Baptism Confusion

[Miriam33]

:confused I grew up in a Lutheran family and we always had infant Baptism because that's what Lutherans did. But, does the Bible even mention infant baptism? My family, including me, have left the Lutheran Church (ELCA) because our eyes have been opened to everything false within it. I don't know, maybe it used to be better.....but now it is becoming so liberal and is falling away from the teachings in the Bible. Anyway, we're still confused about Baptism. We go to a Baptist based church and next week there is baptism service in the local lake for all who want to do it. I want to do it because I feel that one should be baptised as a believer....I am doing this by my own free will...as an infant I didn't have a clue. What does the Bible say about baptism? Is infant baptism a human-made ritual? What Bible verses talk about this? Thanks!:):

[AnyDayNow]

I was sprinkled when I was 10 days old in Lutheran church (Missouri Synod) and then baptized by immersion when I was 24. If it helps, here is something I posted a few days back to someone else considering baptism by immersion:

God is looking for your public testimony of what you know has already happened to you. That you have been Baptized into Jesus Christ (His Body) by the Holy Spirit. You have been Baptized into His Death. Your coming out of the water during the public testimony signifies that you have changed, that you are now a New Creation in Jesus Christ. That you are now clothed with Jesus Christ. All of this has already happened. Nothing can undo that. All you are doing is painting a public picture of what has happened inside you. It's not about the pastor. It's about you.

If I may modify just a little bit for your situation, it's not about the church, either. It's still about you. :nod

Here is that thread in case you are interested:

Baptizing (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=212582)

One of the more rowdier threads (has some Scripture) on infant baptism (I'm in there too):

Infant Baptism (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=157187&highlight=infant+baptism)

[Miriam33]

I was sprinkled when I was 10 days old in Lutheran church (Missouri Synod) and then baptized by immersion when I was 24. If it helps, here is something I posted a few days back to someone else considering baptism by immersion:



If I may modify just a little bit for your situation, it's not about the church, either. It's still about you. :nod

Here is that thread in case you are interested:

Baptizing (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=212582)

One of the more rowdier threads (has some Scripture) on infant baptism (I'm in there too):

Infant Baptism (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=157187&highlight=infant+baptism)
Thanks so much!

[Beth]

:confused I grew up in a Lutheran family and we always had infant Baptism because that's what Lutherans did. But, does the Bible even mention infant baptism? My family, including me, have left the Lutheran Church (ELCA) because our eyes have been opened to everything false within it. I don't know, maybe it used to be better.....but now it is becoming so liberal and is falling away from the teachings in the Bible. Anyway, we're still confused about Baptism. We go to a Baptist based church and next week there is baptism service in the local lake for all who want to do it. I want to do it because I feel that one should be baptised as a believer....I am doing this by my own free will...as an infant I didn't have a clue. What does the Bible say about baptism? Is infant baptism a human-made ritual? What Bible verses talk about this? Thanks!:):

The Bible teaches believer's baptism - Acts 8:37 in particular. Part of the wonderful story of Philip the evangelist being sent by the Holy Spirit to meet up with the Ethiopian eunuch and open his understanding of the Scriptures in order to reveal Christ to him, and upon the eunuch's confession of faith, to baptize him.

37 'And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.'
38 'And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.' Acts 8:37-38 KJV (note, you may not find Acts 8:37 in some modern versions).

[Resting In Him]

BAPTISM, What is it?
Dan S

Water baptism does NOT save or convey any form of grace (means), as erroneously taught by:

The Roman Catholic Church
The Episcopal Church
The Methodist Church
The Lutheran Church
and several churches of the Reformed tradition
Water baptism is NOT part of today's Gospel of Grace, as erroneously taught by:

The Church of Christ - Campbellite
The Disciples of Christ - Campbellite
The Christian Church - Campbellite
and several Baptist and Pentecostal/charismatic churches
Confusion regarding the topics of water and Spirit baptism is most often due to non-dispensational interpretations of Scripture--in particular the Gospels and the Book of Acts.

Water baptism, if practiced at all, should convey and communicate the reality of our spiritual baptism.

"The Scripture plainly declares that without faith it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), and that the sinner is justified by faith apart from works (Romans 3:28). By what means, then, does the sinner receive faith? Again the Scripture is very plain: "Faith cometh be hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17). It is impossible to have faith in that concerning which one has never heard. Therefore one must first hear the gospel of salvation which is contained in the Word of God before he can believe. But the Word of God is not merely a book which relates certain facts about God and His salvation. The Scriptures are able to make one wise unto salvation (2 Tim. 3:15). "For the Word of God is quick (alive), and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword" (Hebrews 4:12). "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" (1 Peter 1:23). "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth" (James 1:18). These Scriptures indicate that the Word of God not only relates facts but that it is powerful and able to generate faith in those who hear. However, we should not make the mistake that some have, in supposing that there is some magical power in the Bible which operates by itself in producing the results previously mentioned, or that the power in the Bible is due merely to the moral power of the truths it contains. The Word is called the sword of the Spirit; that is, it is the implement which [God] the Holy Spirit uses. The Holy Spirit moved upon men to write the Word and in the hand of the [Holy] Spirit the Word becomes a living and life-giving Word. As far as revelation is concerned, the Holy Spirit always works through the Word, and He uses the Word, not in a mechanical way, but in a personal, sovereign way as it pleases Him.

"It appears evident, therefore, that in this present dispensation [age] the means that God uses to impart salvation to the sinner is the Word of God empowered by the Spirit of God received by faith apart from ceremonial works--[or any works for that matter!]. The fact that multitudes of sinners have received Christ and have manifested the grace of God in their lives entirely apart from and before receiving water baptism is evidence that the grace of salvation is not conferred through baptism" C. Baker. Bold emphasis added.

"For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." (1 Corinthians 1:17). The Apostle Paul


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BAPTISM

Miles J. Stanford

Dr. Kenneth Wuest stated:

The Greek word for 'baptism' speak of the introduction or placing of a person or thing into a new environment or into union with something else, so as to alter its condition or its relationship to its previous environment or condition.

When we believed [the Apostle Paul's Gospel of Grace], the Holy Spirit baptized us into the Lord Jesus.

By one Spirit were we all baptized into one body (2 Corinthians 12:13). Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation; old things are passed; behold, all things are become new (2 Corinthians 5:17).

By this spiritual act of baptism the Holy Spirit places us in union with the Lord Jesus. We were taken out of our old environment and position in the first Adam, and placed in the new environment and position in the last Adam. By that means our position is changed from that of a lost sinner with a depraved nature to that of a righteous saint with the divine nature. And our relationship to the Law is changed from that of a guilty sinner to that of a justified saint. This spiritual baptism occurs once, at the new birth, and is forever.

1) The act of water baptism is meant to be our practical, public testimony to, a picture of, our spiritual baptism into the Lord Jesus.

Positionally, judicially, each believer was positioned in, identified with, the Lord Jesus on the Cross. From that point on, in that judicial oneness, what happened to the Lord Jesus, happened to us.

I have been crucified with Christ (Galatians 2:20).

That crucifixion involved His and our death unto sin.

Know ye not that, as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? (Romans 6:3).

As we are submerged in the waters of baptism, we are testifying and depicting the fact that the Spirit has baptized us into Christ's death. Our identification in His death includes a number of blessed factors:

In Christ we died to the penal consequences of sin. For he that hath died is freed from sin (Romans 6:7).

In Christ we died to the power and reign of sin. Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed [rendered inoperative], that henceforth we should not serve sin (Romans 6:6).

In Christ we died to the world. God forbid that I should glory, save in the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world (Galatians 6:14). Here, by the "world" is meant all that in which God is left out.

Hence, we are to love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world (1 John 2:15,16).

In Christ we died to the self-centered life. He died for all, that they which live, should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto Him which died for them and rose again (2 Corinthians 5:14,15).

In Christ the believer died to the claim of the law, as well as the principle of law in general. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ (Romans 7:4). Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth (Romans 10: 4). Our death with Christ, as symbolized in our water baptism, has satisfied the demands of the law. There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8: 1).

In Christ we died to the dominion of Satan. Forasmuch as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself took part of the same; that, through death, He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the Devil, and deliver them who, through fear of death, were all their lifetime subject to bondage (Hebrews 2:14,15).

2) Our water baptism pictures our burial with Christ in His death.

Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death (Romans 6:4).

As we allow ourselves to be submerged below the surface of the baptismal waters, we are enabled, in some small measure, to appreciate what our Lord passed through in order to save us from the penalty of our sins and the power of our sin.

We are henceforth better able to understand and comply with His statement to us,

Likewise, reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin (Romans 6: 11).

Now we can know something more of His bitter anguish and cry on our behalf:

The waters are come into My soul. I sink in deep mire where there is no standing. I am come into deep waters where the floods overflow me. Reproach hath broken my heart, and I am full of heaviness. I looked for some to take pity, but there was none, and for comforters, but I found none. They gave me gall for my meat, and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink (Psalms 69:1-3; 20,21). Again He cried, Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps. Thy wrath lieth hard upon me, and thou hast afflicted me with Thy waves (Psalms 88:6,7).

3) Our Lord was not only delivered for our transgressions, but He was raised again for our justification (Romans 4:25). Praise the Lord!

When we are brought up out of the waters of baptism, we are picturing our resurrection from the dead -- in Him.

That like as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection (Romans 6:4,5).

Hence our baptism not only consists of immersion in water, submergence under water, but emergence from the water to complete the picture of our spiritual baptism in union with the Lord Jesus.

As He arose from the dead, to live in the power of an endless life, so we are to reckon ourselves alive unto God in Christ Jesus, our Lord (Romans 6:11).

In this new position of life from the dead, the Word says to us,

Let not sin, therefore, reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in its lusts. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin, but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God (Romans 6:12,13).

http://withchrist.org/baptism.htm

[Miriam33]

The Bible teaches believer's baptism - Acts 8:37 in particular. Part of the wonderful story of Philip the evangelist being sent by the Holy Spirit to meet up with the Ethiopian eunuch and open his understanding of the Scriptures in order to reveal Christ to him, and upon the eunuch's confession of faith, to baptize him.

37 'And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.'
38 'And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.' Acts 8:37-38 KJV (note, you may not find Acts 8:37 in some modern versions).
I really am an airhead sometimes. I taught 4th and 5th graders at VBS last week and this story about Philip was our lesson on the 4th day. I was really focusing on how Philip chose to follow God and so he took the path into the desert...even though it was hot and not as easy as his original plan. I forgot about the baptism part. Thanks for helping me remember!:):

[Miriam33]

BAPTISM, What is it?
Dan S

Water baptism does NOT save or convey any form of grace (means), as erroneously taught by:

The Roman Catholic Church
The Episcopal Church
The Methodist Church
The Lutheran Church
and several churches of the Reformed tradition
Water baptism is NOT part of today's Gospel of Grace, as erroneously taught by:

The Church of Christ - Campbellite
The Disciples of Christ - Campbellite
The Christian Church - Campbellite
and several Baptist and Pentecostal/charismatic churches
Confusion regarding the topics of water and Spirit baptism is most often due to non-dispensational interpretations of Scripture--in particular the Gospels and the Book of Acts.

Water baptism, if practiced at all, should convey and communicate the reality of our spiritual baptism.

"The Scripture plainly declares that without faith it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), and that the sinner is justified by faith apart from works (Romans 3:28). By what means, then, does the sinner receive faith? Again the Scripture is very plain: "Faith cometh be hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17). It is impossible to have faith in that concerning which one has never heard. Therefore one must first hear the gospel of salvation which is contained in the Word of God before he can believe. But the Word of God is not merely a book which relates certain facts about God and His salvation. The Scriptures are able to make one wise unto salvation (2 Tim. 3:15). "For the Word of God is quick (alive), and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword" (Hebrews 4:12). "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" (1 Peter 1:23). "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth" (James 1:18). These Scriptures indicate that the Word of God not only relates facts but that it is powerful and able to generate faith in those who hear. However, we should not make the mistake that some have, in supposing that there is some magical power in the Bible which operates by itself in producing the results previously mentioned, or that the power in the Bible is due merely to the moral power of the truths it contains. The Word is called the sword of the Spirit; that is, it is the implement which [God] the Holy Spirit uses. The Holy Spirit moved upon men to write the Word and in the hand of the [Holy] Spirit the Word becomes a living and life-giving Word. As far as revelation is concerned, the Holy Spirit always works through the Word, and He uses the Word, not in a mechanical way, but in a personal, sovereign way as it pleases Him.

"It appears evident, therefore, that in this present dispensation [age] the means that God uses to impart salvation to the sinner is the Word of God empowered by the Spirit of God received by faith apart from ceremonial works--[or any works for that matter!]. The fact that multitudes of sinners have received Christ and have manifested the grace of God in their lives entirely apart from and before receiving water baptism is evidence that the grace of salvation is not conferred through baptism" C. Baker. Bold emphasis added.

"For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." (1 Corinthians 1:17). The Apostle Paul


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BAPTISM

Miles J. Stanford

Dr. Kenneth Wuest stated:

The Greek word for 'baptism' speak of the introduction or placing of a person or thing into a new environment or into union with something else, so as to alter its condition or its relationship to its previous environment or condition.

When we believed [the Apostle Paul's Gospel of Grace], the Holy Spirit baptized us into the Lord Jesus.

By one Spirit were we all baptized into one body (2 Corinthians 12:13). Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation; old things are passed; behold, all things are become new (2 Corinthians 5:17).

By this spiritual act of baptism the Holy Spirit places us in union with the Lord Jesus. We were taken out of our old environment and position in the first Adam, and placed in the new environment and position in the last Adam. By that means our position is changed from that of a lost sinner with a depraved nature to that of a righteous saint with the divine nature. And our relationship to the Law is changed from that of a guilty sinner to that of a justified saint. This spiritual baptism occurs once, at the new birth, and is forever.

1) The act of water baptism is meant to be our practical, public testimony to, a picture of, our spiritual baptism into the Lord Jesus.

Positionally, judicially, each believer was positioned in, identified with, the Lord Jesus on the Cross. From that point on, in that judicial oneness, what happened to the Lord Jesus, happened to us.

I have been crucified with Christ (Galatians 2:20).

That crucifixion involved His and our death unto sin.

Know ye not that, as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? (Romans 6:3).

As we are submerged in the waters of baptism, we are testifying and depicting the fact that the Spirit has baptized us into Christ's death. Our identification in His death includes a number of blessed factors:

In Christ we died to the penal consequences of sin. For he that hath died is freed from sin (Romans 6:7).

In Christ we died to the power and reign of sin. Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed [rendered inoperative], that henceforth we should not serve sin (Romans 6:6).

In Christ we died to the world. God forbid that I should glory, save in the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world (Galatians 6:14). Here, by the "world" is meant all that in which God is left out.

Hence, we are to love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world (1 John 2:15,16).

In Christ we died to the self-centered life. He died for all, that they which live, should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto Him which died for them and rose again (2 Corinthians 5:14,15).

In Christ the believer died to the claim of the law, as well as the principle of law in general. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ (Romans 7:4). Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth (Romans 10: 4). Our death with Christ, as symbolized in our water baptism, has satisfied the demands of the law. There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8: 1).

In Christ we died to the dominion of Satan. Forasmuch as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself took part of the same; that, through death, He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the Devil, and deliver them who, through fear of death, were all their lifetime subject to bondage (Hebrews 2:14,15).

2) Our water baptism pictures our burial with Christ in His death.

Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death (Romans 6:4).

As we allow ourselves to be submerged below the surface of the baptismal waters, we are enabled, in some small measure, to appreciate what our Lord passed through in order to save us from the penalty of our sins and the power of our sin.

We are henceforth better able to understand and comply with His statement to us,

Likewise, reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin (Romans 6: 11).

Now we can know something more of His bitter anguish and cry on our behalf:

The waters are come into My soul. I sink in deep mire where there is no standing. I am come into deep waters where the floods overflow me. Reproach hath broken my heart, and I am full of heaviness. I looked for some to take pity, but there was none, and for comforters, but I found none. They gave me gall for my meat, and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink (Psalms 69:1-3; 20,21). Again He cried, Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps. Thy wrath lieth hard upon me, and thou hast afflicted me with Thy waves (Psalms 88:6,7).

3) Our Lord was not only delivered for our transgressions, but He was raised again for our justification (Romans 4:25). Praise the Lord!

When we are brought up out of the waters of baptism, we are picturing our resurrection from the dead -- in Him.

That like as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection (Romans 6:4,5).

Hence our baptism not only consists of immersion in water, submergence under water, but emergence from the water to complete the picture of our spiritual baptism in union with the Lord Jesus.

As He arose from the dead, to live in the power of an endless life, so we are to reckon ourselves alive unto God in Christ Jesus, our Lord (Romans 6:11).

In this new position of life from the dead, the Word says to us,

Let not sin, therefore, reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in its lusts. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin, but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God (Romans 6:12,13).

http://withchrist.org/baptism.htm
This has been so helpful. Thankyou!!!:):

[Resting In Him]

This has been so helpful. Thankyou!!!:):

You're welcome.:):

Also, there is a lot more great teaching on that site. :thumb

[Abiding in Him]

Amen, Resting

[Beth]

I really am an airhead sometimes. I taught 4th and 5th graders at VBS last week and this story about Philip was our lesson on the 4th day. I was really focusing on how Philip chose to follow God and so he took the path into the desert...even though it was hot and not as easy as his original plan. I forgot about the baptism part. Thanks for helping me remember!:):


:):

[brother_believe]

It all depends on your theology, basically thats what it comes down to. I myself was once a firm believer in believer's only baptism but with a change in my theology came a change in my understanding of baptism. I pray that the Lord gives you wisdom in this situation, so that you may follow His will. May your reasoning be from the scriptures and may it be pleasing and honoring to God.

[AnyDayNow]

It all depends on your theology,..I myself was once a firm believer in believer's only baptism but...

I won't be making that change because of this (emphasis mine):

Matthew3:4-8... 4. Now John himself had a garment of camel's hair and a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey. 5. Then Jerusalem was going out to him, and all Judea and all the district around the Jordan; 6. and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, as they confessed their sins. 7. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8. "Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; (NASB)

Unbelievers have not repented, therefore "fruit" of/arising out of repentance is impossible, and there has been no confession, either. Nothing I have read in the entire NT disputes what John says here. Water baptism is a public testimony intended for Believers only...period! And water baptism can't make Believers either.