Replacement theology/God's adopted children

[ginnae]

Ok, I asked this in another thread, but since it was in an old thread, I am not sure how much exposure it will get. So I decided to just open my question to a new thread.

:
Originally Posted by Medic911

While there's certainly nothing wrong with dedicating one's home to the Lord, if one believes that the promise of Deu 11:9 applies to the modern church then they have likely blurred the line between the Church and Israel, and run a dangerous risk of falling into the trap of replacement theology in which they wrongly believe that God's promises to Israel have somehow been transferred upon the Church.


I have a question here. While I don't believe our church believes that the church has replaced Israel (replacemnt theology) it does believe the church as God's adopted children. So they say that any promise that was given to Israel is also given to the church because we are adopted into the family, so we have the same promises as Israel holds.
So any comments to that? Are they thinking right or are they thinking wrong?

[semperfidelis]

Ok, I asked this in another thread, but since it was in an old thread, I am not sure how much exposure it will get. So I decided to just open my question to a new thread.




I have a question here. While I don't believe our church believes that the church has replaced Israel (replacemnt theology) it does believe the church as God's adopted children. So they say that any promise that was given to Israel is also given to the church because we are adopted into the family, so we have the same promises as Israel holds.
So any comments to that? Are they thinking right or are they thinking wrong?

I would say that is somewhat accurate as long as the person stating it realizes there is a separation between the two and a specific plan for Israel in addition to the Church.

It will all intersect through Christ eventually. The Church is in Christ now and Israel will come to Christ during the tribulation period.

[blitzkreig]

I have a question here. While I don't believe our church believes that the church has replaced Israel (replacemnt theology) it does believe the church as God's adopted children. So they say that any promise that was given to Israel is also given to the church because we are adopted into the family, so we have the same promises as Israel holds.
So any comments to that? Are they thinking right or are they thinking wrong?I would need more information. On the surface of it, it almost sounds "Neo" or "Progressive" Dispensational and not Full on Replacement/Covenant Theology. They are all each of them an error so to answer your question directly yes they are wrong.

The Church (the Body of Christ) is not mixed up in all of the earthly promises made to Israel. Our calling is much greater and is Heavenly. To mix them (Israel and the Church) up not only creates confusion but it "cheapens" the value of the greater of the two ... which are the promises made to the Church.

We are adopted by God not Israel.

.

[pilgrimian]

I would need more information. On the surface of it, it almost sounds "Neo" or "Progressive" Dispensational and not Full on Replacement/Covenant Theology. They are all each of them an error so to answer your question directly yes they are wrong.

The Church (the Body of Christ) is not mixed up in all of the earthly promises made to Israel. Our calling is much greater and is Heavenly. To mix them (Israel and the Church) up not only creates confusion but it "cheapens" the value of the greater of the two ... which are the promises made to the Church.

We are adopted by God not Israel.

Very good points. One common misunderstanding is the Olive Tree. The Olive Tree is not Israel...we are not grafted into Israel. We are spiritual sons of Abraham (not Jacob).

[semperfidelis]

I would need more information. On the surface of it, it almost sounds "Neo" or "Progressive" Dispensational and not Full on Replacement/Covenant Theology. They are all each of them an error so to answer your question directly yes they are wrong.

The Church (the Body of Christ) is not mixed up in all of the earthly promises made to Israel. Our calling is much greater and is Heavenly. To mix them (Israel and the Church) up not only creates confusion but it "cheapens" the value of the greater of the two ... which are the promises made to the Church.

We are adopted by God not Israel.

.

The only thing that concerns me about this post is the reference to the Churches calling is greater. Even if this is the case I do not view it this way and I think we can fall into a trap of arrogance if we are not careful. Paul warns of arrogance in Romans 11.

I think it would be better to point out the different calling and the different plan but perhaps not so much with a greater or a higher calling. If we study the details we find that earthly or not Israel was first chosen and the blessings for the world came through that nation first.

I just can't help but think the post drips with self exaltation for the Church and individually as we view Israel and I am not sure that this is a completely healthy view. If anything I see it as opposite, even though we are in Christ now we were given a gift that was not ours to begin with.

Also, the earthly promises are only earthly through the Millenial Reign, then they all become eternal for those in Christ, regardless of the separation between Church and Israel.

Am I off on this Blitz, or am I reading your post wrong?

[Patty T]

Ok, I asked this in another thread, but since it was in an old thread, I am not sure how much exposure it will get. So I decided to just open my question to a new thread.




I have a question here. While I don't believe our church believes that the church has replaced Israel (replacemnt theology) it does believe the church as God's adopted children. So they say that any promise that was given to Israel is also given to the church because we are adopted into the family, so we have the same promises as Israel holds.

So any comments to that? Are they thinking right or are they thinking wrong?


I don't believe any/every promise given to Israel is also given to the church. I believe there are promises specific only to Israel.

There are other brothers/sisters here who are much more knowledgeable than me in this area; I just wanted to respond :):

[JLM-223]

I have a question here. While I don't believe our church believes that the church has replaced Israel (replacemnt theology) it does believe the church as God's adopted children. So they say that any promise that was given to Israel is also given to the church because we are adopted into the family, so we have the same promises as Israel holds.
So any comments to that? Are they thinking right or are they thinking wrong?
I have to agree, in a sense. In Gal. 4, we read:
1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; 2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
It is through our relationship with Christ that we are adopted into the family of God. We don’t become Israel (who have their own promises, as spelled out in the OT), but like Israel, we receive the blessings that only God can provide.

[Abiding in Him]

Well, the Church's calling is indeed greater - this would not be arrogance but fact.

The Church (which would include all who are born again - Jews and Gentiles) is heavanly - higher

Israel is earthly- lower

[blitzkreig]

The only thing that concerns me about this post is the reference to the Churches calling is greater. Even if this is the case I do not view it this way and I think we can fall into a trap of arrogance if we are not careful. Paul warns of arrogance in Romans 11.

I think it would be better to point out the different calling and the different plan but perhaps not so much with a greater or a higher calling. If we study the details we find that earthly or not Israel was first chosen and the blessings for the world came through that nation first. Glorified in Heaven is higher by every measure than a tract of land in fleshy bodies.

Keep in mind that it is offered on an equal basis to Jew and Gentile alike ... so I fail to see your point. My point it that it is a better offer than made to the folks in the Old Testament.

The rhetorical question Paul addressed by positing the question ... "well then what good is it being a Jew?" then answer was "well they got the Oracles" in time past ... Rom 3:1-2
(1) What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
(2) Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

I can understand that ...

I just can't help but think the post drips with self exaltation for the Church and individually as we view Israel and I am not sure that this is a completely healthy view. If anything I see it as opposite, even though we are in Christ now we were given a gift that was not ours to begin with. So you do not feel that the Church was a plan of God's from before the foundation of the world? Your term "drips" is insulting. He gets all the exaltation. My salvation is a gift and none of my doing. And a gift for which I am very grateful. Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
My post is that it is "better". Again I say it is open to both Jew and Gentile. But every thing is relative.

Do you think that the sacrificial system was better? Do you think that the Millennial Kingdom in which sin will still be present will be better than Heaven?

Also, the earthly promises are only earthly through the Millennial Reign, then they all become eternal for those in Christ, regardless of the separation between Church and Israel. Now that is absolutely true. New Heaven. New Earth. Whole new game.

Am I off on this Blitz, or am I reading your post wrong?No I think you sense that I think we Christians have it very good. God has "sweetened" the deal. This is not leftovers. Grace, no work. Heavenly positioning instead of earthly. Am I happy about that? ... you bet.

"For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better" (Phil. 1:23)[Lit., "better by far”]. Who in the old Testament would have said something like that ... ?

As you go from front to back in the Scriptures God just makes it better and better ... for Jew and Gentile alike.

.

[FrankDH]

I definitely see two different entities in the church and Israel. Through the process of adoption, we share in Israel's promise. But sharing in their promise is only part of ours.

We also get benefits they don't. We get freed from law. We get raptured, get glorified bodies and live eternally in Christ's presence with access to heaven.

Israel's promise is the salvation of the nation of God. Ours is the salvation of the individual soul of believers. Israel shares in our promise when they realize that Christ is therte King. We all become one in Christ as household of God [church plus Israel] learns to access all the blessings available.

Frank

[Abiding in Him]

Are we adopted or born into the family of God?????

"A positionally established, Christ-centered believer knows that he was born into the family of God, recreated in Christ Jesus in an eternal union of life and nature----His life and nature. "Christ, who is our life" (Col.3:4). He is a living member of Christ's Bride-to-Be, and although he loves God's "holy, and just, and good" law, he having died to it cannot enter into any type of relationship with it.

When the believer experiences his full redemption, including his redeemed and glorious body at the Rapture, he will realize his full legal standing as an adult son before the Father. But he has always been a Blood bought life-related child of God since the moment he wqs re-created in Christ Jesus, by grace alone.

"And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body." Romans 8:23

Adoption into a family is "a legal action by which one takes into his own family a child, not his own, and usually of no kin to him with the purpose of treating him as, and giving him all the privileges of his own son."

A far, far cry from being born into a family!!

(Miles J. Stanford)

[John Tyson]

Grace and peace to you all.

I believe God wants all good things for His children whether they be Jew or Gentile. We gentiles may not inherit Israel's particular promises, we do receive, by faith in Christ, the blessings promised to all the families of the earth (Gen 12:3; Gal 3:6-9).

God bless,
John

[semperfidelis]

Glorified in Heaven is higher by every measure than a tract of land in fleshy bodies.

Keep in mind that it is offered on an equal basis to Jew and Gentile alike ... so I fail to see your point. My point it that it is a better offer than made to the folks in the Old Testament.


It just sounded weird, perhaps you did not mean anything by it. It sounded as if the Church is somehow saying we are superior and your not, when that is not really what it is about. In the end we all have eternal life through Christ.


So you do not feel that the Church was a plan of God's from before the foundation of the world? Your term "drips" is insulting. He gets all the exaltation. My salvation is a gift and none of my doing. And a gift for which I am very grateful.
My post is that it is "better". Again I say it is open to both Jew and Gentile. But every thing is relative.

Do you think that the sacrificial system was better? Do you think that the Millennial Kingdom in which sin will still be present will be better than Heaven?


I think God had a plan to save all humans and Israel was part of that plan. Yes. I think Israel was the first chosen and through Israel he blessed all the nations.

It is not my intention to be insulting here at all.

No, I do not think the MK is better than Heaven.


No I think you sense that I think we Christians have it very good. God has "sweetened" the deal. This is not leftovers. Grace, no work. Heavenly positioning instead of earthly. Am I happy about that? ... you bet.

Who in the old Testament would have said something like that ... ?

As you go from front to back in the Scriptures God just makes it better and better ... for Jew and Gentile alike.

.

I agree.

[blitzkreig]

I think God had a plan to save all humans and Israel was part of that plan. Yes. I think Israel was the first chosen and through Israel he blessed all the nations.
All the Nations will indeed be blessed and through Israel in the Kingdom. Israel will be as a nation of priests to God who will be seated on His Throne in their Capital Jerusalem.

And talk about your pecking order, ... and first class citizens, there will be requirements of the nations to send emissaries every year to Jerusalem and failure to give tribute will bring severe punishment to the nations who do not!

.

[semperfidelis]

All the Nations will indeed be blessed and through Israel in the Kingdom. Israel will be as a nation of priests to God who will be seated on His Throne in their Capital Jerusalem.

And talk about your pecking order, ... and first class citizens, there will be requirements of the nations to send emissaries every year to Jerusalem and failure to give tribute will bring severe punishment to the nations who do not!

.

You do not see all the nations being blessed through Israel even now?

I agree that after Christs return Israel will be restored and will be the dominate nation and the centerpoint.

[blitzkreig]

You do not see all the nations being blessed through Israel even now? Nope.


Zec 12:2-3
(2) Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
(3) And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

[Timothy]

You do not see all the nations being blessed through Israel even now?

No, and the reason is the Israel is in a (temporarily) fallen, diminished, and blind state or status.

Romans 11:11-12 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

When the "fulness of the Gentiles" comes, the rapture will occur, and the prophetic kingdom program with Israel will once again resume. In the present dispensation of grace, there is no status difference amoung the nations, or between Jew and Gentile. There is only the body of Christ.

:):

[semperfidelis]

No, and the reason is the Israel is in a (temporarily) fallen, diminished, and blind state or status.

Romans 11:11-12 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

When the "fulness of the Gentiles" comes, the rapture will occur, and the prophetic kingdom program with Israel will once again resume. In the present dispensation of grace, there is no status difference amoung the nations, or between Jew and Gentile. There is only the body of Christ.

:):

So the prophetic clock for Israel resumes at the rapture? I do not remember daniels final week beginning with the rapture... :):

Also, Gentiles will be coming in until deep into the great period of distress. I think the prophetic program will resume before the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, but you are correct that it happens in connection with that.

Also, in reference to Israel blessing all the nations even now I do not think that their fallen state covers the covenants that God first formed with Israel through Abraham, Issac and Jacob. This blessing first flowed through Israel and into the other nations of the earth. God choose Israel to work through. That was my point.

BIG PICTURE implications with this, not just what is happening now or what will happen in the future in reference to Israel.

[Abiding in Him]

"When the "fulness of the Gentiles" comes, the rapture will occur and the prophetic kingdom program with Israil will once again resume."

OK - now I have a question?????

After the tribulation, will the Gentiles who become believers during the tribulation be a part of the Body of Christ (heavenly) or part of the kingdom earthly with Israel??

[blitzkreig]

Also, in reference to Israel blessing all the nations even now I do not think that their fallen state covers the covenants that God first formed with Israel through Abraham, Issac and Jacob. This blessing first flowed through Israel and into the other nations of the earth. God choose Israel to work through. That was my point. They sure weren't comin' in droves for the blessing. You can count on your fingers how many Gentiles came to know God through Israel in the Old Testament ...

.

[blitzkreig]

After the tribulation, will the Gentiles who become believers during the tribulation be a part of the Body of Christ (heavenly) or part of the kingdom earthly with Israel??Kingdom. There will be a judgement of those who remain on earth to establish who enters the Kingdom and who does not. It is often refered to as the "Sheep/Goats" Judgement ... The evaluation criteria seems to be their conduct during the awful time of the Tribulation and how they treated the Children of Israel.

Mat 25:31-46
(31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
(32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
(33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
(34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
(35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
(36) Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
(37) Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
(38) When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
(39) Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
(40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
(43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
(44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
(45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. After the thousand years of the Millenial Kingdom semperfidelis is quite correct we all end up in Eternity together in the same place ...

.

[blitzkreig]

So the prophetic clock for Israel resumes at the rapture? I do not remember daniels final week beginning with the rapture... :): They could be moments apart or seperated by many years. There is no milestones in Scripture from which to measure time in this period.

[Timothy]

So the prophetic clock for Israel resumes at the rapture? I do not remember daniels final week beginning with the rapture... :):

Semp, you are absolutely correct. That's because the rapture and the body of Christ were not prophesised. They are part of the mystery and were "kept secret since the world began." (Romans 16:25). God's plan for the ages was two-fold, he had a revealed purpose/plan (prophecy) and a hidden/secret purpose/plan (mystery).

OK - now I have a question?????

After the tribulation, will the Gentiles who become believers during the tribulation be a part of the Body of Christ (heavenly) or part of the kingdom earthly with Israel??

With the rapture comes the end of the the Body of Christ. In the prophetic kingdom, Israel will fulfil their prophetic role in becoming a "kingdom of priests" unto the nations.

[DownUnder]

The scriptures speak of three classes of people:
1 The Jews - Decendants of Abraham
2 The Church - Those who believe in Jesus Christ as being the Son of God, who died on the cross and rose again to pay the price for our sins. The Church consists of people from all nationalities tribes and kindreds
3 The Gentiles - Those who are not Jews and are not of the Church.

The Jews were chosen in Abraham from the foundation of the world Matt 25:34
While the Church was chosen in Christ BEFORE the foundation of the world Eph 1:4-6

The Jews are spoken of as the "Bride of Jehovah" Isa 54:5-8
The Church is spoken of as "The Bride of Christ" 2 Cor 11:2

I think that the Jews and the Church are different and as such are treated differently

[blitzkreig]

Hi DownUnder. Pleased to have you join us. :wave

[DownUnder]

Hi blitzkreig I have been watching for some time, but only recently decided to have a say.
I must say that I enjoy your comments, they have a tendency to stabilize the conversation somewhat :thumb

[Abiding in Him]

OK - so help me get this straight....
"We all end up in eternity "together" in the same place"
"The Jews and the Church are different and treated differently"

So.......we end up in the same place ...yet are different...???

Blitzkreig - would you respond to my Aug. 4th post???

Are we adopted or born???

[semperfidelis]

Nope.

OK.

[semperfidelis]

They sure weren't comin' in droves for the blessing. You can count on your fingers how many Gentiles came to know God through Israel in the Old Testament ...

.

Blitz, I was not aware that salvation was extended to the Gentiles before Christ? :confused

Also, what does that have to do with Israel being part of the blessings that are now open to us? God choose to work through Israel in the beginning and first formed the covenants that have been extended to Gentiles through Christ with Israel.

Not to mention the Woman gave birth to the child (God - Man) that would take away the sins of the world.

[semperfidelis]

Semp, you are absolutely correct. That's because the rapture and the body of Christ were not prophesised. They are part of the mystery and were "kept secret since the world began." (Romans 16:25). God's plan for the ages was two-fold, he had a revealed purpose/plan (prophecy) and a hidden/secret purpose/plan (mystery).

Tim, once the mystery was revealed it was no longer a mystery. The prophetic clock with Israel begins with the start of the tribulation period. That would be the first part of Daniel 9:27 and Revelation 6:1-2.

The rapture could happen months or weeks before the tribulation period begins. It has nothing to do with the prophetic clock for Israel actually starting other than to remove the restrainer.


With the rapture comes the end of the the Body of Christ. In the prophetic kingdom, Israel will fulfil their prophetic role in becoming a "kingdom of priests" unto the nations.

Not true. With the rapture comes the removal of spirit filled believers on the earth. Those that come to Christ after the fact will still be believers in Christ. Otherwise how would they be saved?

I do agree that Israel will be a nation during the Millenial Reign.

[semperfidelis]

They could be moments apart or seperated by many years. There is no milestones in Scripture from which to measure time in this period.

Blitz, you obviously did not catch my attempt at sarcasm in the post. I am well aware that the rapture is not the start of the prophetic time clock for Israel. I was attempting to show Timothy that the beginning of the prophetic week is linked to other things besides the rapture.

[blitzkreig]

Blitzkreig - would you respond to my Aug. 4th post???

Are we adopted or born???Both. Adoped to be born again.

Eph 1:5-6
(5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
(6) To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

[blitzkreig]

Blitz, I was not aware that salvation was extended to the Gentiles before Christ? :confused Is this a trick question? Hmmm... in the Old Testament what was salvation? Seriously ... what was salvation in the Old Testament? There were a few Gentiles who worshiped Israel's God in the Old Testament ...

Also, what does that have to do with Israel being part of the blessings that are now open to us? God choose to work through Israel in the beginning and first formed the covenants that have been extended to Gentiles through Christ with Israel. I do not believe that those who are members of the Body of Christ are recipients of the covenants ... The covenants are Israels. We of the Body have a whole different set of inheritance promises ...

Not to mention the Woman gave birth to the child (God - Man) that would take away the sins of the world.Now that is true in a way isn't it. But it certainly wasn't Israel blessing the Nations but God doing it in spite of Israel ...

[blitzkreig]

Blitz, you obviously did not catch my attempt at sarcasm in the post. Sometimes I am a poor catcher ... :B:

I am well aware that the rapture is not the start of the prophetic time clock for Israel. I was attempting to show Timothy that the beginning of the prophetic week is linked to other things besides the rapture.Brother Timothy is about as knowledgeable a person in Scripture as we have on this board ... :D:

[semperfidelis]

Is this a trick question? Hmmm... in the Old Testament what was salvation? Seriously ... what was salvation in the Old Testament? There were a few Gentiles who worshiped Israel's God in the Old Testament ...


The question is could they have worshiped God at that point. I was not aware that the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob was saving those outside of Israel at that point. He had chosen Israel to work through.

I thought that was the whole point of Christ to open up salvation to everyone, not just the first chosen.


I do not believe that those who are members of the Body of Christ are recipients of the covenants ... The covenants are Israels. We of the Body have a whole different set of inheritance promises ...


None of the covenant promises that came through Israel in the beginning carry over in the least to the body of Christ?

We receive no blessings through the Abrahamic Covenant?

I do agree that the Land and Davidic covenants can only be fulfilled through Israel, but I would think the promises of the Messiah to come from those covenants also are felt by the Church as we are also saved through Christ.

I certainly recognize Israels right to those covenants as still being in tact and not transferable. I was under the impression that through Christ we shared in some of those promises as we are grafted into the tree.


Now that is true in a way isn't it. But it certainly wasn't Israel blessing the Nations but God doing it in spite of Israel ...

But that is the point Blitz. Directly or indirectly, willingly or not Israel was used and we feel the effects of that. What has occured or happened in spite of themselves is beside the point.

[blitzkreig]

The question is could they have worshiped God at that point. I was not aware that the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob was saving those outside of Israel at that point. He had chosen Israel to work through.Ruth the Moabitess immediately comes to mind ... 1:16 And Ruth said, Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God

I thought that was the whole point of Christ to open up salvation to everyone, not just the first chosen. And that He certainly did ... no longer having to become a proselyte ...

None of the covenant promises that came through Israel in the beginning carry over in the least to the body of Christ?

We receive no blessings through the Abrahamic Covenant? From my studies no. None.

I do agree that the Land and Davidic covenants can only be fulfilled through Israel, but I would think the promises of the Messiah to come from those covenants also are felt by the Church as we are also saved through Christ. The promise was for a Messiah to reign as King ... that is yet to be fulfilled. We are not a part of promise ... indeed we are not a party to prophecy, but we were a "Mystery" ... hid in God not not know to the prophets.

Eph 3:2-9
(2) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
(3) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
(4) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
(5) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
(6) That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
(7) Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
(8) Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
(9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


I certainly recognize Israels right to those covenants as still being in tact and not transferable. I was under the impression that through Christ we shared in some of those promises as we are grafted into the tree. Our call is different and as I said before ... I believe higher. Not of the Covenants but of Mystery.

Now we do benefit from some of the Covenants ... but not as a party to the contract but as recipients of God's favour generally.

Let me just reapeat that for clarity. In as much as my son benefits from the contract I hold which is used to purchase my house ... as he gets to live in the house I bought ... he is not a party to the purchase contract. He does not have legal "privity" to the contract (covenant). Neither liability nor right of enjoyment. But use thereof ... because he lives with me and my wife.

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[semperfidelis]

Ruth the Moabitess immediately comes to mind ...

And that He certainly did ... no longer having to become a proselyte ...


Generally though outside of Israel Gentiles were not included. After Christ the entire world can now come through Christ to salvation.


From my studies no. None.

I think this would be an interesting debate. The Davidic covenant and the promise of the Messiah certainly has blessed us.


The promise was for a Messiah to reign as King ... that is yet to be fulfilled. We are not a part of promise ... indeed we are not a party to prophecy, but we were a "Mystery" ... hid in God not not know to the prophets.


But that does not mean that we are not blessed through the Messiah who was promised to come for both the Gentiles and the Jews.


Eph 3:2-9
(2) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
(3) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
(4) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
(5) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
(6) That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
(7) Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
(8) Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
(9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Our call is different and as I said before ... I believe higher. Not of the Covenants but of Mystery.


I do not see anything about a higher calling. We are broken sinners that cannot take a breath without Gods approval.

It just seems interesting to me that someone that is crouched in a corner broken and dying in sin without Christ would make a statement like that. A calling yes... Higher?

a high calling perhaps yes, but I think when we get into comparisons it leads to exaltation of self that can be traced to the root of vanity and pride.

I think on this we view things a bit differently. I try to be more humble. Perhaps my calling is high but if it is it is through Christ and Christ alone, he is what makes it high and he would be the one that would need to point that out, not me.


Now we do benefit from some of the Covenants ... but not as a party to the contract but as recipients of God's favour generally.


:confused Isn't this contradictory to what you just said. We either do or we do not.


Let me just reapeat that for clarity. In as much as my son benefits from the contract I hold which is used to purchase my house ... as he gets to live in the house I bought ... he is not a party to the purchase contract. He does not have legal "privity" to the contract (covenant). Neither liability nor right of enjoyment. But use thereof ... because he lives with me and my wife.


IT would seem to me that the true promises of contract blessing go to Israel. If anyone has the higher purpose it would be the first chosen. Through Israel comes the covenants, the birth of the Messiah and the blessings extended to us as we are GRAFTED in.

Just the birth of the God - Man Child alone is enough to show that Israel is part of blessings that we receive now.

[Timothy]

Tim, once the mystery was revealed it was no longer a mystery. The prophetic clock with Israel begins with the start of the tribulation period. That would be the first part of Daniel 9:27 and Revelation 6:1-2. The rapture could happen months or weeks before the tribulation period begins. It has nothing to do with the prophetic clock for Israel actually starting other than to remove the restrainer.

Hi Semp: Me thinks we are in agreement? Yes, the prophetic clock begins ticking at the tribulation. I had "simplified" my earlier comments. I, for one, think that there could be a gap between the rapture, and when the tribulation truly begins.

Not true. With the rapture comes the removal of spirit filled believers on the earth. Those that come to Christ after the fact will still be believers in Christ. Otherwise how would they be saved? I do agree that Israel will be a nation during the Millenial Reign.

IMHO, the key thing to remember is the mystery (revealed to the Apostle Paul) concerns the body of Christ. And the key thing about the body of Christ is that there is "no difference" between a Jew and Gentile, which is unique to the present dispensation of grace. Once this dispensation ends, and the prophetic program resumes, there will (once again) be a positional difference between Jew and Gentile. In the kingdom, Gentiles will (once again) approach God through Israel, and Israel will be a "kingdom of priests" to the nations (Zech. 8:13, 8:23, etc.).

[semperfidelis]

Hi Semp: Me thinks we are in agreement? Yes, the prophetic clock begins ticking at the tribulation. I had "simplified" my earlier comments. I, for one, think that there could be a gap between the rapture, and when the tribulation truly begins.


I figured you did. Just messing with you a little. I wrap off comments quickly sometimes to. I think what you meant is during that general timeframe it will conincide... The rapture could very well occur right before the beginning of the trib, no one knows for sure except God.



IMHO, the key thing to remember is the mystery (revealed to the Apostle Paul) concerns the body of Christ. And the key thing about the body of Christ is that there is "no difference" between a Jew and Gentile, which is unique to the present dispensation of grace. Once this dispensation ends, and the prophetic program resumes, there will (once again) be a positional difference between Jew and Gentile. In the kingdom, Gentiles will (once again) approach God through Israel, and Israel will be a "kingdom of priests" to the nations (Zech. 8:13, 8:23, etc.).

This is not exactly true right... Israel means Israel in reference to future prophecy and does not mean the Gentiles. I do agree that within the body of Christ there is no difference. Outside of that there is a difference.

Let me explain. There are prophecies concerning the Jews that occur during the Church Age. For example the destruction of the temple took place in the Church Age and that pertained to the Jews specifically. Same with the regathering in unbelief that we see in Zechariah and Ezekiel (valley of dry bones). Same Jews that will be set apart during the tribulation period until they come into the new covenant by recognizing the Messiah.

It is sort of complicated.

[blitzkreig]

.

Let me explain. There are prophecies concerning the Jews that occur during the Church Age. For example the destruction of the temple took place in the Church Age and that pertained to the Jews specifically. Same with the regathering in unbelief that we see in Zechariah and Ezekiel (valley of dry bones). Same Jews that will be set apart during the tribulation period until they come into the new covenant by recognizing the Messiah.

It is sort of complicated.I agree.

A "dispensation" is often confused as being solely a "time period". But as you point out some of these "matters of management in God's household" have no crisp time of start or stop. Some overlap. Some continue even though others have come and gone in the mean time.

Just for example we continue in what has been called the "Dispensation of Human Government" even today ... it started with the first King in Israel and will not cease until Christ returns to Rule Himself.

In the mean time there have been other "dispensations" come and go ...

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[semperfidelis]

I agree.

A "dispensation" is often confused as being solely a "time period". But as you point out some of these "matters of management in God's household" have no crisp time of start or stop. Some overlap. Some continue even though others have come and gone in the mean time.

Just for example we continue in what has been called the "Dispensation of Human Government" even today ... it started with the first King in Israel and will not cease until Christ returns to Rule Himself.

In the mean time there have been other "dispensations" come and go ...

.

You would be a good one to ask about this. I was under the impression that Old Testament prophets did not see the Church Age. Someone pointed out verses In Isaiah speaking about the Messiah being a light to the Gentiles.

I know generally the OT prophets did not concentrate on prophecies about the Church. Do you have any information on this?

[blitzkreig]

You would be a good one to ask about this. I was under the impression that Old Testament prophets did not see the Church Age. Someone pointed out verses In Isaiah speaking about the Messiah being a light to the Gentiles.

I know generally the OT prophets did not concentrate on prophecies about the Church. Do you have any information on this?semperfidelis the prophets often spoke of Christ. An would have mentioned the fact that Gentiles would be blessed through Israel. But Paul said that it was a secret hidden in God not made known to the prophets that Israel would be sidelined in favour of the Gentiles being delt with the same as individual Jews. No priests... Jesus is our Priest. No law of Moses ... we have the law of Christ.

I believe him. It was not a part of prophecy. It was a "mystery" ...

Eph 3:2-9
(2) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
(3) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
(4) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
(5) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
(6) That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
(7) Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
(8) Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
(9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ

.

[semperfidelis]

semperfidelis the prophets often spoke of Christ. An would have mentioned the fact that Gentiles would be blessed through Israel. But Paul said that it was a secret hidden in God not made known to the prophets that Israel would be sidelined in favour of the Gentiles being delt with the same as individual Jews. No priests... Jesus is our Priest. No law of Moses ... we have the law of Christ.

I believe him. It was not a part of prophecy. It was a "mystery" ...



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So they saw the fact that salvation would extend to the Gentiles through the Messiah, but they did not see the Church Age on the radar...