Rick Warren is on CNN's Larry King tonight at 9 pm

[cnav]

For anyone interested

Rick Warren
Purpose Driven Life author Rick Warren - he inspired Atlanta hostage Ashley Smith & Natalee Holloway's mom. Plus, Donald Trump. Tune in at 9 p.m. ET.

[UNeverEverNo]

I'll be watching Tony Stewart and the Nascar Championship Awards Ceremony from NYC at 9. :nod

[Big Daddy]

For anyone interested

Rick Warren
Purpose Driven Life author Rick Warren - he inspired Atlanta hostage Ashley Smith & Natalee Holloway's mom. Plus, Donald Trump. Tune in at 9 p.m. ET.
Tell me about his influence on the Donald.

Is there a link to story I could read?
Thanks

[cnav]

Is there a link to a story I could read?

If you wait until tomorrow and go to this link which is Larry King Live ..archive you can read transcript of the interview...

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/lkl.html


You can always read the transcript to the interview from the night before the next day if you miss an interview you wanted to see

[God's gardener]

My thought about this was :bored

I don't have cable

[barb43]

I watched the first 30 minutes and by that point RW was evading and avoiding directly answering Larry King's questions . . . RW made it sound as if God loves you and you're okay without accepting or having Jesus in your life; and he made it sound as if all religions are okay with God, y'know because the most important thing is to find your God-given purpose in life and get to work . . . and i couldn't take any more, so switched the channel. :puke

[Harley]

...let the beating begin...

[barb43]

:heh Oh, harley! I tried, i really gave it a good shot! I listened with an open mind, and i thought RW was doing a really good job, till it got near the half-hour mark . . . and then it seemed to do such a 180 turn to the dark side that i couldn't stay with it any more. :noidea

[EasyAs1234]

I don't know which part I saw but Rick Warren very clearly stated that those without Jesus are lost when Larry King said "So it's just God help those without Jesus huh?"

I thought everything I heard him say was fine and I didn't see him evade anything, I was actually impressed with the lack of evading from what I've heard of him on this website. But, I didn't see the whole interview, I guess :).

[Harley]

:heh Oh, harley! I tried, i really gave it a good shot! I listened with an open mind, and i thought RW was doing a really good job, till it got near the half-hour mark . . . and then it seemed to do such a 180 turn to the dark side that i couldn't stay with it any more. :noidea
tell ya what - i'll wait couple days, and when the've posted the transcript of the interview i'll read it. and if it is as you say, i will acknowledge the fact.

deal?

[savedandhappy1]

I'll be watching Tony Stewart and the Nascar Championship Awards Ceremony from NYC at 9. :nod


Dang was that on, I forgot, and missed it. Oh, well Jr. didn't win anyways. :lol :lol

[cameron222]

Hey Harley.....:): I saw part of the interview, but I had better :tape to avoid another "vacation" from RR......:heh

The man is a major influence for Christianity.

[70thWeek]

I watched the first 30 minutes and by that point RW was evading and avoiding directly answering Larry King's questions . . . RW made it sound as if God loves you and you're okay without accepting or having Jesus in your life; and he made it sound as if all religions are okay with God, y'know because the most important thing is to find your God-given purpose in life and get to work . . . and i couldn't take any more, so switched the channel. :puke

I watched at least 30 minutes and got the impression that he was promoting Christianity and Jesus.

[barb43]

tell ya what - i'll wait couple days, and when the've posted the transcript of the interview i'll read it. and if it is as you say, i will acknowledge the fact.

deal?

You got a deal! :thumb . . . and i'll point out where it sounded to me like he was being evasive, and promoting a "works" doctrine. :nod

[Kathe]

Here is a testimony about RW. I just had breakfast with someone who is giving out the PDL for Christmas presents to people she knows. She said that she gave it to a friend of hers for her birthday several months ago and the girl read the first chapter and called her and said that she was changing her life. Months later she has given up and stayed away from alcohol and smoking and she has given her life to Jesus. She is a changed person. The book was the catalyst to the change. Now she is going to a good bible based church and is not even the same person anymore. I say thank God for the work RW is doing. Many do not think highly of him but I know that the angels in heaven rejoice with just one person saved. He is doing the work of God, maybe just not how we think it should be done.

I'm reading a history of the church from Christ to current. There have been so many ways to share the gospel over the past 2000 years. I say whatever works to get someone into a life and relationship with Christ. Me it was Joel Osteen (gasp) who constantly said week after week of watching him, get into a good bible based church. Well, after 4 months of listening to him say that I finally looked around and found one and got saved and on my way to a fantastic and wonderful relationship with Jesus.

I can't wait to thank him (JO) for saying that week after week. It might not mean much to anyone here but it meant eternity for me. And the PDL meant eternity to this girl I just told you about.

Just my opinion. Kathe

[70thWeek]

Here is a good quote from the interview:
WARREN: It's more a matter of trusting, rather than trying. See, the difference between Christianity and other religions, other faiths can be summed up in the difference between the word do, and the word done.
Sounds good to me.
All religions have their list of to-do, even Christianity has this list of you do these things, but you don't get God's approval by the things do you.

When Jesus Christ was dying on the cross, he said, it is finished. he didn't say I'm finished. He said it's finished. What did it mean? He had paid for all of the things that I had done wrong. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0512/02/lkl.01.html

From a video clip of Warren shown before commercials WARREN: If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in your heart God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Notice, it is not just believe in your heart, it is speak with your mouth. God says faith comes when you state it. (ibid)

Sounds like the gospel was presented on the show.

[Cindybobindy]

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/12/01/evangelicals_spread_the_word_of_aids_victims_at_home/?rss_id=Boston+Globe+--+National+News


Free HIV testing in Churches?????????????:faint



:tape :tape :tape

[roadrunner570]

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/12/01/evangelicals_spread_the_word_of_aids_victims_at_home/?rss_id=Boston+Globe+--+National+News


Free HIV testing in Churches?????????????:faint



:tape :tape :tape

What is wrong with that? :confused

[HeartlandGal]

I'm not a fan of Rick Warren. However, I read the entire transcript of the interview and really didn't find anything real wrong with it.

He did not cave in to homosexual behavior being ok. He pointed out we all have desires, and so on but we choose to do the right or wrong thing.

He did confess Jesus as Christ and made some really good statements.

I wouldn't mind knowing where he got his statistics about more women having AIDS then men though..

Overall, he did a good job.

[Cindybobindy]

What is wrong with that? :confused

If they are going to give free tests for HIV in Churches...then they need to also offer tests for Syphillus, Venereal Disease and STD's I would think.

[roadrunner570]

If they are going to give free tests for HIV in Churches...then they need to also offer tests for Syphillus, Venereal Disease and STD's I would think.

But those diseases aren't fatal.

[Cindybobindy]

But those diseases aren't fatal.

There are other diseases that are fatal...why not test for those at Church?

[roadrunner570]

There are other diseases that are fatal...why not test for those at Church?

Well...start your own church and test for whatever you want.

I still don't see what the problem is here. They are offering HIV tests and assistance for people that normally might night be able to afford it, or who are just afraid to get one, and ministering to them in the process.

[Dear2HIM]

I've been reading the interview and am about 3/4 way through.
I think he is playing the moderate line in the interview. I don't think he is a natural at these types of interviews. If he is trying to get a point across that shows where the non-line budging truth is, he failed at it.

However, if someone has a bad taste in their mouths about Christians of the evangelical persuation...well he certainly is the guy to make them possibly re-think their opinion of them (is that good or bad?)

I wish one of these evangelical leader interviews someone would actually say something contraversial, like: "Hey, if 80% of our country is Christian and this is how we treat the problems of AIDS and poverty and moral corruption...then it's time to assess if you understand what being a CHRISTIAN really is!"

He seems like a tolerant person, but is quick to exclude himself from those crazy christian fundamentalists.

Christians who have to work hand in hand with the world seem to do a whole lot of defending themselves and proving that they are not the intolerant, fanatical bunch they think we are.

I'm looking for men to stand up and be men and maybe care less of being liked and popular....say the truth, make no excuses for it, and live a life that is a darn good example of it.

This interview if done by many other big evangelical leaders would have gone similarily -- except maybe for John MacArthur who is the least of all a soft-foot. BLUNT as ever, the man is. Whether you like him or not, you know what he stands for and believes.

[Dear2HIM]

Here is my main problem now that I've read it:
There is a message here that in my opinion feeds into our post-modern "my truth is for me please don't be offended by it" stuff.

1. He said that God chose the Jews to be His people so that:
a. He could give us the law
b. We all could know that there is a God
c. "As a Christian I believe was to give us the messiah"

Is number three only true according to our Christian faith? I'm not saying that He is intentially making this clause...but read through the interview and see what you think. It's not the first time I've seen this in his interviews
(Ladies Home Journal was pretty bad!).

As a person who first even learned anything about RW through reading and watching interviews -- not a PDL reader or participator -- to me he comes across weak and wishy'washy. Just my opinion.

[HeartlandGal]

Here is my main problem now that I've read it:
There is a message here that in my opinion feeds into our post-modern "my truth is for me please don't be offended by it" stuff.

1. He said that God chose the Jews to be His people so that:
a. He could give us the law
b. We all could know that there is a God
c. "As a Christian I believe was to give us the messiah"

Is number three only true according to our Christian faith? I'm not saying that He is intentially making this clause...but read through the interview and see what you think. It's not the first time I've seen this in his interviews
(Ladies Home Journal was pretty bad!).

As a person who first even learned anything about RW through reading and watching interviews -- not a PDL reader or participator -- to me he comes across weak and wishy'washy. Just my opinion.


I read the PDL and could not stand it. I think it is a feel good book.. However, I volunteer teaching the bible to international students and I do find myself often saying things like "As Christians, we believe that......." or "The Bible teaches us that...." I don't feel something is true just according to my faith, I do feel like I am saying these things are the truth and I aknowledge that truth as a Christian. A non-believer will not aknowledge it as truth.

Now, after saying that.. I don't know if I agree with his assesment as to why God choose the Jews. Unless he gives scripture to back it up, then it is simply speculation and opinion.

[Dear2HIM]

Yes, Heartlandgal, that certainly could have been how he meant it. Don't know. But in the context where he set that phrase in the context of "as a christian I believe that..." in regards to Jesus as Messiah it sounds weak.

Would have come across much stronger by stating it as a universal truth regardless of the context of religion.

Again, though. I don't know what he meant. :):

[Cindybobindy]

Well...start your own church and test for whatever you want.

I still don't see what the problem is here. They are offering HIV tests and assistance for people that normally might night be able to afford it, or who are just afraid to get one, and ministering to them in the process.



Why haven't they been doing this for Cancer patients who have NO insurance??????? (I have a close friend whose husband has NO medical insurance and recently had a colostomy)
My point is...why all of a sudden are they so willing to help people with AIDS (which is mostly a sexually transmitted disease)??????? In my mind it reeks of Political Correctness.
I'm in NO way saying NOT to help these people, but it just seems like they are using it to further an agenda.
Just my opinion.

[MrJim]

I feel that anything Rick Warren could possibly say would be met with criticism and judgement. I wish RR would just ban this topic forever.

[Ready4Jesus]

WARREN: If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in your heart God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Notice, it is not just believe in your heart, it is speak with your mouth. God says faith comes when you state it.


As this was an interview, I'm giving the benefit of doubt, I really am. "confess with your mouth lord jesus christ" is an incomplete sentence and does not acknowledge anything.

I have been concerned about this man's absense of talking about sin and repentance. I have not found anything written in my research that shows that he talks about this. RW's church's statement of faith on his website is absent of this as well.

Jesus said:
Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Luk 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mar 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

RW's argument about homosexuality was man's logic talking as opposed to using the word of God. The word of God about homosexuality in today's world, would hardly be politically correct. Don't get me wrong, helping people with Aids is not an issue AT ALL, because it is a loving thing to do. But if you have compassion on someone for their body, but not for their soul, then there is a huge problem. So a mesage of Christ without the message of repentance does not help the person at all. And repentance is necessary to accept christ, because without acknowledging your sin, then there is no need for a savior.

There was a time that I knew Jesus was the savior of the world and for me as well, but I did not look within to see what I really was....and boy was I amazed at the masses of sin once I looked, once I was broken. That is when I became born again. And it is written, that the stone will break you to pieces or crush you.


We must preach the gospel in its entirety. Jesus said: Jhn 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

Sin is the reason we needed a savior, it is what separates man from God, and acknowledging that Jesus Christ died for your sins and is the savior of mankind need to be preached in its' entirety.

My opinion is this: Those that think that they are saved that Jesus tells "i never knew you" have probably never acknowledged what they are (sinners and that means looking at all of what you have done and all your dirty laundry and admitting it to yourself as well as to God)and why they need him.

I am not saying these things to be devisive, but the lack of what this man says really concerns me.

And I'm sure that there are more intelligent people here both in IQ and knowledge of scripture. If these points that I mentioned are not crucial, please tell me the error of my ways.

[Dear2HIM]

Looking at an interview of a major world player and deciding if what they are saying represents you (as RW has been the spokesperson for evangelical christianism) is what this country has been doing for years. He is a influential political player now, not just some pastor and author.

Judgement is not something we should be doing. I do not judge RW's heart anymore than anyone on this board. When I do I need to repent.

[roadrunner570]

Why haven't they been doing this for Cancer patients who have NO insurance??????? (I have a close friend whose husband has NO medical insurance and recently had a colostomy)
My point is...why all of a sudden are they so willing to help people with AIDS (which is mostly a sexually transmitted disease)??????? In my mind it reeks of Political Correctness.
I'm in NO way saying NOT to help these people, but it just seems like they are using it to further an agenda.
Just my opinion.

I don't know, I can't answer for them. But I know of plenty of churches that aren't doing anything for anybody, why not pick on them?

From what I've seen, any church has limited resources so has to channel what they have to certain areas. This one apparently feels called to help people with AIDS/HIV, I'm sure there are others that help people with cancer. I volunteer for an organization who visits, calls and ministers to cancer patients. Just because places don't send out press releases about it doesn't mean no one is doing anything.

[Dear2HIM]

Ready4Jesus,
I'm not a high IQ or stronger in scripture, but I know exactly what you are saying. This is what makes this new/gentle Jesus stuff so difficult for me. There is wrath involved regarding our sin. This isn't taught anymore. I'm pretty non-confrontational and don't like it anymore than anyone else but if you don't know really why you need a savior, you don't have one.

[barb43]

from the interview tanscript: http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0512/02/lkl.01.html

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: One of our favorite guests, the founding pastor of the Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, he's Rick Warren, author of the number one "New York Times" best seller "The Purpose Driven Life."

Let's go to some calls.

Gimli, Manitoba, hello.

CALLER: Hi, Mr. Warren. It's a pleasure to be speaking to you tonight. My question is, is everyone a child of God, even if we belong to different faiths, like Judaism, and Buddhism, are we all children of God?

WARREN: I think we're all created by God. There's no doubt in my mind. We're all creatures of God. I think to be a child of God, you have to choose to be a part of a family.

It's kind of like this. When I was born, I automatically became a part of the human race. I didn't have a choice. I was being born. I automatically became a part of it.

But I didn't become a part of a specific family until somebody chose to take me home with them, and I became part of that family, and I think God says, in fact, he makes very clear in the Bible, you want to be my child, I'll take anybody who chooses me.

KING: Does God love you if you don't believe in Christ?

WARREN: God loves everybody. There's no doubt about that. He'll never stop loving you.


Right here, RW evaded and avoided - why didn't he tell this woman the straight up truth, which is found in John 14:6, where Jesus told the disciples "I am the way and the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father except through me." This would have answered the caller's question. Sure, God created us all, and the point is for us to have fellowship with Him, through His Son, Jesus Christ. RW missed a great opportunity to explain that while God might love everyone, only those who repent of their sins and ask God's Son into their lives will have their names written in the book of life. He used a vague form of non-speak to answer.

What's your take on this, harley?

The way RW answered the caller, and Larry King as well, leaves oh, so much room for interpretation.

[70thWeek]

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/12/01/evangelicals_spread_the_word_of_aids_victims_at_home/?rss_id=Boston+Globe+--+National+News


Free HIV testing in Churches?????????????:faint



:tape :tape :tape

And the problem is?

[jesusno1]

What was she formed for? Healings of the physical sense or reaching out so JESUS could heal the rift in the soul... the separation between God and man?

We are getting way off base here. If we are getting more human conscience with illnesses of the body then, we will start to lose our sense of conscience for the real reason JESUS came. We remember how many times HE healed people physically in the Bible for a SIGN for Israel. So, Isreal would repent and believe on HIM. We are mostly Gentiles and we live by faith.

No God never promised us health or wealth here on this earth. HE gave us a home in Heaven that is perfect where we will be able to abide in these things with HIM in our new bodies and our home. We will suffer for the cause of Christ and part of this is because, of the season we are in. Suffering abounds as sin is still abounding and growing with people denying the only way to Heaven.

Sure, this sounds great on the outside but, what about the inside of these folks. Where is the salt? Does not the WORD of GOD convict the soul and then, the HEALER can still heal if it HIS will. We have to bend to HIS will not our purpose for living... HIS purpose. We need to be there in a spiritual sense for these folks. They need spiritual healing not another free clinic.
There are out there everywhere. But, if we don't take them the real JESUS they will perish in their sins. I have a concern that RW and these clinics will not present the sin/repentance part of the message that God is love and JESUS loves you... We have to remember there was a debt that JESUS paid for each of us and we have to turn from our wicked ways and follow JESUS.

So, what is GOD's Purpose for the church? Fatherless, widows, and the poor.... Are they being helped to the extent of someone letting JESUS be introduced to them to be the Father, the Husband, the benefactor/protector?
This sounds more like another attempt to bring in the humanistic/humanitarian side of the water-down gospel of the new improved jesus.

Sorry, but, time is so short and we need to reread.... about false teachers and preachers.. We need to remember WHO we are following... not man. But, JESUS Christ our risen LORD and Saviour. God loved the world to send HIS best... now let's give HIM our best through HIS timing and HIS way.

Blessings to you this season and remember the reason we remember HIM ... HE is the Saviour of this world and the only Prince of Peace.

Jesusno1

[Kathe]

Why haven't they been doing this for Cancer patients who have NO insurance??????? (I have a close friend whose husband has NO medical insurance and recently had a colostomy)
My point is...why all of a sudden are they so willing to help people with AIDS (which is mostly a sexually transmitted disease)??????? In my mind it reeks of Political Correctness.
I'm in NO way saying NOT to help these people, but it just seems like they are using it to further an agenda.
Just my opinion.


:(: Maybe they look at it as a way to reach the lost? I would guess that most with AIDS are not living a life in Christ. What a great mission to take on, to work with those with this disease and show them the way to the Lord. We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. ALL. Whether that is by living a life of an active homosexual or losing your temper and yelling at your kids or not forgiving someone who did wrong to you or lying to someone, it doesn't matter. The lost are the lost and we are here to show love and kindness and the gospel to them all. I did some absolutely horrid things in my past. I'm so glad that God forgave me. I know He loves us all. He is our creator. There is not one of us He has turned His back on. He wants us all to come to Him. I think this is an awesome mission and I applaud them for taking it on. For those of you who are casting stones, I ask you what you have done to spread the gospel lately? I'm not picking on any one person - I'm asking us all - including myself. The time is short and instead of bashing someone else for the way they are working to spread the good news of our King, we should be finding our own way. Shame on us all. What about our family, our friends, our neighbors, the lady at the grocery store.

Ephesians 6:19-20

19Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.

Kathe

[Harley]

ok first off the transcript had this disclaimer:

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

anyway, i don't agree with everything he said, but i didn't see anything fundamentally wrong either. i saw were he refused to take king's bait a couple times, he rfused to let king open needless cans of worms, but i didn't see him being evasive.

[Harley]

If they are going to give free tests for HIV in Churches...then they need to also offer tests for Syphillus, Venereal Disease and STD's I would think.
i've seen this applied before, but i don't remember by who... i'm not sure why you think not addressing issues d, c, and d, invalidate attempts at addressing "a"... particularly when "a" is so much more pandemic.

[Harley]

Here is my main problem now that I've read it:
There is a message here that in my opinion feeds into our post-modern "my truth is for me please don't be offended by it" stuff.

1. He said that God chose the Jews to be His people so that:
a. He could give us the law
b. We all could know that there is a God
c. "As a Christian I believe was to give us the messiah"

Is number three only true according to our Christian faith? I'm not saying that He is intentially making this clause...but read through the interview and see what you think. It's not the first time I've seen this in his interviews
(Ladies Home Journal was pretty bad!).

As a person who first even learned anything about RW through reading and watching interviews -- not a PDL reader or participator -- to me he comes across weak and wishy'washy. Just my opinion.
well, if this is the worst thing you saw then good for rick... how can you seriously argue with "as a christian i believe...?" believing jesus is the messiah is what makes you a christian - jews don't beleive it, muslims son;t believe it, etc. etc. etc....

[Harley]

after reading these objections i've come to the conclusion that warren would be damned no matter what he said, tried, did - the reality is, no matter what he says, tries, does... we can also point out what he did not say, try, do ---

[Dear2HIM]

Oh brother, Harley.
Why do you work so hard to paint everyone in threads about Rick Warren as heresy hunters?

You missed my point completely.

[Harley]

i understand your point - you think he was being wishy-washy - that he was somehow weakening the universality of the truth by saying "as a christian i believe..."

ya know... billy graham says the same thing all the time. i've heard him in a lot of interviews answer with that intro... all it is is an intro to the speakers perspective - nothing more.

[Harley]

Oh brother, Harley.
Why do you work so hard to paint everyone in threads about Rick Warren as heresy hunter?...
that's a good question - though i don't think i'd use the term heresy hunter. there's a lot of things i see rick doing that i don't care for - but i think he gets a really bad rap around here... that he's held to an impossibly high standard, that straw-man are routinely built (usually based on something he did not do or say) just to be set on fire --- and if there is nothing intrinsically wrong with what he says - additional meaning and/or motives will be poured into to it...

i'm not saying you do all this - this is what i have seen across the many many threads...

...that and i like being the contrarian - shall we start talking about hal lindsey next???

[barb43]

there's a lot of things i see rick doing that i don't care for - but i think he gets a really bad rap around here...

...

...that and i like being the contrarian - shall we start talking about hal lindsey next???

Thanks, harley! :thumb This makes you "all right in my book!", as my dear ol' daddy says. :):

[Rebecki]

But those diseases aren't fatal.

Tell that to these 942 infants who died from congenital syphilis from their mothers. http://www.thebody.com/cdc/news_updates_archive/may30_02/syphilis_infants.html

And on that note, that's all I'm sayin' in this thread.
:bolt

[barb43]

Syphilis can be deadly to adults too . . . Isn't that what killed Al Capone?

I don't really see anything wrong with offering medical testing at church. The issue, in my mind, is "to what purpose?" Are we really concerned with getting people to the medical help they need? Are we just grandstanding? Are we looking for hurting people to minister to with the Word of God? Are we just grandstanding? You get my point.

[70thWeek]

Syphilis can be deadly to adults too . . . Isn't that what killed Al Capone?

I don't really see anything wrong with offering medical testing at church. The issue, in my mind, is "to what purpose?" Are we really concerned with getting people to the medical help they need? Are we just grandstanding? Are we looking for hurting people to minister to with the Word of God? Are we just grandstanding? You get my point.

I see it as fulfilling what Jesus told us to do. Of course, the gospel should be preached as well. But, we shouldn't create a scenario that says, "you can only get treatment if you accept Christ."

[barb43]

Oh, i agree with you, 70th Week - I certainly wasn't intending that someone would have to accept Christ to receive help. MY suspicion goes to the other extreme - that the program exists more to bring attention to the one running it or promoting it than to the humble purpose of really providing folks with a valuable service.

[Harley]

from the interview tanscript: http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0512/02/lkl.01.html



Right here, RW evaded and avoided - why didn't he tell this woman the straight up truth, which is found in John 14:6, where Jesus told the disciples "I am the way and the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father except through me." This would have answered the caller's question. Sure, God created us all, and the point is for us to have fellowship with Him, through His Son, Jesus Christ. RW missed a great opportunity to explain that while God might love everyone, only those who repent of their sins and ask God's Son into their lives will have their names written in the book of life. He used a vague form of non-speak to answer.

What's your take on this, harley?

The way RW answered the caller, and Larry King as well, leaves oh, so much room for interpretation.
since you asked... i didn't see this is avoidance. the guy asked if warren considered all people god's children - that in itself needs to be defined. i don't know if the caller was trying set -up warren or not, but i thought rick did a good job at delineating between being god's creation, and being part of his family.

warren clearly went the direction of a difference between being created an recreated. your quote ends with warren's response to king, but the next voice is king takeing another caller - who know's maybe warren was ready to persue this father but king went on to another call - no seems to get a follow-up question...

anyway, i thinkg warren was clear enough when he addressed christmas: he said:

First, Jesus came to show us what God's really like. There are a lot of things we know about God just by looking at the world. We know God's organized, you look at the universe. We know God's powerful. We know God likes variety. You can just look around.

But there are some things we wouldn't know about God without Jesus that God is loving, that God is forgiving, that God is generous, that God has a plan for our lives.

The second thing is he said, I sent you a savior. If we needed, if our greatest need was education he would have sent us a teacher. If our greatest need was finances he would have sent us an economist. If our greatest need was health, he would have sent a doctor.

But he sent us a savior because our greatest need is forgiveness.
this is clearly not avoiding the issue.

[Harley]

Tell that to these 942 infants who died from congenital syphilis from their mothers. http://www.thebody.com/cdc/news_updates_archive/may30_02/syphilis_infants.html

And on that note, that's all I'm sayin' in this thread.
:bolt
what diseases are or are not terminal is moot to the question... rick warren feels called to address what everyone sees as a pandemic - to somehow/anyhow ask "...but why not this disease..." as an opossition tactic is unfair, to miss the point, and maybe even to question god - if indeed he has called rick to address this one particular issue.

[twelvesmaster]

I saw the interview --

This part troubles me:

WARREN: ...one of the co-founders of Act Up, actually invited him and paid his way to come to the conference. And, I said, "I want you to just check this out." He's not a Christian. I said, "Just come and check us out because I think we deserve the skepticism" and I think he heard me say it's not a sin to be sick.

Now people ask me all the time what do you think about homosexuality, OK? Well, I don't approach it -- I approach it like this. When you look at a female body and you look at a male body it seems that naturally certain parts go together.

KING: It seems that way, therefore how do you explain why someone is homosexual?

WARREN: I don't explain it. I don't explain it.

KING: Well, then that doesn't suffice.

WARREN: Well, and...

Why doesn't a pastor know that the answer is "sin"? -- Or maybe he could have just quoted Romans 1?

Also --

KING: Is God a he?

WARREN: I believe he is.

KING: A he? Male.

WARREN: Well, the Bible says that God refers to God as a he, so I'm going to refer to God as a he. That is what he chose, but he is clearly more than just a he because the Bible says he made man male and female in his image.

So they are male attributes of God and there are female attributes of God.

KING: Sounds homosexual. Sorry for bringing it up.

WARREN: No, I'm not going down that path.

KING: Wouldn't that be a story?

WARREN: No, no, not going down that path.

At this point Rick laughed heartily along with Larry at the suggestion that God has homosexual attributes. Am I the only one bothered by this?

[Harley]

I saw the interview --

This part troubles me:



Why doesn't a pastor know that the answer is "sin"? -- Or maybe he could have just quoted Romans 1?

Also --



At this point Rick laughed heartily along with Larry at the suggestion that God has homosexual attributes. Am I the only one bothered by this?
i'm sure you won't be... i bet some will even think warren is somehow saying god is homosexual... :rolleyes

[carmen]

I saw the interview --

This part troubles me:

WARREN: ...one of the co-founders of Act Up, actually invited him and paid his way to come to the conference. And, I said, "I want you to just check this out." He's not a Christian. I said, "Just come and check us out because I think we deserve the skepticism" and I think he heard me say it's not a sin to be sick.

Now people ask me all the time what do you think about homosexuality, OK? Well, I don't approach it -- I approach it like this. When you look at a female body and you look at a male body it seems that naturally certain parts go together.

KING: It seems that way, therefore how do you explain why someone is homosexual?

WARREN: I don't explain it. I don't explain it.

KING: Well, then that doesn't suffice.

WARREN: Well, and...

Why doesn't a pastor know that the answer is "sin"? -- Or maybe he could have just quoted Romans 1?I don't try to "explain" homosexuality or why it occurs either. King didn't ask if it was a sin; he asked Warren to explain why people are that way. Had he answered by saying "Homosexuality is a sin," he would have been avoiding the question.

Also --

KING: Is God a he?

WARREN: I believe he is.

KING: A he? Male.

WARREN: Well, the Bible says that God refers to God as a he, so I'm going to refer to God as a he. That is what he chose, but he is clearly more than just a he because the Bible says he made man male and female in his image.

So they are male attributes of God and there are female attributes of God.

KING: Sounds homosexual. Sorry for bringing it up.

WARREN: No, I'm not going down that path.

KING: Wouldn't that be a story?

WARREN: No, no, not going down that path.

At this point Rick laughed heartily along with Larry at the suggestion that God has homosexual attributes. Am I the only one bothered by this?I think he laughed because King was CLEARLY, NO DOUBT ABOUT IT, baiting Warren. Warren refused to be baited and he answered the question by saying what the Word says. I think he answered just fine, and the laughter diffused what could have otherwise become ugly. There was no need for that.



I also wanted to address Warren's church offering AIDS testing. I see it as a way for his church to reach out to a group of people that is frequently and publically bashed by Christian groups as a whole. Heterosexual sin barely registers with Christian groups, let alone generates any excitement to change it. And yet, heterosexual sin in the U.S. touches by FAR more people than homosexual sin. Warren has chosen to reach out to a group most Christians won't reach out to, and I see nothing wrong with that. Jesus chose to reach out to women involved in prostitution and adultery when the religious establishment of the day only spit on them or put them to death. To me, offering such testing is at best following that example. At worst, if he doesn't add the "go and sin no more" part, he has still brought them into contact with Christians that are loving and kind, and perhaps sparked an awareness that Christ doesn't hate them and isn't waiting to reject them. God can use that to reach their hearts.

I am also profoundly grateful that no one reviews every word out of my mouth to decide whether I witnessed "properly," did a good enough job of representing Christ, and got every word just right :(:. If they did, I'd be in serious trouble, because I never get it exactly right so as to satisfy everyone. Warren gave the gospel. I'm proud of that and that it was publically aired. I pray God will use it to draw many to Him for salvation.

[Harley]

I don't try to "explain" homosexuality or why it occurs either. King didn't ask if it was a sin; he asked Warren to explain why people are that way. Had he answered by saying "Homosexuality is a sin," he would have been avoiding the question.

good call! i'll go a step further... i saw a prominent evangelical on king once, every question that was asked was answered with... "well, larry, a person needs to receive jesus as their savior to..." it was soooo frustrating! i understand the motivation to sieze the proverbial moment - but it became silly... kinda like this:

king: so, do you think a homosexual is born that way, or do they decide what orientation to take?

evangelical: well larry, it really does not matter sin jesus said all who receive me shall..."

i literally screamed at the tv "Just answer the question wil ya?!?"

I think he laughed because King was CLEARLY, NO DOUBT ABOUT IT, baiting Warren. Warren refused to be baited and he answered the question by saying what the Word says. I think he answered just fine, and the laughter diffused what could have otherwise become ugly. There was no need for that.
many of king's question are designed as bait - i agree with this interoretation of the moment.



I also wanted to address Warren's church offering AIDS testing. I see it as a way for his church to reach out to a group of people that is frequently and publically bashed by Christian groups as a whole...

:thumb

I am also profoundly grateful that no one reviews every word out of my mouth to decide whether I witnessed "properly," did a good enough job of representing Christ, and got every word just right :(:. If they did, I'd be in serious trouble, because I never get it exactly right so as to satisfy everyone. Warren gave the gospel. I'm proud of that and that it was publically aired. I pray God will use it to draw many to Him for salvation.
... i noticed your final prayer used the generic term "God" - why didn't you be more specific and...:D:

[twelvesmaster]

I don't try to "explain" homosexuality or why it occurs either. King didn't ask if it was a sin; he asked Warren to explain why people are that way. Had he answered by saying "Homosexuality is a sin," he would have been avoiding the question.

I think he laughed because King was CLEARLY, NO DOUBT ABOUT IT, baiting Warren. Warren refused to be baited and he answered the question by saying what the Word says. I think he answered just fine, and the laughter diffused what could have otherwise become ugly. There was no need for that.



I also wanted to address Warren's church offering AIDS testing. I see it as a way for his church to reach out to a group of people that is frequently and publically bashed by Christian groups as a whole. Heterosexual sin barely registers with Christian groups, let alone generates any excitement to change it. And yet, heterosexual sin in the U.S. touches by FAR more people than homosexual sin. Warren has chosen to reach out to a group most Christians won't reach out to, and I see nothing wrong with that. Jesus chose to reach out to women involved in prostitution and adultery when the religious establishment of the day only spit on them or put them to death. To me, offering such testing is at best following that example. At worst, if he doesn't add the "go and sin no more" part, he has still brought them into contact with Christians that are loving and kind, and perhaps sparked an awareness that Christ doesn't hate them and isn't waiting to reject them. God can use that to reach their hearts.

I am also profoundly grateful that no one reviews every word out of my mouth to decide whether I witnessed "properly," did a good enough job of representing Christ, and got every word just right :(:. If they did, I'd be in serious trouble, because I never get it exactly right so as to satisfy everyone. Warren gave the gospel. I'm proud of that and that it was publically aired. I pray God will use it to draw many to Him for salvation.
Sorry -- I didn't see it that way.

As I said before, I watched carefully -- I was actually rooting for Rick because I wanted him to get it right for Jesus' sake. He mentioned this wasn't his first time on Larry King, and he was clearly quite comfortable -- did not appear ill at ease or as if someone were putting him on the spot.

You're right about flubbing the witnessing -- I've done it a couple of times myself. If this is what was truly happening, then perhaps Rick should choose a different venue to "reach out to homosexuals." And by the way -- as someone mentioned before, warriors for Jesus such as Billy Graham and John MacArthur have no problem being up front about the truth on camera.

[twelvesmaster]

i'm sure you won't be... i bet some will even think warren is somehow saying god is homosexual... :rolleyes

I remain troubled.

The subject of homosexuality was a serious enough topic in the Old Testament to warrent death. We have Grace now to deal with it, and every other sin mankind is prone to. God didn't change His opinion about it though -- you can't point to one scripture that says so.

[carmen]

... i noticed your final prayer used the generic term "God" - why didn't you be more specific and...:D::fish :lol

You're right about flubbing the witnessing -- I've done it a couple of times myself. Disagrement is fine :): Just wanted to clarify this....I wasn't saying he flubbed anything. I think he did great, and better than I would in the same position. Certainly better than I have done one on one at times, and I am glad no one is pouring over my words and saying how awful I did because I didn't say it the way they think I should've.

If this is what was truly happening, then perhaps Rick should choose a different venue to "reach out to homosexuals." Maybe I am miss-reading this (and if so, forgive me).....but are you so sure that God didn't lead him to reach out that way? If the Lord did so, you are saying that a brother in Christ should disobey Him. I don't think that's a road I'd be too quick to go down. Just my two cents, of course :):

[twelvesmaster]

I don't try to "explain" homosexuality or why it occurs either. King didn't ask if it was a sin; he asked Warren to explain why people are that way. Had he answered by saying "Homosexuality is a sin," he would have been avoiding the question.

KING: It seems that way, therefore how do you explain why someone is homosexual?

Romans 1 is a very good explanation for why homosexual behavior, and all other sins (which are rebellion against God) occur. It would have been the perfect reference. Yes it explains it very well.

[carmen]

Romans 1 is a very good explanation for why homosexual behavior, and all other sins (which are rebellion against God) occur. It would have been the perfect reference. Yes it explains it very well.So you think Warren should have said something along the lines of:Well, Larry, because people that were heterosexual rejected God, and chose not to acknowledge or glorify Him, they became homosexuals. And that's why people are homosexual today.:confused

Am I missunderstanding you?

[twelvesmaster]

forgive me.....
You're forgiven. :D:

[Harley]

I remain troubled.

The subject of homosexuality was a serious enough topic in the Old Testament to warrent death. We have Grace now to deal with it, and every other sin mankind is prone to. God didn't change His opinion about it though -- you can't point to one scripture that says so.
so was dishonoring your parents if i recall... point is, no where did warren say it was not a sin - he just didn't condem it to your liking...

if a rebellious teen called in about some trouble he was in - would warren be somehow doing wrong if he didn't tell the kid his rebellion was sin but only addressed the trouble? - context, context, context!

[twelvesmaster]

So you think Warren should have said something along the lines of::confused

Am I missunderstanding you?I'm saying homosexuality, and all other sin, is a symptom of rebellion against the one true and holy God. Mankind has forsaken the Creator and is now worshiping the creation -- homosexuality being one of the penultimate expressions of mankind worshiping himself.

[Harley]

Romans 1 is a very good explanation for why homosexual behavior, and all other sins (which are rebellion against God) occur. It would have been the perfect reference. Yes it explains it very well.
does romans 1 really offer the answer to why people are homosexual? it clearly calls homosexual acts sin, it even gives some cause and effect - not acknowledging god they... but it does not say "why" people are drawn to those acts.

so, if someone asked "...therefore how do you explain why someone is homosexual?" calling it a sin is completely out of context. it does not answer the question.

[carmen]

I'm saying homosexuality, and all other sin, is a symptom of rebellion against the one true and holy God. Mankind has forsaken the Creator and is now worshiping the creation -- homosexuality being one of the penultimate expressions of mankind worshiping himself.That doesn't actually explain why homosexuals are homosexual, though :peep. I know there are homsexuals that truly get saved and yet aren't delivered from those feels of attraction immediately, or even over years of time. So just saying that people are homosexual (in the sense that King asked the question) because they are worshipping mankind instead of God doesn't work.

[twelvesmaster]

so was dishonoring your parents if i recall... point is, no where did warren say it was not a sin - he just didn't condem it to your liking...

if a rebellious teen called in about some trouble he was in - would warren be somehow doing wrong if he didn't tell the kid his rebellion was sin but only addressed the trouble? - context, context, context!

Again -- KING: It seems that way, therefore how do you explain why someone is homosexual?

He doesn't have to "condemn" it to my liking, or anyone else's. God has already done that. I still assert that Paul has given us the best "explanation" in Romans 1

Rebellious teenagers usually know up front they are wrong. They're not organizing "Rebellions Teenager Parades" or asking anyone to validate their behavior.

[twelvesmaster]

Romans 1:18-32 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools,
and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man-and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

You honestly don't see the "explanation" here?

[carmen]

You honestly don't see the "explanation" here?This is the only "explanation" I see that could be given:
Well, Larry, because people that were heterosexual rejected God, and chose not to acknowledge or glorify Him, they became homosexuals. And that's why people are homosexual today. Perhaps you would be willing to be Warren for a minute and answer the question using Romans. That might clear it up (at least for me...not that I'm that important, but I am curious as to your point). :):

[Harley]

Again --

He doesn't have to "condemn" it to my liking, or anyone else's. God has already done that....
i think this is exactly the problem, you said you had a probelm with how warren answered the question, you wrote; "Why doesn't a pastor know that the answer is 'sin'?"

of course warren knows it's sin. and no where does he say it is not. he just dit not condem it to your liking.

besides, as carmen so eloquently pointed out - you are troubled by his non-answer to a question that was not asked...

[Harley]

You honestly don't see the "explanation" here?
i don't see where this would have been the appropriate explanation, given the question and context.

[twelvesmaster]

This is the only "explanation" I see that could be given:Perhaps you would be willing to be Warren for a minute and answer the question using Romans. That might clear it up (at least for me...not that I'm that important, but I am curious as to your point). :):
A holy, "perfect in righteousness and justice" God, created man in His image. He also created an order -- one man and one woman. Man foolishly rejected this order and rebelled against God. According to Romans one, God gave them up to their foolishness and their lust. Homosexuality is one of many sins man is prone to, according to Roman 1. Sin must be repented of in order for salvation to be a fact in one's life. Without repentance, there is no justification. Those who persist in homosexuality are persisting in sin. And so is everyone who, as Paul says, persist in "all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; [those] full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they [which] are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, [the] violent, [the] proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, [those who are] disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful" -- we are all in there somewhere, Larry, until we come to a saving faith in Jesus, whose blood shed on the cross is the only remedy. The explanation, Larry, is sin and rebellion. The cure, Larry, is Jesus.

[twelvesmaster]

I really don't know how you can talk about an "explanation" for a problem without also addressing how to fix it. That would be unloving.

[carmen]

A holy, "perfect in righteousness and justice" God, created man in His image. He also created an order -- one man and one woman. Man foolishly rejected this order and rebelled against God. According to Romans one, God gave them up to their foolishness and their lust. Homosexuality is one of many sins man is prone to, according to Roman 1. Sin must be repented of in order for salvation to be a fact in one's life. Without repentance, there is no justification. Those who persist in homosexuality are persisting in sin. And so is everyone who, as Paul says, persist in "all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; [those] full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they [which] are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, [the] violent, [the] proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, [those who are] disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful" -- we are all in there somewhere, Larry, until we come to a saving faith in Jesus, whose blood shed on the cross is the only remedy. The explanation, Larry, is sin and rebellion. The cure, Larry, is Jesus.IMHO, Twelvesmaster, you haven't given an explanation for people being homosexuals. You have only given a picture of all fallen man. You avoided the question. Why are people attracted to those of the same sex (ie, homosexual)? It isn't just because they're all fallen--we are ALL fallen, but not all of us are homosexual.

[70thWeek]

I think that Warren answered the questions that we asked of him. That's what an interview is!

[Harley]

A holy, "perfect in righteousness and justice" God, created man in His image. He also created an order -- one man and one woman. Man foolishly rejected this order and rebelled against God....The explanation, Larry, is sin and rebellion. The cure, Larry, is Jesus.

warren clearly said it was not natural, so that covers the one man/one women part... that he did not use the words "creator" "rebellion" or take it as far as romans 1 are semantics and extent - as i said, you are uspet that he did not answer the question to your liking - or as far as you thought he should have... and before you say this is not "your" answer but god's - consider all the references to homosexuality your answer leaves out... aome may say you didn't take it far enough...

... as for "cure" this was not part of the question.

context-context-context

[carmen]

I really don't know how you can talk about an "explanation" for a problem without also addressing how to fix it. Again, IMHO, he did so: WARREN: The second thing is he said, I sent you a savior. If we needed, if our greatest need was education he would have sent us a teacher. If our greatest need was finances he would have sent us an economist. If our greatest need was health, he would have sent a doctor.

But he sent us a savior because our greatest need is forgiveness. Perhaps we will simply have to agree to disagee :):. I read what Warren said and I see a presentation of the gospel. He may not have answered everything exactly as I would, but in some cases that's a good thing, since I am sure my answers could generally ALL use some amount of improvement (probably more than I'd like to admit :laugh).

I think he did a good job of avoiding the traps King tried to lay for him. Christ did that avoidance technique too, when the religious leaders of the day tried to trap Him (not comparing Warren with Christ, just saying the technique is a good one).

I also think he did a great job of phrasing things so as to leave few loopholes for non-believers to crawl through and punch holes in when listening to him. Perhaps some will hear the message of salvation instead of picking through a bunch of explanations he gave to see how to best tear them apart. In the end, Christianity isn't about explanations. In the end, it's all about faith and what a person chooses to believe.

[Harley]

...I read what Warren said and I see a presentation of the gospel....
now that you mention this - the whole point of the discussion centered around the aids initiative - a gospel presentation was not even the point.


(carmen, my mother is a snow-bird)

[carmen]

now that you mention this - the whole point of the discussion centered around the aids initiative - a gospel presentation was not even the point.The first few posts, I think, were more oriented around the way he represented the biblical truth overall (including the gospel). Regardless, if he got the gospel out there, and didn't misrepresent what God's word said, and I'm happy :D:


(carmen, my mother is a snow-bird)Well, she must have been freezing along with the rest of us this morning, then. It was at least in the 40s! BRRRRRR!!!!!! :lol

[twelvesmaster]

IMHO, Twelvesmaster, you haven't given an explanation for people being homosexuals. You have only given a picture of all fallen man. You avoided the question..

Romans 1:24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,

I take exception to your comment that I'm avoiding anything -- apparently, I'm running in place.

Romans 1 practically shouts the "explanation" -- and, yes that is exactly why they, and all of creation is fallen. "Fallen" explains murder. "Fallen" explains thievery. "Fallen" explains all the nasty little things we do to each other. Do I have to go on?

Why are people attracted to those of the same sex (ie, homosexual)? It isn't just because they're all fallen--we are ALL fallen, but not all of us are homosexual

Is there scripture to back this up?

[Harley]

...Well, she must have been freezing along with the rest of us this morning, then. It was at least in the 40s! BRRRRRR!!!!!! :lol
yeah, when i talk to her on the phone she tells me all about the weather and how much time she spent at the pool - then she has the nerve to ask why i don't call more often!!!

[Harley]

...Romans 1 practically shouts the "explanation" -- and, yes that is exactly why they, and all of creation is fallen. "Fallen" explains murder. "Fallen" explains thievery. "Fallen" explains all the nasty little things we do to each other. Do I have to go on?...
at this point the answer becomes trite. it would have been trite if king had ask "...therefore how do you explain why someone is homosexual?" and warren had just said - "well larry, all of creation is fallen. 'Fallen' explains murder. 'Fallen' explains thievery. 'Fallen' explains all the nasty little things we do to each other.

[twelvesmaster]

at this point the answer becomes trite. it would have been trite if king had ask "...therefore how do you explain why someone is homosexual?" and warren had just said - "well larry, all of creation is fallen. 'Fallen' explains murder. 'Fallen' explains thievery. 'Fallen' explains all the nasty little things we do to each other.You left out the rest of what I said.

BTW, I just went back and scanned the entire transcript. No form of the word "repent." Could somebody point it out to me?

[Harley]

...Is there scripture to back this up?
scripture isn't needed to back this up. "fallen" may explain why we sin, but it is not the answer to why some people commit certain sins while other do not.

"why did you order the steak and not the chicken?" - "because i'm hungry." that does not answer the question, it may address why you ordered food, but it does not address why you ordered steak and not chicken. saying we are fallen does not explain shy someone falls into a particular sin when other's do not.

[Harley]

You left out the rest of what I said.

BTW, I just went back and scanned the entire transcript. No form of the word "repent." Could somebody point it out to me?
ok, so i left out "Do I have to go on?" - doesn;t change anything

as for not using the word "repent" - so what?

context-context-context...

i have not yet used it in this thread myself - what does that make me?

[Harley]

You left out the rest of what I said.

BTW, I just went back and scanned the entire transcript. No form of the word "repent." Could somebody point it out to me?
you're right!!! and he also never says jesus is god, or the bible in infallible, sinners go to hell, or all sorts of other things...

again, it's easy to pick on the things he did not say... particularly when the context doesn't warrant it...

[twelvesmaster]

as for not using the word "repent" - so what?

context-context-context...

i have not yet used it in this thread myself - what does that make me?
Repentance is an essential part of the plan of salvation.

Context? The context of the moment?, or the context of the whole interview?

[carmen]

I take exception to your comment that I'm avoiding anything -- apparently, I'm running in place.

Romans 1 practically shouts the "explanation" -- and, yes that is exactly why they, and all of creation is fallen. "Fallen" explains murder. "Fallen" explains thievery. "Fallen" explains all the nasty little things we do to each other. Do I have to go on?In just reviewing the replies, Harley has already stated what I would have said in pretty much the same words, so I won't repeat it except to say that I understand that you don't believe you are avoiding the question, and I do believe you think you are answering it.

However, to me, you are answering the broad question of "What is the explanation for sin?" But you are NOT answering the specific question of "What is the explanation for homosexuality?" no matter how clearly it appears to you that you are. I didn't mean to cause offense, though, with my statement. My humble apologies for having done so.

Is there scripture to back this up?Is there scripture to back up what? That all of us are fallen, but not all of us are homosexual? :confused

[carmen]

Repentance is an essential part of the plan of salvation.

Context? The context of the moment?, or the context of the whole interview?I have used John 3:16 to explain the gospel and yet it doesn't mention repent either, Twelvesmaster.

[Harley]

Repentance is an essential part of the plan of salvation.

Context? The context of the moment?, or the context of the whole interview?
exactly... and king and warren were not talking about how one is saved. if they were and he left out repentance - i'd agree. but you are arguing he left out an element of something they were not discussing...

...kinda like pointing out that someone left out an ingredient for a cake - when what they are discussin is how to grill a cheese sandwich...

[allynnegirl]

In the end, Christianity isn't about explanations. In the end, it's all about faith and what a person chooses to believe.

Can I quote you in my signature? PLEASE!!!! :thumb :D:

[roadrunner570]

Tell that to these 942 infants who died from congenital syphilis from their mothers. http://www.thebody.com/cdc/news_updates_archive/may30_02/syphilis_infants.html

And on that note, that's all I'm sayin' in this thread.
:bolt

Okay, so we want to play numbers games. ANY illness can be fatal if not properly treated or caught soon enough. Even the flu for crying out loud. I don't know of any church that does every single thing for everybody. If you can name me one, I'd like to hear it.

So if I'm understanding correctly, Saddleback church is somehow in the WRONG for offering HIV testing for people who would like to be tested and in the process having the opportunity to minister to them?

Did I miss something here? :confused

[Harley]

...I understand that you don't believe you are avoiding the question, and I do believe you think you are answering it....
i think this signature worthy as well... though i understand it completely :D:

[Harley]

...So if I'm understanding correctly, Saddleback church is somehow in the WRONG for offering HIV testing for people who would like to be tested and in the process having the opportunity to minister to them?

Did I miss something here? :confused
no, you pretty much summed up the point.

[carmen]

Can I quote you in my signature? PLEASE!!!! :thumb :D:Of course, though I know others have said it way better :lol

i think this signature worthy as well... though i understand it completely :D::P: :lol

[Dear2HIM]

A holy, "perfect in righteousness and justice" God, created man in His image. He also created an order -- one man and one woman. Man foolishly rejected this order and rebelled against God. According to Romans one, God gave them up to their foolishness and their lust. Homosexuality is one of many sins man is prone to, according to Roman 1. Sin must be repented of in order for salvation to be a fact in one's life. Without repentance, there is no justification. Those who persist in homosexuality are persisting in sin. And so is everyone who, as Paul says, persist in "all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; [those] full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they [which] are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, [the] violent, [the] proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, [those who are] disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful" -- we are all in there somewhere, Larry, until we come to a saving faith in Jesus, whose blood shed on the cross is the only remedy. The explanation, Larry, is sin and rebellion. The cure, Larry, is Jesus.

Don't you all think that was pretty good?

How can we give a detailed explaination for homosexuality? It is different depending on the person. Can you tell me why people steal when they have enough money to pay for it, or why people lie, or why some kids rebel?
It's impossible to explain it with a blanket statement and I'm glad RW didn't try to do it.

But the ROOT IS THE SAME, and the CURE (for sin) is the same :)

[Rebecki]

Okay, so we want to play numbers games. ANY illness can be fatal if not properly treated or caught soon enough. Even the flu for crying out loud. I don't know of any church that does every single thing for everybody. If you can name me one, I'd like to hear it.

So if I'm understanding correctly, Saddleback church is somehow in the WRONG for offering HIV testing for people who would like to be tested and in the process having the opportunity to minister to them?

Did I miss something here? :confused

I just wanted to point out with fact that STD's do kill.

I'm not going to get into the Rick Warren debate again. I've had my fill for now (however, my opinion hasn't changed). :):

Twelvesmaster, EXCELLENT explaination for people being homosexual. I think you summed it up with the term "God gave them up to their foolishness and their lust." Their lust (ie. sin) is what drives their homosexuality.

[roadrunner570]

I just wanted to point out with fact that STD's do kill.



Yes, and so can any other illness if not treated right, but that is not the point here. Its just a word game. I was addressing the fact that this church was being criticized for offering a ministry for potential HIV patients. And I have yet to hear any convincing argument as to why they are wrong for doing this.

[twelvesmaster]

exactly... and king and warren were not talking about how one is saved. if they were and he left out repentance - i'd agree. but you are arguing he left out an element of something they were not discussing...

...kinda like pointing out that someone left out an ingredient for a cake - when what they are discussin is how to grill a cheese sandwich...Harley I find your ability to draw analogies with regard to my statements to be severely lacking in clarity, development and cohesiveness of thought, the direct consequence being the induction of an acceleration of a subversion of the original intention of the statement.

;):

[twelvesmaster]

Thank you Dear2HIM. I was beginning to think I was reading a different Bible.

[twelvesmaster]

Twelvesmaster, EXCELLENT explaination for people being homosexual. I think you summed it up with the term "God gave them up to their foolishness and their lust." Their lust (ie. sin) is what drives their homosexuality.Thank you for seeing it too.:clap :clap :clap

[RhondaH]

Harley and Carmen, I wanna be just like you when I grow up! :bathbaby

I read the transcript and thought RW did a great job, too. As Carmen said, I'm not comparing him to Jesus, but it did remind me of when Jesus was asked about paying taxes and giving allegiance. He said to give what is Caesar's to Caesar and what is God's to God. He did not elaborate any further. His answer was true to the context in which it was asked.

Twelvesmaster, I completely see the point you're trying to make, but given the context of the question asked, to say that God has given them over to their lusts can explain a multitude of sins....not the one specifically stated. King asked why are homosexuals gay. I think Carmen made a very important point in saying that even though a person has accepted Jesus and no longer lives the lifestyle, some still struggle with the temptation of homosexual lusts. Has God given over a born again Christian to lust? Am I, a smoker, given over to my addiction to nicotine? Has God abandoned me in it because I haven't been able to quit yet? He that began a good work is faithful to complete it, but it's not done yet.

[Harley]

Harley I find your ability to draw analogies with regard to my statements to be severely lacking in clarity, development and cohesiveness of thought, the direct consequence being the induction of an acceleration of a subversion of the original intention of the statement.

;):
well, i cannot make it any clearer - you challenged us to find where warren mentioned "repentence" in the interview. I answered by saying he didn't mention a lot of things. you retorted that repentence is part of the salvation process (implying i suppose that warren therefore should have mentioned it and is somehow lacking because he didn't) - at this point you painted yourself into an impossible corner [another complex analogy?] because nowhere in the exchange do king and warren discuss the elements, the process, of salvation.

so - while king and warren discuss baking a cake, you attack warren for leaving out the cheese... say cheese! :D:

[twelvesmaster]

I retorted????

Throughout my replies I always felt I was engaging in conversation -- not retorts.

Go back and re-read all my posts -- they follow a simple line of reasoning, and if "context" is what you are honestly after, you must take them as a whole. I began by saying I was troubled by the interview -- and I still am -- even more so now because my thinking on what was troubling me is so mischaracterized and picked apart as to be unrecognizable in the end. I have done no painting into corners, I have merely explained in depth and as clearly as possible my understanding of Romans 1, which as I said before, was the perfect (in my view) response to Larry King's request for an "explanation." I'm sorry if you cannot, on your own behalf, except the explanation, but not surprised. This probably would have been the universal response (and worse) had Rick used it. As Heb. 4:12 puts it:
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. It stings, and sometimes people react with denials, scorn and even anger. I know because I used to be one of them.

I have never questioned Rick Warren's salvation or yours. I was simply giving my impression of his interview which in my view was watered down and lacking in power. Please twist no more of my words and jeer by calling my responses "retorts."

[carmen]

How can we give a detailed explaination for homosexuality? It is different depending on the person. Can you tell me why people steal when they have enough money to pay for it, or why people lie, or why some kids rebel?
It's impossible to explain it with a blanket statement and I'm glad RW didn't try to do it.
:nod Exactly my point, but you said it way better :lol. King tried to lay a trap by asking a question impossible to truly answer, and Warren didn't fall for it. IMHO, it was as simple as that.

[Ready4Jesus]

I have previously went on the website at Saddleback and was very concerned about their statement of Faith. However, I went back on the website today and I can tell you, that this change makes ALL the DIFFERENCE of my opinion. I have no problem now with their statement of faith.

Here is the link: http://www.saddleback.com/flash/believe2.html

[Harley]

I retorted????...Please twist no more of my words and jeer by calling my responses "retorts."
i simply meant you responded with an oppossing view - nothing more.

[Harley]

I have previously went on the website at Saddleback and was very concerned about their statement of Faith. However, I went back on the website today and I can tell you, that this change makes ALL the DIFFERENCE of my opinion. I have no problem now with their statement of faith.

Here is the link: http://www.saddleback.com/flash/believe2.html
:laugh i went this route once - i quoted their doctrinal statement as a testament to their orthodoxy... i was told it was a front, only put their to deceive people while they implamented their agenda behind the scenes...

[Harley]

twelvemaster,

OK - let's recap... :D:

you first posted that in the whole interview warren never mentioned repentence -
"BTW, I just went back and scanned the entire transcript. No form of the word "repent." Could somebody point it out to me?" to be exact.

you were correct, but i responded by asking -
"as for not using the word 'repent' - so what?

context-context-context...

i have not yet used it in this thread myself - what does that make me?
my point - in the context of the interview repentence never came up, so he never mentioned it.

to which you responded
"Repentance is an essential part of the plan of salvation."

that makes sense, and i agreed when I responded -
"exactly... and king and warren were not talking about how one is saved. if they were and he left out repentance - i'd agree. but you are arguing he left out an element of something they were not discussing..."

at that point i introduced my first unclarifying analogy -
"...kinda like pointing out that someone left out an ingredient for a cake - when what they are discussing is how to grill a cheese sandwich..."


now - you introduced warren's lack of mentioning repentence as something that bothered you. it bothered you because repentence is a part of the salvation process. - i understand that...

...but they were never talking about the salvation process so why does it bother you that he never mentioned repentence?

[Harley]

...I have never questioned Rick Warren's salvation or yours....
i understand this, and as far as i can tell no one thought you were - if something i posted led you to believe that - my apologies...

[Harley]

...I began by saying I was troubled by the interview -- and I still am -- even more so now because my thinking on what was troubling me is so mischaracterized and picked apart as to be unrecognizable in the end. I have done no painting into corners, I have merely explained in depth and as clearly as possible my understanding of Romans 1, which as I said before, was the perfect (in my view) response to Larry King's request for an "explanation."...
while i may not agree that this is "the perfect" response, i agree that using romans 1 would have been a more biblically thorough response.

i guess our disagreement really lies in how bothered, or lack-there-of, we are by his response... it was biblical as far as it went... but could have gone farther.