants nothing but the best for His children."

my answer -- go back and re-read John 3:16.
The "best" for the world in general, and for me personally, was the sacrifice of His son, Jesus Christ, on the cross so that I would never have to pay for my sins. I can't think of anything better I want. Whatever my financial state, I feel rich indeed when I seek after and cling to the greatest treasure of all.

[abkn]

Thank you Becky. You Rock!

Now what to do when you are rich, and are still content, happy and blessed.

I do not believe in WOF. No man moves God. God makes the rich and the poor. If you are rich, or well off, or comfortable, whatever term you wish to use, just remember that this is NOT a sin. But also remember that God expects much more from you. Give with gladness. Do not judge those who are less "well-off" than yo are. Be generous with your time, and your goods. Preach the good news (gospel) while you perform your alms. Do not publish your good deeds, in articles, or in verbal words. You are your brother's keeper!

And remember,

Matthew
7:1
Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Is not the end of the lesson, but you must also remember the next verse:

7:2
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

So if you judge another, make sure it is in truth, mercy, and understanding.

[frisian1970]

I believe many theologies begin with taking a minute portion of scripture and acting as it is the whole. I am sure I have been guilty of such. Also, the difficulty in understanding and accepting grace for what it is.

[Caretaker]

God bless you all and thank you for posting this.

The lure of wealth and perfect health, of God as a giant vending machine for the desires of the flesh is a huge temptation.

I began my walk with Christ in the WOF arena and it was not for several years that I finally studied the Word as a Berean and found their theology corrupt and their proof scriptures wrested from context.
I am reminded of the old song which tells of a walk with Jesus in a garden which contains many roses, but praise God for the thorns which temper our faith and make us steadfast.

Romans 8:
35: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36: As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37: Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38: For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


I come to the garden alone
While the dew is still on the roses
And the voice I hear falling on my ear
The Son of God discloses.

Refrain

And He walks with me, and He talks with me,
And He tells me I am His own;
And the joy we share as we tarry there,
None other has ever known.

He speaks, and the sound of His voice,
Is so sweet the birds hush their singing,
And the melody that He gave to me
Within my heart is ringing.

Refrain

I’d stay in the garden with Him
Though the night around me be falling,
But He bids me go; through the voice of woe
His voice to me is calling.

Refrain

[carmen]

Why do people support Word of Faith? IMHO, they haven't taken the time to learn what the Word actually teaches, as opposed to taking verses out of context, and they fit right in with 2 Timothy 4:3-4:

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.


The sad thing is, all that must be done to disprove WOF is to review the life of Christ, who is our model in all things. Christ was born in poverty (Luke 2); lived with little to no possessions (Matthew 8:20); and died a terrible, painful, ugly death alone, not according to His OWN will, but the will of God (Mathew 26:39-40).

Further, the life of Paul was no picnic in health, wealth or prosperity. Yet he is an incredible example of what a Christian can be when submitted not to his OWN will, but GOD'S.

In fact, name one apostle that lived a life that we might term a bed of roses, full of wealth and health and love from all around them? That isn't the picture Scripture paints for us.

WOF is takes Scripture and twists it, and takes it out of context, in a way that is both dangerous to true Christian faith and disgusting. It dishonors the very Word God gave us to use it in such a way. For profit, money, of all things! :puke

People that don't see it that way, haven't taken the time to learn what the Word actually teaches. Instead, they are taking the message of those that teach WOF, and assuming it to be true. It is easier to follow than to discover the truth for ourselves. I am sure Christ weeps over how easily, like sheep, we are led astray :cry.

[Becky]

I believe many theologies begin with taking a minute portion of scripture and acting as it is the whole. I am sure I have been guilty of such. Also, the difficulty in understanding and accepting grace for what it is.What does this have to do with Word of Faith, Fris? We are talking Christianity vs Word of Faith.

[Becky]

Good points, everyone. :thumb

I would like to hear the defense of a Word of Faith supporter.

[70thWeek]

I have studied WOF some. I did my senior paper on it and a major research paper in seminary on it. In these papers I studied the beliefs in detail, but not the psychology of why people believe it. I know many people who adhere to WOF and from what I observed, it seems that some of these people really desire the things that WOF promises. Many (but by no means all) are disenfranchised, poor, etc. and WOF promises them a standing and wealth. Another dynamic is that people align themselves with their teacher. I was debating the redemption in hell idea with someone recently and his support was "Kenneth Copeland believes it, and so do I." To a certain extent, maybe we all do this. I have seen people on this board do similar things with their favorite prophecy teacher. I admit my bias in that I am a Wesleyan, but I try not to base my belief on something just because Wesley believed it, but because I find it to be a valid interpretation of Scripture. I want to emphasize that I am sure that most people do this as well. I guess what I was getting at is that people too closely identify themselves as a follower of so and so.This involves a unique power relationship, where often in WOF churches, the pastor has a dictatorial style of government, with the only input able to be given by the congregation is to leave.

I hope that made sense. Again, not everyone fits into these observations.

[70thWeek]

What does this have to do with Word of Faith, Fris? We are talking Christianity vs Word of Faith.

I think that Fris is right on. You take a part and make it the whole. In WOF, people make take one truth and develop a whole theology from there. Or, they might take a verse out of context and go from there. They make a mountain of a molehill. But, let's remember that this sort of thing is not just limited to WOF. Other groups do it as well.

[70thWeek]

What does this have to do with Word of Faith, Fris? We are talking Christianity vs Word of Faith.

Also, I would like to caution people not to automatically assume that WOF does not equal Christianity. It can mean that, but not in every instance. As you mentioned, the beliefs are varied. One can be WOF and still be a Christian.

[Becky]

Thanks, 70th. I appreciate you explaining that.

[twelvesmaster]

I found these statistics on hunger here: (http://www.wfp.org/aboutwfp/introduction/hunger_who.asp?section=1&sub_section=1)

According to Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) statistics, more than 30 percent of the population is hungry in more than 70 developing countries. Of the total number of undernourished:

221.1 million live in India
203.5 million live in Sub-Saharan Africa
142.1 million live in China
519 million live in Asia and the Pacific
52.9 million live in Latin America and the Caribbean
33.1 million live in the Near East

I know that WOF preachers such as Hinn, Copeland, Winston, etc. probably are big contributors to relief efforts for the hungry and poor -- or even create and administer their own agencies to address these problems. My question to them, however, is "What is the message?" Do the "name it and claim it" sermons get put on hold when they speak to victims of poverty?

[barb43]

IMO (and it's only my opinion): people support WOF because it sounds soooo good! Oh, if only we could be rich and healthy -- why, we'd be happy! :thumb Only life doesn't work out that way, whether you're a Christian or not. WOF makes me feel like i'm in the Land of Oz, it's a fairytale. I'm so glad you posted all of that, Becky!!

I have a very dear friend, a strong Christian woman (? - and i do believe she's a Christian, she's just so misled), who is ate up with believing in WOF preachers. She's way over her head in debt. She has hung red ribbons in the windows of her apt because she believes the Holy Spirit told her to - as a means of attracting wealth (i tried to tell her that it looks like a feng shui practice but she wouldn't hear it). She walks around praying and shouting in tongues because she insists the Lord has promised her she would have riches in Christ Jesus, so where are they?!? This woman is getting housing assistance, but that was cut some because she got a raise on her job (Wal-Mart); she's being taken to court because she can't pay on some payday loan and pay her rent too. She doesn't qualify for foodstamps, but she can barely buy groceries. She owes the gas co. a few hundred dollars so she can't get her gas turned back on till she pays up (a friend is paying her gas bill for her, as an act of charity). Her car has set in the yard, not running, for almost 2 years. She tithes to TBN and TBN preachers (TD Jakes, Rod Parsley, Kenneth Copeland). Instead of focusing on her financial problems, she enrolled in a theology program operated by some college through a local church - she'll have a degree in a year. She did this because she believes it honors God. (She also believes she's destined to be a prophetess.) I don't know where she came up with the money for the school . . . Her irrational behavior is primarily, if not all, WOF doctrine-driven. And it is really sad. I pray for this woman, and her 12-yo son, regularly.

I use her as an example to say and show that WOF destroys people; it is a terrible deception. Maybe, just maybe, this weekend i convinced this gal to look into Consumer Credit Counselling. I am praying the Holy Spirit will show her that WOF is deceitful.

/rant

[His Bride]

WOF twists scripture and appeals to our flesh, just like Eve in the Garden of Eden.

[stormtrooper]

What exactly is "positive confession"? :confused

[70thWeek]

What exactly is "positive confession"? :confused

"I am healed. I am healed."

Psychologically speaking, there might be something here, but repeating these things to make spiritual things happen, probably not.

[Caretaker]

Positive Confession teaches its followers to visualize their desire, confess their desire and believe that because of God's promises He is bound by His promises to deliver on their confession, and if their faith is lacking then that is the reason that God does not deliver.

2 Cor. 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.


Evidently Paul lacked the proper measure of faith......NOT!!

[Not by Sight]

Having briefly attended a church such as this when I rededicated my life to the Lord after 13 years away from Him, I can add that the doctrines outlined by Becky aren't always blatantly taught. It is sort of subtle and confusing and it took me a while to catch on that while much of what was being taught was awesome and Biblical, there was enough "off" doctrine filtered in that I was not comfortable staying. I do not believe we are all called to perfect health and material wealth. I do believe we can live victorious, joyous, and peaceful abundant lives through Christ, but that doesn't mean our lives will fit the world's definition of health, welath, and happiness.

[Caretaker]

A young girl was deeply frightened and asked if she would be cursed by God for not giving for her Passover Blessing.

I advised her to place her faith and trust solely in Jesus and turn away from these wolves and apostles of deceit in sheeps clothing.

http://www.myfortress.org/stevemunsey.html




"The Lord is speaking to give $205.00 over the next 10 months...When you have that offering on the altar an angel will be dispatched to your house. Sickness will be taken away. Prosperity will come into your life. You will receive an inheritance!"
(Steve Munsey, "Spring Praise-A-Thon," TBN, April 6, 2005)

"I promise when you give this Passover Offering, God is going to do a miracle...God says, 'Go to the phone.'...God is speaking to somebody right now to give $2,000 right now!...You must go to the phone. Five $200 gifts. Go to the phone! What I'd like for you to do is, I'd like for you to put immediately something on the credit card, right now....Go to your phone. Five $200 offerings. Two $200 gifts. A $400 gift. A $600 gift. The Lord is speaking! This cannot be a light blessing."
(Steve Munsey, "This Is Your Day," Benny Hinn Show, March 16, 2005)

"Hezekiah turns his face, if I can do this. He turns his face, the Bible says, 'To the wall.' He starts weeping and prays this prayer and he says these words, 'Lord, I pray now that you will remember what I did for you.' All of the sudden, God says, 'What did he do for me?' And it dawned on Him [God] he restored the Passover Offering..." (See Isaiah 38-39)
(Steve Munsey, "This Is Your Day," Benny Hinn Show, March 16, 2005)
Note: It dawned on God? This is blasphemy! Nothing dawns on the All Knowing King of the Universe! "Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite," Psalm 147:5.

"I'm speaking to a businessman. I keep, I keep seeing you. The Lord is speaking to you to give $7,000."
(Steve Munsey, "LeSea Miracle Telethon," LeSea Network, March 24, 2005)

"Sickness is going to be removed from your body. You are going to do something that God says, 'When you stand before me with a Passover Offering, I will remove sickness."
(Steve Munsey, "LeSea Miracle Telethon," LeSea Network, March 24, 2005)

"I'm only talking to people who are tired of being sick. Does God lie? When God says, 'When you give the Passover Offering, I will take sickness away from you."
(Steve Munsey, "LeSea Miracle Telethon," LeSea Network, March 24, 2005)

"I'm talking to somebody who is sick. And God says, 'If you give the Passover Offering Exodus 22:35,' God says, 'I will take sickness away from you.' I'm talking to somebody that God is going to give you 15 more years on your life."
(Steve Munsey, "LeSea Miracle Telethon," LeSea Network, March 24, 2005)

"The Bible says, 'That the moment that you give the Passover Offering an angel of God has been assigned to you to keep you and lead you to your miracle."
(Steve Munsey, "LeSea Miracle Telethon," LeSea Network, March 24, 2005)

"What I'd like for some of you to do that are able to do it. I want you to put it on your credit card...And I might say, this cannot be a light offering."
(Steve Munsey, "LeSea Miracle Telethon," LeSea Network, March 24, 2005)

"The Lord spoke to me and said, 'That's the reason why I have adjusted monies, even an Income Tax to be returned in this time of the year so that there would be seed in Passover Offering.' The Lord is speaking to give $70.00. The Lord is speaking to give $170.00. The Lord is speaking to give $210.00. The Lord is speaking to give $280.00. Go to your phone right now and put a portion of it on your credit card."
(Steve Munsey, "LeSea Miracle Telethon," LeSea Network, March 24, 2005)

"He [God] said, 'Tell the people to give five $200 offerings. And He said, 'Give three $200 offerings, two $200 offerings."
(Steve Munsey, "This Is Your Day," Benny Hinn Show, March 16, 2005)

"If they stand before Me [God] empty handed, there will be no angel that will protect them! No angel to lead them to their miracle. Their sickness will stay in their body and I [God] will not be able to fight their enemies nor give them longevity of life..."
(Steve Munsey, "This Is Your Day," Benny Hinn Show, March 16, 2005)

"God said to tell them to give five $200 offerings."
(Steve Munsey, "This Is Your Day," Benny Hinn Show, January 20, 2005)

"The Holy Spirit said, 'Tell the people I want them to give $1,000."
(Steve Munsey, "This Is Your Day," Benny Hinn Show, January 20, 2005)

"The Holy Spirit spoke to me and said these words, He said, 'Tell the people to give a $1,000 offering.' And I said, 'Now, Lord, there's going to be many people that, that, when I say that their going to say,' Aww, I can't do that.' No, He said, 'You tell them to give five $200 offerings.'"
(Steve Munsey, "This Is Your Day," Benny Hinn Show, January 20, 2005)

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me and the Prophetic Word. No telling what is going to happen. I'm talking to people that are going to get inheritances. I'm talking about in the next 10 days, 50 days there's going to be things that are going to happen. But, that will not happen until you put your offering on the altar."
(Steve Munsey, "This Is Your Day," Benny Hinn Show, January 20, 2005)

"Go get an envelope. For goodness sake! Please listen to what the Lord is saying...I want you to go get an envelope. I want you to write this address down. I want you right now, stop everything and write that check and move it into the mail!...The mailbox is where you're going. That's your next stop!"
(Steve Munsey, "This Is Your Day," Benny Hinn Show, January 20, 2005)

"If you want prosperity you must speak it...It's not up to God or the Devil, it's up to you!"
(Steve Munsey, LeSea Network, April 24, 2004, 'Speak To Your Future')

Steve Munsey: And I want to tell you that God is speaking right now! You need to go to the phones...Immediately get this on the altar...The Spirit of the Lord is speaking strongly. There is someone watching right now, the Lord is speaking and He said, 'If you say it I will do it.' I'm going to say it, '$79,000.' God is speaking to people to give $79.00. God is speaking to people to give $790.00. As quick as you can get it on the altar. Something in the heavenlies is going to open up and there is going to be a supply of supernatural. And there is going to be double portion that is going to overtake your life. I feel it strong!
Benny Hinn: I do too, I tell you! Well, do it now! Do it today! Call the number on your screen and sow that seed or send it in the mail.
Steve Munsey: Can they put it on a credit card possibly?
Benny Hinn: Yes, absolutely they can!
Steve Munsey: Because the speedier they can get it on the altar. It is a moment and it probably is going to be the greatest that we have ever had!
(Steve Munsey, "This Is Your Day," Benny Hinn Show, August 27, 2004)

"The Holy Spirit spoke to me and said, 'Tell the people, tell the people that they are to go and they are to give. They are to give a $79.00 offering..."
(Steve Munsey, "This Is Your Day," Benny Hinn Show, August 27, 2004)

"I would suggest to everyone right now and you need to get on the phone. I don't know if they have phone numbers on the screen. You need to call and say, 'I'm going to give the $79.00. I'm going to give the $790.00'....And I'm going to prophesy, 'The next six months, the power, the most powerful double portion is going to happen."
(Steve Munsey, "This Is Your Day," Benny Hinn Show, August 27, 2004)

"Now there's, there's, let me show you something else that the Lord is speaking. There are people that are watching that the Lord is speaking to give $790.00. There are businesses, now let me tell you something about businesses. There are business men that God is speaking to, to give $7,900 in the name of your business."
(Steve Munsey, "This Is Your Day," Benny Hinn Show, August 27, 2004)

"We are going to give. When you give today you are putting it on the altar. A few minutes ago the Spirit of the Lord spoke to me and said, 'Tell the people that when they give that I'm going to do the same thing that I did to Job. I'm going to put a double portion on their life'...Anybody want double portion on your life? I can't hear you. Anybody want double portion on your life?...The Bible says, 'When Job gave the offering,' the Bible said, 'That's when God responded!...The Lord spoke to me and said, 'Tell the people to give a $77.00 offering or a $7.00 offering or a $700.00 offering'...There's a double portion going to come upon your life...God I'm putting this on the altar so we can have revival. So that we can have a mighty move of your Spirit in this nation. We claim it! We speak it!..."
(Steve Munsey, "America for Jesus," Daystar Television, October 22, 2004)

[stormtrooper]

Thanks 70thWeek and Caretaker. I figured it was some sort of religious, feel good, psychobabble.

Caretaker, your last post with all the quotes from Munsey...:doh

Sounds like a mix between a carnival barker and a conman. :rolleyes

[carmen]

"We are going to give. When you give today you are putting it on the altar. A few minutes ago the Spirit of the Lord spoke to me and said, 'Tell the people that when they give that I'm going to do the same thing that I did to Job. I'm going to put a double portion on their life'...Anybody want double portion on your life? I can't hear you. Anybody want double portion on your life?...The Bible says, 'When Job gave the offering,' the Bible said, 'That's when God responded!...The Lord spoke to me and said, 'Tell the people to give a $77.00 offering or a $7.00 offering or a $700.00 offering'...There's a double portion going to come upon your life...(Steve Munsey, "America for Jesus," Daystar Television, October 22, 2004)Think he's referring to the double portion of tragedy Job experienced???? :rolleyes I bet he probably just forgot that part of the story. What a surprise.

[70thWeek]

Think he's referring to the double portion of tragedy Job experienced???? :rolleyes I bet he probably just forgot that part of the story. What a surprise.

My guess is that he doesn't even know what "double portion" means.

[Caretaker]

Thanks 70thWeek and Caretaker. I figured it was some sort of religious, feel good, psychobabble.

Caretaker, your last post with all the quotes from Munsey...:doh

Sounds like a mix between a carnival barker and a conman. :rolleyes



When I first heard from the teenage girl who was scared, I intentially went to the next Benny Hinn show that was on and there was the same Barker "pitch". These are snakeoil salesmen in the House of the Lord, and it just makes me want to grab up a big stick and clean house.

The sheer putrid pablum coming from the empty wells makes me so angry about those precious souls who are being deceived and led astray by "the annointed".

[Becky]

I feel sorry for the poor widows who give all they have because these idiots tell them to. They are going to have to stand before the Lord one day.

[Team Noah]

maybe they think WOF stands for Wheel of Fortune



I think what Carmen said makes some good points


IMHO, they haven't taken the time to learn what the Word actually teaches, as opposed to taking verses out of context,......//....WOF is takes Scripture and twists it, and takes it out of context, in a way that is both dangerous to true Christian faith and disgusting. It dishonors the very Word God gave us to use it in such a way. For profit, money, of all things!

People that don't see it that way, haven't taken the time to learn what the Word actually teaches. Instead, they are taking the message of those that teach WOF, and assuming it to be true. It is easier to follow than to discover the truth for ourselves. I am sure Christ weeps over how easily, like sheep, we are led astray :cry.





does it bother anyone else that Oral Roberts has to wear glasses?



:twitch

[stormtrooper]

When I first heard from the teenage girl who was scared, I intentially went to the next Benny Hinn show that was on and there was the same Barker "pitch". These are snakeoil salesmen in the House of the Lord, and it just makes me want to grab up a big stick and clean house.

The sheer putrid pablum coming from the empty wells makes me so angry about those precious souls who are being deceived and led astray by "the annointed".

Couldn't have said it better myself. :thumb

[70thWeek]

maybe they think WOF stands for Wheel of Fortune



I think what Carmen said makes some good points




does it bother anyone else that Oral Roberts has to wear glasses?



:twitch

No.

Oral didn't teach that God heals in every instance. He taught that God still heals. Oral was all about combining doctors and prayer as well.

[countmeworthy]

For the most part I agree wholeheartedly with everyone's views on WoF.

But I'm going to share with you my experience with WoF. ????

First off, I had NO IDEA what WoF was until I came on board, which was sometime this summer I believe.

2ndly, to the best of my recollection, I've always been a very 'positive' person. Even in my darkest hours, very, VERY few people knew how dark those hours were. The Lord knew of course & I prayed with heavy duty tears in those days.

3rdly... I'm pretty sure that the church I attend is WoF. I know for a fact that my pastor knows some of these preachers mentioned. I also know he doesn't agree with everything they believe because he's told us, though not in great detail.

I do know the church's WoF ministry doesn't meet the same criteria as what has been listed here.

I've been attending this church since January of this year after not having been in a church well over 20 years. I was pretty much an 'individual' Christian...kinda like John the Baptist, talking about the Lord, leading people to the Lord but not really planted in a church because of the burn out I went through with the last church I was in.

I will say I was/am very cautious and do look to the Lord for discernment if it's a Church I should not be in fellowship with. I don't want to be decieved, misled or burned.

However, my experience so far has been very positive. Look. I have had severe Rheumatoid Arthritis for the last 4 years. I have seen & still AM seeing Medical doctors, have seen naturopaths, had accupuncture for 2 years, once-twice a week, have done juice cleansing, vitamins/supplements and even have had 'healing' prayers for me.

Well, Thanks to a combination of things, I'm much better these days but not out of the wood works !! I have trouble walking for long periods of time etc... but NO ONE in the church looks down at me because I haven't been 'healed' !

Do I confess being healed in the name of Jesus??
Yeppers...all the time but I don't focus on THAT particular prayer.

As far as I can remember, I've always tried to make lemonade out of lemons even though I haven't always succeeded !!

I KNOW people do not like to hear people wallow in their sorrows continuously. So even when I was extremely ill, and people were pained to see me in my condition, I'd always say: 'There's a reason I'm going through this. But I'm going to beat it. I believe in God to get me through it.'

I always smiled at them but in private I SCREAMED IN AGONY as the pain was sooo excruciating. I can honestly say even though I'm not out of the wood works, the Lord has turned my mourning into dancing for me.

Recently, our pastor & his wife shared how a good woman friend of theirs came down with Breast cancer. They prayed for healing over her and the woman then told them she appreciated their prayers but was going to opt for chemo, trusting the Lord for His healing on her through chemo. They fully supported her decision, without hesitation.

A couple of weeks ago, my pastor's wife called the woman to see how she was doing. She told her that she is still going through chemo but was sooo excited and filled with the joy of the Lord because everytime she goes for her treatment, the people around her are soo discouraged and she gets to share the gospel with them !!! She uplifts their hearts and gives them hope in the Lord. My pastor & his wife were delighted and overjoyed with her testimony and shared it with us.

Another interesting observation... a few weeks ago, my pastor shared STRONGLY on the rapture. I had NEVER heard him speak in such a sobering and strong manner. He confessed and repented to the congregation that for many years he and other Faith Word ministers preached on storing treasures here on earth rather than in heaven.

He shared how he got caught up with wanting people to prosper that he & others lost sight of teaching to store our treasures in heaven. (paraphrasing here.) (That was the first time I heard him refer to his ministry as WoF or a branch of it.)

So even though I'm fairly certain my church is WoF, the pastors don't focus on $$$$ or on Healing.

The Word of GOD is RICH there. Strong, Healthy MEAT...and we have alot of home care groups/bible studies. I love the people there and am getting to know more & more of them with each passing week.

We do have to ask & seek discernment & protection from the wolves disguised in sheep's clothing. That said, I also believe as we get closer to the rapture, the Lord is going to expose and bring down the wolves.

The tares and the wheat will be seperated at harvest time and Harvest is pretty close at hand now.

God bless everyone here with His Wisdom, Understanding, Insight, Revelation, Protection and most importantly with His Love.

[carmen]

3rdly... I'm pretty sure that the church I attend is WoF. I know for a fact that my pastor knows some of these preachers mentioned. I also know he doesn't agree with everything they believe because he's told us, though not in great detail.What is it that they teach that makes you say they are Word of Faith? I don't see anything in your post that would make me think they were, so there must be more?

[CountryBumpkin]

Becky, thank you so much for opening this up. I was so grieved to see the number of members supporting wof.
My friend and I got caught up in it about 4 years ago and I even became a partner to Copeland. We were both single battling moms, lonely in a new country and very Bible illiterate. The wof teachers on tv were convincing - for a while, but as I grew hungry for the truth and the Word I realised so much was wrong. :freaked The more grounded I became in God's Word the more I could spot these charlatans. That I think is the missing element, knowledge and spiritual understanding of His Word.
Sad thing is, my friend still follows them and won't listen to anything said against them.

[carmen]

The more grounded I became in God's Word the more I could spot these charlatans. That I think is the missing element, knowledge and spiritual understanding of His Word. :clap You are exactly right, sister! I applaud you for searching the Word yourself and following it instead of man (I say that not just about WOF, but just in general :):). May we all be that faithful and committed to following Him :nod

[busterdog]

I try to be hard-core on the inerrancy thing, which leaves me with a great deal of dissatisfaction with the attacks on WOF based on scripture. Submission is perfect freedom, but it is not incompatible with some really essential WOF ideas. Without endorsing any WOF preacher, many are repeating what the Master taught.

[busterdog]

Good points, everyone. :thumb

I would like to hear the defense of a Word of Faith supporter.

We have had a couple of long threads on this. I would not presume to "restore such a one [as you] in a spirit of gentleness", but I do as you know like to weigh in on these matters, gently. I am happy that we confess and serve the same Jesus Christ.

[countmeworthy]

What is it that they teach that makes you say they are Word of Faith? I don't see anything in your post that would make me think they were, so there must be more?


Not to my knowledge. There is some focus on believing and speaking blessings of prosperity. But THAT is not the ONLY focus.The pastors do encourage us to speak positively, such as 'By Jesus' stripes I AM HEALED. The pastor does have healing services a couple of times a year. Some people get healed & others don't.

From what I have read here on the board about the gospel of prosperity and healing, I thought maybe my church leans on WoF. I know my pastor knows John Hagee, Ken Copeland, Marilyn Hickey, Jesse Duplantis, & Oral Roberts. I don't know how well he knows them and he HAS said he doesn't agree with some of the things/beliefs of Kenneth Copeland but doesn't put him down. He doesn't put anyone down. However, he HAS warned us to be careful and watchful of wolves in sheeps clothing.

He has not mentioned how he feels about the others or how well he is associated with them.

The main focus of the ministry is for us to read the Word, stay focused on the Lord....love & fellowship with one another and the blessings will come. Our church from what I can see, is not a 'social club' either. People are always fellowshipping & I just love it !!!

My pastor is also VERY WEALTHY. I Know as I went to his home this past weekend for fellowship. But neither he & his wife or the other pastors are pretentious. They don't wear million dollar clothes even though they live in a million or more dollar home. And I know they don't own their own jet either...yet.. LOL. :laugh I jest because I know some of these preachers do own their own private jet. And my pastors travel ALOT to Johanasburg, South Africa where their sister church is but they fly commercial to my knowledge.

There are 3 services held. One on Saturday evenings & 2 on Sunday mornings. They usually wear the same clothes on Sunday that they wore on Saturday evenings & as I stated, their clothes are not anywhere like the clothes say, Joel Osteen or Joyce Meyers wears.

Their ministry 'mission statement' is:
To develop the believer in Christian Maturity and equip them for their ministry, to bring people into the family of Jesus Christ.

[askM]

2 Tim 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but {wanting} to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

WOF produces a high amount of garbage for the itching ears who terribly want to believe that life will be free of pain or troubles if you can "claim it" and command God strongly enough to do your will.

What a shame. I feel sorry for people who don't know their bible and get sucked into that whole movement of heretics.

[Jiggy37]

To sum this up as concisely as I can manage:

The desire to believe something is true dominates the reason to believe something is true.

[BHiles]

Money for nothing and their kicks for free. :tape

[Becky]

Money for nothing and their kicks for free. :tape:lol Oh now stop it. :B:

[Becky]

I try to be hard-core on the inerrancy thing, which leaves me with a great deal of dissatisfaction with the attacks on WOF based on scripture. Submission is perfect freedom, but it is not incompatible with some really essential WOF ideas. Without endorsing any WOF preacher, many are repeating what the Master taught.They have a lot of great teaching but intermixed is heresy. You can't deny some of the strange things they have taught. :sigh

[Becky]

We have had a couple of long threads on this. I would not presume to "restore such a one [as you] in a spirit of gentleness", but I do as you know like to weigh in on these matters, gently. I am happy that we confess and serve the same Jesus Christ.Me too. :):

[Gordon b]

People who believe in WOF are just like those that play the lottery or slot machines. They just want to get lucky.

[BHiles]

:lol Oh now stop it. :B:

I had to write something to counter all that in depth exegesis :nerd

Smarty pants.

[blitzkreig]

Why do people support Word of Faith?It is actually slightly broader than the narrow "WOF" only ... but the answer is to fulfil prophecy of apostacy in these end times ...

2Ti 4:3-4
(3) For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
(4) And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

[Joel]

It is actually slightly broader than the narrow "WOF" only

Broader in what sense I wonder?

[CountryBumpkin]

This is Kenneth Copeland’s devotion for Dec 5th. Notice how he totally twists scripture to support his doctrine. :tsk
What Riches Were Meant to Do
Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
–(Ephesians 4:28)

It always amazes me when I preach about prosperity and someone comes up to me and says, "I don't need much prosperity. I'm a simple person with a simple life. So I just ask God for enough to meet my needs."

They think that's humility, but it's not. It's selfishness! They don't realize it, but they're actually saying, "All I care about is meeting my own needs. I have no ambition to help meet anyone else's."

They could ask God for a million dollars, take out just enough to meet their needs, and give the rest away. But that doesn't even occur to them because when it comes to money, they've been brainwashed by a world that says if you have it, you've got to keep it.

That philosophy has hindered the ministry of Jesus Christ on the earth today. It has caused preachers to set aside their calling and get secular jobs just to survive. It's handicapped churches and stunted the growth of ministries that could have reached thousands more for the Lord.

It takes money to preach the gospel. Jesus Himself knew that, and contrary to what some people think, His ministry was not a poor one. He had so much money coming in and going out through His ministry that He had to appoint a treasurer. His name was Judas.

But Jesus didn't store up that money for Himself. He gave it to meet the needs of those around Him. He had such a reputation for giving that on the night of that last Passover when Judas left so abruptly, the disciples assumed that Jesus had sent him out to give to the poor.

Can you imagine how much and how often Jesus must have given to the poor for the disciples to make that assumption?

Jesus never built a worldly empire for Himself. But that doesn't mean He was poor. It means He was the greatest giver who ever walked the face of this earth, and it's time we started following in His footsteps.

Don't turn down the wealth God wants to give you just because you don't "need" it. Dare to accept it, then pass it along to those who do. Stop working for a living and start working for a "giving." Discover for yourself what riches were really meant to do.


Scripture Reading: Luke 12:15-31


It makes me feel sick. :faint :yuck

[frisian1970]

Thanks, 70th. I appreciate you explaining that.:nod Thanks 70th.

[Joel]

Country, the gist of that sounds like 'give so you can bless others'.

How is that wrong?

There were a few lines I didn't agree with, yes, but the message seemed to be focused on 'others' and not 'self', no?

[Joel]

Do I confess being healed in the name of Jesus??
Yeppers...all the time

What is it that they teach that makes you say they are Word of Faith? I don't see anything in your post that would make me think they were, so there must be more?

So I take it the above isn't deemed 'WoF'?

It's one thing to be presumptous and demand of God something, it's alltogether another thing when people believe they're standing on a promise of God, is it not?

[Not denying reality, yet believing in God's truths]

[Becky]

Joel, that is because what Kenneth Copeland is teaching is heresy. It has nothing to do with selflessness but everything to do with selfishness.

[Joel]

Okay, but that was a very generic answer. :B:


I don't agree with the 'Jesus was rich' idea...
but is he not saying learn how to be a better giver, and not store it up for yourself? :confused

I may have read it differently. :noidea

[carmen]

I took that to mean that people that have been healed are actually crediting God with the healing. Is this incorrect?

[Joel]

She was speaking of herself, not others. :):

I have trouble walking for long periods of time etc... but NO ONE in the church looks down at me because I haven't been 'healed' !

Do I confess being healed in the name of Jesus??
Yeppers...all the time

I took that to mean that people that have been healed are actually crediting God with the healing. Is this incorrect?

[carmen]

She was speaking of herself, not others. :):Whomever she was speaking of, I took it to mean that actual healing had taken place :lol

[Joel]

:lol

I have trouble walking for long periods of time etc... but NO ONE in the church looks down at me because I haven't been 'healed' !

Do I confess being healed in the name of Jesus??
Yeppers...all the time

This would seem to imply she's not healed.

I took it she was standing on what she perceived to be a promise of God...

not denying the reality of the situation, yet believing in what she interprets is God's promises?

I may be misreading myself. :B:

[ginnae]

Country, the gist of that sounds like 'give so you can bless others'.

How is that wrong?

There were a few lines I didn't agree with, yes, but the message seemed to be focused on 'others' and not 'self', no?

I can't recall if Copeland ever taught the 100-fold return, but I know that some of the WOFers do. And they do not always stress that it is not for our benefit.

My former pastor and his wife follows all those tv preachers and they teach the sowing and reaping concept with the 100 fold return. He stood in church one day telling us how God wants us to live an abundant life and that there is no reason why we all can't have a cadilic. He goes on to point out that someone in our church does drive one. He doesn't because he is quite happy to drive his truck.

Then they went on to teach my children that when you give God money he will return it to you 100-fold. I then noticed my son offering 1/2 of his $2 allowence each week. If his heart was in the right place, I won't have cared, but you know what, I was sowing in belief he would get 100 fold back so that he could buy a video game.

When I confronted the pastor and his wife, they agreed that they should stress more about the heart of giving and not wanting back. But at the end, the pastors wife (she is the one who was teaching this to the kids) said well, at least he was acting in faith. :doh It seemed she just didn't see the point on how wrong it was to give to God in hopes for getting a lot of money back for oneself.

[carmen]

:lol



This would seem to imply she's not healed.

I took it she was standing on what she perceived to be a promise of God...

not denying the reality of the situation, yet believing in what she interprets is God's promises?

I may be misreading myself. :B:

You're right; thanks for pointing that out. I didn't read as thoroughly as I should :doh

I don't understand, Count, why you would feel the need to profess God has healed you, when plainly He has not. In 2 Corinthians 12:9-10, Paul didn't feel the need to do that over his thorn in the flesh. He simply acknowledged that the weakness was there, in spite of his asking it to be removed, and said:9 But he [Jesus] said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.
10 That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.I just don't see a biblical principle taught anywhere in the whole of Scripture that calls us to deny reality. Instead, we are to follow Christ, all the while acknowledging our weakness and need of Him to help and assist us.

[Joel]

You're right; thanks for pointing that out. I didn't read as thoroughly as I should :doh

I don't understand, Count, why you would feel the need to profess God has healed you, when plainly He has not. In 2 Corinthians 12:9-10, Paul didn't feel the need to do that over his thorn in the flesh. He simply acknowledged that the weakness was there, in spite of his asking it to be removed, and said:I just don't see a biblical principle taught anywhere in the whole of Scripture that calls us to deny reality. Instead, we are to follow Christ, all the while acknowledging our weakness and need of Him to help and assist us.

The way I interpret it, she plainly acknowledged she was not healed [therefore not denying reality], but stood in faith that she was healed [according to a promise of God I presume].

What then is the biblical standard for 'standing on the promises of God' other than believing them to be truth, inspite of the current circumstance [which, again, you don't deny its very real reality]? (This is where many hyper-faith people get off-kilter)

[carmen]

The way I interpret it, she plainly acknowledged she was not healed [therefore not denying reality], but stood in faith that she was healed [according to a promise of God I presume].:noidea When I read:Do I confess being healed in the name of Jesus??
Yeppers...all the time I hear "being" in the present sense, not the future sense. To me, that denies reality, if in fact, a person isn't healed. To say that both are true--currently healed, but not--doesn't make sense, unless I am missing something. The only time I see something similar is in the sense of the way God views us (justified and sanctified in Christ) and our actual reality (in the process of being sanctified right now). Nonetheless, I acknowledge that, in the present tense and physical reality I amd NOT fully santctified, but still being shaped. That is part of the mystery of being hidden in Christ. This seems an entirely different animal to me (again, unless I am missing something).

What then is the biblical standard for 'standing on the promises of God' other than believing them to be truth, inspite of the current circumstance [which, again, you don't deny its very real reality]? (This is where many hyper-faith people get off-kilter)I stand on the promise that I will be made perfect spiritually, and be given a perfect body someday, along with a perfect emotional and mental state. However, I do NOT say that I already perfect, again, except in the sense of how God views my spiritual standing before Him as hidden in Christ. However, even given the latter, I wouldn't go around saying I was perfect. Instead I say that I will be made perfect.

[Joel]

:noidea When I read:I hear "being" in the present sense, not the future sense.

To me, that denies reality, if in fact, a person isn't healed. To say that both are true--currently healed, but not--doesn't make sense, unless I am missing something.
Well, she also said this ...

I have trouble walking for long periods of time
but NO ONE in the church looks down at me because I haven't been 'healed' !

So it would appear to be doing that which doesn't make sense. :):
But is that not possible?

Can we not affirm the present reality of the situation [lack of health] yet also affirm God's eternal truths and promises?

I suppose it all comes down to what we recognize God has promised, no?

The only time I see something similar is in the sense of the way God views us (justified and sanctified in Christ) and our actual reality (in the process of being sanctified right now).
It's similar to this.

Nonetheless, I acknowledge that, in the present tense and physical reality I amd NOT fully santctified, but still being shaped. That is part of the mystery of being hidden in Christ. This seems an entirely different animal to me (again, unless I am missing something).

Of course, we recognize the present, and do not deny it at all...
this is where the hyper-faith gets out of hand.

This is where people think they are more than they are in the present reality of things...

and they don't take their medicine, and don't go to the Dr., and they jump off buildings thinking they can fly when clearly they have no wings attached to them....



I stand on the promise that I will be made perfect spiritually, and be given a perfect body someday, along with a perfect emotional and mental state. However, I do NOT say that I already perfect, again, except in the sense of how God views my spiritual standing before Him as hidden in Christ. However, even given the latter, I wouldn't go around saying I was perfect. Instead I say that I will be made perfect.

I would choose to say 'I will be made whole', as well, for clarity's sake.

Other than that, it seems to be semantics.

It's simply believing God has accomplished a work in you/for you... but it has to be manifest in His Time - whether that is here or in the life to come.

Did that make ANY sense? :twitch


:doh

[carmen]

I would choose to say 'I will be made whole', as well, for clarity's sake.

Other than that, it seems to be semantics.IMHO, it's more than semantics and clarity, because it comes off sounding as if what is being professed has already happened, when it has not, not in our time space continuum (to use a Star Trek phrase :lol). IMHO, this damages our witness and misrepresents (however unintentionally) before a watching world.

You either ARE perfect or physically healthy in THIS space-time, or you are not. We generally don't walk around talking about how we are perfect in real-time conversation. If we are talking about our current standing before God, or our perfection in Christ, I have yet to hear anyone NOT qualify the issue in that way so it is clear that they acknowledge they aren't speaking about the here-and-now, on planent Earth of the physical plane.

I see where you are coming from, but the danger in speaking as though the future IS the present is great and should be diffused, IMHO, by a qualifier. I see no need to leave it off. Certainly the NT doesn't leave it off--it differentiates. IMHO, so should we.

Did that make ANY sense? :twitch

:dohProbably more than I did :lol

[countmeworthy]

To every coin, there are two sides.

Certainly, the Lord has & continues to make me STRONG in my weakness & my infirmities. I don't deny that I'm out of the wood works but flipping the coin over, I DO believe there is power in our words. If we speak negative, the more our personalities will manifest itself in negativism.

Proverbs 12:18
Reckless words pierce like a sword,
but the tongue of the wise brings healing.

Proverbs 16:24
Pleasant words are a honeycomb,
sweet to the soul and healing to the bones.




It's obvious to me and those around me that I struggle walking but I refuse to focus on myself. If I need help, I do acknowledge it & ask for it.

My affliction IS NOT my focus though. I don't go around saying, 'I'm afflicted with RA, Woe is me'..God wants me to be sick.'

On the contrary, I rejoice in the Lord. And often times when I am in pain, I tell the Lord, I may be in Pain but I STILL LOVE YOU, Praise You, Worship You, Glorify You and Bless you. I don't care what my body is feeling, I believe that by your stripes, I AM HEALED.

THIS is HOW I PRAY and glorify the LORD. I am filled with the joy of the Lord praying and 'claiming'. I assure you, as I do this, I encourage sooo many people around me!!!

And one of these days, soon I believe, I AM GOING TO HAVE A NEW BODY anyway!!

Btw, I remember someone sharing this very interesting point of view, if you will about Abram and Abraham.

God told Abram he was going to be the 'father of many nations' when he was 75 if I recall correctly. He and his wife Sarai, were childless, and after some time went by, as we all know, Sarai decided to 'help' God and gave her handmaid, Hagar to Abram. They conceived Ishmael. BUT THAT WASN'T THE WAY God planned to bless Abram !!!

So at 99 yrs of age, I believe it was, God changed Abram's name to Abraham, which means the Father of many Nations.

So now, everytime someone addressed him as Abram. 'Yo Abram!' :D: he would have to tell them, my name is not Abram anymore for the Lord changed my name to Abraham (Father of many nations.) Everytime he introduced himself, he referred to himself as 'Abraham, Father of many nations.' He probably had to correct people constantly who used to address him as Abram.

So, over & over, he spoke the statement: I am Abraham, Father of many Nations. I am Abraham, Father of many Nations. I am Abraham, Father of many nations.

In 3 months time, he and Sarah conceived, a most impossible human feat but GOD HAD promised them seed. But nothing happened when God told ABRAM he was going to be the father of many nations because Abram didn't go around saying 'I am the Father of many Nations.' So God changed his name so he would proclaim God's promise to him.

When God changed his name & he went around addressing himself by his new name, Issac was conceived.

Now some people may not agree with this analogy and that is certainly you're perogative. I CHOOSE to speak positively at all times and whether my body is manifesting the healing or not, I have inner peace and joy unspeakable, full of Glory.

If anything, I have a wonderful outlook on life and I believe wholeheartedly that my positive speaking has blessed me in more ways than I can share here.

Proverbs 18:21
The tongue has the power of life and death, and those who love it will eat its fruit.

[Joel]

IMHO, it's more than semantics and clarity, because it comes off sounding as if what is being professed has already happened, when it has not, not in our time space continuum (to use a Star Trek phrase :lol). IMHO, this damages our witness and misrepresents (however unintentionally) before a watching world.
I understand. (star trek :lol)

As I was just discussing this, it is good to be mindful of our audience, the context, and their notions, etc.

You either ARE perfect or physically healthy in THIS space-time, or you are not. We generally don't walk around talking about how we are perfect in real-time conversation.
Of course. :nod

Affirming the reality [which is something we should never deny] is saying you are not whole, and yet also affirming God's truths/promises would neccessiate a qualifier, IMHO.

If we are talking about our current standing before God, or our perfection in Christ, I have yet to hear anyone NOT qualify the issue in that way so it is clear that they acknowledge they aren't speaking about the here-and-now, on planent Earth of the physical plane.

I see where you are coming from, but the danger in speaking as though the future IS the present is great and should be diffused, IMHO, by a qualifier. I see no need to leave it off. Certainly the NT doesn't leave it off--it differentiates. IMHO, so should we.
I see what you are saying as well, and can agree definitely. Maybe I didn't say it out loud, but inserting a qualifier is definitely preferred speech.

Probably more than I did :lol
Nah. it's good to learn, share, and discuss. :):


I'm just thinking the mindset of those that cling to God's promises are...
that they choose to place their focus on God's goodness, rather than their need.

But to deny the need outright is foolishness [or to 'forget mentioning it'], can damage [and is where the hyper-faith comes in, as demonstrated before].

[carmen]

There is a line between complaining continually, and saying you're healed when you're plainly not. The two aren't even really the same thing. You can acknowledge that your body isn't healthy, but not be complaining. And you can say that you are walking on in the joy of the Lord, and the promise of your new body someday, without saying you are healed NOW :):

I can't help but think about the witness my mother gave me as I grew up while she suffered with terminal cancer. She was afflicted with it before I was born, and she went home when I was about 12. Her eventual death was accepted and spoken about in our home; we all knew it was coming, and she prepared me for that. Had she continually been telling me she was healed, and then just died, I believe my faith would have been shattered. Instead, she gave a witness of how to persevere IN SPITE OF her suffering. She didn't walk around moaning about her condition or her shortened life span. Instead, she saved pain medication for the days when we could go out together and "make memories," as she called it. I am more grateful than I can express that she didn't deceive me or attempt to prevaricate about her condition. My hope is built on nothing less, than Jesus Christ and His righteousness. But my mother gave me the REALITY of what it's like to follow Him in spite of illness and in the face of death. I treasure that example and, should I ever be in that position, now know how to live and walk through it because of what she did and the way she did it. It is a gift beyond measure.

I also treasure the way Christ walked through His suffering, and Paul as well. They didn't deny their weakness in the face of pain and suffering. They acknowledged it and walked on in God's will anyway. I just don't see them professing what isn't present in reality.

I am not trying to be ugly or divisive here, Count. But I am saying that professing something to be reality, when it is plainly not, is not bibilical or scriptural. Please forgive me if I seem harsh or ugly, because I don't wan to sound that way :(:. I know of no other way to speak than bluntly :hug. But there are too many people out there that have been hurt by this movement; too many sick people that aren't well and think it is because their faith is lacking; too many people who have had family members die and turned away from God because they professed they were well, but God took them anyway. WOF damages people. So, over & over, he spoke the statement: I am Abraham, Father of many Nations. I am Abraham, Father of many Nations. I am Abraham, Father of many nations.
I would humbly and sincerely ask, can you show me the scripture where he went around doing this?

[Joel]

Perhaps it's more when His truths/promises manifest in our reality [in His timing]?

They are secured in the eternal view of things, but obviously, you do not try and delude oneself into neglecting the very real temporal reality, either. [in terms of health, etc]

[carmen]

Perhaps it's more when His truths/promises manifest in our reality [in His timing]?

They are secured in the eternal view of things, but obviously, you do not try and delude oneself into neglecting the very real temporal reality, either. [in terms of health, etc]How we present ourselves is important too, though, and has to be addressed. Our primary mission is as witnesses.

[Joel]

In terms of health [spiritual/physical], the reason I bring up 'I suppose it comes down to what we recognize God has promised us'...

is due to the following verse, which is popularly shown to be a promise/and a truth we can stand on .

'By His Stripes[I] I am healed'.

Now whether this manfiests itself in His timing today, or - in the life to come, it's still truth in the eternal perspective, no?

[Joel]

As I was just discussing this, it is good to be mindful of our audience, the context, and their notions, etc.

How we present ourselves is important too, though, and has to be addressed. Our primary mission is as witnesses.

:nod

[carmen]

In terms of health [spiritual/physical], the reason I bring up 'I suppose it comes down to what we recognize God has promised us'...

is due to the following verse, which is popularly shown to be a promise/and a truth we can stand on .

'By His Stripes[I] I am healed'.

Now whether this manfiests itself in His timing today, or - in the life to come, it's still truth in the eternal perspective, no?Joel, I think you know that I am not going to deny that eventually we are all going to be made perfect, physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. That isn't the point, and I feel that that is obvious :):

The key is that, right now, we are NOT healed in all those ways. The only one that we can currently apply, IN THE PRESENT SENSE, is that of the spiritual. In Christ, as far as our standing before God, we are currently made perfect. That isn't true for our physically, because our standing before God isn't a physical thing, or an emotional thing, or a mental thing.

[Joel]

It's been fun going back & forth - I have to grab lunch for this present time/space reality dictates that I am hungry. Shalom :D:

:lol

[Joel]

Joel, I think you know that I am not going to deny that eventually we are all going to be made perfect, physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. That isn't the point, and I feel that that is obvious :):

Perhaps our perspectives are focused on different points of the argument then. Sorry! :doh


The key is that, right now, we are NOT healed in all those ways. The only one that we can currently apply, IN THE PRESENT SENSE, is that of the spiritual. In Christ, as far as our standing before God, we are currently made perfect. That isn't true for our physically, because our standing before God isn't a physical thing, or an emotional thing, or a mental thing.

Yes, as said before, the current reality dictates we're not healed, or whatever the ailment is.

That's called not denying reality. So we both understand this. :):

It's by faith we stand on the promises, and believe in His timing these will be manifest.

[Becky]

Joel, this is not whether or not God heals or blesses us. It's about what these people are teaching: 9 part god, we are all gods, give us your money and God will make you rich and heal you.

That is the whole point of this thread. The Word of Faith false teachers are walking a very dangerous road and God will not stand for this much longer, I'm sure.

[carmen]

It's by faith we stand on the promises, and believe in His timing these will be manifest.So perhaps the only thing we disagree on is how important it is to clarify whether one is saying that one is CURRENTLY healed or made perfect (other than spiritually, with the qualifier that that is our standing before God and not that we are perfectly sinless in the here and now), or whether one should just say "I am healed" and let it go at that. To me, the latter is presents an unscriptural and deceptive picture of the way God works, and our reality in a fallen world.

[busterdog]

In 2 Corinthians 12:9-10, Paul didn't feel the need to do that over his thorn in the flesh. He simply acknowledged that the weakness was there, in spite of his asking it to be removed, and said:

Unfortunately, I think most readings of Paul and the thorn presume a great deal. Like Paul's great faith. Maybe he hadn't great faith for that. That it was an illness? Much is presumed about the way in which God was sufficient in this weakness.

[carmen]

Unfortunately, I think most readings of Paul and the thorn presume a great deal. Like Paul's great faith. Maybe he hadn't great faith for that. That it was an illness? Much is presumed about the way in which God was sufficient in this weakness.:freaked

Are you saying that you feel Paul's faith was lacking and that is why God didn't remove the thorn he referred to???

[busterdog]

So perhaps the only thing we disagree on is how important it is to clarify whether one is saying that one is CURRENTLY healed or made perfect (other than spiritually, with the qualifier that that is our standing before God and not that we are perfectly sinless in the here and now), or whether one should just say "I am healed" and let it go at that. To me, the latter is presents an unscriptural and deceptive picture of the way God works, and our reality in a fallen world.

Let's look less at "the way God works" and more at what he asks of us. We are to praise him in all things. He is present in his praise. (Ps. 22) Can we not all agree to praise God for being Jehova-Raffa? I tell you that I am struck at how little praise I give in ordinary convesation, even just to say to a friend that God is a way maker and a healer and I thank him for what he has done for me. To adopt the past tense as in the "positive confession," He is already a healer. I think we can all agree on this, though I understand that there are "positive confessions" that spawn disagreement. I wonder how much more healing there might be if we just attended to the obvious. Mere praise also makes room for submission and sovereignty that is at issue.

[carmen]

Let's look less at "the way God works" and more at what he asks of us. We are to praise him in all things. He is present in his praise. (Ps. 22) Can we not all agree to praise God for being Jehova-Raffa? I tell you that I am struck at how little praise I give in ordinary convesation, even just to say to a friend that God is a way maker and a healer and I thank him for what he has done for me. To adopt the past tense as in the "positive confession," He is already a healer. I think we can all agree on this, though I understand that there are "positive confessions" that spawn disagreement. I wonder how much more healing there might be if we just attended to the obvious. Mere praise also makes room for submission and sovereignty that is at issue.That doesn't answer my question about Paul :): Do you feel Paul's faith was lacking and that was why God didn't remove the thorn?

[busterdog]

They have a lot of great teaching but intermixed is heresy. You can't deny some of the strange things they have taught. :sigh

Strange indeed and worthy of correction.

[busterdog]

That doesn't answer my question about Paul :): Do you feel Paul's faith was lacking and that was why God didn't remove the thorn?

If Paul had the faith of Jesus Himself, the thorn would have been removed. Thus, I don't think this passage is about what that "substance of things hoped for" can do. But, I will bite. Yes it appears lacking. THis passage is about our lesser faith that accepts sufficiency in weakness. Now the question is sufficient for what? I say sufficient for victory, of which there are many kinds and degrees.

"Many are the trials of the righteous, but the Lord carries them through every one."

[Becky]

:doh :tsk

[carmen]

If Paul had the faith of Jesus Himself, the thorn would have been removed. So it is Christ and Him only that suffers in spite of having perfect faith? We are somehow better than He and need not suffer, as long as OUR faith is perfect? We can somehow, someway, be more blessed by God and so escape what the Author and Finisher of our faith did not?

What arrogance to think we might live better than He.

[carmen]

But, I will bite. And BTW, I wasn't baiting you. I was simply astonished and couldn't believe a Christian would possibly be sitting in judgement on Paul, and deciding that somehow the man that God used to write so very much of NT was lacking in faith. I truly did not believe that that was what was happening, and so I asked to clarify it.

[countmeworthy]

:wave I don't have a lot of time at the moment to continue adding to the discussion. I got things to do, places to go and people to see. :D:

However, I just want to say this:

1) There needs to be a balance in everything we think and do. Look, if a person proclaims they are healed and or delivered from smoking but continue to smoke... well that's just plain :crazy loco en la cabesa.

2) We need to seek the Lord's wisdom and counsel for our lives and decisions. God certainly uses the medical profession to 'heal' us !! But there are other times when He wants us to use our faith. Every person & situation is different.

3) We really need to read & study the Word of God for ourselves and fellowship one with another that we may gain wisdom, understanding, strength and discernment.

Too many people rely ONLY on the preacher on the pulpit to feed and minister to them. That's how people get complacent & get in trouble.

Carmen, I'm so sorry you lost your mother at such a young tender age. I lost both my parents when I was 21 but at least I was a little older & saved & my faith helped my cope. I'm so glad you were blessed by your mother's preparation.

Illness, tragedies and death happen. We all need preparedness to deal with it. Thank GOD, we have HIM !!!

Ok... later and I too AM HUNGRY !! :nod even though I AM A daughter of the Most High God. :thumb

[savedandhappy1]

There is a line between complaining continually, and saying you're healed when you're plainly not. The two aren't even really the same thing. You can acknowledge that your body isn't healthy, but not be complaining. And you can say that you are walking on in the joy of the Lord, and the promise of your new body someday, without saying you are healed NOW :):

I can't help but think about the witness my mother gave me as I grew up while she suffered with terminal cancer. She was afflicted with it before I was born, and she went home when I was about 12. Her eventual death was accepted and spoken about in our home; we all knew it was coming, and she prepared me for that. Had she continually been telling me she was healed, and then just died, I believe my faith would have been shattered. Instead, she gave a witness of how to persevere IN SPITE OF her suffering. She didn't walk around moaning about her condition or her shortened life span. Instead, she saved pain medication for the days when we could go out together and "make memories," as she called it. I am more grateful than I can express that she didn't deceive me or attempt to prevaricate about her condition. My hope is built on nothing less, than Jesus Christ and His righteousness. But my mother gave me the REALITY of what it's like to follow Him in spite of illness and in the face of death. I treasure that example and, should I ever be in that position, now know how to live and walk through it because of what she did and the way she did it. It is a gift beyond measure.

I also treasure the way Christ walked through His suffering, and Paul as well. They didn't deny their weakness in the face of pain and suffering. They acknowledged it and walked on in God's will anyway. I just don't see them professing what isn't present in reality.

I am not trying to be ugly or divisive here, Count. But I am saying that professing something to be reality, when it is plainly not, is not bibilical or scriptural. Please forgive me if I seem harsh or ugly, because I don't wan to sound that way :(:. I know of no other way to speak than bluntly :hug. But there are too many people out there that have been hurt by this movement; too many sick people that aren't well and think it is because their faith is lacking; too many people who have had family members die and turned away from God because they professed they were well, but God took them anyway. WOF damages people. I would humbly and sincerely ask, can you show me the scripture where he went around doing this?


carmen,

Thank you for sharing the story about your mother. It was beautiful!!!!!!

I few years back I went through some illnesses that almost killed me. I had to go to the hospital way to many times. A doctor in the ER, who had seen me to much came into the room as I was telling a joke. I had just thrown another clot and it was in my neck. He told me he just couldn't understand how with all I had been through I could be laying there telling jokes and laughing. I told him I had tried that crying thing and it just made my eyes hurt and look bad.

People think that we should moun and groan if we have problems, and I refuse to. If the Lord totally heals me while I am on this earth, fine, and Praise His name, but if my healing comes after I leave this earth, Praise His name. His will may not be ours and his plan maybe not be ours, but He knows all things. I know He knows what is best. Do I believe He could totally heal me now, you bet I do. I also know that if I walk in Him my illnesses could be a blessing to someone if I present myself the way He wants. So daily I try to let Him shine through me so the whole world can see Him, not me.

My sister is always worrying about things that haven't happened and so many times don't. Yes, I tell her she needs to quit speaking things that aren't, because I believe the devil uses those things which we worry about against us. Why give him fuel for the fire? I just tell her to give her worrys to the Lord, leave them at His feet, He can take care of it and give the peace she needs.

[MNGirl]

We are little gods. Jesus did not complete his work on the cross. Sick people should be condemned for not having enough faith. We are all supposed to be millionaires.

I go to a Word church and have NEVER heard these appalling heresies preached.

[Joel]

So perhaps the only thing we disagree on is how important it is to clarify whether one is saying that one is CURRENTLY healed or made perfect (other than spiritually, with the qualifier that that is our standing before God and not that we are perfectly sinless in the here and now), or whether one should just say "I am healed" and let it go at that. To me, the latter is presents an unscriptural and deceptive picture of the way God works, and our reality in a fallen world.
No, no... not at all.

I [personally] think we agree more than appears, but perhaps I'm not expressing myself as clear as I wish to. :):

I actually thought a little bit about this over lunch...

As said above...

[and I stand by what I've said so far]

Affirming the reality [which is something we should never deny] is saying you are not whole, and yet also affirming God's truths/promises would neccessiate a qualifier, IMHO.
I see what you are saying as well, and can agree definitely. Maybe I didn't say it out loud, but inserting a qualifier is definitely preferred speech.
Promises/truths neccessitate qualifiers because it's not shown in the present time-space, right?

For example, [and I agree] you can't say 'I'm perfect', without the qualifier 'In God's standing through Christ Jesus, I am made [or seen as] perfect'.

So likewise it is with the issue of health, for example.. [assuming there is a promise of it - which is another can of worms]

You can't say 'I'm healthy', without the qualifier [otherwise it appears confusing to those who plainly see you are not, and can be confusing to those of the world]. But with the neccessary qualifier, it is, 'By His stripes I am made whole', or, 'will be made whole'.

'By faith in God's power, He has made/will make me whole', 'through His stripes'. etc

Yes?

[And please know, I don't view lack of healing as lack of faith, nor lack of prosperity as lack of faith or blessing. I believe those are damnable lies myself. Don't mistake my questions as an inadvertent 'defense'... I just think some issues could stand some clearing up when these other issues are brought up, to bring things into a balance]

Please don't mistake what I'm arguing here... I understand completely how it could be deceptive without the qualifiers, as mentioned in the above quotes. :):

I understand the importance of clarification, so as to not tarnish witness...

I think [I may be wrong] you were thinking more along the lines of 'witness', and how others interpret/view these things. [And that's fine]

Whereas I was thinking, at first, more along the lines of personal attitude, and knowing what is truth [God's truth] in your own spirit.

Make sense? :twitch

[busterdog]

And BTW, I wasn't baiting you. I was simply astonished and couldn't believe a Christian would possibly be sitting in judgement on Paul, and deciding that somehow the man that God used to write so very much of NT was lacking in faith. I truly did not believe that that was what was happening, and so I asked to clarify it.

Did I sit in judgment?

Are we to even judge the man in a positive light? Scripture doesn't make that distinction, so I think your shock is misplaced. And again, the passage does not say he prayed in perfect or even great faith. It doesn't say he had lousy faith either, but was in weakness. The fact that he is a saint is of no significance. So was Peter, e.g.

[carmen]

Did I sit in judgment? Did you decide that Paul was lacking in faith? Yes, you certainly did just sit in judgment on his faith.

[busterdog]

So it is Christ and Him only that suffers in spite of having perfect faith? We are somehow better than He and need not suffer, as long as OUR faith is perfect? We can somehow, someway, be more blessed by God and so escape what the Author and Finisher of our faith did not?

What arrogance to think we might live better than He.

I'll bite there too. We boast in Christ. (Half kidding.) But, I can't respond to all in your post. Your assumptions go way too far.

[carmen]

Are we to even judge the man in a positive light? He is my brother in Christ, and one that achieved so very much for Christ, and for us. God has blessed an untold number of people through His work through my brother Paul, including allowing him to write much of the NT. His life, writing, courage, faith, love, and concern are a shining example to me today and to countless millions before, beside, and that will be after me (if the Lord tarries. YES, I judge the man in a positive light, and on much more evidence than so many judge Benny Hinn and his ilk in a positive light.

The fact that he is a saint is of no significance. So was Peter, e.g.So are well all, according to scripture. Sainthood isn't the point. The point is that you are in no position to decide who is lacking in faith and who is not. Outward appearances will not tell you that, as Christ makes evident when He tells us about those that perished when the tower fell, and why the blind man was born that way. The Pharasees appeared to be the most full-of-faith people in existance in Jesus' day, but His harshest words were reserved for them.

Conversely, those that we look at and might condemn as lacking in faith based on their appearance--the sick, the sinners, the poor--are the ones that Christ most commended.

Only God knows the heart and the faith of anyone, nor the reason why He allows money for some and withholds it from another; or why He allows sickness to some and health for another; or why He allows one to have fame, but denies to another. It is not ours to decide, and it is not ours to attempt to manipulate Him into getting any of those things by some form of man-made, scripture-twisting doctrine.

[carmen]

I'll bite there too. We boast in Christ. We boast in Christ, but not in our faith. And you needn't feel like you have to answer my posts :):

[Joel]

Make sense? :twitch

No sense?

Some sense?

A few sense?

A nickel, a dime?

:lol

[carmen]

:doh Sorry Joel :lolYou can't say 'I'm healthy', without the qualifier [otherwise it appears confusing to those who plainly see you are not, and can be confusing to those of the world]. I would say it is also confusing to those in the Body.

I think [I may be wrong] you were thinking more along the lines of 'witness', and how others interpret/view these things. [And that's fine]

Whereas I was thinking, at first, more along the lines of personal attitude, and knowing what is truth [God's truth] in your own spirit.I agree with you, Joel.

However, WOF takes it far further than what you have here, and means something different. This is the step off into WOF, and I think it's dangerous because of that.

Let our yes be yes, and our no be no. Add in the qualifiers, if that is what is meant. Why leave in confusion something that can lead to false and twisted doctrine for want of a few extra words? That is my concern and it is why I don't let it just lie.

Hopefully THAT makes sense :lol

[Joel]

I think we're finally making sense around here.

:heh

[MNGirl]

Maybe this will help...

If someone has been diagnosed with cancer, that is a medical fact. You can't pretend its not so.

However, God's word is greater than medical fact and that is what I stand on, no matter what symptoms I may see.

Everyone is not instantly healed. Some have to diligently seek God, some never see the physical healing at all. I believe it is God's will for all of us to be in divine health and that is how I try to pray. It is NEVER acceptable to rebuke or crush someone with the accusation that their faith is not good enough. I don't understand everything and if the book of Job is any indication, I'm not alone.

[carmen]

I believe it is God's will for all of us to be in divine health If this is the case, what is it that's standing in the way of His will being accomplished?

[Becky]

“Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them. There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one,” Acts 5:15-16.
May I compare this to modern faith healing? Modern faith healers never heal all the people who come to them. Have you ever noticed that? The apostles had sign gifts, friend. No one in the church since then has had those gifts. People were healed, every one of them. They emptied the hospitals. This was the power of the early church.
We must remember that at that time there was no written New Testament. The church is built on Jesus Christ—He is the Cornerstone—and the apostles were witnesses to Christ. The sign gifts were given to them to demonstrate the fact that they spoke with God’s authority. Today we have a written New Testament as our authority.
(Dr. J Vernon McGee, Commentary on Acts 5:15-16)

vs.

But, if healing is part of the atonement, why do Christians get sick? Lack of faith, as Benny Hinn explains:
"The Bible declares that the work was done 2,000 years ago. God is not going to heal you now -- he healed you 2,000 years ago. All you have to do today is receive your healing by faith" (Rise and Be Healed, p. 44). :tsk

[70thWeek]

As I wrote before in this thread, many WOFs made a mountain out of a molehill. I agree with them that the Lord still performs miracles. I believe that you can pray for a miracle. I believe that God can answer. I part with them on any sort of formula wherein a+b=miracle.

I think that some arguments against WOF teachers are silly. Like the "Why does Oral Roberts still wear glasses" question (not attacking the poster, questioning the argument). As I wrote earlier, Oral knows that there are times that God does not answer prayers. Oral is not against doctors. He founded a first-rate hospital.

I have severe disagreements with some of the Christological claims of some WOFs. For instance, the redemption in hell doctrine. Furthermore, the little gods idea is heretical. However, we need to remember that not every WOF teacher teaches these things. I haven't heard Oral Roberts teach these doctrines. Also, let's remember that heresy is not limited to WOF.

I am not attacking anyone in particular here, but hope that I am creating the opportunity for discussion.

I have major problems with

[Becky]

Deception in the Church
THE WORD FAITH MOVEMENT



What happens to the victims - those who lose "Faith in Faith"?


In counselling those who have been caught up in the Word-Faith doctrines and then have been disillusioned, one finds many who have difficulty breaking free of these teachings. A consistent pattern of behaviour can be observed in these people. First, as with all cultic teachings, no one has ever come up with this teaching through Bible study alone. People generally find it through the influence of Word-Faith churches and the literature, tapes and seminars which originally promulgated from the USA. At this level, strong indoctrination takes place. It is through the literature and seminars that people become "positive confessors." At this point, no negatives are allowed. God wants you healthy, wealthy, and wise. Sickness, poverty, and want are signs of spiritual weakness. If something does not go right, lack of faith is at fault. There are unfortunates, deceived by this heresy, who are still awaiting the replacement of an artificial leg or eye "when they have enough faith." Unfortunately the Word-Faith teachers never mention the casualties of their deception which are often picked up by orthodox Christian counsellors.
http://www.thechristianexpositor.org/page7.html

[Becky]

We need discernment. http://www.mbcb.org/resource_services/br/peters.aspx

Hinn knows that not everyone is healed. In fact, his ministry is notoriously silent when asked for documented proofs of healings.
Therefore he has adopted the standard Word of Faith (WOF) excuses that the chronically ill believer must not have enough faith, sin is
present in his life, he has not given enough money (have you ever heard a preacher ask you to “sow a seed” so you can “reap a
harvest?”), or he is not even saved.



This is not an exaggeration. At a 2001 Miracle Crusade in Nevada, Hinn told the audience, “Healing should never be separate
from salvation.” (emphasis mine.) The cruelty of this is hard to imagine. Now the sick person has to struggle not only with his malady,
but also his own perceived spiritual deficiencies. Through no fault of his own he is cast into the deep valley of doubting his very salvation.



At his Miracle Crusades, Hinn “slays” people in the Spirit (though this practice is completely without
biblical precedent) as if he is some anointed dispenser of the third Person of the Trinity, and he claims that
thousands are healed. Are the people that claim to be healed really healed? The vast majority are not.



Most of what is seen on the stage of a Hinn crusade is resultant of very high states of emotion. In a closed environment with dimmed
lights, rhythmic music, and a highly charismatic leader dressed in gleaming white on stage, the energy is almost palpable. With
adrenaline rushing, some begin to convince themselves that they feel better and, for a while, they do.



However, when the show is over and a new day dawns, the symptoms almost always reappear.



Notice that those who get on stage suffer from something that cannot be readily seen. If God is truly healing the
sick through Benny Hinn, where are the Down’s Syndrome children, the quadriplegics, the amputees?



I myself have a moderate case of Cerebral Palsy. As a teenager I went to see a faith healer and fully expected to
walk away whole. I did not. That incident began my interest in the WOF movement and all these so-called faith healers
and led me to recently write my Master’s thesis on Benny Hinn and his theology.



This series of articles is not intended as a personal attack but rather a call for discernment. Recall the words of
Jesus: “For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders.” (Matt. 24:24).

[70thWeek]

We need discernment. http://www.mbcb.org/resource_services/br/peters.aspx


At his Miracle Crusades, Hinn “slays” people in the Spirit (though this practice is completely without
biblical precedent) as if he is some anointed dispenser of the third Person of the Trinity, and he claims that
thousands are healed. Are the people that claim to be healed really healed? The vast majority are not.



I have mixed feelings on the slain in the spirit question. It's happened to me, and no one pushed me, I didn't fall down of my own accord, and I couldn't get it up.

While the phenonenam might not be mentioned exactly in the Bible, we do have accounts of what happens to people when they come into the presence of God. Maybe there is some indirect support in the Bible. Nevertheless though, many things that we take for granted are not mentioned in the Bible. So...

On the other hand, I have seen examples of people obviously faking being slain in the Spirit. Point being, experience is not the greatest proof in the world, but it is nearly impossible to disprove as well. I haven't been slain in the Spirit in many years, and have come to view it as something that should never be expected or the focus, while at the same time, not ruling out the possibility that God can do some pretty amazing things.

[Becky]

70th, what gets me about being slain in the spirit is that you are required to fall backward. Everyone who thought they were in the presense of God fell forward.

But this is another argument. :):

[70thWeek]

70th, what gets me about being slain in the spirit is that you are required to fall backward. Everyone who thought they were in the presense of God fell forward.

But this is another argument. :):

I've seen it happen many different ways.

As I said, I have mixed feelings about it. I never go looking for it. I think that a lot of what you might see on tv is fake, but then again, I know what happened to me once...

[Becky]

No problem. :thumb :hug

[Teresa]

People who believe in WOF are just like those that play the lottery or slot machines. They just want to get lucky.


I didn't read this whole thread because I have already spent way too much time in the past with WOF and I know it very well. I just want to say that not everyone who is in WOF are out to get lucky. You bet I sowed my seed for my need. I wanted my husband saved more then anything. I prayed for it, gave for it and am still waiting for it.

I want to thank RR and the members here that are strong in the Word of God for continuing to cry out against this heresy. I was heavily involved in it and my ignorance and it was an RR member that first helped me on my own quest to find out the truth about WOF. And that is why RR will always have a special place in my heart. :):

[savedandhappy1]

I didn't read this whole thread because I have already spent way too much time in the past with WOF and I know it very well. I just want to say that not everyone who is in WOF are out to get lucky. You bet I sowed my seed for my need. I wanted my husband saved more then anything. I prayed for it, gave for it and am still waiting for it.

I want to thank RR and the members here that are strong in the Word of God for continuing to cry out against this heresy. I was heavily involved in it and my ignorance and it was an RR member that first helped me on my own quest to find out the truth about WOF. And that is why RR will always have a special place in my heart. :):


2 Cor 9:6-7
6But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
7Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver

[blitzkreig]

There has been a whole pattern of "snake oil salesmen" who have preyed upon the gullible, the old, the earnest and the faithful ... and the poor.

Many many of these concentrate themselves in the southern part of the USA.

They are everywhere in the world so don't get my statement wrong.

But they seem to swarm the poor folks in the south.

Why?

[busterdog]

I have mixed feelings on the slain in the spirit question. It's happened to me, and no one pushed me, I didn't fall down of my own accord, and I couldn't get it up.

Intresting. Thanks. I was praying with some Pentacostals with a travelling preacher. THey were dropping, but while I really like praying with the lady and loved the message, I think she may have bruised me trying to slay me. It is sort of like "hearing from God", sometimes you don't know what to make of other people.

However, I heard this really funny story from a guy who was teaching on the "healing rooms" thing. This guy was being prayed over and the guy doing the praying had this really bad breath. So, what should you do? The answer is obvious. You get slain in the spirit. But, unfortunately this particular thorn was not removed, but got down on all fours to pray over this guy who thought he had escaped.

[70thWeek]

Intresting. Thanks. I was praying with some Pentacostals with a travelling preacher. THey were dropping, but while I really like praying with the lady and loved the message, I think she may have bruised me trying to slay me. It is sort of like "hearing from God", sometimes you don't know what to make of other people.

However, I heard this really funny story from some people who were involved in the "healing rooms" thing. This guy was being prayed over and the guy doing the praying had this really bad breath. So, whay would you do? The answer is obvious. You get slain in the spirit. But, unfortunately this particular thorn was not removed, but got down on all fours to pray over this guy.

There is a famous signs and wonder preacher, I won't name his name, but he is near the top of the list,who tried to get me to fall. I didn't go down. Most everyone else did. He tried and tried, but I didn't fall.

I have witnessed people push, but I have also seen times when no one even touched a person and they went down. I don't try to explain it.

[busterdog]

I was simpl