Question about forgiveness

[Medic911]

In another thread, the subject of bin ladin came up. Many (most?) Christians feel that we should forgive him. I have a question about this though:

I certainly believe 100% that as Christians we should be quick to offer our total forgiveness.

However even God doesn't forgive those who don't first ask for forgiveness.

Are we expected to forgive even those who are unrepentant and who do not ask our forgiveness?
I asked my Sunday School class once, and they immediately responded with shock, saying, "Of course! We're commanded to forgive everyone unconditionally!"

I'm not saying that I disagree necessarily.... but Scripturally speaking, is there ever a clear indication that we are commanded to "forgive" someone who is utterly unrepentant? Up until my Sunday School class responded this way, I've always simply assumed and interpreted it to mean that the Bible assumes that the offender is seeking forgiveness when it commands us to forgive.

I guess I just grew up believing/assuming this, and was actually somewhat shocked that I was in the minority. Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying: If someone commits an offense against me somehow, and they apologize, I believe that a Christian should offer their absolute, 100% unconditional forgiveness. And even if they don't ask for forgiveness, we should offer our 100% love and compassion.
I'm speaking purely of forgiveness. Not love, mercy, or compassion. I always felt that they could be viewed independant of each other.

Again, even God Himself expects us to seek/ask forgiveness.

I consider myself to have a fairly good grasp on Scriptures, but this is one topic I've never been completely clear on.

Anyone care to elaborate? Please stick to Scriptural evidence so much as possible. Thanks. :):

[Mr. Igg]

No clear answer, but I've been chewing on the same question myself in various contexts (not Bin Laden, but other similar unrepentant "bad people"). I'll look forward to some good, solid Scripturally-supported answers, too!

[Fairborough]

Good question.

I think the difference you note between forgiveness, and love and compassion is very appropriate.



Just some things I have thought about for awhile - which I hope helps

Some people have been so aggrieved that though in their heart they are willing to forgive, they need time to be ready to do that.

(I personally would question the word 'commandment' - maybe 'decree' would be better )

The rights - but more importantly the heart - of the abused has to be taken into account before anything else.
It is not within the power of the offender to dictate when or how, or even if they are to be forgiven.

Many Christians have been heartless in their demands of their brethren.
Jesus wouldn't use this "decree" as the first line of attack against the victim, which sadly so many do.


So in short, I think that depending on the situation, one can be willing - but not necessarily ready - at the time. God, I am sure sees this and understands - and he does say 'willingness' is acceptable with him.




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[MovinOnUp]

...Medic, this is the first thing that came to mind:

However even God doesn't forgive those who don't first ask for forgiveness.




If we are to be Christ-like, wouldn't the plea in our soul be: 'Father Forgive Them, For they know not what they do"...............

---forgiveness would be akin to 'save them'? wouldn't it? so when we see a bin laden, shouldn't we be thinking--this is an empty person, devoid of the Holy Spirit...Father there but for the Grace go i,

please save them, if it is your will....

70X7 because of the Holy Spirit in us, can understand that a monster of a person, like bin laden, is a deceived soul....and in need of salvation--forgiveness. (willingness to forgive)

I'm speaking purely of forgiveness. Not love, mercy, or compassion. I always felt that they could be viewed independant of each other.


It is only because the spirit of God dwelling in us, that we can 'see' a person's need for salvation, forgiveness, ...if you use bin laden as an example, i think we have it IN US to ask God to forgive, have mercy on, save, them......only God can forgive sin...through Jesus Christ.....but i think a 'forgiving' spirit that we have in us...is the starting point for that...

? these are my thoughts, but i will have to do some digging in the word, to straighten out, for myself, too...

good question, Medic.

[andy]

Here is the main point. To forgive someone who has wronged us is not for that person's benefit.........it is for ours! If that person has not repented or apologized, etc. the sin falls on them......not us.

Mar 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have aught against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
Mar 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

If you notice, the person who benefits is the person who forgives. Nothing is said about the person you have forgiven.


Act 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Basically, Stephen forgave them and asked God to forgive those who stoned him to death.

As I see it, forgiveness is not an option, but a commandment from our Lord. I do admit that forgiving someone is one of the hardest things we are required to do as christians. It is very hard sometimes.

Just my 2 cents.

[Blessedx4]

I've always thought that we should follow Christs example, He asked forgiveness for those who were there persecuting him at the cross. They didn't ask forgiveness either but Christ asked that they be forgiven anyway.

To me it's the ultimate example of love. To ask God to forgive someone who's wronged you even if they've not asked for it.

My pastor also told me to forgive someone who'd molested me. I thought he was crazy but followed his suggestion.That I was to begin praying for this man every day that they be blessed and forgiven any sins. He said as soon as I was able to tell this person I'd forgiven him. Ultimately I did "feel" the forgiveness and this person did appologize "in his own way" by admitting to me that what he did to me was wrong. I healed in the process though and felt so liberated. I was no longer "hating" that person anymore and harboring a grudge. But I was free from that

[allynnegirl]

Here is the main point. To forgive someone who has wronged us is not for that person's benefit.........it is for ours! If that person has not repented or apologized, etc. the sin falls on them......not us.

Mar 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have aught against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
Mar 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

If you notice, the person who benefits is the person who forgives. Nothing is said about the person you have forgiven.

*snip*

I do admit that forgiving someone is one of the hardest things we are required to do as christians. It is very hard sometimes.

I don't think I could say it any better than this. It has been my experience that unforgiveness only hurts the victim, not the unforgiven. While it is very hard to forgive (usually because we feel our "righteous" anger is justified), the longer we hold it, the longer it imprisons us, twists our emotions and work physical damage on us.

Eph 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath

[carmen]

I think if we are truly to love others as we love ourselves, we must forgive others even if they don't ask. I know that I, when I have done something wrong, am quick to justify what I did and make it "right" in my mind. That's wrong, of course, and God is usually not far behind in reminding me of that fact and telling me to stop. But nonetheless it shows how we excuse ourselves, while demanding others take some action before we'll excuse them. If we're going to love others the way we love ourselves, we've got to allow them the same justifications and excuses we allow ourselves. Or at least, that's my thought.

[Medic911]

Thank to everyone!

Some very great Scriptural examples. This is exactly what I was looking for, and I think I'm much more clear on the subject. Thanks!

:thumb :):

[antsinmypants]

How about the L-rd's Prayer?

"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us..."

[Medic911]

How about the L-rd's Prayer?

"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us..."

Yeah, but once again... we are asking for forgiveness. I guess this is where I've always gotten hung up on the issue... because even God's forgiveness is conditional upon our actually seeking it. God is quick to forgive, but if a person were to commit an offense against God and then defiantly say to Him, "Yeah, I sinned. So what? I'm not sorry that I did it, and I would do it again! I don't want your forgiveness!" then He would not be forgiven.

I picture bin ladin the same way. He doesn't want our forgiveness, and would happily do it again if given the chance.

So I guess in the past I've always used God's forgiveness as a model for how we should act...which is what confused me; but some of the verses mentioned above helped.

For example, the example of Jesus praying for God the Father to forgive those who were crucifying Him. I've always been kind of :confused over that verse, actually... because I always thought to myself, "Why would Jesus ask that God the Father forgive them, knowing full well that they would not be forgiven unless they first asked for it?" That never totally made sense to me. ...but now I think I better understand. I think that Jesus was doing this merely to set an example for us. Because the Father may reserve the sovereign rights to forgive --or not forgive--whom He chooses (dependant upon our faith and acceptance of Christ of course) but it is not our place to play God by making such distinctions.

Since forgiveness is based upon faith, rather than works, we are in no way qualified nor justified in making such assessments, which are reserved only for God Himself.

Yet Jesus, being in the flesh, was setting an example for us. He was fulfilling one of His roles: serving as a model of perfect Christian behavior. Therefore He forgave others unconditionally--even as they crucified Him-- reserving the issue of whether or not they deserved judgement for God the Father. (Following His death of course, we would enter a time of Grace in which Jesus would Himself become the needed bridge which allows us to be forgiven... but it was not yet so.)

Does any of my thinking make sense? Or am I just rambling... :lol

[antsinmypants]

Ok, Look at it this way Medic, It's a circular thought. Forgive me, as I am forgiving those who do ill (slight/bad-mouth/hurt/kill...) towards me.

It's a work in motion. I forgive, though they haven't asked; and as i work towards forgiving; L-rd, remember thou even me.

Much like- and in the same Spirit as "Father, forgive them, they do not know what they are doing". The reason HE asks, is that the people were totally innocent in the fact that some of them were "just doing their job" and didn't know He was the Son of G-d, whilst others did full well know. It's the true act of a true Sacrifice for true Redemption. No one deserves it, but *everyone* can acheive salvation through Him :):


Back to your other question: While WE forgive, it may be that they never ask forgiveness, and G-d does bring their deeds back to rememberance and judges them for it in the resurrection of the just and unjust.

[Timothy]

In another thread, the subject of bin ladin came up. Many (most?) Christians feel that we should forgive him.... Are we expected to forgive even those who are unrepentant and who do not ask our forgiveness?

In a past thread on a similar topic, BHiles wrote the following which I think is directly relevant:

...we are only to forgive the wrongs done to you personally. We have no right to grant forgiveness on someoneelse's behalf. Look throughout the Bible, In every instance where forgiveness is spoken about in human beings it is the one wronged doing the forgiving not someone else. Again this is misplaced that we ought to forgive everyone for everything, join hands and sing kumbya. We have no right to grant forgiveness on the behalf of some one who is wronged. it is up to them. Yes they should grant forgiveness but it is gifted to the sinner from the victim and the victim only....

So I agree with BHiles that unless you have personally been "wronged" by Bin Laden, you have no merit or basis to offer forgiveness, from a judicial standpoint.

But when someone has been wronged, the instruction on forgiveness is clear.

Notice the instruction of forgiveness under the law ("time past"), before the cross, and how it was conditional (if / then).

Matthew 6:14-15 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Notice the instruction of forgiveness changed under grace ("but now"), after the cross, and how it is unconditional.

Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

We have and hold the full power of forgiveness, because we are already forgiven ourselves. We are empowered to forgive, and it's not something to hold back or limit.

II Corinthians 2:10-11 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

Romans 12:19-21 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

[antsinmypants]

:nod Exactly! :thumb

[antsinmypants]

I cannot verify this website, nor do I have the time to, but this article speaks to the issue:

Shows how the teachings are already upheld principles of forgiveness and no vain repetitions (or prayers)..

http://www.yashanet.com/studies/matstudy/mat6d.htm

[truth child]

Forgiveness is for the good of the forgiver and strengthens his tie with the Lord. God will deal with the forgiveeee in his own way. Only He has the power to pronounce the judgment. That part is out of our hands entirely, so why bog our hearts down with a burden that has been given to Him to work out. Nothing goes unnoticed before God. There would be fewer burdened down people if we could just place the whole case in God's hands. This is strengthening to the People of God, noone else.

[Not by Sight]

Christ said, while hanging on the cross, "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do." No one had asked His forgiveness at that point. I think that if we see things the way Christ does, we can realize that most people who sin against us really and truly, in a spiritual awareness sense, do not know what they do. They do not understand the eternal ramifications of their actions.

I have someone I my life who grievously wronged me when I was a child, continued to abuse me as I grew up, spearated me from my father and then proceeded to emotionally abuse me even when I was an adult! This person has never even conceded they did anything wrong. I have to realize though, that this person is lost and is a slave to the sin nature. I pray that they will come to salvation.

I have a stalker who has been stalking, harassing and threatening to kill me for some time. I have had to pray for his soul and pray for God to protect him and help him and heal his sick mind, which is deranged by sin. He has certainly never asked me for forgiveness. But I truly feel he does not know what he is doing.

Do I still sometimes get upset with these two people? I do, and I ask God to help me to get to a point where I don't get mad at them at all. I believe that is the way God wants us to live. At some time in our lives, we were all enslaved by sin and likely to do some really horrible things to people. By the grace of God, we are forgiven and are new creatures. I pray for the same mercy upon others.

[antsinmypants]

Forgiveness is for the good of the forgiver and strengthens his tie with the Lord. God will deal with the forgiveeee in his own way. Only He has the power to pronounce the judgment. That part is out of our hands entirely, so why bog our hearts down with a burden that has been given to Him to work out. Nothing goes unnoticed before God. There would be fewer burdened down people if we could just place the whole case in God's hands. This is strengthening to the People of God, noone else.

Bingo! :):