Date of Jesus' birth: Feast of Tabernacles or Christmas? (Protestants&Messianic only)

[JoelH]

Hi brothers and sisters,

I have been trying to see which one is more likely. Let's put "Each and every day is holy" and "we should not argue on festivals" reasonings aside, was Jesus born in September or 25 December?

--------------------------------------

I found this from a Catholic justifying Jesus born on Christmas:

* The Liturgical Year: Dom Gueranger

And firstly, with regard to our Saviour's Birth on Dec. 25, we have St. John Chrysostom telling us in his homliy for this Feast, that the Western Churches had, from the very commencement of Christianity, kept it on this day. He is not satisfied with merely mentioning this tradition; he undertakes to show it is very well founded, inasmuch as the Church of Rome had every means of knowing the true day of our Saviour's Birth, since the acts of the enrollment, taken in Judea by command of Augustus, were kept in the public archives of Rome.The Holy Doctor adduces a second arguement, which he founds upon the Gospel of St. Luke, and he reasons thus: we know from the sacred Scriptures that it must have been in the fast of the sevent month (Lev 23.the 7th month, Tsiri, corresponded to out Sept, beginning of October) that the Priest Zachary had the vision in the Temple; after which Elizabeth, his wife, conceived St. John the Baptist; hence it follows that that the Blessed Virgin Mary having, as the Evangelist St Luke relates, received the Angel Gabriel's visit, and conceived the Saviour of the world in the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy, that is to say March, the Birth of Jesus must have taken palce in the month of December.

* Or, one could ignore the Records of the Enrollment, the Bible, Tradition, Ecclesiastical Calendars etc and continue to sow enmity and error in an attempt to discredit the Church Jesus established (matt 16:18)

(Source: search FreeRepublic religion forum on thread "Why some Christians don't celebrate Christmas". I can't post the link here as it is another discussion board)

---------------------------------------

I also found this justifying Jesus born during Feast of Tabernacles:

http://biblicalholidays.com/Tabernacles/birth_of_christ.htm

...

When Zechariah was ministering in the temple, he received an announcement from God of a coming son. The eighth course of Abia, when Zekharya was ministering, was the week of Sivan 12 to 18 (Killian n.d.). Adding forty weeks for a normal pregnancy reveals that John the Baptist was born on or about Passover (Nisan 14). We know six months after John's conception, Mary conceived Jesus (Luke 1:26-33). Therefore, Jesus would have been conceived six months later in the month of Kislev. Kislev 25 is Hanukkah. Was the "light of the world" conceived on the festival of lights?

Starting at Hanukkah, which begins on Kislev 25 and continues for eight days, and counting through the nine months of Mary's pregnancy, one arrives at the approximate time of the birth of Jesus at the Festival of Tabernacles (the early fall of the year).

...

----------------------------------

Now, I know a Catholic defender of Christmas as Jesus's birth date actually dismisses the reasoning of Feast of Tabernacles as "...out of touch with sound OT Biblical exegesis and wildly out of touch with sound NT exegesis...". Is this casual dismissal valid?

Thanks, and try to keep the arguments civil.

YBIC,

Joel

[antsinmypants]

The Levitical Flocks (nor any other) are not available and out in the fields in December in Israel.

They bring all the sheep into the folds near people's homes after the feast of Tabernacles, because it is too cold (and dangerous) to keep the sheep and shepherds out that late.

Also, Taxes were levied at two important times by the romans upon Israel: Pesach (passover) and Sukkot (tabernacles). The only time a woman would be looking for an inn, and would stay in a "stable" (Sukkah in hebrew) Would be at the feast of Tabernacles. Also, at this time, "swaddling clothes" were in abundance as *all* of the preists (as in Passover) were serving in the temple, and could not serve in torn garments. The torn garments were taken down and used for wicks in the great menorot around the temple complex, and also given to poor women who needed swaddling for their infant children.

At this point in time, it was common for women to stay in hotels rather than in the sukkah as G-d had commanded every man, woman and child in Israel to keep the feast (dwell in tabernacles (sukkot) for 8 days).

For Y'shua to be born completely 100% blameless in the Torah, he had to be born in the sukkah and placed on the feeding table (which is attached at the corner in a slant so that one could keep their food and cooking utensils there).

Another point of that being done, is He is the Bread from Heaven, born in Bethlehem (Beit Lechem- house of bread)... Many signs were to be seen of him being born, wrapped and laid on this table as is Challah bread during the Feasts and Sabbaths.

The Levitical Shepherds had their flocks near Bethlehem and Jerusalem feeding before the great feast when they would be needed for sacrifice.

I happen to agree with Biblicalholidays.com that it is entirely conceivable that Y'shua was conceived at Hanukkah. That would have been the perfect time for *The Light of the World* to come to this earth... at the festival of Lights.

Ironically enough, he was circumcised and dedicated on Simchat Torah (Joy and feasting of the Torah) on the 8th day of Sukkot, when he was lifted as the LIVING TORAH before all the earth to see, by both the prophetess Chanah and by the Prophet Simeon.

The same day he was circumcised, men and women came to celebrate the Torah being given of G-d (Y'shua) to Moses and the Children of Israel to spread to the entire world. It is said when the Torah is praised that it is "L'Etz Chayim Chai" - the Tree of Life, is he.

Ironically enough, He came as Bread from Heaven, The Light of the world and Dedicated on the day He came as the Tree of Life. (Every man shall not live by bread alone; but by *every word which proceeds from the mouth of G-d*)

[blitzkreig]

I have never been taught that December 25th was the actual date of His birth.

Is there a church that does define it as the 25th ... ? :noidea

I suppose it would be interesting to pinpoint but as it isn't stated in Scripture ...

[antsinmypants]

Is there a church that does define it as the 25th ... ? :noidea

Yep. The Catholic Church.

[Joel]

:thumb

John gives us a hint. . .


John 1:1-13 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.






The word there for 'dwelt' in the Greek is. . .


G4637
σκηνόω
skēnoō
Thayer Definition:

1) to fix one’s tabernacle, have one’s tabernacle, abide (or live) in a tabernacle (or tent), tabernacle
2) to dwellPart of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4636
Citing in TDNT: 7:385, 1040



[Strong's Definition]

G4637
σκηνόω
skēnoō
skay-no'-o
From G4636; to tent or encamp, that is, (figuratively) to occupy (as a mansion) or (specifically) to reside (as God did in the Tabernacle of old, a symbol fo protection and communion): - dwell.



G4636
σκῆνος
skēnos
Thayer Definition:

1) a tabernacle, a tent
2) metaphorically of the human body, in which the soul dwells as in a tent, and which is taken down at deathPart of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4633
Citing in TDNT: 7:381, 1040



[Strong's Definition]

G4636
σκῆνος
skēnos
skay'-nos
From G4633; a hut or temporary residence, that is, (figuratively) the human body (as the abode of the spirit): - tabernacle.


G4633
σκηνή
skēnē
Thayer Definition:

1) tent, tabernacle, (made of green boughs, or skins or other materials)
2) of that well known movable temple of God after the pattern of which the temple at Jerusalem was builtPart of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: apparently akin to G4632 and G4639
Citing in TDNT: 7:368, 1040



[Strong's Definition]

G4633
σκηνή
skēnē
skay-nay'
Apparently akin to G4632 and G4639; a tent or cloth hut (literally or figuratively): - habitation, tabernacle.





A few translations catch this and render it as such. . .



(Analytical-Literal Translation) And the Word [or, the Expression of [divine] Logic] became flesh and tabernacled among us

(Amplified Bible) And the Word (Christ) became flesh (human, incarnate) and tabernacled (fixed His tent of flesh, lived awhile) among us

(AUV-NT) [Eventually] this Word became a human being and lived among us [Note: The word “lived” here refers to pitching a temporary tent].

(International Standard Version) The Word became flesh and tabernacled among us

(Literal Translation of the Holy Bible) And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us

(Modern King James Version) And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us

(Messianic Renewed Covenant) And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us

(James Murdock New Testament) And the: Word became flesh, and tabernacled with us

(The Scriptures ISR 1998) And the Word became flesh and pitched His tent among us

(1898 Young's Literal Translation) And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us




The language John employs seems to imply an allusion [the Word becoming flesh and tabernacling] towards the Feast of Tabernacles.

A feast in which the Jews would pitch tents and temporary huts for one week to relive the wilderness journies.

[JoelH]

I have never been taught that December 25th was the actual date of His birth.

Is there a church that does define it as the 25th ... ? :noidea

I suppose it would be interesting to pinpoint but as it isn't stated in Scripture ...

I think the Catholic message I quoted is the closest of someone who attempts to use the Bible to justify Christmas.

Although we have two contradictory observation: proponents of Christmas claims that the duty time for Zacharias was in was during the 7th month, Tsiri, corresponding to September/October, while those who support Sukkot as the time sees that the duty time was the week of Sivan 12 to 18 (Killian n.d.).

So which one is more correct?

YBIC,

Joel

[blitzkreig]

Yep. The Catholic Church.I didn't know that ...

[poetess]

I thought Jesus was born in the spring. The shepards were out in the fields...meaning it wasnt winter. Somewhere I read that the shepards would stay with the flocks during the spring lambing season...and what better time for the Lamb of God to be born?

[Bethshaya]

The only problem with the Dec 25th is that even in Israel, it would have been too cold for sheep to be grazing in the fields and for the shepards to have been there. It had to have been a warmer timeframe. During the coldest winter months, the sheep are moved into stables and are not pastured.

Also, if you look at some of the jewish holidays and line them up with events in Jesus' life, His life lines up perfectly with each of them both literally and symbolically. Once I found this out, it was like everything clicked for me and the text shouted out Yes! That's it! God is clever indeed. Why else would He give these festivals to the Jews, but to fullfill them in His Son.

The feasts that have been fulfilled in order in Christ's life:

Sukkoth (Tabernacles) - September or October. Christ is our tabernacle or dwelling place (John 14:14). May represent the 1000-year reign of Christ on earth. Many believe Jesus was born during this Feast because He was born in the late fall in a "booth". Or this is possibly when we tabernacle (dwell) with God in heaven. God was made flesh and dwelt among us as man.

Passover (death) - We were passed over and sin fell onto the sacraficial lamb.

Burial (Unleavened Bread) - Leaven symbolizes sin. Unleavened Bread speaks of sanctification. God told the Jews to cleanse all leaven from their homes and eat only unleavened bread, matzah, for seven days, symbolizing a holy walk with Him. Jesus was conquering sin and becoming our salvation.

Ressurection (First Fruits) - The first of the barley harvest was brought as an offering to the priest in the Tabernacle/Temple. The priest would present the first of the harvest unto the Lord by waving them back and forth. This reminded the Hebrews that God gave them the land, and the harvest belonged to Him. Jesus was the first to rise...the first fruit of the harvest of souls that is to come.

Pentecost (Feast of Weeks). Fifty days after Unleavened Bread. Fifty days after Jesus arose, a group of Messianic Jews received the Holy Spirit. Jesus said "Unless I go, the Holy Spirit will not come. But when I go (Firstfruits- His resurrection) I will send the Holy Spirit unto you." God wrote the law (Torah) on the hearts of the believers. Three thousand souls were saved. "This corresponds to the day of Pentecost in Acts".

I dont think symbolically or chronologically it was any accident.

So what is the next feast in the line of succession that is yet to be fullfilled by Christ?

The Feast of Trumpets - Rosh Hoshanah. Christ will come at the sound of a trumpet blast. Could it be on the celebration of Trumpets the traditional celebration of the spiritual birthday of the world or creation. Blowing of the trumpets and coronation of the King. Ringing in The King of Kings into the New World and New Jerusalem?

And after that Yom Kipur, the Feast of Atonement - Christ our Messiah was displayed as our sacrifice. We can use this as a time of self-searching, repentance, and recommitment to God. The goats represent Jews and Gentiles. Possibly points to Judgment Day."

[Joel]

No one knows the Day that He will return for us. :):

Holding that the pre-trib rapture is at least 7 years beforehand His Second Coming, but not necessarily that short of years [i.e there could be a sizeable space inbetween the rapture and the 'signing of the Covenant')

With that said, Revelation's events seem to have a lot of imagery/language that points/alludes to the Day of Atonement and His Second Coming [Remember: entirely different & seperate from the Rapture event, which is a seperate circumstance seperated by several years at least].

What that means is up to the reader - - but found interesting to share.

[antsinmypants]

Although we have two contradictory observation: proponents of Christmas claims that the duty time for Zacharias was in was during the 7th month, Tsiri, corresponding to September/October, while those who support Sukkot as the time sees that the duty time was the week of Sivan 12 to 18 (Killian n.d.).

So which one is more correct?

YBIC,

Joel

All Levites were called to serve for all of the major holidays. The timeframe of His serving as in his lot being called to serve, is only a couple of times a year, except for the times when all levites serve.

The point where Zecheriah is called of the Angel in the Temple, was when it was his lot to serve in the Temple according to His family. That falls for his lot only two times a year if I remember right...

John was born six months before Y'shua.

The lambs being out during sukkot is perfect. The fall in Israel is much like the fall in North-Central Dixie-land (Mississippi, TN, AL, GA, SC).. Sukkot this year, we had highs in North-Central AL Of 80s-90s and our lows were in the 40s. We just piled on blankets and clothes at night whilst camping and loosened up during the day and enjoyed the sunshine.

However, Scripture plainly tells us that Y'shua was with us at sukkot in a succah when born. Not in a house during Pesach in Jerusalem...

[JoelH]

All Levites were called to serve for all of the major holidays. The timeframe of His serving as in his lot being called to serve, is only a couple of times a year, except for the times when all levites serve.

The point where Zecheriah is called of the Angel in the Temple, was when it was his lot to serve in the Temple according to His family. That falls for his lot only two times a year if I remember right...

John was born six months before Y'shua.

The lambs being out during sukkot is perfect. The fall in Israel is much like the fall in North-Central Dixie-land (Mississippi, TN, AL, GA, SC).. Sukkot this year, we had highs in North-Central AL Of 80s-90s and our lows were in the 40s. We just piled on blankets and clothes at night whilst camping and loosened up during the day and enjoyed the sunshine.

However, Scripture plainly tells us that Y'shua was with us at sukkot in a succah when born. Not in a house during Pesach in Jerusalem...

I googled all the dates, and it seems that Zechariah served in the temple 5 times a year:

1. Week 3 Feast of the Unleavened
2. Week 9 Pentecost (15+50=65 days after Nissan 14)
3. Week 10 (2 festivals+8 courses)
4. Week 29 Tishri festival of booths
5. Week 35 (24 courses + 3 feasts + 8 courses)

It is contended by Christmas supporters such as M.M. Ninan that "Luke 1:8 indicates that people could not see him. People gathered together into the Holies for. This was possible only if he had gone behind the curtain , into the Holy of Holies...if this is so this must have been on the Day of Atonement Yom Kippur - Tishri 15. This is the first month in the civil year also."

http://www.acns.com/~mm9n/Christmas/christmas.html

But Tabernacles supporters like Luzius Schneider contend that "Irrespective of the new-year, the month of Nissan starts the counting of the months, the feast seasons and the priestly duty periods in the temple in Jerusalem. Each priestly division had to serve for one week . During the feasts of pilgrimage all 24 division had to serve in the temple. This means, the priest Zechariah, a descendant of Abijah, could return to his wife not before the end of the feast of Pentecost."

http://www.luziusschneider.com/Papers/JesusDateOfBirth.htm

And Christmas supporters claim that when Constantine made Christianity legal in 313 AD, records of Augustus' census order were still on the record and it was easy to determine the exact dates of the census. And so the ECF "could have gone and looked at the Roman archival records"

How would we respond to this claim?

YBIC,

Joel

[antsinmypants]

I googled all the dates, and it seems that Zechariah served in the temple 5 times a year:

1. Week 3 Feast of the Unleavened
2. Week 9 Pentecost (15+50=65 days after Nissan 14)
3. Week 10 (2 festivals+8 courses)
4. Week 29 Tishri festival of booths
5. Week 35 (24 courses + 3 feasts + 8 courses)


Yes. He served at least once, but some years twice, when his house was called to serve (besides holy day services).


It is contended by Christmas supporters such as M.M. Ninan that "Luke 1:8 indicates that people could not see him. People gathered together into the Holies for. This was possible only if he had gone behind the curtain , into the Holy of Holies...if this is so this must have been on the Day of Atonement Yom Kippur - Tishri 15. This is the first month in the civil year also."

http://www.acns.com/~mm9n/Christmas/christmas.html


He was in the office of either serving in the Holy Place.... That would be ANY holiday, unless he went into the MOST Holy..

Scripture does not say he went into the most holy, which is behind another curtain in the holy place.

Luk 1:9 According to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of YHVH.
Luk 1:10 And the whole multitude of the people were praying without at the time of incense.
Luk 1:11 And there appeared unto him an Angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.


He was only in the Holy Place. This could be *any* Time at any holy day or any time he was called to serve. Considering that John is 6 months older than Y'shua, we can back track his conception of 9 months and figure out which time it was he was serving without too much difficulty.

The records of when the lots fall to which section of priests is outlined within scripture in two or three places.

With the help of Talmud, we can also consolidate the 24 sections of the Levites and see which week (or two, as the case may have fallen) plus the Holy Day services.


But Tabernacles supporters like Luzius Schneider contend that "Irrespective of the new-year, the month of Nissan starts the counting of the months, the feast seasons and the priestly duty periods in the temple in Jerusalem. Each priestly division had to serve for one week . During the feasts of pilgrimage all 24 division had to serve in the temple. This means, the priest Zechariah, a descendant of Abijah, could return to his wife not before the end of the feast of Pentecost."

http://www.luziusschneider.com/Papers/JesusDateOfBirth.htm

If he was called for Pesach, and it was not his lot to serve between Pesach and Shavuot (Pentecost) He would go home to his wife. (or any holiday that is in close proximity except for that of Sukkot, which has a holiday on the 8th day, which would keep him even until the 9th, which is also a holiday).




And Christmas supporters claim that when Constantine made Christianity legal in 313 AD, records of Augustus' census order were still on the record and it was easy to determine the exact dates of the census. And so the ECF "could have gone and looked at the Roman archival records"


This is correct as I have found in history... but that doesn't mean they did it. The air of anti-semitism had already been breathed in, and anything "Jewish" was practically abominable.

From my understanding until certain decisions were made in the Catholic Church by the councils; the only holidays celebrated by the early believers were those of the biblical holidays. Not until the changes had anyone fathomed celebrating the birth of Messiah.

[antsinmypants]

Time the lot of Abijah came up:

I Chronicles 24 we know that the priests of the order of Abijah were assigned to Temple service between the 12-18th days of the month of Sivan.

Now it was during his time of service in the Temple, in the week of the 12-18th day of Sivan, that Zecharias was told by an angel that his wife Elizabeth would have a son.

Luke says that Zecharias went home and that Elizabeth conceived. We don’t know exactly when this conception took place. But let’s say that within a week of Zecharias’s temple service ending, she did conceive--around Sivan 25.

If so, Zecharias’ son, who was later known as John the Baptist, would probably have been born on or about Nisan 15, which is the Feast of Passover, 285 days later. Two hundred and eighty five days is the normal human gestation period.

Remember that the gospels say that John the Baptist came in the spirit and power of Elijah. In John’s time the Jewish people were looking for Elijah to come as a forerunner to Messiah, and they expected Elijah to come at Passover.

So if John the Baptist, the “Elijah” to come, was born on Passover, he literally fulfilled this expectation.

(By the way, those of you who have been to a Passover seder know that Elijah is still expected to come at Passover.)

Now IF this is true about when John was conceived and born, let’s consider Mary (Miriam), the mother of Yeshua.

According to Luke, the angel Gabriel visited Mary in the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy. The sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy would have begun on the 25th day of the month of Kislev, which just happens to be the first day of Hanukkah, the Feast of Dedication.

Hanukkah is the feast that celebrates a great miracle, when the Temple was being rededicated in 164 BC after being desecrated by a foreign king. Interestingly, it was on that day that tradition held that both the original temple of Solomon and the temple constructed by Ezra had been dedicated.

Hanukkah is an eight-day feast commemorating the miracle of the temple oil burning for eight nights when there was only enough for one day.

So if we place the appearance of the angel Gabriel to Mary during the Feast of Hanukkah, possibly Yeshua was conceived in Mary’s womb during that very feast. Another interesting tie-in to Yeshua: eight is the number traditionally associated with Messiah, and of course light is the major symbol for the Feast of Hanukkah.

Now 285 days from the first day of Hanukkah is Tisri 15, the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles. So if Yeshua was actually conceived during the Feast of Hanukkah, He would have been born during--the Feast of Tabernacles!

http://www.sidroth.org/prayer_main16.htm

Everything quoted herein, I have found to be true according to scripture.

[Caretaker]

God bless you all;

For myself I reject the claim that the Roman archives would have revealed the taxation records from Bethleham and the name of Joseph.

1) If the record existed to be found under constantine it would have been venerated.

2) The individual taxation names, for all the Roman Empire would have been far too extensive and expensive to "waste" the scrolls on. The correspondance coming from the Roman Procurator for Palestine would have detailed amounts collected and administration business, only. An obscure carpenter, registering in a small village in Palestine would not have been of any concern to the Roman Empire, at the time of the census.

The Roman Census and collection for taxes was collected following the fall harvest, when crops and weaned animals could be available for revenues.

The shepherd would not have been out in the open during the rainy/snowy winter months in Palestine.

For myself the Jewish Festival of Succoth, could not be a more auspicious Feast for Messiah to Tabernacle with man.

For this old greybeard from Kansas it is not an easy matter, nor one lightly entered into, to divest my heart of a half century of man's Christ's Mass traditions.

There will be no Christ's Mass tree around the Throne of David, when our Lord of Lords begines the righteous reign of the Root of Jessie.

There will be no stockings hung in Jerusalem, and no elf to come and fill them.

There will be no Christ's Mass songs sung in the presence of the Lamb of God, but only praises of Glory.

For this old man I thirst for the purity of His Word and His eternal Truth. I find little truth in the celebration of Christ's Mass, but far more of myth and legend decorated with sacred trappings.

In my research I have found that apparently in 1969 the RCC removed St. Nicolas from their list of Saints, do to a lack of solid evidence that he in fact ever existed. The feast of December 6th has apparently been changed from obligatory to an optional celebration.

This is why I use the Grinch as an avatar, for to those who lift-up Christmas in their hearts, my heart appears as small as that of the Grinch as he stole the Who's Christmas.

I merely state my personal perspective and where my heart is. We will probably have a tree, presents, and Christmas programs and dinner with my children and precious grandbabies. I do not force myu personal heart belief onto others, and until the Holy Spirit moves in the hearts of my family they will celebrate, but I cannot any longer in my heart.

May God so bless His precious children.

[lookup]

Since no one seems to know the exact date, or even the approximate time of year of Jesus' birth....

Could we please move it to, say, January or February? I need more time between Thanksgiving and Christmas, and January and February need a holiday in there somewhere.

[Caretaker]

Since no one seems to know the exact date, or even the approximate time of year of Jesus' birth....

Could we please move it to, say, January or February? I need more time between Thanksgiving and Christmas, and January and February need a holiday in there somewhere.




That timing would work out well for the after Christmas sales....;):

There will be a major Holy Feast during the Righteous Reign of the Root of Jessie:

Zech. 14:
16: And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17: And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18: And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19: This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20: In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowl's before the altar.
21: Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.


If it was during Succoth when Christ was born, God was incarnated, then we would still be celebrating the coming of Christ to tabernacle among men, during the proper time. Just a thought.

God bless.

[antsinmypants]

Since no one seems to know the exact date, or even the approximate time of year of Jesus' birth....


But the timing *is* mentioned specifically in scripture.. why can't we just stick with that?

The pilgrims did... as did other early believers before Catholicism recognise that He came at that time...

[Shieldbearer]

But the timing *is* mentioned specifically in scripture.. why can't we just stick with that?

The pilgrims did... as did other early believers before Catholicism recognise that He came at that time...

And there is something so beautiful about the Lamb of God, Light of the world, being conceived at Hanukkah (Festival of Light) and being born at Sukkot, coming to dwell with us.

What's wrong with celebrating those times? Why use a holiday that began as a pagan ritual, and use much of the same pagan symbolism, when there is such a rich depth of meaning and symbolism in Hanukkah and Sukkot?

:confused Until this year, I never realized how the Festivals tie into Christianity. Now that I have studied it and see it, Christmas has lost all appeal to me - it is an empty, man-made holiday that can't be fulfilling in the way that the Festivals appointed by God can be, at least not for me.

[JoelH]

Thanks for the answers. It is quite clear that evidences lean towards the Feast of Tabernacles as Jesus's date of birth. The Christmas arguments are close, but could not match the whole picture as closely.

YBIC,

Joel

[JoelH]

For myself I reject the claim that the Roman archives would have revealed the taxation records from Bethleham and the name of Joseph.

1) If the record existed to be found under constantine it would have been venerated.

2) The individual taxation names, for all the Roman Empire would have been far too extensive and expensive to "waste" the scrolls on. The correspondance coming from the Roman Procurator for Palestine would have detailed amounts collected and administration business, only. An obscure carpenter, registering in a small village in Palestine would not have been of any concern to the Roman Empire, at the time of the census.

The Roman Census and collection for taxes was collected following the fall harvest, when crops and weaned animals could be available for revenues.



I don't support this view either, but to be an adovate of the other side, I would bet they are arguing hypothetically that:

Claim 1) There was a record in Roman Imperial archive about the dates of the census done during Augustus' time.

Claim 2) This record was accessed by some "Church Fathers" in Constantine's times, with the permission of Constantine himself.

Claim 3) They would have found a scroll saying that "Decreed that census be done in December of 20th year of Augustus' time".

Unfortunately in reality, the records that we know from history aren't as detailed, and from Josephus, Cyrenius did conduct a census in BC 6/7 but from evidences it can be safely said censuses often spanned oevr a period of several years even for Roman Empire. In other words, we don't even know the exact year the census was done in Betheleham, let alone the exact month(s)!

At this level of precision using the hypothetical reason of "ECF reading census records" to defend Christmas won't stand.

YBIC,

Joel

[walksbyf8h]

Feast of Tabernacles! Happy Sukkot, Yeshua! :laugh

:sing All hail King Jesus
All hail Emmanuel
King of Kings
L0rd of Lords
Bright morning star
And throughout eternity
I'm going to praise Him
And forever more, I will be with Him :sing