Free Will and Predestination--Can Both Exist? [Archive]

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Enlightenment

October 25th, 2005, 11:11 AM

Hootmon

October 25th, 2005, 11:17 AM

Free Will and Predestination--Can Both Exist? Yes, IMO. Its a matter of Point of View.

So, any comments? Does God use predestination for a select few that MUST fulfil prophecies while most everyone else have to make up their own mind?It doesnt seem like 'pre-destination' so much as direct influence in the examples you cited.

Enlightenment

October 25th, 2005, 11:48 AM

It doesnt seem like 'pre-destination' so much as direct influence in the examples you cited.

Yes, I suppose predestination is a salvation question, not a deterministic question.

seeHimsoon

October 25th, 2005, 12:41 PM

I'm no scholar, just a regular foot soldier. But as I read the bible, it looks like both are true. So I just believe that both are true, even though I do not understand how that can be. I believe God is good, gracious, merciful, offering salvation, in control of all things, yet men are accountable for thier choices. Is this anti- intellectual to think both can be true at the same time? I think God is bigger than our ability to understand this, we must trust Him by faith. The bible teaches both.

LaMontre

October 25th, 2005, 01:13 PM

I'm no scholar, just a regular foot soldier. But as I read the bible, it looks like both are true. So I just believe that both are true, even though I do not understand how that can be.

It is actually a matter of perspectives just as Hootmon said.

God declares the end from the beginning and He is totally soveriegn. And so His perspective is that we are saved from the foundation of the world and it is a done deal.

We however, come to a point in our time where we suddenly repent and believe. But if we are honest, we're not sure why or how, or what makes our experience different from our unsaved neighbor.

But to really understand predestination we must put aside our perspective (which is based only on our experience) and try to see Gods. When we read scripture with that perspective, we realize it is really all Him. But we have to put aside our temptation to read according to our experience....not that our perspective has no application in reading and stuying scripture, but we must try to strike a balance.

Some seem to achieve that balance better than others? :heh

LaMontre

October 25th, 2005, 01:27 PM

There are Bible verses apparently supporting both positions. Is it possible that some people are predestined while most are not?

It seems clear to me that God's prophecy must be fulfilled. Therefore, I would argue that God will predestinate certain people to bring these prophecies to fruition.

1. Herod and Pontius Pilate had no free will in the matter of assuring that Christ was crucified.

Acts 4:

26 The kings of the earth took their stand,
And the rulers were gathered together
Against the LORD and against His Christ.’ [from Psalm 2]

27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

2. Mary had no choice but to be the mother of Jesus. Matthew 1:

...an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”
22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,

Judas had no choice but to betray Jesus. Peter had no choice but to deny Christ after Jesus prophesied that he would deny him three times before the rooster crowed. I could make this list a mile long with specific examples, but I think you get the idea.

Does this mean that EVERYONE has a predestined, determined life? I don't think so. I think everyone who hears the Word of God can accept it or reject it.

People can accept the calling of the Holy Spirit and decide to believe. Romans 10:

12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

Romans 1:
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

Titus 2:
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
(note that we have free will to deny ungodliness and live soberly)

People can reject the good news of the Gospel.
Stephen's sermon to the Jews in Acts 7:

51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, 53 who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”

Romans 1:
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools...

So, any comments? Does God use predestination for a select few that MUST fulfil prophecies while most everyone else have to make up their own mind?

Choice is based upon having one.....

For example, Mary had the choice to refuse of course (I mean strictly speaking, because the truth is she didn't refuse and so we have no comparative data) but obviously, if an angel shows up next to your bed and gives you that choice, how could you possibly refuse? She did have questions, but she did not allow that to dissuade her, and truthfully, we cannot speak authoritatively to how much God had to do with her heart condition, which led her to accept so willingly.

After all, the bible says that God hardened Pharaohs heart, right?

Also, she was the only one (as far as we know) to ever be given the choice....did God have a second choice? Is God really that random?

And here is another couple of quandries regarding salvation;

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicode'mus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicode'mus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Now, however you may interpret these verses all of this is completely out of your control. There is no "believe and be born again" here. In fact, that one believes at all could be said to be an after effect the way it is listed in vs 16.:noidea

Mat 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the wayside.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Who determines who is good ground and who isn't? Obviously God knows, but how is this determined? Is it that some have experiences which preclude them from having good soil? Considering that salvation is by grace through faith, and that grace has to be purely grace and there are no works in it, we have to ask why does God prepare some soil for salvation, and some not?

Just a few thoughts that I have pondered on this topic.

Enlightenment

October 26th, 2005, 11:08 AM

Considering that salvation is by grace through faith, and that grace has to be purely grace and there are no works in it, we have to ask why does God prepare some soil for salvation, and some not?

When you think of it in the manner you described all of us that have been redeemed ought to thank God day and night for saving them. Truly awesome.

Dear2HIM

October 26th, 2005, 11:12 AM

When you think of it in the manner you described all of us that have been redeemed ought to thank God day and night for saving them. Truly awesome.

:nod Yes, since I have been growing in understanding this more, my gratitude and humility has increased. Truly awesome! :):

AJSHOPE

October 26th, 2005, 11:16 AM

We actually had a sermon about this in church a month or so ago and basically our pastor's point of view is that God does not predestine specific people, but groups. For instance the Bible says that the Jews will be saved, but obviously not every single Jew is going to believe (even after the rapture occurs).

It kind of parellels when the Jews were out in the desert wandering around for 40 years. The Jews were getting the Promised Land, but that didn't mean that every single Jew that was alive at the time was going to see the Promised Land.

Now in terms of people being predestined for certain prophecies to be fulfilled. I don't know for sure, but I think God knows what He'll do regardless of what happens. This is tough because some people believe that God doesn't know exactly what will happen, but that He knows everything that can happen and has a response ready for anything. I guess we'll just have to ask when we get to Heaven.

blitzkreig

October 26th, 2005, 11:29 AM

Enlightenment did you ever finish that Jonathan Edwards book?

Very ... well ... enlightening ...:B:

AnyDayNow

October 26th, 2005, 11:33 AM

Free Will and Predestination--Can Both Exist?

Yes. Free will exists in our repentance, which is not part of our Salvation, but is a prerequisite to it. Once God foresaw our repentance, He Acted before the foundation of the world and Implemented our Salvation. All because He foreknew the CHOICE we would make. That is, our reponse to His Call to Repentance (Acts 17:30,31). After that Foreknowledge, the rest follows just as Paul outlines it in Romans 8:28-30. Everything after the Foreknowledge is spoken of as past tense by Paul.

But we still have to repent. Jesus, John the Baptist, Peter and Paul all made that VERY clear. It is the only act of free will we have concerning Salvation. Without it, there is no Salvation possible.

LaMontre

October 26th, 2005, 12:33 PM

Yes. Free will exists in our repentance, which is not part of our Salvation, but is a prerequisite to it. Once God foresaw our repentance, He Acted before the foundation of the world and Implemented our Salvation. All because He foreknew the CHOICE we would make. That is, our reponse to His Call to Repentance (Acts 17:30,31). After that Foreknowledge, the rest follows just as Paul outlines it in Romans 8:28-30. Everything after the Foreknowledge is spoken of as past tense by Paul.

But we still have to repent. Jesus, John the Baptist, Peter and Paul all made that VERY clear. It is the only act of free will we have concerning Salvation. Without it, there is no Salvation possible.

What is the difference between a person who heard Johns or Peters message to repent and didn't, and one who heard the same message in the same moment, and did? Thats the question predestination answers. Why is it that some hearts (soils) are prepared and some aren't? Thats what predestination answers for us, and the answer is simple, those elect from the foundation of the world, according to Gods decree, are prepared to hear and repent.

The only random element (seemingly) is the sower sowing the word. The soil onto which it falls (IF it is to take root) is prepared by God himself and takes root, not by chance, but by design. Therefore the fruit (30, 60, 100) that is born by the believer God also gets credit for, because he first prepared the soil from which is sprouts.

Without that, there is no salvation possible.

Enlightenment

October 26th, 2005, 12:41 PM

Enlightenment did you ever finish that Jonathan Edwards book?

Very ... well ... enlightening ...:B:

I can't read it. I've tried several time in the past week but the link doesn't work anymore.

Does it work for you?

www.jonathanedwards.com (http://www.jonathanedwards.com)

LaMontre

October 26th, 2005, 12:52 PM

When you think of it in the manner you described all of us that have been redeemed ought to thank God day and night for saving them. Truly awesome.

Exactly the effect it should have. Amen! :thumb

Also I think, arminian doctrine can have the opposite effect.

But lets also admit that many take this doctrine way too far and forget about our responsibility as believers. Often many do stop sharing their faith, which as you might have already concluded, is how the seed is strewn about?

We do have our perspective to take into consideration here, and we do obey from the heart, and love the brethren and act on the word of God as it is revealed to us. To me, we only truly have free will after God has birthed us to see His kingdom, upon which our will is set free from bondage to sin. It is then that we begin to make real choices that do effect eternity.

And it is then that our responsibility, and the consequences of our choices become far more grave than ever they were in our ignorance. Not that we risk our salvation, which has been eternally secured by Christ, but we risk other things which become important to us only after the new birth (because they are impoertant to our Lord Jesus). Things that have to do with obedience and love and worship and fellowship.

AnyDayNow

October 26th, 2005, 01:04 PM

What is the difference between a person who heard Johns or Peters message to repent and didn't, and one who heard the same message in the same moment, and did?...

God Foresaw them both (as he did/does everything else that happens). In the case of True Repentance, He knew it and effected Salvation (what we see in today's real time as Regeneration by the Holy Spirit, the "fruit" of repentance that John the Baptist sought). You'll jumble up your brain trying to figure out God's Attributes and How He foresees everything. God has no need to Foresee His Own Actions. He is Self-Aware. It occured to me a long time ago that God Foreseeing my repentance compelled Him to effect my Salvation long before I was born...before the earth was even formed. I'm just going on evidence from the Word.

Luke 13:3-5... 3. "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. 4. "Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were {worse} culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? 5. "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." (NASB)

Where in the passage above does Jesus say, "You must let Me make you repent"? The meaning is clear. "Irresistable Grace" is VERY resistable...just don't repent. There will be no Grace and you will perish, just as Jesus said.

LaMontre

October 26th, 2005, 01:13 PM

God Foresaw them both (as he did/does everything else that happens). In the case of True Repentance, He knew it and effected Salvation (what we see in today's real time as Regeneration by the Holy Spirit, the "fruit" of repentance that John the Baptist sought). You'll jumble up your brain trying to figure out God's Attributes and How He foresees everything. God has no need to Foresee His Own Actions. He is Self-Aware. It occured to me a long time ago that God Foreseeing my repentance compelled Him to effect my Salvation long before I was born...before the earth was even formed. I'm just going on evidence from the Word.

Well, I don't disagree at all. Because foreknowledge, and decreeing from the foundation of the world what that foreknowledge revealed, really amounts to the same doctrine of predestination.

Prophecy itself is basically rendered impossible if man can make a choice that would contradict Gods decree in prophecy. Prophecy is not the result of predicting the future (something God condemns), it is rather the resut of Gods decree. He declares the end from the beginning.

:thumb

LaMontre

October 26th, 2005, 01:22 PM

Where in the passage above does Jesus say, "You must let Me make you repent"? The meaning is clear. "Irresistable Grace" is VERY resistable...just don't repent. There will be no Grace and you will perish, just as Jesus said.

Yes, you're right. Acts 7:51 says they do always "resist the Holy Ghost".

The question is why? The answer is predestination. In fact it is the only answer that makes any sense.

See I do not say man has no free will choice, I say man has only the choice God gives him. This is best illustrated in Romans 9 where Paul says that God used a hardened heart to accomplish his ends, and in fact made certain that heart remained hard, even in the face the obvious. This is also illustrated in Jesus crucifixion. God only needed to allow the hard heart of sinful men to follow their natural course. But he also spoke to them in parables to assure that their hearts remained hard. (Matthew 13)

But to reverse that requires an act of God (which Jesus called the new birth). Without which, according to Romans 3, and John 3 (ye MUST be born again), man is precluded from desiring or seeking God. This is where election becomes a crucial doctrine to understand.

[edit]sorry I had to edit this 150,000 times to get it right! :lol

AnyDayNow

October 26th, 2005, 01:29 PM

Well, I don't disagree at all...Prophecy itself is basically rendered impossible if man can make a choice...

Exactly. It is NOT making that choice which is also a part of man's free-will. The Will of the Father is that ALL would be saved. BUT, that Salvation is impossible without repentance. All I'm trying to do is get people to realize that repentance isn't a part of Salvation (it leads to it...):

2 Corinthians 7:10. For the sorrow that is according to {the will} {of} God produces a repentance without regret, {leading} to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death. (NAS)

And that God indeed does the Calling for Repentance, but it is our choice also to not repent. I believe (and I think you do also) that once True Repentance has been effected, Salvation is not only a sure deal, but an already been done deal also. We have to balance what we see here, in real time, with what God Sees, which is different. Yet we must have Knowledge of our sins before we can repent, and God does that also, by the work of the Holy Spirit. The only thing He doesn't/can't do is make us repent.

LaMontre

October 26th, 2005, 01:51 PM

Exactly. It is NOT making that choice which is also a part of man's free-will. The Will of the Father is that ALL would be saved. BUT, that Salvation is impossible without repentance. All I'm trying to do is get people to realize that repentance isn't a part of Salvation (it leads to it...):

I am not sure what you mean here? If God decreed from the foundation of the world who was to be saved (whether by foreknowledge or not, matters not) then that is a prophecy about YOU and ME and ALL THE ELECT which cannot be controverted by man. Maybe I am misunderstanding you here?

And that God indeed does the Calling for Repentance, but it is our choice also to not repent.

I think you're right, but I don't really believe salvation relies on repentance, I rather believe that repentance is a result of salvation. And so, I have to first be given that choice by being born again "to see"....

(this might lead us to a discussion about what Jesus really meant when he said "you must be born of water and of the Spirit"?)

...at ay rate, one cannot repent of unbelief if one is not first given a revelation "in their heart" that God has raised Jesus from the dead. (The other requirement to be saved.)

I believe (and I think you do also) that once True Repentance has been effected, Salvation is not only a sure deal, but an already been done deal also. We have to balance what we see here, in real time, with what God Sees, which is different. Yet we must have Knowledge of our sins before we can repent, and God does that also, by the work of the Holy Spirit. The only thing He doesn't/can't do is make us repent.

No I agree he does not make us repent....but revealing to you're heart that God has raised Jesus from the dead (being enlightened) is a tall order, and not something easily denied. This (to me) is what is meant by "irresistable grace". Not that man has no choice, but that the choice is made so clear that, given the choice, the elect will choose Christ everytime. Like with Paul on the road to Damascus....I believe all the elect are "knocked off their (high) horse" in a similar manner.

But I don't disagree with you on much else.:thumb

Hootmon

October 26th, 2005, 01:57 PM

Interesting...

blitzkreig

October 26th, 2005, 02:56 PM

I can't read it. I've tried several time in the past week but the link doesn't work anymore.

Does it work for you?

www.jonathanedwards.com (http://www.jonathanedwards.com) No I think you must have broken it ... :B:

But lucky me ... I have saved a copy of the whole internet to my hard disk ... ;):

PM me an email address and I will zip it up for you.

:faint

blitzkreig

October 26th, 2005, 03:01 PM

Most people say that they believe in "free will." Do we have any idea what that means? I believe that you will find a great deal of superstition on this subject. The will is saluted as the grand power of the human soul which is completely free to direct our lives. But from what is it free? And what is its power?

THE MYTH OF CIRCUMSTANTIAL FREEDOM

No one denies that man has a will — that is, a faculty of choosing what he wishes to say, do, and think. But have you ever reflected on the pitiful weakness of your will? Though you have the ability to make a decision, you do not have the power to carry out your purpose. Will may devise a course of action, but will has no power to execute its intention.

Joseph’s brothers hated him. They sold him to be a slave. But God used their actions to make him a ruler over themselves. They chose their course of action to harm Joseph. But God in His power directed events for Joseph’s good. He said, "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good" (Gen 50:20).

And how many of your decisions are miserably thwarted? You may choose to be a millionaire, but God’s providence is likely to prevent it. You may decide to be a scholar, but bad health, an unstable home, or lack of finances may frustrate your will. You choose to go on a vacation, but an automobile accident may send you to the hospital instead.

By saying that your will is free, we certainly do not mean that it determines the course of your life. You did not choose the sickness, sorrow, war, and poverty that have spoiled your happiness. You did not choose to have enemies. If man’s will is so potent, why not choose to live on and on? But you must die. The major factors which shape your life cannot thank your will. You did not select your social status, color, intelligence, etc.

Any sober reflection on your experience will produce the conclusion, "A man’s heart deviseth his way: but THE LORD DIRECTETH his steps" (Pro 16:9). Rather than extolling the human will, we ought to humbly praise the Lord whose purposes shape our lives. As Jeremiah confessed, "O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps" (Jer 10:23).

Yes, you may choose what you want, and you may plan what you will do; but your will is not free to accomplish anything contrary to the purposes of God. Neither have you any power to reach your goals but that which God allows you. The next time you are so enamored with your own will, remember Jesus’ parable about the rich man. The wealthy man said, "This I WILL do: I WILL pull down all my barns, and build greater: and there I WILL bestow all my fruits and my goods. . . But God said unto him. Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee" (Luke 12:18-21). He was free to plan but not free to accomplish; so it is with you.

THE MYTH OF ETHICAL FREEDOM

But freedom of the will is cited as an important factor in making MORAL decisions. Man’s will is said to be free to choose between good and evil. But again we must ask, from what is it free? And what is man’s will free to choose?

The will of man is his power to choose between alternatives. Your will does decide your actions from a number of options. You have the faculty to direct your own thoughts, words, and deeds. Your decisions are not formed by an outside force, but from within yourself. No man is compelled to act contrary to his will, nor forced to say what he does not wish. Your will guides your actions.
Yet this does not mean that the power to decide is free from all influence. You make choices based on your understanding, your feelings, your likes and dislikes, and your appetites. In other words, your will is not free from yourself! Your choices are determined by your own basic character. The will is not independent of your nature, but the slave of it. Your choices do not shape your character, but your character guides your choices. The will is quite partial to what you know, feel, love, and desire. You always choose on the basis of your disposition. according to the condition of your heart.

It is just for this reason that your will is NOT free to do good. Your will is the servant of your heart, and your heart is evil. "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that EVERY imagination of the thoughts of his heart was ONLY evil CONTINUALLY" (Gen 6:5). "There is NONE that doeth good, no, not one" (Rom 3:12). No power forces man to sin contrary to his will, but the descendants of Adam are so evil that they always choose the evil.

Your decisions are molded by your understanding, and the Bible says of all men, ‘And their foolish heart was darkened" (Rom 1:21). Man can only be righteous when he desires to have fellowship with God, but, "There is NONE that seeketh after God" (Rom 3:11). Your appetites crave sin, and thus you cannot choose God. To choose good is contrary to human nature. If you chose to obey God, it would be the result of external compulsion. But you are free to choose and hence your choice is enslaved to your own evil nature.

If fresh meat and tossed salad were placed before a hungry lion, he would choose the flesh This is because his nature dictates the selection It is just so with man. The will of man is free from outside force, but not from the bias of human nature. That bias is against God. Man’s power of decision are free to choose whatever the human heart dictates; therefore there is no possibility of a man choosing to please God without prior work of divine grace.

What most people mean by free will is the idea that man is by nature neutral and therefore able to choose either good or evil. This simply is not true. The human will and the whole of human nature is bent to ONLY evil CONTINUALLY Jeremiah asked, "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots’? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil" (Jer 13:23). It is impossible. It is contrary to nature Thus do men desperately need the supernatural transformation of their natures, else their wills are enslaved to choosing evil.

In spite of the great praise that is given to "free will," we have seen that man’s will is not free to choose a course contrary to God’s purposes nor free to act contrary to his own moral nature. Your will does not determine the events of your life nor the circumstances of it. Ethical choices are not formed by a neutral mind but always dictated by your personality makeup.

THE MYTH OF SPIRITUAL FREEDOM

Nevertheless many assert that the human will makes the ultimate choice of spiritual life or spiritual death. They say that here the will is altogether free to choose eternal life offered in Jesus Christ or to reject it. It is said that God will give a new heart to all who choose by the power of their own free will to receive Jesus Christ.
There can be no question that receiving Jesus Christ is an act of the human will. It is often called "faith." But how do men come to willingly receive the Lord? It is usually answered, "Out of the power of their own free will." But how can that be? Jesus is a PROPHET . To receive Him means to believe all that He says. In John 8:41-45 Jesus made it clear that you were born of Satan. This evil father hates the truth and imparted the same bias into your heart by nature. Hence said Jesus, "Because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not." How does the human will jump out of man to choose to believe what the human mind hates and denies?

Further, to receive Jesus means to embrace him as a PRIEST — that is, to employ and depend on him to sue out peace with God by sacrifice and intercession. Paul tells us that the mind with which we were born is hostile to God (Rom 8:7). How can the will escape the influence of human nature which was born with a violent enmity to God? It would be insane for the will to choose peace when every bone and drop of blood cries out for rebellion.

Then too, receiving Jesus means to welcome Him as a KING. It means choosing to obey His every command, to confess His right of rule and to worship before His throne. But the human mind, emotions, and desires all cry out, "We will not have this man to reign over us" (Luke 19:14). If my whole being hates His truth, hates His rule and hates peace with God, how can my will be responsible for receiving Jesus? How can such a sinner have faith?

It is not man’s will but God’s GRACE that must be thanked for giving a sinner a new heart. Unless God changes the heart, creates a new spirit of peace, truthfulness, and submission. man will not choose to receive Jesus Christ and eternal life in Him. A new heart must he given before a man can believe, or else the human will is hopelessly enslaved to evil human nature even in the matter of conversion. Jesus said. "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye MUST be born again" (John 3:7).

Unless you are, you will never see His kingdom.

Read John 1:12 & 13. It says that those who believe on Jesus have been "born, not of the will of man, but of God." As your will is not responsible for your coming into this world, it is not responsible for the new birth. It is your Creator who must be thanked for your life, and if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation (2Co 5:17). Who ever chose to be created? When Lazarus rose from the dead, he then could choose to answer the call of Christ, but he could not choose to come to life. So Paul said in Ephesians 2:5, "Even when we were dead in sins, [God] I hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)."

Faith is the first act of a will made new by the Holy Spirit. Receiving Christ is an act of man just as breathing is, but God must first give life.
No wonder Martin Luther wrote a book entitled The Bondage of the Will which he considered one of his most important treatises. The will is in the chains of an evil human nature. You who extol the free will as a great force are clinging to a root of pride. Man, as fallen in sin, is utterly helpless and hopeless. The will of man offers no hope. It was the will choosing the forbidden fruit that brought us into misery. The powerful grace of God alone offers deliverance. Cast yourself upon God’s mercy for salvation. Ask for the Spirit of Grace that He may create a new spirit within you.

http://www.albatrus.org/english/theology/free_will/myth_free_will.htm

busterdog

October 26th, 2005, 06:10 PM

I'm no scholar, just a regular foot soldier. But as I read the bible, it looks like both are true.

Yep. Common sense. Even if it does make sense. There is no other position.

Physics says, since there are extra dimensions we don't perceive, God sees the whole parade at once from start to finish while we do what we do by free will.

There is great comfort in that for intercessors, since God can speak things that are not as if they were.

Can't that God even fix things that have happened before you pray?

blitzkreig

October 26th, 2005, 07:53 PM

Common sense. Even if it does make sense. There is no other position.

Physics says, since there are extra dimensions we don't perceive, God sees the whole parade at once from start to finish while we do what we do by free will.

There is great comfort in that for intercessors, since God can speak things that are not as if they were.

Can't that God even fix things that have happened before you pray? :twitch

LaMontre

October 26th, 2005, 11:42 PM

Can't that God even fix things that have happened before you pray?

Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Enlightenment

October 27th, 2005, 10:57 AM

Can't that God even fix things that have happened before you pray?

This is interesting. Is everything that is ever going to happen fixed from eternity past? Alternate question: Is God's will set and can't be changed? If so, why does Jesus say, "ask for anything in my name and I will do it"?

blitzkreig

October 27th, 2005, 01:20 PM

This is interesting. Is everything that is ever going to happen fixed from eternity past? Alternate question: Is God's will set and can't be changed? If so, why does Jesus say, "ask for anything in my name and I will do it"?Because He knows if you respond to that statement and ask something ... that too was predestined ... ?

Enlightenment it may have gotten snowed under but if you send me an email address on a PM I will send you a MSWord version of the Jonathan Edwards book which link has gone down. It compares and contrasts what the great Philosophers such as Plato say about such things ... compared to Scripture.

An important premise which must be settled is that of "Necessity". And that book deals with it very well.

Question ... if certain outcomes are fixed (any at all really) how is it that some supposed free and independent decisions do not effect the outcome of the fixed outcomes ... ? Does God need a contingency plan? Is Bible prophecy only a best guess ... ?

No.

What does that tell us? All very interesting stuff really ...

LaMontre

October 27th, 2005, 03:08 PM

This is interesting. Is everything that is ever going to happen fixed from eternity past? Alternate question: Is God's will set and can't be changed? If so, why does Jesus say, "ask for anything in my name and I will do it"?

For me this is really gets to the crux of the issue about alternate perspectives.

Our perspective says, "Here is a reason for which 'I will' to pray_______."

And for us thats a new item in our History, and something we are waiting upon God for. But from Gods perspective, that is exactly what was supposed to happen and in fact it was by His prompting that you prayed as you did. And whatever the outcome (or answer to our prayer), it is a part of His entire plan. I believe this is where real faith is rooted. Not that you have to believe or even know this, but that faith in prayer is given as a gift according to Gods foreknowledge, and it is thus used by God. This thought is quite comforting to me....and it may explain too how all things can work together for good to them that love God....that this fact is not a random phenomenon, but it is a promise which only a totally sovereign God could keep.

blitzkreig

October 27th, 2005, 03:18 PM

Praying is primarily for the benefit of the person doing the praying. Our Father knows before we pray what it is we need ...

Mat 6:7-8
(7) But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
(8) Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.