After we die, what then?

[kvermaak]

Hi, I have heard some people say that after we die physically, we go into some sort of "sleep" until the Rapture, hence the rising first of the dead in Christ.

Others say, when we die, we immediately go to Heaven.

If we go immediately to Heaven, then why are our empty bodies raptured? Do we "zoom" back to our bodies after being in Heaven?

If we don't go to Heaven, but rather stay "asleep", then is it safe to say that all Christians who have died thus far are not yet in Heaven? But they will be eventually (after the Rapture?)

Just need some clarification. Thanks, YSIC, Kim

[†MARANATHA†]

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

[blitzkreig]

I posted this a while ago but it is worth a reprise.

What Happens When You Die?

Soul Sleep or Conscious Existence?
by Dr. David R. Reagan


If several years ago you had asked me what happens when you die, I would have given you a pathetic answer. I would have told you that when you die your soul goes to sleep until the Lord returns. At the return of the Lord, your soul is resurrected and judged, and you are either consigned to Hell or allowed to enter Heaven.

My conception of Heaven was that of a spirit world where the saved spend eternity as disembodied spirits, floating around on clouds, playing harps.

A Mistaken View

Needless to say, I couldn't get very excited about all that. I sure didn't like the idea of being unconscious in the grave for eons of time. Nor could I develop any enthusiasm for the prospect of being a disembodied spirit with no particular identity or personality. And the idea of playing a harp for all eternity was downright scandalous, for I had been taught that instrumental music in worship was an abomination!

You can imagine, therefore, the sense of shock I felt when I started studying Bible prophecy and discovered that all these ideas of mine about life after death were foreign to God's Word. But my shock quickly gave way to exhilaration when I discovered what the Lord really has in store for me.

The Biblical View

I learned from God's Word that when those of us who are Christians die, our spirits never lose their consciousness (Phils. 1:23). Instead, our fully conscious spirits are immediately ushered into the presence of Jesus by His holy angels (2 Cor. 5:8).

Our spirits remain in the Lord's presence until He appears for His Church. At that time, He brings our spirits with Him, resurrects our bodies, reunites our spirits with our bodies, and then glorifies our bodies, perfecting them and rendering them eternal (1 Thess 4:13-18).

We return with Him to Heaven in our glorified bodies where we are judged for our works to determine our degrees of rewards (2 Cor. 5:10). When this judgment is completed, we participate in a glorious wedding feast to celebrate the union of Jesus and His Bride, the Church (Rev. 19:7-9).

Witnesses of Glory

At the conclusion of the feast, we burst from the heavens with Jesus, returning with Him to the earth in glory (Rev. 19:14). We witness His victory at Armageddon, we shout "Hallelujah!" as He is crowned King of kings and Lord of lords, and we revel in His glory as He begins to reign over all the earth from Mt. Zion in Jerusalem (Zech. 14:1-9; Rev. 19:17-21).

For a thousand years we participate in that reign, assisting Him with the instruction, administration, and enforcement of His perfect laws (Rev. 20:1-6). We see the earth regenerated and nature reconciled (Isa. 11:6-9). We see holiness abound and the earth flooded with peace, righteousness and justice (Micah 4:1-7).

At the end of the Millennium we witness the release of Satan to deceive the nations. We see the truly despicable nature of the heart of Man as millions rally to Satan in his attempt to overthrow the throne of Jesus. But we will shout "Hallelujah!" again when we witness God's supernatural destruction of Satan's armies and see Satan himself cast into Hell where he will be tormented forever (Rev. 20:7-10).

We will next witness the Great White Throne Judgment when the unrighteous are resurrected to stand before God. We will see perfect holiness and justice in action as God pronounces His terrible judgment upon this congregation of the damned who have rejected His gift of love and mercy in Jesus Christ (Rev. 20:11-13).

Jesus will be fully vindicated as every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord. Then the unrighteous will receive their just reward as they are cast into Hell (Rev. 20:14-15).

Witnesses of a New Creation

We will then witness the most spectacular fireworks display in all of history. We will be taken to the New Jerusalem, the eternal mansion prepared by Jesus for His Bride, and from there we will watch as God renovates this earth with fire, burning away all the filth and pollution left by Satan's last battle (2 Peter 3:12-13).

Just as the angels rejoiced when God created the universe, we will rejoice as we watch God superheat this earth and reshape it like a hot ball of wax into the New Earth, the eternal earth, the paradise where we will live forever in the presence of God (Rev. 21:1).

What a glorious moment it will be when we are lowered to the New Earth inside the fabulous New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:2). God will come down from Heaven to dwell with us (Rev. 21:3). He will proclaim: "Behold, I make all things new" (Rev. 21:5) We will see God face to face (Rev. 22:4). He will wipe away all our tears (Rev. 21:4). Death will be no more (Rev. 21:4). We will be given new names (Rev. 2:17), and we will exist as individual personalities encased in perfect bodies (Phils. 3:21). And we will grow eternally in knowledge and love of our infinite Creator, honoring Him with our talents and gifts.

Now, I can get excited about that!

The Word vs. Tradition

Isn't it amazing how far we can drift away from the Word of God when we stop reading His Word and start mouthing the traditions of men?

As I kept making one discovery after another in God's Prophetic Word that ran contrary to what I had been taught, I began to wonder about the origin of the doctrines I had learned. It didn't take me long to discover that the source was Greek philosophy.

The first attempt to mix the concepts of Greek philosophy with the teachings of God's Word came very early in the history of the Church. The attempt was called Gnosticism. The Gnostic heresy arose among the first Gentile converts because they tried to Hellenize the Scriptures; that is, they tried to make the Scriptures conform to the basic tenets of Greek philosophy.

The Greeks believed that the material universe, including the human body, was evil. This negative view of the creation was diametrically opposed to Hebrew thought, as revealed in the Bible. To the Hebrew mind, the world was created good (Genesis 1:31). And even though the goodness of the creation was corrupted by the sin of Man (Isaiah 24:5-6), the creation still reflects to some degree the glory of God (Psalms 19:1). Most important, the creation will someday be redeemed by God (Romans 8:18-23).

The Gnostic Heresy

When the first Gentiles were converted to the Gospel, their Greek-mind set immediately collided with some of the fundamental teachings of Christianity. For example, they wondered, "How could Jesus have come in the flesh if He was God? God is holy. How can He who is holy be encased in a body which is evil?"

In short, because they viewed the material universe as evil, they could not accept the Bible's teaching that God became incarnate in the flesh. Their response was to develop the Gnostic heresy that Jesus was a spirit being or phantom who never took on the flesh and therefore never experienced physical death.

This heresy is denounced strongly in Scripture. In 1 John 4:1-2 we are told to test those who seek our spiritual fellowship by asking them to confess "that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh."

The Augustinian Corruption

About 400 A.D. a remarkable theologian by the name of St. Augustine attempted to Hellenize what the Scriptures taught about end time events and life after death. Augustine was very successful in his attempt. His views were adopted by the Council of Ephesus in 431 A.D. and have remained Catholic dogma to this day.

The influence of Greek philosophy would not allow Augustine to accept what the Bible taught about life after death.

For example, the Bible says the saints will spend eternity in glorified bodies on a New Earth (Revelation 21:1-7). Such a concept was anathema to the Greek mind of Augustine. If the material world is evil, then he reasoned that the material world must cease to exist when the Lord returns. Augustine solved the problem by spiritualizing what the Bible said. He did this by arguing that the "new earth" of Revelation 21 is just symbolic language for Heaven.

Augustine's views are held by most professing Christians today, both Catholic and Protestant. That means that most of Christianity today teaches Greek philosophy rather than the Word of God when it comes to the realm of end time prophecy and life after death.

The Intermediate State

Some of the greatest confusion about life after death relates to the intermediate state between death and eternity. Some people advocate a concept called "soul sleep." They argue that both the saved and unsaved are unconscious after death until the return of Jesus.

But the Bible makes it crystal clear that our spirit does not lose its consciousness at death. The only thing that "falls asleep" is our body — in a symbolic sense. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:8 that he would prefer to be "absent from the body and at home with the Lord." In Philippians 1:21 he observes, "For me to live is Christ and to die is gain." He then adds in verse 23 that his desire is "to depart and be with Christ." Paul certainly did not expect to be in a coma after he died!

If then our spirits retain their consciousness after death, where do they go? The Bible teaches that prior to the resurrection of Jesus, the spirits of the dead went to a place called Hades ("Sheol" in the Old Testament). The spirits existed there consciously in one of two compartments, either Paradise or Torments. This concept is pictured graphically in Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31).

The Bible indicates that after the death of Jesus on the Cross, He descended into Hades and declared to all the spirits there His triumph over Satan (1 Peter 3:18-19; 4:6). The Bible also indicates that after His resurrection, when He ascended into Heaven, Jesus took Paradise with Him, transferring the spirits of dead saints from Hades to Heaven (Ephesians 4:8-9 and 2 Corinthians 12:1-4). The spirits of dead saints are thereafter pictured as being in Heaven before the throne of God (See Revelation 6:9 and 7:9).

The spirits of the righteous dead could not go directly to Heaven before the Cross because their sins were not forgiven. Instead, their sins were merely covered by their faith. The forgiveness of their sins had to await the shedding of the blood of Christ (Leviticus 17:11; Romans 5:8-9; Hebrews 9:22).

Events at Death

So, what happens when you die? If you are a child of God, your spirit is immediately ushered into the bosom of Jesus by His holy angels. Your spirit remains in Heaven, in the presence of God, until the time of the Rapture. When Jesus comes for His Church, He brings your spirit with Him, resurrects and glorifies your body, making it eternal in nature (1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4). You reign with Christ for a thousand years and then live eternally with Him on the new earth (Revelation 20-22).

If you are not a child of God, then your spirit goes to Hades at your death. This is a place of torments where your spirit is held until the resurrection of the unrighteous which takes place at the end of the millennial reign of Jesus. At that resurrection you are taken before the Great White Throne of God where you are judged by your works and then condemned to the "second death," which is the "lake of fire" or Hell (Revelation 20:11-15).

Preparing for Eternity

One thing is certain: "Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that 'Jesus is Lord!'" (Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11). Your eternal destiny will be determined by when you make this confession.

If it is made before you die, then you will spend eternity with God. If not, then you will make the confession at the Great White Throne judgment before you are cast into Hell. To spend eternity with God, your confession of Jesus as Lord must be made now.

"If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved"
— Romans 10:9

http://home.flash.net/~carlton2/whenyou.htm

.

[LivnForChrist]

Excellent post Blitz

[kvermaak]

Thank you - so apparently we do a bit of travelling with the Rapture. Assuming we have already died in Christ - we leave Heaven, pick up our newly resurrected bodies, then go back to Heaven with Jesus...OK by me.:):

[DJHere]

I posted this a while ago but it is worth a reprise.

What Happens When You Die?

Soul Sleep or Conscious Existence?
by Dr. David R. Reagan


If several years ago you had asked me what happens when you die, I would have given you a pathetic answer. I would have told you that when you die your soul goes to sleep until the Lord returns. At the return of the Lord, your soul is resurrected and judged, and you are either consigned to Hell or allowed to enter Heaven.

My conception of Heaven was that of a spirit world where the saved spend eternity as disembodied spirits, floating around on clouds, playing harps.

A Mistaken View

Needless to say, I couldn't get very excited about all that. I sure didn't like the idea of being unconscious in the grave for eons of time. Nor could I develop any enthusiasm for the prospect of being a disembodied spirit with no particular identity or personality. And the idea of playing a harp for all eternity was downright scandalous, for I had been taught that instrumental music in worship was an abomination!

You can imagine, therefore, the sense of shock I felt when I started studying Bible prophecy and discovered that all these ideas of mine about life after death were foreign to God's Word. But my shock quickly gave way to exhilaration when I discovered what the Lord really has in store for me.

The Biblical View

I learned from God's Word that when those of us who are Christians die, our spirits never lose their consciousness (Phils. 1:23). Instead, our fully conscious spirits are immediately ushered into the presence of Jesus by His holy angels (2 Cor. 5:8).

Our spirits remain in the Lord's presence until He appears for His Church. At that time, He brings our spirits with Him, resurrects our bodies, reunites our spirits with our bodies, and then glorifies our bodies, perfecting them and rendering them eternal (1 Thess 4:13-18).

We return with Him to Heaven in our glorified bodies where we are judged for our works to determine our degrees of rewards (2 Cor. 5:10). When this judgment is completed, we participate in a glorious wedding feast to celebrate the union of Jesus and His Bride, the Church (Rev. 19:7-9).

Witnesses of Glory

At the conclusion of the feast, we burst from the heavens with Jesus, returning with Him to the earth in glory (Rev. 19:14). We witness His victory at Armageddon, we shout "Hallelujah!" as He is crowned King of kings and Lord of lords, and we revel in His glory as He begins to reign over all the earth from Mt. Zion in Jerusalem (Zech. 14:1-9; Rev. 19:17-21).

For a thousand years we participate in that reign, assisting Him with the instruction, administration, and enforcement of His perfect laws (Rev. 20:1-6). We see the earth regenerated and nature reconciled (Isa. 11:6-9). We see holiness abound and the earth flooded with peace, righteousness and justice (Micah 4:1-7).

At the end of the Millennium we witness the release of Satan to deceive the nations. We see the truly despicable nature of the heart of Man as millions rally to Satan in his attempt to overthrow the throne of Jesus. But we will shout "Hallelujah!" again when we witness God's supernatural destruction of Satan's armies and see Satan himself cast into Hell where he will be tormented forever (Rev. 20:7-10).

We will next witness the Great White Throne Judgment when the unrighteous are resurrected to stand before God. We will see perfect holiness and justice in action as God pronounces His terrible judgment upon this congregation of the damned who have rejected His gift of love and mercy in Jesus Christ (Rev. 20:11-13).

Jesus will be fully vindicated as every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord. Then the unrighteous will receive their just reward as they are cast into Hell (Rev. 20:14-15).

Witnesses of a New Creation

We will then witness the most spectacular fireworks display in all of history. We will be taken to the New Jerusalem, the eternal mansion prepared by Jesus for His Bride, and from there we will watch as God renovates this earth with fire, burning away all the filth and pollution left by Satan's last battle (2 Peter 3:12-13).

Just as the angels rejoiced when God created the universe, we will rejoice as we watch God superheat this earth and reshape it like a hot ball of wax into the New Earth, the eternal earth, the paradise where we will live forever in the presence of God (Rev. 21:1).

What a glorious moment it will be when we are lowered to the New Earth inside the fabulous New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:2). God will come down from Heaven to dwell with us (Rev. 21:3). He will proclaim: "Behold, I make all things new" (Rev. 21:5) We will see God face to face (Rev. 22:4). He will wipe away all our tears (Rev. 21:4). Death will be no more (Rev. 21:4). We will be given new names (Rev. 2:17), and we will exist as individual personalities encased in perfect bodies (Phils. 3:21). And we will grow eternally in knowledge and love of our infinite Creator, honoring Him with our talents and gifts.

Now, I can get excited about that!

The Word vs. Tradition

Isn't it amazing how far we can drift away from the Word of God when we stop reading His Word and start mouthing the traditions of men?

As I kept making one discovery after another in God's Prophetic Word that ran contrary to what I had been taught, I began to wonder about the origin of the doctrines I had learned. It didn't take me long to discover that the source was Greek philosophy.

The first attempt to mix the concepts of Greek philosophy with the teachings of God's Word came very early in the history of the Church. The attempt was called Gnosticism. The Gnostic heresy arose among the first Gentile converts because they tried to Hellenize the Scriptures; that is, they tried to make the Scriptures conform to the basic tenets of Greek philosophy.

The Greeks believed that the material universe, including the human body, was evil. This negative view of the creation was diametrically opposed to Hebrew thought, as revealed in the Bible. To the Hebrew mind, the world was created good (Genesis 1:31). And even though the goodness of the creation was corrupted by the sin of Man (Isaiah 24:5-6), the creation still reflects to some degree the glory of God (Psalms 19:1). Most important, the creation will someday be redeemed by God (Romans 8:18-23).

The Gnostic Heresy

When the first Gentiles were converted to the Gospel, their Greek-mind set immediately collided with some of the fundamental teachings of Christianity. For example, they wondered, "How could Jesus have come in the flesh if He was God? God is holy. How can He who is holy be encased in a body which is evil?"

In short, because they viewed the material universe as evil, they could not accept the Bible's teaching that God became incarnate in the flesh. Their response was to develop the Gnostic heresy that Jesus was a spirit being or phantom who never took on the flesh and therefore never experienced physical death.

This heresy is denounced strongly in Scripture. In 1 John 4:1-2 we are told to test those who seek our spiritual fellowship by asking them to confess "that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh."

The Augustinian Corruption

About 400 A.D. a remarkable theologian by the name of St. Augustine attempted to Hellenize what the Scriptures taught about end time events and life after death. Augustine was very successful in his attempt. His views were adopted by the Council of Ephesus in 431 A.D. and have remained Catholic dogma to this day.

The influence of Greek philosophy would not allow Augustine to accept what the Bible taught about life after death.

For example, the Bible says the saints will spend eternity in glorified bodies on a New Earth (Revelation 21:1-7). Such a concept was anathema to the Greek mind of Augustine. If the material world is evil, then he reasoned that the material world must cease to exist when the Lord returns. Augustine solved the problem by spiritualizing what the Bible said. He did this by arguing that the "new earth" of Revelation 21 is just symbolic language for Heaven.

Augustine's views are held by most professing Christians today, both Catholic and Protestant. That means that most of Christianity today teaches Greek philosophy rather than the Word of God when it comes to the realm of end time prophecy and life after death.

The Intermediate State

Some of the greatest confusion about life after death relates to the intermediate state between death and eternity. Some people advocate a concept called "soul sleep." They argue that both the saved and unsaved are unconscious after death until the return of Jesus.

But the Bible makes it crystal clear that our spirit does not lose its consciousness at death. The only thing that "falls asleep" is our body — in a symbolic sense. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:8 that he would prefer to be "absent from the body and at home with the Lord." In Philippians 1:21 he observes, "For me to live is Christ and to die is gain." He then adds in verse 23 that his desire is "to depart and be with Christ." Paul certainly did not expect to be in a coma after he died!

If then our spirits retain their consciousness after death, where do they go? The Bible teaches that prior to the resurrection of Jesus, the spirits of the dead went to a place called Hades ("Sheol" in the Old Testament). The spirits existed there consciously in one of two compartments, either Paradise or Torments. This concept is pictured graphically in Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31).

The Bible indicates that after the death of Jesus on the Cross, He descended into Hades and declared to all the spirits there His triumph over Satan (1 Peter 3:18-19; 4:6). The Bible also indicates that after His resurrection, when He ascended into Heaven, Jesus took Paradise with Him, transferring the spirits of dead saints from Hades to Heaven (Ephesians 4:8-9 and 2 Corinthians 12:1-4). The spirits of dead saints are thereafter pictured as being in Heaven before the throne of God (See Revelation 6:9 and 7:9).

The spirits of the righteous dead could not go directly to Heaven before the Cross because their sins were not forgiven. Instead, their sins were merely covered by their faith. The forgiveness of their sins had to await the shedding of the blood of Christ (Leviticus 17:11; Romans 5:8-9; Hebrews 9:22).

Events at Death

So, what happens when you die? If you are a child of God, your spirit is immediately ushered into the bosom of Jesus by His holy angels. Your spirit remains in Heaven, in the presence of God, until the time of the Rapture. When Jesus comes for His Church, He brings your spirit with Him, resurrects and glorifies your body, making it eternal in nature (1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4). You reign with Christ for a thousand years and then live eternally with Him on the new earth (Revelation 20-22).

If you are not a child of God, then your spirit goes to Hades at your death. This is a place of torments where your spirit is held until the resurrection of the unrighteous which takes place at the end of the millennial reign of Jesus. At that resurrection you are taken before the Great White Throne of God where you are judged by your works and then condemned to the "second death," which is the "lake of fire" or Hell (Revelation 20:11-15).

Preparing for Eternity

One thing is certain: "Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that 'Jesus is Lord!'" (Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11). Your eternal destiny will be determined by when you make this confession.

If it is made before you die, then you will spend eternity with God. If not, then you will make the confession at the Great White Throne judgment before you are cast into Hell. To spend eternity with God, your confession of Jesus as Lord must be made now.

"If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved"
— Romans 10:9

http://home.flash.net/~carlton2/whenyou.htm

.

Great post :thumb

[PlentyGroovy]

Good article. Now I wonder about the souls that waited in Hades for Jesus' crucifixtion. How was there fate decided? If Jesus hadn't existed in a physical body prior, they couldn't have accepted or rejected Him as we do after His appearance. What happens to the prior-to-Jesus souls and on what basis is their eternal welfare decided?

[JLM-223]

Hi, I have heard some people say that after we die physically, we go into some sort of "sleep" until the Rapture, hence the rising first of the dead in Christ.

Others say, when we die, we immediately go to Heaven.

If we go immediately to Heaven, then why are our empty bodies raptured? Do we "zoom" back to our bodies after being in Heaven?

If we don't go to Heaven, but rather stay "asleep", then is it safe to say that all Christians who have died thus far are not yet in Heaven? But they will be eventually (after the Rapture?)

Just need some clarification. Thanks, YSIC, Kim
This is a question that has been argued by Christians for centuries, and I’m not sure anyone knows the answer for sure. Here’s how I see it. I believe that when one dies, they are immediately transported across space and time directly to the resurrection (first or second resurrection depending whether or not they're saved), so that from their perspective, there is no time lapse between death and resurrection (and thus no “intermediate state” or “purgatory” or anything like that). For this reason, Christ was able to tell the thief who hung on the cross next to him, "Today you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). From that man's perspective, the moment he died was the moment he was resurrected. However, from an outsider's perspective, hundreds of years may pass between the death and resurrection of that person. Consider the death of Lazarus where Martha told Jesus she knew he would be resurrected on the "last day" (John 11:24). From Martha's perspective, Lazarus would not come back to life until the resurrection of saints at the end of the age. At least that would have been the case, but Christ of course had other plans for Lazarus at that moment!

I know all this sounds a bit bizarre, but I think based on what scriptures tell us, this is the concept that best explains what will happen to us between our death and resurrection (assuming of course we're not alive when Christ returns).

[Werner]

I'm not sure you can find any Scripture to support the warping of time and space so that all the righteous who die "get there" at the same time. In fact, I think Revelation, with the different groups, one waiting for the other to be killed as they were, shows us that there is still a correlation to the time as it passes on Earth with events in Heaven.

"Paradise" did not always equal being in Heaven and the presence of God... At one point, before Christ led them to Heaven, it was in a separate area where all the dead went.

I've heard Chuck Missler speak on this a few times, and while it is fascinating and a product of our current understanding of the possibilities within space-time I don't see any evidence for it in Scripture (yet).

There is a definite sense of progression in all things throughout the Bible, IMHO.

:wave

[HiLaReE320]

I have always been fascinated with the concept of death (I guess we all have, in some part). The Bible doesn't say a whole lot, and is rarely direct in addressing the issue of, you know, "the minute after you die, what happens". Most of our spirits time will be spent outside of this body anyway, so you would think it would say more. That's why I too agree with JLM, for the most part.

I mean, think about it... There is no time as we know it on earth in Heaven. If there was, then Paul and all the early Christians have been there for thousands of years, just waiting for the resurrection.

But if we DO go to an "Intermediate Heaven", what exactly do we DO there? And if only our spirits are floating around without our bodies (since they are still on earth), how is it any kind of physical state? How could we walk, talk, etc without our bodies?

What will we be doing with Jesus, exactly right after we die?? Just shootin' the breeze until the rapture?

[Werner]

I think time still passes in Heaven... Much like it does here.

What has everyone been doing in Heaven? Watching things on Earth, praising and worshiping God, learning and growing, welcoming those who die and are brought to Heaven (this happens 24/7), preparing for things to come... There could be lots of things they can do. We won't be spending most of our time outside a body. We are given new bodies that will last us for Eternity. We were created to have bodies and interact with the Creation that God made for us to dwell in.

While there is time in Heaven, I don't think it is perceived in the same manner it is here on Earth. Down here we divide time into minute increments and are basically in bondage to time (time is definitely the enemy of any unbeliever). In Heaven I believe that time is just another piece of the puzzle for keeping things in order and motion, and it's not something people dwell on like we do. They don't necessarily watch the clock wondering "when" this or "when" that. They just "do" and will "do" until it's time for something else to be "done".

If that makes any sense. :lol

God being outside of time is not the same as Heaven being outside time. Heaven is part of His Creation. If there were no Heaven, there would still be God. Heaven, being part of the Creation, is locked within time like any other part of Creation. God is the only one that sees the end from the beginning, and is outside of time, while being able to move within time...

IMHO :hug

It is one of those subjects that I also find fascinating and hope to better understand shortly after I hear a certain Trumpet Blast. :lol

[engrmatt]

I think before anyone goes worrying about what we will do when our souls are in Heaven with the Lord, we need to realize that Heaven is absolutely nothing like what we think it probably is. When people worry about whether they will be able to walk, talk, laugh, play, run, etc. in Heaven, you need to realize that those actions/emotions are things we know here on earth. While I am not saying that we won't do those things (I have no idea too), I think we need to understand that God left out a lot of detail about Heaven intentionally. Who knows why, maybe because we'd only want to get there quicker, or ask too many questions (I know that'd be me for sure), or we would become TOO heavenly minded to be of any good to witness.

The point is, Heaven is better than anything we could possibly try to fathom. Maybe God didn't say a lot about it because he wanted to surprise us a little. Think of His joy when He sees the looks on our faces, and sees the joy in us as we enter into His kingdom. I know I like to surprise my wife when I get her things, and I'll tell her just enough about it to make her want to know what it is that much more. God might be doing this with us. Think about it, Jesus goes and prepares a place, and He doesn't say a lot in the Bible about it because it will spoil the surprise. He tells us as much as we need to know to witness and such, but beyond that, He's waiting to surprise us I think. Eternity with our Lord would be enough if we just get to sit and talk with Him forever. But thats not how it will be. We'll be able to have that personal, face-to-face relationship that none of us are worthy of right now. That is amazing to me!

[A_AmericanSaint]

This sounds kinda strange, but I'm in the middle of reading a book, 90 Minutes in Heaven, by Don Piper (a pastor), who was killed in an audo accident (for ninty minutes) and came back to life after a pastor friend prayed for him (the story is much more intricate than that, but for the sake of being brief that's all I'll say). The book is basically a story of hope and about his experiences in heaven. It's pretty good. Hard to read at parts because he goes on to talk about his experiences of withdraw from being in the presence of glory and the anguish he experienced during his rehab, but a good book nonetheless. I'd recommend it. I think it sells at any christian bookstore for about 10US.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0800759494/qid=1123006719/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-3447167-8983921

Saint

[LaMontre]

Good article. Now I wonder about the souls that waited in Hades for Jesus' crucifixtion. How was there fate decided? If Jesus hadn't existed in a physical body prior, they couldn't have accepted or rejected Him as we do after His appearance. What happens to the prior-to-Jesus souls and on what basis is their eternal welfare decided?

According to what some refer to as a "parable" (I disagree) in Luke 16, they waited in a "roped off" section of hell which Jesus called Abrahams bosom. It was a place where you could see those suffering the penalty of hell, and they could see you too, and could apparently talk with you as well?

[PlentyGroovy]

According to what some refer to as a "parable" (I disagree) in Luke 16, they waited in a "roped off" section of hell which Jesus called Abrahams bosom. It was a place where you could see those suffering the penalty of hell, and they could see you too, and could apparently talk with you as well?

That's true the rich guy in Hades could see Lazarus in paradise. But why were they in their respective places? What was the deciding factor??? I don't know if anyone has the answer but I'm sure I'll find out someday...:):

[Petezzzz]

Great post :thumb

DJ
Why do you quote a 3 page article only to write great post? Please use the POST REPLY button at the bottom! It's very annoying.

[FollowTheLamb]

"And as it it appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment" (Heb. 9:27). Many people look forward to the rapture or being with Jesus without realizing that there will be a judgment involved. The judgment is almost never mentioned in end-times books I've read (and I've read many). One popular book on the end times by the Left Behind authors spends only one page on the judgment.

I decided to go through the NT and see exactly what is said about judgment. There are hundreds of passages--some of the most practical passages I have ever read on getting ready for Christ's return. My study has changed my life. There will be an accounting of our lives. The Lord will not be interested on how well we defended our version of the rapture, but how we had a faith that works in love. For more on this view, see my free ebook. All of my life is preparation to stand before my Lord in love, that I may give a good account and give Him reason to tell me, "Well done, good and faithful servant." (There's a practical verse on the judgment! So what do you need to do to hear those words spoken by Christ? Are you a servant, or selfish? Are you faithful to Him with the task He gave you?)

[LaMontre]

"And as it it appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment" (Heb. 9:27). Many people look forward to the rapture or being with Jesus without realizing that there will be a judgment involved. The judgment is almost never mentioned in end-times books I've read (and I've read many). One popular book on the end times by the Left Behind authors spends only one page on the judgment.

I decided to go through the NT and see exactly what is said about judgment. There are hundreds of passages--some of the most practical passages I have ever read on getting ready for Christ's return. My study has changed my life. There will be an accounting of our lives. The Lord will not be interested on how well we defended our version of the rapture, but how we had a faith that works in love. For more on this view, see my free ebook. All of my life is preparation to stand before my Lord in love, that I may give a good account and give Him reason to tell me, "Well done, good and faithful servant." (There's a practical verse on the judgment! So what do you need to do to hear those words spoken by Christ? Are you a servant, or selfish? Are you faithful to Him with the task He gave you?)


1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

:thumb

[LaMontre]

That's true the rich guy in Hades could see Lazarus in paradise. But why were they in their respective places? What was the deciding factor??? I don't know if anyone has the answer but I'm sure I'll find out someday...:):

I assume you mean how did God determine their worthiness?

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

[FollowTheLamb]

Here's the answer I posted in my YahooGroups board:

“A Responsive Heart”

“And being in torments in Hades, he [a rich man] lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’

“But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us’ ” (Luke 16:23-26).

If we believe in “once saved, always saved,” this passage is an easy one to interpret--Abraham and Lazarus were saved, and the rich man wasn’t. Abraham, though, doesn’t use salvational terms, but justice, to explain their positions in Hades. “Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.” Whatever was fair or unfair was evened out in the next life. The rich man enjoyed all the luxuries of the rich class in life; now he was tormented. Lazarus was a beggar suffering daily outside Lazarus’s gate, hoping for crumbs from his table while unclean dogs licked his sores. In Abraham’s bosom, he received the comfort he was denied in life.

Is simple justice the principle God used to place them where they were? Would that principle still be valid today and strike fear in our hearts?

For more light on the matter, it is helpful to backtrack and see what prompted Jesus to give this story. Insight comes with context. Just a few minutes before, Jesus had finished telling the Pharisees how important it was to be trustworthy in the unrighteous mammon, saying, “if you have not been faithful in what is another man’s, who will give you what is your own?” (16:12). Also, “make friends for yourselves by unrighteous mammon, that when you fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations” (16:9).

The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, took the lessons personally, and ridiculed Jesus. (If you can’t attack the argument, attack the person.) They dismissed the idea that God condemns their way of life. So Jesus told them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God. The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it” (16:15-16). He then told the story of the rich man.

So the rich man represented the Pharisees, who loved money and feasted with their friends regularly, unmindful of the day they must give accounts as servants of God. It is easy to justify our lifestyles “when everyone is doing it.” So it was with the Pharisees and their devotion to comfort and luxury. They felt their time and money was theirs to use as they pleased. While they pressed after wealth and luxury, others were pressing into the kingdom of God.

The Pharisees did not approach God as their Lord and Master. Their master was Mammon, the god of wealth. Our master is whatever fills our thoughts, plans, and checkbooks. If we are led by money more than the Spirit, which compartment will we be fit for?

The story is not finished, however. In verses 27-31 the rich man and Abraham continue speaking. The rich man asks Abraham to send someone to tell his brothers about this place of torment. Abraham said, “They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.”

The rich man said, “No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.”

Abraham said, “If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.”


Is it possible that we may hear the Word of God often and yet remain unrepentant in face of the coming judgment? While the Pharisees played sand castles with their money, they were oblivious to the tsunami of judgment towering above them. If we cannot respond to the written words of the prophets God sent to warn us, can we really hear the One who rose from the dead--who came to deliver us from the wrath to come?

Living with the end in view means to respond to the warnings in Scripture.

Prayer focus:
Let the Spirit convict your heart through the Scriptures and other people.
Take steps of repentance instead of simply admitting sin.
If you argue over money a lot with your spouse, resolve to pray together over finances instead, and learn to trust the Lord together.