Wedding Witness Question

[Pegmo]

I wondered if anyone has considered not attending a wedding as a witness due to the nature of the relationship prior to the wedding?

Specifically I have a nephew getting married next year and he and his fiance have been quite open about their pre-marital sexual relations.

I also have a brother living in a 7 year homosexual relationship, and I have had to think through my response to any upcoming invitation of celebration of their status as a couple, although it hasn't happened yet (I just wanted to be prepared). In that situation, I had come to the conclusion that I couldn't attend such a celebration because in so doing I would be affirming their sin choice.

But I wondered if I was being inconsistent if I attended my nephews wedding next year without some thought along similar lines. I would like to affirm their choice of marriage, but wondered if there is some conflict with their pre-marital lifestyle choice that I would be affirming. Maybe these aren't apple to apple situations to compare.

I am sure many of us run into this situation these days. Your thoughts?

[Ladybug]

I would say it wasn't an apple to apple situation. Your brother would still be living in sin (regardless of what the state says) whereas your nephew will not. I think going would show your approval of the marriage. :nod

[Smile]

I don't think someone's wedding is the appropriate opportunity/place to show your disagreement with someone's choices. I think you should go because you love them and vice versa and it is one of the happiest days of their lives, regardless of what brought them there. That said, if someone can't be nice or refrain from saying inappropriate things at the wedding (not saying you would do this), it is best they stay home. I guess I just try to remember that at a wedding, it is about them not you.

Just my feelings, not everyone will agree.

[Patty T]

Your nephew will be doing the right thing by getting married - that's scriptural. Their sexual sin certainly needs to be brought before the Lord and repented for. Joining in their celebration affirms (IMHO) you are in agreement with their commitment to be married and God will view them as "one".

Your brother's relationship is quite different in my opinion. Celebrating a relationship God considers an abomination does not line up with scripture as far as I can tell. The Father will never look upon this relationship as "one".

Praying God will give you not only wisdom, but courage and strength to do what is right in His eyes for both situations.

[B A N E]

First question, do they confess to be christians?
If not, then you're less limited.

If yes, then you are limited.
nephew & neice, they're correcting a continuous sin.
However, until they're married, we're instructed to have nothing
to do with them while they are engaged in sexual sin.

brother, have nothing to do with him.

[mom of 4]

Wow. Thats harsh. If we truly follow that "have nothing to do with them," I guess that should go for everyone. Everyone sins. Period. Some of us have a hard time seeing the light- some of us try to correct our sins and fall back into sin. It happens. Everyday. To ALL of us. Christians as well as nonchristians.

Be a loving witness. Love them as Christ would. Let them know you are concerned for them- and why. I had a brother who was deeply invoved with something that he shouldn't have been. He was so blinded it was hard for him to see the truth- he was a Christian by the way- struggling- but still a believer. I loved him and was awitness to him- at the same time I let him no in no unspoken terms that I was not in agreement with what he was doing.
He came around- and the first person he felt comfortable with talking too- was me. I hadn't shunned him or shut him out.

[B A N E]

1 Cor 5:9-13

9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-

10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.

11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?

13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."
NIV

[MarkD]

mom of 4,

BANE's response is if both couples profess to be christian.

If they are christian, then they should know better, and are living in willfull disobedience to the word of God.

If they are not christian, then it is a different story. Look at the first part of scripture that BANE cited. If we were not to associate with ALL the sexually immoral people of the world, we would have to leave the world (ah, how I wish sometimes).

That's why BANE said that if they do NOT profess to be christian, then we are less limited. What BANE was recommending pegmo do was based on both of the couples indicating they WERE christian.

If these couples do not profess to be christian, then I would probably soften BANE's response simply by removing the "have nothing to do with him" clause for both parties.

Although I probably still would not go to the gay brothers wedding, for reasons that Patty T spelled out.

[mom of 4]

BANE,
I can see what you are saying. But this also refered to brothers who are greedy(sorry...lots of us in our human nature are,) those that are drunkards. OK. So, we are to shun a fellow Christian who is struggling with alcoholism? I'm not trying to be sacarstic, I guess I really don't know. My sil is a Christian, and yet she is struggling with alcoholism. I have been there to pray with her, to point out God's word. Should I have nothing to do with her? She is trying to overcome this....but she slips and is back to square one.
I have a friend who is a missionary, and the two of us prayed for her healing with her last week. Maybe we are wrong.

[blitzkreig]

My sil is a Christian, and yet she is struggling with alcoholism. I have been there to pray with her, to point out God's word. Should I have nothing to do with her? She is trying to overcome this....but she slips and is back to square one. Sorry to step in when you were talking with B A N E but the term "drunkard" in 1 Cor 5:11 implies there is no struggle ... but instead as a willing participant in debauchery.


I have a friend who is a missionary, and the two of us prayed for her healing with her last week. Maybe we are wrong.Non-association (or rather non-fellowship) does not mean that you would not pray for someone or wouldn't in anyway interact. It means you wouldn't fellowship (and or worship) together.

.

[blitzkreig]

Their sexual sin certainly needs to be brought before the Lord and repented for. Patty repent means "turn from" or "abandoned" ... when they marry they are doing just that ...

I think you mean "confess". Christians need to confess one thing and that is for sure. Jesus is Lord.

It is an error to confuse the two. We must constantly repent (turn from sin) but "confession" as I believe you mean and such as the catholics do is not a prescribed requirement in Scripture. One would not lose salvation if they were to miss out confessing a sin ...

Now of course there may will be a requirement to go before the assembly in their Church and make some acknowledgement of their wrongs ...

.

[Ladybug]

Notice you side-stepped the greed part, blitz.

[Hootmon]

G4123
πλεονέκτης
pleonektēs
Thayer Definition:
1) one eager to have more, especially what belongs to others
2) greedy of gain, covetous
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4119 and G2192Swindlers, Con Artists, gratuitous Lawsuit-filers

[Patty T]

Patty repent means "turn from" or "abandoned" ... when they marry they are doing just that ...

I think you mean "confess". Christians need to confess one thing and that is for sure. Jesus is Lord.

It is an error to confuse the two. We must constantly repent (turn from sin) but "confession" as I believe you mean and such as the catholics do is not a prescribed requirement in Scripture. One would not lose salvation if they were to miss out confessing a sin ...

Now of course there may will be a requirement to go before the assembly in their Church and make some acknowledgement of their wrongs ...

.


Actually I did mean repent. My thought was if they are believers, even though they're getting married, they need to repent before the Lord and stop the sexual sin. Sorry if I wasn't very clear :sorry

I do know the difference between repent and confess, but thank you for the reminder :):

[blitzkreig]

My thought was if they are believers, even though they're getting married, they need to repent before the Lord and stop the sexual sin. Sorry if I wasn't very clear :sorryMy point being that the very act of their getting married is the "repenting" before the Lord. And the sooner the better. This very day is not too soon. :doh

.

[B A N E]

BANE,
My sil is a Christian, and yet she is struggling with alcoholism.
<snip>
Maybe we are wrong.

mom of 4,
No, that is different in circumstance and IMO, Blitz answered well.
Thanks blitz.

[Pegmo]

In answer to your question about whether they profess to be Christians....

None of them are born again....all were raised Catholic but practice loosely. That said, my nephew and his fiance would consider themselves christians if you asked them. I would define them differently. My nephew, his fiance and my brother are all aware of the biblical teaching that premarital sex and homosexual relationships are sinful in God's eyes.

I would have to say that I think that neither my nephew and his fiance, nor my brother, have repented or plan to. My guess is that they don't believe they are sinning...basically they have rejected that idea. Therefore I don't think my nephew considers his marriage as a way of righting his wrong. I think they are just taking the next step as they see it.

So just wanted to answer the question on their relationship with Jesus. And I think it was helpful of you to share that particular insight. Since none of the 4 would call themselves brothers and sisters in Christ as those on this board would...then perhaps I should be applying a different standard to them than I would to myself or any of you.

[milkncookiesmom]

We ran into this situation two years ago when DH's brother asked Dh to stand up as best man in his wedding. The two of them had been living together and we struggled with this, mostly because of our kids and what message they were getting from this.

DH talked with his brother, who agreed he shouldn't be living with and having marital relationships with his fiance. However, he wasn't going to make any changes, just wanted to plow ahead with wedding plans.

DH talked with our pastor at the time about this who counseled him to view it as the two of them making it right before God by getting married and not continuing in sin.

DH did fly east to stand up in the wedding, but I and the kids didn't go. Mostly because I don't like to fly and the cost was beyond us to fly or drive the whole family out there, hotels etc.

But I confess, that both DH and I had trouble with this yet. BIL and his fiance lived together for more than 3 years. It took BIL a long time to propose to her because he had too much debt and couldn't afford the ring he wanted to give her. When he did finally give her a ring, it was a huge rock! Then they started wedding plans that took 2 years of saving and planning so they could have the huge storybook wedding that they dreamed of. They took a two week expensive honeymoon.

In all reality, we didn't really see a repentance and making it right, forsaking all sin attitude. It was all part of their plans on their own time to have what they wanted, the big ring, the big wedding, the honeymoon of a lifetime, the white dress, the adoring guests etc. etc.

We said nothing, but it was so hard to just nod in approval too. BIL considers himself a christian and so does his new wife. I know it lays open my heart attitude when I say this, but I found myself feeling a bit angry. By all worldly standards, she was a beautiful bride, very beautiful! The wedding was just as beautiful. The flowers, the Tuxedos, the dinner, the dance everything. DH and I on the other hand had the church basement wedding, we drove an hour away and stayed one night in a hotel for our honeymoon. We couldn't afford more. But we didn't walk in sin and then rationalize it away because we wanted that big wedding and expected people to nod their heads in approval. We married with the ceremony our budget could afford.

The thing is we see no remorse whatsoever. Is this sin worse than another or any of my sins? No, sin is sin, and yet it was so hard to celebrate it knowing their was no repentance.

My God is a great God and a Holy God, apparently more than the god they are serving. Is there no Holy Fear of a Holy God anymore? The example they set is not the example we want our kids to accept as okay.

Since then, DH's sister is now engaged to her supervisor, but can't marry until she transers to another position per company policy. She can't find another position, therefore marriage is delayed, but not the marital relations.

DH's widowed aunt just allowed her new man to move in with her. The story goes that she and him can't marry because she will loose health insurance and othe benefits provided through her late husband's previous employer if she ever remarried.

All of these people claim to be Christians. :tape In the case of DH's brother and his new wife, I don't for a minute believe they married because they wanted to stop sinning. No, it was all a matter of protocol. It's what you do. Just like they go to church every sunday, they were baptised and confirmed and have now had a church wedding and they think themselves "good people".

Blindness!

[milkncookiesmom]

Pegmo, I just posted a reply and then read your last reply. You basically stated what we concluded about DH's brother and and sister in law. It was just the next step on their own agenda. They call themselves christians, but we know lots of people who consider themselves christians, but the fruit is just not there.

It is just really really hard to watch people we love continue to walk in blindness who don't believe they are blind and it seems even harder to know how to bring them into the Light when they don't really see their sin as sin.

That's why we chose to support and pray for them, but then focus on this situation as a way to teach and train our own kids about God's ways and not man's way of doing things. :wave

[Pegmo]

I really appreciate your advice, milkncookiesmom (I love your name by the way!).

I have two boys, 18 and 21, and unfortunately most of the examples set by their relatives on both sides have been "teaching moments"! We haven't had the situation yet where one of my boys is ready to marry or make a choice to live with someone, so can't say for sure what their choices will be when they get to that decision. They know where we stand and hopefully they would make the same choice.

What's unfortunate is that over the past few years, even my husband's parents, who had been fairly conservative on these type of topics in the past, have really turned a blind eye, and even a lighthearted acceptance of many of the family member's choices such as going on vacation with significant others, sharing rooms, jumping from sexual relationship to relationship, etc. And comments such as homosexual relationships don't hurt anyone so why get concerned about them.

So its really fighting an uphill battle on both sides of our family. So far, our children have been pretty receptive to our views because I think they understand why we believe what we do, and they have seen that our choices have been sound in the past. But as any parent knows, we aren't the only influence in our children's lives - clearly the culture inside and outside our family is working hard against us.