Book review says born-again Christians "less likable"

[Indiana Janz]

We'll take manhattans

By JESSICA WARNER

Christmas is fast approaching, and with it, the dilemma of what to give the less likable people in our lives: office mates, ex-spouses, born-again Christians.

more... (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20051203/BKMOND03/TPEntertainment/Books)

[LDinthewoods]

This is a technique fraught with obvious risks, not the least of which is the assumption that anything that pops into one's head is interesting and should be written down for others' benefit. Couldn't have said it better myself.....

[mikitta]

JESSICA WARNER is now on my prayer list for salvation. May the Holy Spirit harry and hound her till she is run to ground and faces Christ in His Glory and what He means to her eternal destination.

God Bless,
mik

[buzzardhut]

:lol

[Stephanie]

Hmmm.

Well, I have a couple of reactions. The first one is that I'm surprised the writer felt comfortable actually *writing* something so rude, particularly when it's so politically incorrect to make slamming remarks about religious groups (you know - we're all supposed to act like every religion is wonderful, and be super-acceptiing and so forth <g> - so if she dislikes born-again Christians, she's sort of being *judgmental* like the very people she dislikes <g> - so that was a bit of a goof, I think.)

My second reaction is probably one that will earn me few RR brownie points... and that is that as rude as her comment was, unfortunately, I get it. I've met some born-again Christians who are, frankly, obnoxious. That's not to say that *our faith* is obnoxious, or that the Gospel shouldn't be taught or whatever... because there's a big difference between the faith and the people within it. Some people just seem to have an obnoxious attitude that, when mixed with the desire to spread the Gospel, turns into just a cruddy and very unattractive attitude.

I guess what I mean to say is that if people are actually speaking about born-again Christians in such a way to indicate that it's a *commonly held belief* that born again Christians are unlikable, then that's probably an indicator that as a whole, we need to work on our approach so that people see the light of Christ in our attitudes, and not the very human attitudes that are so easily displayed.

That said, it's also true that some people are going to dislike Christians **regardless** of how friendly and pleasant we are, and no matter how well we do interpersonally. Some people just don't like Christianity, so they fixate on the Christians. The problem, I think, is when an obnoxious person uses "witnessing" as an excuse to be obnoxious, and when people react negatively, the believer then refuses to see their effect on people - and they just chalk it up to "another sinner" who "doesn't want to know the truth." Almost like some people can't get it in their heads that their attitude might be the issue.

-Stephanie

[neuron]

snip

Very well put!

[Mike_VDS]

Somehow I have this feeling Jesus was a lot more fun to be around than some "born again" believers. At least I hope so.

[Becky]

Very well put!:confused Care to explain this remark?

[Becky]

Somehow I have this feeling Jesus was a lot more fun to be around than some "born again" believers. At least I hope so.:sad

I think a lot of Christians don't know how to act like Christians so they become "holier than thou" and turn a lot of people off to Christianity by their actions. A lot of them do not have any mercy.

[Mike_VDS]

:sad

I think a lot of Christians don't know how to act like Christians so they become "holier than thou" and turn a lot of people off to Christianity by their actions. A lot of them do not have any mercy.

Maybe the problem is too many "acting lessons". :D:

[ellie]

This is just from my own personal experience, but without fail anytime that I have witnessed to anyone about Jesus Christ they have only listened to me when I have been 'Christ-like' to them. When I have approached them in love and not judgment inevitably they want to know the Lord Jesus that I am portraying in my own life. We who are called by His name have a responsibility to re-present Jesus to them. Be like Him and you will win converts I guarantee it. It has never failed in our lives (my husband and myself).:D:

[Stephanie]

Somehow I have this feeling Jesus was a lot more fun to be around than some "born again" believers. At least I hope so.

I bet you're right!

[Stephanie]

Very well put!

Thank you - I'm glad you liked it (and I'm glad nobody has wanted to bonk me on the head for saying it so far... errrrr, well, if they *do* want to bonk me, I haven't *noticed* it yet, anyway).

[Hoping4TheCall]

some of my co-workers think I'm not as likeable because I don't want to go out to bars on friday or saturday or go get a beer after work..
Sorry, going out spending my hard earned money on beer and strip clubs just doesn't appeal to me..
Oh well..

[Cat03]

Wow. I read a comment (very rude comment) against christians then I read a bunch more comments in this thread saying how it was justified. :confused I realize that some christians are obnoxious just as some people overall are obnoxious but why are we bashing ourselves. There are many positive role models of christianity. I have many christian friends who try harder to be kind because of their love for Christ. Lets give each other a break:):

[CJL]

As I read the article and some info on the author, the thought that kept coming into my head was "salt of the earth." Christians are to be different. If we conform to the world, who really is our master? I'm glad that she thinks Christians are less likeable. The question is less likeable about what? Is it because Christians frown on a sinful lifestyles? Is it because Christians don't conform to this world's ideas of self-godlyness or emphasis on our own physical and mental pleasures? If that is the case, then she is definitely talking about me. I still deal with sinful issues everyday but I know that I have a Saviour that is always there. I am to be not of this world. And I will try to never be.

YBIC,
CJL

[coffeehubby]

I did agree with her opinion of the value of Garrison Kielovers books. I understand her article is written as irony so I wasn't offended because I'd probably just send the writer a membership to the Potatoe of the month club.

[4GivnSinR]

Hmmm.

Well, I have a couple of reactions. The first one is that I'm surprised the writer felt comfortable actually *writing* something so rude, particularly when it's so politically incorrect to make slamming remarks about religious groups (you know - we're all supposed to act like every religion is wonderful, and be super-acceptiing and so forth <g> - so if she dislikes born-again Christians, she's sort of being *judgmental* like the very people she dislikes <g> - so that was a bit of a goof, I think.)

My second reaction is probably one that will earn me few RR brownie points... and that is that as rude as her comment was, unfortunately, I get it. I've met some born-again Christians who are, frankly, obnoxious. That's not to say that *our faith* is obnoxious, or that the Gospel shouldn't be taught or whatever... because there's a big difference between the faith and the people within it. Some people just seem to have an obnoxious attitude that, when mixed with the desire to spread the Gospel, turns into just a cruddy and very unattractive attitude.

I guess what I mean to say is that if people are actually speaking about born-again Christians in such a way to indicate that it's a *commonly held belief* that born again Christians are unlikable, then that's probably an indicator that as a whole, we need to work on our approach so that people see the light of Christ in our attitudes, and not the very human attitudes that are so easily displayed.

That said, it's also true that some people are going to dislike Christians **regardless** of how friendly and pleasant we are, and no matter how well we do interpersonally. Some people just don't like Christianity, so they fixate on the Christians. The problem, I think, is when an obnoxious person uses "witnessing" as an excuse to be obnoxious, and when people react negatively, the believer then refuses to see their effect on people - and they just chalk it up to "another sinner" who "doesn't want to know the truth." Almost like some people can't get it in their heads that their attitude might be the issue.

-Stephanie

Agreed!

[4GivnSinR]

Somehow I have this feeling Jesus was a lot more fun to be around than some "born again" believers. At least I hope so.

:thumb

[Jiggy37]

It could be sarcasm. :noidea
Besides, as people are hinting at, a person would have to know what her definition of a "born-again Christian" is before they could criticize her for it. I remember when I thought "evangelist" meant "those people on TV who try to get you to donate money," for example. :noidea

[UNeverEverNo]

Caution: This book is recommended for ironic readers only. Some people might be shocked to read that the best cure for a hangover is a "Bloody Mary with two shots of vodka," that people who have neither the time nor money to drink Grand Marnier in the morning are to be pitied, that the abolition of drive-through bars is a minor tragedy bespeaking a lack of political will on the part of lushes. There is, of course, an element of épater le bourgeois in all this -- reason enough to give the book to the born-again Christians in your life.

Jessica Warner is a research scientist at the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health.
As in the days of Noah.

[BHiles]

They don't hate me . . .

They hate my Saviour.

[Harley]

:sad

I think a lot of Christians don't know how to act like Christians so they become "holier than thou" and turn a lot of people off to Christianity by their actions. A lot of them do not have any mercy.
or we simply become known for what we oppose...

[Waiting4theKing]

Jesus likes me... that all that matters :):

[kristine]

Wow. I read a comment (very rude comment) against christians then I read a bunch more comments in this thread saying how it was justified. :confused I realize that some christians are obnoxious just as some people overall are obnoxious but why are we bashing ourselves. There are many positive role models of christianity. I have many christian friends who try harder to be kind because of their love for Christ. Lets give each other a break:):


I have to agree with what Stephanie said. She wasn't meaning to be "rude." We as Christians DO HAVE TO WATCH how we wittness to others or how we come across. Becky was right when she said that some come across as "holier than thou." Rather than seeing this as a rude comment toward Christians, see it as a valuable lesson to all of us. We need to be considerate of other's feelings and proceed with caution.

One way that has opened doors for me is to simply be nice and a part of people's lives. They know I'm a Christian but I usually don't say anything. when the opportunity comes up, I talk gently about God (when they are in need of comforting). After awhile, they become more curious and ask questions.

Some Christians, in their enthusiasm, pounce on others and try to shove it down their throats. That rarely works. People are just turned off!

I do agree with one post that mentioned how people will hate you just because you're Christian. True. People roll their eyes when you choose not to participate in an activity that is questionable. This has certainly happened to me.

The method that works best for me is to be an example by the way I live. There are other methods that have worked well for Christians that are different than mine and that's great.

Anyway, Stephanie's comment was not intended to be rude or a bash against fellow Christians.

[LDinthewoods]

Wow. I read a comment (very rude comment) against christians then I read a bunch more comments in this thread saying how it was justified. :confused I realize that some christians are obnoxious just as some people overall are obnoxious but why are we bashing ourselves. There are many positive role models of christianity. I have many christian friends who try harder to be kind because of their love for Christ. Lets give each other a break:): I agree....I'm not sure how a brief comment in a book review putting Christians in a group of the "less like-able" becomes a jumping off point for other Christians to list faults of other brothers & sisters in Christ.

The book reviewer was making a joke....kind of an inside joke for non-believers. Certainly didn't seem out of place for a book called Mondo Cocktail. Why is everyone choosing this brief phrase to highlight their own frustrations with other Christians....and thus validating what this writer is saying when she compares Christians to co-workers & ex-spouses?

[LDinthewoods]

I have to agree with what Stephanie said. She wasn't meaning to be "rude." We as Christians DO HAVE TO WATCH how we wittness to others or how we come across. Becky was right when she said that some come across as "holier than thou." Rather than seeing this as a rude comment toward Christians, see it as a valuable lesson to all of us. We need to be considerate of other's feelings and proceed with caution. I agree with the sentiment, but I don't see this as a valuable lesson....the fact that a writer in a book review made an eye-rolly type comment about Christians....this is not any kind of huge insight that I didn't already have. Jesus said we would be hated because of His name. The fact that this writer brushes Christians off as simply "less like-able" would tend to indicate that we as Christians have not yet become the reviled righteous people that Jesus said we would be.

I don't beat people over the head with my Bible, but I also don't seek the approval of men. To do so is folly. I do take heed to the scriptures that tell me how I should act & treat non-believers and then allow the LORD to do the rest. If they reject Christ, they will reject me.....if they accept Christ, they will accept me. It has nothing to do with like-ability.

[kristine]

I agree with the sentiment, but I don't see this as a valuable lesson....the fact that a writer in a book review made an eye-rolly type comment about Christians....this is not any kind of huge insight that I didn't already have. Jesus said we would be hated because of His name. The fact that this writer brushes Christians off as simply "less like-able" would tend to indicate that we as Christians have not yet become the reviled righteous people that Jesus said we would be.

I don't beat people over the head with my Bible, but I also don't seek the approval of men. To do so is folly. I do take heed to the scriptures that tell me how I should act & treat non-believers and then allow the LORD to do the rest. If they reject Christ, they will reject me.....if they accept Christ, they will accept me. It has nothing to do with like-ability.

I'm sure you don't "beat people over the head with your Bible." Laugh There are those who do. I don't disagree with what you're saying and, I might add, I'm not trying to "seek approval of men." I simply believe there are ways and there are not ways we should approach people in our witness.

What we're trying to say is ---- "Let's bring people to Christ; not chase them away with obnoxious behavior." That is, afterall, our duty --- to BRING people to Christ. The way to bring people to Christ is with LOVE, RESPECT and an UNDERSTANDING as to where they are in their life. My mother's favorite saying has always been:

"You catch more flies with honey." Laugh

When I wrote my first post, I did not see that the book was just a kidding around sort of thing (oops.:doh I should read things more thoroughly). My statements still stand, though. Behind every joke is a bit of truth.

This really isn't about fellow Christians bashing other Christians. It's just a reminder for us all to LISTEN more closely to the HOLY SPIRIT'S direction when we act or witness to others. Nothing more. No Christian bashing, here. We love our fellow Christians. What would we be if we didn't have each other to support in our Christian walk?

Let's not take these statements that have been made as a PERSONAL AFFRONT, RR friends. We ARE friends. :wave

I HAVE MADE MISTAKES IN MY CHRISTIAN WITNESSING AS I'M SURE OTHERS, ON THIS BOARD HAVE.

[Hootmon]

Book review says born-again Christians "less likable" http://www.terranuts.com/forums/images/smilies/bootyshake.gif

[kristine]

http://www.terranuts.com/forums/images/smilies/bootyshake.gif


:spit :pound

[Dilferthecat]

:sad

I think a lot of Christians don't know how to act like Christians so they become "holier than thou" and turn a lot of people off to Christianity by their actions. A lot of them do not have any mercy.

True! Also, a lot of people I've seen in my life have no joy of the Lord in them. Love and joy go hand in hand, and if you truly have the love of God in you then it's gonna show in the way you treat people. Everyone is different and everyone exhibits joy and love in different ways. But no matter your temperament, I believe the joy of the Lord and the love of Christ will show through in kindness and humility.

Just my puny one cent. :D:

[Stephanie]

You've really doing a good job of helping to explain, Kristine - thank you!

I don't quite know why this is seeming like I'm "slamming" Christians. I'm not saying anything that doesn't apply to myself as well - I mean, this *matters.* Likability IS an issue, clearly, among those in the secular world - obviously, otherwise such articles wouldn't exist. And yet we (meaning "we" in the general sense of the church as a whole) wonder why comedians joke about us and secular people view us as extreme, unkind, and out of touch with the way our attitudes and words come across.



LDinthewoods wrote,
"This is not any kind of huge insight that I didn't already have. Jesus said we would be hated because of His name. The fact that this writer brushes Christians off as simply "less like-able" would tend to indicate that we as Christians have not yet become the reviled righteous people that Jesus said we would be.
I don't beat people over the head with my Bible, but I also don't seek the approval of men. To do so is folly. I do take heed to the scriptures that tell me how I should act & treat non-believers and then allow the LORD to do the rest. If they reject Christ, they will reject me.....if they accept Christ, they will accept me. It has nothing to do with like-ability.
I'm not sure how a brief comment in a book review putting Christians in a group of the "less like-able" becomes a jumping off point for other Christians to list faults of other brothers & sisters in Christ....
.... Why is everyone choosing this brief phrase to highlight their own frustrations with other Christians....and thus validating what this writer is saying when she compares Christians to co-workers & ex-spouses?"


Cat03 wrote,
""Wow. I read a comment (very rude comment) against christians then I read a bunch more comments in this thread saying how it was justified. I realize that some christians are obnoxious just as some people overall are obnoxious but why are we bashing ourselves. There are many positive role models of christianity. I have many christian friends who try harder to be kind because of their love for Christ.
Lets give each other a break."





Being hated because of the name of Jesus is *much* different than being hated because of having a particular attitude or approach that is nasty (or unkind, or whatever) when witnessing or sharing the faith with people.
It's not about behaving nicely "to seek the approval of men" - that doesn't make sense in context.

When people say things like that, it always sounds to me as if they're saying, "Well, a Christian shouldn't seek the approval of man, so if Joe Blow is condescending and hard-hearted toward people, then so be it; the Bible always warned that we'd be hated by the world." (No - I'm not paraphrasing anything you said there, LD - I'm speaking very generally here.)

I mean, we can be kind, we can treat people with respect for what they think and feel, and lead them to Christ without being unlikable in the process.
By the way, I'm not highlighting my frustrations with other Christians...
really, I'm just saying that I get what the writer was saying because I think that the Christian community, as a whole, has a real epidemic of that sort of thing... and I think we should just acknowledge it and stop pretending that the church is 100 percent sweetness-and-light when it comes to dealing with those outside the church, teaching potential new Christians/seekers, expressing our faith and beliefs to those uneducated about it, etc.

I'm not "bashing" Christians - and my viewpoint is that it's wrong to just give Christians "a break" and just be satisfied with the fact that many people *aren't* jerky. I don't think that it's edifying to the church, and I don't think it's educating those who are searching for God (knowingly or unknowingly) for us to stick our heads in the sand.


I don't think that the church has been very good at communicating with nonbelievers;
We know the points we want to make and we know the scriptures to cite, but not all people are very good at the way they approach certain subjects or how they treat people - and I think that affects the result. Nobody's perfect obviously - but some people have a harder time than others. If they don't **care** how they're perceived, then they're not going to be received well.


Just to be sure you're seeing what I'm saying (because so far, it looks like you think I'm slamming Christians and that I'm somehow advocating trying to please man instead of God... I want to refer back to what I originally said for a minute (with an emphasis in some areas) ...




Well, I have a couple of reactions. The first one is that
I'm surprised the writer felt comfortable actually *writing* something so rude,
particularly when it's so politically incorrect to make slamming remarks about religious groups
(you know - we're all supposed to act like every religion is wonderful,
and be super-acceptiing and so forth <g> - so if she dislikes born-again Christians,
she's sort of being *judgmental* like the very people she dislikes <g> - so that was a bit of a goof, I think.)



I've met some born-again Christians who are, frankly, obnoxious.

That's not to say that *our faith* is obnoxious,
or that the Gospel shouldn't be taught or whatever...
because there's a big difference between the faith and the people within it.



*SOME* Christians - not all.



Some people
just seem to have an obnoxious attitude that,
when mixed with the desire to spread the Gospel,
turns into just a cruddy and very unattractive attitude.

*SOME* - not all.



I guess what I mean to say is that if people are actually speaking about born-again Christians
in such a way to indicate that it's a *commonly held belief*
that born again Christians are unlikable,
then that's probably an indicator that as a whole,
*we* need to work on our approach
so that people see the light of Christ in our attitudes, and not the very human attitudes that are so easily displayed.

[Meaning whatever sinful tendencies that can show up in a person's attitude or behavior toward other people.]
I highlighted things there to show that I'm *not* slamming Christians - I'm talking about all of us, myself included, being responsible for how we're perceived by the nonbelievers in society who say these things.
BUT...



That said, it's also true that some people are going to dislike Christians
**regardless** of how friendly and pleasant we are,
and no matter how well we do interpersonally.

Some people just don't like Christianity, so they fixate on the Christians.



So yes, I'm aware that Christian beliefs are offensive to people often, regardless of how sweet-spirited believers are. But that still doesn't excuse nasty attitudes or superiority issues.



The problem, I think, is
when an obnoxious person uses "witnessing" as an excuse to be obnoxious,
and when people react negatively, the believer then refuses to see their effect on people
- and they just chalk it up to "another sinner" who "doesn't want to know the truth."
Almost like some people can't get it in their heads that their attitude might be the issue.



I don't understand why it is that so often, if anyone brings up the fact that there are a lot of really rude Christians who make a bad name for Christians and the faith in general, people get so bent out of shape about it. As if we're supposed to pretend that Christians never sin, never have attitude issues, and we're supposed to cheer for anyone who spreads the Word - even if they do it venomously. Even if they're not *really* 'evangelizing' - but rather being hateful to someone, some group, whatever... and then hiding behind the Great Commission to cover themselves, saying, "Oh, but even Jesus had to be firm when he turned over the tables in the Temple" and "I'm not afraid to be bold in my faith" and various other sayings. I don't know why we aren't more willing to be real about this.

It's *easy* to pat each other on the back, cheer each other on, talk about how we're all looking up, we can't wait, and so forth. I don't understand why it's such a no-no to say that this is a problem and I wish that we could do something to improve it while we still have an opportunity to *be* here as examples for Christ. We all know that we have only a window of time in history to share the gospel.

Maybe there should be educational programs for people when they're wanting to evangelize and so forth... or maybe for every believer over a certain age. I have no idea - maybe there isn't a solution. Especially if people don't really think it's that important, or if I'm just completely out of touch and in reality we're all doing a wonderful job and we all have tact and empathy for people. I guess if the majority says "we're fine" - then the church must be fine, and no attitude adjustments need to be made. (Well, other than my attitude and others like me who think that *some* of what is said about Christians, in the negative sense, is at least ***partially*** accurate.)

-Stephanie

[LDinthewoods]

When people say things like that, it always sounds to me as if they're saying, "Well, a Christian shouldn't seek the approval of man, so if Joe Blow is condescending and hard-hearted toward people, then so be it; the Bible always warned that we'd be hated by the world." (No - I'm not paraphrasing anything you said there, LD - I'm speaking very generally here.) That is not what I'm saying at all. The Bible is clear how we are to treat un-believers. The reason I believe this is so is because Christians need to be without blame in front of men....a perfect witness. So when the men do blame them (because they will anyway), it will be clear to all who will see that the Christian is being blamed unjustly.

My problem is the writer made an off-hand joke and the Christians jump on the opportunity to expound on every problem Christians have rather than see the obvious. To me it is obvious that she probably IS hating Christ....not some obnoxious Christians in her life. Why do so many of us choose to assume the worst of our brothers & sisters based on the word of a non-believer?

I mean, we can be kind, we can treat people with respect for what they think and feel, and lead them to Christ without being unlikable in the process.
By the way, I'm not highlighting my frustrations with other Christians...
really, I'm just saying that I get what the writer was saying because I think that the Christian community, as a whole, has a real epidemic of that sort of thing... and I think we should just acknowledge it and stop pretending that the church is 100 percent sweetness-and-light when it comes to dealing with those outside the church, teaching potential new Christians/seekers, expressing our faith and beliefs to those uneducated about it, etc.

I'm not "bashing" Christians - and my viewpoint is that it's wrong to just give Christians "a break" and just be satisfied with the fact that many people *aren't* jerky. I don't think that it's edifying to the church, and I don't think it's educating those who are searching for God (knowingly or unknowingly) for us to stick our heads in the sand.
First, I haven't noticed that Christians with attitude problems is "epidemic". But I can only assess my little area of the planet which doesn't really give me a bird's eye view of all Christians. But since my experience with fellow brothers & sisters has been mostly positive, it is hard for me to assume that Christians all over the world are rude & condescending. I'm not pretending that there are not some socially challenged people in the Christian community. But I don't think it is edifying to call them out anonymously for blanket criticism either. Thankfully, we have the Holy Spirit to step into these people's lives & convict them. That may be something that happens to them in a sermon or while praying or studying the word....or maybe a close friend or family will help them deal with their poor behavior.

IMO, we should give Christians a "break" as well as have faith in the Holy Spirit & the Word to help each of us with our sin. Christ gave us a "break"....that's not to say He never taught us what to do, but His most important act was the act of grace on the cross. It is the greatest thing we can show each other IMO.


I don't think that the church has been very good at communicating with nonbelievers;
I don't know how anybody can make a blanket statement like this about the Church....the body of Christ. "The Church" that is acting in the will of GOD does not have problems communicating with non-believers. Yes, some Christians may not be good at witnessing, but the church as a whole does not fail if we are trusting in Him & are doing things not under our own power or for our own glory. And even those who are witnessing for Christ for their own glory can still be used by the LORD.


I don't understand why it is that so often, if anyone brings up the fact that there are a lot of really rude Christians who make a bad name for Christians and the faith in general, people get so bent out of shape about it. Because it is kind of insulting & it is being aimed in the general direction of all believers; and also because it has not been my experience that there are "a lot of really rude Christians".....that's why it tends to get me bent out of shape - because it seems unfounded from where I stand.

[Cat03]

LD said things better than I could. I would like to point out though that many come to this board for christian fellowship. I know I weary of being told how bad christians are in the media. I like to come here and read posts by christians (it makes me feel less alone). So maybe I was oversensitive if so I'm sorry.

[walksbyf8h]

JESSICA WARNER is now on my prayer list for salvation. May the Holy Spirit harry and hound her till she is run to ground and faces Christ in His Glory and what He means to her eternal destination.

God Bless,
mik


:spit I've never heard it put quite like that but :amen :laugh

[walksbyf8h]

Hmmm.

Well, I have a couple of reactions. The first one is that I'm surprised the writer felt comfortable actually *writing* something so rude, particularly when it's so politically incorrect to make slamming remarks about religious groups (you know - we're all supposed to act like every religion is wonderful, and be super-acceptiing and so forth <g> - so if she dislikes born-again Christians, she's sort of being *judgmental* like the very people she dislikes <g> - so that was a bit of a goof, I think.)

My second reaction is probably one that will earn me few RR brownie points... and that is that as rude as her comment was, unfortunately, I get it. I've met some born-again Christians who are, frankly, obnoxious. That's not to say that *our faith* is obnoxious, or that the Gospel shouldn't be taught or whatever... because there's a big difference between the faith and the people within it. Some people just seem to have an obnoxious attitude that, when mixed with the desire to spread the Gospel, turns into just a cruddy and very unattractive attitude.

I guess what I mean to say is that if people are actually speaking about born-again Christians in such a way to indicate that it's a *commonly held belief* that born again Christians are unlikable, then that's probably an indicator that as a whole, we need to work on our approach so that people see the light of Christ in our attitudes, and not the very human attitudes that are so easily displayed.

That said, it's also true that some people are going to dislike Christians **regardless** of how friendly and pleasant we are, and no matter how well we do interpersonally. Some people just don't like Christianity, so they fixate on the Christians. The problem, I think, is when an obnoxious person uses "witnessing" as an excuse to be obnoxious, and when people react negatively, the believer then refuses to see their effect on people - and they just chalk it up to "another sinner" who "doesn't want to know the truth." Almost like some people can't get it in their heads that their attitude might be the issue.

-Stephanie


Umm...I don't think that this is true for the most part. Let me qualify this by saying that I'm not talking about the non-Christians who run around with bibles screaming at people.

I'm talking about in the Word and Spirit Christians. I have never seen anyone like that who is liked. Ever. Their very existence is salt to people's souls. People just don't like them. And most likely, since they are sound in doctrine Christians, they have shared their faith truthfully, corrected unsound doctrine, etc. and folks don't like them all the more.

IMHO, it should always be remembered that Jesus was a nice person. But, Jesus was truthful and one who got to the point quickly. There was no bend in His truth. Heaven forbid it be a Pharisee who was misleading people! So, if I were to look at His personality, I would say that he was blunt and kind.

For that He was killed.

While the world may tolerate a Christian, the world will never like them. If it does, there's serious problem.

[sracer]

That is not what I'm saying at all. The Bible is clear how we are to treat un-believers. The reason I believe this is so is because Christians need to be without blame in front of men....a perfect witness. So when the men do blame them (because they will anyway), it will be clear to all who will see that the Christian is being blamed unjustly.

My problem is the writer made an off-hand joke and the Christians jump on the opportunity to expound on every problem Christians have rather than see the obvious. To me it is obvious that she probably IS hating Christ....not some obnoxious Christians in her life. Why do so many of us choose to assume the worst of our brothers & sisters based on the word of a non-believer?
Probably because we see so many of our brothers and sisters in Christ, who, once saved by Grace, now push a legalistic agenda.

The only way to win people to Christ is through love... not bash 'em in the head with a Bible and drag them kicking and screaming into the kingdom. Or worse... browbeat them into submission. :doh

When we witness in love, they are without excuse. Then what they "hate" is the Truth. If we "witness" in judgment and condemnation, then are they turned off by the message or the messenger? Yes, Jesus said we would be hated... but because of the message... not the messenger.

Some Christians don't even understand what it means to "witness" to somebody. They think that it is to share the Gospel with an unbeliever and then hound them until they accept Jesus as their savior or until they get so fed up of hearing it that they break off with them. I can't find any scripture to support that.

My marching orders are to share the Gospel and live my life so that it is a reflection of Jesus. Once a person has heard the Gospel, it is THEIR responsibility of what they are going to do with that.

I pray that we (myself included) remember that it was ultimately God's Holy Spirit that convicted us of sin and brought us to a place of repentence and acceptance of Jesus. That we're saved by the Grace of God and not because we're spiritually cool dudes and dudettes.

[Stephanie]

Probably because we see so many of our brothers and sisters in Christ, who, once saved by Grace, now push a legalistic agenda.

The only way to win people to Christ is through love... not bash 'em in the head with a Bible and drag them kicking and screaming into the kingdom. Or worse... browbeat them into submission. :doh

When we witness in love, they are without excuse. Then what they "hate" is the Truth. If we "witness" in judgment and condemnation, then are they turned off by the message or the messenger? Yes, Jesus said we would be hated... but because of the message... not the messenger.

Some Christians don't even understand what it means to "witness" to somebody. They think that it is to share the Gospel with an unbeliever and then hound them until they accept Jesus as their savior or until they get so fed up of hearing it that they break off with them. I can't find any scripture to support that.

My marching orders are to share the Gospel and live my life so that it is a reflection of Jesus. Once a person has heard the Gospel, it is THEIR responsibility of what they are going to do with that.

I pray that we (myself included) remember that it was ultimately God's Holy Spirit that convicted us of sin and brought us to a place of repentence and acceptance of Jesus. That we're saved by the Grace of God and not because we're spiritually cool dudes and dudettes.


I love that. Thank you for sharing that - you said a lot of really valuable things. :):

[BHiles]

hmmm

Mark 6:7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;
8 And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:
9 But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.
10 And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place.
11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
13 And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them.

The first witnesses. Seems like some who have posted would have condemned them for their method.

[kristine]

BHiles, no where does the scripture say that they were instructed to witness in a rude or obnoxious way. They probably did share with LOVE and when they were rejected ---- they left and brushed the dust off their feet. I'm sure they spread the WORD with enthusiasm but with LOVE. GOD IS LOVE, afterall. His desire is for us to come to Him and choose Him because HE LOVES US SO VERY MUCH. God is not anxious for us to go to Hell ---- He's anxious for us to choose Him so we can spend eternity with HIM.

If we do not approach these people with a sense of love, sensitivity as we share the WORD, we could lose them forever. We don't want that. God doesn't want that. He wants as many people to be saved as possible.

What about "planting a seed" in the minds of the unsaved. Do we do this by being obnoxious Bible thumpers. NO! We do so with love, love and more love. We are born to NEED LOVE (God's love). There's plenty of rudeness in the world to go around but what we need --- what they need is LOVE. Love and sensitivity along with the Word is what will plant a seed or attract these people sooner rather than later.

I wonder about these first witnesses. Did they have a knowing as to who would reject the Word forever? Do you suppose they planted a seed and it took awhile for that seed to grow in some people? How did they know who to brush the dust off their feet at? I'm not being sarcastic. I really would like to know the answer to this question because we are always taught to "plant a seed."

I for one, do NOT want to be responsible for someone running from salvation because of my obnoxious or rude behavior. I want to KNOW that I did my very best to lead them to Christ with HIS LOVE in me.

[Stephanie]

hmmm

Mark 6:7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;
8 And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:
9 But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.
10 And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place.
11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
13 And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them.

The first witnesses. Seems like some who have posted would have condemned them for their method.


Kristine's exactly right. All that passage indicates is that if someone won't receive or hear you (presumably because they don't want to potentially come to Christ, so they don't want to hear) - then so be it.

And actually, that very passage illustrates *why* I think that we need to be sure we're really on our best behavior when we speak to others about the gospel --
*because* of the fact that the person *might* not want to "receive or hear" us, we may have to "depart" and shake the dust off...
so our attitude had better be appropriate, lest the person reject the message because of the messenger's attitude problem.

-Stephanie


EDIT: Great minds think alike, Kristine - LOL

[Jiggy37]

And actually, that very passage illustrates *why* I think that we need to be sure we're really on our best behavior when we speak to others about the gospel --Philippians 2
14 Do all things without complaining and disputing, 15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.


:):

[Stephanie]

Philippians 2
14 Do all things without complaining and disputing, 15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.


:):

Ah! Good - yes, fault is what I'm talking about. I'd completely feel at fault (and I think I *would* be) if I was obnoxiously hateful when trying to spread the Gospel, focusing on "hellfire" commentary and finger-pointing rather than emphasizing the forgiveness God offers, and displaying love.

-Stephanie

[kristine]

Amen!

I'd like to share a story to explain one of my approaches I used as a young woman. A high school friend of mine had been raised in a good Christian church and was taught to love God. She was a beautiful, intelligent girl who had a lot of potential to be a good citizen in this world.

When we were 19, she met a man who was about 14 yrs. older than her. This was back in 1970 and the hippy "free love" movement was still in progress ---- not the mention the sexual revolution. She fell in love with this man (who was married and separated, btw). He seduced her and led her into the very pit, IMO. Sexual immorality was rampant with his friends and they frequently got together as a "group."

I loved this friend like a sister and I wanted to bring her back to Christ. I also saw an opportunity to "plant a seed" with the others in this group. Okay, at 19 yrs. I was VERY BRAVE AND GUTSY! I met these people "where they were at." Did I participate in their parade of lust? YOU MUST BE KIDDING!!! NO WAY!!! BUT, I did have to be VERY CAREFUL what I said around them. I did not carry my Bible and scream, "SIN!!!!" Though, I wanted to!!!!

On one of these occasions, I knew I was in DANGER. I was a virgin and I wasn't about to lose it in the way they had planned for the evening. As the night progressed, I came up with a plan. Frequently, I excused myself to the restroom and while in there, I put juuuuussssst a little bit more makeup base on to make myself look pale. The lighting was perfect so I was able to apply it without it looking fake or cakey. Each time I went into the restroom, I made sure to flush the toilet. :laugh

After about an hour of us all sitting and gabbing, my friend's boyfriend looked at me with concern. He asked if I was feeling okay. Well, of course I denied feeling ill. (Denial was a part of the plan. Had I told him I was ill, he may have figured out I was faking. :laugh) About 15 minutes after he asked how I was feeling, I excused myself to the restroom yet again. This time I put a little makeup base on my lips for an even better affect. When I came back to the room, I really looked sick. Her boyfriend insisted that she take me home!!!! My friend told him that I never lie and if I said I was okay, than I was okay! Ha!!!! Anyway, angry as she was, she drove me home.

A couple of days later, we all went to the lake. One of the men that I spoke to was married (big surprise). I managed to sneak in a conversation about God, Christ and religion. He gave me his views and I could tell he was beginning to feel a sense of guilt. The next day, monday, he confessed to taking money from the safe at his place of employment. For awhile, he tried to live his life as a Christian but fell. Did I plant a seed? Yes. Is he saved, today? I have no idea.

I lovingly kept talking to my friend without sounding "judgemental." I showed her the Word and expressed God's love for her. today, she is a born again Christian and on fire for God! Her daughter is grown and also saved.

Now, for the boyfriend.... About a year later, I ran into him. He had such a look of guilt and sadness on his face. I smiled and said hello. It was if a big weight had suddenly lifted from his shoulders. Is he saved today? I don't know. Did I plant a seed with him? Yes. I later learned that he was seeking God. It's my hope and prayer that he eventually found God.

As for the rest of the group ---- who knows. I entered this group WITHOUT compromising my own values. They KNEW why I was not doing the things they were over time. I did not participate in their activities nor did I drink. When they would ask me why I wouldn't drink, I would tell them it was against my religious beliefs. I would not go farther than that unless they asked me.

Point being, I was subtle, non judgemental, kind, loving and I treated them like human beings. This all took place in one summer. By the end of summer, I had planted a seed in the minds and hearts of 3 people. The rest hated and rejected me because I was too "goody goody." :laugh

Would I do this again? Yes, if I was still young, healthy and could RUN when I had to. :pound I loved taking chances and risking my very life and well-being to bring others to Christ. It was a real, as kids used to say, RUSH!

At least one person is saved and with God because of the love, kindness and sensitivity I used when witnessing. Btw, I did witness to each individual in the group. I made it a point, not to be PUSHY. When I think of these people, I wonder how their lives turned out and I say a prayer. As evil as they were behaving, they still had a lot of good to offer if they would just come to Christ.

[Stephanie]

That was *good thinking*! (I had Galeed read that story just in case she ever needs to use the "Oh no, I Feel Perfectly Fine" technique <g>. Good reason to carry a bit of extra makeup - you never know when you might need to look deathly ill, LOL)

You've probably planted many seeds over the years unknowingly, too, just by maintaining a Christian attitude and displaying it in your contact with people.

Much better than being overbearing!

[HoustonRockets]

If you don't like a person why buy them a present???????????????? talk about defeating the very act. I give to you but I do not like you, but because its the season I am constrained to give to you.

[kristine]

If you don't like a person why buy them a present???????????????? talk about defeating the very act. I give to you but I do not like you, but because its the season I am constrained to give to you.



:confused Are you responding in the right thread? If so, what are you trying to say? I'm a little confused. Maybe I'm just having one of my dense moments. That happens to me a lot in my old age. :lol

[Indiana Janz]

If you don't like a person why buy them a present???????????????? talk about defeating the very act. I give to you but I do not like you, but because its the season I am constrained to give to you.

Good point. :):

[Indiana Janz]

Are you responding in the right thread?

So far he's about the only one who is. :doh

[MrJim]

Just a scripture that came to mind:

1Cor 13:4-8 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.

[kristine]

Just a scripture that came to mind:

1Cor 13:4-8 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.



MrJim, that is a beautiful verse. That's what we have all been trying to say --- in our own clumsy way. :laugh

Thank you!

[kristine]

So far he's about the only one who is. :doh


Oh man! We really did get off topic! :doh :lol

It's the holiday stress. Yeh, that's it. :pound