Investing

[CredendoVides]

Is it ok for a Christian to be an investor?

[fefeh]

I don't know why not

[frisian1970]

In what?
Some investments aren't that different then gambling.

[countmeworthy]

I have investments in mutual funds, IRA's & 401ks. The question is, will ~I~ be around heee :D: :laugh ....hhhheeee......heeee to use them???? Something tells me that we'll be outa here before I reach 60-65 which is 10-15 yrs from now! :clap :thumb

[happyhiker]

Nothing is wrong with preparing for the future. Common sense tells us to prepare financially for the future because we are living way past retirement age, unless you are like my mom who at 81 still works part time by choice! I put away 22% of my paycheck so I will have a real nice early retirement even if I don't get to use my investments due to the rapture!!!!

[carmen]

I think it's fine, and is really sound planning for the future.

If you're not familiar with him, Dave Ramsey is a Christian and has some excellent books out on money issues, such as investing. He also has a webpage and radio show. If you're looking for a place to get started, he may be a good place to start :):

[CredendoVides]

What if they aren't long-term investments? What about short and mid term investmens, and things like day trading?

[antitox]

I have investments in mutual funds, IRA's & 401ks. The question is, will ~I~ be around heee :D: :laugh ....hhhheeee......heeee to use them???? Something tells me that we'll be outa here before I reach 60-65 which is 10-15 yrs from now! :clap :thumb

I do hope you're right about being outta here.

BUT......it is wise to make sound investments. If things get rough, it's good to be liquid. Cash availablity is what has real power when the right opportunity comes along.

[theWord]

I don't see no difference from investments like buying stocks and gambling, your putting up money to get back more money and are risking it, no matter how you want to put it its pretty much the same thing. So if you consider gambling wrong than investing money in stocks has to go in the same category.

[Franklin]

Wouldn't the Parable of the Talents Jesus taught in Mt 25:14 shed some light on this issue? If investing were bad, then I'm completely lost on the message taught in this parable because the two guys who actually invested the talents of gold "and at once put [their] money to work" were praised and rewarded. The guy who hid his talent in the ground for fear (that it would end up being an enron stock) was called wicked and lazy.

Now I understand this parable might be metaphorical and not deal with finances specifically. But why would Jesus use a conflicting message to make a point.

Furthermore, investing in stocks and mutual funds etc is investing in business. The money is used by businessmen to expand and or grow, hence creating knew jobs and providing a means in which people can earn and provide for their families. Also, these businesses create products etc that we need (at least in many cases).

I think the issue might not be about investing per se, but investing in responsible businesses and investing with knowledge and understanding. Those who invest to make money without first doing any research as to what they're doing are, in my opinion, probably going to lose their money. Remember, the guy who hid his talent (but didn't lose it) was considered wicked and lazy. Imagine if he had invested it without first understading what he was doing and lost what he had.

[shkad14]

I would look at annuities. I just got my license to sell them after spending countless hours studting. They seem to be a great way to invest without a huge amount af risk...They are a hundred times more profitable than CD's or savings accounts. They usually have a garauntee rate of return around 4.5% with a much higher non garaunteed rate of return.

[pilgrimian]

I have investments in mutual funds, IRA's & 401ks. The question is, will ~I~ be around heee :D: :laugh ....hhhheeee......heeee to use them???? Something tells me that we'll be outa here before I reach 60-65 which is 10-15 yrs from now! :clap :thumb

Very smart.

We are to live as though He's coming back anytime...yet be prepared if He doesn't come back so soon. I think it's only wise to be prepared for the worst (His not coming back in our lifetime, though I wish He would...and He may very well...but I don't know for sure).

Blessings,
Matthew

[countmeworthy]

I have a question I've been pondering on...however...I hesitate to bring it up because WE ALL NEED the LORD's guidance & not natural man's opinion. But taking a chance, I'll throw it out anyway...

With the concern of the stock market going belly-up as the day of the AC approaches, I ~wonder~ and that's all it is, if moving stocks into gold??? Now, that said, I also know the gold investors would love for us to do that.

Anyway, it's something I'm praying about... I don't want to lose my life's savings before the Lord returns for us. I want to invest my $$ wisely for His Kingdom.

[Mommy2KandM]

What if they aren't long-term investments? What about short and mid term investmens, and things like day trading?

Day trading is often a full time job. It is how you make a living usually. Buying and selling.. just like any store does. They buy for less and plan on selling for more. Day trading is riskier than long term investments.. and often the day trader gets addicted to the rush. So that is something to be aware of.. it can be addicting, just like anything else. God does not desire for anything but Him to be in charge of our minds and bodies.

I don't think there is anything unbiblical about investing. We invest. The sin comes in when one gets greedy with their money and all they think about is making money to buy bigger and better things. Greed is the sin, not investing.

[IbeleiveinJesus]

What if they aren't long-term investments? What about short and mid term investmens, and things like day trading?

Depends, I don't think there is a solid rule here

If someone is making sound informed trades with a short term horizon, I don't think there is an issue here.. Lots of people do this..

If someone is engaging in behavior that is more akin to a gambling addiction, they might want to examine what they are doing..

In regards to the original post, I think that while we hope to be Raptured and be with our Lord soon, no one knows when that will occur, and imho, it is irresponsibe not to save and invest for own old age and retirement, as not doing so, puts the financial burden of our old age onto our loved ones, or the state.

-Ted

[theWord]

Ok than everybody made some good points about investing, I agree with some of them, so if risking your money on stocks to make more money later is ok, than a serious minded gambler who bets on sports for a living is in the same category too, yet everyone calls gambling on sports or whatever else a sin. Betting on a sports game would be like putting money into a very short term stock, your putting up money with the anticipation to make profit and your putting it at risk. So if anyone can distinguish the difference between investing in stocks and gambling do so tell, besides that it is a much smarter business decision or that your helping businesses succeed, when it comes down to it you don't actually know whos hands that money is going too. I'm just saying hey if you can consider doing a little investing in stocks, etc. than gambling should be ok too. I know your going to say but gambling is addictive and so on but isn't investing in stocks as well. All I know is if I put some money in and my stock went up and I made some money, I'd be putting all that money the next day on the next stock. If I lose my money I want to put up more to make it back. So take that for what it is.

[countmeworthy]

I rarely touch my investments. I'm not compulsive on buying, trading or selling. I look at my quarterly statements & so far I haven't lost very much at all over the years. (But I ain't getting rich either.)

[IbeleiveinJesus]

so if if risking your money on stocks to make more money later is ok, than a serious minded gambler who bets on sports for a living is in the same category too, yet everyone calls gambling on sports or whatever else a sin

Whose everyone?.. I don't necessarily, I've participated in a football pool in the office, and I didn't consider it sinful... It certainly can be sinful.. but if someone would rather play low stakes poker with $50 than play a round of Golf, I'm not so sure they are sinning... If someone is gambling away their childs college fund however, that is a different story..

Betting on a sports game would be like putting money into a very short term stock, your putting up money with the anticipation to make profit and your putting it at risk. So if anyone can distinguish the difference between investing in stocks and gambling do so tell

There is one huge difference between investing and gambling.. and that is when you invest, you own a part of something, and expect it to appreciate in value, or make profits which are returned to you.. I might own only 1/1,000,000th of Pepsico, but it is still a piece of something real.. Not true with gambling where you own nothing tangible, and are only wagering on an outcome.

You may have a point when it comes to options trading or that kind of thing though...

when it comes down to it you don't actually know whos hands that money is going too

Sure you do, these are public companies. Who the officers are, as well as the Board of Directors is all public information.

I'm just saying hey if you can consider doing a little investing in stocks, etc. than gambling should be ok too.

Even accepting all your previous premises, which I don't, the historical return of the S&P 500 is over 10%, not so for gambling, where the odds are against you. To say then that investing in stocks is the same as gambling simply doesn't hold water when you look at the history of investments in the market.

I know your going to say but gambling is addictive and so on but isn't investing in stocks as well. All I know is if I put some money in and my stock went up and I made some money, I'd be putting all that money the next day on the next stock. If I lose my money I want to put up more to make it back. So take that for what it is.

I have investments which I consider well balanced for my age, I look at my statements montly or quarterly when they arrive in the mail, but that's about it.. I hardly think I engage in behavior symptomatic of an addiction..

I'd think a significant majority of adults in the US have some holdings in stocks. To say that we are all somehow addicted to investing is sort of silly...

-Ted

[theWord]

Bro your getting into too many specifics your not understanding my points. Yes I understand that investing money into stocks is much much smarter and has more to it than just throwing away your dollars on a sports game. Understand what I am trying to say though before you get into this whole debate of how investing money into stocks is much different. First when you put money into a stock are you actually labouring for your money ? No. Are you risking that money ? Yes. Are you risking it to make profit ? Yes.You can go ahead and tell me all the different ways you invest your money and how detailed it is and how smart it is and what better odds there are. When it comes down to it you are putting up money without doing any labour, unless you consider hiring a stock broker labour, and your are risking it to make profit. RIght ? Ok than, gambling is the exact same concept just without all those little details, Get my point ? I don't think its a sin but if you consider gambling a sin than you should consider investing in stocks in the same category. And as for you know where your money is going, Well my friend I know a litte about business and you might be surprised where your money is actually going and what it is being used for. Behind the scenes. Now you can tell me all you want about how investing is so much different than gambling, yet its the same procedure and the same outcome, Risk my money to make some money.

[IbeleiveinJesus]

Understand what I am trying to say though before you get into this whole debate of how investing money into stocks is much different. First when you put money into a stock are you actually labouring for your money ? No

I disagree. You are laboring. There is research and thought put into investing. I consider that labor.

Are you risking that money ? Yes.

K, so what, there is risk in farming too...

Are you risking it to make profit ? Yes

Again, so what, same thing applies to farming..

When it comes down to it you are putting up money without doing any labour

Again I disagree with your premise

Ok than, gambling is the exact same concept just without all those little details

But according to you, should the labor part be subcontracted out, so is farming..

Get my point ?

No, I still don't think gambling and investing are as analogous as you do..

but if you consider gambling a sin than you should consider investing in stocks in the same category

No, for all the reasons listed above, and in my earlier posts, I think this argument is flawed..

Well my friend I know a litte about business and you might be surprised where your money is actually going and what it is being used for

I have an BA in Economics, an MBA, and 15 years of experience in the workplace, and as an investor.. so I happen to know a scooch too.. but I happen to disagree with you... Again, if you are investing, the Officers and Boards of a company is public information, as are the Financials and SEC filings.

Now you can tell me all you want about how investing is so much different than gambling, yet its the same procedure and the same outcome

Again as I said it's not, and you haven't addressed the arguments I made other to ignore them.

Risk my money to make some money

So starting a business is gambling to? I just fundamentally disagree here..

-Ted

[Franklin]

I find it simply amazing that investing (in stocks or whatever) can be compared to gambling. I assume if someone bought stock without any idea of what he was doing and "let it ride" on Google or whatever, an argument could be made. But investing in such a manner will only reap one thing: insolvency!

Oddly, those who continue to condemn investing in stocks have yet to address the parable in Matthew regarding the Talents and how the "good" guys actually invested thesetalents to earn a profit while the third guy was rebuked as being lazy and wicked for NOT investing his.

I think the sad aspect of this discussion is the lack of investment understanding we in this country have as a whole. We learn nothing in high school on the matter and barely scratch the surface in college. (I have a B.S. in business)

For those who are so gung-ho AGAINST investing I would urge you to cancel your insurance policies. After all, how do you think the insurance companies stay in business? Certainly it would be hypocritical to continue using insurance if investing in stocks is such a bad thing.

[theWord]

Ted you made some good points again, I'm not here to debate the subject you clearly feel that investing is not the same as gambling. I respect your opinion. As I said though I have no problem with investing money into stocks/businesses etc.Well gambling also consists of hard work and research as well than studying different odds/stats lines and so on, oh wait up kind of like investing money in stocks, So we can agree gambling also has its labor if you consider that labour as you do. So can you tell me without comparing all the pros and cons. When you put money into a stock you expect to make money back right ? And when you do it you are also taking the chance that you might lose that money right ? Ok I'm sure you agree with me on that. That is my whole point, instead of trying to prove to me how wrong I am, just understand that I am trying to tell you that when you gamble it has the same outcome and same risk as does putting some money in a stock, That said me personally I have actually thought about investing some cash in stocks. So again I have nothing against you or anything with anyone who does this for a living/stock brokers etc. Unless you can tell me that investing money in stocks is not risking your money for profit, You won't change my mind on this matter. Yes you can say buying and selling or owning your own business is the exact same, your risking your money. But can you honestly tell me actually buying products and selling them in your business and actually doing physical labour for yourself is the same as risking some money and letting someone else do your work, while you sit and wait for a profit. I'll let God judge that.

[theWord]

Just to clear it up. Franklin I have no ill will against investing money into stocks. And by the way a lot of serious gamblers also put in very hard work researching similar things as do stock brokers. Just thought i'd clear that up.

[Rodney]

So the argument goes "investing in stocks is supposed to be wrong because it is gambling and gambling is wrong"?

But how do we know that gambling is wrong? Are there bible verses that tell us that gambling is wrong? I'm not aware of any but someone feel free to enlighten me if there are.

Rather I think that gambling is wrong because it is UNWISE and Christians should not be unwise (or so a case could be made from the bible I believe).

So why is gambling unwise then? Gambling is unwise because the official average return on your gambling investment is less that one dollar for every dollar you put in. For example here in Australia I believe Casinos and the like are required by law to gaurantee that their poker machines return an average of 80cents for every dollar gambled. Hence gambling is an unwise use of money. (You might say the average interest you earn on poker machines is minus twenty percent).

What about "gambling" on the stock market. It is quite possible to find investments whose average return is positive not negative and hence for whom investing in is not necesarily unwise.

There may be some element of risk in investing but I don't think that you can argue from the bible that risk taking per se is wrong. Everything you do in life involves some element of risk. Every time I get into my car and drive to church I take the risk that I will be killed in a car crash. Every time I eat breakfast I take a risk that some nutter has poisoned my cereal packet. Not much in life doesn't involve some element of risk. The question is how much risk is wise to take. I don't think investing is wrong simply because there is a non zero probability of things going wrong. I think each investment has to be looked at on a case by case basis to see if it is a wise investment or not.

[Ready4Jesus]

So the argument goes "investing in stocks is supposed to be wrong because it is gambling and gambling is wrong"?

But how do we know that gambling is wrong? Are there bible verses that tell us that gambling is wrong? I'm not aware of any but someone feel free to enlighten me if there are.

Rather I think that gambling is wrong because it is UNWISE and Christians should not be unwise (or so a case could be made from the bible I believe).

So why is gambling unwise then? Gambling is unwise because the official average return on your gambling investment is less that one dollar for every dollar you put in. For example here in Australia I believe Casinos and the like are required by law to gaurantee that their poker machines return an average of 80cents for every dollar gambled. Hence gambling is an unwise use of money. (You might say the average interest you earn on poker machines is minus twenty percent).

What about "gambling" on the stock market. It is quite possible to find investments whose average return is positive not negative and hence for whom investing in is not necesarily unwise.

There may be some element of risk in investing but I don't think that you can argue from the bible that risk taking per se is wrong. Everything you do in life involves some element of risk. Every time I get into my car and drive to church I take the risk that I will be killed in a car crash. Every time I eat breakfast I take a risk that some nutter has poisoned my cereal packet. Not much in life doesn't involve some element of risk. The question is how much risk is wise to take. I don't think investing is wrong simply because there is a non zero probability of things going wrong. I think each investment has to be looked at on a case by case basis to see if it is a wise investment or not.

I"m not even going to imagine I'm smart enough for the gambling/stock debate. However with gambling, there are so many people addicted to it, and lots of families destroyed by it, I would say that the fruits of this pasttime can not be considered good. Test things by what type of fruit it bears and I see nothing good growing from the gambling tree.

[blitzkreig]

You should prepare you heart so that if we leave tonight you have no concerns ...

You should prepare your wallet so that if we were to stay for another 100 years you would have no concerns ...

In terms of returns on my investments so far ... my heart is WAY out ahead of my wallet ... :doh

[Ready4Jesus]

You should prepare you heart so that if we leave tonight you have no concerns ...

You should prepare your wallet so that if we were to stay for another 100 years you would have no concerns ...

In terms of returns on my investments so far ... my heart is WAY out ahead of my wallet ... :doh

:heh
I can relate to that!

[Franklin]

Hmmmmm Interesting......!!!!!!!!!! Is gambling itself a sin? Or is it entertainment? If someone CHOOSES to spend his or her own money gambling, couldn't this be considered pure entertainment if there is no addiction or loss of control? Couldn't this argument be made with many things? Eating isn't a sin, but gluttony is.

[blitzkreig]

Franklin Christian liberty gives us the right to do most anything. However Christian conscience says to us that we need to consider how that will reflect on our witness ... and or how someone else without our knowledge of liberty may be effected if they think that is how we, as mature Christians, act.

So the simple answer is yes and no.

:B:

[Mommy2KandM]

Hmmmmm Interesting......!!!!!!!!!! Is gambling itself a sin? Or is it entertainment? If someone CHOOSES to spend his or her own money gambling, couldn't this be considered pure entertainment if there is no addiction or loss of control? Couldn't this argument be made with many things? Eating isn't a sin, but gluttony is.


Exactly. Though I understand not all Christians agree on this issue. As this has been discussed here before. But I don't think gambling in and of itself is sin. Addiction to it is. Spending money you don't have is, etc..... But laying $20 on a table instead of spending it on 2 movies tickets.. that is entertainment. What is the difference?

[Franklin]

Yeah, but that all depends on what movies are "acceptable." Then again, let's just end the topic now before we go down THAT avenue.

[IbeleiveinJesus]

When you put money into a stock you expect to make money back right ? And when you do it you are also taking the chance that you might lose that money right ?

I agree with all that, however, there are many things we do on a daily basis where we weigh risk vs return, and I don't consider any decision where risk vs return is a factor gambling. Is risk vs return a factor in both gambling as well as investing sure it is, but there are other factors that make investing and gambling distinct beasts, at least imho.

So again I have nothing against you or anything with anyone who does this for a living/stock brokers etc.

I'm not a professional broker... tooo much stress in that occupation :D:

Yes you can say buying and selling or owning your own business is the exact same, your risking your money. But can you honestly tell me actually buying products and selling them in your business and actually doing physical labour for yourself is the same as risking some money and letting someone else do your work, while you sit and wait for a profit. I'll let God judge that.

I didn't say it was the exact same, it is different from investing, and different from gambling. My point was merely that there is a risk / return equation in starting a new business, as there is in many things people do. So if the risk vs return factor is the major determinant in whether you classify something as gambling, I think there are a great many things that would fall into that category, which are unreasonable. Hence I think the weight you lend to that factor is too great.

Though, we can agree to disagree on this.. :):

-Ted

[CredendoVides]

Is it right for me to be investing my money when there are people in our own country, right now this very moment, who are starving to death, or who have no place to live?

[Mommy2KandM]

Is it right for me to be investing my money when there are people in our own country, right now this very moment, who are starving to death, or who have no place to live?


Perhaps investing with a commitment to give all or X amount of your profits would be beneficial to those in need. :):

[Not by Sight]

I find it to be disturbing when I see families (parents) who are so intent upon building their little retirement empire that they will not reach out and help their struggling grown children. I believe the Godly model of family is a more old-fashioned one where the extended faily lives together and supports one another throughout all stages of life. I think our capitalist society has broken that down and created an atmosphere of "every man for himself" even amongst close family members. While I do advocate saving and planning, I also think people with the means should help more with their adult chidlren as they struggle to become independent.

[InigoMontoya]

I find it to be disturbing when I see families (parents) who are so intent upon building their little retirement empire that they will not reach out and help their struggling grown children. I believe the Godly model of family is a more old-fashioned one where the extended faily lives together and supports one another throughout all stages of life. I think our capitalist society has broken that down and created an atmosphere of "every man for himself" even amongst close family members. While I do advocate saving and planning, I also think people with the means should help more with their adult chidlren as they struggle to become independent.

I'm sure nearly everyone would find it dishearting to witness a family who cares more about their retirement "empire" than their children. Grown children are just that though, grown ups... Some times they have to be allowed to stand on their own. Retirements an expensive option nowadays, can we really pry into someones finances so much that we can judge if they're trying to build a comfortable-secure retirement versus sheer greed?

[Franklin]

Is it right for me to be investing my money when there are people in our own country, right now this very moment, who are starving to death, or who have no place to live?

Who is starving to death in America?

[architectlink]

I think it's fine, and is really sound planning for the future.

If you're not familiar with him, Dave Ramsey is a Christian and has some excellent books out on money issues, such as investing. He also has a webpage and radio show. If you're looking for a place to get started, he may be a good place to start :):

I'm also signed up to do the Peace University with Dave Ramsey...I've heard great things about his financial seminars.

Any other comments? I want to get others together to hear this advice from our family.